0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues

0:03

and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just

0:03

the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

0:10

Did we lose a patient?

0:11

No, that's just my lunch.

0:15

Hey,

0:17

thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James.

0:17

And we're going to do something a bit different

0:24

today. We're going to answer some questions

0:24

posed to us by you, our faithful listeners.

0:29

Yeah, what I like

0:32

about these Q&A sessions that we've been doing

0:32

on and off is that some of them are fantastic,

0:39

direct questions that we've received from LinkedIn

0:39

or email, and others represent conversations that

0:45

we've had with people who have followed up

0:45

with us after listening to the podcast. So

0:50

it's really a great opportunity for us to

0:50

engage with people, ask, answer questions,

0:55

hear what they're thinking. So please continue to

0:55

reach out to us if you've enjoyed the podcast and

1:03

want to explore these concepts in more detail. We,

1:03

as you've probably figured out, we like to talk.

1:10

Absolutely. I very much enjoy these too, because like,

1:13

you know, these are, again, great. Again,

1:18

these are more questions are kind of a

1:18

reflection of great conversations we've

1:23

been having that we want to be able to explore

1:23

kind of, you know, through this. So I do think

1:28

that it's great that we're trying to bring stuff

1:28

that's topical in front of mind for people. So I

1:33

always enjoyed this as well. All right, but let's

1:33

stop yammering. Let's jump in. So I'll ask you the

1:39

first question, James. Okay, sure.

1:42

So, James, why do many

1:42

recognition programs fall short?

1:47

Yeah, really? I think the biggest

1:51

reason is because companies are really trying

1:51

to find that one, or maybe to boxed programs

1:59

that will fulfill the needs of their employees to

1:59

feel recognized for their work. I mentioned in a

2:06

previous episode, actually, about a manufacturing

2:06

client who had implemented a new recognition

2:12

program. Employees and managers could nominate

2:12

people to receive a gift card. And I mean,

2:18

even though the gift cards were like $50, up to

2:18

$100, depending on what it was, they were still,

2:25

they were getting less than 20% of their employees

2:25

actually participating in the program. And it was

2:31

a major, it was a big shock and a major challenge

2:31

for them. And we've seen other programs that are

2:37

focused on a point system where employees

2:37

can earn points for doing different things.

2:43

So in lieu of actually showing people that you appreciate them,

2:44

you're going to give them a point so that they

2:48

can buy something useless from your company

2:48

store or. That's a little unfair. But again,

2:55

these programs are not having a significant

2:55

impact and the problem is that even though,

3:02

you know, these are well intentioned, they

3:02

are developed as a way to show appreciation

3:09

and recognition to employees, but they fall short

3:09

because they focus on showing recognition in only

3:18

one manner. And although a lot of recognition

3:18

programs have gotten so much better at showing

3:24

recognition in a timely manner and are even

3:24

developed from an authentic standpoint,

3:31

they still miss that crucial element of is

3:31

this appreciable? Are we showing recognition

3:39

in a way that people actually appreciate

3:39

and understand that communication style?

3:47

And I mean, and so the episode

3:49

that you or that we talked about recognition,

3:49

and that example was the episode what makes

3:55

employee engagement actually work. So if this

3:55

is of interest to, you, feel free to check that

3:58

I am glad you can actually remember what the

4:00

episode. I just know I rant about stuff.

4:04

But, yeah, in that episode we definitely talked

4:04

about the key to recognition is you understand

4:09

that recognition has to be timely, authentic,

4:09

and appreciable. And if it's not hitting those

4:16

three things, then it's likely not hitting its

4:16

mark. But aside from that, those three things

4:23

are really important for everyone to just consider

4:23

while they're trying to decide any kind of form

4:29

of recognition. Those three things are important,

4:29

whether it's personal recognition, organizational

4:33

recognition, or whatever. But separate from

4:33

that is the point that you were saying that

4:37

they're trying to all give people stuff. And

4:37

largely, you're right, a lot of programs, a lot

4:45

of recognition kind of, you know, box programs or

4:45

even a lot of the recognition programs that kind

4:53

of come from, like, you know, big award events

4:53

and stuff like that are usually very heavy on the

5:01

giving people something, you know, that those, you

5:01

know, gifts or whatever it is. Right. And that,

5:09

I think, is. Is a really important point for

5:09

people to be aware of, is that we tend to rely

5:15

too heavily on just a couple methods. We boil

5:15

everything down. We kind of use the same two or

5:24

three tricks in all of the complex ways that we

5:24

try and show recognition. It kind of all boils

5:30

down to two or three strategies. And those two or

5:30

three strategies tend to be saying something nice

5:38

to someone, like a verbal thank you or just, hey,

5:38

good job. Which again, is great. Doing something

5:45

nice, providing someone a nice effort or doing

5:45

something or a nice gesture for somebody. And

5:51

then the third one is giving something nice. These

5:51

are the gifts. These are the kind of. Those kind

5:55

of symbol cards, the awards. Yeah, exactly right.

5:55

Those three things are the most common. They're

6:02

not bad. But what I think is where we are causing

6:02

things to fall short is we tend to go back to the

6:13

well of saying something nice, doing something

6:13

nice or giving something nice too much. And we're

6:19

not realizing that those three methods don't work

6:19

for everybody. And if we're only using one of them

6:27

or even two of them, you know, we all understand

6:27

appreciation and recognition in different ways.

6:33

Yeah. And the programs

6:36

that you implement are what we, what I think the

6:36

most important thing that I want to get across

6:42

to somebody listening to this who's wondering why

6:42

their recognition program is not hitting the mark,

6:50

it's not doing what they, what it's designed

6:50

to do, is that when you're, if you're trying

6:57

to implement a boxed solution, one solution that

6:57

will hit everybody, that will affect everybody,

7:06

you are probably just beating your head against

7:06

the wall. It's going to be a lot of frustration

7:11

because you're trying to implement a complicated

7:11

solution, a solution that has multiple steps on

7:20

people who are complex and they're messy. And

7:20

what each person wants and needs not only is

7:28

unique to them, but can change over time. So

7:28

understanding the individuals that you are

7:36

trying to recognize will always provide you with

7:36

a better outcome than a standard boxed solution.

7:45

And it's not that the standard solutions are

7:45

not good, it's that they're not good enough.

7:51

If you want to make it apparent throughout the

7:51

organization that you are authentically trying

8:00

to show recognition to people and say thank

8:00

you or however you say that for their efforts.

8:09

Because, I mean, like, I think a good example of why a sincere effort

8:11

falls flat is kind of the idea of, to some people,

8:19

saying a sincere thank you really does have a

8:19

great meaning. It really does. Something that

8:26

if it comes from someone they respect, if it's

8:26

said with every good intention that can mean the

8:33

world to some people, then there's others that

8:33

if they're just words and even if it is said

8:41

with all sincerity and, you know, and again, all

8:41

real, true effort made for someone they respect,

8:47

it doesn't resonate with them. It's just words

8:47

that they hear. And it's the same thing with a

8:54

lot of these programs that give something away.

8:54

Some people, those symbols, those tangible pieces,

9:00

those gift cards, those awards are something

9:00

that they will smile about for years.

9:06

Yeah.

9:07

Other people, it's a yes, thanks put in their pocket

9:08

and they never think of it again.

9:11

Yeah, well, and it's like the service awards. I know

9:12

people who will hang their service

9:16

awards in their office and it's a point

9:16

of pride. Service awards are not bad.

9:21

Right.

9:21

Award ceremonies are not bad. Gift card programs are not bad. It's really

9:23

like, so you talk about the, you, the verbal thank

9:32

you. I actually like that. I like if as long as

9:32

it comes, you know, it is timely, authentic, and

9:40

appreciable. It makes me feel good when I've done

9:40

something well and somebody sees that and goes,

9:51

hey, you did a really good job on that. I mean,

9:51

that is a way that I feel, recognized. It's not

10:00

the only way that I feel recognized, which

10:00

is another key piece that we probably don't

10:05

get and need have time to go into all the details

10:05

of. But understanding the motivations of different

10:13

people is going to be far more important than any

10:13

one standard solution that you try to implement.

10:23

Yeah. So at risk

10:26

of making this question kind of go a little long,

10:26

I think it wouldn't hurt for us to kind of talk

10:31

about the kind of solution that we use in these

10:31

kind of situations. So one of the things that we

10:37

do when we talk to organizations that are trying

10:37

to improve their recognition programs or trying

10:41

to figure out how is it they can be more impactful

10:41

with what they're already doing. We have a program

10:46

that we call sevenfold recognition, and it really

10:46

kind of falls on this idea of the way that you're

10:53

expressing recognition to people. Might not be

10:53

landing with them because you're only trying to

10:59

use one or two methods to say it. Either. You're

10:59

only saying it through giving something nice,

11:04

or even, or doing, or a verbal thank you. And

11:04

again, only some people that hits with, like I

11:12

said, with the manufacturing was like, what, 20

11:12

-25% of people were. It was actually hitting.

11:17

It was less than 20. I don't remember the exact numbers.

11:17

I think it was around twelve to 15.

11:21

But a significantly small

11:25

number of people in this whole organization. So

11:25

without going into the whole program, I can give

11:31

you the highlights of it. So the whole. The idea

11:31

is that when we say the most common ways that we

11:36

talk about recognition is saying something nice,

11:36

doing something nice, and giving something nice.

11:42

Those are three of what we say is seven methods to

11:42

show recognition. So most of the time we're using

11:49

less than half of the different ways people

11:49

understand and value recognition and feeling

11:55

appreciated. So to give you the whole seven, and

11:55

I'll actually put a link to some content around

12:02

symbol recognition in the show notes in case

12:02

this is something that really resonates with

12:05

people. But the seven methods are encouraging

12:05

feedback, which is the same, saying something

12:12

nice to thank you, the positive, you know,

12:12

responses, and, hey, you did a great job on x.

12:18

Exactly, thank you.

12:20

Second is meaningful efforts. This is the

12:20

doing something nice. This is the, you know,

12:24

small little gesture little. I picked you up

12:24

a cup of coffee. You know, I did some. I did

12:29

some of the work for you before you got here,

12:29

just to help you out those little efforts. The

12:34

third is concrete symbols. This is the giving

12:34

something nice. These are the service awards

12:39

or the gift cards or everything else like that,

12:39

too. But then separate from those common three,

12:43

there's four other ones. The next is undivided

12:43

attention. It's when you talk to someone,

12:50

you're not on your phone or you're not half

12:50

reading while you're having a conversation.

12:55

You're showing them that you've carved out

12:55

enough time to give them your full attention.

13:02

You appreciate them enough to put other

13:02

distractions aside and focus on them.

13:07

Exactly. To some people, that changes the world. The next is personal

13:08

connections. This is about having that sense

13:14

of familiarity and camaraderie. It's that sense

13:14

of, you know, feeling, that belonging and feeling

13:22

the. Almost like the casual relationship that you

13:22

build within your workplace with people. Like,

13:26

it's about creating work friends. To some people,

13:26

if they've got that sense of, you know, that

13:32

connection, that belonging, that being included

13:32

and having, like, you know, side jokes and,

13:37

you know, little things like that can be the most

13:37

meaningful way that they understand recognition.

13:43

Yeah.

13:44

So number six is professional independence. This

13:48

is giving the person the respect and the freedom

13:48

to do the job the way that they know it needs

13:54

to be done. It's about not trying to limit the

13:54

amount of restrictions you put on where they work,

14:00

when they work, how they work, and trusting

14:00

them to deliver with a lot less oversight

14:06

or a lot less. Again, restrictive kind of ties

14:06

that hold them to the nine to five desk order.

14:14

And this has been, for me, other than that,

14:14

encouraging feedback. This is the big one for

14:21

me. Give me the goalpost and get out of my way

14:21

and let me do what I need to do the job well.

14:33

And that level of freedom, to me, shows that

14:33

I am appreciated and that I am valued, right?

14:40

Absolutely. And the last one

14:42

is skill mastery. And this is about acknowledging

14:42

the abilities and appreciating the expertise that

14:50

someone has. And sometimes it's about going to

14:50

them for advice. Sometimes it's giving them,

14:55

you know, leads on projects. Sometimes it's

14:55

about, you know, just, you know, having this

15:01

person's abilities be something that is like the.

15:01

The go to or the. The defining characteristic of

15:08

their work. Like, it's holding their work

15:08

in high standard and being very, you know,

15:14

appreciated for what you bring to your job. And

15:14

honestly, this is a big one for me. This is the

15:20

one that probably has the most impact on me is

15:20

the acknowledgement of expertise and abilities.

15:27

And what's so interesting about these seven

15:27

methods is that they are about the everyday,

15:33

where a lot of the other programs out there are

15:33

about the like kind of the automated response

15:40

or the, when you hit certain deadlines

15:40

or hit certain points or you've earned.

15:46

Enough points that you can now be recognized.

15:48

Yeah, exactly right. And where these are

15:51

about more about the everyday conversations or the

15:51

everyday interactions, they're the everyday casual

15:58

engagements of your team and your manager and

15:58

everything else like that too. And that's where

16:04

real recognition has the most impact. And which is

16:04

why we say when we try and advise on programs that

16:10

are existing, we don't say throw the programs out

16:10

because there's nothing wrong with the programs,

16:14

but it's understanding these seven methods

16:14

augment programs like you wouldn't believe.

16:20

And it makes it more meaningful for

16:22

people if so, we've talked, I mentioned the terms

16:22

timely, authentic, and appreciable. And in other

16:35

conversations we've probably brought up those

16:35

three dimensions. But to show recognition in,

16:41

at work, those three elements need to be

16:41

in place. It needs to be timely. I mean,

16:47

waiting, if somebody does a good job in January

16:47

and you don't recognize them until your Christmas

16:52

party in December, that's not timely. Thank

16:52

you very much for the work that you did eight

16:59

months ago. Not timely. It also needs to be

16:59

authentic. And the risk of boxed programs is

17:09

that they can feel very inauthentic because

17:09

you're doing it's blanket statements. It's,

17:16

it's not personalized. And it's hard to feel that

17:16

authentic sense of recognition and appreciation if

17:26

it's not personalized and appreciable is really

17:26

what we've been talking about with the seven

17:32

methods is that it needs to be in a form that

17:32

the person appreciates and understands and wants.

17:39

And the other thing too is knowing what preferences your team or you have

17:41

can be what really breaks this stuff open. Like,

17:51

I mean, James and I, we worked together for

17:51

way too long, but it's funny because, you know,

17:58

but we still kind of live and breathe this up

17:58

every day, like again. So James really does prefer

18:04

that encouraging feedback, that verbal thank you.

18:04

And honestly, that is something that I never think

18:11

about naturally, because a thank you to means

18:11

nothing. Complimenting my skills or complimenting

18:19

my actions don't care, just rolls off me. I don't

18:19

even process it. So it's not something I think to

18:27

do unless I actively, you know, intentionally make

18:27

that effort. So I know when I've taught, trained

18:34

myself to make sure that when we, James and I, are

18:34

working together, that it's something that I don't

18:40

take for granted. I don't take for granted that,

18:40

you know, that he understands that I appreciate

18:44

or I recognize the good work he does. So I make

18:44

the effort to know his preference and I show it.

18:50

And it's not about every time a person walks in the

18:51

room, you need to acknowledge or thank

18:56

them. If it becomes routine like

18:56

that, it loses the authenticity.

19:02

Absolutely. Yes. Like, you know, it's, it

19:04

needs to come from something of substance. Because

19:04

if it's just give out twelve thank yous every

19:09

day. No, no, that's something that just waters

19:09

everything down and robs it of its authenticity.

19:16

Yeah.

19:17

And I mean, like, you know, but I also know that

19:19

like back to our differences, that I really value

19:19

the meaningful efforts. And I know that, like, you

19:25

know, you are usually the first person in the

19:25

office when we're in the office together and you

19:29

go out of your way to make sure that, you know,

19:29

I've got a cup of tea waiting for me when I walk

19:33

in the door. And that's something that I know that

19:33

you intentionally do as just a sign of, you know,

19:40

of just of appreciation. And it's something

19:40

that, again, not something that's your dominant

19:46

feeling that, you know, you intentionally

19:46

do that as a small, meaningful effort.

19:51

Yeah, I mean, I, we both drink tea through the day. We both

19:53

have our teaspoon with us now. So the extra

20:02

little bit of effort to just make sure that

20:02

the water's hot when you come in isn't. It

20:07

doesn't take much out of my day, but I know that

20:07

you're going to show up and you're going to want

20:12

a cup of tea. So why not make that small

20:12

effort that I know would be appreciable?

20:19

And you don't understand how,

20:23

and that's very meaningful to me, that someone

20:23

put the effort into something when I wasn't here.

20:27

And that means a lot to me. It doesn't, you

20:27

know, without me telling you that or though

20:32

you know nothing about me, you might not even

20:32

think of that. So that's just the reality of

20:36

why this stuff makes different even again.

20:36

You and I are very similar in a lot of ways,

20:41

but even these subtle differences improve our

20:41

working relationship. So when this knowledge,

20:46

when this ability to kind of just have a

20:46

bit of insight and how people, you know,

20:51

generally feel appreciated and recognized

20:51

can do wonders to the morale of a team,

20:57

because it's about making the authentic effort

20:57

to showing them recognition that they require.

21:04

I know we've got to move on to other questions, but I think one of

21:06

the biggest, one of the best examples of this,

21:12

and I love the visual because I can see it so

21:12

perfectly still, is when were delivering this

21:20

program and there was conflict already existing

21:20

between the executive, between the director and

21:29

their personal assistant. And the director

21:29

sincerely was trying to say thank you, and

21:38

literally would just say thank you all the time,

21:38

but she would say thank you while she's checking

21:43

her email or looking at her phone or doing.

21:43

Because they had 57 other things that they had to

21:50

do that day. Their do executive, their assistant

21:50

needed their undivided attention. That is how they

22:00

felt valued. And that shift, that understanding

22:00

of one person was authentically trying to say it,

22:10

trying to show recognition. The other person did

22:10

not feel it by any stretch of the imagination.

22:17

It changed their working relationship. And

22:17

it was such a fantastic aha. Moment of, oh,

22:25

this person's not terrible. They just are showing

22:25

recognition in the way that they want to feel it.

22:35

Right.

22:35

Anyways, recognition is a fantastic

22:39

topic and it is really important in developing

22:39

your employee experience if you want to do it

22:49

well. Understand the different ways that people

22:49

understand and show and appreciate recognition.

22:58

Don't throw the baby with the bath water. Your

22:58

recognition programs are good. They can better.

23:04

Absolutely. No, that's great. All right, let's

23:07

move on to the next question.

23:10

All right, our next question is, why do many teams give

23:11

up on their people and culture initiatives?

23:20

Right. This is

23:22

something that we do see. It's funny because

23:22

we often see it kind of retroactively, like,

23:28

you know, when we're talking to an organization

23:28

about, like, you know, their issues around

23:33

talent attraction or their issues around, or

23:33

they're trying to things around wellness or

23:37

whatever, and. And they're like, well, we tried

23:37

that a year ago and it didn't fizzle, though. So,

23:41

you know, or we invested all this money into these

23:41

trainings, and then, like, you know, a week later,

23:45

it all went back to normal and this and that and

23:45

the other thing. And that's something that we hear

23:49

of a lot. And it's funny cause in a large way,

23:49

the past failures of these initiatives is one of

23:57

the biggest hurdles when trying to help them

23:57

resolve issues, because we always hear that,

24:03

well, we already tried that and that didn't

24:03

work. So what else you got? And, you know,

24:08

so it is really important for people to

24:08

be kind of. Be kind of aware of you know,

24:14

that bias can actually be something that is a

24:14

huge roadblock. But I digress. When it comes

24:22

to a lot of these things, it's really about not

24:22

understanding the complexity of them. Like, your

24:29

training initiatives and your mentorship programs

24:29

are a good example because a lot of training is,

24:34

again, we built a training platform and system.

24:34

People can take training whenever they want,

24:39

but no one's really taking it or carving at

24:39

the time or no one's finishing it or this and

24:43

that. And the other thing, and a lot of it is

24:43

because of the sense of just putting it there

24:51

and checking the box so it's there and thinking

24:51

that it will do all the work for them is where

24:56

a lot of the problem comes from. Like, one of

24:56

the things that we say is as great as a movie,

25:01

as field of dreams was, if we build it, they will

25:01

come is not a thing. That is the worst kind of,

25:10

like, mantra that is holding so many organizations

25:10

back, because just putting things there for people

25:18

does not really move the needle any kind of way

25:18

that you want it to. And a lot of that falls back

25:24

to that, not understanding the complexity of

25:24

things, and this is. And they turn into chaos

25:30

solutions. We invested something. We put this big

25:30

push behind it. Now no one's using it. Big loss.

25:36

You know, employees don't want to be trained.

25:36

Training doesn't work. And it really just kind

25:40

of poisons all the other efforts. But a lot of it

25:40

is that fully not getting the complexity of these

25:46

initiatives or of these programs, and it ends

25:46

up what hurts them and why they give up on them.

25:52

Yeah. And I always

25:55

go back to early in my career being told to shadow

25:55

or basically, they, the company had an unofficial

26:07

mentor or buddy system, which is a fairly common

26:07

thing for new hires. Get connected with somebody

26:13

who is. Who's been in the organization

26:13

for a while, who can show them the ropes,

26:18

who can, you know, help them acclimatize to the

26:18

organizational culture, the norms, all of these

26:24

things. It makes sense. It makes sense as long as

26:24

there's not rampant job dissatisfaction throughout

26:33

the entire organization. Because I remember,

26:33

like, the thing that I learned from my mentor

26:40

was carry a notebook and look like you're doing

26:40

like you're busy and nobody will ask you a thing.

26:46

Right.

26:46

So I had a clipboard

26:49

that folded over that I would carry around

26:49

and make sure that if I was going anywhere,

26:54

I was going fast, because if you're walking

26:54

fast and you're carrying a notebook, then you're

26:59

obviously on your way to do something important.

26:59

Best piece of advice I got in my early career,

27:06

I was the busiest person in the office. Right.

27:06

Talk about a chaos solution though, right?

27:14

Yeah, absolutely.

27:15

A well intentioned program that really if done properly can be,

27:17

can make a substantial difference helping to

27:27

onboard people through these mentorship.

27:27

It builds relationships, connections like

27:33

there are so many good aspects of it, but if

27:33

done without understanding what is actually.

27:43

Going to be taught.

27:45

Yeah, it's. Anyways,

27:47

I just keep going back to that example in my

27:47

mind because one, I think it's hilarious. And

27:53

knowing what I know now, how on earth we

27:53

ever got away with it is another question.

28:03

But nobody. But it's the idea of. Yeah, that sounds like a program

28:04

that was implemented to fulfill a task or fulfill

28:12

a. A goal and something that was on paper. But

28:12

the, but again, the complexity of what it takes

28:19

to make this accessible wasn't fully understood

28:19

and buy in wasn't created with the mentors and

28:24

all this other kind of stuff like that too. It

28:24

sounds like. Yeah, it sounds very much like a

28:28

chaos solution. And I think like where mine

28:28

goes when it comes to kind of these things

28:33

are kind of two things that pop up earlier.

28:33

It's kind of wellness programs and training

28:37

initiatives because a lot of those are built with

28:37

as performative solutions. It's stuff that looks

28:46

good. Which is why in wellness specifically we

28:46

see this overemphasis on physical health a lot in

28:53

wellness programs because those are very visible

28:53

performative pieces. It's like, you know, it's gym

28:59

memberships or it's putting like gyms into the

28:59

offices or if it's like, you know, improving,

29:04

like, you know, healthy eating challenges and

29:04

stuff like that. Whereas where a lot of them,

29:09

where a lot of really meaningful wellness programs

29:09

come is they are about resolving issues that are

29:14

hurting emotional health or mental health, but

29:14

those aren't as visible or as easy to kind of see

29:22

this see happening. So they tend to be less common

29:22

and less, you know, again, less invested in.

29:29

I suppose they are more difficult though. Like

29:31

legitimately they are more difficult

29:35

because they are tend to be more individual.

29:35

But again, understanding the individual is

29:43

how you are going to get the most out of these

29:43

programs. And boxed solutions rarely work well.

29:53

Yeah, and again, going back to the training thing I

29:54

said before, sometimes it's about,

29:57

again, we, the company will build their own

29:57

LMS system or they'll sign training dollars

30:01

and then push everyone to fill the fill to get

30:01

their training, spend their training dollars,

30:06

but they don't really provide the ability to

30:06

use any of the training in the workplaces or

30:10

anything like that. So it's really just a matter

30:10

of spending the money so you don't lose it for

30:13

next year. You know, those are, again, the chaos

30:13

solutions that you don't get the complexity of

30:18

how to make them successful. So again, why teams

30:18

often give up on people and culture initiatives.

30:23

Performative solutions is a very common one

30:23

where the company's trying to do a bit of,

30:30

again, easy to see, easy to answers if you build

30:30

what they will come kind of solutions. But.

30:35

But the other tick box solutions.

30:37

Exactly. Yes. But the other side of it too is even

30:39

when they actually are really trying to do the

30:39

right thing, sometimes they're sold what they are

30:46

told is a complete solution. But the solution that

30:46

they're being provided is, again, is a complicated

30:55

solution, not a complex solution. Kind of going

30:55

back to what you said earlier where it's about,

31:00

here's something that you can incorporate this big

31:00

program that will do all these different things,

31:05

but a lot of this, these programs were based

31:05

on, again, incomplete understanding of what,

31:13

of how complex a lot of these issues are. And

31:13

actually a great example of that is going back

31:17

to recognition. Like, I mean, talking about,

31:17

you know, the gift card programs or the point

31:23

programs, these are things that companies have

31:23

paid into and bought and spent a lot of money on…

31:30

And software to support and apps and like, and training for the

31:31

manager, ton of money on recognition programs.

31:38

But again, these are incomplete solutions that are

31:39

sold as complete solutions because they're

31:44

sweeping organizational wide. Everyone

31:44

is treated the same or has access to the

31:49

same opportunity solutions. But we know, again,

31:49

even going back to your manufacturing example,

31:58

the uptick's not there. And then eventually the

31:58

companies were like, well, geez, we invested x

32:03

number of dollars into these programs and we spent

32:03

all these money on gift cards and only, you know,

32:08

less than 20% is actually taking up on them. Then

32:08

they often give up and then they write them off.

32:14

And one of the main reasons why companies will implement

32:14

recognition programs or these types of programs

32:18

in general is to improve retention rates.

32:18

We, retention is huge and it is costly to

32:27

replace people. So we want to keep people as

32:27

long as possible, which is an admirable goal.

32:34

Absolutely.

32:35

But it doesn't work if people don't actually connect with what

32:37

you're trying to do. And so, as you said,

32:43

companies will spend a tremendous amount of money

32:43

and then they'll look at their retention rates

32:47

and it hasn't changed. So obviously, recognition

32:47

is not the problem. It has to be something else.

32:52

Yeah, absolutely. Or,

32:54

yeah, or recognition doesn't work or this.

32:54

But again, it's the idea of we tried it…

32:59

Tried it didn't, it didn't change the numbers. So

33:00

we're not going to try that again.

33:04

Exactly. And that is one of the biggest problems is they failed to have a winning

33:06

strategy and the strategy that they had, you know,

33:14

disappointed them. So therefore they give up on

33:14

trying anything ever again or investing in this

33:19

ever again. And then it's just the reality of,

33:19

well, you're still going to have these problems

33:28

even though you don't want to resolve or you don't

33:28

want to reinvest in these solutions done properly,

33:34

or where you're going to actually have, where

33:34

this success is going to come from. So it's why we

33:40

often say it's not about replacing programs, it's

33:40

about augmenting what you already have. Because

33:47

again, it's very rare that these programs have

33:47

no impact. It's just how much augmentation they

33:54

need to actually hit the goals that they kind of

33:54

promised you. And sometimes it's just a matter of,

33:58

you know, salespeople not necessarily giving,

33:58

you know, selling you on the best case scenario,

34:03

not the most realistic scenario, but that's a

34:03

whole other thing. But again, it's about the

34:08

idea of why teams give up on initiatives is again,

34:08

they don't understand what it takes to have them

34:13

be successful because they either a want them to

34:13

look a certain way and they think success looks a

34:19

certain way, or they've been sold a complete

34:19

solution. That's not a complete solution.

34:25

And sometimes it's also a

34:27

matter of we get into this idea that in order, the

34:27

only way that we can show recognition, or the only

34:34

way that we can show, the only way that we can do

34:34

it equitably is to do it the same for everybody.

34:42

Right.

34:43

Which is a misunderstanding of the term equitably.

34:48

Exactly. It's thinking of it as equally.

34:51

Yeah, I mean, doing,

34:54

in order for it to be equitable, each person

34:54

needs to appreciate and understand it. Not each

35:01

person gets the exact same thing, regardless of

35:01

whether or not they appreciate or, understand it.

35:08

Well, actually, going back to the common strategies of, let me talk about,

35:09

with recognition in the first question. You know,

35:16

the idea of giving something nice to somebody,

35:16

if everyone is, has the opportunity to get the

35:20

same thing, then we're trying to be equal and

35:20

fair to every person. But that's maybe where

35:28

that fundamental linchpin problem is that if every

35:28

person is, if your strategy is based on equality,

35:35

giving everyone the same thing, that's a

35:35

fundamental problem. Because again, it's about,

35:41

it should be about equity, giving people what they

35:41

need. And if, you know, someone needs, you know,

35:48

to be told, you know, somebody's. To have their

35:48

recognition shown again through concrete symbol,

35:56

that's great. Others need to be shown

35:56

through undivided attention. You know what I

35:59

mean? Then that's about really being more

35:59

equitable in how we approach recognition.

36:05

Yeah. Whenever we talk about this,

36:08

the same image always comes to mind. It's been

36:08

around for ages, been used in many different

36:16

forms. I'll try to articulate an image properly,

36:16

but essentially there's, you know, three people

36:22

standing in front of a fence. Each person is

36:22

forced to be with three boxes, essentially,

36:30

for it to be equal, each person receives one box.

36:30

For it to be equitable, the tallest person can

36:36

actually see over the fence. Without a box, the

36:36

shortest person might need two boxes in order to

36:42

see over the fence, where the person who's kind

36:42

of. Of middle height might only need one box to

36:47

see over the fence. Giving people what they

36:47

need to be able to see over the fence is what

36:53

we're trying to do. Should be what we're trying to

36:53

do. If you want to make it completely equal, give

36:59

each person one box. Two out of the three will be

36:59

able to see over the fence, but one person won't.

37:06

Yeah, you're right. So sometimes it's a matter of,

37:09

we're looking at these programs, no matter what

37:09

they are, whether they're wellness or whether

37:12

they're training, whether they're recognition,

37:12

is that giving everyone access to the same thing

37:18

and thinking that as long as we're equal,

37:18

we're doing it right, that is a fundamental.

37:22

Well, that's a performative solution.

37:24

Yes, exactly. Maybe that's going to ties back to

37:25

that. So I think we covered those pretty well,

37:31

although number two really kind of blown

37:31

it into number one in there at the end.

37:36

But I think let's move on to the third

37:36

question. So I'll ask this one to you.

37:40

Okay, sure.

37:41

So this says, I'm a new manager. I see lots

37:46

of things that need to improve, but I do not have

37:46

the authority to change them. What should I do?

37:52

Oh, yeah,

37:55

this is always fun. The most important thing in

37:55

this situation, if you are, I'm assuming this

38:03

is a person who is new into management, not a

38:03

person who is an experienced manager in a new

38:09

role. So I'm gonna. That's how I'm gonna look at

38:09

it. New into management. The most important thing

38:15

that you can do, first and foremost, is manage

38:15

expectations. Learn how to manage those. Your own

38:21

expectations as well as the expectations above and

38:21

below you. If you have identified areas that will

38:31

improve operational efficiency, that is a really

38:31

good thing to do. And you need to understand who

38:39

would be the person who's going to be making

38:39

the decision. So if you have, if you report,

38:46

you would have a direct supervisor. You need

38:46

to work within the system that you are given,

38:52

especially as a new manager. You need to be seen

38:52

to be to respect the structures that are in place.

38:59

Don't try to go immediately to the CEO or the

38:59

director. If you've got a couple people in between

39:06

you and that authority level, make the case to,

39:06

you need to tie it to either a the business case.

39:16

How is the company going to actually save money,

39:16

time, resources, whatever by implementing your new

39:24

strategy. That is an excellent way of crafting

39:24

the narrative. And even though you don't have

39:32

the authority, you can pitch somebody else on why

39:32

they should care about it. If you're going to a

39:38

direct supervisor, who then has to go to a direct

39:38

supervisor to make the change, what motivation

39:47

is that person who you are going to, what's

39:47

their motivation for moving it up? How is them

39:54

making this change or supporting you to make this

39:54

change going to help them in their career? Yes,

40:01

it's a bit of a selfish mentality. Who cares?

40:01

The reality is, and if you can't tie it directly

40:11

to the business case or the person who you are

40:11

reporting to is not necessarily solely motivated

40:20

by the business case. If you want to make these

40:20

changes, but you don't have the authority to do

40:27

it yourself, then you are going to have to craft

40:27

the narrative that speaks to the motivation of the

40:32

person that you're talking to. And part of that is

40:32

understanding, setting and managing expectations.

40:38

You know, that's really good advice. I think that just in

40:39

general, for any manager, new or experienced,

40:44

being able to set and manage expectations is just

40:44

unbelievably invaluable skill. We actually did an

40:49

episode, we talked about that in great detail,

40:49

called the most over. What's the most overlooked

40:54

management skills. So check that episode out too.

40:54

But the idea of the fact that you need to be able

41:00

to manage expectations to those who you report

41:00

to and those who report to you because you want

41:05

to make sure that you're on the same page, that

41:05

people know what to expect, and that it's clear

41:11

that you all agree to what success looks like.

41:11

Right? The other piece of it too is to consider

41:15

psychological safety, right? I mean, if your

41:15

manager generally good management advice is

41:21

look to provide psychological safety to your team.

41:21

Those who you do have direct authority over, make

41:26

sure that you are ingraining psychological safety

41:26

into the everyday actions that people speak up,

41:32

share ideas, you know, talk about concerns,

41:32

anything like that. And you also need to be

41:37

aware of how much psychological safety exists with

41:37

who you report to. Do you have the ability to kind

41:42

of share these new ideas, these new initiatives,

41:42

and, you know, and, you know, are you going to be,

41:47

you going to face ridicule or retaliation? If

41:47

you try and challenge a setup quote, which are

41:52

things that you need to be aware of going into it,

41:52

because sometimes organizations say they have an

41:58

open door policy or they have, they are, they,

41:58

you know, and they encourage employee feedback,

42:02

but really they say that, and then they, behind

42:02

closed doors, they judge it. We call that

42:07

counterfeit psychological safety. So knowing that

42:07

the reality that you work in is very important.

42:13

But I think you're right. Regardless of what the

42:13

environment is, kind of great universal advice

42:22

is that to get anyone to change requires them to

42:22

buy in. And that has to start with understanding

42:29

and speaking directly to the needs of your

42:29

audience. Even if your supervisor does not

42:34

have psychological safety, does not provide that,

42:34

and you're in risk of retaliation or ridicule. If

42:39

they have priorities that they want and you can

42:39

speak to how they can get what they want, that

42:46

motivates them. If you're not saying for me or for

42:46

our team or for the company, if that's not going

42:53

to move them in a way that's going to have them

42:53

be on your side, then what will. And speak to your

43:00

audience. And then when you and that supervisor,

43:00

maybe who you've got on the same page as you have

43:05

to go to their supervisor, then you need to do

43:05

the same thing. What's going to move them onto our

43:10

side and speak to that audience? Because that's

43:10

really where change happens, is through buy in.

43:15

And eventually you will get to the business case at a level, usually, you know, senior

43:16

leadership director level, at some point you're

43:24

going to run up against. Okay, how is making this

43:24

change going to affect our bottom line? How is it

43:30

going to improve? If it's operational efficiency,

43:30

then what is the anticipated result of that?

43:36

Right.

43:37

So absolutely do not neglect that business

43:42

case and understanding how you can actually make

43:42

the business case for changing these things. The

43:48

one other thing that pops to mind in terms of a

43:48

caution, that I see too often with new managers,

43:55

especially if this is your opportunity to prove

43:55

yourself or you feel like this is your golden

44:03

chance, sometimes people get a little too excited

44:03

early into a new position like that. And when they

44:13

identify these types of policies or practices

44:13

that could have a direct impact on their team,

44:21

they talk to their team about it first before

44:21

and get the team excited about, oh, well,

44:29

this person actually wants to help us improve

44:29

X, Y and Z, and things are going to better,

44:35

and they create an expectation that may be

44:35

very difficult for them to follow through on.

44:43

The employees think, okay, my supervisors agrees

44:45

with us. So change is coming.

44:49

Yeah. And then that change doesn't come for what could be

44:50

any host of completely valid business reasons.

44:59

Right. Or could it be that they have to get them

44:59

their manager and then their manager?

45:02

Or could just be of. Takes a really

45:03

long time to move a big ship.

45:07

Yeah.

45:08

The problem that rises with that, though,

45:12

is that you've now set an expectation with your

45:12

team and going back to them and saying, not yet,

45:19

not yet. Or I've passed it up and nothing's

45:19

happening. You either have, you either wear that

45:27

yourself as a new manager, having let them down,

45:27

having set expectations and failed to deliver,

45:34

or you pass the buck onto the organization,

45:34

which causes your team to not trust the people

45:41

above you. Neither one of those solutions or

45:41

outcomes is what you want as a new manager.

45:49

So going back to understanding and setting and

45:49

managing expectations is a crucial ability for

45:57

your success. And it's not just about, managing

45:57

the expectations that others place on you. It's

46:06

managing the expectations that you create with

46:06

your team and understanding what the damage that

46:13

can be done if through. Really, I want to say, no

46:13

fault of your own, but it is your fault if you. If

46:19

you set those expectations. But more, rather

46:19

than no fault, it's more of a inadvertently,

46:28

creating these expectations, it can cause so

46:28

many problems for you. And as a new manager

46:33

in your career, that's going to follow you for a

46:33

while. Fortunately, it gives you an opportunity to

46:39

learn from past mistakes, but let's try not

46:39

to make those mistakes in the first place.

46:45

No, that's good advice. All right, so I think we

46:46

provided some good answers for these three

46:52

questions. so the only thing more to add, I

46:52

think I'll just jump into a quick summary.

46:56

No, I think I'm good.

46:58

All right. So our first question was, why do many

47:02

recognition programs fall short? Well, largely,

47:02

it's because the programs that we have usually

47:10

are incorporated kind of big initiatives that

47:10

kind of fall into the trap of not being timely,

47:18

authentic and appreciable, or, and, or relying too

47:18

heavily on three common ways to show recognition,

47:25

which is saying something nice, doing something

47:25

nice, and giving something nice. When we tend to

47:30

oversimplify what recognition needs to look like,

47:30

we, you know, hold on a recognition for a long

47:36

time and give it to people all at once, or we lean

47:36

too heavily one or two methods, we end up only

47:43

appealing to a small portion of our workplaces

47:43

and the rest don't feel recognized. Having a

47:49

much broader understanding, such as learning about

47:49

the seven methods of recognition in our seven fold

47:55

recognition program is a good place to start, is

47:55

a great way to really kind of have a much broader

47:59

view of recognition and looking to try and be

47:59

more timely, authentic and appreciable. Our second

48:06

question is, why do many teams give up on people

48:06

and culture initiatives? Well, largely it tends

48:12

to fall into two categories. One, they look for

48:12

performative solutions that will look really good,

48:18

look like they're doing something, you know, easy

48:18

to check boxes and think that they will have the

48:23

success that they want, but really, a lot of times

48:23

they only look effective when they may not be. The

48:30

other common problem is people will think that

48:30

they've been sold a complete all in one solution,

48:36

but it doesn't account for the uniqueness and

48:36

kind of the complexity of the people in your

48:41

workplaces. So sometimes these solutions can be

48:41

helpful if we augment them with other programs,

48:47

other resources and supports to make them

48:47

a custom, complete solution, but usually

48:52

right out of the box. Nothing works everywhere for

48:52

everybody all the time. Now, third question is,

48:59

as a new manager, well, how can I improve or how

48:59

can I address things that need to improve without

49:06

the authority to do it? And our best advice we can

49:06

always give is to always manage expectations set

49:11

and manage clear and realistic expectations,

49:11

whether it's to your team or whether it's to

49:17

who you report to. Because if you want things to

49:17

happen, having things like the business case for

49:23

why improvements need to exist is a good place to

49:23

start. But really it's about, if you want to make

49:28

change happen, then you have to speak to the

49:28

audience of every audience that is involved in

49:34

the change and work your way to getting everyone

49:34

on board by being able to customize the argument

49:41

that will speak to the needs of your audience.

49:41

Because eventually is a lot of times, you know,

49:47

turning the ship can take, can take some time,

49:47

and you need a lot of allies on your side because

49:52

buy in is the fundamental piece. But all this

49:52

kind of falls to, you have to be able to manage

49:57

expectations of those you work with, and you

49:57

have to be able to be aware of the environment

50:02

that you're in when it comes to things like

50:02

psychological safety and everything like that.

50:06

If you really want to have a long term impact,

50:06

you need to be tactical, you need to be patient,

50:11

and you need to get people on your side to

50:11

work towards turning that ship. All right,

50:19

so that about does it for us. For a full

50:19

archive of the podcast and access to the

50:24

video version hosted on our YouTube channel,

50:24

www.roman3.ca/podcast thanks for joining us.

50:31

For more information on topics like these,

50:33

don't forget to visit us at www.roman3.ca. Side

50:33

effects of this podcast may include improved

50:39

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50:39

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50:44

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