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Welcome back

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to season two of the Distilling Craft podcast. You're listening to episode (7): "Judge Me... If You Want To".

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Distilling Craft is brought to you by Dalkita, a group of architects and engineers who specialize in designing craft distilleries across the US. More information is available at our website www. dalkita.com

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This is Colleen Moore from Dalkita, your

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host for episode (7) of Distilling

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Craft's Second Season. Before

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we jump into today's show, spoiler

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alert, the American Craft Spirits Association

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has had to postpone their annual trade

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show and gathering in Portland, Oregon.

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It was originally scheduled for the end of

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March, 2020 and in light of the recent

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pandemic status of the Coronavirus,

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the State of Oregon made the decision

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to ban all gatherings larger than

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250 people until mid-April, which from my

1:01

perspective was 100% the

1:04

correct call, but it is still a bummer.

1:07

I am sure, you a

1:09

re aware events and public gatherings across

1:11

the world are being canceled to help

1:13

slow the progression of the Novel Coronavirus.

1:16

ACSA is working towards

1:18

rescheduling their event for later this year

1:21

and I will keep you updated as that

1:23

situation resolves in a future episode.

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With that being said, all the information

1:28

on today's show will be evergreen

1:30

and last until that happens.

1:32

And with that let's get on with today's

1:35

action-packed show. We

1:37

are going to talk about beer,

1:39

specifically, the most amazing beers

1:42

to drink, fresh from the tap in a local

1:44

brewery in Portland, Oregon with

1:46

Andre Meunier. Later

1:48

in the show, we're going to talk with Maggie Campbell

1:51

from Privateer Rum in Ipswich, Massachusetts

1:53

about the rum business and the

1:56

ACSA Spirits Judging program,

1:58

which brings us to this episode's...

2:01

"SAFETY SOAPBOX". It

2:17

is great that public and quasi

2:19

public spaces like airports and

2:21

the Oregon convention center in Portland

2:24

or the Hyatt hotel in new Orleans

2:26

are taking proactive measures to disinfect,

2:28

commonly touched items and spaces.

2:30

Here is a quick

2:32

list of seven things you can do

2:34

in your business to help minimize the spread

2:37

of germs and viruses in general

2:39

to keep yourself, your coworkers

2:41

and your patrons in good health. Tip (1): Wash

2:46

your hands properly with soap and water at

2:49

least 20 seconds. You can sing

2:51

the ABCs, or repeat

3:09

Fleetwood Mac's chorus to Landslide

3:12

(two times), or perhaps the

3:14

chorus of My Sharona, but

3:16

swap it out with "My

3:18

Corona". Smash Mouth's

3:20

All-Star fits the bill here, too

3:22

. No judgments! Not in this

3:25

part of the episode anyways. Tip

3:27

(2): If frequent hand

3:29

washing is less feasible, provide

3:31

alcohol based hand sanitizer

3:33

as a backup. If no hand

3:36

sanitizer is available in stores

3:38

near you, most likely you're

3:40

a distillery and there are recipes

3:42

online for how you can make

3:44

your own. Tip (3): Make

3:47

sure you have ample supplies of

3:49

soap, sanitizer, tissues

3:51

and no touch trash cans available

3:54

and encourage their use. Tip

3:56

(4): If you must

3:58

cough or sneeze, cover your mouth

4:00

and nose -- ideally with a tissue

4:03

which you dispose of -- and then wash your

4:05

hands. In a pinch, you can use

4:07

your elbow to contain the surprise

4:09

germ grenade. Tip (5): In

4:12

public spaces, like a tasting

4:14

room or even in an office environment, increase

4:17

wipe downs of commonly touched items

4:20

like counter tops, chair backs, condiment,

4:22

dispensers, door handles using

4:24

a sanitizing spray and clean

4:26

towels. Tip (6): Keep

4:29

your distance from obviously sick

4:31

people. If a coworker becomes

4:33

ill at work, separate them from others

4:36

and send them home. People with

4:38

the flu are most contagious the

4:40

first three days after symptoms

4:42

first occur. If you are sick,

4:45

stay home at least until you've

4:47

been fever free for 24

4:49

hours and that is without the

4:51

use of fever reducing medications.

4:54

My last tip, tip (7): In

4:57

a serving atmosphere, double check

5:00

that your glassware and utensil sanitation

5:02

procedures are up to snuff. Clean

5:05

hot water and soap really do

5:07

go a long way to keeping everyone

5:09

free of several types of germs,

5:12

including influenza, strep,

5:14

and this new novel Corona virus

5:17

. Up

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next, we have a few minutes with Andre

5:22

Meunier, who was tasked with the

5:24

enviable position of

5:26

visiting every single brewery in Portland

5:28

and sampling their wares. It took him

5:30

almost a year to complete and he has

5:33

written an Epic archive (plus

5:35

it's internet searchable) of

5:37

stories on all of the breweries and

5:39

brewers in PDX for

5:41

the Oregonian and Oregon Live.

5:44

We reached out to a few Good Guy Distillers

5:46

to find out what they are looking for

5:49

in a beer, and then went to Andre,

5:51

our PDX Beer Sherpa, to cross

5:53

reference the absolute best bets for

5:55

breweries and brewpub, that matched

5:58

the types and styles of beers distillers

6:00

want to drink for our Portland

6:02

must sip list. Of

6:04

course, we will link all of the breweries

6:07

on our show notes page. So

6:09

let's take a listen. So

6:11

Andre Meunier with us from

6:14

the Oregonian.

6:15

Yes, the Oregonian and our website is

6:17

Oregon live, we link that

6:19

together and say the Oregonian Oregon live.

6:21

Andre has written an Epic

6:24

amount on beer and the beer

6:26

scene in Portland.

6:28

Absolutely. In that

6:30

vein, I wrote 50

6:33

brewery profiles in 2019,

6:36

and there were about a thousand words each, so I

6:39

wrote basically 50,000 word

6:41

book about the breweries in Portland.

6:44

And that's where I actually started.

6:48

I think you went to all of them and then you did,

6:50

here's the top half of the breweries.

6:55

And I was like, this guy

6:57

knows a lot about breweries and he'd be

6:59

perfect, let's see if he'll come on the

7:01

podcast. So, this is how we got

7:03

here. That is the road so far,

7:05

if you will.

7:06

And here we are.

7:07

I did throw a question out

7:09

to our Facebook audience or

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our connections on Facebook rather about

7:14

what types of beers they're drinking,

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so I want to get your

7:18

thoughts on those.

7:21

Some of the answers that we got,

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I'm just gonna run through these really quickly.

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American lager.

7:30

Clean ass lager. Beers that are balanced. Malt

7:32

Forward that don't fatigue the palette.

7:35

German Czech and pilsners.

7:37

Kölsch Blondes . Beer that is fruity. Beer that is

7:40

not fruity. Pills and Kölsch . Steam

7:43

beers. Dork-Munders. All beers.

7:45

Hip Hazy Bro beers and

7:47

Hard Seltzers even though I don't like them, but

7:49

they drive the market.

7:52

Source and status. Any beer that

7:54

is well executed." And someone

7:57

mentioned, vertical tastings and different

7:59

vintages of beers. And I think he's angling

8:01

for a specific brewery there in Portland

8:04

that does that, and they want to you

8:06

to warn them of any

8:11

diacetyl bombs. Literally, no

8:13

one said IPA, but that is what

8:15

my crew once they

8:17

have when they go there. So

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give us your thoughts.

8:21

We got all of those

8:24

and in

8:27

spades. The occasional

8:30

diacetyl bomb. But , generally in Portland, you're not going

8:34

to get too many of those. Let me just kind

8:36

of start at the top.

8:39

I mean, my brewery of the year, this

8:42

year was a brewery

8:45

called Ruse Brewing . It's in Southeast

8:47

Portland, in the Brooklyn neighborhood. That isn't necessarily to say

8:49

it's the best brewery in Portland, but it's

8:52

the one that made the biggest splash

8:54

in the past year. That's

8:56

how we judge our brewery of

8:58

the year. It's a place

9:01

that started out focusing mostly on Hazy's , when

9:03

they were really in the biggest thing to

9:06

come around. But they also made a really

9:08

beautiful West Coast clean, bright

9:11

IPS as well. And then they did

9:13

farmhouses, so they started out kind of hazy and says

9:15

on focused. But over the past year,

9:18

they really dialed in what they're doing

9:20

and they're doing across styles , just

9:23

many beers, and they're all just beautiful

9:25

beers. And it's two guys,

9:29

from the mid, one from the Midwest, one's from

9:31

the East coast. They came out and they worked

9:33

at some of the top breweries in Portland

9:36

and that dialed in their craft. Now,

9:39

they're just killing it. So, that's

9:41

Ruse Brewing.

9:42

Solid choice.

9:43

You've probably maybe

9:47

heard of Breakside Brewing.

9:50

When I did my top 20 list, Breakside

9:53

is my number one brewery in

9:56

Portland. It's for a number of reasons.

9:58

Primarily being they make

10:00

some of the best beer in Portland, if not the

10:02

best. They have been

10:05

a juggernaut at the great American beer

10:07

festival perennially just year in

10:09

and year out. They came home with

10:11

three metals this year

10:13

, and that's not unusual. They've been doing this

10:16

since they won their first gold

10:19

in 2014. For Breakside IPA

10:22

, they won the American IPA at the great American

10:25

beer festival. It was a

10:28

huge eyeopener for this town, because they're only

10:31

three years old. They're a young upstart at

10:34

that point still and nobody really knew what to expect

10:36

out of them. And since then, they've

10:38

just gone gangbusters. They've got an incredible

10:40

barrel aging program, where they just do anything you

10:43

can think of--

10:45

Imperial stout, barrel aged

10:47

sours, fruited, Barlage fruited,

10:50

non barrel aged fruited. They cover the

10:53

spectrum. They also do really lovely lagers, the Pilsner,

10:57

Butte is just lovely. So that's

10:59

Breakside brewing. You will always

11:01

hear about them. Ben Edmunds is their

11:03

brewmaster and he just really knows his stuff.

11:07

My number two is a brewery, that

11:09

you have probably never heard of right

11:11

along with most

11:14

Portlanders. It's a small little brewery in

11:16

the basement of a commercial building, that

11:18

most people are like, who is this? And

11:21

it's a brewery called Upright Brewing. It's

11:24

run by a guy named Alex

11:26

Ganum. And down there

11:29

in his layer, he

11:31

makes mixed culture and a farmhouse style

11:34

beers. He used to only make one IPA. He is

11:36

now making more because it's just the landscape we're in.

11:38

If you're a small brewery and you're

11:41

too niche, you may struggle.

11:43

So, he is now making really

11:46

clean, great IPS as well. But

11:48

his specialty is mixed culture and farmhouse.

11:51

And, you go down into Upright Brewing and you

11:54

feel like you're

11:57

walking into some little old village

11:59

brewpub, or tasting room in

12:02

Europe somewhere. In Belgium, it's just

12:05

this dank, dark gray space filled with

12:07

barrels and the taproom is right there inside the

12:09

brewery. If you're in Portland and you want

12:11

a really unique experience, head over that

12:14

Upright Brewing. Now,

12:16

we move on to your friends who

12:19

really want their

12:21

crisp and clean lagers. Wayfinder

12:24

Beer opened three years ago.

12:26

I don't know how much you would know

12:28

about the Oregon beer scene, but

12:31

Hood River is a magnet for

12:33

breweries as well, along

12:36

with Bend in Portland. In Hood River,

12:38

brewery called Double Mmountain. A

12:41

guy named Charlie Devereux opened it

12:42

years ago. He and

12:45

a couple of restaurant tours opened

12:48

up Wayfinder Beer here in

12:50

Portland three years ago. They

12:52

make probably the best German style and non-German

12:55

style lagers in the city , which is really saying something,

12:57

because we probably have six or

13:00

seven German style lager-focused

13:02

breweries just here in Portland. But

13:04

they are incredible. They have a

13:06

beer called Funeral Bock. That

13:08

was one of my top five beers of the year

13:11

last year. They're already incredibly

13:13

heralded as the place to go. And it's an

13:15

incredible group of experience too. They have really good

13:17

food because he did it with restaurant tours.

13:20

If you're here and it's sunny, they have one of the best

13:22

outdoor decks in the city to

13:24

go hang out. At we a Wayfinder

13:26

Beer, that's where you want to go.

13:28

Those are four really solid

13:30

choices that we can take

13:32

a look at while we're there because, we

13:34

are only there for a few days, at

13:37

the end of the month. That's

13:39

like a different brewery every night, that's wonderful.

13:42

I'll just tick off a couple

13:44

other ones you could hit. My number four

13:46

was Von Ebert Brewing, IPA is

13:49

i s in front and mixed culture,

13:52

Culmination Brewing incredible beers across

13:55

different styles, and

13:57

Little Beast and other farmhouse brewery. So keep

14:00

those in mind.

14:01

Those are awesome choices.

14:03

Thank you so much for giving us the inside

14:05

scoop on the best Portland

14:08

breweries for distillers to visit.

14:11

The Distilling Craft podcast is brought

14:14

to in part by our great sponsors "Fermentis". The

14:17

obvious choice for beverage fermentation. Providing

14:19

the craft spirits industry worldwide with

14:22

the best fermentation needs for more than

14:24

100 years. Contact our sales

14:26

team to help make your choice on yeast

14:28

and products for distilling your next great spirit.

14:31

For more information, or to

14:33

find a distributor visit www.fermentis.com.

14:43

Our guest today is a walking embodiment

14:46

of the philosopher distiller and

14:48

I have the distinct pleasure of welcoming

14:50

Maggie Campbell, the president and master

14:52

distiller of Privateer Rum in

14:54

Ipswich, Massachusetts to the Distilling

14:56

Craft podcast. Welcome.

14:59

Thanks for having me.

15:00

Well, let's talk a little bit about your

15:03

origin story. You were

15:05

a university of Colorado graduate, where

15:07

you majored in

15:11

philosophy. You worked in a wine

15:13

shop specializing in Port. You've

15:15

gotten a diploma in "Craft Distillation

15:18

And Technologies" from the "Siebel Institute

15:20

in Chicago". You've been an

15:23

assistant distiller at an American

15:25

Brandy Powerhouse, Germane

15:27

Raw Beer in California.

15:29

you're a fierce advocate for sensory

15:32

training through the

15:35

WSET program. You are also the

15:37

American Craft Spirits Association board

15:40

of directors where you're serving as their vice

15:42

president. Additionally, on top of all of that stuff,

15:44

you travel a good amount to

15:46

industry events across the globe.

15:48

But all of that traces back to a family trip

15:51

from Scotland where many

15:53

articles about you

15:55

are profiles on you refer back to

15:58

your family getting stuck in

16:00

Oban and taking a tour of a distillery.

16:02

Now, I want to know more about the getting

16:05

stuck part because that sounds like a

16:07

trip my family would be involved in.

16:09

Also, a bit more about the distillery

16:12

tour that changed the destiny of the American

16:14

Craft Spirits movement.

16:15

Thank you.

16:16

Tell me a little bit more about all of

16:18

those things.

16:19

It was actually a

16:22

trip with a friend to go visit

16:24

some family sites

16:26

and, we had caught a bus

16:29

over to open, and then we're

16:31

waiting for our Ferry - Tobermory and

16:35

we just missed one. So we were waiting for

16:37

a little bit and I

16:39

asked a woman on the street, that we

16:42

ended up talking to, "What should I do?" And she said,

16:44

"You've got to go see

16:47

the distillery". I just popped

16:50

over and of course they're set

16:52

up to receive people. They were

16:54

really generous and very

16:56

kind and open and sharing their information. And, that was probably

16:59

the first time I saw like,

17:02

"This is a job. This is a job

17:05

that people do". A lot of

17:07

those people I related to,

17:09

which I think is so important

17:12

to see yourself and see yourself being able to

17:14

do something in order to even have

17:16

that dream. I mean, a lot of people who

17:19

say, "You get to have such a cool job." And

17:21

if I hadn't

17:23

even just practically known, this is a job that

17:26

people do, it would not have necessarily been one I would

17:28

have thought of or ended up

17:31

pursuing. But I was like, this is

17:33

really interesting and exciting. Went back

17:35

to the States. And

17:37

as I finished up school, I decided

17:40

to start enrolling in different programs

17:42

to learn more about wine and spirits.

17:45

At that point, had you graduated

17:47

with the philosophy degree?

17:49

No, I was still in school at the time.

17:52

When you went to Somalia

17:55

school, I'm guessing, was

17:57

that in addition to

17:59

your classes or did you finish up one

18:01

and then start the other?

18:03

I finished up my degree and, like a lot

18:05

of people in my age group and generation.

18:08

People just weren't hiring. I

18:11

had about three months where I was

18:13

like, "Hey I've bettered

18:15

by mind. I've

18:17

done all this work. What am I going to do?"

18:19

And I just realized, while

18:22

in this meantime I'm going to start taking these classes

18:24

to study wine, and I did. I

18:28

definitely studied to my level,

18:31

the executive Psalm at the IWG.

18:37

The first job I thought of applying

18:39

to, to bide

18:42

my time until I found a quote unquote real

18:44

career, which I didn't even know what

18:46

would that would even look like. I had no idea.

18:50

It's definitely one of those periods of time where I think

18:52

a lot of people my age went through the same thing. Who

18:55

had gone to school right out of high

18:57

school. The first job I

18:59

applied to, they hired me as a Spanish-Portuguese

19:02

wine specialist buyer. So,

19:05

I was immediately thrown right into a

19:07

lot of technical tasting, a

19:09

lot of discussion with distributors, a lot

19:12

of discussion around price and what mix

19:14

do you want for your customers, and how

19:16

do you sell a small specialty uniquely

19:19

produced product that's far

19:21

more expensive than maybe it's more

19:24

generic volume driven competitor.

19:27

So, I was immediately thrown at

19:29

a very tender age. I

19:31

was 22 right

19:34

into the wine and

19:36

spirits business. And of course, the store sold

19:38

specialty spirits as well. And

19:40

I helped to set up. They

19:42

opened a second really massive,

19:45

very fine quality

19:47

driven location and I helped them

19:50

open that. So I got to learn about all

19:52

the different categories. Very much

19:54

like put right in the fire.

19:57

That's the best way to learn. It

19:59

was for me, at the time. I was lucky. I

20:01

was like young and foolish enough to be like, "Yeah,

20:03

that sounds great. I'm learning so much". So, I

20:06

bounced from there to a much more

20:08

smaller company that was very specialty

20:11

driven, where we worked a

20:13

lot one-on-one with clients, who

20:15

wanted very specific things. And so

20:18

when we would work with someone

20:20

to put together an order for them, they

20:23

would often ask about spirits. I

20:25

already had a little bit of a background. I knew

20:28

how they were made. I knew a little bit of the

20:30

science behind them. I had a familiarity, so

20:33

I started realizing that

20:35

if I learned more about spirits, I

20:37

was probably about 23, at the time, I

20:40

would have a big advantage at this much

20:42

smaller, more boutique place. I

20:45

dove right in and started

20:47

reaching out to the

20:50

local craft distillers that

20:52

I was meeting and getting to know. I

20:54

was just very fortunate to be in Denver, Colorado

20:57

at the time.

20:58

I think, we're

21:00

definitely top five in every single

21:02

list that I see as

21:04

far as craft spirits, craft

21:06

beverages just in general, whether

21:09

it's beer and spirits

21:14

for sure. We are definitely

21:16

fortunate to be located in Colorado.

21:19

And then you at that time. Tell

21:22

me a little bit about

21:24

after your boutique experience,

21:27

your boutique wine buying days, if you

21:29

will. What was

21:32

your next stop ?

21:33

I was working

21:35

there and getting really curious about spirits.

21:38

I was lucky enough to be able to go knock

21:40

on the door of Stranahan's and get to know Jake

21:43

Norris. And I met Todd Leopold

21:45

before he had relocated Leopold Bros.

21:48

Spirits. I'd actually met some of his staff.

21:51

And we were one of the first accounts to pick up his spirits,

21:53

and then he later moved and that's when I got to

21:56

know him. So, the earlier days where

21:59

very few people were showing up and knocking

22:01

on their door and asking them what they did and they

22:04

were very excited to share what they

22:06

did. Now, there's a lot.

22:09

I get emails every day about it and it's really

22:12

overwhelming , which is great. It's wonderful. It's always a compliment,

22:15

but it is a lot. So I feel really lucky I

22:17

was interested, at a time where you could

22:20

still very easily access all

22:23

these people, so that made me

22:25

more curious in other spirits. Of course,

22:27

I became very familiar with your main role

22:30

bond, because we would handle all these specialty

22:32

clients who wanted very fine spirits. So,

22:35

I just sent them an email and I said, "I have

22:37

this background in wine. I have

22:40

some knowledge about wine making and I

22:43

really am interested in learning how you guys

22:45

distill wine into these

22:48

cognac inspired

22:51

American brandies". And, they

22:53

wrote back- it's the answer I give people

22:55

still today most of the time- "There's just not really

22:58

like a book you can read, but

23:00

we're hiring for an assistant distiller and

23:03

no one has any experience,

23:05

you sound like you have some experience and

23:07

are interested in learning, would you come

23:11

out here?" So that totally changed my life,

23:14

again. I

23:16

packed up my bags and moved

23:18

out there and just

23:21

totally started fresh

23:23

at what I would've considered like, Oh, a

23:25

dream job I could maybe have in 10 or

23:27

15 years. I was lucky

23:30

enough to that the

23:32

universe had me send the right email at the right time.

23:34

So it worked out.

23:35

What does days as an assistant

23:37

distiller look like?

23:39

Well, it's very particular because it's seasonal.

23:42

So, I had like the early,

23:44

early, early morning shift- up

23:47

at 3:00 AM at the distillery

23:50

at 4:00 AM, dealing with the

23:51

still, setting up, making a

23:54

heads cut, and then doing seller

23:56

work. Because, basically, there's this

23:58

mad rush in

24:00

Brandy that's very different than when you make

24:02

most other spirits, where fruit

24:05

is very fragile and it's only ripe a

24:07

few weeks. So you are

24:09

just cranking that still 24

24:12

hours a day, moving wine

24:14

around, juggling tanks,

24:16

coordinating harvests . It's

24:19

really, really wild. And then once everything's

24:21

distilled, the stills turn off for the

24:23

rest of the year. And you're just doing

24:26

barrel and seller work. And

24:28

that's why I think there is such an emphasis

24:30

on the art of blending and the art of

24:32

seller tasting and seller work in

24:35

a lot of those spirit traditions.

24:37

What does the

24:40

barrel and seller work look like? Like, physically

24:43

moving barrels around. How

24:46

does that work?

24:47

Yeah, mostly pumping in and out of barrels a lot

24:49

of when you'll go into new Oak for the first year,

24:52

and then it'll get transferred to used Oak

24:54

the second year, and then you're just constantly tasting

24:56

and sorting barrels. And this is what happens

24:59

at every high engagement

25:01

distillery as well as every high engagement winery. In

25:04

champagne and Bordeaux, when I

25:07

go visit wine makers there and I

25:10

do taste trainings with them,

25:12

it's the same thing where you taste

25:14

a cask that's two years old

25:16

and you projected it and you distilled it

25:18

to be structured to age a

25:21

certain amount and go to a certain

25:23

label profile. Maybe it's going to

25:26

your XO cause it's really fine, or maybe you're

25:28

using it as a blending component, which is like

25:31

a little bit more

25:33

simple, generic, approachable, and mixable. And

25:35

at Privateer , we would have things that we taste

25:38

and we feel are really fine and we've structured

25:40

the age a really long time to become our bottled

25:43

in bond, or we've distilled

25:45

it very specifically to become a distiller's drawer,

25:47

or we've made something that will be

25:49

approachable at two years age to be blended

25:52

in a more value driven

25:54

bartender friendly rum. But you, of course, go back

25:57

and taste the barrels and some of them go

25:59

different directions and you resort them and you say,

26:02

"You know what? I thought this was a really simple

26:04

barrel, but it is turning into something

26:06

beautiful and you re-designate

26:08

it." Or "I thought that I had built this

26:11

to age a good 10 years before

26:13

you could really access the flavor, but it's opening

26:15

up really fast. I need to

26:17

check this in two years". So, you're just going through

26:20

and checking those things and then you're starting to build

26:22

blends. You say, this one has a

26:24

really great top note, and

26:27

this one has a really long finish. These

26:29

two barrels should be married. And

26:31

then, also, putting down

26:33

barrel aged to

26:35

water to age, which is basically,

26:37

in essence, really low proof spirit,

26:40

that you'll use for proofing down in a number

26:43

of years. And then, also, tasting

26:45

barrels you expected to blend and you go, "You know

26:47

what? This barrel has everything.

26:50

It's got top note. It's

26:52

got finish. It's got mi d p a lette. This

26:54

should not be blended away. This should be

26:56

its own expression itself". So just

26:58

constantly reevaluating and working with

27:00

the spirits and guiding them towards where they

27:02

need to be-- is this got a

27:04

lot of spice to it from aging and

27:06

a used rye whiskey barrel? Should we transfer

27:09

it to a Brandy barrel? Or, the

27:11

Oak is becoming really pronounced on this,

27:13

let me throw it in a third use cask

27:15

for a year and see where it's at

27:17

then, and all those sorts of choices

27:19

that you're making.

27:20

So, are you using that kind

27:22

of cognac Brandy

27:25

making skills and applying

27:27

it to rum and actually moving the

27:30

rum in and out of barrels and doing

27:33

those types of expressio? That sounds

27:35

like it's pretty unique for rum.

27:38

It's not that unique for rum.

27:43

I think, that we identify them as

27:45

cognac techniques, but honestly

27:47

they're just top and seller techniques and you'll see

27:50

them at really

27:52

good distilleries, highly engaged

27:54

distilleries everywhere you go-- In Scotland,

27:57

in France, and in the Caribbean

28:00

there's definitely, it's not one

28:02

thing that belongs to one person

28:05

or one group or one culture. But yeah,

28:08

I would say in the Caribbean, the art of blending

28:10

is really incredible because,

28:14

when I was very familiar with American

28:16

whiskey, it was- "Here's

28:18

your recipe. You ferment it this

28:20

way. You ferment it that way every

28:22

day, day after day. And here's your still.

28:25

And you distilled to this proof and

28:27

you run your still in the same configuration

28:30

every single day, day after day. And

28:32

here's your new American Oak barrel. And

28:34

you go into your new American Oak barrel day

28:37

after day after day". Whereas in

28:42

rum, we call them marks. So you

28:44

create different marks.

28:49

So you might have fermentation (A) and it

28:51

has a different yeast blend, or

28:54

you're hitting a different pH, or you're

28:57

using different elements in Jamaica, say

29:00

you're using

29:02

muck or acid slop or Dunder is used all over

29:05

the rum world, which is

29:07

essentially the same as a backset. And

29:10

that's used everywhere. So maybe you're using

29:13

more dunder, maybe you're using less. So

29:15

you create these different fermentations. And then, you send them

29:17

to the still. And

29:19

in the Caribbean, a lot of

29:22

these distilleries will have a

29:24

wide variety of stills and some of them will

29:26

be built out of like, "This one is

29:28

half a four sites still. Their foresight

29:33

plots , but then their

29:35

Vendome thumpers or retort . And so it's really interesting

29:37

to see how that goes. At

29:40

Appleton, they might be putting

29:42

this fermentation (

29:45

B) through their retort pot still.

29:47

And then the next day, they're putting fermentation

29:50

(B) through their column still. And

29:52

then the next day, they're putting

29:55

fermentation (C) through a different type of column

29:57

still. So they're making all

30:00

these different expressions, aging them in

30:02

all different barrels. At foursquare

30:05

, they've got Sauternes, Sherry

30:09

, poor American whiskey, they probably

30:12

have Brandy- all sorts of different barrels because

30:14

you want all of these different expressions back in

30:17

your barrel room to use as blending

30:19

tools. In the Caribbean, all of this is very

30:22

common and the proportion of pot

30:24

distillate you're blending with single column

30:26

or multi column or which

30:31

fermentation stream was this pulled from, and what

30:33

kind of fermentation was this one? It's amazing

30:35

the complexity they have in their barrel rooms. And

30:38

the way that these incredible

30:40

master blenders they

30:43

just keep it all in their head.

30:45

One of the things that always amazes me in the

30:47

Caribbean is, from the way people speak about

30:50

it to how it actually functions is, you'll

30:52

meet really young staff members there

30:55

and they have multiple degrees

30:57

like, clinical engineering and organic

30:59

chemistry. I mean, they

31:01

really do this blend of art and

31:04

science to this really high

31:07

level. So, I would say definitely in the blending

31:09

and selecting of casks, it's definitely

31:11

a big art down there.

31:13

Tell me a little bit about the theory

31:15

of Elevage that you

31:17

have considered

31:21

your past work and your current work to the

31:23

point you've been able to give it a name and

31:25

assign it to a classical or defined

31:27

group within a larger expanse

31:30

of modern history.

31:32

I really love this

31:34

term Elevage. It's

31:37

an old classical term, as

31:40

you mentioned. I, of course, coming up

31:42

through my experience in wine was exposed to

31:44

it that way. And it's really just putting

31:47

a name to

31:50

something that producers everywhere,

31:52

especially highly engaged producers do.

31:55

And that sort of this idea, there's

31:57

not an exact English translation to

31:59

the philosophy, but we all kinda know

32:01

or see it. It, basically, speaks

32:03

to like the rearing or the

32:06

bringing up of something. And I often talk

32:08

about like, the barrels are like, they're

32:10

like little kids and they all have

32:13

different personalities. And then, when you finish

32:15

creating a product, you send it out in

32:18

the world and it's its

32:20

own thing now. It's not mine anymore, but I hope that

32:23

it reflects what we put into it.

32:25

So that idea of the rearing

32:27

and the upbringing. And so Elevage

32:30

sort of being this constant work that

32:33

you're doing as you bring

32:36

these spirits up to maturity.

32:40

It captures that philosophy and everything

32:42

that it encompasses that goes far beyond just, "We stick it

32:44

in a barrel and we put it

32:47

back in the warehouse- no

32:49

engaged producer is doing that, they're always

32:52

being very thoughtful and aware even if

32:55

it might seem very nonchalant on the outside.

32:57

I'll meet a Caribbean producer and they'll be like, "Oh

32:59

yeah, we're just super chill about it." And

33:02

then you start talking to them and they're so passionate

33:04

and they're so engaged. And they're

33:07

really thinking about everything they're selecting and

33:09

how they're creating it. And then, we always joke about

33:13

conscientious non Elevage, where you just let it

33:16

be. You set it aside and you let it

33:18

be and you don't

33:21

overly manipulate it and you don't overly process

33:23

it, cause that can lead to its own

33:26

problems.

33:26

For rum, you're an

33:28

advocate for not sweetening it, is

33:31

that correct?

33:32

For me, there's rum and

33:34

then there's rum liqour. Rum,

33:37

traditionally, is not sweetened.

33:39

When you look at a lot of the traditional

33:42

producers; Foursquare St Nicholas Abbey,

33:45

Mount Gay, or Edgerton Park

33:47

, Hampden Estate, Appleton,

33:49

these are not

33:52

sweet rums and they're not

33:54

sweetened. I see a lot of

33:57

like brand driven rums

33:59

that are sweetened. But as far as

34:01

what traditional rum is, it's not sweet.

34:04

I think you see a little bit more of it

34:06

through central and South

34:09

America. As an expression

34:11

and style that for me,

34:13

yeah, we always feel that the

34:16

bartender and the drinker should

34:18

decide how sweet their drink is going to be

34:21

and how it sweetened. If a bartender's gonna make

34:23

a daiquiri, what kind of simple syrup? Do

34:25

they want to use fresh pressed cane juice? Do they want

34:27

to use honey? How do they want to sweeten their

34:30

cocktail? How sweet do they want it to be? So, we just

34:33

produce the spirit, spirit water, Oak and time

34:37

to give to them. And I think it's really sad that

34:39

there's a big misconception out there that, that

34:41

rum is this sweetened thing.

34:43

I hear all the time, "Oh, I don't like it. It's

34:45

so sweet". I'm like, "There's

34:48

no sugar in it". So,

34:50

there is a big misconception there. We don't

34:52

add any

34:55

artificial Oak flavor or what might be

34:58

called Rosé. We don't add any artificial age

35:00

flavor, which might be called Rancio.

35:02

We don't add any artificial aroma,

35:04

which might be called Essence. And then,

35:06

in fact, we are a zero

35:08

filtration. Everything we release is unfiltered.

35:11

What is the theory behind that

35:14

choice?

35:14

For me, especially training in wine,

35:16

but also at a number of places

35:19

and experiencing it for myself. A

35:22

filter is there to remove an impurity. Distillation

35:26

is a purifying act. So if we

35:28

haven't introduced an impurity, it

35:30

shouldn't need to be filtered. So

35:32

for us, it means that my team

35:34

works very clean because there's

35:36

no fixing it later. There's no filter there

35:38

to standardize a flavor or

35:41

fix anything that you've done. So you have to

35:43

work really clean and carefully and it keeps everyone

35:45

really engaged. And then for us

35:47

with barrel char, we can't so

35:51

carefully out of barrels and

35:53

we use a racking cane, so it leaves a

35:55

small puddle in the bottom where most of the char

35:57

is. That for us is just not an

35:59

issue. We move barrels into place

36:02

well ahead of time, so they can rest,

36:05

all the char can settle in the bottom and then we rack

36:07

off of that. So for

36:09

us, a filter is always

36:12

going to remove some part

36:15

of the character. And for

36:17

us, that harmony and that balance that

36:19

still creates. We don't want to

36:23

remove any flavor character. Vodkas,

36:25

odorless and tasteless, what makes

36:27

us rum is leaving

36:29

in everything that we can. So for us, I

36:31

really liked the texture it brings to

36:34

cocktails and to

36:37

drinks. We really care about it. So on

36:39

our bottlings on the back, there'll be a

36:45

little sentence that's like overextended

36:48

seller aging , a slight deposit may form.

36:50

But we've been really lucky that we've

36:52

never ever been contacted about anyone

36:55

having issues with any char settling

36:57

in any of their

36:59

bottles. You'll see that on like some of the higher end

37:02

for Rose's bottles as well, something similar to that cause

37:04

they also don't filter. So, for us it's

37:07

really important to leave all that flavor and texture.

37:09

Since you started out in, wine

37:12

was there a brief foray into beer

37:14

at some point in your career?

37:17

I learned a

37:19

lot about beer and I knew

37:22

a lot about beer. Now, my husband

37:24

and I started as brewing partners and we

37:26

would brew beer together and we founded

37:29

the Dunder brewers league. I've always

37:32

had a little interest in dabbling in

37:34

and around the beer world

37:37

and attended Siebel Institute, which

37:39

obviously has a

37:42

heavy beer emphasis. And that's where

37:44

I definitely picked up working with

37:47

(POF positive East ) and things like that

37:50

from some of that beer experience.

37:53

But, never a professional brewery, now.

37:57

Distilling Craft is brought to you by Dalkita, a group

37:59

of architects and engineers who specialize in

38:02

designing craft distilleries across the US.

38:04

More information is available at

38:06

our website www.dalkita.com Now, let's

38:08

get back to the show.

38:20

You've said previously, the point is to have people

38:23

drink the things that you make, so

38:26

keeping them accessible. What does accessible

38:29

mean to you?

38:30

For me it's- I would say

38:33

when we discuss like it's really to

38:35

me that people can be able to taste and access

38:38

what it is we do. I would

38:40

say, we get encouraged a lot to

38:42

raise our prices much more

38:44

than where they're at. I would say, that's

38:46

the number one business advice

38:49

that professional spirits business

38:51

people tell us is. You guys are lucky

38:53

to have this cult following. You really

38:55

should charge more. You should put it at

38:57

aspirational pricing. And

39:00

I just really like, I remember being

39:02

that 23 year old, wanting

39:04

to buy a bottle of Germain-Robin b

39:07

ecause, I was going to go interview there and being

39:09

like, you know what? Like, this is the only

39:11

bottle I could afford that they make. And

39:13

everything else ike, I just couldn't

39:15

even taste it. I was going to go work for them

39:18

and I couldn't even buy it. So

39:20

for me, I want to make sure that

39:22

people can access what it is we

39:24

make and taste it and drink it

39:26

and enjoy it and have fun. I

39:29

really like that we are a value driven

39:31

room company. Meaning, it is

39:35

inherently going to cost a little more

39:37

than maybe a volume driven brand

39:39

company. Because, it means that people

39:41

are like drinking it and enjoying it. I

39:44

really believe in a less and better

39:46

drinking experience where you

39:49

have two cocktails that you're thoughtful

39:51

about and you really enjoy and

39:54

really savor them and take them in and you find

39:56

them really satisfying. And

39:58

that's great. As opposed to, I'm going to slam

40:01

like six rum and Cokes really thoughtlessly,

40:03

and it's not actually gonna bring me

40:05

a lot of conscientious pleasure as

40:07

far as like sustainability and health are both

40:10

concerned. I really liked the lesson better

40:12

model, but it doesn't mean I want

40:14

to just charge more because we can.

40:16

I want to charge what

40:18

it costs us to make it and

40:22

what it costs us to take care of our people.

40:24

But, I

40:27

always price us less than what I'm

40:29

sure we could charge

40:32

if we wanted to. And for me, I

40:34

would care about that for the

40:36

long distance in the longevity of our

40:38

company.

40:39

I think that is a wonderful

40:42

way to look at your business.

40:44

You're making expressions

40:46

accessible to people, so that it can

40:49

be kind of like on their

40:51

bar at all times, and that people

40:53

can use it and have fun with it. So

40:55

I really think that is a smart decision

40:59

and it's not always the one that people

41:01

make.

41:01

I'm sure there's a lot of people who would be

41:03

much happier if I didn't

41:06

fight so hard to do it. But

41:08

I think that everyone at our company is really

41:10

in alignment about anyone

41:13

can be a Privateer fan. It's not just

41:15

for one group of people. So

41:18

for me, it's really important that we actually do that.

41:20

I'm so glad everyone at my company shares

41:22

that.

41:23

Tell me a little bit about

41:25

the team at Privateer. So,

41:27

you mentioned that you want to take care

41:30

of your people. How many people are

41:32

we talking and what are some

41:34

of the programs that you have in place to take care

41:36

of them?

41:37

We have three distillers

41:40

plus me, and

41:42

they are the heartbeat. They

41:44

really incredible.

41:48

So, we have Peter who has

41:50

been with us for seven years. Dylan

41:53

has been with us for four. And then,

41:55

Anhalka who's been with us for just over a

42:00

year. And it's so important

42:02

for me that people hear their names

42:04

and see their faces cause people are

42:06

like, Oh Maggie is the magical

42:08

master distiller. But you know what? I'm on the road

42:10

a lot. And the people doing the hard

42:13

work and making incredible spirits are

42:15

those guys. And, they're some of the

42:18

best distillers I know. I'm so lucky to work with

42:21

them. And, Anhalka joined our company when

42:24

she was 22 .and she has

42:26

just really

42:29

taken off and embraced everything

42:31

and in ways I could not have when

42:33

I was 22 and wanting to get in this

42:35

business. So that team is really

42:38

amazing. We have Kevin who's our

42:40

VP of sales and

42:42

his vision in working hand-in-hand with

42:44

the production team, and handing

42:46

off to our sales team

42:49

is really incredible. He handles a

42:51

lot of our single barrel sales. So we have a

42:54

lot of people who buy Privateer

42:56

by the barrel. So bartenders

42:58

will come in, they'll taste for exactly

43:00

the expression they

43:03

want for their flavor profile. And so he does a lot

43:05

of that where he works with them and says, "Okay,

43:07

what flavors are you looking

43:09

for? How do you like your drinks? What excites

43:11

you? What price points are really important

43:13

to you?" And we hand select a number of barrels

43:16

for them to taste. He leads

43:18

them through that tasting, and then they select it, and

43:21

then get to be part of the label design. So that's

43:23

a big part of our

43:25

business that he makes

43:27

happen on a

43:29

very personal basis, like very one-on-one,

43:32

very hospitality oriented. And then

43:35

we have Henry and Jay and Bob

43:37

out in the sales field. Cause we do

43:40

self-distribution in the state of Massachusetts as someone

43:43

with a farmer distiller's license, we're allowed

43:45

to, which is incredible for us. It's

43:47

a lot of logistics to

43:50

handle. But being able to control our own brand

43:52

message and tell people exactly what it is

43:54

we do and how, it means

43:57

so much as a story

43:59

driven company. So those guys

44:02

are really incredible masters

44:04

of making that happen. We have Mary

44:06

Ellen and Alison . So,

44:08

Mary Ellen does all of

44:10

our tours and hospitality space. Our

44:13

Friday night flights, our death metal

44:15

yoga, that's going on tomorrow. All of

44:17

our tours. And also

44:20

all of our special seller door sales become distillers Georgia

44:22

day, where people come in and they see the distillery and

44:25

they get to taste our limited releases for

44:27

the year. And then

44:29

Alison does a lot of- all the

44:31

important stuff, all the logistics,

44:33

all the planning, keeping us organized. She's

44:36

very important for us right

44:38

now in the FET relief fight that's going on,

44:40

which is so important. So I would say

44:43

almost half of her time

44:45

is dedicated to doing outreach with

44:48

senators and Congress people and community

44:50

members to get them letter writing

44:52

to representatives about how important

44:54

it is that the cost of spirits

44:57

excise tax does not go

44:59

up 400% January 1st. And what that

45:01

would mean for our industry and

45:03

for a lot of our

45:05

peers. And then, John Toto is

45:08

our operations guy, which is like probably the

45:10

least fancy title at our company, but he

45:12

keeps all the equipment at the

45:15

distillery running. He is the life saver . We

45:17

could not do

45:19

what we do without him. It's amazing

45:22

what he handles. And then our CEO, Andrew

45:24

Cabot, who creates the overarching

45:27

vision founded the company and make sure we're

45:29

all really thinking five years ahead.

45:32

He's just been amazing to learn

45:34

from as an entrepreneur. It's

45:37

such a special skill and it's so rare

45:39

in people. And he really just has

45:41

that magic.

45:42

That's interesting. I

45:45

think that Andrew Cabot comes from

45:47

another Andrew Cabot from colonial

45:49

times, so maybe that is

45:51

part of their family, you know what I mean?

45:54

So, the Andrew Cabot

45:56

of colonial times,

45:59

he is named after. It's his sixth

46:05

generation- great-great-great-great-grandfather. He

46:08

was a really incredible entrepreneur.

46:13

He had the

46:15

onlyTobin Bridge North of

46:18

Boston. He had a rum distillery

46:20

and Essex County. It's pretty amazing. Like, you see all

46:22

these old documents like

46:24

a bill of sale for one

46:28

of the first pieces

46:31

of the industrial revolution.

46:33

Like, he's ordering this technical machinery that like,

46:35

yeah, he's the birth of the industrial

46:37

revolution in the U.S. Like, he's such an entrepreneur. I think

46:40

it just runs in their family.

46:41

It's like when the

46:44

folks that do foreign service, so the foreign

46:46

service members that go

46:48

over and our ambassadors or ambassadors

46:50

staffs in different countries,

46:52

those kids come out having

46:55

gone to school in different countries and cultures,

46:58

and they just have better

47:00

negotiation skills, better

47:03

communication skills, and I think it is part of their environment.

47:06

I think there is part of that, what

47:09

discussions were had around the dinner table when

47:11

you were a kid and how does it shape your life.

47:13

Are you from Colorado

47:16

originally?

47:17

I was born in Inglewood.

47:25

I was born in Inglewood. I

47:28

grew up most of my childhood in Los

47:30

Angeles. But then as a preteen,

47:32

my mom moved us back to

47:35

Colorado. And then, I went to school at

47:37

CU Boulder and then transferred to CU Denver.

47:40

I was there until I went to Germain-Robin

47:42

. And then even after Germain-Robin , I came back

47:44

for a year before coming

47:46

back out to Privateer.

47:48

What are some of the programs

47:50

that you guys have at your distillery

47:53

as far as health plans

47:55

or, I don't

47:58

know, wellness plans, that kind of thing?

48:01

You had asked how

48:04

is it important for us to take care of

48:07

our people and , and

48:10

for us, all of

48:12

our employees staff, they get

48:15

full healthcare , even some of our part time

48:18

employees that includes vision.

48:20

And for us, it's really important that the

48:22

mental healthcare benefits are really strong as

48:25

well. So just

48:27

two years ago, we upgraded everyone's

48:30

benefits. We already had very

48:32

generous healthcare. We were able to upgrade everyone's

48:35

benefits with the FET relief that went through. It was one of the

48:37

first things we did. We do a lot of

48:39

educational support. So every

48:42

year, I would say, every member of the

48:44

distilling staff takes an educational trip, so

48:47

they get to go study

48:50

something. So, we've had people go

48:52

study the Zingerman's model out

48:54

in Ann Arbor, Michigan. They do

48:56

really incredible classes there for

48:58

leadership and personal development in

49:01

the business world. And because they

49:04

are a fine foods purveyor, they're really interested in a lot of

49:08

the same things we are, as a business.

49:10

We've had

49:12

people go and study at different distilleries. We give

49:15

them full support while they go do that. Spirits

49:17

judging competition, sending them to go be a judge. They

49:20

get the experience of tasting

49:22

a lot of things back to back, and

49:25

seeing where everything is going on in the business.

49:27

And then tales of the cocktail.

49:29

We sent Anhalka to

49:31

last year

49:35

and it was really amazing

49:37

traveling with her, cause she's 22, it's

49:39

tales of the cocktail, there's parties and events

49:41

and alcohol everywhere, is

49:44

this going to go badly? And I want to say I love

49:46

these young millennials. It's like 11:00 PM

49:48

and she's like I just really feel like we

49:50

want to have a

49:52

great day tomorrow. We should go back to the

49:55

room and do some bedtime yoga and journal, maybe some

49:57

tea. And then we'll

49:59

feel fresh tomorrow. And I'm like, I love you

50:02

guys. This is great. Like, you're awesome.

50:04

You don't want to be party and

50:06

get trashed and then cause a problem that we

50:09

have to like

50:11

deal with. Awesome. So yeah,

50:13

it's it's really cool. And like

50:16

I said, we have a really strong safety minded

50:19

mentality at Privateer. Of course that

50:21

just carries on through everything. when people

50:23

are out at night, they're really thinking about their safety.

50:25

It's important to us to

50:28

send the message to all of our staff. Like, you're

50:30

not disposable, you're valuable and you

50:33

deserve to take care of yourself. I

50:35

think, a lot in our industry,

50:37

especially in the service industry, there's

50:39

this idea that people are disposable, and

50:41

that's when they treat themselves more poorly. So,

50:43

we always ingrain this, you're very

50:46

valuable. Take care of yourself first. If you are

50:49

not okay, you can't

50:51

bring your best self to

50:53

work mentality. We hear this message,

50:56

people are lazy.

50:58

People are this. It's so hard sometimes with newer employees to

51:00

get them to stop and go home and take care

51:02

of themselves when they're sick. They're scared to-

51:04

"Am I allowed to go do this?"

51:07

It's like, "Yes, please, please,

51:09

please". And it takes a while

51:11

for people to be able to settle in

51:13

with the idea of really putting themselves first,

51:15

so they can do great work.

51:18

I think, it's a real shame

51:20

that in our culture, that's such an

51:22

issue. So, I think, that binds all into

51:25

our benefits and support

51:27

that we give our employees. We give

51:29

basically unlimited time off. You just arrange

51:31

that your work is covered. And when

51:34

someone is off, they are off. You

51:36

don't email them, you

51:38

don't call them, you don't text them. It's

51:40

so important to us. I think one of the

51:42

best rules we put in

51:45

as a distillery was, No texting after 6:00 PM",

51:48

because when people are home, they need to be

51:50

home. We can't rest and they can't clear their head.

51:52

And, you have to

51:54

have a good home life, so that

51:57

when things are stressful at work, you're like, okay

51:59

great, I have support at home. And when things are stressful at home, you're

52:01

like, you know what? I get to look forward to a

52:03

great day at work. Like, you have

52:06

to have those other things in your life

52:08

to get you through tough times, other

52:10

parts of your life. So for us, it's

52:12

really important that when people are home, they get

52:14

to rest. And we have a

52:16

family first policy, that if someone needs time off

52:19

for a family emergency, it

52:21

is a no questions asked, everyone pitches in

52:23

and that person gets their time.

52:26

I've really, really

52:28

come to love and respect that policy

52:31

cause I've needed it. something happens with my

52:33

sister and she's got three boys and I have to head

52:35

out and help her. And it feels

52:38

great to know you just don't have to

52:40

justify it or argue it or feel really

52:42

bad. Everyone gets it. And

52:44

everyone is so supportive of each other. I think

52:46

that breeds that

52:49

willingness to never abuse those policies,

52:51

so it kind of takes care of itself.

52:54

That's a wonderful policy and I'm very glad

52:56

that you have that for your staff.

52:58

The other thing we have that I think

53:00

is rare is, we have paternity leave.

53:03

We also have paternity leave.

53:05

We didn't have like, what happens

53:07

if somebody has a baby policy

53:10

at al, but then one of

53:12

our architects went to adopted a

53:15

child and he

53:19

has a partner named Jeff.

53:21

And so we were like,

53:24

"Okay, you get to write the policy about

53:26

what everybody else is gonna do".

53:30

So, he got a few months off and

53:33

was able to work part time, and then came

53:35

back in within like two months or something.

53:37

So, paternity should

53:39

not be something rare.

53:42

Right. Anyone can be

53:45

a full time caregiver to a child.

53:48

We need to respect that for

53:51

people of all genders. So for

53:53

us, that was a really important thing. It's

53:56

funny, it came up and

53:58

we were like, "Oh, okay, yeah, that just exists

54:01

now". You guys were like, "Obviously,

54:04

we don't even need to have a meeting about it. It's

54:06

there. Poof. Like, we all out,

54:08

we know who we are as a company, so we know

54:11

what that means. And, it's

54:14

so important to have that

54:16

expectation that everyone pitches

54:19

in a family. And you

54:21

don't overburden certain

54:23

groups of people over other groups of people

54:25

when anyone can be that person who's

54:27

there. Sometimes, it

54:30

takes a number of people to

54:32

be there for a family.

54:33

They're just like barrels. Some of them are more

54:35

needy than others.

54:37

Right. You gotta let them fulfill

54:39

their needs because the potential is endless

54:41

in the future.

54:48

Let's talk a little bit about your

54:50

actual physical distillery

54:52

now. Give us a sense

54:54

of what Ipswich,

54:57

Massachusetts is like as a town.

54:59

Ipswich, Massachusetts is

55:01

20 miles North of Boston. When

55:05

I first came here, I almost couldn't believe

55:07

it, because I grew up in LA and

55:09

then Denver. There's

55:12

suburban sprawl everywhere.

55:14

But, here, it's very much Boston ends.

55:17

There's a little bit of suburbia, but then

55:19

you're almost instantly in farmland.

55:20

So, where we live

55:22

is very much small family

55:25

owned farms everywhere.

55:27

You can buy eggs, at the end

55:29

of anyone's driveway. In

55:34

my 10 minute drive, I pass five houses

55:37

that sell eggs, at the end of the driveway. So

55:39

people have chickens and goats and cows.

55:42

They're all very small scale family owned farms

55:44

and there's lots of little farm stands. And

55:47

then, of course, it's on the coast, we call

55:49

it, the Nasha, the North shore.

55:53

Ipswich is like a

55:55

little seaside fisherman's village. It's

55:57

got like adorable cobblestone streets,

56:00

with all the old buildings. It's

56:03

a very small town. Everyone knows

56:06

each other. It's really, really special.

56:08

I really care for it. It's really

56:12

interesting- we have a town landing, which is

56:14

where ships would still to

56:16

this day if you sail here

56:19

from Glosser or the Cape or

56:22

somewhere, like there's businesses that have

56:24

directions on their website like, Oh well from the town

56:26

landing turn left, cause people

56:28

would sail into town. So that still

56:32

happens. Basically,

56:34

if you're not right on the shore, it's the

56:36

small family owned farms . And then if you're right on

56:39

the shore , it's these little fishermen villages.

56:42

It's really, really cool.

56:44

A lot of people have lived here their whole lives. It's really

56:46

interesting. When I first moved here it was like, "Well, why did

56:48

you move here? Like, you're from a way.

56:51

I'm from Denver where everyone moves in and out. And

56:53

I'm from LA where everyone moves in and out". And I'm

56:56

like, "Oh wow, this is like really a place

56:58

where people live their whole lives". You

57:00

can tell who is from what village

57:03

by their accent. I mean, these villages

57:05

are 10 minutes apart. So

57:07

it's interesting to me.

57:09

That's a lot like Scotland

57:11

and Ireland too.

57:13

Right. It's

57:16

a really beautiful town. Our facility is

57:19

on the outskirts of town. There's

57:22

like warehouse where they make bagels

57:25

there. There's a lot of people who do winter boat

57:27

storage there, typical

57:29

to most craft distilleries. And

57:32

then, we're in a warehouse that

57:35

the outside of it is painted

57:37

with ship dazzle. Never

57:40

seen a ship dazzle, it's an interesting Google.

57:43

But basically they would paint these ships

57:46

in these really incredible patterns

57:49

to disguise them from radar.

57:52

TSo the CEO of our company got really

57:54

excited about painting our warehouse, like

57:56

a ship with dazzle on it and

57:58

it looks pretty awesome. It started like a Bauhaus

58:02

vibe going on. It's very artistic.

58:05

And then, inside the

58:08

warehouse when visitors walk in, they walk right into our

58:10

tasting room, which is really,

58:12

really beautiful. The bar

58:14

is an actual boat,

58:16

an actual sailboat, that's been converted

58:19

into a bar.

58:21

It's like a really beautiful

58:25

classic sort of racing sailboat.

58:27

And and, above

58:30

it are these lights that were designed

58:32

by a local artist MIT,

58:34

and they look like little s ails out

58:36

in the ocean, and then they're hanging from

58:39

t hese h

58:42

angers in the ceiling that almost l ook like constellations

58:44

across the ceiling. So it's really beautiful.

58:48

And the windows as these big beautiful

58:50

windows that look out on the distillery

58:52

and those are all from an old abandoned warehouse

58:55

in Chicago. We had them r

58:57

eglazed with obviously glass that would be appropriate

59:00

to a distillery. And

59:02

then, there's just lots of little details

59:05

all throughout. There's these incredible

59:07

slabs of live Oakwood.

59:11

These trees they would soak in Boston

59:13

Harbor. And as you soak them, the r

59:15

ings compress more and more and more. S

59:17

o the wood becomes very sturdy and very

59:20

heavy. And that's what old ships

59:22

were made out of, so they could withstand

59:24

a C anon fire. And then, the

59:26

wall, behind those Oak slabs, is

59:28

made of hand hammered copper. So

59:31

i t w as just lots of little details like that all

59:33

around. And people can come a

59:35

nd they do Friday night flights, which are cocktail

59:37

nights on Thursdays and Fridays. And

59:40

then we do tours on Saturdays. And then, we

59:42

have things like a p upper party, where

59:44

people can bring their dogs

59:46

in and we give them handkerchiefs,

59:48

private handkerchiefs to their dogs, and

59:51

all sorts of events like that. And it's really

59:54

nice for us to be able to bring the publican,

59:57

cause we work in the distillery all day,

1:00:00

like just a few of us in our work

1:00:02

shoes, mostly with that soft

1:00:04

f ocus silence all d ay. And

1:00:07

to be able to see people come in and really interact

1:00:09

with the spirit, you're like, Oh this is like a thing

1:00:12

out in the world and people are enjoying it.

1:00:14

It's really good energy for

1:00:16

us to bring into the distillery.

1:00:19

It means a lot to be able to do that. For

1:00:23

us, we opened our tasting room just

1:00:25

a couple of years ago. So, our company was already

1:00:27

five years old. A lot of people

1:00:29

o pen their tasting room right away c ause, it brings really

1:00:31

meaningful revenue and it's a good marketing opportunity.

1:00:35

But for us, we knew that distribution

1:00:37

is really the hardest part of this

1:00:39

business, especially, we knew for us

1:00:41

as a small brand, who doesn't

1:00:43

have a huge marketing budget. So we

1:00:45

really just focused on rocking

1:00:48

distribution well the

1:00:50

first five years. We didn't want to be trying to

1:00:52

run that and another business

1:00:54

a nd the tasting room. So then when we

1:00:57

felt ready, we were ready to open the tasting

1:00:59

room. And I think, that's actually been a

1:01:01

wiser choice we made that wouldn't have

1:01:03

seemed obvious at first blush,

1:01:05

but has actually ended up meaning a lot to us

1:01:08

and saving us a lot in the end

1:01:10

as far as being able to focus on the hardest

1:01:12

part of the business first and

1:01:15

really get off the ground strong.

1:01:17

I do think that there is something

1:01:19

to be said for either

1:01:21

way that you go. A lot of people

1:01:23

choose to do the tasting room first,

1:01:25

but doing

1:01:27

the production facility first, and

1:01:29

then bringing your tasting room on later

1:01:32

does give you time to consider

1:01:35

and let your brand

1:01:37

grow into what it's going to be.

1:01:39

And then, your tasting room can more

1:01:43

match that instead of being generic.

1:01:45

You know what I mean?

1:01:46

Absolutely. We knew more

1:01:49

about who we were and we were really

1:01:51

confident to show who we were. Whereas,

1:01:53

I think, if we brought a lot of general public in,

1:01:55

in those very early days, it

1:01:58

might have swayed us or

1:02:00

pushed us. we get asked all the time

1:02:03

if we want to make spiced rum, and

1:02:05

that's not really who we are or what I'm

1:02:07

super excited about or what I can do best.

1:02:10

There are people out there who make great spice rums, especially

1:02:13

craft distilleries that already do

1:02:15

it really well. And that might've convinced

1:02:17

us to make that choice when we heard

1:02:19

that in our earlier days, when we were less secure,

1:02:21

like in who we were, and that

1:02:23

wouldn't have been the right choice for us. I think, we knew

1:02:25

who we were.

1:02:26

That's awesome. So your stills

1:02:29

are from Christian CARL, it looks

1:02:31

like

1:02:32

We have two CARL stills

1:02:34

that are a hybrid pot column and then we have

1:02:36

one Vendome Kentucky potstill

1:02:38

.

1:02:39

Is one

1:02:43

of them a stripping still?

1:02:44

Yeah, the Vendome is our stripping still

1:02:46

and then the Christian CARLs are

1:02:49

spirit stills. And like in the

1:02:51

Caribbean tradition or just rum tradition,

1:02:54

it means that we can make these different marks

1:02:56

and these different styles and age them differently.

1:02:59

Let's talk a little bit about spirits

1:03:02

judging, which is really why we're talking

1:03:04

today. Tell me

1:03:06

about the craft spirits ACSA spirits

1:03:11

judging program.

1:03:13

I joined

1:03:16

as the judging director,

1:03:19

I want to say about four years ago. I think we just

1:03:21

had our fourth one. Basically, someone

1:03:26

on the board asked me like, "Why don't you ever enter

1:03:28

your spirits?" And I said, "I

1:03:30

just don't like a lot

1:03:32

of spirits competitions. I think a lot of them

1:03:34

are money-making schemes. And I

1:03:36

think that a lot of them

1:03:38

are just about generating these imaginary

1:03:41

fake marketing materials of like, Oh

1:03:43

you got 102 points

1:03:45

in a triple gold. Spire!

1:03:49

Woo! And it just wasn't for me". And

1:03:52

they said, "Well, we're a not for

1:03:54

profit. We're inherently

1:03:56

not making money on this. We really are trying

1:03:58

to be in the service of

1:04:00

our members and create something special.

1:04:03

You know a lot about wine judging competitions

1:04:05

and you seem to know a lot about spirit judging competitions",

1:04:08

cause I ran my mouth and they

1:04:10

said, "Why don't you head it up and make

1:04:12

it something you'd be really proud to enter, but

1:04:14

don't enter it cause you're the judging director". So

1:04:21

for me, it was really great because there

1:04:27

is none of this money making scheme pressure

1:04:29

to do stupid things like award stuff

1:04:31

that shouldn't get awarded or really push metals

1:04:34

. It's really about what do

1:04:36

our members want, what have they told us

1:04:38

they want? How do we provide

1:04:41

something that's really meaningful for them? How

1:04:44

do we make

1:04:46

sure that they're excited

1:04:49

to enter and excited to get their information

1:04:51

back? How do we make it as honest

1:04:54

and transparent and fair as

1:04:56

possible? Because, we're not for

1:04:58

profit, we don't have any alternative

1:04:59

motives, our ulterior

1:05:02

motives. So, we do

1:05:04

absolute top notch quality

1:05:06

control. I would never enter my

1:05:09

products. In fact, I'm not even

1:05:11

allowed to touch or flight

1:05:13

the rums because I'm a rum maker

1:05:16

and I would think

1:05:18

certain things or have intimacy with some

1:05:20

producers and not others. So, I

1:05:22

actually don't get to make any decisions on what happens

1:05:24

to the rum panels either if the steward

1:05:27

comes back and says, Hey, I think this needs

1:05:29

to be flighted this way, that decision

1:05:31

goes to my second and third in command.

1:05:34

And they actually make all those choices because I'm

1:05:36

not allowed to. So we bring like extra,

1:05:38

extra levels of transparency

1:05:41

and honesty. We never

1:05:43

ever adjust a judge's score where

1:05:45

if I have judged at competitions where I

1:05:47

know scores have been adjusted, it was really

1:05:49

upsetting and was kind of the thing that turned

1:05:51

me off of all of judging. I

1:05:54

will never adjust judges scores will never omit

1:05:56

any judges scores unless they themselves

1:05:59

say like, I have a cold or I

1:06:01

something like that. So,

1:06:03

all the scores are very fair. All the feedback

1:06:06

is very honest. And for us,

1:06:08

generating meaningful feedback is very

1:06:10

important. So, we use a very detailed

1:06:15

spirit's form. It

1:06:17

allows for commentary on

1:06:19

each aspect of the spirit. It

1:06:21

also has like lists

1:06:23

of descriptors where they can circle different words

1:06:25

that apply. So I

1:06:28

hated in other

1:06:30

competitions when you get a sheet back and it would be blank

1:06:32

and you'd be like, "Well, what'd you even think? What do I

1:06:34

need to know about the spirit?" So

1:06:36

this generates a lot of feedback that the producer

1:06:38

gets back, so they understand how their spirit

1:06:41

was perceived by this other

1:06:43

person, who's hopefully I

1:06:46

really am very proud of the caliber of judges

1:06:48

we get there at the top of their field and they've tasted

1:06:50

a lot of things. So, getting

1:06:52

this meaningful detailed feedback

1:06:55

is really helpful. And then rather

1:06:57

than score three points for

1:06:59

appearance and 10 points for this

1:07:02

and 7 points for that, you

1:07:04

get one overall

1:07:07

numerical score that captures

1:07:09

the essence of

1:07:11

your spirits . So as

1:07:13

far as when producers do want to create

1:07:16

some marketing material, they can say

1:07:19

exactly 97 points or

1:07:21

99 points and a gold metal

1:07:23

or however it turns

1:07:26

out. So for them, it does create meaning

1:07:28

that when they're communicating to their customer

1:07:31

what did it when and why, there's

1:07:34

a real reason to it. It's not just a random

1:07:36

collection of numbers describing

1:07:39

bizarre facets of a product, so it's

1:07:42

actually one holistic meaningful score.

1:07:45

So I think that that is something that's

1:07:47

really valuable we bring as well.

1:07:49

I agree. Tell me

1:07:51

about the awards, because

1:07:54

I think a lot of consumers approach

1:07:56

it as the Olympic

1:07:58

style. There's

1:08:00

a gold, there's a silver, there's a bronze

1:08:03

and that was awarded to the best

1:08:05

performance that day. So,

1:08:08

how is spirit judging

1:08:10

awards? How are those awards different

1:08:13

for spirits competitions?

1:08:16

For us, at the very start of the competition,

1:08:19

we do a judge's

1:08:21

calibration seminar. The first

1:08:23

evening of the event, we all get

1:08:25

together and we all review the judge's sheet. So

1:08:28

everyone's on the same page. This

1:08:30

isn't about, does this bourbon

1:08:33

tastes like maker's Mark? Cause that's not what any of our

1:08:35

producers are trying to do.

1:08:38

Is this technically correct? It's not

1:08:41

even necessarily that you personally

1:08:43

like it or don't like

1:08:45

it. It's, what's this well done?

1:08:48

Can you get the intent of the

1:08:50

producer? What is the quality here?

1:08:52

Does the level of alcohol match

1:08:54

the level of flavor? Does the finish linger with

1:08:57

good quality flavors? And if so,

1:08:59

for how long? And we really discussed

1:09:01

what quality means and what we're looking

1:09:05

for and how important some of

1:09:09

the originality of our producers

1:09:12

are. You know, coffee flavor

1:09:16

gin one best gin two years. And it

1:09:18

tasted amazing. I saw it and I was

1:09:20

like, Oh no, that does not

1:09:22

look appealing. And I

1:09:25

saw one and so,

1:09:28

of course, I tasted it and it was

1:09:30

amazing. It was

1:09:33

so good. So that, openness to

1:09:36

things can be different and

1:09:38

things can be exciting. And just recreating what a big brand

1:09:41

already has and making people pay more for it,

1:09:44

cause you don't have the advantage of

1:09:46

scale isn't super successful for

1:09:48

a lot of our producers. Some

1:09:50

of them make a beautiful, classic whiskey

1:09:52

and that's great and they

1:09:54

should be rewarded.

1:09:56

And some people make something really new and

1:09:58

really original and they should be

1:10:01

rewarded too. So, we discuss a

1:10:03

lot of those ideas and

1:10:05

philosophies. And then as far

1:10:08

as actual awards go, we do an innovation award.

1:10:10

So, sometimes like I had POTV one

1:10:12

year as a judge, and it was so beautiful.

1:10:15

But none of the other judges

1:10:17

had ever had POTV. It

1:10:20

was kind of weird to them.

1:10:23

So it didn't metal , but

1:10:25

I thought it was great.

1:10:28

So at our competition, we would

1:10:30

have an innovation award where

1:10:32

they're allowed to vote and give points

1:10:35

for innovation. And then the highest scoring innovation product wins its

1:10:37

own award for being very original.

1:10:40

So, it helps to

1:10:43

include those things that might be a little more

1:10:45

divisive or unique. And then we

1:10:47

do our point system, and 90_100

1:10:50

is a gold, 80_90 is a silver, and 70_80

1:10:52

is a bronze. And so

1:10:54

to get any of those, they

1:10:56

have to be very good spirits. Because,

1:10:59

if they're just average there , they're

1:11:01

like, okay, great. But if it has that little

1:11:03

extra and it's exciting, that's when we start to

1:11:05

get into the philosophy of these

1:11:08

different point ranges. And on the judges score sheet

1:11:10

is a description of what 90_100

1:11:13

spirits is. This is exciting. This is

1:11:15

technically flawless. You want to share

1:11:17

this with the world. It's delicious.

1:11:20

And then 80_90 and 70_80. So,

1:11:22

each spirit is tasted

1:11:25

as its own within that scheme. So it's not

1:11:27

like a sporting event

1:11:30

where you outranked everyone. It is, did

1:11:32

it match this description? And if

1:11:34

so, it gets that metal. And

1:11:36

one of the most important things on

1:11:38

our score sheet is, we

1:11:40

have a section where it says, would you pour

1:11:43

this for a beer? And it

1:11:46

says like, absolutely, sure

1:11:48

or ma or absolutely

1:11:50

not. So for me, I think that's one of the coolest

1:11:53

things we offer, because when I

1:11:55

give my bottle to a journalist who's

1:11:57

traveling through town, and then I get a text two

1:11:59

months later, "Hey, I was at so and so's house and they

1:12:01

made me taste this bottle, this is really exciting. What

1:12:03

are you guys doing?" That

1:12:06

for me is invaluable as a small

1:12:08

producer. So, getting that feedback on the sheet is

1:12:10

very important too. After

1:12:12

all the bronze, silvers,

1:12:14

and golds are awarded, the top

1:12:17

ranking spirit across

1:12:19

each category goes

1:12:22

out to every judge for best

1:12:24

of show. And then, they get to

1:12:26

do a ranked choice voting

1:12:29

for best of show. And then best of

1:12:31

show is celebrated as the

1:12:33

most beloved spirit of the spirits tasting.

1:12:36

I like to understand what

1:12:39

it is, because sometimes you see double gold,

1:12:41

triple gold and it's like, "What is that meaning, sincerely

1:12:45

?" This seems

1:12:47

like a pretty straightforward set up

1:12:49

.

1:12:49

Well, one of the coolest things about the competition

1:12:52

is, we have a big awards Gala Dinner

1:12:55

at our convention every year. So attendees

1:12:57

of the convention get this multi-course

1:13:00

meal and we do a big onstage award

1:13:03

show and everyone is cheering over

1:13:05

a thousand distillers they're cheering you

1:13:07

on if you win. That for me

1:13:10

is like the most exciting part of the judging is getting

1:13:12

to hand out those metals and put them

1:13:14

on people, and they're just over

1:13:16

the moon and cheering and it's really,

1:13:18

really exciting.

1:13:20

It's a Gallo without having

1:13:22

to wear a tuxedo or a fancy itchy dress.

1:13:25

Overalls is welcome.

1:13:27

Yes, denim is preferred.

1:13:31

Well thank you so much for talking with

1:13:33

us today about not only

1:13:36

your distillery, but also the spirits

1:13:38

judging. I really appreciate your time

1:13:40

and effort that you put into the

1:13:43

industry, and then also talking

1:13:45

with me.

1:13:45

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking

1:13:48

the time.

1:13:50

Well, we are likely over our 50

1:13:52

minute episode target, at this

1:13:54

point, but does it matter?

1:13:57

Are you enjoying the longer format shows

1:13:59

or would you prefer that

1:14:01

I keep the episodes to a strict timeframe

1:14:04

of like 50 minutes? This is one

1:14:06

of those items I'm going to need your feedback

1:14:08

on, so send me an email (colleen@dalkita

1:14:11

. com) Tell

1:14:20

me if the episodes are too long or

1:14:22

if you prefer them as long as they need to

1:14:25

be to cover the topic. A special

1:14:27

thanks today to Andre Meunier from

1:14:29

the Oregonian and Oregon Live, for his

1:14:32

amazing work of trying every

1:14:34

single brewery in Portland. Tough

1:14:36

work, but he's trained for it. I'll

1:14:38

have a link to his extensive body of

1:14:40

work covering all of Portland's breweries

1:14:42

with the Oregonian and Oregon Live

1:14:45

on our show notes page, so you can read

1:14:47

more about all the amazing breweries

1:14:49

of PDX while you are queuing up for

1:14:51

security plus onboarding flights, and

1:14:54

even hanging out at baggage claim.

1:14:57

I will also have links to the breweries that Andre

1:14:59

singled out specifically for the distillers

1:15:02

distinguished palette . Maggie

1:15:04

Campbell was so gracious with her time

1:15:06

and information about the ethos of ACSA

1:15:09

judging program. She did a tremendous

1:15:11

job leading a group of more than 30

1:15:13

expert judges to evaluate more than

1:15:15

500 entries at Cardinal

1:15:18

spirits in Bloomington, Indiana in

1:15:20

October of 2019.

1:15:22

The judging categories include vodka

1:15:25

and grain spirits, gin, Brandy,

1:15:27

rum, whiskey, specialty spirits

1:15:29

and new this year ready to drink

1:15:31

cocktails. I am excited to

1:15:33

see who won all of the different categories

1:15:36

this year, but especially that RTD

1:15:38

category, and I hope they have some samples.

1:15:42

ACSA judging awards were scheduled

1:15:44

to be announced March 30th at the

1:15:46

annual awards gala, and I'm going

1:15:48

to have to report back if those will be released

1:15:51

ahead of a rescheduled convention,

1:15:53

or if they will be released as

1:15:56

scheduled. Either way that

1:15:58

turns out fingers crossed for everybody

1:16:00

that entered the spirits for the competitions

1:16:03

this year. And thanks for Maggie

1:16:05

for being on the show ahead of the convention.

1:16:08

Well that is all we have for today.

1:16:11

Stay safe and healthy out there

1:16:13

and remember, wash your hands

1:16:16

early and often

1:16:17

The Distilling Craft podcast is brought

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to in part by our great sponsors "Fermentis". The

1:16:22

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100 years. Contact our sales

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and products for distilling your next great

1:16:36

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1:16:38

to find a distributor visit www.fermentis.com.

1:16:46

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't

1:16:49

mention that a giant thank you goes out

1:16:51

to YOU for downloading

1:16:53

and listening to this episode of our

1:16:55

podcast. Don't forget to like,

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share, subscribe, even if

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you want more information about

1:17:07

this show, go to the show

1:17:09

notes on our website,

1:17:12

www.dalkita.com/shownotes where we will have

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links to the people, places and

1:17:16

things mentioned today. There is even a

1:17:19

real live transcript of the

1:17:21

show to share with all your friends and

1:17:23

you can post a short comment for our

1:17:25

team to obsess over dissect, and even infer your

1:17:28

tone and judge your grammar. Our theme

1:17:30

music was composed by Jason Shaw

1:17:32

and is used under creative comments,

1:17:34

attribution 3.0 license. The final shout out

1:17:37

goes to the man

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that puts all of this together, our sound editor, Daniel

1:17:41

Phillips of zero crossing productions. Until

1:17:44

next time, seriously guys stay safe

1:17:46

out there. I'm Colleen Moore from

1:17:48

Dalkita, and this has been the

1:17:50

Distilling Craft podcast.

1:17:54

Dalkita is committed to getting intelligent and quality

1:17:57

design solutions out of the Craft Distilling Industry.

1:17:59

Check them out at their website: www.dalkita . com . Until

1:18:05

next time, this has

1:18:07

been Distilling Craft. Cheers!!