0:34

Hello and welcome to the Digital Works podcast

0:37

, the podcast about digital stuff in

0:39

the cultural sector . My

0:46

name's Ash and in today's episode episode

0:48

41 , I chat with Hayden Coridus

0:50

. Hayden is a digital marketing

0:52

consultant and was previously part of Arts

0:54

Council England's Digital Culture Network

0:57

. He was their tech champion , focused

0:59

on social media . Before that

1:01

, he worked in both agencies and client side

1:03

with brands like Unilever , super Drug , coca-cola

1:05

and more . Hayden and I discussed

1:08

the fragmentation of social platforms , understanding

1:10

your audience , being thoughtful about the value

1:13

that you can offer to that audience , the

1:15

value of storytelling and loads more . Let's

1:17

enjoy it . Hi

1:26

, hayden , thanks for joining us , thanks for having me . So

1:28

I want to start a bit with

1:31

your background , your career . I

1:33

know you through your work with the Digital

1:36

Culture Network , but I know

1:38

you've worked in agencies and freelance and

1:40

your freelance again . Now , where

1:43

does your story start .

1:44

So ultimately , I used to be a musician

1:46

. So I worked in a nine

1:48

to five , a normal job , worked in retail etc , etc . I

1:50

wanted to do music . I was lucky enough

1:53

to tour the UK and perform

1:55

a glass , to bring all those kind of cool things . But

1:58

when I hit 30 , I was like , okay , I'm 30 years

2:00

old now I haven't quite broke that

2:02

ceiling . What am I doing in my life ? So

2:05

I decided that I couldn't be an intern at 30 . I used

2:07

to watch Friends a lot I don't know if people know

2:09

Friends , but I used to watch Friends and Chandler decided

2:11

to be an intern at 13 . I was like that's

2:14

not going to work for me . So I

2:16

very randomly just started working with all my old

2:18

music colleagues and people I knew , even in the music industry

2:20

, doing social and digital for them . I used to manage

2:23

all the social accounts for my band

2:25

and stuff that I was in . That

2:27

then led to me working an agency . I

2:29

had a friend at an agency that said I can come and do your socials

2:31

Again . Ironically she said , oh , we've just

2:33

hired somebody . A few of them came to me Like

2:35

a week earlier you'd have been like , okay , literally

2:38

three months later she came back to me and said oh , this person

2:40

wasn't the greatest , can you come in ? And

2:42

literally that was my agency journey . I started working in agencies

2:44

, working commercially . So I worked with Coca-Cola , we

2:46

did a project with Dior there . I

2:48

then moved from there to another

2:50

agency where I was working with Superdrag

2:53

Enterprise , unilever . And then I went

2:55

into the Arts Council working with the Digital Culture

2:57

Network , which I was one of the founding members . So we started

2:59

to kind of set up the Digital Culture Network and went

3:01

from there .

3:02

What sort of time are we talking about here ? It sounds

3:05

like probably early 2010s , late

3:07

2000s .

3:08

For me , my whole career , yeah , so yeah , yeah

3:12

, probably about something in and around that

3:14

time .

3:14

Yeah , so you've sort of ridden the wave of social

3:16

as it's become a really central part

3:19

of how brands reach

3:21

and engage with audiences .

3:23

Exactly that . I've got a degree in marketing , advertising

3:25

, but when I went to school , I went to university Social

3:27

wasn't even a flat , it wasn't even on the people's imagination

3:30

, let alone a thing that was really happening . So it's

3:32

been a really interesting to see how it's evolved

3:34

, where it's taking it , how much

3:36

the mobile phone has evolved social

3:38

media , because even before smartphones , there's

3:40

an argument that it might not even take enough to the

3:42

way it did if there wasn't a smartphone . So even the

3:44

way things have perfectly aligned has made

3:47

it interesting .

3:48

And I think we're at quite an interesting moment as

3:51

we sit here in autumn 2023

3:54

. Twitter is on

3:56

fire and falling apart . X , sorry

4:01

, x . New things are being launched

4:03

to wildly varying degrees of success

4:05

all the time . It feels like the social landscape

4:09

, which for years was moving

4:11

towards sort of consolidation and actually there

4:13

were probably only two or three platforms

4:16

that you really needed to be on and you could service

4:18

most of your audience . It feels like that's completely

4:20

gone into reverse and things have fragmented

4:22

quite significantly . What's

4:25

your perspective on where we are right

4:28

now ? Where do you think the direction of travel

4:30

is ? It feels like a lot of people are grappling

4:32

with how they use

4:35

social now , because you can't just be on

4:37

one platform and know that that will

4:39

mean you reach 75 , 80% of your

4:41

audience .

4:42

I think the term social and

4:44

, as platforms , it's evolving . So

4:47

now people , for example , for many years I've

4:49

heard people say Spotify is a social media platform as an example

4:51

. Now people are starting Slack channels

4:53

and seeing that as a platform for social

4:56

interaction . So now it's more about you

4:58

thinking about where do I want to build a community

5:00

, when do I want to build an audience and what's

5:02

the best way for me to engage with them on whatever

5:04

platform that may be for you . So if that's a WhatsApp

5:07

channel , if that's what you want to do . If that's a Slack

5:09

channel , that's what you want to do . If that's Instagram , people

5:11

now are getting wiser and smarter to understand

5:13

it's more about how you connect with

5:15

an audience or build an audience , and then you can

5:18

decide what platform works best for you . I

5:20

always say when people say you need to build every

5:22

single platform there's 4.7

5:24

billion people on social media or something like that every

5:27

single platform , I guarantee you will have

5:29

your audience . It's just dependent on how you want to use

5:31

it . Even with the idea of Facebook

5:33

, there's no kids on there . I guarantee you there

5:35

are . But it's just about how

5:37

you , what platforms work best for you , what stories

5:39

you're trying to tell ultimately and where

5:42

your primary audience are , so that it reaches

5:44

an objective , because a lot of cultural

5:46

organizations are on social just to be on social

5:49

, without they're having an objective behind it

5:51

. So that's what ? Yeah .

5:52

And I think that that shift that you're describing

5:54

is really exciting for

5:57

the sector that we both work in , for cultural

5:59

organizations , because it sounds

6:01

like if organizations can be thoughtful

6:03

about where they are active , actually

6:05

the opportunity is probably bigger

6:08

than when everyone was on Facebook

6:11

, twitter , instagram , but that it's maybe

6:13

going to take more thought

6:15

, more analysis , more work to identify

6:18

where you need to be and how you need to engage with your

6:20

audience .

6:21

So now it comes to a point where now , hopefully

6:23

, in the culture and it's in the , the irony of

6:25

it . So I went back into the commercial sector

6:28

for about eight months to a year and

6:30

brands are not that much further ahead

6:32

. There's some incredible digital

6:34

creatives in the art sector who are doing some incredible

6:36

work . It's just that it's not profiled . In the same way . I've

6:39

worked with a brand and I won't say the brand name , but

6:41

I worked with a brand this year and their

6:43

team had very little understanding

6:45

of digital , had very little understanding

6:48

of social , but they're a global brand and

6:50

you'll think how does this even work ? How does it happen ? How

6:52

do you get into this position ? And the conversations

6:54

we're having were similar to the conversations I've

6:56

been having with art and culture organizations . So

6:58

I say all that to say that art and culture organizations

7:01

, when they see themselves and they feel like , oh , we're

7:03

so far behind , you're actually in similar

7:05

positions . So the playing field

7:07

is level . It's about you now raising your skill

7:09

set .

7:10

You've touched a bit there on the work

7:12

that you've done in the cultural sector and

7:14

I know you're a freelancer now working with cultural

7:16

clients . But you worked , as

7:18

you said earlier , as one of the founding members

7:21

of the digital culture network and

7:23

I'm interested to talk a bit about that

7:25

part of your career because the

7:27

DCN , for someone like me

7:29

, was a really good move by the Arts

7:31

Council putting money into creating

7:34

a team of experts that could serve the whole

7:36

sector , and I'm

7:38

interested in your reflections on that

7:41

time . What did you take away

7:43

from that experience ? What were some of the insights

7:45

, the learnings , the observations you had Through

7:47

your perspective ? We're working with tens , if not hundreds

7:49

, of cultural organizations and how they're

7:52

using digital and social in

7:54

particular .

7:55

The main issue and again , I'm talking to the crowd so they

7:57

understand that the issues that you've ultimately came across

7:59

when I was working at the Digital Culture Network were

8:01

capacity and the understanding

8:03

of leadership . So I understand that how leadership

8:06

would put restraints on what

8:08

could be done digitally , would be done socially

8:10

, and that just came down to understanding and that

8:12

learning piece being able to talk

8:14

to a team and showcase . So this is why you need

8:17

to maybe consider doing things like this . Another

8:19

thing that I found very surprising in one of

8:21

my colleagues , emma . She's now a smart fire

8:23

. There was a real big pushback to e-commerce

8:26

, which that took us by surprise

8:28

. It was almost you could feel it . It

8:31

was that forceful and Emma worked with some really

8:33

good and she did some great work . But just really trying to

8:36

educate the sector and educate organizations about the

8:38

power of e-commerce and although , yes , we

8:40

live in the UK , which has a funding system

8:42

, there's so many great opportunities to build

8:45

finances or build revenue from

8:47

digital which they seem to frown upon

8:49

, but I think some organizations will get . Obviously , you know

8:51

the Tank Museum are cleaning up on that sector

8:53

, but some organizations are really starting to get it . You

8:56

touched on something .

8:56

I think important there this idea

8:59

of leadership of sort of executive

9:01

teams in the sector , understanding

9:03

the value of digital

9:06

activity , you know , and digital activity manifests in

9:08

many different ways and it was interesting

9:10

that you said it felt like there was a pushback to revenue

9:12

generating activities , because my

9:14

assumption would have been that those would be the ones that would

9:16

be easiest to make the case for . But

9:19

I think social definitely

9:22

falls into the category of maybe

9:24

hard to explain sometimes If

9:26

your leadership team is maybe not super

9:29

digitally literate and they're not

9:31

maybe active on social platforms anecdotally

9:33

. I've heard that it can be a real challenge

9:35

to explain why it's

9:38

important to spend time and effort , as you

9:40

said , building your communities , engaging with those

9:42

communities 100% , and

9:44

again this is big and small again , so

9:46

it goes across the spectrum of the organizations

9:48

.

9:49

Where they struggle is , I think people have

9:52

an association with what social media as

9:54

a platform is , so they see the negative

9:57

sides of it . They see dancing videos

9:59

going viral , they see stuff like that and they assume

10:01

the virality of hits and the things will go viral

10:03

. They don't associate with themselves . So

10:06

they then think , well , what's the purpose of what we're doing

10:08

this ? I always try to tell people . Again , going back to

10:10

the 4.7 billion having people on social

10:12

media , there's what a billion or post

10:14

a day . If you see a hundred things

10:16

in your feed that have gone viral that day , that's

10:19

not even 1% of the post that's gone . So

10:22

people need to kind of really think

10:24

about social media as a . I call it like

10:26

the shop window , the shop window for your organization

10:28

. How are you enticing people to want to know more ? How

10:30

are you enticing people to find out more about your

10:32

story ? How are you educating people ? How

10:35

are you providing entertainment ? One thing that

10:37

used to drive me bar me when people used to talk about doing hybrid events

10:39

and doing a collaboration

10:41

and they would see the digital side of it mean , okay

10:44

, we're going to stream it live , but that's not what hybrid means . There's

10:46

so many different avenues and ways you can bring that campaign

10:49

to life . You can showcase okay

10:51

, maybe we're going to do a Q&A with the cast at this moment , or

10:54

maybe a museum curator is going to speak , or maybe

10:56

there's going to be an element where there can be a call

10:58

to action and people can share posts with the organization

11:00

back and forth from being at the event . Just

11:03

thinking about different ways you can engage with your audience

11:05

digitally is what seems

11:07

to be the missing part , where there's a complete blindness to

11:09

how do we use

11:11

these platforms , use these tools To

11:13

engage with people , to tell stories , and

11:15

it's more case of we've got this tool and it's a

11:17

platform to just sell , and we

11:20

don't even going to sell in a clever way . We're just going to sell and

11:23

to say come to this event , that's it .

11:26

Yeah , and that broadcast mindset does seem like

11:28

it's still quite prevalent , despite

11:31

people like you and others explaining

11:33

how that is maybe not the most effective way to be active on these

11:35

platforms .

11:37

I always compare it to . You know , when you've got that friend or family member who

11:40

only comes to you when they want something , that's what's literally what's literally what

11:42

it's like . So we're only going to our audiences when we want

11:44

to buy something . When they want them to buy nothing , we don't talk to

11:46

them . Normally , we don't generate engagement

11:48

. I did a talk for Museum Next

11:50

about fundraising and talked about the

11:52

fact that communities are expecting

11:55

you to be online . They expect organizations

11:57

to tell their stories . They're expecting to be able to go and

12:00

get that social proof and see that , yeah

12:02

, you're active online and there's active conversations and

12:05

they're seeing that you're providing value

12:07

in some way , shape or form . Social

12:09

media now competes . Tiktok is

12:11

said to be a competitor to Netflix . So

12:14

when you're seeing social media platforms in that kind

12:16

of guys , ultimately just your own TV

12:18

channel and then you can dictate

12:20

the content what's happening , what shows are happening

12:22

and it's just up to you to use it in that

12:24

way and then really build out your stories .

12:26

And we've talked there about some of the challenges

12:28

that the sector has around social activity

12:30

. But let's put

12:32

our positive hats on for a moment . You know , I

12:34

think there is a lot of really great

12:36

, entertaining , engaging , impactful

12:40

social activity from

12:42

organizations large and small

12:44

. What do you think , or where do

12:46

you think , the sector is getting it right when

12:48

it comes to being active on social platforms there ?

12:50

are some great examples . I

12:52

think the Sacra Mentor History Museum

12:54

are killing on TikTok and they focus

12:57

on one specific element of

12:59

their museum , which is their printer press and

13:01

they tell stories and they've got a clear strategy

13:03

about how they go about doing that . So they

13:06

make every single day a post about something , so

13:08

they add in value . They tell stories

13:10

around the print and around the history of what things are

13:12

happening that are trending as well . So something's happening

13:14

in the world that's relevant to them . They will tell a story

13:16

about that that relates to their print . So

13:18

I think they're doing really great things . The

13:21

Vagina Museum would bring it on X . They're

13:23

really good at using threads to tell

13:25

stories about the history of female

13:27

anatomy and things like that . Those are

13:29

the two that come to mind straight away on different platforms

13:32

. To give you an example of what that looks like Smartify

13:34

, brilliant on Instagram . Google Arts and Culture

13:36

Brilliant online . They're really good at showcasing stories . You've

13:39

got organizations like American

13:41

Ballet Society they're brilliant or American

13:43

Ballet Fair I think they're called Sydney Opera

13:46

House again , they're brilliant . They really understand

13:48

how to showcase their programming

13:50

while also talking about the events and

13:52

making people want to come to their organization

13:54

. The Barbican are doing some really cool

13:56

stuff . So there's so many organizations

13:59

now from across the world who are really championing it

14:01

, but what I find is they're few and far between

14:03

. So if there's a million

14:05

social media accounts from , also culture organizations

14:07

, maybe there's a hundred of them that are really

14:10

thinking about what they do on the platforms , which is the

14:12

biggest issue for me .

14:13

And it sounds like the thread that runs through all of those

14:15

is the organization having a really

14:17

clear understanding of their

14:20

perspective and their sort of tone

14:22

of voice , but also linking

14:24

it to something that is of value to

14:27

their audience .

14:28

Exactly , and not just that understanding the platform

14:30

features . Those

14:32

are for three different platforms , but they understand what works

14:34

really well on those platforms and the features of

14:36

the platform .

14:37

So yeah , yeah , because you can't just post

14:39

the same thing on every platform regardless

14:41

.

14:41

Exactly yeah .

14:42

And do you think there are commonalities

14:45

between the organizations

14:47

that are doing a good job ? You know

14:49

that other people can look to

14:51

and learn from and take influence from .

14:53

A hundred percent the people who are doing

14:55

. I've just been consistent . If I'm being honest with you , they've been

14:58

consistent and they've looked to your insight . Social

15:00

media doesn't have to be rocket science . It's literally look

15:02

at your insights and be consistent , and then how

15:04

you add in value to your audience . So if you

15:07

were trying to build a strategy , those would just be the three , even

15:09

if it's the top layer strategy . How can

15:11

we be consistent ? What do our insights tell us

15:13

and how do we add value to our audience ? That's

15:15

it , and then do that . And if you're consistent

15:17

across those three metrics , those three spaces

15:20

, then you will eventually come

15:22

across some success . Again , another issue

15:24

you'll find with it is that there's

15:26

an idea that it's an overnight thing and

15:29

again , you're telling a story . It will take

15:31

time , you're going to have to dabble with things . Another

15:34

kind of bad thing that we do is

15:36

that we put young people in

15:38

a place and say , oh , you're young , you can do social media go

15:40

. And yes , they probably understand social

15:43

media from a personal standpoint , but from an organizational

15:45

standpoint , from a okay , we've got objectives

15:47

to reach , I've yet to come across

15:50

one who understands that concept . So you're

15:52

setting yourself up to fail .

15:53

And I think also that dynamic

15:55

that you just described there of social

15:58

roles often being held by younger

16:00

or more junior members of staff . And

16:03

actually Social role

16:05

is an emotionally demanding

16:08

, intellectually demanding

16:10

role . You know you're carrying the

16:13

way the organization exactly

16:15

, and it through the pandemic you saw . Institutions

16:18

were suddenly reduced as maybe the wrong word , but

16:20

the only way that their institution

16:22

existed in the minds and eyes of their audience was

16:24

their social presence , and those are often

16:27

being mad by quite junior

16:29

members of the team and probably

16:31

didn't get the support that they needed

16:33

no strategies in place how

16:35

to do escalation issues like

16:37

exactly that .

16:38

The vagina museum is a really good example because it is

16:41

just one person and she's

16:43

brilliant at being up to this . Ok

16:45

, I understand what my audience wants where

16:48

the woods gonna be . She's really good

16:50

at telling stories via

16:52

their guys and via the tone of voice and

16:54

it's work to cross multiple platforms . Because of that

16:56

and that just come down to again that's

16:58

not a big team . So you suppose on time there's this illusion

17:01

that there's a has to be a big team . It's more

17:03

just about saying , okay , what story are we

17:05

trying to tell ? How does it resonate with what

17:07

we're trying to achieve ? And then , how do you tell the

17:09

story and add value ? And from them adding value

17:11

, that when they did the fundraiser , they raise so much

17:13

money in two weeks like and I

17:16

know there was a few issues trying to raise the money

17:18

and they still every time it got to one level

17:20

that up again and up to again and they did

17:22

really well and because the audience were engaged

17:24

with the doing , the audience bought into the story telling

17:26

and that's just one example of how you

17:29

can start to build these communities that will really support

17:31

what you're trying to do . We spoke about the museum

17:33

of English for a life before we started

17:35

the podcast and Again , although

17:38

they're pretty well known now , where

17:40

ultimately came down to is the fact that , because they

17:42

had built this community , people

17:44

were interested in going to find out more . The

17:46

tank museum is another example and although I've

17:48

heard nick talk about the time you many says they've got totally

17:51

different audience from what they have that

17:53

come to the tank museum On the

17:55

online , which is totally from the people who come to the organization

17:58

, they've been able to say , okay , what do I

18:00

want ? Audience one , and then how do you get to

18:02

the benefit of the organization ? So again , they think

18:04

it from is from a strategic point of view . How do we

18:06

Understand what audience wants and

18:08

how does that then play into what we're trying to achieve as organization

18:10

? And then they've married that beautifully . I think

18:12

they said they made a million dollars from ads

18:15

or something over the last couple years . That

18:17

that's insane . You're making a million

18:19

from ads like that's insane . And then partnerships

18:22

, and it's just another great example of when

18:24

you use it correctly , what you can do with it .

18:26

It's interesting you've touched on a number of times

18:28

the idea that your

18:31

focus with your social activity shouldn't

18:33

Primarily be rich . You

18:35

know , it's not about how many people

18:37

you reach , it's about how you

18:39

engage those those individuals , yes and no

18:42

with that .

18:42

So Another organization work with , again massive

18:44

organization that had a million

18:46

followers there's . Really , just think about okay

18:49

, well , we got a million followers , but we

18:51

don't get much engagement on the platform . Is

18:53

there much point in doing it ? They were going back

18:55

and forth , going back and forth , and then we worked out what they

18:57

engage with . The engagement was like 0.001 . It

18:59

was something ridiculous . That was the year

19:02

and yeah , so it worked out . You're engaging with about

19:04

900 people On average , like what's

19:06

the point ? Like , but you got a

19:08

million followers , so we have to be well

19:10

. If you're engaging with less than a thousand people

19:12

, like there's better times of resources

19:15

of your time , just so I mean . So it's again

19:17

going back to the inside , something to understand what your day

19:19

is telling you . We say it's a vanity

19:22

metric that the following number is a vanity

19:24

metric to the extent that if you got a million

19:26

followers but they're not engaging , if you , it means it literally

19:28

means nothing . If you got 10 thousand followers and you got

19:30

a thousand , two thousand , three thousand , then You're

19:32

killing the game something given that you

19:34

know and talking about understanding

19:37

your audience and delivering value to your

19:39

audience .

19:40

Maybe this is not the choice of people being asked

19:42

to make , but would you say it's about

19:44

people being active on

19:46

fewer platforms ? Be

19:49

more intentional and specific about the activity

19:51

, rather than trying to have

19:54

a profile on every platform and just basically

19:56

posting the same stuff for having a bot that's replicating

19:59

at your post I say it's better to

20:01

be great on one , then we go to important

20:03

cross five or six .

20:05

If there is a demand for you to be on

20:07

every platform , then be

20:09

clear what your strategy is for that specific

20:12

platform . So let's say , for example

20:14

, you want to be on the normal big

20:16

one , so facebook , instagram

20:18

, x , tiktok , as an example

20:20

, you may say x is going to be

20:22

literally a strategy , for x is only

20:25

gonna post Our events , so we're

20:27

not trying to engage the time about audience , but it's gonna post

20:29

our events . Instagram and tiktok as well

20:31

. We're gonna try and create communities , as

20:33

an example . So that's gonna be focused with those platforms

20:35

. And in facebook might be we might have a facebook

20:37

group where we can delve into building

20:40

more close . Brand . Ambassador is all

20:42

driving people to the website . So having a clear

20:44

purpose for each platform makes it easier for

20:46

you to then say these are why we're here , be

20:49

on every platform , just been every platform and stress about

20:51

your post . Social media manager saying we have to have content

20:53

across all these things and they don't mean nothing , can

20:55

nobody think agent of them is Recipe

20:57

for disaster and probably why organization

21:00

leadership looks at and says nothing's happening

21:02

and suppose the other side of

21:04

the question I asked earlier .

21:06

Where do you think the big Mist

21:08

opportunities are for the cultural

21:10

sector around ? Social , you know what's the things that

21:12

you wish you saw people doing more of ?

21:15

I think it is just the story telling a side

21:17

of things like . So one

21:19

of the beautiful things about working in digital culture network is

21:21

we worked with all types of organizations

21:23

so libraries of museums

21:25

, theaters , music , etc . And

21:28

libraries used to come to us and be like we

21:30

don't know how to tell the story . I'm like you're a library

21:32

, how can you not know have stories to tell

21:34

? That used to blow my mind like

21:37

that . That makes no sense . How

21:39

can you have no stories to tell as a library

21:41

, like You've got a story to tell for every

21:43

single day of the week you can tell a different

21:45

story , you can theme up , you can

21:47

die up and down . There's so many things

21:49

that you can do as a library and

21:51

that's the thing . I think it's really sad that we don't

21:54

buy into the fact that there's an audience out there for

21:56

everybody . I used to say jokingly when

21:58

I should do talks . I still do

22:00

, but one of the my like quips were that

22:03

there's an audience , everybody , even

22:05

people who like to tissue and the nice search

22:07

start . There was a instagram page that had like sixty

22:09

thousand followers just toilet paper , and if

22:11

the pictures of the toilet paper Like

22:14

literally doesn't all , just every single

22:16

thing out , that it might be a hundred , thousand

22:18

hundred , but there was , like said with so

22:20

many people on social media , I guarantee you

22:22

doesn't all just few . It's just about you dialing

22:24

up what you want to tell the story

22:26

about .

22:27

And I think it's interesting that almost

22:29

every example that you have been enthusiastic

22:31

about got excited about that we've talked

22:33

about over the last half an hour . So have

22:36

been where organizations

22:38

have been using social

22:41

platform , social activity , to engage

22:44

with audiences , to build community

22:46

, to tell stories . It hasn't

22:49

been about directly driving revenue

22:51

or , you know , promoting a

22:53

one-off thing . It's about that

22:55

sort of long-term relationship

22:58

building and , from your perspective

23:00

, do you think that should be the primary focus

23:02

of social activity ?

23:03

I think yes , because I think ultimately it does

23:06

tell us to every cause . So if

23:08

you're first of mine , when someone comes to

23:10

London and says , okay , I want to go to the South Bank Centre because

23:12

I've seen all this great content and these great stories that

23:15

come from , that's where you're going to go . If , when

23:17

you think , okay , I want to go to a theatre show and you

23:19

know there's one Pacific theatre , there's always got

23:21

this great content , that's the first place you're going to look up

23:23

to see have they got anything on that I want to see

23:25

. There's also a conversation that there's

23:28

a different way to tell stories now , and so

23:30

there's a really good TED talk

23:32

by an Australian doctor about social

23:34

media , and she talks about the

23:37

role of museums or also cultural

23:39

organisations to socially capture

23:41

history as it happens and how

23:44

things have evolved . An example she gives is

23:46

of Anne Frank , so she's an event in Anne Frank's

23:48

time , her the way she documented what's happening

23:50

in history was through an old book . There's

23:52

a Ukrainian teenager who use

23:55

TikTok and she said , ultimately

23:57

it was the same thing and we're

23:59

just totally missing that . We're not amplifying those

24:02

stories . We're not seeing social media as a way to capture

24:04

social and cultural moments and historical

24:06

moments and then to add value to that because

24:08

of the fact that we work in arts and we know the history

24:10

behind these things , we know the stories , but the stories

24:13

that have maybe led to that , to add value to that

24:15

, and to me , that's where the opportunities

24:17

are being missed . And if you're an organisation

24:20

that says , oh , we can't be funny or we can't be nice , then

24:22

find that educational moment where you can add

24:24

value to something . Find that historical

24:26

moment that relates to something . There's

24:28

a great instagram page called art , but make

24:31

it sports and literally they get

24:33

famous paintings and they'll compare to a

24:35

sport event . And again , hundred thousand followers

24:37

. Nothing to do with culture , sexual , but this

24:39

is what this counts doing things that we could

24:41

be doing so easily . Did you send me ?

24:43

and I think that last point is the opportunity

24:46

. Right , you know Cultural organisations , whether

24:48

that's performing arts , galleries , museums

24:50

, wherever they

24:53

are experts in , whatever it

24:55

is they are expert in , and ultimately

24:57

there is a degree of storytelling

24:59

in their core . That's the yeah

25:01

and it feels like the missed opportunity

25:03

is that that expertise and

25:05

that storytelling muscle isn't exercised

25:07

outside of .

25:09

Often , bringing people into a building feels

25:12

like what you're describing is the opportunity

25:14

for social to be another

25:16

way to extend that mission and just extend

25:19

that storytelling activity

25:21

and the thing we have to remember it's scary

25:23

as it is I've got an F you who's eight years old , but

25:25

from the three or four

25:27

he's had a mobile phone or tablet in his hand . That

25:30

next generation of audience go is online

25:32

. Roblox , I believe

25:34

I don't want to call it because I might get the numbers from

25:36

Roblox made more money in 2020

25:38

, then every fashion house in the world

25:40

and stuff like that is insane . When you think it's

25:42

a digital platform because people would just buying

25:44

digital clothes in Roblox like that's

25:47

crazy . Some of those kind of stats

25:49

that you look at and you see how I

25:51

think between 70% of the kids

25:53

4 to 10 year olds in America are

25:56

using Roblox . So you think

25:58

of those kind of age groups who are coming through

26:00

digitally savvy . They're going to expect

26:02

to be connecting and find the

26:04

stories and find the communities online

26:07

. That's how their world works and faster

26:09

than say we're just gonna ignore it and we're gonna

26:11

deal with an age group which is aging out

26:13

and then even Age group of millennials

26:16

. We live on communities as well online

26:18

. So the idea that we're just gonna literally ignore

26:20

it Is almost ludicrous . Almost

26:23

. It's almost a death call to ourselves , like we're saying

26:25

we don't care what's gonna , you know , it's just

26:28

be ordering some time .

26:29

I agree because , alongside

26:31

that behavior shift

26:33

to everything being or

26:36

having some sort of digital touch point , you

26:38

know there's been a reduction in formal arts

26:40

education as part of the curriculum and actually

26:42

, as you say , if cultural sector doesn't

26:44

respond to how people Are

26:47

engaging with the world , and also

26:49

there's a reduction in how people

26:52

are exposed to sort of traditional forms of cultures

26:54

. You know that there is a pie

26:56

is getting smaller for everyone . Exactly

26:58

and as well as you said . You

27:00

know , you and I are not that

27:03

young and we are millennials

27:05

. You know , and I think that assumption that

27:07

digital or social automatically

27:10

equals teenagers Was

27:12

true 25 years ago but

27:14

is no longer the case . And again

27:16

, I think , through the pandemic , because

27:18

everyone was having to access

27:20

products and services digitally

27:23

, that behavior shift

27:25

now runs right through , demographically

27:27

, the traditional cultural audiences as

27:29

well . So to ignore the opportunity

27:31

to engage with these audience through these tools and platforms

27:34

?

27:34

because everybody else is . So it's not like

27:36

the world is saying , okay , you're not doing it , on why everybody

27:38

else is doing it . And going back to what we said about

27:40

tick to be in a competitor to Netflix , arts

27:43

and culture , realistically , you're competing with movies

27:45

, you're competing with concert , competing with TV

27:48

, and so it's the same thing you got

27:50

to think about . How do we tell stories ? How do we get people

27:52

into the spaces ? In the UK

27:54

were lucky to have funding . A lot of other countries

27:56

don't have funding , so if they don't have funding , it's even

27:59

more like that . You need to compete to get eyeballs

28:01

and so that you can actually have revenue

28:03

, have people coming through the door . So it really is a

28:05

critical touch point . And it's not just

28:07

social cause . When I talk about storytelling , it's

28:09

about the whole digital experience . So

28:11

how you drive people to your website , what stories

28:13

on your website , how are you telling

28:15

people things about your information via newsletters ? Have

28:17

a connection there . If you got a payment

28:19

system , how simplified is that ? If

28:22

you're telling stories about your donations and

28:24

how people can support you , how simplified

28:26

is that connection ? It's the whole digital ecosystem

28:29

that you need to be really thinking about and

28:31

having a synergy across so that people can

28:33

really buy into what you're doing .

28:35

And it sounds like , and I'm definitely putting

28:37

words in your mouth to tell me if this

28:40

is wrong but it sounds like you're saying

28:42

that the most effective use

28:45

of social activity is

28:47

as a brand awareness play . You

28:49

know , as you say , explaining who

28:51

you are and what you do , be keeping

28:54

yourself top of mind . Yeah , see

28:56

, not doing a hard sell , but allowing people

28:58

to come to you , and it's

29:01

a storytelling piece , it's a brand piece brand

29:03

awareness thing .

29:04

But again , cold color has been around

29:06

for so long because of the fact power of the brand

29:08

. So brand awareness almost don't

29:10

say trivialize it , but it makes it feel like that . That's

29:13

not gonna amplify everything else that you

29:15

do . It's gonna play into the revenue

29:17

that you create because people know who you are . Because of

29:19

the power of your brand , you're gonna have more

29:21

people who are saying have

29:23

you heard about the show ? You should really check out

29:25

because people are aware of you and they're telling their

29:28

friends . That word of mouth moment happens , real

29:30

social . They do quite freaking close and

29:32

there's one for June and it said again

29:34

word of mouth . I said comments people

29:36

were finding brand to find organizations through

29:39

common and that was across age groups , like

29:41

24 , 25% across age

29:43

groups . These are all factors that people

29:45

happy to find out , find out who you are . So

29:47

, yes , it's a brand awareness piece , education

29:50

and a story telling piece so that you've got your

29:53

, your turning people into fans

29:55

and advocates for what you're doing and

29:58

people advocating different ways . So that might be if

30:00

they don't come to the show , but they love you , do so much . They

30:02

said I think you love this event . You

30:04

should go check out . Did you know this new

30:06

event happening at this such and such museum ? You

30:08

should check out the love that you start

30:11

to see them , to their life and to their into their mindset . So

30:13

, yes , it's a brand awareness piece , but it's so much bigger

30:16

than that because it ties into everything .

30:18

And for people that are

30:20

in the process of making that shift , or they're

30:22

listening to this and think , okay , we need to shift from a

30:24

selling mindset , more cost mindset , more of

30:26

an engagement . Where

30:28

would you recommend people start

30:31

? What's step one to working

30:33

in a more effective way ? And sort of where you've described

30:35

.

30:35

I think step one is being honest about your

30:37

resource level . So being honest about

30:39

what your resources are from a

30:41

financial standpoint , from a skill set , internally

30:44

standpoint , what the team makeup looks like

30:46

, because what you'll find is , if

30:48

you just add social as an add-on to someone else's

30:50

job and it's not their main role , they will

30:52

do it for a month , two months , and then it'll be my

30:55

main role , takes over and it will fall off . So

30:57

, really being honest about what that looks like

30:59

. Once you've done that , you can then say okay , how do

31:01

we start to build out benchmarks of success for ourself

31:04

? And I think everybody does it across

31:06

art sector brand . I think

31:08

it's a human thing where we judge our success

31:10

based on others without really saying

31:12

, okay , but what's got into that success ? So what

31:15

are our benchmarks ? What do our insights look like ? So

31:17

for me , it would be look at your internal resources first

31:20

, see what that looks like , then look at your

31:22

results to start saying , okay , how can we start framing some

31:24

benchmarks for ourselves ? And then , three

31:26

, you're gonna wanna say this might have come first , but

31:28

it's fine . Three , you're gonna say , okay

31:30

, what do we want to do ? Why are we here in the first place

31:32

? What are we trying to achieve ? Like I said , even if you're just

31:34

doing those three things , add the consistency

31:37

to that , you will build something and

31:39

you'll start to enjoy it . You'll start to see successes

31:41

and then you'll be able to go from there .

31:43

Yeah , and I think that third step

31:46

, or maybe first step , about

31:49

really being , I guess , having

31:51

a really frank conversation about why

31:53

do we exist , what is the

31:55

thing that we can say or the value that we

31:57

can add that no one else can . It feels

31:59

like that's the conversation that lots

32:02

of organizations aren't having , or

32:04

maybe had 10 years ago and haven't revisited

32:06

. And

32:08

if you're working in a digital team or leading a digital team

32:10

and maybe you feel like your organization needs

32:13

to have that sort of conversation , do you

32:15

have any tips of sort of how you catalyze

32:17

that conversation , because that's a conversation that feels like it needs

32:19

to happen on an organization-wide level ?

32:21

Yeah , I always say you wanna try and get the people in

32:23

the room who are gonna make the decisions to have those

32:25

conversations . So I'm working . I

32:28

think that'd be fine for me . I'm working with a lot of guys called Piper

32:30

at the moment and we had a really good

32:32

meeting where we got their board members in , we

32:34

got the senior team members and we got in there

32:36

, like the junior members and the overall

32:38

digital team . We had a whole day session where

32:40

we went through what do we expect , what do you

32:42

wanna see from our digital communications , what do

32:44

you wanna see from our social media output

32:47

? And just for having everybody in the room , we

32:49

could see there were different opinions and different viewpoints

32:51

, but we could come to an agreement of what made sense

32:53

for us as an organization . So

32:55

even if that means you get somebody to facilitate that

32:57

session for you where you've got an outsider who can say

32:59

, well , this is what we're trying to achieve and this

33:01

is how you can go about doing that and just staring

33:03

it , rather than having kind of people at loggerheads

33:06

against what they wanna get from the different channels

33:08

. But for me that is a really great step because once

33:10

everybody's aligned of what the reason they're doing

33:12

it . It makes it easier and it also helps the social

33:14

media person or digital person , because you won't get

33:16

this , you gotta do this , you gotta do this . Well , no , we've

33:19

agreed , this is our strategy . So we've got kind of , you've got

33:21

a kind of a leg to stand on to say , well , this is our

33:23

strategy , based on what we've all agreed and I think

33:25

everything we've described today

33:27

demonstrates that

33:29

this is a specific

33:32

strand of activity .

33:33

It requires specific skills

33:35

, it requires a thoughtful approach

33:38

, it requires a plan . It

33:40

cannot , as you said earlier , just be a

33:42

bolt on digital marketing

33:45

and also we'll post some stuff on Twitter

33:47

. Actually , it needs to be a longitudinal

33:49

strategic approach because otherwise

33:51

, as you say , either it's gonna fall down

33:54

the list of priorities or you're just

33:56

gonna be screaming into the void and getting

33:58

nothing back .

33:59

Exactly , and then it really is a waste of your time at

34:01

that point when you slide that I

34:03

couldn't have summarized it better , and that's

34:06

why you're got the podcast

34:08

.

34:10

And you know before again we press

34:13

record . You were talking about some work

34:15

you're doing in the States , working with museums

34:17

over there . Listenership to this is

34:19

international . I'm intrigued

34:21

if you see a difference in approach because

34:24

you've worked with lots of UK-based organizations and now some North

34:26

American organizations . Is there a difference to help

34:28

people approach social ?

34:30

I think the bigger American organizations

34:33

get it a bit more , but I also think that comes

34:35

down to the idea that they understand that

34:37

they need to have a story out there to get funding

34:39

, to get donations , et cetera , et cetera . I

34:41

think the larger UK organizations

34:44

a lot of them get by

34:46

on the fact that they're a big organization , so

34:48

there's recognition on their name , more so than them

34:50

actually being good at digital or social , and

34:53

I think that's something I know . There's some organizations who are

34:55

trying to change that philosophy and change the way they approach

34:57

it . I think ultimately

34:59

, though as much as I always harp on about it

35:01

, it does come down to you owning your story

35:03

. I'm giving an example . So the South Bank Center , for

35:05

example . The South Bank Center is

35:08

a center , but what story do they

35:10

want to tell ? It doesn't have to be about all

35:12

the million different events that happen . Is what's

35:14

the core story we want to tell ? And we've

35:16

said here that we don't talk about sales . It's not about that . You don't

35:18

talk about sales . You just find other ways to tell

35:20

stories through sales . So

35:22

if you're doing an event say you're doing , they're

35:25

doing a book launch you can talk

35:27

about the layers , about what that book launches , and you

35:29

can talk about that on your social fees , and then

35:31

the ads that you run could be pushing

35:34

for it , so you can do dark ads that are pushing towards oh

35:36

, by the way , comes this event . So it's not that we're

35:38

saying that you don't use social for sales . You

35:41

definitely do , but it's not the beat on end

35:43

of why you're using the platform and you connect

35:45

it to other elements of the story . So

35:48

yeah , ultimately , I think around the world , there's similarities

35:50

between all of them , because I think arts and culture

35:52

organizations are very focused on the arts and

35:54

the culture and

35:56

the business side of it can be frowned upon

35:58

. I think that seems to be a universal mandate

36:01

.

36:01

So yeah , At the beginning we talked about the

36:03

fragmentation of sort of the social media

36:05

landscape and my colleague Katie

36:07

and I talked about newsletter we sent out

36:09

recently where one of the things we shared

36:11

was that the Australian Broadcasting Corporation

36:13

has come off X , come off

36:16

Twitter because it was

36:18

more hassle than it was worth . Basically , you

36:20

know , I also had conversations with colleagues

36:22

in cultural organizations where they're Looking

36:25

at the relative toxicity

36:27

of a platform and asking questions about actually

36:30

, should we even be active here ? I suppose

36:32

this relates to the conversation we're

36:34

having earlier about Be more thoughtful

36:36

about where you are active . But do you think , as part

36:38

of that conversation , what should

36:41

organizations should also be thinking about where they

36:43

should not be active ?

36:44

so again I got to say earlier about it

36:47

being a strategic point of view . I think there's

36:49

a couple things to consider . What do you

36:51

stand for as an organization , so

36:53

does that platform go against that ? Now

36:56

, for me , when you start to take those kind of

36:58

start is , though , there has to be consistency

37:00

across it , so it can become

37:02

quite tricky to say , okay , we're gonna leave this

37:04

because of this and go to here , because

37:07

then someone else will definitely especially if you're a larger organization

37:09

will find that the same issue when you go to the

37:11

other platform . I tend

37:13

to tell people to really look at it from an audience standpoint

37:15

. So the ex scenario as

37:18

an example although , yes , there is a

37:20

lot of noise around the only

37:22

and how the platform is , there's also

37:24

a lot of people on it who don't care either

37:26

way , who are still on the platform , so

37:29

it's more about you thinking , okay , what do

37:31

we stand for organization ? We're gonna take that

37:33

start . Are we doing it just because it seems to be the

37:35

cool thing to do all the thing that's done ? Are

37:37

we doing it because this is what we don't believe in ? And

37:39

if that is what you don't believe in , are we gonna have that

37:41

same kind of energy across the board to

37:43

everything that we do going forward . If

37:46

you are gonna have that , then be prepared to

37:48

face criticism for that and be okay with

37:50

it . Second of all , like I said , then think about your

37:52

audience . If your audience is ultimately

37:54

on this platform and that's what you generally believe , then

37:57

you have to contemplate how do we reach these people otherwise

37:59

. So the vagina music , for example , they've got

38:01

a really active on twitter . I

38:03

know they've moved out of a platform , but they've got a really

38:05

active orders and so For me would

38:07

it would make sense to me to say something don't be on twitter

38:09

anymore , or excellent

38:12

, that would make sense for that because they've got an active audience

38:14

which helps them get out their messaging . So

38:17

I think this is a bit more complicated than the same . When

38:19

you're gonna leave , because we don't agree with the management style

38:21

of the owners of the platform . Jim

38:23

from museum next put a really great post out

38:26

about . These are some tips on linked

38:28

in the page about . This is why I left the page and he made

38:30

it and it works for him because he's given clear

38:32

reason . This is why we're gonna leave it . This

38:34

is what I'm gonna try find out . Market engagement . I used

38:36

to get off it All of that . So it goes back

38:38

to saying always have a plan .

38:39

There's a reason for you doing it , not just doing it as

38:41

a knee-jerk reaction and once again , it

38:44

seems like the core of what you were saying there is

38:46

Understanding your audience . Yes , because

38:49

that should be the reason why you're on these platforms

38:51

in the first place , and it feels

38:53

like still there are lots of organizations

38:55

that maybe aren't fully

38:58

understanding or Analyzing

39:01

where their audience is . Again

39:04

, if you're in an organization where that's maybe Partly

39:07

or fully the case , what sort of tool

39:09

should people be using ? Is it about using the

39:11

, the in-built analytics tools on these platforms

39:14

? Is it about doing research

39:16

activities outside of that , focus group surveys

39:18

, etc . How do you build the understanding

39:20

of where your audience ?

39:21

I think , yeah , this is when you're approaching

39:23

it . From what you do , it comes down to

39:25

now , what your objectives is

39:27

. Literally , done that . Who are you trying to reach ? Why are you trying

39:30

to reach them ? What impact they can have on

39:32

your what you're trying to do ? How did

39:34

you go into ? That is then up to you . So , yeah , then do you do

39:36

workshops , do you do Surveys

39:38

? Do you do focus groups of people to find out

39:40

what that perfect audience looks like for you to start

39:42

looking at this and I love all that stuff

39:44

. So , yes , that's what I ideally want to do . Most

39:47

are , if we're gonna be honest , most awesome culture organizations

39:49

are gonna do all that . So it's then comes out to say , okay

39:51

, we want to achieve xyz , we

39:53

believe our audience looks like this . Ultimately

39:56

, those people can be found here , and

39:58

then you started play with it and build just right

40:00

from that . If you can go in a lot more depth than a

40:02

hundred percent , that's the way to go . But

40:04

why do you believe is and again , this is probably

40:06

for my time working digital culture network is , the

40:09

more they start to see the things that work in , the more

40:11

they start to understand . Okay , we need to add a layer

40:13

of detail to this and then they start to get better

40:15

, bigger and better and better , and that's when you get the winners , more

40:17

so than people try to go in Super

40:20

heavy with . Okay , understand the data , and then

40:22

it's not their world . So you're doing

40:24

things that the alien to them . So therefore

40:26

it becomes a bit much of a woman and then end

40:29

up just leaving it . So just start small

40:31

. I would say , start small , but be really clear

40:33

this objective . We think audience looks

40:35

like this , or who we see coming to our shows

40:37

or events , what have you ?

40:39

Where those people that ultimately , yet the

40:41

last question is everything

40:44

you've described and you said this

40:46

specifically is that actually you

40:48

should look at this . Your

40:50

timeline horizon over which you're measuring success

40:52

needs to be realistic . Realistic

40:55

longer term . Actually , a slow

40:57

burn is probably going to be more impactful for your

40:59

organization than one thing going viral once . Hundred

41:01

percent and actually virality

41:03

is almost impossible to predict

41:06

. You can't legislate for it . If

41:08

it happens , great . But the

41:10

focus should be on the slow burn over

41:13

months or years with a really

41:15

specific focus on a

41:17

really specific audience .

41:19

Even when we think about the organizations who discussed

41:21

, who have done really well . All of them are

41:23

the ones fit for years , even

41:26

the mail , although it had a quote

41:28

, unquote , overnight success . They've really

41:30

thought about how they build that and how they build on that

41:32

and they've really Delve into the data and

41:34

look to the inside to say , okay , this is what works for

41:36

us , this type of copy works for us , this tone

41:38

of voice works for us . They've had to really

41:41

get strategic with it . So that's

41:43

what is that ? That's what you're thinking about . Think about what

41:45

is the long picture ? How do we make

41:48

sure we're telling stories that are relevant to watch , relevant

41:50

to audience , at value , and we're not just putting

41:52

cap means up that have no , have

41:54

no relevance to anything we're doing , but it's getting lots of views

41:57

.

41:57

That is pointless and Social

42:00

media can be a dark place at times , but

42:02

overall , are you

42:04

still optimistic and enthusiastic

42:06

about it being part of the mix for cultural organizations

42:08

to as much as the

42:10

cliche people .

42:11

So it's a tool . Everything's a tool . If

42:13

you understand social media what it is , you

42:15

can legislate for that and you can build

42:17

off it from there . Yes , it can be dark

42:20

and it can be cruel , but it can also be

42:22

a place of joy , place of education , place

42:24

of light the math things I've learned from

42:26

social media , from how you create your feed

42:28

, the kind of energy you put out yourself as an organization

42:30

. So what do you stand for ? Your value should

42:33

be seen through the content you put out . Your

42:35

value should be seen for the copy and the positive

42:37

things you talk about , and people

42:39

will gravitate to that . Again , that there's

42:41

an idea that everything that social media slides

42:43

very negative and it is very negative , but then you'll

42:46

see Every single positive post

42:48

. Allow all this does instagram pages

42:50

about positivity with 50 million

42:52

followers and like . So people still

42:54

, they want to find this good information about

42:56

you . Show on in and find a way to tell

42:58

your story in a positive way that reflects you .

43:11

You can find all episodes of the podcast . Sign

43:13

up for the newsletter and find out about our events

43:16

on our website , the digital

43:18

dot works . You can

43:20

also find us on linkedin . Now that Twitter is a total

43:22

garbage fire , our theme

43:24

tune is Vienna beat by blue dot sessions

43:27

. And , last but not least , thanks to Mark

43:29

cotton for his editing support on this episode

43:31

. See

43:33

you again soon .