0:00

Make holiday gatherings more delicious at Whole

0:02

Foods Market. Whether you're the host or

0:04

the guest who aims to impress, save

0:07

now on baking essentials from 365 by

0:10

Whole Foods Market. Need some extra help?

0:12

Pick up crowd-pleasing flatbreads that are ready

0:14

to heat, or build a lovely charcuterie

0:17

board with sales on specialty cheeses and

0:19

meats. Holiday wines and beers are also

0:21

on sale, starting at $7.99. Host

0:24

the perfect holiday party with Whole Foods

0:27

Market. Must be 21 plus, please drink

0:29

responsibly. Maruchan superfans are

0:31

everywhere. From the busy moms who want

0:33

to deliver maximum flavor in a flash,

0:36

to dorm room diners who want to

0:38

put some slurp in their step. There

0:40

are a ton of copycats you could

0:42

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0:45

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0:47

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at maruchan.com. Maruchan. Hey

1:07

everyone, it's Chris. If you

1:09

haven't yet left us a rating or review on

1:11

your favorite podcast app, I would really appreciate it

1:13

if you could take a moment to do that.

1:16

Positive reviews really do help new listeners

1:18

to find the show. Thanks so

1:20

much, and we hope you enjoy this week's episode.

1:24

Hey there, listeners. Future calls are coming

1:26

in. Hey

1:28

there, listeners, future callers, and

1:30

cooking enthusiasts. This is

1:33

Dinner SOS, the show where we help

1:35

you save dinner, or whatever

1:37

you're cooking. I'm Chris Morocco,

1:39

food director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious.

1:42

And today, I'm joined by some very

1:44

special colleagues. Hi, I'm

1:46

Rachel Gurjar, and I'm an associate food editor

1:49

in the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen. I'm

1:51

Kendra Vaculin, and I am also an associate

1:54

food editor at Bon Appetit. My

1:56

name is Ines Sanguiano, and I'm the test kitchen

1:58

coordinator at Bon Appetit. If

2:00

you've received your December issue of Bon

2:03

Appetit, then you know our food editors

2:05

went all in on a cookie swap

2:07

this year. So

2:09

today on DinnerSOS, we're bringing you

2:11

a cookie swap swap. We

2:13

have each chosen one of our colleagues'

2:15

cookie recipes from the December issue. And

2:18

we're going to go around the table and make a

2:20

case for why that should be the cookie you make

2:22

this holiday season. And

2:24

then we'll answer some listener questions

2:27

about curating the perfect cookie selection.

2:29

Basically, we're going to talk about cookies first, and

2:31

then we're going to talk about cookies again, but

2:34

in a different way. And then

2:36

we're going to talk about cookies after that. Got it?

2:41

Before we start the cookie swap swap,

2:43

let's just talk about cookies. I

2:45

feel like everybody in their heart of hearts is a cookie

2:48

person at the end of the day. Right?

2:51

Or is that not right? I think so more

2:53

than others. Yeah, I don't know. He's not a

2:55

cookie person here. I'm not really a cookie

2:57

person. I think it's one of those things where,

3:00

yeah, it's a little bit of something for everyone,

3:02

but I think it's really hard to sell that

3:04

it is worth the hoopla. Wow.

3:07

To me, a cookie is a

3:10

home product. If I go

3:12

to a bakery, I'm not spending my American

3:14

dollars on a cookie. I'm

3:16

going to buy something that takes more

3:19

time, like a croissant, or something that

3:22

I can't make at home. Cookies feel

3:24

like that's something I do. Yeah, it's giving

3:26

laborists. I think that's the thing for me,

3:28

where it's just giving project. There's no cookie

3:30

that comes to mind where I'm like, oh

3:33

yeah, just like, even though you can. But

3:35

it's just like the cookie I want, the cookie I

3:37

dream about, it's very seldom that I think

3:40

that it's easily achievable totally. Well,

3:42

I agree that it certainly is hard to find

3:44

a wonderful cookie out in

3:47

the world. And it is true that you

3:49

can make a great cookie at home. You

3:51

can make a cookie that's probably better than

3:53

a lot of what you can get in

3:55

most bakeries, of any kind. And

3:57

then you can have all dozen to yourself. Yeah,

4:00

right. You don't have to spend 350 on

4:03

one lackluster cookie. Yeah, and your

4:05

house smells amazing. Yeah, true. Yeah.

4:09

No where I went just then. You

4:11

remember the movie Clueless House when Christian's

4:13

like coming over? He's just like, I

4:15

better be baking something. Yeah. And

4:17

she just dumps the log of dough onto the cookie

4:19

sheet and just shoves it in the oven. And then

4:21

of course forgets about it. Yeah. It's

4:24

like, you're supposed to do that when you want to sell

4:26

your house. Correct. You're supposed to like

4:28

make the smell of cookies in your house and then

4:30

people will buy it. I'm curious to

4:32

hear everybody's kind of earliest cookie

4:34

memories or just like holiday cookie

4:36

memories. For me,

4:38

my aunt, Mary Ann, shout

4:41

out Mary Ann Scofield in Seattle, Washington,

4:43

she, for as

4:45

long as I can remember, makes like 30

4:48

types of cookies for Christmas, like truly.

4:51

I mean, she is a maximalist across

4:53

the board. Like she has three Christmas

4:55

trees. But she also is like making

4:57

so many Christmas cookies. And

5:00

going to her house, we would usually go up

5:02

to Seattle after we had Christmas, like as a family, then

5:04

we'd go up to see my dad's side of the family

5:06

in Seattle and have Christmas part two on like the 27th.

5:09

And dessert was always the best part because she

5:11

would put out platters upon platters upon platters upon

5:14

platters of cookies. And you would do your best

5:16

not to get fooled because there were two cookies

5:18

that looked a lot alike and one was like

5:20

fully chocolate and one had rum inside of it.

5:22

And as a child, nothing could be worse than

5:25

like accidentally eating the rum ball. Yeah. But

5:28

I mean, I don't even know where she found the time

5:30

to make all these cookies, but it was everything. It

5:32

was like all the frosted cookies

5:35

like cut out in the shapes of

5:37

the tree and the wreath and the

5:39

elves and whatever, she would make all

5:41

sorts of like M&M cookies with all

5:44

of this like mix-ins. Everything was red

5:46

and green, frosted, sprinkles. There was like

5:48

the non-bake like haystack style cookies, brownies,

5:51

the bark. I mean, it was crazy. Oh,

5:53

so this was the thing. She did everything.

5:55

She's the queen of cookies. Yeah, so that's

5:57

my number one memory regarding Christmas cookies. I

6:00

love that. What about you, Rachel? Where do

6:02

cookies bring you? For me, so I

6:05

grew up in India and my mom

6:07

never baked cookies, but I do remember

6:10

going to a local bakery and picking

6:12

up cookies. And in India, we don't

6:14

call them cookies, they're biscuits. Oh,

6:17

of course. So

6:20

we went to pick up biscuits and

6:23

there is one that I really

6:25

like. It's called nan katai. It's kind

6:27

of like a short breadie. That's the

6:29

vibe. It's very simple, but it's so

6:31

delicious. And then we have

6:33

a couple of other variations with spices,

6:36

which are really yummy. The ones with

6:38

spices, you would see flecks of cumin

6:40

seeds on top. There's

6:42

usually a simple sugar

6:45

crust. It's not even a

6:47

glaze. You know when the glaze really

6:49

hardens and it becomes like crispy? Yeah,

6:51

I like that. So I

6:53

remember that. And then during Christmas,

6:55

because there's a big Christian community

6:58

in India, so they would do

7:00

the fancy ones with green and

7:02

red and white frosting. So

7:04

I remember that. I love it when the frosting

7:06

on a cookie is hard. It's

7:09

very bakery. Yeah, I like

7:11

it when it's hard so I can chip it off

7:13

and not eat it. And it can just sit there

7:15

in a little pile on my plate that one of

7:17

the kids can come along and then drop. What

7:21

about you, Annette? Were you always a cookie Grinch

7:23

or did you grow into it? I

7:25

think it's genetic. I was

7:28

a big cake family and I don't know if

7:30

that's from being around a lot of women from

7:33

the American South, but just

7:35

cakes, cookies. It was like one of

7:37

those things where we just did not care.

7:39

We'd get the little bags, you know, where

7:41

you can add the oil, add the egg,

7:43

and then it's a cookie. That's what a

7:46

cookie has always been in my mind. But

7:49

outside of like my grandmother would have all those

7:51

little tins that you swore were

7:53

cookies. Totally. And you

7:55

were like, are you serious? But occasionally there was

7:57

the cookies inside. So like that was a cookie.

8:00

And I was like, oh, look, these are cookies.

8:02

The little Danish butter cookies. Yeah, yeah, no. My

8:04

family was big. I'm like, we

8:06

even had popcorn in the holidays

8:08

more than we did the cookies, like

8:11

the multi, the cheddar. Cheddar and

8:13

caramel. Right, right, right. But no, cookies

8:15

never. It was just so on

8:17

the bottom of the list of the worries of our world.

8:20

It's just not there. I

8:22

love that with cookies, it's similar

8:25

to you, Kendra. For me, it's like

8:27

the pleasure of cookies sort of compounds

8:29

exponentially. You know what I mean? Where

8:31

it's like one cookie's good, two

8:34

cookies is really freaking

8:36

good. For sure. A plate with

8:38

five different cookies. You are

8:40

flying on 98 octane of holiday fuel. That

8:45

meme where the guy's like one, two, and

8:48

then three, his eyes are like seeing him

8:50

go blind or shooting out. That's you

8:52

with a plate of cookies. Yeah, and

8:54

that was my grandmother, Minnie Morocco. It wasn't

8:57

one type of cookie, it was like eight.

8:59

And she would start baking at the beginning

9:01

of December with the goal, and I don't

9:03

know where this came from because these days

9:06

it just sort of seems sort of demented.

9:08

She was like cooped up in her kitchen

9:10

like 120 degrees

9:12

for the entire month of December

9:14

just making tray after tray of

9:16

cookies with the express

9:19

purpose, not just of eating them during the

9:21

holidays, but she would give them away. And

9:23

I don't mean like she gave like

9:25

a plate here, it was

9:27

like we got like a Bloomingdale's

9:29

robe box full of cookies. That

9:32

was like my family's allotment, you

9:34

know what I mean? And like

9:37

everybody that she liked got a box that big,

9:39

you know what I mean? And if she didn't

9:41

like you, there were no cookies for you. No

9:43

cookies for you, yeah. The Bloomingdale's box just

9:45

made me think of, my family like doesn't

9:47

do snow sports. Like I don't know how

9:50

to ski, I've never done that before. We

9:52

just never like went on snow vacations, except

9:54

for one time when I was 13, we

9:57

decided we would go to Mount Shasta and like see

9:59

what's going on. the snow was all about. And

10:02

we're driving there and we had packed up all

10:04

of our groceries and stuff to go stay in

10:06

this cabin. And between my sister and I in

10:08

the backseat was this giant Tupperware of all of

10:10

our Christmas cookies that we were bringing

10:12

with us to this cabin.

10:15

And there was a blizzard and we got stuck on

10:18

the freeway for 13 hours. We

10:20

ate all the food. And my sister and I

10:22

ate every single cookie. Like we were literally stuck

10:24

on the side of the road. We didn't have

10:26

chains. Like we didn't know how to, we're California

10:29

people. We don't know how to use the

10:31

snow. There's a whole thing. And my mom

10:33

was just like, we will survive because we have 55

10:35

Christmas cookies in the car and

10:38

we just ate those for our entire trip. Oh

10:41

my gosh. Wow, what a story. Yeah, your

10:43

blood sugar, maybe not so much. I know. It

10:46

was pretty bleak otherwise. I think my parents were

10:48

like, you guys can eat the cookies. We'll eat

10:50

like sliced deli turkey that we eat in

10:52

the cooler. We're

10:58

going to take a quick break. When we

11:00

get back, Inez, Rachel, Kendra and I are

11:02

gonna tell you which of our colleagues cookies

11:04

you should make this year. Make

11:15

holiday gatherings more delicious at Whole Foods

11:17

Market. Whether you're the host or the

11:20

guest who aims to impress. Save now

11:22

on baking essentials from 365 by

11:25

Whole Foods Market. Need some

11:27

extra help. Pick up crowd pleasing flatbreads

11:29

that are ready to heat or build

11:31

a lovely charcuterie board with sales on

11:33

specialty cheeses and meats. Holiday wines and

11:35

beers are also on sale starting at

11:37

7.99. Host the

11:40

perfect holiday party with Whole Foods Market.

11:42

Must be 21 plus, please drink responsibly.

11:45

Hey, it's Francis Lam, host of The Splendid

11:47

Table. And you know, I just wanna tell you that our show

11:49

is a great place to come to. It's a

11:51

holiday sanity. We're getting cooking

11:53

help from amazing people this holiday season,

11:56

including chef Christian Kish, Eric Ripert, Abra

11:58

Baron and Copac. Jocelyn

12:01

Jelk-Adam, Dan Plosie, and Amy

12:03

Phelan. We have cooking, eating, and

12:05

gifting ideas for anyone you're going to have

12:07

at your table, but listen to this Splendid

12:09

Table wherever you get your podcasts. I'll

12:12

see you soon. Welcome

12:22

back to the Dinner SOS Cookie Swap

12:24

Swap. So

12:26

like last year, we didn't really have

12:28

a strong cookie moment. There were a

12:30

couple as part of the Claire Safitz

12:33

package of recipes. I don't know. I

12:35

think the question of like every brand

12:37

every year seems to come out with

12:39

anywhere from one to like seven new

12:42

cookie recipes. And at the

12:44

end of the day, like how many people like need another cookie

12:46

recipe? You know, that was that was me. Like

12:48

I guess I had taken the page out of Inez's book last

12:50

year. So we didn't do it. And we

12:53

were mad at you. And you guys were mad at me

12:55

in subtext. Well, you were like,

12:57

you know, the space is inundated with cookies, which

12:59

it is. People will get their cookies elsewhere if

13:01

they need to. And we can provide a different

13:03

service, which is a good point. And

13:06

yet I was like, I want to do

13:08

cookies. I

13:10

know. And then we didn't do it. And

13:12

then I was like, oh, I feel like

13:15

15 percent sadder. You know, we didn't tackle

13:17

cookies as a team, you know. And

13:20

when this year rolled around, I think

13:22

we all felt so strongly

13:24

that we wanted to have a really

13:26

fun cookie moment. And I feel like

13:28

we did it. Yeah. I'm so happy that we

13:31

did it in this way, too, where every

13:33

member of the test kitchen got to

13:35

like do their thing. And we got

13:37

to see the breadth of what

13:40

a cookie box curated by our

13:42

group would look like. Totally. And

13:44

they took all types of forms and

13:47

shapes. And the whole conceit was sort

13:49

of like the BA kind of test

13:51

kitchen slash staff does a cookie swap.

13:53

Right. We all kind of bring our

13:55

own kind of cookies and personalities and

13:58

ideas and personas to the end. the

14:00

table. Well, except for

14:02

me, of course, because I did not develop a cookie this

14:04

year. I

14:06

just ate the cookies this year. But the fact that

14:08

we did them was enough for me. And

14:11

so I want to do a cookie

14:13

swap swap, where we go around and

14:15

we each talk about one of the

14:17

cookies that our colleagues made this year

14:20

that we just totally fell head over

14:22

heels for. How does that sound? Sounds

14:25

good. I'm in agreement. Yeah.

14:27

And, and as like, I want like 38%

14:30

more energy, like the work is done, the

14:33

hard part is over. Don't worry, we're not

14:35

going to make you do another cookie for

14:37

like at least nine months. It was

14:39

definitely a challenge, but I am glad

14:41

to be on the other side of it. Okay.

14:43

And Nez, take us out of the gate here.

14:45

What was the cookie, you know, from the ones

14:48

that we developed this year that you want to

14:50

talk about? I think hands down, it's the one

14:52

that embodies just sort of my philosophy

14:54

around cookies and my sentiments, but also

14:57

like ease me into just like, okay,

14:59

I can accept this cookie. It

15:01

was Rachel's chili cheese cookie.

15:03

I think it was one of those

15:05

things that I'd never seen before. Could

15:07

not conceptualize it. I think when she

15:10

was first like telling me about the idea, I

15:12

was like, how are we going to bridge that

15:14

sort of world between like something being a savory

15:16

cracker and then a cookie? Like what is a

15:18

cookie? I think it sent me into this space

15:20

of just like thinking of that. And that existentialism

15:22

brought me to one of the greatest things I've

15:25

ever had. I think it had everything that I

15:27

could ever want. It was salty, one

15:29

of my faves. It had cheddar

15:31

cheese. So it was sharp and had

15:33

a generous just like addition of Aleppo

15:35

around the sugar crusting. There's something just

15:37

about how everything came together. Everything was

15:39

so cohesive, but so different. It's one

15:41

of those things that you could never

15:43

imagine until you have it. I

15:45

would have never seen it working as well as it

15:48

did. And it's beautiful. Like it's just everything I like

15:50

about eating. It's the way it looks, it's the way it

15:52

tastes. And then also just like the way

15:54

it reimagined for me what cookies can be

15:56

was really what sold it for me. Yeah,

15:58

it's like it's so squarely cookies. Like

16:00

the thing about that cookie is like

16:02

we've done like the Ina Garden, we

16:04

did it in the magazine I think

16:07

for last Thanksgiving even, the Ina Garden

16:09

slice and bake crackers that were like

16:11

cheddar crackers or chipotle cheese crackers and

16:13

while the slice and bake part of

16:15

it are the same for those two

16:17

things they could not taste more different.

16:19

They're so distinct and this is 100%

16:23

belongs in your cookie box, belongs

16:25

on your dessert table energy. It's

16:27

the sweetness against the chili that is like

16:29

out of this world. Right and it's so

16:32

not a cracker I think that was the

16:34

thing too where I was just like how

16:36

did you get this to be so buttery

16:38

and like so smooth, it's so delicious. It's

16:40

so good. Yeah I agree like there's something

16:43

about preserving that slightly open tender

16:45

buttery crumbly more like almost

16:47

like sable texture of like

16:50

a sweet almost like shortbread style

16:52

cookies but then overlays this like

16:54

savoriness to it. It's not that

16:56

it doesn't have sugar and to

16:58

your point it's not that it's

17:00

like a cracker it has that

17:02

like wonderful kind of melt-in-your-mouth quality

17:04

tempered slightly by the fact that there

17:07

is that sort of like solidity you

17:09

know from the cheese that kind of

17:11

comes in and sort of like supports

17:13

that structure but it's a real fun

17:15

kind of like hybrid of like both

17:17

sweet and savory and just so nicely

17:19

done. Yeah my husband who is

17:21

usually like anti sweet thing in

17:23

his savory he's like you know get the fruit

17:26

out of the salad type of energy. I brought

17:28

him home like a curt container of

17:31

these chili cheese cookies and

17:33

he demolished them. Totally.

17:35

What about you Rachel? Which cookie did you

17:38

pick? I picked Kendra's

17:40

Matcha Swell Spritz cookies

17:42

actually. They are

17:44

Grinch colored but I feel

17:47

like in your cookie box you need a

17:49

cookie like this you

17:51

know that just oozes the

17:53

holidays it is so inviting

17:55

it's so bright and it's

17:57

so fun and And

18:00

as I was testing this recipe, I

18:02

realized how easy it is to make.

18:05

Just like this cookie is your inn.

18:07

So you know, if I was friends

18:09

with Inez as a kid, I would

18:11

be like, let's make these cookies because

18:13

you have two colors, they're fun. You

18:16

know, you use your little spritz

18:18

press, which makes it more fun,

18:21

and then you can decorate it.

18:23

So really an easy,

18:25

delicious, kind of fun, creative

18:28

cookie in your cookie box that

18:30

is needed. And they're so

18:32

durable. I think that sometimes when I saw you

18:35

making them with the gun, I was like, oh

18:37

my god, these are going to be dainty. You

18:40

blow on them, they shatter cookies. But I think

18:42

that just the integrity of them is also really

18:44

impressive, and there's so much more than meets the

18:47

eye. They're so gorgeous. Yeah. I

18:49

feel like cookie presses have fallen kind of out of

18:51

favor. I don't know, is that fair? No,

18:53

I think that's true. No, it's true. This

18:56

is a style of cookie that is born

18:58

of the fact that there are certain

19:00

doughs that just have such a high

19:02

proportion of fat that you can't roll

19:04

and cut them because they would just

19:06

fall to bits. You'd never get them

19:08

off your surface. They're

19:11

too rich to be

19:13

sliced. I guess you

19:15

could drop the dough, but then you

19:17

would have a shapeless mass, right? But

19:19

instead, the dough is extruded

19:22

like pasta, right? The press is

19:24

pushing it through one

19:26

of many plates that come with

19:29

the press. And I'm sure

19:31

there's got to be some

19:33

wild Etsy store devoted to

19:36

specific vintage cookie press forms

19:38

to those dyes. And

19:40

it gives you this cookie that, and

19:43

I think you mentioned Danish butter cookies,

19:45

right? A cookie that is

19:47

like, it's so buttery and so

19:49

tender, so melt in your

19:52

mouth, just wants to just like evaness at

19:54

the touch, you know, of like a finger.

19:56

I have like a very strong association

19:59

with a high. holiday spritz cookies, because

20:01

my grandma, she always had green Christmas

20:03

trees in the mixture, right? And because

20:05

she was an Italian-American, she had to

20:07

put like multi-colored nome parades all

20:09

over them. I mean, just like literally she

20:12

must have had a cannon, she would just

20:14

like be firing colored sprinkles at like everything

20:16

she ever baked. But with this cookie, with

20:18

the chili cheese cookie, and the ones that,

20:20

you know, we're gonna be talking about shortly

20:22

as well, I think the question for me

20:25

is always like, what is the thing that's

20:27

gonna draw people in? You know, like what

20:29

about each cookie makes it feel familiar

20:31

and inviting? But what is like that

20:34

additional layer that's new that we're bringing

20:36

to it this year? And that inclusion

20:38

of matcha really felt like the one

20:40

thing that was gonna make this spritz

20:43

cookie feel like it was different from

20:45

every other spritz cookie out there. Yeah,

20:48

for sure. And crazily, great timing, we actually

20:50

just tested, I was talking to Sonia Chopra

20:52

earlier and she was like, you should figure

20:54

out a way that you can use this

20:56

dough for people who don't have a press.

20:58

So just earlier this morning, we sort of

21:01

marbled the two colors together and rolled it

21:03

into a log and then froze that for

21:05

30 minutes and then sliced and baked it

21:07

and it worked great. So if you don't

21:09

have a press, you actually can still make

21:11

these cookies. They won't be as like extraordinarily

21:13

gorgeous, but they are

21:15

really delicious still. If I do say so

21:18

myself, they are. Okay, Kendra,

21:20

you are up next. Okay, so

21:22

the cookies that I chose were the

21:24

cookies that were the biggest journey this

21:28

year, which were Inez's baklava cookies.

21:32

They were absolutely worth, there was a

21:34

lot of trial, but it was worth

21:36

it. And a lot of error. It's okay,

21:38

there's even more error at the trial. It

21:40

was so worth it. Inez came

21:42

in with this idea of baklava, but

21:44

make it a cookie, which you

21:47

just hear that phrase and you're like, I'm in, sold,

21:49

take all my money, I

21:51

want that. And with such

21:53

diligence, she tried to

21:56

make their beef silo dough

21:58

in this cookie. like

22:00

tried so hard to make that be

22:02

true and it fought her every step

22:04

of the way to the point where

22:07

at the end it was like no

22:09

we're not using this dough at all

22:11

we're taking the beautiful honey nutty gorgeous

22:13

filling of a piece of baklava

22:16

and we're stuffing it into the

22:18

belly of sugar cookie dough and

22:21

baking it off and then we're

22:23

tossing that in this spiced rose

22:25

petal sugar mixture I mean

22:28

it is not only so

22:30

delicious like when you bite into

22:32

it visually seeing that like nutty

22:35

belly on the inside molten inside

22:37

it's so good but also the

22:39

fragrance like it really if you

22:41

just close your eyes it smells

22:43

like baklava that mixture of pistachio

22:45

and rose it's so evocative to

22:48

me this is definitely the

22:50

cookie that I will be making this year

22:52

I think it's so stunning and the payoff

22:54

is huge I know there was it was

22:56

a labor of love but we are so

22:58

grateful to you for sticking with it

23:00

thank you so much what a curse

23:02

earlier I want to evidence right now

23:05

for someone who does not like cookies

23:07

in as it was amazing to see

23:09

your journey and then to just see

23:11

the result of this cookie being it's

23:14

a special cookie thank you so much

23:16

all and now we know below dough

23:21

other stuff yeah save a verse been

23:23

a copy that no

23:25

it definitely gave test kitchen giving

23:30

experience but I think it showed me to

23:32

just like that's the whole point of this or just

23:34

like I think that's what's so spectacular about each

23:36

one of these cookies that it really does

23:39

do the work of reimagining what a cookie is

23:41

and just like we get cookies every year yeah

23:43

I've never seen some like these no these are

23:45

it's so good and like when you say it's

23:48

a cookie but it's baklava there are a

23:50

lot of different directions you could go because

23:52

baklava can be a lot of different things

23:55

and this I think is like the perfect

23:57

combination I love it so much it's a

23:59

great Yeah, there was pretty much a

24:01

0% chance of us walking out

24:04

of this recording session, not having

24:06

discussed the baklava cookie, even if nobody had

24:08

chosen it. Because

24:10

I think developing recipes professionally is

24:12

sort of predicated on this notion

24:15

of being able to

24:17

sort of like pitch people an idea,

24:19

right? Like baklava cookie, that

24:21

sounds great. It's like take something that

24:23

is familiar and you know, but add

24:25

an element that is unfamiliar and away

24:27

you go off to the kitchen to

24:29

make it a reality. Well, I mean,

24:32

like the nature of recipe developing is

24:34

that you hope you can make good

24:36

on that promise or otherwise stated to

24:38

your point, Kendra, like there's multiple

24:41

sort of possible outcomes

24:43

to that setup, right?

24:46

And it's so rare that what we

24:48

initially go into pitches with is what

24:51

comes out there at the end. But

24:53

like it inevitably goes through mountains of

24:55

changes or else you didn't really test

24:58

it. Yeah, there's a

25:00

lot of trial and error because yeah,

25:02

to your point, it's like we were

25:04

using phyllo dough and ways that were,

25:07

you know, perhaps like not entirely in

25:09

line with its capabilities. But we were

25:11

really trying to push crimes against culinary.

25:16

But I think that was really important

25:18

in that. Like I know like sometimes

25:20

the journey is very painful, you know,

25:22

and I agree like there comes a

25:24

moment where I think we all kind

25:27

of collectively sense that like, you know

25:29

what, you're not just going to simply cook

25:31

your way out of this problem. You need

25:33

to pivot, you need to adapt and you

25:36

need to kind of find a new direction

25:38

to let this concept, this idea breathe. And

25:40

I think you did that so well. The

25:42

moment at which, you know, you kind of

25:45

maintained, you know what, this is not meant

25:47

to be a phyllo based cookie. We are

25:49

going to do something different. We are going

25:51

to do like essentially like a drop style

25:54

sort of neutral sugar cookie dough. And we're

25:56

going to encase the filling within it. Like,

25:58

hey, at that point, go. for it. It

26:00

sounds really smart, it solves

26:02

the problem, and it still delivers on

26:04

that sort of central premise of like,

26:07

we're going to give you a baklava

26:09

cookie. Even more so, I would argue.

26:11

Like, I didn't know that this would be

26:13

the case, but if we had

26:15

used it, and you had miraculously gotten it

26:17

to be a cookie, I would have been

26:20

like, well, this is just baklava, but in

26:22

a different shape. And this instead really delivered

26:24

on it being a cookie, but with the

26:26

flavors of baklava. Right. And I think it

26:28

challenged me ultimately to define like, in my

26:30

own mind, okay, what is baklava? It's not

26:32

flaky pastry. That's flaky pastry. Yeah. So

26:34

then it also gives you an opportunity

26:37

to assess, what is this thing? And ask

26:39

those questions for yourself. You can experience something so

26:41

many times, but until you really sit with it and

26:43

like sort of like dissect it, you don't know what

26:45

it is. Yeah. Well, lastly,

26:48

the cookie that I wanted

26:50

to talk about is Jesse

26:52

Chef-Chex Morris cookie. And

26:55

part of the reason is that

26:57

the process was almost exactly like

26:59

the baklava cookie, right? It's like

27:01

somebody says s'mores cookie and the

27:04

deep voice inside you is just

27:06

like, yes, I want that. But

27:09

the question is like, okay, what

27:11

aspect of a s'mores are you

27:13

trying to recreate and how and

27:16

how do you do it in such

27:18

a way that a home cook, somebody who

27:20

doesn't feel nearly the same confidence that you

27:22

might in the kitchen, is able

27:24

to follow it and recreate

27:26

that. And Jesse started off

27:28

making sort of a Linzer

27:30

style cookie. It was like

27:32

a graham cracker crumb based

27:34

dough that then used

27:37

a layer of toasted marshmallow

27:39

in the sort of like

27:41

what would normally be the jam layer of a

27:43

Linzer with a window pane sort of top slab

27:45

of cookie on top of it. Forgot that's

27:47

how this cookie started. Yeah, how it

27:50

started, right? I mean, isn't that like,

27:52

freaking wild? We kind of

27:54

looked at it and we're like, this is like really

27:56

clever. This is pleasant. And then it was like, yeah,

27:58

let's change it. Like, it's not enough. Just

28:00

because it's reimagining the s'mores

28:02

experience, it's not necessarily taking

28:04

what's great about a s'mores

28:06

and amplifying that, right?

28:08

And actually when you sit there and think

28:10

about it, is a s'mores like that good?

28:13

You know, if you weren't in the woods,

28:15

if you hadn't gotten bitten by like 100

28:17

mosquitoes that day and also had a sunburn,

28:19

would it hit the same way? And

28:22

so instead of like hard kind

28:24

of crappy graham crackers, like you

28:26

forgot about last summer and hour,

28:28

like back for like this summer's

28:30

s'mores rodeo, you have like a

28:32

drop style cookie that's very tender

28:34

and uses graham cracker crumbs still

28:37

in the dough, but it's like

28:39

a soft, chewy, crispy cookie. You

28:41

then have marshmallow fluff store-bought, which

28:43

is broiled in the oven. Like

28:45

I couldn't believe this. He just

28:47

spreads it out on a baking

28:49

sheet, broils the heck out of

28:51

it until it's like black and

28:54

then incorporates that torched marshmallow

28:56

stir that back through the

28:58

rest of the fluff. And

29:00

funnily enough, you would think that a whole

29:03

thing would turn black. It doesn't, it's still

29:05

like mostly white. And it comes off the

29:07

sheet pan really easy. It's actually crazy. Like

29:10

how does it, I don't even know. I

29:13

thought that was gonna be a disaster to clean

29:15

up and he just scraped it right off and

29:17

plopped it back in the jar, it's amazing. Yeah,

29:20

completely. And then he has like a water-based ganache.

29:22

So just like a mixture of melted chocolate with

29:24

water just to thin it out so that it

29:27

stays kind of supple when it firms back up.

29:29

And then it's done, you know, as a sandwich

29:31

cookie. What do we call

29:33

that? Like a whoopie pie. Yeah, so

29:35

it's like, again, it's like following these

29:37

like really fun, really compelling kind of

29:39

ideas and inspiration, but following them through

29:41

the journey of how they became a

29:43

reality and all the decisions that kind

29:45

of went into it along the way.

29:47

I just love that like it took

29:50

all of the great things about

29:52

s'mores and made them better and

29:54

made them replicable and something that

29:56

you can pass out on a

29:58

plate around the holidays. anytime

30:00

of year, frankly. It would really only

30:02

be Jesse, Cookie, Prince, who would think,

30:04

I'm going to take graham crackers, flip

30:07

them into a powder, and then use

30:09

that as the flower in my cup.

30:12

Like, that's some evil scientist thinking,

30:14

and it paid off. All

30:20

right. We're going to take another break. When

30:22

we get back, we've got a cookie

30:24

box full of listener questions. If

30:37

you're like me, you're probably excited that

30:40

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30:42

with delicious favorites like mashed potatoes and

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biscuits, which is why

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31:41

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32:33

back to Dinner SOS. This

32:36

year we got a bunch of listener

32:38

questions about baking, gift-worthy cookies, and we're

32:40

going to tackle a few of them

32:42

together, mailbag style. Okay,

32:45

I'm reading the first question. Email

32:48

from Callie. I'm an avid

32:50

cook slash baker and stay-at-home mom

32:52

with three kids under three. Yikes.

32:56

And I'm wanting to do lovely treat

32:58

boxes for my neighbors this year. However,

33:00

my free time is limited and I'd

33:02

love to be able to do prep

33:05

work early in the season as I

33:07

have windows of time. Is there a

33:09

collection of cookies, confections, desserts, etc. that

33:12

freeze well ahead of time, look gorgeous,

33:14

and can be arranged in a Pinterest-worthy

33:16

manner for holiday gifting? I love

33:18

this question. This woman is my mother.

33:21

My mom makes not, you

33:23

know, my Aunt Mary Ann's level of cookies,

33:25

but a good number of cookies every year.

33:28

And she makes them like the week after

33:30

Thanksgiving and freezes them all. And then they

33:32

live in our freezer until the week of

33:34

Christmas when she takes them all out and

33:36

arranges them and gives them to people and

33:38

whatever. Cookies stand up really,

33:40

really well to the freezer, fully baked. And all

33:43

you have to do is like take them out

33:45

and put them on a platter and they will

33:47

come to room temperature on their own and they

33:49

are no worse for it. There's a lot

33:51

of cookie doughs that you can freeze as

33:53

doughs and then bake them off if you

33:56

want sort of like more freshness to that.

33:58

But the fully baked cookie will... last.

34:00

My mom does it like she piles them

34:02

on a paper plate and then puts the

34:04

plate in a ziplock bag and then piles

34:06

the ziplock bag paper plates in the freezer

34:08

and you know, divided

34:11

by type of cookie. But that really

34:13

works. Fully agree. Whether you

34:15

want to do frozen dough, in which

34:18

case, you know, portioning your cookies

34:20

ahead of time is key unless it's

34:22

a slice and bake like portioning rolling

34:24

into balls freezing on a baking

34:26

sheet and then transferring to a ziplock

34:29

and labeling it. That's

34:31

definitely the play with like so many drop style

34:33

of cookies. I think you could

34:35

make caramels in advance. Coffee

34:37

caramel. They last such a long time

34:40

and you don't need to freeze them.

34:42

From our cookie package, I would recommend

34:44

she make the matcha spritz, even

34:46

the chili cheese cookies and

34:49

Hannah's tiramisu cookies. You could totally make them

34:51

in advance, I think, and just freeze it

34:53

and then let them come to room temperature

34:55

and they would taste the same. I think

34:57

so. I think they would even be really

35:00

good cold. Yeah, I think they Hannah's cookies,

35:02

those tiramisu cookies. Another like insane

35:04

transformation of snow-dwell cookies. Yeah. Love

35:07

that. Any final thoughts for Callie? I think

35:09

most of the cookies in this package even

35:11

are giving Pinterest. Yeah. I think that like

35:14

she has so many options. Perfect. And we

35:16

love a proactive queen. Get on your holiday

35:18

baking now. Correct. Okay.

35:20

All right. Next up, we have a voice memo

35:23

from Abby. Hi,

35:26

Chris. I have a holiday dinner

35:28

SOS and it has to do

35:30

with holiday cookies. So always try

35:32

to make like a bunch of office cookies and

35:35

every year, I mean, I don't mind

35:37

that it's a whole thing, but every year I

35:39

try to do like a molasses cookie, a chocolate

35:41

chip cookie, you know, maybe like a frosted cookie.

35:44

And I feel like when I make these cookie recipes

35:47

always taste better. Like the fact that there's

35:49

so much going on in the one cookie

35:52

bake-a-thon, if you will, seems like you

35:54

lose a little quality. And I was

35:56

thinking there's probably like a cookie framework

35:58

that I don't know. know, like make

36:00

one dough and do a bunch of

36:02

things with it. So that's my holiday

36:05

dinner SOS. Wow.

36:07

OK. I mean, I feel like there's kind

36:09

of like two things in here for me. One

36:12

is just like, what's like a

36:14

category killing holiday cookie to like

36:16

rule them all, kind of, right?

36:18

But then also she's

36:20

asking about what is like a cookie

36:22

framework that she doesn't know to the

36:24

point of make one dough and potentially

36:26

do a bunch of things with it.

36:30

Like, to my mind, like one cookie

36:32

that does a bunch of things, I'm

36:34

always a little suspect about. Yeah.

36:36

Versatility is not necessarily what I'm

36:38

going for. I would like a

36:41

well-angled cookie rather than a well-rounded

36:43

cookie. Like, I want it to

36:45

be very much its own

36:47

sort of particular thing. I wouldn't

36:49

like it if we tried to make

36:51

Fridgels Chili Cheese Cookies B. Baclava.

36:54

You know what I mean? I want

36:56

it to feel distinctive. That said, like

36:58

a plain sugar cookie dough, you could

37:00

roll it out, punch out rounds, and

37:02

make a dulce de leche filling. And

37:05

now you have a sandwich cookie. You

37:07

could make a Linzer cookie with jam.

37:09

You could fold in chocolate or

37:11

frost the tops and use sprinkles. Like, you

37:13

could do quite a bit with a single

37:15

sugar cookie dough, but the taste is just

37:17

going to be the same sort of across

37:19

the board. So I think that makes sense

37:21

for like if you want sort of visual

37:24

variance. But in terms of one

37:26

spectacular bite, I think you're better

37:29

served finding a very unique cookie

37:31

flavor-wise that can sort of jolt

37:33

people out of the sort of

37:35

humdrum nature of eating the same

37:37

kind of cookie again and again.

37:39

Right. Or if you are making

37:42

a variety, you stick to some

37:44

of the classics, and then every

37:46

year you make one unique cookie.

37:48

One new cookie that you haven't

37:50

made before satisfies everything. Somebody wants

37:52

a chocolate chip cookie. It's there. Or

37:55

a gingerbread one. It's there. And then you

37:57

push the limits a little bit with a

37:59

new cookie. The wild card, yeah. Yeah, and

38:01

that's the beauty of the project, right? I

38:03

think it goes back to cookies, like, in my

38:05

mind at least being inherently laborious. Like there's

38:07

a reason that you're taking on the project and

38:10

not getting the tin of cookies that have the

38:12

same dough, just like they all taste the

38:14

same. So I think that just like that's the

38:16

beauty of the process of it all. Yeah,

38:18

I actually I'm going to revise my earlier statement.

38:20

If she is going to do one thing

38:22

to use multiple ways, I think the molasses cookie

38:25

that she mentioned could live a couple of different

38:27

lives. Like you could roll the ball in

38:29

sugar before you bake it so it

38:31

has that crust, sugar crust outside. You

38:33

could, you know, the softer sort of

38:35

chewier molasses cookies you could make into

38:37

like a whoopie pie style by

38:40

like sandwiching a cream between them.

38:42

You could ice the top of

38:44

it, but that does feel distinctly

38:47

holiday in flavor more than a

38:49

sugar cookie does to me. Correct.

38:52

Yeah, I agree with all this. My

38:54

advice is like don't expect one dough

38:56

to do multiple things necessarily

38:58

like from like a flavor perspective. Like as

39:01

soon as you start adding different ingredients to

39:03

a dough, like they can change the structure

39:05

of the dough, they can impact performance. But

39:07

what Kendra is talking about with the molasses

39:09

cookies using that one dough for its own

39:12

merits, but kind of like almost doing like

39:14

a finishing treatment that kind of skews it

39:16

in one direction or another. Like the example

39:18

I was thinking of is like either

39:21

with your spritz cookie as well,

39:23

Kendra, or like, you know, my

39:25

zebra striped shortbread cookie swirling in

39:27

like a different color. You can

39:29

do like, you know, multiple tints

39:32

to the dough using food coloring

39:34

and then use multiple standing sugar

39:36

colors and types around the outside.

39:39

Just that, like letting each cookie kind of

39:41

like do its own thing, but just doing

39:43

like a final kind of like visual treatment

39:45

can multiply the impact of

39:47

your cookie, even if it's starting from

39:49

like a very simple place with

39:52

just like one dough. Totally.

39:54

Okay, so from Jessica, I've got,

39:57

I'm a competent cook, but I

39:59

don't. really bake. But I love

40:01

holiday cookie boxes. I've compromised with

40:03

myself by learning how to make

40:05

biscotti and nothing else. The

40:07

problem is that each year I like to make

40:10

three or four kinds and usually I'm trying to

40:12

create at least one new flavor. When I look

40:14

for recipes to start from, they vary dramatically and

40:16

since I don't know a lot about baking, I

40:18

can't wrap my head around what it means that

40:20

one recipe calls for six eggs and another calls

40:22

for three eggs plus one egg yolk. I

40:25

know it matters, but not how or why. So

40:27

the problem comes when I try to put new

40:29

stuff in the biscotti, I'm throwing off the

40:31

delicate balance of dry and wet and

40:33

hard and soft and that isn't always

40:35

great. Can you help me with a

40:37

base recipe and tips about adding things

40:39

like dried fruit, nuts, cocoa powder and

40:41

extracts? I'm lucky that my family will

40:43

eat them no matter what, but that

40:45

doesn't stop me from wanting to quote,

40:47

get it right. Paging Jesse's chest

40:50

track. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,

40:52

beep, beep. Jesse, Jesse solved this

40:54

problem for you. Almost like it

40:56

was meant to be. It's like

40:59

the do anything biscotti cookie

41:01

recipe for Epicurious. It's truly exactly what you're

41:04

looking for. I can't believe it. We've solved

41:06

your problem in the most purposed way. It's

41:08

like how can the base be vanilla? How

41:11

can the base be chocolate? Do you want

41:13

to fold in nuts or dried fruit or

41:15

whatever? Do you want to glaze on top?

41:17

Do you want a chocolate dip?

41:19

Lots of different variations built within the

41:21

same base recipe framework so you don't

41:23

have to do what we do all

41:26

the time, which is that crazy math

41:28

to make sense of varying recipes. Correct.

41:30

I want to say it's like any

41:32

Scotty. So cute. Yeah, we've seen this

41:36

before with like brownies, etc. When

41:39

you start throwing like cocoa powder

41:41

around, that is going to function

41:43

as a dry ingredient, almost as

41:45

though you've added flour and that's

41:47

going to create toughness and hardness

41:50

and certain elements like nuts and

41:52

dried fruit can be interchangeable. But

41:54

just starting from one great base

41:56

recipe, exactly that Jesse recipe was

41:58

phenomenal. It's like not too

42:01

hard, but not too soft,

42:03

and it seemed incredibly easily

42:05

accommodating of a multitude of

42:07

mix-ins. I

42:12

hope we solved cookies for this year, but

42:15

I guess time will tell, right? Any

42:17

final cookie thoughts from anyone? I

42:20

think you should make them. Just

42:22

make cookies. Make the cookies. And

42:26

don't let your past cookie-hating stop

42:28

you from participating in

42:31

the cookie festivities. Give it a try. Hear,

42:33

hear. Well, listen, thank you all

42:36

so much for joining us and

42:38

for all of your contributions to

42:40

this amazing, beautiful cookie package. I'm

42:43

so glad we jumped back into

42:45

cookies wholeheartedly. Mouths open this

42:47

year, and yeah, it's really fun to have

42:49

you all on. I'm going to remind you

42:52

next year when you try to say we

42:54

don't need cookies, I'm going to play this episode

42:56

back for you. I know. Your

42:58

15% regret. Well, you

43:00

know, there'll be another mountain to climb next year.

43:02

There always is. If

43:08

you have a dinner emergency on

43:10

your hands, write to us at

43:12

dinnersos at bonappetite.com or

43:14

leave us a voice message at 212-286-SOS1. That's

43:19

212-286-7071. You

43:22

can find

43:24

the cookie recipes mentioned on today's episode

43:26

on Epicurious app, brought to you by

43:28

Condé Nast. Just search

43:30

Epicurious in the app store and download today.

43:33

If you enjoyed this episode, please give

43:35

us a rating and review on your

43:37

podcast app of choice and

43:39

hit that follow button so you never miss an

43:41

episode. Thanks

43:43

for listening to Dinner SOS. I'm

43:46

your host, Chris Morocco. My

43:48

co-hosts this week are Inez Anciano,

43:50

Rachel Gerger, and Kendra Vaculin. Our

43:53

producer is Michelle O'Brien. Jordan

43:55

Bell is our executive producer. Peyton

43:57

Hayes is our associate producer. Cameron

44:00

Soos is our assistant producer. Jake

44:02

Loomis is our studio engineer. Amar

44:05

Lal makes this episode. Next

44:08

week, Ruby's in charge of Christmas

44:10

dinner for her husband's family, but

44:12

the number of dietary restrictions simply

44:14

overwhelms. So

44:17

in this family, there is a garlic

44:20

allergy. I am

44:23

celiac. We have

44:25

a dairy-free family member. We

44:28

have a no-pork family member, and

44:31

we have a flexitarian who will

44:33

eat chicken. That's mostly

44:35

it. And it's

44:38

just a lot to accommodate for.

44:57

Thank you. Thank

45:27

you. I

45:47

just know that you're a foodie who

45:49

loves to learn, so I'm excited to

45:51

tell you about if this food could

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talk from our friends at APT Podcast

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Studios. I recently named a new and

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noteworthy podcast by Apple Podcast. and

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talk is a brand new history show for

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everyone who eats. Each

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46:13

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46:15

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46:20

origin of the margarita pizza? Or

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Food Could Talk, available wherever

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