Season 03, Episode 01Co-Hosts: Nadine Vogel & Norma StanleyGuest: Nadine Vogel & Norma Stanley

Intro: [Music playing in background] Disabled Lives Matter... here we go!

Voiceover: To all our listeners, thank you for joining us and welcome to the Season 3 opening episode of the Disabled Lives Matter Podcast.  Let's welcome co-hosts Nadine Vogel and Norma Stanley!  Nadine Norma take it away.

Nadine Vogel: Okay, Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of Disabled Lives Matter. I'm Nadine Vogel one of your co-host joined by Norma Stanley. Hey Norma.

NORMA STANLEY: Hello. How you guys doing today?

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah. Good. Yeah. This, you know, we don't do this enough. But for our listeners, as you know, every so often, Norma and I just get on and do our own thing, and we're our own guests whenever we think there's a topic that we should talk about, right?

NORMA STANLEY:  Absolutely absolutely. And you know we're in toward the end of March, and Women's History Month is in March, and

NORMA STANLEY: there's so many great women that we could be talking about just in general, who do so many incredible, and, you know

NORMA STANLEY: vital things to contribute to society. But there are a couple of women that I was hoping we could talk about today who have contributed immense value, and have changed the lives of so many people as a result of their own lives.

NORMA STANLEY: and that's Miss Judy Heumann and Miss Lois Curtis.

Nadine Vogel: Well, let's start with Lois talk to us abou her.

NORMA STANLEY: Well, Lois Curtis, actually is a woman who.

NORMA STANLEY: was born with intellectual disabilities. I believe it was autism, but she was institutionalized for much of her life. She passed away last November at the age of 55,

NORMA STANLEY: and she didn't want to be institutionalized, and that's what they used to do to. You know people like that when you had a disability they didn't really try to figure out what was wrong. If you could possibly live in the community.

NORMA STANLEY: as you know, as an individual person, they just put you in an institution and

NORMA STANLEY: a lawyer, she and another woman who was going through the same thing.

NORMA STANLEY: You know they They basically went to the Supreme Court to the help of a a a lawyer Sue Jamieson.

NORMA STANLEY: and they basically sued for their independence. And it was it became it. It it passed, and it became known as the Olmsted decision.

NORMA STANLEY: and it to help people like Elaine and people like Lois to be able to live outside of institutions that have independent lives. It opened up the door for a lot of help

NORMA STANLEY: for family like my daughter, who they have, you know, community living services. Now, as a result of that Olmsted decision.

NORMA STANLEY: so people Don't necessarily have to be

NORMA STANLEY: kept in institutions. They could come out and live in group homes and live in the Independent, their own little homes. If they had the capability of doing so, and and Lois Curtis was a a major part of

NORMA STANLEY: part of making that happen. And so I wanted to kind of talk about her because she was also an artist.

NORMA STANLEY: You know. She also

NORMA STANLEY: created little individual fine art types of pieces that that became here in Atlanta she was. She came out of the Atlanta Georgia area.

NORMA STANLEY: and you know she was able to sell her arts, and and it became, you know, auctioning off of art almost a little bit like what the the the you know. One of the guests that we had on one of our previous segments. We're talking about the the gifts that are inherent

NORMA STANLEY: in people with visible and non-visible

NORMA STANLEY: disabilities. I mean they're just gifted in so many different areas, and and she was she was. The art was, was was really

NORMA STANLEY: the very unique and very, very good. She was very good at it. And so so yeah, Lois was somebody. She had a beautiful smile. She got to meet President Obama. 

Nadine Vogel:  Really!

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah. They They went up and met with him Miss Jamieson.

NORMA STANLEY: Miss Wilson, and Lois for some kind of special event that they had in twenties. I think it was 2016 before, you know, in transit, you know they

NORMA STANLEY: He left the office. But you know she was a She was a major contributor to the disability population, and and and because of the work that she did, and and and she didn't really understand. Lois didn't really understand how significant

NORMA STANLEY: her wanting to be living in the community was, and how.

NORMA STANLEY: by her pushing for that, and by Sue Jamieson, the lawyer

NORMA STANLEY: helping her to make that happen.

NORMA STANLEY: It helped change the lives of of millions of people.

Nadine Vogel: Isn't that amazing.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah. So I wanted to bring her up as well as of course. Excuse me. Excuse me. Everybody knows about Judy, Judy Heumann. Judith

NORMA STANLEY: I guess is her official name.  Judy Heumann passed away

NORMA STANLEY: the beginning of this month of March, and it was a surprise to everybody.

Nadine Vogel: It was, she was 75.

NORMA STANLEY: She was 75.

Nadine Vogel: And she seemed so young... right?

NORMA STANLEY:  Yes, exactly. But she, Judith Heumann, was known as the Mother of the Disability Rights Revolution.

Nadine Vogel: Yup.

NORMA STANLEY: and so she is somebody who, you know. I only met one time, but you know I knew about her through friends of mine who knew her. Well.

Nadine Vogel: right.

NORMA STANLEY: you know I don't know. How did you know her?

Nadine Vogel: Yeah. So I knew Judy. Actually, she spoke at one of my company's, Springboard, events. I think it was last year.

Nadine Vogel: that she spoke for us, and

Nadine Vogel: you know you just felt like you were in the presence of royalty. 

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: She. you know she was just so amazing. And you know it's funny because you talk about. You know the Mother of Disability Rights movement. So I don't know if that people actually know, but she was born.

Nadine Vogel: She was diagnosed with polio.

Nadine Vogel: when she was, I think, 18 months

Nadine Vogel: She spent 3 months in an iron lung

NORMA STANLEY: I did not know that.

Nadine Vogel: and then.

Nadine Vogel: But even with all of that, she said that I remember saying that she just you know she's to her. She was normal.

Nadine Vogel: right, she was typical.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: she was typical.

Nadine Vogel: And then it was until she was about 8 years old. A child came up to her and asked her if she was sick. and she's just like

Nadine Vogel: no. And then what she realized is when she went to school that one child was many.

Nadine Vogel: Everybody just assumed she was sick.

Nadine Vogel: and it was very she. I remember saying it was like so isolating. You know the kids wouldn't play with her things things like that.

Nadine Vogel: But her mom and we were talking about, you know, special needs parents, right. Protected her a lot.

NORMA STANLEY:  Moms.

Nadine Vogel: And she said to me: I remember, she said, that I said one day her mom just went

Nadine Vogel: storming into school

Nadine Vogel: because she got her kindergarten photo back.

Nadine Vogel: and the wheelchair was covered in a blanket.

NORMA STANLEY: Wow.

Nadine Vogel: and a gray blanket to kind of match the background, so that the wheelchair would not be seen in the photo.

Nadine Vogel: so the mom, you know her mom was like running in, and I was like this will never

Nadine Vogel: ever happen again. But then, she said. You know, because of

Nadine Vogel: these experiences that she had in school, it really made her want to become a teacher.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And in those days and to become a New York City school teacher, she she said. You have written tests and oral tests and a medical test.

Nadine Vogel: I don't think they do that quite the same way anymore.

Nadine Vogel: But she said that the doctor, just

Nadine Vogel: asked such invasive questions she couldn't even imagine someone else without a disability being asked the same kinds of questions.

Nadine Vogel: and and the results of that was that she didn't qualify. So she decided to sue them.

Nadine Vogel: and that was kind of the the the start of of

Nadine Vogel: protecting the rights of people with disabilities. I don't know if people realized in the seventies she led the sit-in in San Francisco

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: in the Government building. She shut down traffic completely.

NORMA STANLEY:  She was no joke, I mean she did not play.

Nadine Vogel: and that and those sit-ins turned into

Nadine Vogel: when Nixon signed what was the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. The direct result of that and those protests really revolved around one part of the rehabilitation so section 504.

Nadine Vogel: That any organization that gets, you know, Federal funds can't exclude people with disabilities. 

NORMA STANLEY: Right? 

Nadine Vogel: So those became known as the 504 sit-ins.

Nadine Vogel: It's so interesting the history, and here is what I I love this trivia. I remember that she said that

Nadine Vogel: that the 504 sit-ins still today.

Nadine Vogel: are recognized as the longest Federal sit in and take over of a Federal building.

NORMA STANLEY: Wow!

Nadine Vogel: And they did, and I don't know anyone who may be listening has ever seen the Netflix documentary. Crip Camp. But that was a lot of her

NORMA STANLEY: as a young counselor she was in that film, and she they talked about.

NORMA STANLEY: You know, the people who in that film were were counselors with actual teenagers going to camp, the special Camp Jened that they had up in upstate New York.

NORMA STANLEY: and and that's a powerful documentary showing.

NORMA STANLEY: You know that people with disabilities, teenagers with disabilities just like any other teenager. They want to, You know they want to do things teenagers do, and that's what they showed in that

NORMA STANLEY: in that video, and and how it turned into that revolution, and how you know with the disability population and and the people who are part of that film.

NORMA STANLEY: We're integral parts of that whole movement that started with the Judy, and and that.

Nadine Vogel: absolutely. And I don't know if you remember I I can't remember now how long ago, but it wasn't too Long ago we interviewed someone on this show

Nadine Vogel: who was a counselor with her.

NORMA STANLEY: Lionel, Lionel Woodyard. Yes, yes.

Nadine Vogel:  And I remember when I told Judy.  You know who we just interviewed, that was really funny, but

Nadine Vogel: you know. Crip Camp.

Nadine Vogel: is to me, I think the the most the important thing that came out of that movie was to show that

Nadine Vogel: kids with disabilities, teams with disabilities are still kids in teams.

NORMA STANLEY: Yup.

Nadine Vogel: Right? That we shouldn't lead They shouldn't lead with the disability. The disability is, in addition to

Nadine Vogel: it's not who they are as people. We still need to give our kids the kid experience.

NORMA STANLEY: absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: right. It's it's still. It's still part of life, and you know, and and that's really

Nadine Vogel: why she then, pushed so hard for civil rights protection for the A-D-A.

NORMA STANLEY: Yup.

Nadine Vogel: because

Nadine Vogel: you know it Wasn't just about Federal buildings. It She wanted it

Nadine Vogel: across the

NORMA STANLEY: Throughout.

Nadine Vogel: every aspect of life. And so, I remember her saying that, in 1990

Nadine Vogel: when when Bush signed the A-D-A that was, you know, more than a decade later. after they'd done the sit-ins. And she just said, You know she was going to push and she wasn't accepting anything less, and what's really interesting is, I had the opportunity to be at the White House

Nadine Vogel: for the twentieth anniversary, and I think it's the twentieth anniversary of the A-D-A, and I had my older daughter with me, who at the time I think, was 19,

Nadine Vogel: 19, 21. It was right around that age, and and so she was sitting there listening

Nadine Vogel: to the history of the A-D-A, and I remember her saying. What do you mean? This wasn't here before

Nadine Vogel: like like to her? She couldn't imagine life without it, right? It was like. 

NORMA STANLEY: She couldn't imagine. Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And then she was. Well, what do kids like me do? What it. How did people work? like it was so just impossible to imagine that it didn't exist 

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly. 

Nadine Vogel: And and so again, you know just to show

Nadine Vogel: in little ways, in big ways, how Judy's life

Nadine Vogel: had such impact.

NORMA STANLEY: Yup.

Nadine Vogel: on so many people, right? and and still does. 

NORMA STANLEY: And still does.  Yeah. And the thing is that she was just so. You know she was so humble about it, you know she was really, even though she had impacted so many people.

NORMA STANLEY: You know the world, you know people with disabilities around the world.

NORMA STANLEY: She was always so, you know. Matter of fact, it's like this should have happened many years ago. Why is you know? Why are we still even talking about this? you know and she was like that up until the end I was like this.

Nadine Vogel: Well, it is interesting, too, because at Springboard, we always talk about mainstream people with disabilities, right? They talk about that in the school system mainsteaming.

Nadine Vogel: and by her doing that movie

Nadine Vogel: by, you know, she was interviewed by Trevor Noah.

NORMA STANLEY: Oh absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: She was interviewed on all these incredible programs. I think that

Nadine Vogel: people with disabilities are often invisible to the main straight main stage.

Nadine Vogel: She brought the visibility and brought it in the right way.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right? Not that we're a cause to supportm, or Oh poor Judy, but really brings it to the forefront like hey.

NORMA STANLEY: that's right, that whole You know nothing about us.

Nadine Vogel: without us. Right.

NORMA STANLEY:  She made sure that that happened, and made sure that people understood why

NORMA STANLEY: that was such a a critical

NORMA STANLEY: statement before the disability population and the community as a whole.

NORMA STANLEY: and it's true, you know Don't make decisions without me or my daughter, or you know you don't know who you don't know enough about me as an individual about my daughter as an individual or about the community. And you know we're seeing a lot of that as women

NORMA STANLEY: in our community in the political scene now, or people just making decisions that they'll take into account a lot of the people who, actually being impacted by these decisions.

Nadine Vogel: absolutely. I I couldn't agree more. You know it's it's interesting. We. So one of my other companies called the WIP Group, Women Influence, Power.

Nadine Vogel: is about women's empowerment, and we've been doing a lot of

Nadine Vogel: programming around menopause.

NORMA STANLEY: hmm.

Nadine Vogel: And I've been hearing more and more and more from women saying.

Nadine Vogel: You get to a certain age and you feel you're like you're invisible again.

Nadine Vogel: And I was having this conversation with you the other day, and I said, yeah, it's probably similar to, although different than people with disabilities. Who you know. Hello! I'm here. Why, Aren't, you, you know, engaging me and talking with me.

Nadine Vogel: And we were talking about it in the beauty industry in particular.

Nadine Vogel: where where that happens, you know. And so you know it's. It's a shame because I would. I would love to bring Judy into that conversation.

NORMA STANLEY: oh sure.

Nadine Vogel: right as well. I think that she could make some major impact. I don't know if people know she she has. She's written a children's book. She's written a few books, but in most recent is her memoir.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes, Being Heumann

Nadine Vogel: Being Heumann, and you know, when I I remember, I asked her, you know what's the elevator pitch about the book, and she said, it's full of stories of triumph, love and total bad-ass'ery.

Yes. And that's Judy.

Nadine Vogel:  I didn't even know that was a word. Okay.

NORMA STANLEY: It was like Judy to make up things like that, even if it wasn't a word she's gonna make sure it was going to become one. Become a word.

Nadine Vogel: Well in her focus, she said that you know, We have to believe in community right? You know the the guests that we had on our last show is talking about the people when she was traveling. So you have to believe in community.

Nadine Vogel: But she said that she has to. We have to remember that it's about democracy

Nadine Vogel: to actually deliver equality and justice. 

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: Right? So, yes, it has to be the people but it. And when she said that what she meant by it was. you know, if you still today, even with A-D-A and everything else you can't get into a building.

Nadine Vogel: You're discriminated against, she said. You have to sue because if you don't and you just let it go. What about the next person.

NORMA STANLEY: Yep.

Nadine Vogel: and the next person after that. right? So it really, you know, we have to show that the A-D-A. It's not just there to say, oh, you know you actually have the A-D-A, but rather how it gets enforced.

NORMA STANLEY: absolutely. a friend of mine who actually was also on our show last year, I believe. But she went through a situation, and I don't know if it, if you know.

NORMA STANLEY: I don't know if she sued. But she went out of town she was traveling, and she when she came back she's a wheelchair user also. And when she came back somebody had

NORMA STANLEY: parked on

NORMA STANLEY: the space that you're not supposed to park

Nadine Vogel: on, so that she and so she couldn't get into her van. She couldn't get her wheelchair

NORMA STANLEY: into the van that she can go home. She was stuck at the airport for like 3 or 4 hours.

NORMA STANLEY: They were trying to find the person her husband finally had to come and get her. They actually had to to the car that had parked illegally in that spot

NORMA STANLEY: because he had parked legally. You know the part. The part where they have the stripes there for a reason. Somebody parked there at the airport  and it was right next to her van, and she

NORMA STANLEY: couldn't get into her van when she got back from her travel. And so you know, and that's something that that particular airport, it's the Atlanta airport, has to address, because they

NORMA STANLEY: they allowed that to happen, and didn't really so. She's trying to deal with all of that. So it's just like

NORMA STANLEY: you know, like you say you have to pursue it because it could happen to somebody else again and again and again.

Nadine Vogel: And I think we have to remember that

Nadine Vogel: you know, when we talk about the rights of the disabled, whether it's to work, it's to live in their own home, whatever it is. This is just in my opinion.

Nadine Vogel: basic civil rights.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: You, these these shouldn't be special programs special this special that. It should be basic civil rights.

Nadine Vogel: And.

Nadine Vogel: I, you know, think of all of the civil rights movements. We had, right in the country, you know, starting with, you know, African Americans. And then you know women's movements all these different things. What I don't get is don't we learn from history?

Nadine Vogel: Don't we learn, Why do we have to recreate the wheel every time?

NORMA STANLEY: You're right. Yeah. And and again I think again, it goes back to the people the hearts of the people, basic civil rights, basic human rights.

NORMA STANLEY: And there's too many people, in my opinion, who are

NORMA STANLEY: bullies and want to take over the lives of other people as if they have that right.

NORMA STANLEY: and that to me is unconscionable.

NORMA STANLEY: and I don't understand how they feel. They have it in in them. I don't understand that whole process, you know, and, like you say, things are where it should be going forward or going backwards. In many, many areas for women, for people of color. For you know

NORMA STANLEY: the the Gay and Lesbian community so many different things. And and so the disability community, too, because a lot of the some of the same laws and some of these same people are not taking into account

NORMA STANLEY: people with disabilities. And this community that is so huge. and the network of people that are, you know, that are emotionally attached to their community. They're not looking at any of that. They're just looking at

NORMA STANLEY: power and money exactly, and and so those that Aren't.

Nadine Vogel: you know you have many people that want to do the right thing right and and want to do good, and they have great intentions that I was just having a conversation with a couple of women with disabilities, and we were talking about intention versus impact.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: Right? And there's a lot of really good intentions out there. Well intentioned people.

Nadine Vogel: But if there's no impact on the other end.

Nadine Vogel: it just it gets. It gets to be a lonely, you know, a lonely road you're going down, and it gets frustrating because you don't what what the outcome?

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: What's the outcome. And so we have to.

Nadine Vogel: I think we have to start first, and I know Judy, you know. Was it from believer in this start first. With

Nadine Vogel: What is it you want to see? What what do you need, and want that outcome to look like, and then let's work backwards, and figure out within the system we're in. How do we make that happen?

Nadine Vogel: You know it's interesting. We I had posted something. I think it was recently, and I was talking about D-E-I.

Nadine Vogel: Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. and that maybe we need to look D-E-I a little more like we do E-S and G,

Nadine Vogel: which is, you know, Environment, Social Governance, and and companies have. E-S-G You know, departments. And.

Nadine Vogel: In each of those 3 categories you have to very much have measurable goals impact.

Nadine Vogel: you know sustainability. We have to know what we've done. 

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: How do we more so? I don't want more for an aligned D-E-I

Nadine Vogel: better with E-S-G so that we look at what the end result is the impact

Nadine Vogel: instead of Well, yeah, we, you know we we've been working on hiring people with disabilities. Well, how's that going for you? you know, like we have to really start with the other side and and governance

Nadine Vogel: when you have governance involved, it makes people accountable.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And I find when it comes to issues of disability in particular. And i'm sure there's other strands of diversity that this comes into

Nadine Vogel: It's find. You don't always hold people's feet to the fire

Nadine Vogel: the way we do in other areas of organization. I don't know if you feel the same. But

NORMA STANLEY: yeah, well, I mean for companies that for sure that that you know having a way to measure the successes of of the efforts that you've been putting in place, is it's important. and that you said that that's something that should be built into whatever the programs

NORMA STANLEY: that are developed.

NORMA STANLEY: That's just be a part of it. because, you know, companies are all about the bottom line, and how is it benefiting them? In the long-run that's important.

Nadine Vogel: Right? But the companies have to remember that.

Nadine Vogel: Let's let's talk about a a consumer company. Let's say that. they are marketing to consumers.

Nadine Vogel: Well. a very large percentage of those consumers are either people with disabilities

Nadine Vogel: Or people like us caring for people with disabilities, right?

Nadine Vogel: So if they're working so hard to get to that bottom line.

Nadine Vogel: why are we working hard to attract that aspect of our community.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: They have dollars to spend. you know. So i'm gonna go back as I. I have a lot of experience working with the

Nadine Vogel: beauty industry in this in this space, and

Nadine Vogel: you know.

Nadine Vogel: holding events in stores for women with disabilities and moms who have daughters with disabilities, and and and realizing that, see they have the same dollar to spend as anybody else.

NORMA STANLEY: and spend a lot of it.

Nadine Vogel: exactly. But the assumption is unfortunately

Nadine Vogel: disabled. Woman, probably not dating, not married, not, you know, asexual, A everything.

NORMA STANLEY: That's not true at all.

Nadine Vogel:  Therefore, does not need the same products or well, if they're buying products, they're doing it online because they don't want to be seen, and like really?

NORMA STANLEY: not true. And again. are they asking the actual people?

Nadine Vogel: right? 

NORMA STANLEY: They're not. They're just making the assumptions.

Nadine Vogel: I mean.

NORMA STANLEY: You know my daughter's a fashionista. 

Nadine Vogel:  I know that.

NORMA STANLEY: I know. She, you know, she takes after me. But you know I want to make sure she looks good all the time. Everywhere she goes.

NORMA STANLEY: And yes, she wears the best of everything, and she loves perfume and and and make up and all those things she's at she's 34 years old. Why, wouldn't she. You know.

Nadine Vogel: Exactly. But to think about How many times have you gone into a department store or retail store, and you want to have a you know some makeup. a makeup application.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: They always want you to climb up on those high chairs.

NORMA STANLEY: Yup, and they can't do it. I can barely do it.

Nadine Vogel: I'm 5 feet on a good hair day. Right? 

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly. 

Nadine Vogel: It takes a lot for me to get on one of those chairs. So the assumption again is well, if someone comes in on a wheelchair, then they would just be sitting in the wheelchair. Okay, that's true.

Nadine Vogel: But what about someone with fiscal disabilities, or of short stature

Nadine Vogel: that we don't have wheelchair to sit in. We can't get up on that chair. What are you doing for me?

Nadine Vogel: How you helping me there, babe?

NORMA STANLEY: Right?

Nadine Vogel: Right? So it's it's just interesting. 

NORMA STANLEY: It's it's not asking the right questions. There's the the the ageism situation. There's the ableismm situation.

Nadine Vogel: all those isms.

NORMA STANLEY: they're not asking right questions of the right people.

Nadine Vogel: right? Right? So I think I think, as women.

Nadine Vogel: and in Women's History month, I think that one of our objectives should be. We gotta get rid of some of these isms.  

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: At least the ones that impact us right because they are a lot. I mean, if you think about every ism out there, I think, does impact us in some way shape or form.

NORMA STANLEY: in some way. Yes.

Nadine Vogel: so for our listeners out there, whether you're a man, you're a woman

Nadine Vogel: you are. You you identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual transgender. Not binary. However. this is something we really want you to pay attention to.

Nadine Vogel: and the ism, and obviously, for purposes of this show we're talking about Ableism.

Nadine Vogel: But I think you all know that.

Nadine Vogel: as Norma said, it is a lot of other isms, and we intersect.

Nadine Vogel: We intersect. You know we're not. None of us are one thing right?

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: and so we have to think about those intersections and say, how can we help each other.

Nadine Vogel: Because it's like you said before, Norma, it's about the people.

NORMA STANLEY: you start with the people.

Nadine Vogel: and that's what Diabled Lives Matter is about right? This podcast is about the people and the people that matter.

Nadine Vogel: No, I can't believe we are at a time. Every time you and I talk I feel like we talk for 5 min, and it's like.

NORMA STANLEY: I know I know.

Nadine Vogel: but i'm so glad that you suggested we do this.  

NORMA STANLEY: Well, I'm glad we had a chance to do it, too, because I mean, you know.

NORMA STANLEY: I think if I do say so my myself. I think you and I are pretty cool people, and you know, as as I try to make a difference in our own individual ways, in our own little corners of the world. And there's so many people doing the same thing that we're hoping to bring

NORMA STANLEY: some visibility to through Disabled Lives Matter. So i'm excited to be a part of this

NORMA STANLEY: initiative in this movement, and looking forward to what's coming in the future.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely. So to all our listeners, thank you once again for joining Norma and myself on Disabled Lives Matter. As Norma said, we are more than a podcast. We are a movement, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Bye, everybody

NORMA STANLEY: be blessed.

Closing comment:  [Music playing in background.] Thank you for listening to this week's episode of disabled lives matter. We look forward to seeing you next Thursday.  Have a great week!

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