0:00

Hi, and welcome back to the Digital Storm podcast, a Fikra original

0:04

production. On episode 11, we will be diving into the

0:07

European Union's Digital Services Act, or the

0:10

DSA. DSA is here to protect us. It's

0:14

changing how we interact online, making sure our rights aren't

0:17

just fancy words on a screen. But what is it missing? How

0:21

does it impact us? How do we need to adapt? Does it

0:24

actually protect us? And what does this mean for non-Europeans? First

0:29

up on this episode, we are unpacking the DSA. We're

0:32

diving into what it does. And in case you've ever

0:35

felt like you're lost in the digital world, kind of like you're navigating

0:39

a maze, the DSA is here to pave a clearer path, putting

0:43

the power back in our hands and not just in some algorithm's hands.

0:47

But why are we talking about the DSA? And why did the EU even

0:51

get this ball rolling? Well, it's all about keeping our digital spaces

0:54

safe, fair, and free from misinformation. They're

0:57

tackling big challenges to make sure we've got a level playing field. With

1:01

us, you can dive deeper into the DSA and into digital literacy,

1:05

and exactly into how everything that you do does

1:09

affect how you end up scrolling online. For this, you can

1:12

hit up our website on www.zikra.studio. for

1:17

the lowdown on navigating the digital future confidently. Throughout

1:22

this episode, we'll take a look at how big platforms are stepping up

1:26

or not stepping up into the DSA's tune, changing the game

1:29

for digital marketing and content creation. It's about

1:33

seeing if these giants are really playing by the rules or

1:36

just pretending. But we're also going to stir the pot a

1:39

little bit and look into exactly what these tech

1:43

giants are doing with the DSA breathing

1:47

down their necks. Can the DSA keep them in check? Now,

1:52

throughout this podcast, we'll also be having a conversation on

1:56

everything that is about you, whether you're boosting

1:59

your career, leading a community, diving into tech, or

2:03

just being a savvy digital parent. We've got tips on using a DSA

2:06

to your advantage. This is about getting you ready to tackle the

2:10

digital world head on. So please make sure to

2:13

download and share this episode. And of course, let's chat on

2:16

social media about making the digital space safer and more transparent for

2:20

everyone. Now, welcome to the Digital Storm podcast. My

2:24

name is Younes and by my side is I think my

2:29

Oh, that's me. That's me climbing up the ranking.

2:32

That's you. You know, we used to do these jokes at the beginning of the podcast where

2:36

I would make a joke about you, but then I realized that I

2:42

Yeah. And they weren't that funny. Yeah, that

2:49

So I thought that by saying I ran out, it's better. Maybe,

3:00

Pretty good. Pretty good. You know, a lot's happening. The world is

3:03

burning down yet shining on the other hand. A lot of innovation and

3:06

a lot of problems, but we're here to climb

3:12

So Peter here, if you're listening, Peter here deleted social

3:19

I mean, yeah, pluses and minuses, you know, like

3:23

the problem is that deleting social media, I think is a

3:27

great start for everyone, like, and I don't have it for a very

3:30

long time. I think where it gets problematic is what

3:33

you do with that time. So if I have a

3:37

few extra hours of each day to do whatever I want, but

3:40

if that time is used to spend on YouTube or

3:44

playing chess, is that really the best

3:47

usage of my time? Probably not. But otherwise, yeah, bumpy

3:52

Bumpy road, but I think it's something we all struggle with. And it's

3:56

something that we're here to discuss on this Digital Storm episode as well. But

4:00

before we dive into the DSA, I was curious to know, actually, do you

4:04

ever do like online shopping, like to buy stuff online, or

4:10

To be honest, I'm not much of an online shopper.

4:14

I like, you know, like just going to a random store being

4:17

like, hi man, sorry, this is what I need. Like,

4:21

I'm looking for something that does this for me. He goes like, oh, I got you. What

4:24

do you think? And I'm like, I don't know. And kind of having that personal experience

4:28

of everyone explaining their own way and kind of like getting

4:31

that expertise and not just consuming everything

4:35

online. But it is kind of inefficient. Like

4:38

a lot of the times I did go to a store and they just didn't have

4:42

it. So I did the whole journey for nothing. So yeah,

4:45

it's probably not the best choice of or use of my time, but I

4:51

Yeah, that's the thing about the retail experience for me. It's that it makes

4:54

me feel heard and listened to, and it feels pretty

4:57

straightforward. So I always feel, I feel confident when I

5:00

leave and I have purchased an item, I'm like, yeah, this is the right

5:04

item. Cause I looked everywhere. But online, it always feels like it's

5:07

kind of a bit of a maze. I have to not only navigate the

5:11

website itself to not sign up to the newsletter and

5:14

to not have my cookies tracked and all of that stuff. but

5:18

it's also have to navigate, well, all of the internet and

5:23

Yeah, for sure. And also like things like how it looks, the

5:27

size, like there's so many factors. Does size matter? Depends

5:30

who's asking. Okay. Okay. But I

5:34

don't know. I think like the fact that you have someone you can talk to

5:38

and like ask them the small questions, I think is, really

5:41

useful and just makes experience more authentic. So even things like,

5:45

for example, when I bought the camera we're using actually right now, hello,

5:49

you know, I remember like I would just talk to the guy

5:52

and kind of summarize my needs and so on. And he was so helpful.

5:56

And not only that, but really got me excited, you know, and I feel like that

6:00

kind of the internet misses sometimes that personal experience of someone like

6:03

hyping you up like, oh, this camera can do this, that, that, if you want to

6:08

Of course, but I'm sure for our listeners right now, if you've ever wondered why

6:11

your online shopping feels like a maze and why perhaps social

6:15

media also feels a bit like a minefield where you're avoiding, well,

6:18

not only bad content, but also content that's trying to manipulate you

6:22

and ads and all of this. Well, that's exactly the DSA and

6:26

what it's for. It's that it's here to change the game for users like you

6:29

and I. And maybe to describe a bit about the objectives of

6:33

the whole Digital Services Act, which has been set

6:37

up by the European Union. Well, it aims to protect our

6:41

fundamental rights online. It ensures our freedom

6:44

of thought, expression, but at the same time, it also ensures

6:48

that we get this information without any manipulation. So

6:52

it does this by introducing transparency in regards to

6:55

content moderation, making the digital space safer but

6:58

also more predictable for users like you and I. But as well, it

7:02

also sets up a ban on dark patterns and unfair advertising

7:06

practices that puts the power back in the hands of users and

7:09

not algorithms. And I think when we're talking about all of

7:13

this, it's like the way I see it, if we relate this back to the conversation

7:16

we were having earlier, when you're walking into a retail shop, so

7:19

let's call that Media Markt here in Europe, mostly based in the Netherlands

7:23

and in Belgium, you walk into Media Markt to buy a camera. And

7:27

the DSA in this case would make sure that you can access

7:30

the store. without you being tracked in all

7:34

throughout your footsteps inside of the store. And the same way we think about

7:37

it online, I think we should also try to apply this to the real person

7:44

Yeah, I see. I feel like, you know, if you put

7:47

it like that, like imagine we would go to like a store and

7:50

they would be like, oh, Well, we've just seen that you hung

7:54

around, like you walked around next to the camera store. Plus

7:58

you asked your colleagues that you're interested in buying a camera.

8:01

So that's why we raised the price of all cameras just for you for

8:06

5%. If like someone would say that to you in a store, everyone would be like, what the

8:10

But as a business owner, that sounds like the perfect idea. You just

8:16

yeah but like online it's kind of how it works you know and

8:20

like the fact that like you know same practices you

8:23

know or like imagine like going to a shop and like picking up

8:26

an item and like the lady, the

8:30

store owner sees you with the item and goes like, oh, since you're holding it,

8:33

that's 20% more expensive now. And you're just like, you

8:37

Or you pick it up from the aisle and there's like 20 items

8:41

of that product left. And then as soon as you pick it up, it goes almost

8:47

Last one, last one. I see 20 and then 15 disappear and

8:50

you're only left with three or four. Yeah, last one at this price, you know. Yeah.

8:57

Yeah. And I think that we got so accustomed to

9:01

how things work online, you know, that like we

9:04

completely forgot that, you know, it doesn't, one, it doesn't have to

9:08

be like this, but also the fact that, you know, the real life really

9:11

doesn't work like that. You can negotiate, you can talk, you have

9:14

fixed prices, not like people kind of getting to

9:17

know you and kind of tailoring the prices based on each individual user.

9:21

Exactly. And so that's exactly what the Digital Services Act is about. It's

9:25

about protecting us the same way we're protected in these retail shops and

9:29

in our public spaces, but also in the public spaces of

9:32

the internet. Because right now on social media, not only are

9:35

you tracked using cookies, but also that data that

9:41

tracks you is then used to target ads towards you.

9:45

So before we've seen this go extremely wrong with like Cambridge

9:48

Analytica, where they started targeting you based on your religion or

9:52

sexual preference or something like that. And that was quite problematic because

9:57

essentially we became the product ourselves, where we became, our

10:00

data started to be sold to others to take a profit out of,

10:08

Yeah, it's like, I don't know, actually, the other day I was talking to

10:12

some people and we were talking about this hypothetical, you know, that

10:16

you go on a date with someone, but let's say they scanned your whole

10:19

online Instagram, whatever profile you have. I'm screwed. I'm

10:23

screwed. Yeah, but like, you know, like, It's not

10:30

quite the same if you're on a date with a girl and naturally the

10:34

topic of volleyball comes up and you realize that you both enjoy it,

10:37

versus her doing the research that you like volleyball and

10:41

her being like, Oh, volleyball is just such an amazing sport.

10:45

And you being like, oh, what a coincidence. I love all, you know what I

10:48

mean? Like the authentic experience is worth so much more

10:51

than the like preexisting, like kind of plan, you know? And

10:54

I think that's what the whole online experience is kind of

10:59

I think what you're saying is absolutely true because it's, it's like,

11:03

uh, it's absolutely true in regards to

11:06

our social interactions, but as well, when it comes to our business interactions

11:10

as a business, I would love to learn as much as I can

11:13

about my customers. And so because of that, the more info I

11:17

have about my customers, the better I can provide them a service.

11:21

And that better itself is why I put it under air quotes is

11:24

because it's a better service that's at the cost of my customer at

11:31

Yeah. Yeah. It's a problematic because also like

11:34

some would argue on the other hand, which we'll get into the details later

11:38

is that, you know, like as long as you don't break any terms

11:42

of privacies, violations and so on, getting to

11:45

know your customer to satisfy their needs is not

11:48

necessarily a bad thing. You know, I just feel like as the

11:51

DSA like obviously reflects upon,

11:55

we took it a bit too far, you know, but that doesn't

11:58

mean that all getting to know your customers is

12:02

bad. I just think like manipulating prices and the

12:09

Exactly, exactly. And so let's just quickly summarize what we've been talking

12:13

about. So we've outlined the objectives of

12:16

the Digital Services Act. Let's discuss the motivations behind

12:20

it. So why did the EU decide to shake up the digital world with

12:23

the DSA? Well, simple answer, it's because your digital

12:27

rights actually do matter. And that's what we here at the Digital Storm

12:30

Podcast strongly believe in. But so far, I think that there

12:33

has been so much research and so much data about this Digital Services

12:37

Act being given by all of these platforms, but also by all of these people

12:40

reporting about it, that it's kind of hard to understand how it directly impacts

12:44

us. So for the rest of this episode, that's exactly what we want to get into.

12:49

And our research points overall to just this growing concern over

12:52

our digital rights, emphasizing the need for the DSA to

12:56

respond to these societal risks and call for

13:00

a fair digital marketplace. So that's exactly what we're talking about

13:03

when it comes to online shopping or as well when it comes to

13:06

targeted advertisements. These are things that sure do make

13:10

our lives a little bit more easy and

13:14

a little easier in the sense of we have access to everything at our fingertips,

13:18

but at the same time, there is a cost that we are paying for it. And this

13:21

is exactly what the DSA is coming in to protect us from.

13:25

Yeah, I just like kind of find it so fascinating how

13:29

like with the invention of internet and obviously the progression of

13:32

it, like there's just so much that has happened since.

13:36

And we kind of like, we basically like we really

13:40

are the like guinea pigs and everything. So we're like the trial. only

13:44

now are regulations coming in kind of trying

13:48

to protect us. And I do feel like even stuff like the DSA Act,

13:52

like 30, 40, 50 years from now, they're going to reflect back

13:55

on these times and be like, some of the practices companies were doing back

13:59

in the day were crazy. You know, like the fact that they can

14:02

get to know your online experience to such an extent that

14:05

they can manipulate you, not only in what they show you, but the prices

14:09

and so on. it's quite disgusting when you did that bluntly

14:13

and I think this would be one of those things that will be

14:16

reflected upon later in life where people were going to be like

14:19

the fact that these things were allowed is beyond understandable

14:25

Exactly, and I think it's important to keep in mind that at the end of this podcast

14:29

episode, we're actually going to get into these critics of

14:32

the DSA right now. And what are the sort of shortcomings of

14:35

it? Because I think that even though it's a great first step into the

14:38

world of regulating data and regulating the digital world

14:42

itself, it's still not a step that is fully

14:46

comprehensive of everything that regulation should be comprehensive

14:50

about. But perhaps let's get into breaking it down a little bit more.

14:54

Essentially the DSA regulates these four types of

14:57

services. And what it does is that it categorized different platforms

15:01

based on where they stand in this sort of pyramid. So first

15:04

you have intermediary services. So intermediary services

15:08

are offering network infrastructure, like internet access providers or

15:12

domain name registrars, or also like the hosting services

15:16

for websites and things of sorts. Up next, you have the hosting services.

15:20

And these hosting services are like cloud and web hosting. And

15:24

then up after that, you have online platforms. And online

15:28

platforms just include sort of the

15:31

sellers and the consumers of like inside online marketplaces

15:35

or app stores, or just social media platforms as

15:38

a whole. And then at the top, top of the pyramid, you have very

15:42

large online platforms, so VLOPs. VLOPs

15:46

pose the particular risk in the context of this discussion because

15:50

of the dissemination of illegal content and the societal harms

15:53

that they could bring up. So these very large online platforms are

15:57

platforms with above 45 million users. So

16:00

here we're talking about like Amazon, we're talking about Google or Alphabet, but

16:04

we're also talking about YouTube, TikTok and Snapchat. And

16:08

of course, all of the meta associated products other than threads, because

16:12

threads has been an immense I'll just say,

16:19

I could totally think like Zonkoburg named

16:23

it Threads, like, oh, it's a threat to Twitter. And now he's fucking punching

16:28

Yeah, I do think honestly, there's quite some strategy behind the

16:31

whole threads existing. And I think that that could be a very interesting thing

16:35

that we could dive into into another podcast. But for the

16:38

context of this podcast, let's just quickly outline all the

16:41

digital services that are concerned by this for now. So

16:45

we have YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn,

16:49

Snapchat, and Pinterest. We, of course, as well have X,

16:53

or formerly known as Twitter. We have the Google App Store, the

16:57

Apple App Store, Wikimedia, so that's Wikipedia and

17:00

everything like that, Amazon Marketplace, Google Shopping, AliExpress,

17:04

Booking.com, Zalando for shopping, Google

17:08

Maps, Google Search, and Bing. So as you can see, we

17:11

have search engines. At the same time, we have online marketplaces. At

17:15

the same time, we have social media platforms. Now, maybe

17:19

we should probably get into what does this all mean for users?

17:23

Already, Peter, let's maybe, actually, before we get into that, let's

17:26

maybe discuss these digital services. Do you see some digital

17:30

services that could be maybe added to this list, or do

17:35

I mean, I think it's quite comprehensive, especially because like, I

17:38

mean, like companies like Alphabet or Amazon, they

17:42

have so many, like, you know, like if you take Alphabet, you have anything from

17:45

YouTube to Google Maps to Google. And when you stretch

17:48

it out like this, I feel like it covered most, you

17:52

know, obviously As different platforms become popular in

17:55

different areas, this is just within the EU. I'm

17:59

sure that there is a lot of things for Asia, like, I

18:02

don't know, Alibaba websites and so on, that obviously are outside of

18:05

the reach. But I think that, yeah, the big ones are covered.

18:10

Obviously, there's a lot of not as big

18:13

as Alphabet, but a bit smaller ones that maybe should have been targeted. But

18:18

Of course. And I think what's important to keep in mind throughout this is

18:22

the DSA is only regulation for inside of Europe. So

18:25

there could be platforms that exist outside of Europe. And

18:29

these platforms, if they do start being active here with above

18:32

50 million users, 45 million users,

18:36

then they become this very large online platform that is regulated by the

18:41

And I think it's going to be a thing that's going to be needed

18:45

to be addressed, because as many platforms are going to enter Europe,

18:49

like even what TikTok did. TikTok is theoretically a

18:52

Chinese company that just got insane popularity within

18:56

Europe and America a few years ago. And I'm sure many companies

19:00

like this will come to exist, especially as innovations in

19:03

countries like South Korea, China, Japan. and also

19:09

Of course, of course. Now, I just want to remind everyone listening that

19:13

we work very, very hard with a team of dedicated volunteers to provide

19:17

this podcast. So we do our research before, we

19:21

try to prepare you with essentially the most important insights about

19:24

the topic that we are discussing. And so far, we completely

19:28

and really appreciate all the support that you've shown us. not

19:31

only in the DMs, but also by downloading our podcast. And

19:35

we want to ask you for one last thing, which is, please, if

19:38

you haven't done so yet, set up our podcast on Download All Episodes,

19:42

and that will really just help us and support us. Thank you

19:45

so much for listening and stick on for the rest of this episode to

19:48

learn more about the Digital Services Act. We

19:54

briefly mentioned earlier dark patterns and can

19:58

we maybe like get into what these dark patterns are and

20:03

Yeah I feel like for me it's kind of you

20:06

know like it's the classic thing you would talk about like first year of

20:09

university when you hang out with friends and someone would bring up

20:12

like oh this year the boys trip should be in Spain and

20:16

then you would surf online later and you would get like a resort all

20:19

inclusive somewhere in Spain. And I think it's just about like

20:23

kind of almost like your online activities being tracked

20:26

to such an extent that you almost feel like someone's listening through

20:30

your devices and knows exactly what you're talking about. And it's kind of

20:33

like you think they're like steps ahead where Just

20:37

as your mind just gets introduced to certain products or certain ideas,

20:40

you know, like I had it the same with like, let's say working out. I started

20:44

working out and as I was getting myself ready to work out during that

20:47

six month span, when you go every few weeks, like I'm going to start, you know,

20:50

like the ads were just ahead of me. They were just kept on being like,

20:56

That's the thing. I think you're slightly getting the idea of dark patterns a

21:00

bit wrong. So it's not about these personalized advertisements

21:03

that you get. Instead, it's about the interface that you actually interact with.

21:07

So a dark pattern is a user interface that has been carefully crafted

21:11

to trick users into doing things such as buying an overpriced insurance

21:15

with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills and things like that.

21:19

It's like, imagine you're on Amazon Web Store and as you're

21:22

about to, you choose your products and stuff like that, you're about to click. Yes,

21:25

it tells you, would you like to sign up for Prime delivery? You sign up for Prime delivery,

21:29

then you're automatically added to this newsletter. And that newsletter is something that

21:33

keeps on sending you every day about the latest products. And you're like, what the fuck,

21:36

this is not relevant. So not only is that part of the dark pattern, but

21:39

it could also be the aspect of them making it so difficult for you

21:42

to cancel your subscription. I understand where you're coming from. So it's about

21:46

these design choices that are made by the platform itself in order

21:49

to give you a limited choice, but to keep you on their platform to

21:53

increase your retention, but also to increase the amount of money that they gain

21:59

So it's even stuff like, for example, like booking a holiday and them sending

22:02

you everything related to the holiday from like, let's say you just bought a

22:06

flight ticket, but then they send you things

22:09

like, you should check out this hotel, you probably should rent a

22:12

car. They send you a newsletter constantly suggesting different

22:16

restaurants and things you should do in that area, kind of leaving you alone.

22:20

all you went in to do was to to buy your plane ticket

22:24

and instead now you're getting an email about the best hotel and you're like well I

22:29

Yeah and it's kind of crazy actually how to what

22:32

extent this has been taken you know where right now like

22:36

you really do need a membership slash you need to give your personal information

22:39

for almost everything you do You know, so even like, let's say the

22:42

gym membership I gave as an example to, I had to register, give

22:46

my email and so on. And now not only do I constantly get

22:49

emails about like try out or working out program or try out

22:53

this spinning class or try out this equipment or you can upgrade

22:57

your members, you know, but it's just a gym, you know what I mean? Like,

23:00

like, I just wanted to work out. I didn't need all this package to come

23:05

Yeah, yeah. And so that is sometimes where these

23:08

dark patterns can interact with elements of

23:11

dark patterns in our actual social reality that we live in. But

23:15

so let's just keep in mind that dark patterns are these patterns

23:19

that appear within a user interface. So we're talking about a website or

23:25

So let's get back into this key protection for users. And

23:30

in this exploration of the Digital Services Act, it has these profound

23:33

implications on us as users ourselves. So how

23:37

does this DSA actually protect us? Well, Before doing

23:41

this research for this podcast actually, I would always click I

23:44

agree when I'm asked for cookies, which

23:48

I was doing completely blindfoldedly. And now, apparently the

23:51

DSA is stepping in itself within this process. What does

23:54

this protection actually look like? Well, it outlaws these dark patterns,

23:58

those cunning design tactics that trick us into subscription subscriptions

24:02

we never wanted or sharing more data than we intended. For instance,

24:06

you will no longer find yourself accidentally opting

24:09

into a newsletter thanks to a pre-ticked box hidden at the bottom of the

24:12

page. That just simply won't happen under the DSA. But it also

24:16

places a ban on targeted advertising that is using sensitive data

24:21

or the data of minors. So Peter, in case you plan on having any

24:29

No clash of clans currency. But this also

24:33

means a significant shift in how ads reach us themselves, which

24:36

ensures that not only will a 15 year old not be bombarded

24:40

with inappropriate diet ads based on their browsing history, but

24:43

it also means that overall for businesses, it may be

24:49

Yeah, like we talked about earlier, I feel like the foundation is

24:53

definitely there. I think this is, to be honest, the first thing

24:57

that comes to mind as we talk about this thing is that it was just

25:02

Yeah man, we've been on the internet for our entire lives and

25:05

up until today is the day when they decide to

25:10

Yeah, like it's really, you know, like, like I said, in the future, they

25:13

will definitely look at this and be like, took them long enough, you know, it's

25:16

like something like, this is our ozone layer. Remember, however,

25:20

I was freaking out about the ozone layer until it was too late. And now

25:23

it kind of recovered. Hopefully, this would be something similar. I'm

25:26

not sure if it actually recovered. Oh, actually it did a bit. Yeah. The

25:30

ozone layer is shrinking. Like there's a thousand of

25:33

different problems with climate change, but the ozone layer, like the

25:39

Okay. Okay. To be honest, my expertise is not in that topic, but

25:43

if we do want to talk about anything digital, then I think we're both here for that.

25:48

But that's the thing, like Peter, I don't know if you remember, but we posted a

25:51

few reels and TikToks a few times and we saw that there were some topics

25:55

that were very hard for us to talk about, right? And these topics that

25:58

as soon as we would talk about them, they would sort of, the reels would perform a

26:04

Yeah, not only did they perform

26:07

less, they sometimes got taken down. And what's so interesting to

26:11

me is so like the ones that come when we were talking about the Manosphere

26:15

episode with Andrew Tate, every time you would mention Andrew

26:18

Tate in any shape or form on TikTok, like for us,

26:22

the videos will be taken down, which is kind of crazy because like a

26:26

lot of the content we made were quite critical

26:29

of him. So it wasn't even promoting his types of behavior. And

26:33

it's just crazy that like it gets taken down immediately without really

26:40

Yeah, and we were quite critical of

26:43

it, but we were also trying to bring awareness to the Manosphere, to

26:48

Yeah, and not only was it about the dangers to the Manosphere, it

26:52

was just like promoting or a similar example was the

26:55

one about porn and how we talked about like the problems with porn

26:59

and the problems men

27:02

in general face with porn addiction and so on. And those

27:06

content, just because we would mention porn so much in the One

27:09

Minute Trio, would also be taken down or not perform as

27:13

well, just because it was such a sensitive topic. And not

27:16

only did we feel like spreading awareness about these types of topics that

27:20

we feel like are really important, but also the fact that they gave us

27:23

zero information on why they did, except the classic term

27:27

like this violated our terms and conditions, really didn't

27:30

allow us to post these types of content without really understanding

27:36

And in case you as the listener, if you're ever puzzled over

27:40

why your posts vanished into the digital ether, well, the

27:43

DSA, the Digital Services Act actually mandates platforms to

27:46

close these statements of reasons and for content

27:50

removal. So this is injecting much needed transparency

27:53

into the opaque world of content moderation. Clearly, as you can

27:57

see from our experiences, but also as you may have experienced yourself, sometimes

28:00

these posts are removed and we don't clearly understand why. So once

28:04

this does happen, based on the DSA, TikTok, Instagram, Meta,

28:07

Google are all supposed to release these statements of reasons, which

28:11

clearly explain why this post violated their terms. So examples

28:15

in action in compliance with the DSA, Meta expanded its ad ad

28:18

library. Now it archives all ads targeting EU citizens for

28:22

a year, allowing public scrutiny like never before. And

28:25

I think this is quite good. Like I imagine taking a look at all the advertising data

28:29

Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, Meta has

28:33

been, at least in my life since I was like eight, nine, you

28:36

know, so they know so much things about me and you and

28:39

all its users for so long. And not only like in terms of like their

28:43

personal, like what they like, what they follow, what type of

28:46

content gets them going. So much information, they almost

28:49

probably don't know what to do with it. Well, they do manipulate us, but you

28:54

Exactly, and now TikTok as well introduced a new reporting feature for

28:58

illegal content and expanded its transparency around content moderation

29:01

decisions, empowering users with more information about the

29:05

content they consume and report. And guess what? Google

29:08

has actually done the same in its quest for DSA compliance. It engaged

29:12

with over a thousand experts to bolster its platform's

29:15

safety and introduced significant changes, including more

29:19

detailed reporting and appeals processes for content moderation

29:22

decisions. So all of these moves by these major platforms exemplify

29:26

the DSA's impact, which is pushing towards a digital

29:30

ecosystem where user rights are not just respected, but

29:34

I mean, yeah. And not only that, I mean, like it's, look, credit

29:37

to, I guess, these companies a bit for making these types of changes because

29:41

they were forced into it. But I will not forget the amount of

29:45

lobbying and things. like they took part in to

29:48

prevent this from happening. So like a big reason why

29:51

the DSA Act took so long to be passed is because of all

29:54

the kind of pushback from these big tech companies

29:58

for so fucking long, you know? So even though like, fine, they're changing now,

30:02

and I guess a bit of credit to them, ultimately, like

30:05

they were forced into it. It's not like they were voluntarily like, we're

30:11

And even now we still see, and we'll be discussing this later in

30:15

our episode, but you still see a lot of these platforms are too

30:18

big to fail. So it doesn't really matter to them the fact that

30:21

there is so many regulations. They've gained so much market share. They've

30:24

gained so much money. And so they have so much revenue that like, sure,

30:28

we can take a 6% dent on our overall income.

30:35

yeah like they'll just beat around the bush as we say and they will

30:38

just do their best to comply with the regulations while

30:42

also benefiting themselves that's why like as

30:45

we'll get into later like the DSA is a good start but

30:49

we have a really really long way to go especially factoring on

30:54

factoring the fact that even the people that are working for

30:57

Europe that are in charge of passing these types of regulations, I

31:01

would bet they're probably outnumbered 1 to 1,000, 1 to

31:06

5,000 in terms of how many people work for Google, TikTok,

31:09

Meta, all these platforms actively working together to

31:13

find loopholes in the system and pass legislation and

31:18

lobby and do all these types of things to

31:21

not kind of get the DSA Act and

31:27

Yeah. But to those listening, help us spread the word.

31:31

Log into our website on www.fikr.studio. Make

31:34

sure to download this episode and share it with someone passionate about

31:38

safe, fair digital spaces. And let's foster a

31:41

well-informed community. ready to advocate for their rights

31:45

online. So let's dive into how the digital giants are adapting and

31:48

what it means for the future of digital marketing, content creation, and

31:52

all of our online interactions. We tried to provide this section only

31:56

to provide some things that are relevant to you if you're

31:59

listening. So major platforms like Meta, Google, and

32:03

TikTok have been quick to align with the DSA's requirements. showcasing

32:06

a commitment to enhanced user safety and transparency. But

32:10

of course, this is to take into consideration that there has been

32:13

quite a bit of public pressure for these platforms to be

32:17

protecting our rights, and hence why they're showing like

32:20

they're trying to work with these regulations. Now,

32:24

Meta's expansion, Meta has widened its ad library access,

32:27

as we've mentioned before, and now it allows users to view all

32:31

the ads run in the EU for up to a year. And

32:34

this, I think, is quite a significant move towards advertising transparency.

32:38

But more so, also, TikTok has these new reporting features. They

32:42

introduced detailed features for reporting illegal content, making

32:45

it easier for users to help maintain a safe online environment. Additionally,

32:49

their efforts to explain content moderation decisions mark a step

32:53

towards the future of platform user communication. And

32:56

lastly, Google's consultations with over 1,000 experts

33:00

to reform its content moderation processes illustrates a

33:03

comprehensive approach to meeting the DSA's standards setting

33:07

a precedent for how platforms can incorporate external insights into

33:11

their policies. So what we can see here is that since the DSA sort

33:15

of required these platforms to hire these external auditors,

33:18

now platforms have to work in combination with these auditors to

33:22

use the insights that they've provided them to have a better content moderation strategy,

33:26

while at the same time still upholding a certain standard for

33:31

Yeah. I mean, like we talked about earlier, it's

33:35

just so hard to give these companies a praise because

33:39

I just can't forget how opposed they were over

33:43

the years and how difficult they made all these policies

33:47

being passed and so on. And the fact that they make everyone's life hell.

33:50

is just completely on them. With that being said, adding

33:54

the 1,000 DSA cooperatives is,

33:57

I think, a great touch. What scares me a bit is what

34:01

the role of things like lobbying and so on will have in terms of these

34:05

experts doing their jobs and really holding these types of

34:09

Of course. And I think with lobbying, it's always been a force that's been really beneath

34:13

the shadows. It's not really something that's in the black and white. It's a lot more in

34:16

the gray matter of things. So because of that, I think it's always difficult to

34:19

pinpoint exactly where this lobbying is being done. And it takes a lot more

34:23

of a critical understanding of the whole landscape in order to be like, well,

34:26

right, these platforms are actually lobbying for these things and users

34:30

are lobbying for these other things. In this case, I think the DSA is a great sort

34:33

of first step towards regulating all of this. And it's definitely a better step

34:37

than what the US has done for internal regulations. And

34:41

it's definitely one of the best steps that's been done globally in

34:44

terms of regulating content and protecting users for their rights

34:47

and privacy. And it's essentially taking the GDPR laws to a

34:51

step beyond that to protect content moderation, but as well

34:56

Yeah, I agreed. You know, like, like I said, ultimately, it's

35:00

criticizing something that it is ultimately very, very beneficial.

35:04

And it's so funny whenever, whenever you use America as an example, EU

35:08

really seems like it's going like it's miles ahead, you know, like

35:12

in terms of regulations, I'm pretty sure that America doesn't

35:16

even have a privacy act as of speaking or as

35:19

of recording this podcast. So it just, yeah, America's

35:24

Absolutely. And I think this evolution of the DSA could lead to,

35:28

you were talking about this a bit earlier, about authenticity within

35:32

our online interactions. And I think arguably it could lead to a little more authentic engagement

35:36

between brands and audiences themselves. As the reliance of this

35:39

sensitive data for targeting decreases, it encourages marketers

35:43

to find more innovative ways to connect with their audiences. So in case you're

35:46

listening right now and you are a marketer or you're engaged in the digital sphere

35:50

for persuasive reasons, make sure to keep this in mind. Keep in

35:53

mind how you're not necessarily allowed to use dark patterns anymore or

35:57

trickery, and instead try to come up with innovative ethical ways

36:00

to be able to connect to users and to your audiences, to

36:06

Yeah, it's going to be like a really interesting free for all, especially now,

36:10

because as much as it's going to raise authenticity, there's

36:14

also going to be a lot of people that are going to try working around it. So

36:17

it's always interesting what these types of big regulations get

36:20

past, what like humanity does in terms of

36:23

how they work around it. Some people will probably go down the super

36:27

authentic route, or some people will just do everything to

36:30

their power to like not go against regulations,

36:34

but do those shady practices like getting to know their consumers to

36:38

Of course. How do you think our online habits or let's say

36:44

Yeah, I don't know. It's really interesting. I think,

36:49

like you said earlier, I think a lot of people will just go

36:52

purely authentic and hope that like, some

36:56

sort of like authenticity and honesty will be rewarded.

37:00

Maybe that's a very naive way of thinking about things, but

37:03

you kind of even see it online. Like there's a lot of like Instagram

37:07

accounts and stuff that go like, hi, I'm this web

37:11

developer. I made a game and so far no

37:14

one's using it. Could you please help me out? And, you know, and it

37:17

just comes from the heart. And then that game explodes because

37:21

people just kind of appreciate the person's honesty and hard work, you

37:24

know. So with these types of things, if the internet goes into that

37:27

route, I think that would be absolutely amazing. But I don't,

37:32

I don't know. It's difficult, you know, like ultimately it's difficult to

37:35

make these types of claims, whether this is going to be the case. I hope

37:41

I think I might actually start reading the whole data that

37:44

they have available on the ad library. This is

37:47

not only to feed the nerd within me, but I also think that

37:51

it's going to help us as professionally, like I'm engaged in

37:54

digital marketing. I think it's going to be interesting to help develop like

37:58

content strategies that don't necessarily rely that heavily on

38:01

hyper-targeted ads. So I'm very curious to explore the

38:04

possibilities that are there, especially by taking a look at the ad

38:08

library. And in the future, I actually hope to dive into this on the

38:11

Digital Storm podcast itself. I would love to dive into the

38:14

ad library and then try to connect it with how we can use the insights from

38:18

there to as well help develop our content strategies. But

38:21

I'm also curious to see if these platforms will become a little bit more creative in

38:25

engaging the users. So instead of using these dark patterns and

38:29

the sort of the negative and unbeneficial sort

38:32

of persuasive methods to keep us on their platforms. Now, could

38:36

there be an easier route of providing us that

38:40

service? And could it lead to a renaissance of content that truly

38:43

resonates rather than just retargets people? So again,

38:47

coming back to that authenticity element to it, I think it just helps to

38:51

make the internet more true to the social reality that we

38:54

live in. It's a reality where authenticity is valued and

38:57

where personality is also something that is important. We want to be building

39:00

brands off of strong ethical standards, but also strong values

39:06

Like what you just said made me think of, did you see maybe how Zuckerberg

39:10

reviewed the Apple headset? How he made like a video and

39:14

he was just talking about the Apple headset. I'm the first to criticize Meta

39:17

and Zuckerberg, but like it did give me like a bit of an authentic,

39:21

like he was like, look, this, this is good. This is bad. Our,

39:24

our, our headset is so much cheaper and off, you know, it was

39:27

so like authentic. speaking from him, that in

39:30

a way I kind of had to give him credit and I would love to

39:34

see these types of activities more. The problem is

39:37

also because I feel like everyday users like me and you and

39:41

the rest of the listeners, we got so fed up with the whole

39:44

ecosystem of online tracking and dark practices, as

39:48

you mentioned. I think it's, I think it's a

39:51

time where like they send you quizzes, you know, like at the

39:54

end, like when you're on a website and they give you a survey. I'm just so fed

39:57

up with all these companies that don't even consider answering it. So it's going to

40:00

be interesting now when these practices are shaped that

40:04

whether users like me and you that like certain brands are

40:07

going to be like, you know what, I am willing to answer this

40:10

survey and give my personal data to this company. because

40:14

they deserve it in a way, you know. It's going to be interesting how it's

40:17

going to reshape and it's going to feel like I'll be a bit

40:20

more considerate on who I give my information to,

40:24

but also like sometimes I will be more willing to answer these

40:27

type of surveys than before. I don't think I've ever answered a

40:33

Yeah, and if you're intrigued by how the digital landscape is evolving under

40:37

the DSA, make sure to share your thoughts in this episode with a friend. Let's

40:40

keep the conversation going about building a safer, more transparent digital world.

40:44

Now, to move on to more of a conversation to

40:47

meet your needs as the people listening. First off, I imagine that many

40:50

people here are curious about empowering the digital careers.

40:54

And with the DSA and the DSA's regulation on targeted advertising are

40:58

seen And it's not stringent enough, with critiques arguing

41:01

that loopholes may still allow for manipulative practices. As an example, despite

41:05

these concerns, the DSA still requires platforms like Google and Facebook to

41:08

offer more transparency in their ad targeting mechanisms. For digital marketers,

41:12

for example, understanding these transparency requirements can be leveraged to

41:16

design more ethical campaigns that build trust with their audience. I

41:19

really recommend that you do stay updated with online platform-specific ad

41:23

policies, as well as incorporate the DSA's transparency principles into

41:27

your digital marketing strategy. And I think that can ensure that if

41:30

you are going into a career with marketing or with digital marketing, that

41:33

you do take into consideration these regulations as they do end

41:37

up shaping to a large extent what you're able to do online.

41:40

Yeah, for sure. And I feel like, I mean, one thing I wanted to add

41:44

to all of that we've been talking about is that it is like

41:47

the DSA Act is quite a nice thing. I feel

41:50

like especially for protecting consumers and so on. But it is,

41:54

especially when talking about content moderation and so on, it

41:57

is something to note that like it can very easily be turned

42:00

into something that becomes a bit more problematic. So even though I

42:04

trust the act as it is now, it can very easily

42:07

be used. to censor or to avoid criticisms

42:11

in the future. So even though like it's presented as this package deal

42:15

that addresses companies and so on, I wouldn't be surprised in

42:18

a few years, like with something quite controversial happens, we

42:22

again, this is used to kind of censor some type of information as

42:29

Of course. And I think another concern that many people have, at least we're involved in

42:32

the space of digital literacy. So it's about educating people about how to

42:35

critically use the technology around them. And I think what did this DSA

42:39

specifically lacks measures for is for user education and

42:42

digital literacy and safe online practices. It's a lot of stuff

42:45

to regulate these big companies, but it's not about regulations that will also

42:49

help them educate their users. So just as

42:53

an example, the Act mandates platforms to make their terms clearer

42:56

and more accessible. But at the same time, It's

43:00

the space where we need to have more community leaders that fill

43:04

this gap by developing digital literacy workshops that use simplified

43:07

terms of service as a base for teaching critical online skills. Because right now,

43:11

the problem we still face is that this whole digital sphere is way too complex

43:15

for us to understand anything about. And so it feels always so overwhelming.

43:18

So we need this guidance. And so far, there is no regulation that

43:22

makes these platforms provide us with that guidance. And it really only

43:28

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think like a big inspiration for us

43:31

to with FIKA was just the fact that creating like

43:36

a platform slash organization that like champions

43:40

educating people about these types of topics is really important. And

43:43

I feel like we kind of, you know, parents and so on were very

43:47

good in teaching their children about the real life, you know. So

43:50

if some stranger comes up to you and goes like, here's a free cookie or

43:54

like if someone tries, you know, everyone's quite skeptical. well

43:57

same with us too especially when we were younger when you're online

44:01

you're just beyond naive you know you just press everything

44:04

without really thinking especially when I was younger and I see

44:08

certain people even the way they do they accept everything they

44:11

don't think they search for website even like the links they

44:14

press on you know the amount of times I've seen a friend been sent an email

44:18

with a link and they would just press on it immediately without really

44:21

thinking and I'm like boom you could have just fallen for a phishing scam

44:25

you know and I think That's where we kind of come in where

44:28

we hopefully aim to like serve as a compass helping people

44:31

navigate the digital storm and kind of apply these what parents

44:35

would do to their children when they were in the real life kind

44:38

of apply to the online space and use this space also for to

44:43

Of course. And I think within this and the lack of focus of digital literacy in

44:47

the DSA itself, I think there's quite some skepticism overall that exists about

44:50

how these rules are enforced in regards to the

44:54

protection of minors. As we've seen, they have banned the targeted

44:57

advertising towards minors and the DSA

45:01

does compel platforms to implement these more sort of robust age

45:05

verification processes. It still lacks that aspect

45:08

of educating these minors about ethical use of these online platforms.

45:12

So I think this is exactly where it's time for a bit more community leadership,

45:16

both locally, but also at the international scale. How can we

45:20

protect children? How can we help parents protect their children?

45:24

And I think this is a great opportunity overall to open up that

45:27

discussion, to make it something taboo-free when we're discussing about the effects of

45:30

porn on individuals. Can we have that actually be a

45:34

conversation free of taboos where people can talk about ways to

45:39

sort of navigate this whole landscape of pornography online

45:42

and making sure that we stay not only on the ethical side, but also on

45:49

Yeah, for sure. And I wouldn't even say only with porn, but in general, we

45:52

kind of should strive for online community

45:56

and accountability. So for everyday users, you

46:00

know, to kind of like understand what they post, let's

46:03

say online and so on, how this impacts humanity,

46:07

you know, we're all feeding into this together. Like everyone's part

46:10

of the problem, whether it's us two, whether it's everyday users.

46:14

And I think kind of like, revisiting your relationship

46:18

with the online space is going to be one of the fundamental practices

46:23

Of course. And I think, you know, the real challenge of

46:26

this whole DSA lies in the resources and the

46:30

technical expertise required to monitor this compliance across

46:33

all the different member states and these all

46:37

complex digital platforms. which in a way for me, this

46:41

does raise certain concerns about the practicality of

46:44

the enforcement at scale. So is it really that practical

46:48

and is it doable for the EU to be monitoring all

46:51

of this and enforcing it at such a large scale being across

46:54

the entire European Union? So I think within all of this discussion, it

46:58

will come down a lot to these individual member states and

47:02

individual European Union states to actually

47:05

enforce this regulation and make sure that it's adapted to But as well,

47:09

when we're talking about outside of the European Union, perhaps it's

47:12

time for countries like Morocco and countries within the African Union

47:16

or in the Middle East and Asia and in South America to also

47:19

start using a bit more of these regulations and use

47:23

this DSA as a good standard to employ their

47:28

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. I think it's a good step.

47:33

But ultimately, I kind of look at this online space

47:37

in a way like, for example, climate change, which is that, yeah, you can

47:40

protect certain regions, and that's great. But ultimately, we're

47:43

all in this together. So even if let's say Europe,

47:47

let's say passes the types of bills, you know, the world is so interconnected

47:51

today that it's really within everyone's interest that everyone is

47:55

protected online. And not only is that,

47:58

that means that like countries like let's say Morocco or other countries in

48:02

Africa or South America or wherever, should be more

48:06

considerate. That also means that regions like Europe

48:09

should also feel more accountable to help other countries and

48:13

kind of push for these bills to be passed and kind of

48:16

make this safe space just like anything else that impacts everyone

48:20

Of course, and I think although the DSA aims to create a safer digital environment,

48:24

by reducing misinformation and illegal content and all of this.

48:28

I think the long-term societal impacts will largely depend on

48:32

the consistency and the rigor of the enforcement itself. If

48:36

we are not enforcing this across member states, but also across the

48:39

world, then it will definitely impact

48:44

the platform's commitment to upholding this spirit of regulation

48:47

and of ethics and privacy and security. I completely

48:51

agree. Yeah, and I think as well with

48:55

the DSA, I think it's like platforms have

48:58

started to engage with more third party fact checkers and increased

49:02

transparency reports. And this shows a little bit

49:05

more of a recognition towards their influential role in

49:08

shaping the public opinion and societal norms. But At

49:12

the same time, critics argue that without a fundamental change

49:16

in their business models, which prioritizes engagement over accuracy, the

49:20

societal impact may remain contentious and we

49:23

could still have this whole problem that we're dealing with right now of

49:28

There's definitely, like you said, a lot of things to be addressed. I

49:31

just think that it's a good foundation and I think it's

49:35

definitely set up the basic for it to

49:38

be successful. Now it's going to be really into the details, the

49:42

corporations, as well as how these policies get reinforced for

49:45

these things to really work out as intended. As we know,

49:49

how these things tend to work is that like, okay, yeah, the

49:52

theory on practice is amazing. Now, when it comes to actually

49:56

applying it and actually making useful

49:59

suggestions and useful changes into their day to day lives.

50:03

It's a different story, you know, so the classic example, like

50:07

to make it a parallel example with climate change always is that, like

50:11

with climate change, you know, it's been an ongoing issue

50:15

for so so long. And yeah, there's been different rules and regulations and

50:18

so on. But a lot of things took way too long, like

50:22

for example, the removal full of plastic bags or how

50:25

many companies go like, oh, we're going to reduce this by

50:29

10% in the next 10 years and it never happens. And, you know, so I

50:32

hope like this time Europe really grabs them and not

50:36

just kind of go with what they're saying and kind of like pass this law

50:42

And it's clear that the DSA's introduction is just the beginning of

50:45

this larger conversation about the role of tech giants in our

50:49

digital lives. And I think the real test will be in this ongoing implementation

50:53

and the dynamic between these regulatory bodies and ambitions

50:57

and the realities of digital governance. I'm really excited about

51:01

this future that we have upcoming, and I just wanted to engage

51:04

with you a little bit as the listener. If you have any thoughts on how these tech

51:08

giants are responding to the DSA or opinions on

51:12

what more they could do, make sure to join the conversation on our social media

51:15

channels, but also go to our website on www.fikr.studio and

51:20

let's keep this dialogue going and push for a digital ecosystem that

51:23

respects and protects all users. Thank you so much

51:27

for listening. This was Yunus and Peter

51:33

I like how you started with your name yet again. It's okay. When

51:37

we start a podcast, you'll get there eventually. Okay,

51:42

but we would just like to thank everyone for listening. I

51:46

would kindly ask you to download the episode and check out our Instagram

51:49

at the Digital Storm podcast. If you want to find out more

51:53

about the Digital Service Act, check out our website at fikra.studio, where

51:57

we publish articles offering key insights on the DSA, as

52:00

well as many other topics. Thank you so much for listening. We

52:04

have been your compass helping you navigate through the digital storm. Peace.