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eat six seven zero seven one or

1:00

send us an email to dinner eso

1:03

es at phone app a T.com We

1:05

can't wait to solve your problem. Poor.

1:09

Jake our beloved studio engineer and V

1:11

again you know, have to hear me

1:14

talk about meet somehow. It's like every

1:16

episode he noted me, him and his

1:18

just they are like freaking. Meat

1:20

eaters? Slick? Honestly? Hey

1:26

there listeners, future callers and cooking.

1:28

Enthusiasts welcome to dinner Eso es

1:30

the show where we help you

1:33

save dinner or whatever you're cooking.

1:35

I'm Chris Morocco food director of

1:37

Boehner. Petite and epicurious, Listen.

1:41

I like the outdoors and I even like

1:43

being off the grid from time to time.

1:46

But a my heart of hearts. I like

1:48

my pastries flaky and my coffee single origin.

1:50

so it's safe to say I'm a city

1:52

kid. Teddy's color, however.

1:55

Toby. Is Not. i

1:58

live in the alaskan interior

2:01

and it's a tiny off-grid cabin.

2:04

Wow. Like solar power, like

2:06

battery backup, the whole thing?

2:08

It's actually not even that

2:10

well set up, just a

2:12

portable generator. Wow. Occasionally, and

2:14

a propane fridge, oven, and

2:16

stove. Goodness. Wow.

2:18

What is it like to cook in your

2:21

setup up there? Very small. Luckily,

2:23

my partner and I do

2:25

it like a well-oiled machine. We

2:27

take our tiny corners and we

2:30

just cook up a storm all the time. We

2:32

both love to cook. Cleanup is

2:34

tricky. Grey water goes outside, so

2:36

it takes a lot of pre-cleaning

2:38

before dishes because we don't want to

2:41

attract grizzlies to the house. But

2:44

we do have a wide selection

2:46

of cookware and gadgetry and a

2:48

stocked pantry with most spices known

2:50

to man, as well as many

2:53

Asian curry paste and fresh herbs

2:55

that are still hanging on to the last

2:57

rays of sunlight before winter hits. Wow.

2:59

Well, you've certainly piqued my curiosity. What

3:02

made you want to call today? Well,

3:04

my partner Kyle is a successful hunter

3:06

and fisherman. We enjoy that the majority

3:09

of our protein is sustainably

3:11

sourced. Now, we have 90 pounds

3:13

of moose meat. Most

3:16

of it is ground meat and

3:19

I'm tired of burgers. I've had it

3:21

with spaghetti sauce and chili, and I'm

3:23

not a huge fan of shepherd's pie.

3:26

So although I'm very grateful for all this protein,

3:28

I'm not really sure what to do with it.

3:30

I grew up in a household where we

3:32

didn't really eat much red meat and I'm

3:35

running out of ideas. Oh my goodness. 90

3:37

pounds of moose meat is a lot of moose

3:40

meat. It sure is. Are

3:42

you able to have somebody process the meat

3:44

for you? Because even setting that up is

3:46

a huge amount of effort, although obviously you're

3:49

getting the meat ostensibly mostly for free.

3:51

Yeah. We usually do it ourselves

3:53

at a friend's house. Then some

3:55

of it will have processed

3:58

into some gyms. And

4:01

sausage. We've tried to make some of

4:03

our own sausage and it hasn't worked

4:05

out that well. Is moose as lean

4:07

a meat as I'm imagining it is?

4:09

Like more in the vein of like

4:11

a venison? Yeah, it is so lean

4:14

you have to add fat to the

4:16

ground meat. Yeah. And were you able

4:18

to do that during the sausage making

4:20

process? Yeah, with the sausage making that

4:22

was actually with caribou which is also

4:25

quite gamey and tough and so I

4:27

think maybe the toughness was part of

4:29

the problem. But we added beef fat.

4:31

We tried pork fat with some of

4:34

them. They came out flavorful but not

4:36

sausage consistency. Maybe we just didn't get

4:38

enough fat in there but it also

4:40

seemed like the pieces of caribou even

4:43

though we ground it numerous times it

4:45

just seemed like the pieces

4:47

were still so tough and that's often

4:49

the case with moose too is sometimes

4:52

it's so tough. Yeah. You know like

4:54

the stew meat we have it takes

4:56

like two days in a crock pot.

4:58

Wow. To get it edible.

5:00

So ground is really the way to

5:02

go. Yep, yep. Wow. I remember

5:05

Brad Leone former colleague you know he

5:07

his dad used to make a killer

5:10

venison kielbasa and I think he

5:12

was probably putting 30 percent pork

5:15

fat in there by weight which is a

5:17

lot right. I mean if you're looking at

5:19

90 pounds of mousse sausage you would obviously

5:22

need like a significant amount of pork fat

5:24

in order to like make sausage with that

5:26

kind of quantity. So when

5:29

you said you grew up not eating a lot of

5:31

red meat what was on the table? We ate

5:33

a lot of chicken and

5:36

pasta and a little bit of

5:38

fish. My mother was a bit of a

5:40

health nut so generally it was healthy and

5:43

flavorless which is why I have rebelled and

5:45

become a delightful cook. That's

5:48

great. I love that for you. Are

5:50

there any foods that you

5:52

just love eating? Like any flavors

5:55

that you just crave? I love

5:58

Asian flavors. Mediterranean

6:01

flavors, vinegars,

6:03

I love spicy, of

6:06

just any kind of spice. Cool,

6:09

okay. So where

6:11

we're at in my mind, and tell me if

6:13

this sounds right, is we've got 90 pounds

6:16

of moose meat burning a hole in your freezer. We

6:19

gotta figure out some really bold,

6:21

compelling things to do with it.

6:23

This is such a specific problem,

6:26

but I love it

6:28

because I think your willingness to

6:30

embrace flavors of all types, I

6:32

think puts you in a really

6:34

good place. And clearly you're somebody

6:36

who loves food and cares about

6:38

food, and you're very, have

6:40

a spirit of adventure in all senses.

6:43

And I just need to figure

6:45

out who the right person is to

6:48

chat with about this, because I have

6:50

one person in mind, but have to see

6:53

what they're up to. They're probably out hunting

6:55

moose right now as we speak. When

7:02

I said the person I was hoping

7:04

to find for this episode was probably

7:06

out hunting at that moment, I wasn't

7:09

that far off. I

7:11

had a bull elk in my scope at 150

7:13

yards, and it

7:15

was eight degrees and three feet of

7:17

snow laying on my stomach for about

7:19

20 minutes, and I couldn't get a

7:21

good true count on his antlers. So

7:24

I just kind of let it walk away. But to

7:26

be honest with you, that's all part of it. A

7:29

lot of it is a pure torture of

7:32

waking up at four in the morning, hiking 3,000

7:34

vertical seats, four

7:36

miles, and freezing. Be

7:40

like Cairo is an avid hunter and

7:42

also an incredible charcuterie maker. His

7:45

company, Olympia Provisions, makes some of

7:47

the best cured meats and sausages

7:49

I've ever tasted, seriously.

7:52

When I try just regular

7:56

salami, salumi, like all kinds

7:58

of cured pork products... versus

8:00

yours. I mean, it is night and day. Oh,

8:02

that makes me so happy to hear it. I

8:04

love the meat, and there's no doubt that's why

8:06

I do it. I feel so

8:08

fortunate that I'm so connected to meat in all

8:11

of my aspects and what it really takes. But

8:13

that is the thing where I go home with my wife,

8:15

and I have friends over, and I share it with all

8:17

my family, and they love the meat. That's like one of

8:19

the best things I could cook and do all of it.

8:22

It's just so important. But then I get to tell the

8:24

stories and like how hard it is and

8:26

how crappy it is and why I do these things. Two

8:28

weeks ago, we shot a bunch of mountain quail, which

8:30

are these coastal berry quails. My

8:32

wife's a thom, and she makes wine, and she has

8:35

an amazing palate. And we smoke them in our backyard

8:37

open fire over cherry wood that we had in the

8:39

backyard. You know, I think, Chris, it is so cheesy.

8:42

I'm so over the top. But we're like drinking homemade

8:44

wine, eating birds that we had just

8:46

shot over cherry trees. I'm like, yeah, we're idiots, and this is

8:48

a little bit over the top, but this is as happy as

8:50

I've ever been in my life. I

8:53

knew like I needed a specialist on this

8:55

one, because it is not my area of

8:57

expertise. I mean, I think the range of

8:59

service possible is so wide. And I

9:02

think, honestly, just to hear you talk

9:04

about like what do you do with

9:06

all of like the wild game that

9:08

you hunt and you process yourself? Oh,

9:10

for sure. When I usually am convincing

9:12

ranchers or people that aren't daring and

9:14

they eat a lot of it, I

9:16

love introducing them to panade and the

9:18

idea of bread and

9:21

a fat to it and what that does to the texture of

9:23

a meatball or to a crepe a nut or

9:25

the way to wrap those situations

9:27

into it, like a nut and a fruit and

9:30

a meatball that is roasted and put on things

9:33

is quite an unbelievable. If

9:35

they have access to call fat, which sounds like these

9:38

people might not, but that's something you usually

9:40

can get in an area that's kind of

9:43

an interesting way. I can obviously teach them

9:45

all of the ways that pates are a

9:48

way to utilize lean meats and

9:50

to add the flavor and to cover more meats.

9:53

If they're interested in making it into sausage, I

9:55

know I could teach them the tricks that would give it a better

9:57

texture and how to hide from it. That

10:00

all sounds great. Well, listen,

10:04

I'm patting myself on the back because clearly

10:06

I called the right person. Heck

10:08

yeah. I love this

10:10

stuff. Thank

10:16

goodness for Eli. After the

10:19

break, Eli and Toby get into how the

10:21

sausage is made. Hi,

10:33

I'm Lale Arakoglu, host of Women

10:35

Who Travel. Each story

10:37

from our guests and listeners is totally

10:40

unique and utterly personal. We

10:42

love hearing about your first impressions when

10:44

visiting some place new. My

10:47

first trip to the Patagonia region

10:50

was on the Argentine side. I

10:53

couldn't believe the expansive

10:55

territory. It's like being

10:57

in Tibet. The emptiness and

10:59

the harshness, really, I found

11:02

transformative. Oh, the

11:04

story told when safety back and tried end.

11:07

You know, things happened every single day. I ran out

11:09

of gas on a jet ski in the middle of

11:11

the ocean and I was like, what

11:13

if a sea creature comes to eat

11:15

me? But then I'm delusional. I was like,

11:17

I'll make friends with it and it won't

11:20

eat me and maybe I'll ride that back

11:22

to shore. That's how it works. Join

11:24

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11:27

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12:32

Toby, welcome back. So

12:44

I feel like last time we spoke,

12:46

you had 90 pounds

12:49

of moose ground

12:52

in the freezer. Are you still at 90 right

12:55

now, or are we down like in the 80s?

12:58

I do have quite a bit

13:00

less moose now, probably in the

13:02

80s, and not all of

13:04

it is ground, it turns out. That's

13:06

fine too. Oh, interesting. Okay, well, all

13:08

right, good to know there's still enough

13:11

moose to work with. And

13:13

to that end, I wanted to introduce

13:15

you to Elias Caro. I

13:17

don't want to describe you for you. Why

13:19

don't you introduce yourself and tell Toby who

13:21

you are? Hi, Toby. Thanks

13:24

for having me. I'm Eli Cairo. I

13:26

am a professional charcuterie maker and an

13:28

avid hunter, a charcuterie maker if

13:30

you take all the fancy romanticism out

13:33

of that name, I just am

13:35

value added meat maker. But yeah, I

13:37

was lucky enough to spend about five

13:39

years in the Swiss Alps learning how

13:42

to preserve and cook all sorts

13:44

of wild game from ibex to elk to

13:46

beer. And it's pretty much

13:48

what I live for now is hunting and

13:50

I cure meat professionally. That is really cool.

13:53

Yeah. So Eli, I think you know,

13:55

you are somebody who kind of understands

13:57

meat in like a very deep way.

14:00

Did you have any kind of like

14:02

initial thoughts just about moose meat in

14:04

general? You know that might

14:06

be helpful for Toby to kind of

14:09

hear Is there anything that like even

14:11

just folks listening should like

14:13

what do people need to know about wild

14:15

game meat? Just in general.

14:17

Yeah, you know for me the first thing

14:19

it comes to mind when you're cooking wild

14:22

meat is the leanness And so right off

14:24

the bat the cards are stacked against you

14:26

if you're wanting a really moist mouth feel

14:29

And you have to kind of change your approach to

14:31

cooking it completely if you're more used

14:33

to cooking You know beef or pork

14:35

or even chicken to some extent and

14:37

then secondly I always like to understand

14:39

that not all wild game is created

14:41

equally in their stages of life or

14:43

how it's been handled I'd say the

14:45

most common thing people come to me

14:47

is like I'm really afraid of the

14:49

flavor of game Eenis and to me

14:51

that can come from all sorts of

14:53

different things for mishandling the animal in

14:55

the field and not being able to

14:58

Have a clean kill and having extra

15:00

hormones to it and then all the way

15:02

up into the rut of the animal It

15:04

was it mid-September when it's a bull elk

15:06

and he's fired up and he has way

15:08

more muskiness Is it a young

15:10

tender animal is it a 12 year old

15:13

bull? There's just so many nuances and so

15:15

Toby How does this moose taste important? Is

15:17

it pretty gamey? Is it really lean? I'm

15:19

gonna go ahead and assume is it chewy

15:22

Is it is it tough to get tender?

15:24

Well part of the problem is it's from

15:26

three different moves from the same hunt and

15:28

so there was a large bull a medium

15:32

cow and Probably a yearling. Mm-hmm.

15:34

So it's all kind of mixed

15:37

up We tried to keep track

15:39

and label which moves what came from but

15:42

when it came to the ground meat It's

15:44

all just sort of put together. So some

15:46

of it is a little game ear a

15:49

little chewier and with the ground stuff It's

15:51

hard to tell what we're getting. Yeah for

15:53

sure And let me just ask one more

15:55

question have you tried making sausage meat with

15:57

the ground meat not with this set of

15:59

animals but we had a

16:01

caribou two years ago and

16:03

we made several types of sausage with

16:05

it. And no matter how much fat

16:08

we added, the flavor was great, but

16:10

it was just so tough that it

16:12

was not like eating a sausage at

16:14

all. Would the

16:16

fat separate from the lean meat leaving

16:18

you like a dry, grainy texture in

16:20

your mouth? Yes. Yeah, that we can

16:22

start with right there to just, if

16:24

you're willing to try to make a

16:26

sausage again, there's a few key tricks

16:29

that I know that I can make

16:31

that happen. First off,

16:33

it's temperature of meat that you're using.

16:35

You got to get it really close

16:37

to freezing and ideal temperature is around

16:39

30 degrees of the lean

16:41

meat, as well as what we say

16:43

25 to 30 percent of the fat

16:45

back or pork or belly that

16:47

you were using into it. The reason

16:50

is if it gets hot, if it

16:52

gets too warm and it hits those

16:54

blades, it'll actually not form a bind.

16:57

So I would make sure my grinder

16:59

blades are sharp. My meat is really,

17:01

really close to frozen. And I would

17:04

run that through two or three separate

17:06

times. Okay. So you're you're regrinding that

17:08

meat on the same blade or the

17:11

same dye multiple times? As

17:13

long as you can keep the temperature down. Because what happens

17:15

if you have a duller blade and you shrink

17:17

down too fast, your temperature is going

17:19

to raise up from friction and then

17:21

your sausage is going to break. How

17:23

is this striking you, Toby? Does this

17:25

like sort of like make intuitive sense?

17:27

It does. I'm excited to try it.

17:29

And you have access to fat back

17:31

or pork fat of like one sort

17:33

or another? Yes. Okay. Okay. Because that

17:35

feels like, you know, just something to

17:37

underline for the audience is just like

17:39

to understand that, like, you know, while

17:41

there are probably certain styles of sausage

17:43

that do rely all exclusively on one

17:45

meat, like particularly, you know, sausage is

17:47

made from pork, you know, if you're

17:50

using a very lean meat, you typically

17:52

would add pork fat, whether it was

17:54

like moose, whether it was venison, etc.

17:57

Exactly. So the magic number is fat

17:59

content. 10 is around 21 and 30% fat. So

18:02

if you did a really good job of taking all

18:04

the fat and it's really lean in there, don't hesitate

18:06

to weigh it and get up to the 25 and

18:08

30% fat. Okay, that

18:11

sounds great. I'm curious, Eli, do you

18:13

have recipes like on your website or

18:15

elsewhere that you can direct Toby to

18:17

to kind of like walk through some

18:19

of these steps? Oh boy, Toby, I'm

18:22

so sending you my cookbook. Yay. It

18:24

starts at the very basics of all

18:26

curing meat and walks yourself all the

18:28

way up into dry curing, prosciuttoes to

18:31

fermenting salamis and making pate,

18:33

so on and so forth.

18:35

And I'm curious, Eli, like

18:37

what, so okay, let's presuppose

18:39

that Toby sources, you know,

18:41

beef and or pork fat

18:44

undertakes to make like one or

18:46

two styles of sausage, gets the

18:48

case things, does the whole thing,

18:50

right? I mean, that's like a

18:52

whole process unto itself, but okay,

18:54

at that point, right, sausage is

18:56

made. What advice do you

18:58

have in terms of how you

19:00

get the most out of this type

19:02

of sausage that she's gonna be able

19:04

to achieve here? Like, how are you

19:06

cooking it? How are you treating it?

19:08

How are you storing it? And like,

19:10

what are the takeaways here for just

19:12

a better sausage cookery for people who

19:14

aren't even hunting their own meat? Yeah,

19:17

I would also say don't shy away

19:19

from a breakfast patty. You know, first,

19:21

I do often say it gets a little bit overlooked

19:24

that you need to make a sausage into a casing.

19:26

And then that scares people because you have to buy

19:28

a stuff or you got to get the casing,

19:30

you have to sew on and so forth.

19:32

But if you could just get it to

19:34

the point where a good old fashioned breakfast

19:36

patty with a real sage and a real

19:38

maple sugar, you'd be surprised how much of

19:40

that you can consume and be the rave

19:42

of every breakfast table that you're at. Secondly,

19:44

I prefer to

19:46

slowly poach my sausages

19:48

before I cook them.

19:51

So if I'm gonna freeze them, I don't have a

19:53

way to cook them all, I portion them, keep them

19:55

all frozen, defrost them in my refrigerator, and then I'll

19:58

get my heating source via the fire. or

20:00

a grill or a pan ready to go.

20:02

But I'll bring my sausage up in a

20:04

slow amount of water. What happens there is

20:06

you're making sure that the entire sausage cooks

20:08

thoroughly through before you put it in the

20:10

hot pan. The hot pan or the grill

20:13

is just the texture on the outside of

20:15

the sausage. You're just trying to crisp up

20:17

your casing and making sure that it's crunchy

20:19

and got the nice color on it. But

20:21

what happens, the majority of people they'll throw

20:23

raw sausage directly on a grill too hot

20:25

and the outside of it will burst and

20:27

crunch in the middle of it will be

20:30

raw and just not the most enjoyable experience.

20:32

So, somewhere at first, get your sausage in

20:34

the right temperature and then all you're doing

20:36

is browning the outside. One

20:38

of the other greatest tricks that helps people, let's

20:40

say you get your fat content right, you formed

20:43

a good sausage bun. You're at that 30% is

20:45

one of the greatest tricks ever in

20:48

all of charcuterie making. There's a tool

20:50

that we call Panade. Panade is often

20:52

used in pates. It gives it its

20:54

texture. It is usually bread crumbs and

20:56

a fat and a booze. This

20:59

was so fascinating to

21:01

me because my awareness of

21:03

Panade comes precisely from meatloaf

21:05

type applications or meatballs where

21:08

very often there's some amount

21:10

of liquid, whether it's broth, milk,

21:12

cream, something like that, but also

21:14

with whole eggs. And that is

21:16

just fascinating to me. And also

21:18

just the notion that sausage making

21:21

in general, just to back up,

21:23

doesn't have to be centered

21:25

on the premise like you are

21:27

making linked sausage, making

21:29

people see charcuterie and sausage

21:31

making in particular as you

21:33

are seasoning and transforming ground

21:35

meat at the end of

21:37

the day. Not very flashy, is

21:39

it? It's not, it's not. It's not.

21:44

It sounds flashy to me. Yeah,

21:46

I mean, well, at least I hope we're getting through to you,

21:48

Toby, though, that

21:50

it sounds okay to you. I'm very excited

21:52

about this. I would love to be a

21:54

sausage maker and it doesn't matter if it's

21:56

in a casing to me. Okay, because I

21:58

think like, forming your meat

22:01

right at the end of the day in

22:03

a way that still keeps it like adaptable.

22:05

And you like, correct me if I'm wrong,

22:08

but like it's almost like you could process

22:10

as sausage some amount of this moose meat.

22:12

But at that point you don't necessarily have

22:15

to just like form it into patties and

22:17

sear it off, let alone

22:19

put it in a casing and grill,

22:21

whatever. You know, you could just kind

22:23

of almost use that as like a

22:25

starting point to make kind of a

22:27

range of things. Right? Just with that

22:29

added fat, I think you would probably perform

22:32

so much better. Exactly. You know, if you

22:34

get that ground and you're able to get

22:36

that bind, you know, then you could form

22:38

it into an Italian sausage to crumble on

22:40

pizza or to fold into, oh gosh, onto

22:42

your pasta or put it in with your

22:44

clams or so on and so forth. And

22:46

you can make it spicy. You're just kind

22:48

of making that base level. And then the

22:50

rest is yours. You know, the most classic

22:53

way to deal with lean meat is a

22:55

very fancy word that we call crepe. And

22:57

a crepe in that is when you take

22:59

a sausage meat or even slightly

23:01

lean meat and you wrap it in a call

23:03

fat. Are you familiar with, tell me what

23:05

call fat is by chance? No. That

23:07

is a very thin membrane that is laced

23:09

with fat. It's much more delicious out of

23:11

a hog than any of the other animals,

23:14

but you can utilize it out of wild

23:16

animals, whatever it is. And traditionally what they

23:18

do is they would take leafy greens, you

23:20

take a kale or a chard and you

23:22

slow cook a tender, and then you mix

23:24

that into your raw meat. And then you

23:26

wrap that beautiful call flat around

23:28

it and then you griddle it or

23:30

grill it until that outside fat starts

23:32

rendering and moistening the fat as well.

23:34

And so you kind of have a

23:36

packet of moist outside beautiful sausage

23:39

patty in the middle there. I might

23:41

be drooling. You have me a chard. Just

23:44

checking in. Crepe in that is

23:46

if you harvest one off of a wild animal

23:48

and you're able and it's shot well enough that

23:50

you can preserve it, rinse it in water and

23:52

then keep it in salt water and keep it

23:54

refrigerated. Then all you have to do is wrap

23:56

your little burgers and invite your friends over and

23:59

crisp up the outside. that and you are

24:01

going to be a hero. I can't

24:03

wait for that day. Yeah, you're either.

24:05

Toby, does this feel like, like,

24:07

does this feel like actionable to you? Do

24:09

you feel like this is kind of giving

24:11

you what you need? Because, you know, I

24:13

want you to feel like you're starting out

24:16

from the best possible place with this meet.

24:18

It feels very good. I'm super

24:20

excited about this journey and I can't wait

24:22

to wow my friends with what I learned.

24:24

It's gonna take a while. Yeah. But I

24:27

think this is the direction I'd love to

24:29

go. Okay. And listen, like, while

24:31

you have Eli here, any other

24:33

questions, anything else that he can

24:36

kind of guide you towards in

24:38

terms of getting the most out

24:40

of this meet? Yeah. So my

24:42

other question is, I don't mind

24:44

gamey. I think it's fine. I

24:46

actually enjoy gamey flavor, but sometimes

24:49

when I'm cooking for other people,

24:51

they're not so excited about the

24:53

gamey flavor. Are there any spice

24:55

combinations or like vinegar, milk

24:58

or something to sort of take

25:00

that gamey flavor out or should

25:02

I just cook something else? No, I

25:04

think I think there's definitely ways around

25:07

it. The majority of the gamey flavor,

25:09

the more unique flavors follows in the

25:11

fat content of an animal. A good

25:13

trick in the Greek season a lot,

25:16

maybe in the Greek, in older land

25:18

is that we will actually blanch the

25:20

meat first, bring it to a simmer

25:22

that'll render off a lot of the

25:25

fat before we start braising it or

25:27

cooking it whatsoever. And then again, the

25:29

spicier, heavier flavors definitely will mask a

25:31

lot of flavors. I think back to my friend

25:33

that shot a mountain goat and he has my

25:36

same sense of he just he loves utilizing the

25:38

whole animal, but it was really challenging for if

25:40

he didn't grow up eating lamb and old goats

25:42

like I did. And, you know,

25:44

he ended up making a lot of

25:47

chili verde, really spicy curry, so on

25:49

and so forth. I'm sorry,

25:51

just to back up, Eli, that

25:53

was a chili verde from an

25:55

old goat. The

26:01

notion of blanching meat, I mean that

26:03

initial kind of like flush of like

26:05

pulling out the sort of impurities, the

26:07

old blood where like some of the

26:09

funkier flavors reside and then starting your

26:12

braise. I mean, and it feels counterintuitive,

26:14

right? That like you're going to bring

26:16

this mixture up, you know, to a

26:18

simmer and then effectively discard it. But

26:21

so much of like the work of

26:23

extracting flavor from that meat happens over

26:25

such a long period of time that

26:27

the stuff that you're getting in that

26:30

initial hole is just less

26:32

desirable. And I think, you

26:34

know, that's a great point Eli, like just

26:36

something as simple as that. Toby could be

26:38

your friend here. For sure. If

26:41

you don't like that flavor, you and I totally sound

26:43

like we're in the same camp. We love those new

26:45

ones. I wouldn't do that because I love the flavor.

26:47

But if I'm trying to cook for somebody in the

26:49

middle of the company, you know, that's going

26:51

to be a blanch first. You

26:55

sent Toby a copy of Eli's

26:57

cookbook, Olympia Provisions, and she

26:59

and her partner got down to the business

27:01

of sausage making. After

27:03

another break, we'll find out how the most sausage

27:06

tasted. Come

27:21

back to dinner SOS. For those keeping

27:23

score, when we last talked to Toby,

27:25

she had around 80 pounds of moose

27:27

meat left in her freezer. So

27:29

I had to know, where's the moose meter

27:31

at now? Well,

27:34

I would say we're around

27:36

30 pounds, but the way moose meat

27:38

works in Alaska and all game meat

27:40

and fish is if you have it

27:43

and you have a lot of it, you give it to friends who

27:45

need it. So you definitely give

27:47

it a whole lot of way and traded some

27:49

for a hell of it and that sort of

27:51

thing. Now, as

27:53

you might have guessed, the Alaskan interior

27:55

is a bit remote, so it

27:57

caused a couple of issues for Toby and

27:59

her partner. partner as they tried to make

28:02

their sausage and she left us a voice

28:04

memo all about it. Take a look. After

28:09

some typical problems of the Alaska

28:11

interior, we are embarking upon a

28:13

sausage-making adventure. Yesterday, we

28:15

got it all set up and had to

28:17

make an unexpected run to town, which where

28:19

we live takes all day. While

28:22

we were out, we checked the mail for Eli's

28:24

cookbook, but alas, more Alaska

28:26

problems. So,

28:29

an hour later, we are

28:31

ready to start making sausage. We

28:34

are using a bon appetit recipe

28:36

for spicy Italian sausage, substituting moose

28:39

and beef fat for pork shoulder.

28:44

So talk to me about how the

28:47

sausage-making process went. Did you feel like

28:49

you were able to incorporate any of

28:51

the advice that Eli was able to

28:53

walk us through in terms of best

28:55

practices with grinding meat, etc.? Absolutely.

28:58

So, for one thing, we definitely kept

29:00

all of the equipment cold, which was

29:03

easy because it was 10 below outside.

29:07

And then it was really nice to know

29:09

that the meat should be about 30 degrees

29:11

because I got excited

29:13

and I tried grinding it when it

29:15

was a little too cold and the grinder didn't like

29:17

it. And then when we

29:20

got it to exactly 30 degrees,

29:22

everything was wonderful and it bound

29:24

really well and just made a

29:26

perfect product. And then also definitely

29:28

with the information about the salt-to-meat

29:30

weight ratio and then also we

29:33

used 30% fat, which I

29:35

think when I had done the curvy sausage

29:37

in the past, I had not used enough

29:39

fat and I have a lot of

29:41

questions about that too. What

29:43

are some of your questions? This is

29:45

a great time. Let us in. Great.

29:48

So, Kyle was wondering, the recipe

29:50

said to season it after it

29:52

was ground and Kyle said, I

29:55

do it before we even make

29:57

the meat cold. So,

29:59

when the appropriate time to season the

30:01

meat? That's a loaded question. A

30:03

lot of people don't like to season the

30:06

meat before it goes into the grinder for

30:08

the fact that it could really dull your

30:10

blades. And so if you put in

30:12

like the big black pepper salt before it

30:15

has time to get into the meat, it

30:17

will really rub your blades duller quicker. However,

30:19

one school of thought is that it marinates

30:21

to the meat a little bit better and

30:23

it brings the temperature down. Salt will actually

30:25

bring temperature down and bring a little of

30:28

the moisture out of it and also help.

30:30

Here we always do it after. But yeah,

30:32

you know, I'm not saying you can't make

30:34

a perfect product by adding it before you

30:36

grind. And if you don't have a good

30:38

mixing step, it might actually be an advantage.

30:41

It is going to get a better mix of

30:43

the ingredients. Your salt and your spices will get

30:45

naturally mixed running through that blade. So you just

30:47

got to choose your poison on that way. That

30:50

makes sense. And Toby, it sounded like you saw

30:52

an instant difference in terms of the binding

30:54

action of doing the 30% fat.

30:57

I'm assuming you used pork fat, the back

30:59

fat, if I'm not mistaken, that Eli had

31:01

called out. Well, we tried to use pork

31:04

fat. We went to Fairbanks, which is a

31:06

long drive and got some really nice fresh

31:08

pork fat from the butcher. And then we

31:10

had a little emergency

31:12

and the pork fat came up to 53

31:15

degrees. So we ran to the local gun

31:18

and liquor store, which also sells pretty

31:20

quality meat. And they happened to have

31:22

some really nice beef fat. They didn't

31:24

have any pork fat. So we had

31:26

to go with the beef fat. I

31:28

think it probably would have tasted better

31:31

with the pork, but it came out

31:33

fine. What is the main difference between

31:35

beef fat and pork fat? Obviously, flavor

31:37

notwithstanding, like how are they going to

31:39

function differently in sausage making? Yeah,

31:41

flavor is huge, though. You don't want to

31:44

overlook that beef flavor has such a different,

31:46

it's way more distinct pork fat can kind

31:48

of get away with kind of being a

31:50

very neutral butter. So if you're adding pork

31:52

fat to wild meat, you're going to notice

31:54

the nuances of the elk and the caribou

31:57

and the deer more. If you add beef

31:59

fat to to it, it kind of leans

32:01

in the way like a hamburger does or

32:03

steak, and it kind of covers there. And

32:05

another one of the big ones is there's

32:07

a big difference when you're talking about beef

32:09

fat in the teeter and the actual melting

32:11

point of the fat. If you eat cold

32:13

fat, we all kind of know that hasn't

32:15

melted, it coats your tongue. You may have

32:17

noticed that beef salami, that's why we like

32:20

to drink a lot of panic wines when

32:22

you're eating steaks, getting that high beef

32:24

fat that's coated all over your mouth and you're using

32:26

the bitter in the acid to get off of your

32:28

tongue. So those are the two big things, flavor and

32:30

melting point. Toby,

32:32

I was just presuming that the sausage

32:35

was not put into a casing, but

32:37

is that accurate? I feel like I

32:39

just made that assumption. That's the accurate.

32:41

We had casings and it was hard

32:43

to rein ourselves in, but that was

32:46

Eli's suggestion was just to try and

32:48

master the bind and not get too

32:50

involved to make it easier and make

32:52

us want to do it some more.

32:55

But I was wondering, so

32:57

we felt like it was fairly greasy sausage

32:59

when we fried it up and we

33:01

were wondering if we had done 30%

33:05

would that be better in casings and

33:07

maybe should we reduce that if we're

33:09

not using casings or does that matter?

33:11

Is it because it's beef that it

33:14

was so greasy? It's probably a little

33:16

more dominant. You tasted

33:18

more of that grease coming out because it

33:20

was beefier flavor. It's more so the moisture

33:22

thing. If you put it in your mouth

33:24

and when you bit into it, it was

33:26

really moist. But if it's too greasy, definitely

33:28

reduce the fat level. It's all your own preference.

33:30

Now that you're getting the bind and you're getting the

33:33

texture, now you get to start having a lot more

33:35

fun. More black pepper, more fresh garlic, a little less

33:37

fat. That salt ratio is

33:39

inconsistent. That's where you're at. It's going

33:41

to taste pretty similar in casing, if not a

33:44

little bit more rich because it's actually going to

33:46

stay inside of that casing when you cook it.

33:48

Okay. Are you ready for another question? I

33:51

know that the salt to meet weight

33:53

ratio is a big deal, but mostly

33:55

I also want to know what the

33:58

best kind of salt to use is. to

34:00

the salt ratio is we know that

34:02

a 2.5% salt is the right amount

34:04

to take things to salty when they're

34:06

hot. That's just so it's seasoned

34:09

well. Now for the salt that I like

34:11

to use, I like to use fine

34:13

grain natural sea salt. If you start

34:15

using the kosher and the bigger grain,

34:17

it'll take longer to dilute and it'll

34:19

get into pockets in the sausage and

34:21

it might not even be milk. I

34:24

like the ones that dissolve quickly and

34:26

have all the minerals and wonderful flavor.

34:29

For salt preference, but I tend to do it. Well

34:31

listen, I mean, Toby, obviously

34:33

all of this knowledge exists on all

34:35

of these different levels. You

34:37

go from the most foundational of like,

34:40

you use fine grain sea salt. Already

34:42

just establishes a certain baseline of flavor.

34:44

All the things that you can do

34:47

to your meat before it goes into

34:49

the grinder, there's the grinding process itself.

34:51

Obviously the packaging, the storage, I mean,

34:54

there's just so many different aspects, but

34:56

sort of nailing some of those fundamental

34:58

things, like targeting a certain proportion of

35:01

fat, I hope have already kind of really

35:03

paid off for you. You

35:05

feel like you're set up to really make the

35:07

most of the meat that you're getting. Definitely. I

35:09

feel a lot better set up.

35:11

I feel like I have an understanding

35:13

and that I can now play with

35:15

things a little bit. Awesome. Is there

35:18

anything that you're excited to try in

35:20

the future? Is there anything your brain's

35:22

been kind of doodling around that if

35:24

given the time and opportunity you'd want

35:26

to do yourself? Definitely. There's two things.

35:28

So, Longanisa sausage is our favorite sausage.

35:30

So, it'd be great if we could

35:32

make it ourselves because it's not that

35:35

easy to find around here. And also,

35:37

I've been looking through the Olympia

35:39

Provisions cookbook and I

35:42

found the Revit Bellatine and

35:44

we have lots of snowshoe hairs around

35:47

here and they're delicious. And so,

35:49

we're probably going to do something with that.

35:51

So, I talked with a butcher in Fairbanks

35:54

and he said he could definitely get me

35:56

some of that lacy fat to wrap it

35:58

in. Oh my God. I'm pretty excited. about

36:00

that. That's amazing. A snowshoe rabbit

36:02

Valentin. Oh my god, I'm coming

36:04

over. We'll have sausages, we'll pack

36:06

wine. Come on over. If

36:14

you have a dinner emergency on your hands,

36:16

write to us at dinnersof.com or

36:20

leave us a voice message at 212-286-SOS-1. That's 212-286-7071. Who'd

36:28

love to feature your question on the show? You

36:31

can find some of the rescues

36:33

mentioned on today's episode in the

36:35

Epicurious app, brought to you by

36:37

Kaldene. Just search Epicurious in the

36:39

app store and download today. And

36:42

also check out Eli's book, Olympia

36:44

Provision, for more of your game

36:46

meat and sausage making needs. If

36:50

you enjoyed this episode, please give us a

36:52

rating and review on your podcast app

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of choice. And hit that follow

36:57

button so you never miss an episode. Thanks

37:00

for listening to Dinner SOS. I'm

37:02

your host, Chris Morocco. My

37:04

co-host this week is Eli Cairo

37:06

of Olympia Provision. Our producer is

37:08

Michelle O'Brien. Jordan Bell is our

37:11

executive producer. Peyton Hayes

37:13

is our associate producer. Cameron Fuse

37:15

is our assistant producer. Jake

37:17

Loomis is our studio engineer. Amar

37:20

Lal makes this episode. Next

37:23

week, Lizzie Airing is a favorite

37:25

from last year. Maya is a

37:27

confident, competent cook, but she's bored

37:29

of her rotation and wants to

37:31

expand her recipe-picking repertoire.

37:46

No, this is

37:48

it. This is everything, you know, everything

37:52

everywhere all at once. I

37:57

think I need to move to this neighborhood. It's

38:01

like Eli's three favorite things. Yeah,

38:03

liquor, meat. Just

38:05

like if they sold like compound bows, that would

38:07

be it. Yeah, that would

38:10

be it.