0:00

Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is

0:02

the Distraction Pieces Podcast, episode

0:04

556. I'm

0:08

joined this week by Gareth Edwards, the

0:10

wonderful Gareth Edwards. I'm so excited about

0:12

this one. You know I nerd out

0:14

when I get directors on.

0:16

I only choose directors

0:19

I absolutely adore. Gareth

0:21

is responsible for Rogue One,

0:24

which is astounding, the

0:26

creator, which was a film

0:29

last year that I absolutely adored and

0:31

I'm looking forward to re-watching at home

0:33

now it's on Disney Plus. And

0:36

the dude just knows his shit.

0:38

He was really good to talk to.

0:40

We've got a few mutual friends and

0:42

I've got two questions from two mutual

0:44

friends, but they had

0:47

spoken highly of Gareth and said that this

0:49

would be a fun

0:51

and enjoyable conversation and they were

0:53

right. It certainly was, so we

0:55

may as well get on

0:58

with it. Before we do,

1:00

obviously head to speechdevelopmentrecords.com to

1:02

support the podcast and look

1:04

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1:07

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1:09

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1:11

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engage, interact, become part of the gang, become

1:34

part of the elite crew. Without further

1:36

ado, let's get on with the podcast.

1:38

This is the Distraction Pieces Podcast episode

1:40

556 with Gareth Edwards. We

2:07

are recording. I'm here today

2:10

with writer director cinematographer

2:13

VFX magician, Gareth

2:15

Edwards. How are you, man? And I do

2:17

catering as well. You do catering as well.

2:19

Yeah, the money's right. What

2:22

kind of catering are you offering? Have you

2:25

got good vegan options for everyone? What's the

2:27

deal? I've got a lot

2:29

of sausage rolls from Greg's on the way

2:31

to work, but I think they

2:33

do vegetarian options. How exciting is

2:35

it on set when you have a day

2:38

where they treat

2:40

everyone to something that isn't the regular catering? No matter

2:42

how good the catering is, I was on a

2:44

set once and they got an ice cream van in

2:46

and everyone, it was worse than a school playground.

2:48

Everyone was just like, there's an

2:50

ice cream van. Yeah, well, I'm really bad.

2:52

I'm like a big kid when it comes

2:54

to eating away from home. And

2:57

I get really fussy. And so on Star Wars, they

2:59

would get me like I was going to get food

3:01

and it was a bit colder. It wasn't something I liked.

3:03

I just didn't eat it. And they learned this pretty

3:05

quick. And so they made me every single day for

3:07

about six months a sausage bag with

3:10

ketchup. I had it every day without fail. It became

3:12

kind of like a comedy moment when it was brought

3:14

on set for me to eat. Here it is. That's

3:17

perfection. Well, you got to be eating right,

3:19

particularly when you're someone who takes on so

3:22

many, wears so many hacks on

3:24

a production at times. You need to be making

3:26

sure you're fueling your brain, right? Surely. I guess

3:28

that is a false economy, isn't it? Not to

3:30

stop for a bit of food. Yeah,

3:32

I used to have it in my music

3:35

days or music video days, I wouldn't

3:37

be able to eat until we wrapped.

3:40

It was really bad. And I brought that

3:42

into to film and TV for

3:44

a while. And I've managed to snap out of

3:46

it because yeah, it is a false

3:49

economy. If you're just plowing through

3:51

and exhausted and your brain isn't firing

3:53

properly. It's a very good way to lose weight.

3:55

Like during the shoot, you lose loads and loads

3:57

of weight without trying. And then during the edit,

3:59

you put it on and you end up looking

4:01

like you're six months pregnant. Yeah,

4:04

yeah. As you say,

4:06

it's the definition of a false

4:08

economy. There's loads I want to

4:11

talk to you about. The creator blew me

4:14

away. Rogue One is maybe my favorite Star

4:16

Wars film of all time. Monsters was astounding.

4:18

But let's start kind of

4:20

predictably at the beginning. Despite

4:24

having pretty much as Welsh a name as you

4:26

can get, you grew up in the West Midlands,

4:28

right? Yeah, all my family's

4:30

Welsh. But my dad moved

4:32

to the Midlands when just before

4:34

I was born to do start doing

4:36

a job in as a systems analyst

4:39

in computers. Right. Yeah, it didn't

4:41

make any sense to me there. But he did

4:43

that. And he but he was a massive rugby

4:45

fan. And I think I was named after Gareth Edwards

4:47

in the hope that I would become this super,

4:50

you know, elite athlete and play

4:52

for Wales. And it never happened. I was quite

4:54

geeky with my sensibilities. And so I felt like

4:56

a bit of a black sheep of the family

4:58

because every all my cousins and things like that

5:00

they all are into would be and then but

5:02

the one thing we did have in common just

5:05

to turn this into a therapy session was was

5:07

that, you know, we it was those

5:10

days where we had a beat a max player and

5:12

we'd go down the video store. And so the one

5:14

thing we would do together is we would go and

5:16

rent a film and I would be allowed one so I

5:19

get something you know that I liked and then he would

5:21

get something you know, quite mature that he liked. And

5:23

because I like watching films so much when mine finished,

5:25

I was allowed to watch his if I wanted to.

5:27

And so I would. Yeah. And then he would explain

5:29

at the beginning of each of the films like why

5:31

this was special, you know, so like if you watch

5:33

like say, Steve McQueen's bullet or something he would he

5:35

would explain and set up like no one had done

5:37

a car chase like this in a movie ever and,

5:40

and why this was all a big deal and and

5:42

then I'd sit and watch it and it I never

5:44

thought his films were better than the ones I would

5:46

get. You know what I mean? I still felt like

5:48

Empire Strikes Back was better than the good, the bad

5:50

and the ugly. But I think it

5:53

did definitely open my mind to

5:55

the idea that filmmaking is a

5:57

legitimate career that your parents would

5:59

support. So yeah, I

6:01

love that at a young age. I think

6:03

it's so good to be being taken

6:06

through again Some people sit there and say

6:08

you should be able to put a film

6:10

on and enjoy it or not enjoy it

6:12

But I think it's a valid thing at

6:14

point to see the history Like

6:17

if someone was the first to be doing

6:19

this always members are watching again

6:21

in my touring days Watching

6:24

Grandmaster flash DJ once

6:27

he was on a festival with us in Japan

6:30

and I remember thinking it's alright I've seen

6:32

better DJs and then kind of slap myself

6:35

again No But all the better

6:37

DJs learn what they do from Grandmaster

6:39

flash So while I might not be

6:41

being blown away by these particular choices,

6:43

he was the first one to do that So it's

6:45

important and you need to yeah Respect

6:48

and appreciate that. Yeah, I find as you get

6:50

older you appreciate things more like when I was

6:52

young But you obviously go to film school and

6:54

they'll try to show you these films that were

6:57

really significant in changing cinema And like, you know,

6:59

you sit and watch Citizen Kane and I

7:01

you know I think if anyone's honest you sit and watch that movie

7:04

and you go it's okay You know mean and you move on and

7:06

get on with your life, you know think about it too much But

7:09

then what happens is over time you go That

7:11

was the first film ever to really do

7:13

camera movement the way it happened It was

7:15

like it was actually the first film that

7:18

felt really really like so much attention to

7:20

the directing of it You know and the

7:22

cinematography and the way the story is told visually

7:25

More than any other at the time and that's why

7:27

it blew everyone away back then But we just take

7:29

that for granted like that becomes the vocabulary of the

7:31

next bunch of films Yeah, and

7:34

like even the French New Wave, you know,

7:36

you get you start watching that and going

7:38

I don't get it Like why why do

7:40

people care about these films? They're like bad

7:42

versions of the really good films we have

7:44

now and then you have to rewind

7:46

time and go wait a minute I jumped cut never

7:48

existed like this, you know me like a freeze-frame Like

7:51

it was so rebellious and all

7:54

that stuff that's just absolutely normal now in

7:56

TV and film They invented

7:58

it all and so it's when you I

8:00

think you have to

8:02

watch it through the eyes of

8:05

that era to really appreciate why

8:07

it's important. How good are

8:09

you at doing that? Because I was watching an

8:12

early Gerard Deppadoo film recently, I can't think

8:14

of the name of it. And

8:16

it was astounding, but you had

8:18

to watch it through the eyes

8:20

of the era because there was

8:22

a lot that went on in

8:24

it that is completely unacceptable and

8:26

not positive in modern society. But

8:31

it was a weird watch watching now because

8:33

there was a lot that I'm like, well,

8:35

I wouldn't personally make this film now, but

8:38

the energy of it and the excitement of

8:40

it from the time is palpable and it

8:42

comes through. Yeah, there are some

8:44

films that still punch through in their own way,

8:46

like irrelevant of the time that were made. So at

8:48

school, we had to pick up, you know, there's one

8:51

of these things, we have to do a book review

8:53

and I'd never seen 2001. And

8:56

so I just picked the book 2001 and

8:58

started reading it and it blew me away.

9:00

It was like this perfect science fiction story.

9:03

And I realized as I was turning every page,

9:05

I think I'm reading the best science fiction book

9:07

ever written. I'll never have this

9:10

moment again. And I pictured it very Spielbergian,

9:12

you know, I mean, like very much like close

9:14

encounters as I was reading in terms of the visuals

9:16

and the storytelling. And then

9:18

I watched I went and rented Kubrick's

9:20

2001, obviously a masterpiece. But when I

9:22

hit play as a 15 year

9:25

old, I was slightly bored and slightly like,

9:27

oh, this is a bit flat. You know,

9:29

I mean, this is not as cool as I was

9:31

thinking it would be and kind of left it alone,

9:34

went away, did something else. About a month later, I

9:36

was like in the video shop and I was like,

9:38

I'm going to rent that again and put it on

9:40

again. And then what happens is over time, it just

9:42

like infects you. And like now I

9:44

consider it one of the greatest movies ever made. If someone said it

9:46

was the best ever, I wouldn't argue with them. There's

9:49

so much boldness about that filmmaking

9:51

that hasn't gone away. And

9:53

yeah, so it's I think really truly

9:55

great films. They managed to stick around

9:58

and you don't appreciate them. You

10:00

know, I'd say that many films like that, like

10:02

Blade Runner and things, you know, as

10:04

a kid, I saw Blade Runner, it wasn't Star Wars.

10:07

It's a bit boring. It's Harrison Ford, but, you know,

10:09

he's just walking around talking a lot. And

10:12

then now it's like, there isn't a better film

10:14

in terms of world building and science fiction. It's

10:16

just the best one ever. And so, and it's

10:18

funny because you then have ideas later in life

10:21

as you're trying to make films, you're just dreaming

10:23

about making films, you go, oh, it'd be really

10:25

cool if someone did like a

10:27

cityscape sci-fi, a bit like a manga, but

10:29

it's real, so it's real. And as

10:32

you start doing that, you go, one day you come across

10:34

Blade Runner again and go, oh, you idiot. That's what you

10:36

saw when you were that kid. And

10:38

you realize, oh my God, why was I so blind?

10:41

And so I think the best stuff, someone

10:43

told me, and it was one, it's really nice advice to

10:45

give me once they said that the

10:47

lightest element isn't helium or whatever it's

10:49

talent, and it always floats to the

10:52

top. You can't stop it. And I

10:54

think these great films, no matter what

10:56

keeps them down, someone will spot it one

10:58

day and recommend it to two people. And those two

11:00

people will recommend it to another four. And

11:02

it will just find its way to the top again. It might take

11:05

50 years, like

11:07

it's a wonderful life or something, but

11:09

it'll do it eventually. Aidan McCullen So

11:11

was it mainly sci-fi that was appealing

11:13

to you as a kid? Were

11:15

they the main films that you were choosing when you

11:17

were choosing a film? Or was there a variation? Paul

11:20

Yeah, I mean, it's probably the dominant

11:22

theme. My dad would make me watch

11:25

all sorts of things, obviously. But I

11:27

think science fiction would have high score if he

11:29

looked at my video collection and my shelf when I

11:31

was younger. And I don't know why that is. What

11:33

I sort of do, I think stories

11:36

are sort of, they're not true. You know

11:38

what I mean? They're kind of made up

11:40

and condensed. They're kind of really their metaphors

11:42

for something that is true. They're

11:44

not literally saying something.

11:47

They're kind of like an

11:49

analogy for something that's true to life.

11:52

And if you're going to make sure up and have a metaphor, you

11:54

might as well go all the way and

11:56

go into science fiction or fantasy where you can

11:58

really make it up. And weirdly, science fiction, I

12:00

think, and fantasy or whatever, genre

12:03

films, they sneak into the radar. Like

12:05

they feel like pure entertainment, but

12:07

a really good one will have something to

12:09

say, and you won't even notice it's being

12:11

said, but it'll, you'll carry it with you,

12:13

you know, through life and it'll pop up

12:15

now and again. And for me, I think

12:18

again, bringing my parents into it, is we

12:20

were on holiday when I was about 11,

12:23

we were really lucky, we saved up and went

12:25

to America, I was wanting to go, and we

12:27

were in Arizona, and we were having to find

12:30

a hotel, we weren't gonna make it to where

12:32

we wanted to go in time, and it was

12:34

getting dark and we pulled into this little town

12:36

and there was classic motel sign, you know, something

12:38

out of sight or whatever, and we

12:40

pull in and they had this one room,

12:42

we all had to share it, you know, so I had

12:44

to sleep with my mom and dad, and we turned the

12:46

telly on, it was one of those old TVs that you clicked

12:48

up, you know, to change channels, it clicks around, and it

12:51

just so happens, as we clicked it

12:53

on, the Twilight Zone was starting, the black and

12:56

white Twilight Zones, and I'd never seen one, and

12:58

I was so tired, I had jet lag, I

13:00

tried to stay up and watch it, and

13:02

I fell asleep for the twist ending, and for

13:04

the next, next day as we drove to like,

13:06

the Grand Canyon, my dad spent like, two hours

13:08

of the car journey, telling me,

13:11

I blow by blow account of this Twilight

13:13

Zone episode, and then some other ones that

13:15

I'd never seen, and I was like, oh

13:17

my God, this sounds amazing, and so I

13:19

ended up recording every single Twilight Zone that

13:21

had been made, which was a funny little

13:23

story, in that it was on the Bravo,

13:25

do you remember that channel, so

13:27

it was on Bravo at 11.30 at night, and

13:30

at 12, Bravo would become the adult channel,

13:34

and obviously we didn't pay for that, and

13:36

so it'd be scrambled, but all the audio

13:38

would be perfect, right, so you'd hear

13:40

all the grunts and the 70s funk music, or

13:45

whatever, and so I had all these,

13:47

my dad would record all these episodes for me, and

13:50

then send them to me at university, and

13:52

when I started university, I was in halls of residence, and I

13:54

was feeling a bit homesick, so I put one on, and

13:57

it was blasting away, and I fell asleep, woke up about

13:59

2 a.m., And there was just this porn

14:01

music and porn sex sounds just

14:03

blasting out of my room, you

14:06

know, with this scrambled image. And I had to quickly turn

14:08

it down. And it was one of

14:10

those things where the next day I was really torn like, do

14:12

I go up to people and say, did you hear a porno

14:14

playing that snipe from my room? Because honestly, what it is, is

14:17

the Twilight Zone is on Bravo at 11 30pm. And

14:20

I see you just take the hit. And so

14:22

I didn't say anything. And I was just like,

14:24

remotely embarrassed. And I wonder who heard, I wonder

14:26

who heard and who made note. If

14:29

they judged or respected more from off the

14:31

bat. Yeah. He's very open about it. He's

14:34

not holding it. The confidence is having it

14:36

on really loud. Just blasted out. Yeah, what?

14:39

I enjoy it. I enjoy 70s pornography. What's everyone's

14:41

problem? So you need the the route into filmmaking

14:43

then? Because

14:49

it seems, again, it's mind blowing

14:51

to me how you get from

14:54

a kid in the West Midlands

14:56

to being writer, director, cinematographer and

14:58

visual effects on monster on

15:01

monsters. So what was that that that

15:03

journey? And how did you

15:05

get to take on so many roles? Well, basically,

15:08

yeah, I had the same feeling, which is I

15:10

don't know how on earth you do this.

15:12

This is probably impossible. And I'm

15:15

just deluded. And so like you

15:17

do things like, you know, there's very little it was

15:19

before the internet. And there's so little information. So

15:22

I would grab any book about Steven Spielberg

15:24

or George Lucas or Coppola or someone and

15:27

read it to see what they did. And

15:29

what they all seem to do is they would go to film

15:31

school, make a short film and then show it to someone in

15:33

Hollywood and get off of the directing gig. And I was like,

15:36

well, there you go. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah. And

15:39

yeah, so I went to film school, made short

15:41

films, showed it, sent it to people in Hollywood

15:43

and got this really polite rejection letter. And

15:46

it was like, oh, shit. So that point was

15:48

like, oh, my God, I have to just rethink

15:50

everything. And I was lucky

15:53

in the sense that my flatmate at uni, he

15:55

was studying this brand new thing called computer animation.

15:57

And it was it was when Jurassic Park just

15:59

came. came out in the cinema and it was clearly

16:01

the future of filmmaking. And so

16:04

I went back to the Midlands, I lived with

16:06

my family and I bought, I got into debt

16:08

basically on the credit cards and got a computer

16:11

and started learning, using

16:13

pirate software and just learning how to

16:16

do like animation very badly. And

16:18

then I would do little testing. So I'd film

16:20

with my dad's video camera, like in the driveway

16:22

of the house and put robots in. Or

16:25

I had like dinosaurs in my bedroom and silly things like

16:27

that. And they weren't great, but they were okay. And

16:30

then I would go for job interviews in London and I'd

16:32

have all my directing, like my shorts, done

16:34

at film school and places. And then at

16:37

the end I just tagged on these like

16:39

the effects shots, these robots and things. And

16:42

the interview would go okay. And then suddenly at the end

16:44

they would see these robots and go, what is this?

16:46

And you'd say, oh, that's, it's just something I'm experimenting with

16:48

at home. What do you mean? Well, you

16:50

know, just on my home computer, you can do this on a home computer, you know,

16:52

and this was like 96. And

16:55

they're like, yeah, yeah, just windows 95. And they're

16:58

no, no, no, but we're paying millions of dollars to do

17:00

this down the road. So how, how come you

17:02

can do this on a PC? And I was like, yeah, it's from PC

17:04

world. And they couldn't wrap their

17:06

head around it. And so I ended up getting job offers

17:08

like, would you come do this for us? And

17:11

I just got way more job offers doing visual

17:13

effects than I did anything to do with directing.

17:15

And so I sort of wasted the next 10

17:17

years, like where it felt that way, 10, 15

17:19

years doing visual effects. And I was

17:21

always thinking in the next six months, I'm going to quit

17:24

my job. I'm going to stop all this. I'm going to

17:26

go make a film. And it just every

17:28

six months, there was another excuse I was making

17:30

in my head not to do it. Because, you

17:32

know, obviously if you do it and it's shit,

17:34

or it doesn't work, you have to admit to

17:36

yourself that you've sort of been lying your whole

17:38

life, you know, about what and

17:41

so I, I was putting it off and off. And

17:43

then eventually when I play that game of looking on

17:45

IMDB, which I wouldn't advise to anyone where you just

17:47

look at your heroes and how old they were when

17:49

they made their first film. And

17:51

slowly one by one, I was passing everybody,

17:54

like, yeah, getting older and older. And I

17:56

was like, Oh my God. And then but

17:58

thank God for Ridley Scott, because I think he was. when

18:00

he made his first film or something around there.

18:02

And so I got to 35 and I'd

18:04

say the fear of, the day

18:07

the fear of never having tried and

18:09

being an old man, knowing I never give it a

18:12

go was worse than the

18:14

fear of learning I'm deluded

18:16

and I can't do it. And

18:18

on that day, I just stopped and pulled

18:20

up all the people I did the effects for

18:22

and said I'm not doing anymore, sorry, and

18:24

I'm gonna try and make a film. And that

18:27

makes it sound far more simpler than it

18:29

was, but yeah, it was just sort

18:31

of leaping off a cliff at some point. I love it

18:33

and it's a huge choice.

18:35

Now, I think there

18:37

really is something beautiful

18:40

in particularly in sci-fi when

18:42

directors are coming from

18:44

that world, from the literal world

18:46

building kind of side

18:48

of it. And I think of people like Gavin

18:51

Rothery when he did

18:53

archive, but having done the visual effects and

18:56

that on things like Moon and

18:58

Kibtavaras with the kitchen on Netflix recently,

19:00

I think there's something beautiful there when

19:03

people have just almost

19:05

taught themselves and figured

19:07

it all out. There's, I don't know, there's a

19:10

certain truth to it. And

19:12

that comes across in the creator. And I wanna

19:14

jump forward to the creator now because I wanna

19:17

make sure we get to talk about that. I

19:19

loved it. I saw it in the cinema, in

19:22

the electric at Portobello Road where

19:24

the front row is like beds. So

19:27

you lay down and watch it, which really

19:29

kind of added to like scale is something

19:31

I wanna talk to you about because

19:33

I think it's something you're a master of.

19:35

But I'm just really glad

19:37

it's finding, it's coming to a big

19:40

audience with Disney Plus and

19:42

kind of opening up there. Is that

19:44

exciting for you? It's

19:46

going onto a platform where all

19:49

the more people can find it and stumble upon

19:51

it. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, it's like, that's

19:53

all you really want as a filmmaker is people

19:55

to see what you've done, even if they hate

19:57

it. You wanna give them

19:59

a charm. to hate your work. That's kind of...

20:01

Yeah, I want all people to hate me. You know what

20:03

I mean? Not just a few. And

20:06

so, yeah, no, it's a really... You

20:08

do question yourself when you make a

20:10

film. You get to... Depending on the

20:12

outcome, because you can't control the outcome

20:14

of a movie, other than, like,

20:17

you know, how you try your damn disc to make

20:19

the best film you possibly can. And then what happens

20:21

to it the second you finish, it's totally out of

20:23

your hands and it just becomes like... Like, we had

20:25

the actors strike, you know, when that film got released.

20:28

The actors couldn't do any interviews, you know. You

20:30

know, they couldn't go on those chat shows or

20:33

do magazines or anything. And

20:35

there was no way of predicting that that was going to happen back

20:37

when we, you know, picked the release

20:39

date and things like that. And

20:41

so, yeah, it's like... I always think...

20:43

I used to work in this cash

20:45

and carry in Nuneaton and

20:47

it had this poster up that was like

20:50

a triangle. And it said, fast,

20:53

good, cheap in each corner. Pick

20:55

two, right? Like, you can't have

20:58

all three. And I feel

21:00

like with filmmaking, there's like maybe like an

21:02

octagon version of that. Yeah. Where you

21:04

can have this, this good thing, this good thing,

21:06

this good thing, but you can't have all of

21:08

them. There's always something that you're going to sacrifice.

21:10

And the thing that you would take over any

21:12

of the others is that people like it, you

21:15

know. And so, if that's

21:17

how it all plays out, that eventually,

21:20

anybody who's seen the film, I just assume nobody's

21:22

seen anything I've ever done. And

21:24

so, anyone who says something nice to you,

21:26

also, I'm that kind of person, you know,

21:28

when you bump into someone famous or slightly,

21:30

you know, that you like for some reason,

21:33

whatever I'm saying that's nice to them, it goes

21:35

up times three. You know, it makes them just

21:37

sort of so like, oh my God, it's so

21:39

insane. You know, you see, you blabber a bit.

21:41

Yeah. And so, anyone says anything

21:43

nice to me, I turn it down by three

21:45

times the amount. I do exactly the same. Even

21:48

if someone says something really nice, by

21:50

the time I walk away, I think they

21:52

thought it wasn't shit, which I'll take, you

21:54

know what I mean? Yeah. And so, yeah,

21:56

it's on, and what's great is it was

21:58

going on Hulu, and Hulu is now, part of Disney Plus.

22:01

So it's got an even bigger audience. I

22:03

would say I wouldn't, you don't really know,

22:05

you know, what the scenario is, but every

22:07

day there's been an email of someone random

22:10

saying they just saw it and saying something

22:12

nice. And that's been really

22:14

heartwarming. Like that's been, because you do all this

22:16

stuff and it's really hard making a film. And

22:18

you do at the end go, why are you doing

22:21

this? Like, what is it you're trying to achieve? Like,

22:23

what is it you want at the end? That way

22:25

you'll turn around and go, oh, that was worth it.

22:27

And I think I've decided that it's having someone that

22:29

you respect say they liked it. It's kind of

22:32

like the best reward. Yeah. It

22:34

seems. I completely agree. I've

22:36

got two or three people who are

22:38

friends of mine, but I respect massively

22:40

that whenever I'm writing or working on

22:42

scripts, or anything, part of me is

22:44

thinking, what would

22:46

Brett think of this? Or what would he think

22:48

of? And things like that. And it's like, okay,

22:51

okay, this is good. This is like, you

22:53

want to have that extra motivation

22:55

to impress those whose

22:57

art you respect. It's funny. There's Sir James

23:00

Klein, who's the designer on the film, the

23:02

production designer. We grew up, has a lot of peers

23:04

that he grew up with. And to me, I used

23:06

to buy all their DVDs and I always try and

23:08

learn how to paint based on these people. And one

23:10

of them is called Ryan Church. And

23:13

he did all the Star Wars films, the pre-cause

23:15

and stuff like that. And so when

23:17

we would design stuff, we would design it and

23:20

go, and we always were like, our goal was

23:22

like, but would this make Ryan jealous? You know

23:24

what I mean? And it's like, and it'd be

23:26

like, nah, he wouldn't be jealous. I mean, keep

23:28

going until we felt like Ryan would be jealous

23:30

of this. And our secret goal was that one

23:32

day he would email James and say

23:34

something like that after he saw the film.

23:37

I love it. So yeah, it is a

23:39

motivation. It's like what people you, it's

23:41

heartbreaking if someone you really highly regard didn't

23:44

like it. If you know what I mean?

23:46

Yeah. And you can tell when that

23:48

happens sometimes, if you ever got to talk to someone,

23:50

you can tell when someone's lying. You

23:53

don't say anything, obviously, but you can go away going,

23:55

oh shit, I wish that had, I wish I hadn't

23:57

met them. Yeah. I wish I didn't know. Yeah. rather

24:00

have kept that one a mystery. What

24:02

made you create the creator as

24:04

such? Why was this the story you wanted

24:06

to tell? Yeah, what was the

24:08

starting point, I guess? There were a

24:10

few combinations of things. I've guess, as

24:12

a kid growing up, there's a bunch of films

24:14

I always wanted to make. This was not one

24:16

of them, actually. And so every time you finish

24:18

a movie, you go, okay, now I guess I'm

24:20

going to pull off that shelf in

24:23

my mind, one of those films I've always wanted to

24:25

do. And then something else comes along and takes you

24:28

by surprise. And I guess I was

24:30

looking for two things, mainly. One was the

24:32

Holy Trinity of science fiction. There's like three

24:35

types of movies you can make. One of

24:37

them is space. The other one is like

24:39

monsters or aliens. And the other one is

24:42

robots. And I've done the other two. And so

24:44

like, my brain was sort of going, Come on,

24:46

do a robot movie. And it's really

24:48

hard to do a robot movie because you have

24:51

to make a bunch of robots. And so you

24:53

can't do it cheaply. It's not like, you know,

24:55

you can hide the monster. You have

24:57

to see it all the time. And so it's going to get

24:59

expensive. And so I had to figure out the other

25:01

thing I wanted to do is I had these

25:03

massive experiences doing two big blockbusters in Hollywood, or

25:05

whatever you want to call that. And

25:08

then and essentially, my first movie

25:10

was this highly creative experience that

25:12

I sort of really enjoyed. I

25:14

had no money at all. And

25:16

basically, if you write the pros

25:18

and cons of having no money, when

25:20

you get to have $200 million, you just

25:22

swap them over. And everything that was really easy becomes

25:24

really hard. And everything that was really hard becomes really

25:27

easy. And so the whole time

25:29

I was doing those bigger films, I just was going

25:31

there's got to be a another scenario that

25:33

where you get all the pros of having

25:35

lots of money, and all the pros of

25:37

having no money at all. And it's not

25:40

as simple as just doing a mid budget

25:42

level film, because you can end up in

25:44

a situation where you've got the ambition, you're

25:46

trying to be a blockbuster, but

25:48

you can't. So you look really rubbish.

25:51

Yeah. And you're trying to be creative and

25:54

artistic, like an indie gorilla film, but you're

25:56

not allowed to because there's so much money

25:58

riding on this. Yeah. trying

26:00

to find that sweet spot became quite

26:03

a thought process. And the simplest way

26:05

we pitched it to the studio was

26:07

that on a normal movie, you say,

26:09

so you've got 100 units of money,

26:12

they take 10 units and they put it in

26:15

the bank and say, that's in case something goes

26:17

wrong. That's like a safety net, like an insurance

26:19

policy, and go off and make the film. And

26:22

I said, could we take that 10 units that you

26:24

normally put in the bank? And could we go make

26:26

the move with that and then have the 90 units

26:30

left to do all the visual effects afterwards?

26:32

And it's not quite how that played out.

26:35

That's a really simplistic approach to it because

26:37

we had the pandemic and everything, but that

26:39

was the goal. And everyone saw the sense

26:41

in that. Everyone was like, yeah, why doesn't

26:43

everyone kind of do that? But it was

26:45

improving. So we had to sort of trick

26:47

them into it a little bit. So we

26:50

did this big pitch and presentation and

26:52

I did all this artwork with my

26:54

favorite artists and went in and I

26:56

wrote screenplay and I went in and

26:58

did, I hate pitching films. I hate

27:00

it. I'm not a car salesman. I

27:02

just end up being very British about

27:04

it. You

27:07

know what I mean? It's really hard

27:09

to sort of talk about

27:12

something, why it's amazing and should be

27:14

made. You have this

27:16

sort of more

27:18

normal conversation where I'm sharing all this

27:20

stuff and explaining why I'd like to

27:23

do it. And they were like, great,

27:25

let's go. They basically were in. But people say that

27:27

and two years, three years go by, you never make

27:29

the film. And so I was like,

27:31

look, can we just go on a location scout? Could you just

27:33

give us a little bit of money? And me and

27:35

Jim, who's the producer who I made

27:37

monsters with, could we just

27:39

go to a few countries and just try and

27:42

find locations? And they can't

27:44

say no to that because it's so little money.

27:46

It's like basically me and Jim having a romantic

27:48

holiday. And so we snuck, we didn't

27:50

tell them, but we took a camera with us and

27:53

it was, and it had like a 1970s, you

27:55

know, anamorphic lens and it was, and

27:57

I shot what you might call.

28:00

you know, art house nonsense. But

28:02

I shot a bunch of imagery

28:04

of these different places and I'd

28:06

shoot like a monk going and

28:08

praying in a temple that

28:10

we just found in Cambodia when we were in

28:12

like Angkor Wat, you know, and didn't

28:15

control any of it, just that it'll happen. And

28:17

then we changed. Then I went with a

28:19

Begginbolt ILM and said, could you prove this

28:22

theory out? And could you turn them into

28:24

a robot? And could we add sci-fi to

28:26

the back of these other buildings in paddy

28:28

fields? And they did it all, like

28:30

we did it really cheap and quick. And I think

28:32

everybody knew the amount of money they had spent. It

28:34

was like, wait a minute. So if that 10 minute

28:36

thing cost us a hundred grand, say, then that means

28:38

we can make this movie for very little. And we

28:41

didn't in the end, we made it for a lot

28:43

of money. But it's what got

28:45

the ball rolling. But still quite a little

28:47

amount of money for things of that scale

28:50

and that size, I guess. So it does have that.

28:52

Again, it was a really interesting one because I can't

28:55

think of a film that was

28:57

that big, like visually and

28:59

concept and everything, that I heard so many

29:02

people word of mouth

29:04

recommending. Like I always don't. When

29:07

I'm pitching stuff, it's always little indie

29:09

things. And my argument is always people

29:12

don't word of mouth about the new

29:15

Sylvester Sloan film, for example. Loads of people

29:17

are going to see it, or the new

29:19

Fast and the Furious. People are going to

29:21

see it because it's huge. But the ones

29:23

that you see people raving about and using

29:25

that free marketing are kind of indie films

29:28

and stuff that really hits you and you

29:30

really connect with and you want to

29:32

get people in the screens for. And

29:35

the creator felt like it had that. The

29:37

amount of people that before I saw it was like, you've

29:39

got to go and see it. You've got to see it

29:42

in the cinema. You've got to, yeah, go

29:44

and witness. So it did somehow find

29:46

that sweet spot, I think. Oh, no,

29:48

that's great. Yeah, it's really

29:50

hard to know what anyone, like it

29:53

was a really difficult birth in that. So

29:55

we didn't have a premiere because of the

29:57

actors. You know, they weren't

29:59

allowed to come. And so I was like, okay, well,

30:01

I know what I'll do. I'm going to buy

30:03

50 tickets opening weekend and invite all the actors

30:05

to come. We won't tell anyone and we'll just

30:07

go and watch it together and have a big

30:09

party afterwards. And so that's what I did.

30:11

And they all came to LA. And

30:14

then that morning, as I finished my

30:16

last publicity interview, I felt a bit

30:18

funny and I did a test and I had COVID. And

30:20

I was like, oh shit. And so

30:22

that whole weekend I was in bed and

30:24

I couldn't join any of the celebrations

30:27

or anything. And

30:29

so you look online, you know what I mean? I love

30:31

like an idiot. I got on Twitter and I was like,

30:33

I got to see what people think because it's killing me.

30:36

And for every like 10 compliments,

30:38

if there's some one person hating it,

30:40

that's the bit you, that stabs you

30:42

a bit. And

30:44

so, yeah, I'm always

30:46

thinking I could do way better each

30:48

time and everything, but yeah, that

30:51

means a lot if people said that to you,

30:53

thanks. Yeah, well, speaking of

30:55

that cast, I've got

30:57

a question in, I've got two questions in from

31:00

two different mutual friends, but one of them was

31:03

in the creator. It's from Amachata

31:06

Patel, previous podcast guest

31:09

and friend. Now he sent two questions.

31:11

The first question he said was, why

31:14

are you so horrible about my mum?

31:16

But then he

31:19

improved it. And look at the wall of

31:21

text I'm about to read out to you.

31:24

So, and he specifically says, please

31:26

read verbatim. Okay, hey,

31:29

Gareth, hope you're well. You

31:31

haven't been replying to my texts. I'm guessing

31:33

your phone is playing up again. So

31:36

this seemed like the easiest way to get in

31:38

contact with you. I just wanted to ask, we

31:42

sometimes shot entire scenes in one

31:44

long uncut take. My first scene with Maddie

31:46

was one 48 minute long take.

31:49

You would roll handheld, call action, and then

31:52

we'd go until you had covered

31:54

every angle. Apart from the way it sped up

31:56

shooting and kept us in it, but so to

31:58

speak, what drew you to that process? when

32:00

we are shooting. I thought Pips

32:03

listeners would be interested in hearing about the

32:05

process from your own horse's mouth, so to

32:07

speak. Hope you will, mate. Be

32:09

great if you could get back to me about

32:11

that thing next week. It's pretty chill, just a

32:13

mate's birthday. I mean, you should totally come. I'm

32:16

only gonna be like three of, it's only gonna be

32:18

like three of us, they're cool guys, and we're gonna

32:20

get like every rad pop tart

32:22

flavor. It's gonna be amazing. I

32:25

remember you saying, when

32:27

I ran after you on set one time,

32:30

that you love competitive puzzle game evenings,

32:33

let me know what time you want me to pick

32:35

you up on Friday, because if I wait for this

32:37

to come out, it will probably be too late. Love

32:40

you. So there we go. Tell

32:42

me about that shooting process and

32:45

how you make that work. And Ummah in

32:47

general, he's a wonderful human. Yeah,

32:50

some aspects of that question are

32:52

not scientifically true. But

32:56

I'll let you guess which ones. There,

32:59

firstly, Ummah, let me just, can I say something

33:01

nice about Ummah for a second? So

33:03

Ummah played three different characters in our film.

33:06

He played two on screen that you can see

33:08

where he kind of is a clone of himself,

33:10

well not a clone, basically these AI are mass

33:13

produced. So I thought it'd be fun

33:15

to have a character that turned up more than once,

33:17

even though he might have hit his demise, you know,

33:19

things like this. There's a, I won't spoil it for

33:21

everyone, but there's a fun thing that he got to

33:23

do in the movie. And then he also plays

33:26

this robot which ended up being named after

33:28

a friend from school, Suchin

33:30

the second, so he's called second. And I

33:32

essentially, we made this movie, and I'll answer

33:34

his question in a second, but we made

33:36

this movie where we didn't always say or

33:38

know, and I didn't want to know who

33:41

was gonna be a robot, an AI, and who was

33:43

gonna be a human. Cause it's

33:46

in a society in Southeast Asia in the

33:48

future where they're fully integrated. And

33:50

what happens is when you have, it's not true of the

33:52

actors, but it's true of the background people the

33:54

extras and stuff where you say, oh yeah,

33:57

you're gonna be a robot or something like this. People

33:59

start behaving like robots. Yeah, and and

34:01

I was like no no no, you know,

34:03

no no the in our world the robots

34:05

they think they're human So they behave completely

34:07

human-like and I thought if our film had

34:09

anything to offer at all It

34:11

was that the mannerisms of the robots

34:14

Were going to be completely natural like whenever

34:16

you spend tens of thousands of dollars to

34:18

make a robot in a movie They're always

34:20

front and center and the performance is always

34:22

a little bit pushed, you know in the

34:25

mo cap and and so I

34:27

really I got More and more excited about the idea

34:29

of something more, you know, I feel not as

34:31

good as this But something more Terrence Malick

34:33

like that that happens to be a robot,

34:35

you know Where it's just completely naturalistic behavior

34:37

and I saw it's like in post That's

34:39

when we'll decide all the robots, you know

34:41

We never an ILM industrial like magic who

34:43

did the effects and along with some of

34:45

the vendors They didn't know who was gonna be

34:47

a robot either, you know I mean and they just signed up

34:50

to this whole thing of like figuring out in later, you know

34:52

based on the film and Suddenly

34:54

there was this moment where I was like

34:56

this we're making a robot movie and

34:58

I don't have a hero robot

35:00

Like I have the odd person in

35:03

the background But I don't have a

35:05

front and center great performance robot that

35:08

you really care about and I called

35:10

up I'm a cuz I was like I

35:12

really want it to be his third character

35:14

But asking an actor to sort of become

35:16

invisible and just play the like every single

35:18

thing about that performance is I'm a like

35:21

Every IDAR every little head move it they

35:23

didn't change a thing. It's all I'm his

35:25

performance But officially he obviously

35:27

his face. He doesn't look like a robot in real

35:29

life, you know And so I've

35:31

made probably the hardest call of post-production and

35:33

because I really love I'm a and so

35:36

I felt really like what's he gonna say?

35:38

He was the kindest person ever. He was

35:40

like Gareth. I could he's a filmmaker

35:42

right? He's a director He was like all that

35:44

matters is the story and the experience of watching

35:47

the film Yeah, it's such an honor to be

35:49

in this movie, you know and I loved every

35:51

aspect of it and and I 100% agree and

35:55

Support it like go do it and I knew

35:57

I wanted to cry. I was like that was

35:59

not why he was going to say. Yeah. You

36:02

know, and if he didn't have two other characters, it's

36:04

not what he would have said at all. Even

36:07

though as long as the other two are me, as long

36:09

as my face is on the other two, that's then we're

36:11

good. Yeah. And when

36:13

I, when I told him at the end of his like generous offer that I cut out the other

36:15

two, he completely went back on it. And

36:19

then, and then like, but his lawyers got in touch and we

36:21

had to put the other two back in. It's

36:23

been really, I'm so I'm glad, I'm glad he wants to

36:25

do the board puzzle. Yeah. And we're going

36:27

to put it together because it's been, it's been a

36:30

difficult few months. It's been rocky.

36:32

Yeah. But anyway, yeah,

36:34

so the 48 minute takes to name drop

36:36

for a second. And I, I've only met

36:38

like two famous people ever, but

36:41

one famous person I got to me, I

36:43

was very lucky. I was doing Godzilla and,

36:45

and it was being designed along

36:47

with a lot of other people. It was being

36:49

designed by Weta Workshop in New Zealand. So I

36:51

got to go down there. And then as a

36:53

result, Peter Jackson, let us hang out on the

36:55

set of the Hobbit. And

36:57

it was one of the greatest experiences ever

36:59

had. It was a real honor. And

37:02

I noticed when he was filming that

37:04

he never said cut. And

37:07

I asked him at some point why, and basically,

37:09

and it's something everyone experiences when they make a

37:11

film. The second you say

37:13

cut, it's like, was it called Pablo's dogs with

37:15

the whistle or something? The second you say cut,

37:17

all the crew can come in into

37:20

the shot and like makeup can do touch

37:22

ups. They can move lights. They

37:24

can change cables. They can mess with the set. And

37:26

everyone comes in and does that thing that was really

37:28

bothering them the whole time they were watching the tape.

37:31

And you look at your watch and 10 minutes

37:33

go by sometimes 20. And then you

37:35

get to do take two. And then in that

37:38

world, you get about five goes at a

37:40

set up or a shot. And then you

37:43

have to do a different scene. And it's, it's

37:45

really, really difficult way to make film, I find.

37:47

And in my first movie, it was not like

37:49

that whatsoever. You know what I mean? We could, we

37:51

had no crew. So we just ran around doing whatever

37:53

we wanted whenever we wanted. And on the big movies,

37:55

it wasn't like that. And so I took that to

37:57

heart. And basically, if you don't say cut, they can't

37:59

come in. So you just say reset

38:01

at the end and everyone goes back to their

38:03

original positions and you film, you find a different

38:05

angle and then you film it again and no

38:08

one's allowed to come in or do anything. And

38:11

also it means the actors stay in the

38:13

zone, they don't really have to like think

38:15

about anything else. If they're in an emotional

38:17

place they can just quickly stay in it

38:19

and off we go again. Because the cut

38:21

instantly makes you the actor rather than the

38:23

character. You want to know if there's any

38:25

feedback, you want to know if this was

38:27

right or that was right and you become

38:29

self-critical. Whereas yeah I love that if you

38:31

remain as the character as such then

38:33

yeah. And on top of that

38:35

they're like let's say you do a scene, you play

38:37

out a scene and like because inevitably an actor will

38:40

read you know they want to come do their homework

38:42

and come prepared so they'll read a scene

38:44

and they'll have an opinion and like I think I'd stand by the

38:46

window and then I'd walk over to the chair for that then I'd

38:48

probably do this for that bit and they'll have

38:50

their little idea and sometimes that can unfold and

38:53

it feels a bit false like a little bit

38:55

like a movie and then what happens if you

38:57

just say go again and now they're sat down

38:59

they're not by the window and the scene has

39:01

to start again and it's nothing at all like how

39:04

they pictured it because they come in

39:06

all the other actors are now in different places as

39:08

well. It breaks their

39:10

pre you know assumptions about what the scene was

39:13

going to be like and suddenly it starts to

39:15

get more real and the performances even get better

39:17

because becomes a bit more like a documentary and

39:19

I'm blissfully unaware of how long it takes to

39:21

like if someone at the end when I finally

39:24

said cut said how long do you think that

39:26

was I'd say five minutes you know what I

39:28

mean and then they go like no that was

39:30

40 minutes you know what I mean like

39:32

because you become like a little kid in the

39:34

cinema I'm watching that viewfinder as if I'm sat

39:37

in the like electric theater on a bed and

39:40

I'm just making decisions based on

39:42

that person lying down watching the

39:44

big screen and going oh you

39:46

know what would be really cool is if you if it now went

39:48

over here or it did that or they did that instead and I'm

39:51

trying not to be on location with the actors

39:53

I'm trying to be in the cinema like a

39:55

year from now and what am I thinking watching

39:57

this you know. I love that well

39:59

I mean, one of the things that jumped out to me

40:01

a lot, and I think you've done it

40:04

in all your films really,

40:06

but particularly in the

40:08

creator, it was so striking, is your

40:11

use of scale or the

40:13

eye with which you perceive

40:16

scale or allow the audience to perceive

40:18

scale. And obviously in

40:20

recent years, we've had Marvel films

40:22

and the expanding Star

40:25

Wars universe, where we get to see

40:28

so many huge and wonderful, amazing

40:30

things as visual effects have come along and

40:32

along and along. We get to see these

40:35

huge things. So

40:37

often in the creator, we

40:39

see them from a human perspective. So

40:41

we don't even see all of them.

40:43

There'll be certain robots or certain ships

40:45

or vehicles that we just see the

40:47

wheel coming in and stuff like that. And

40:50

it really just put me there. Again, I

40:52

think also it helps that it's

40:54

shooting in, you mix sci-fi

40:57

and nature rather than a lot of films

40:59

always go into big cities and it's

41:01

all very man-made. You're mixing, as you

41:03

say, the rice fields and robots and

41:06

all these other things. So where

41:09

did you come to that choice,

41:11

I guess, of how

41:13

you present these amazing

41:15

creations to the viewer? Yeah,

41:18

some people say this about the stuff I've

41:20

done, and I always find it hard to

41:22

answer because it feels like the obvious choice

41:24

half the time. But I do think that

41:27

less is more, more isn't more most of

41:29

the time. And especially in

41:32

computer graphics, what started to happen, and

41:34

this is no disrespect to anyone, but

41:36

this thing started happening called PREVIZ. And

41:40

so they basically computer animate scenes from

41:42

the film before you go shoot them.

41:44

And it helps these really complicated big

41:46

VFX movies have a plan. They

41:49

basically do a video game version of the

41:51

movie, big set pieces, and then

41:53

they break that apart and then they go shoot

41:55

all those little pieces. But because the

41:57

vocabulary of video games and a lot of the people

41:59

who- got into that making those previsits,

42:01

but from the video game world, it

42:03

started to have camera moves and shot

42:06

compositions that aren't from like classical cinema.

42:08

They're not David Lean movies. They're more

42:10

like something you see on a PlayStation.

42:12

And everyone got very excited about that

42:14

because a lot of whiz bang, you

42:16

know, and stuff to that. But then

42:18

the problem is when it becomes photo

42:20

real, there's so much fighting for your

42:22

attention. And the camera is doing things

42:24

that make actually portrays the weight of

42:26

and the scale of the audience and

42:29

the realism that I've just never

42:31

ever gone for that approach. We've had

42:34

previous, but we always like really

42:36

like sit make sure like that we cast

42:39

the previous people really well that they have

42:41

that sort of sense of filmmaking

42:43

and doing visual effects for a living. It was one of

42:46

the cheapest tricks in the book was, you

42:48

know, production value in the let's say you

42:51

have a little green screen shot or something

42:53

and like choose whatever it is, but say

42:55

it's a battle and you've got 100 people

42:58

in you literally just press control D

43:01

to duplicate and now you got 200

43:03

people press it like 10 more times. You know what

43:05

I mean? You got 1000 and

43:07

producers would go, Oh my God. You know

43:09

what I mean? Like I've just for pressing

43:11

a button 10 times. I suddenly had like

43:13

everyone's super excited and you'd get even even

43:16

more work. And so, so

43:18

like insane with scale, you just scale it up,

43:20

you know, you just turn that dial and it

43:22

gets like 10 times bigger. And

43:25

the trick is with scale and things like this is

43:27

it's like you find you have to things can't fit.

43:29

They have to go off screen. You know what I

43:31

mean? Like if it's something gets

43:33

bigger and then you move the camera

43:35

to see it again, it's not bigger

43:37

anymore. Everything's relative. And so for something

43:39

to look big, you need to have

43:41

something in there that's a size, you

43:43

know, like a person and

43:46

they're when it was growing, like when I was trying to do

43:48

visual effects of this one image I really loved by this artist

43:50

called John Harris, you will look at

43:53

this shape. It was just a cube kind of shape.

43:55

And if you said to someone how big that cube they

43:57

would say, I think it's like 200 miles.

44:00

And you go, tell me why you think that.

44:02

And there was nothing in it. There's not a

44:04

person, there's not birds, there's not anything. And

44:07

you go, why are you thinking that? And they wouldn't

44:09

be able to answer. And then I analyzed it to

44:11

death. So I'd go, I'll tell you why I think

44:13

it is. And you start going to all the reasons.

44:15

And then I would just use all those reasons in

44:17

all my work. Like whenever I was

44:19

doing a shot, I'd try and add those ideas in. For

44:21

instance, like one of them is shadows

44:24

cast by clouds. Like we know how big a

44:26

cloud is. And even if there's no cloud, you

44:28

can't see the clouds when there's light, dark,

44:30

light, dark. It tells

44:32

you that must be at least a kilometer

44:34

away. And things like

44:36

this. And so it just, all these little tricks

44:39

add to a sense of scale. And I would

44:41

wander around all the time as a kid, listen

44:43

to music. And I guess if there was a

44:45

little exercise I'd do in my brain, I

44:48

would imagine really epic things.

44:50

Like that's kind of what I aspired to

44:52

do a lot. I

44:55

didn't mean for it to become like

44:57

my main thing. Yeah,

45:00

it was just like going for a run with your mind. But

45:03

it makes perfect sense here when you

45:05

talk about how you started doing this.

45:08

Because if you're putting, you say you

45:11

need something in there for scale, right? Your

45:13

bedroom gives you good scale. It's the bedroom

45:16

that you know. So putting dinosaurs in your

45:18

bedroom or robots on your

45:20

drive and things like that, you know what the

45:23

scale is and what's going to be going off

45:25

camera and such. It also struck

45:28

me when you were talking about going to

45:30

America as a kid, because America is somewhere

45:32

that particularly if you go as a kid,

45:35

your perspective delivers everything that you've seen in

45:37

the films. It is also huge. And it

45:39

is also big. And you're looking at everything.

45:42

And it's this amazing thing. So yeah,

45:44

it feels like all of that has

45:46

come across eventually in how

45:48

you make films. So yeah, I

45:50

love it. I've got another question

45:53

from another mutual

45:55

friend. And it's about AI.

45:57

And the film, the creator, is about AI.

46:00

but it also links us over to Rogue One

46:02

because it's from Riz Ahmed. And

46:05

he's asked, what do you think the

46:07

future is for actors if we can

46:09

all be replaced with AI? Are

46:12

you excited about never having to work

46:14

with annoying actors again? And do you

46:16

think AI will replace directors too? So

46:18

big AI questions here from Riz. Ah,

46:22

I love Riz. Okay,

46:24

it's a tough question. It's not a

46:26

softball question, is it? No. Okay, let's

46:28

do it though. I think the act

46:31

number, firstly, no one knows, right? We're at this

46:33

very early stage of all this. And to try

46:35

and predict what is going to be like five,

46:37

10 years from now, we're all going to sound

46:39

like idiots if you play this back. But in

46:41

terms of replacing actors, I think there is an

46:44

issue. Do you know what I mean? Because I

46:46

think definitely models, you know what I mean? Like

46:48

that's already starting to, you can feel that one

46:50

starting to come. And you know, as video gets

46:52

better, and they can do more realistic, you know,

46:55

animation, not even animation is the word, but like

46:57

emulate behavior from footage and things like this. It's

47:00

going to be super interesting. I think that

47:02

my job is just as much under threat

47:04

as an actor. Like, I

47:07

spent, I guess, 15 years, I think

47:09

if I've got a, not

47:11

a strength, but a skill set of

47:13

any kind, the thing I

47:16

would probably think it was, was looking at

47:18

an image, and knowing maybe

47:20

what to do to make it look

47:22

a little bit of a better image.

47:24

You know, and now you don't need

47:26

that skill set, like, you can type

47:28

in a prompt, you know, on mid

47:30

journey or something. And it looks

47:33

pretty damn good. Like compositionally, lighting wise,

47:35

because it's pulling from all the great

47:37

photography, you know, that's ever been and

47:40

films that have been made. The

47:43

default setting that comes out is quite

47:45

a beautiful, nicely composed thing.

47:48

That's like hard to improve on

47:50

sometimes you go, well, that's pretty damn good,

47:52

you know, so I think I'm threatened as

47:54

much. The problem we have is that these

47:57

things have happened throughout human history, right? Like,

48:00

the invention of electricity, the car,

48:02

the internet. And it does

48:04

disrupt a lot of industries, but we get

48:07

to the side of them, and when

48:09

it's finally the dust has settled, the

48:11

people who live in that new era

48:13

wouldn't wanna go back. And so I

48:15

do think there's gonna come a day

48:17

where AI can be very, very embedded.

48:19

And like, forget film, this is a

48:21

high-class problem. Like, it's gonna massively affect

48:23

the rest of the world in even

48:25

bigger ways, but I can't, it's a

48:27

really interesting, there's a whole bunch to

48:30

talk about with this, and I'm not avoiding

48:32

it, because I think it's a fascinating subject. But

48:35

the idea, so for

48:37

instance, when we were making The Creator, about

48:40

three or four years ago, because I knew

48:42

it was about AI, I thought, you know what would be quite interesting

48:44

is to contact one of the top AI

48:47

companies to making music and see if I

48:49

could get the soundtrack to be done by AI. And

48:53

there was this really great company who were doing the

48:55

best work, he was fantastic, and I talked to them

48:57

about it, and they were really open to the idea,

48:59

and they were saying, well, the main thing you have

49:01

to start off with is, could you feed this like

49:03

10 tracks that you really like, that we can feed

49:05

into the AI and

49:08

try and generate some music? And so I did,

49:10

and I essentially gave it a bunch of

49:12

Hans Zimmer soundtracks, and what came

49:15

back was really pretty good. You know what I

49:17

mean? Like, super interesting, and like, oh my God,

49:19

that was way better than I thought it'd be.

49:21

And this is four or five years ago, so

49:23

like now it might, I'm sure it's even moved

49:25

on even more, but it was pretty

49:27

damn good. And you could describe it, you go, I think

49:29

that's like at least a seven out of 10, you know?

49:31

And then what you realize is you start to go, okay,

49:33

how do we get this to like 10 out of 10?

49:36

You know, you start to hit a brick wall

49:38

because the way the model works back then

49:40

at least, at least it feels that way

49:42

still now, is the computer or

49:44

the algorithm doesn't understand, doesn't have the taste

49:47

we have, doesn't have the emotional reaction response

49:49

that we have. And so it can't understand,

49:51

you can listen to a song, right? And

49:53

you can go, the verse is okay, but

49:56

there's this one little chord change in the chorus or

49:58

somewhere in the, in the, This one that

50:01

just makes you want to cry. It's so

50:03

beautiful and not what you're expecting in it.

50:06

The whole song, we're listening for three minutes, it's worth

50:08

it for that one little moment where you just go,

50:11

and it's like what's really hard is that

50:13

the computer has no idea that that's the

50:15

bit you love and the rest is just

50:17

generic or five out of 10 and this

50:19

bit is the 10 out of 10 thing.

50:23

So it looks and it sees a load of five out of 10s,

50:25

it's one 10 out of 10 moment and then a bunch of five out of

50:27

10s, and it goes, oh, looks

50:30

like you like five out of 10s. I'll

50:32

make a five out of 10 track. You know

50:34

what I mean? So you get this track back,

50:36

it's pretty average. So

50:38

until they figure out how to

50:40

basically give feedback and say, this

50:43

is that absolutely beautiful

50:45

or inspiring moment. So

50:48

in the end, I was really looking, I got

50:50

Hans Zimmer to do our soundtrack for the creator,

50:52

and I told him all this

50:54

story and everything, they find it funny and interesting. You

50:57

don't go to Hans Zimmer for seven out of 10, you go to him for 10

50:59

out of 10. I think the

51:01

problem we have at the moment is the

51:04

algorithm has no idea, doesn't understand what was

51:06

successful and what wasn't. It needs the feedback.

51:09

I mean, there might come a day where you

51:11

can go and say, I want to watch Jurassic

51:14

Park, but I want my mum and dad to

51:16

be the main actors in it, and I want

51:18

it to be a different ending. Give me a

51:20

different ending this time, and

51:22

it will generate something and play it in

51:24

real time or some Star

51:26

Wars, make it do

51:28

this instead or just surprise me. Show

51:31

me something that other people loved when you did

51:34

that. And I can't say that that's not

51:36

going to work. You know what I mean? You

51:38

start to get into these questions of like,

51:41

just because a human didn't generate it, does

51:43

that mean it won't be good? Like,

51:45

I'm looking out now, talking to you

51:48

out the window, and it's a beautiful

51:50

valley with a nice

51:52

sunsetty sky, and a human

51:55

didn't make that. You know, that just sort

51:57

of happened, but it doesn't affect it. It

51:59

doesn't matter because it's still a... You still

52:01

react to it. And if

52:03

I said to you, okay, put it this way. If

52:05

I said to you, all right, they solve the whole

52:08

AI music thing in that room over there. And

52:10

you look over in that room, there are people walking out

52:12

crying with a big smile on their face. And I go

52:14

in that room over there, AI has

52:16

made an album better than anything that

52:18

Beatles ever did. It's learned

52:20

from everything ever made. And it's in that room. There's some

52:22

headphones, you can listen to it. And people

52:24

are coming out crying going, that's

52:27

the most, how do I own that? That's the most beautiful thing

52:29

I've ever heard in my life. Would you wanna

52:31

go and listen to it? Or would you go,

52:33

no, that's sacrilegious. Yeah,

52:35

yeah, I'd wanna go and have a listen. I'd

52:38

wanna go and have those emotions triggered.

52:40

Yeah, and if it triggered those emotions and

52:42

it was amazing, would you never listen to

52:44

it ever? I think

52:47

maybe the next generation are gonna get over this

52:50

hurdle a lot easier than us. That

52:52

just because something's not authored 100% by

52:55

a human, it's not valid. I

52:58

think they might get past that. Like there's

53:00

all these little examples, I think in journalism,

53:03

I think in the UK, but

53:05

someone was telling me how they

53:07

banned word processing for journalists in

53:10

the union or whatever, because it felt

53:12

like cheating, like not right. And

53:16

we look at that now, like that's comical. And

53:19

so I think it's gonna evolve.

53:21

And I mean, I tell you

53:23

where it's definitely probably gonna really help is things

53:25

like, in the short term, it's things

53:27

like pickup shoots. Like say

53:29

you're in the edit and you really wish an

53:32

actor said something a bit different, or you wanted

53:34

to change the idea of a scene because it

53:36

really helped the storytelling or you got feedback and

53:38

this wasn't coming across or whatever. And

53:40

so you could basically get the actors

53:43

to say a different line using

53:45

a certain different performance or something. I think

53:47

then what's important with that is if you

53:49

do do that, you get their consent, you

53:51

know what I mean? But I think if

53:53

you said to some actors, do you wanna

53:55

come over for a week to the other

53:57

side of the world to shoot one line

53:59

against... screen or can we just

54:01

use this clip? Here's the clip. I think

54:03

a lot of them would go, oh, that's fine.

54:05

That looks real to me. It looks like I

54:07

said that. Okay, go for it. And I

54:10

think that'll become a normal thing probably sooner than

54:12

later. But I guess the crucial bit there

54:14

is the sign off. Is having

54:16

the right to sign off on it? Having

54:18

the ability to say, yeah, okay, I feel

54:20

that. Or having the choice to say, where

54:22

else have you got planned on this

54:24

week on the other side of the world with the

54:26

green screen? Are we doing other things? Is there catering?

54:29

I'll come out. Sausage rolls.

54:32

Exactly. No, 1000%. And

54:34

it's true. Like say, for instance, a film

54:36

poster right now, the actors

54:38

on the poster get consent. Like they're not. So any

54:40

poster for a movie that comes out, they get sent

54:42

to the actors and they can have

54:44

feedback. I don't like that shot. Or could I do,

54:47

could my face look more like this or whatever? And

54:49

that's like a standard thing in all contracts pretty much.

54:51

And I think it'll be, you know, so I think

54:53

it's very easy to make it a standard thing. If

54:56

that becomes a tool. Who knows? Honestly,

54:58

it does feel right now like the

55:00

giant asteroid hovering over the earth of

55:02

filmmaking. And you talk to other people

55:04

about it and you go, what do

55:06

you think? And to put

55:09

a positive spin on it, people say things like,

55:11

I think it's just going to really help us,

55:13

you know, it's going to help us as a

55:15

tool. And I'm half worried it's a bit like,

55:17

you know, working in the horse industry at the

55:19

turn of the century and saying no cars, cars

55:21

are going to be really useful because they can

55:23

help deliver hay to the stables. And you're like,

55:25

Oh man, you have no idea. Yeah, you

55:28

know, yeah, I do

55:30

somehow feel that in years to

55:32

come, they will be telling

55:35

the story of, of the

55:37

man who fed Hans Zimmer soundtracks

55:39

into the AI to get a Hans Zimmer

55:41

like soundtrack and ended up at the door

55:44

of Hans Zimmer. And that

55:46

was the only way that you could truly

55:48

get a Hans Zimmer likes the soundtrack. It's

55:50

a beautiful adage of how that all came

55:53

about. Yeah, I like the whole reason

55:55

I made this movie is when the

55:57

Robopocalypse finally comes, I'm going to be

55:59

spared. I understand them

56:01

and empathize with them. You're

56:04

part of the gang. Well, I'll wrap things

56:06

up. There's so much I wanted to get

56:08

into, but there's only a limited amount of

56:11

time. I guess I'll finish by asking what's

56:13

ahead. Obviously, we've covered

56:15

that globally with the AI apocalypse.

56:18

But what's ahead

56:20

specifically for Gareth Edwards?

56:22

What's next? Can you talk about it?

56:24

Have you got any of those

56:26

ideas that you've had on the shelf since you

56:28

were located that you're feeling now is

56:30

the time to pluck off? Okay.

56:33

Yeah. So I went to

56:36

the shelf when the film finished and I had

56:38

a little bit of space. Just like before, some

56:41

new thing came along and went, what

56:43

about this? I got really excited about

56:45

it. So I've started chipping

56:47

away at a brand new idea that

56:49

we'll see what happens. I feel like

56:51

with ideas, film ideas are

56:54

a bit like butterflies. If

56:56

you go chasing them, they just fly off. But

56:59

if you sit really still, they might come

57:01

and land right on your hand. So at this

57:03

early stage, I try not to carve out

57:06

time and force it. It just adds up.

57:08

I'm keeping a little bunch of notes on

57:10

my phone. There's something I'm excited about,

57:12

but I also want to have a little bit of

57:14

a break. I don't know.

57:16

I'm in no rush. Making a film

57:18

is all consuming and so happy to take a bit

57:20

of time off as well. That

57:23

very thing you describe in there is one

57:25

of the hardest things to describe to non

57:28

creatives as such. That for

57:31

example, at times, if

57:33

I'm spending my day sitting and playing

57:35

FIFA, it's part of the process.

57:39

I need those breaks for an idea to come.

57:41

It's not always as simple as you say of,

57:43

right, I'll take myself off to a cabin and

57:46

I'll come back with this idea

57:48

or with this script. You have

57:51

to certain amounts you have to allow to

57:53

come naturally. Yeah, it can still

57:55

feel like work or part of the process at

57:57

least. It's like I'll sit in my office

57:59

for two hours. hours just trying to

58:01

like think like solve some

58:03

problem or something about an idea. And after

58:05

two hours, I'm like, man, I'm just I'm

58:07

just wasting the day like, and so then

58:10

I'll go out and I'll go to the

58:12

grocery store or something and and just some

58:14

random thing will happen and it'll just click.

58:17

And I always describe it like as

58:19

input output. Like if all you're doing

58:21

is output, it just ends up being nothing or

58:23

rubbish. But you have to go and have experiences

58:25

you have to let your brain has to witness

58:27

things and and experience things

58:30

and then some ways I don't

58:32

obviously understand like AI, I guess

58:34

it will in a black box way, it'll like

58:37

mess up those things. It starts to try and

58:39

stop like, put them away in your brain and

58:41

store them away. And they'll land in such a

58:43

way that's like a new twist that you haven't

58:45

thought it just come out the blue in ways

58:47

you can't describe. Like, that's the other thing about

58:50

it is it's what I find fascinating about AI

58:52

is you go up to it. And I've been

58:54

looking that I've been able to talk to some

58:56

of these engineers about how it works. And they

58:58

don't know, it really is

59:00

a black box. It's kind of magic,

59:02

like our brains, it's like they can't

59:05

really control it too much. It just

59:07

sort of happens. And it's a bit like when you get an

59:09

idea and someone says, Where'd you get the idea from? And you

59:11

go, I

59:13

don't know. Yeah, I can't explain it.

59:15

It just sort of happened. And I

59:17

think ideas are a little bit like

59:19

organisms where you take two different ones

59:21

and make them merge together. Like they

59:23

have a child that's hopefully,

59:25

you know, evolved beyond what the

59:27

parents were. And so, and so you're always

59:30

I'm always probably the main thing I'm trying

59:32

to do is merge ideas, like break things

59:34

apart. If there's anything I have learned is

59:36

that the more you can shatter an idea

59:38

and mess and like, let it shatter and

59:41

then rebuild it. If you if you rebuild

59:43

it exactly as you had it, and that

59:45

says something, and if you rebuild it in

59:47

a better way, then that's good too. And

59:50

so it's like always like

59:52

trying to mutate the generic default thing that

59:54

came to you and what's the thing I'm

59:56

not supposed to do? What's the how do I

59:58

flip that out? What's the How do

1:00:00

i manage that with this random thing over here without

1:00:02

the interesting that the shit can move on or

1:00:05

hang on that i would be interested about

1:00:07

that is maybe this thing and. I

1:00:10

need to. It's really hard to find

1:00:12

originality you know i mean like i don't

1:00:15

think it's i always check the original it

1:00:17

is the ability to forget your inspiration because

1:00:20

i don't think you can have. I

1:00:22

don't you can be truly original but then if

1:00:24

you if you're not bringing something new

1:00:26

to the table than why you bother and you know

1:00:28

it's just holding this whole dilemma with the whole thing

1:00:30

that i'm getting a bit profound now. I

1:00:33

love it i love it because again i think

1:00:35

another thing that people don't realize is any

1:00:37

of those. Mmm

1:00:40

mutations or changes you

1:00:42

can always go back like i can

1:00:44

be so precious over an initial idea and i've been

1:00:46

guilty of that in the past but no here's the

1:00:49

vision. I'm gonna try these

1:00:51

things and if they don't work you can always

1:00:53

go back to the vision. I

1:00:55

thought you never know what they will spawn

1:00:57

and how it can change everything yeah i

1:00:59

definitely agree. You don't know

1:01:01

the edge into your phone off the cliff

1:01:04

yeah yeah and you got a kind of

1:01:06

just end up falling off the cliff at

1:01:08

some point. Yeah and fail you know failure

1:01:10

is probably the most more important and success

1:01:12

in terms of getting somewhere i think. I

1:01:15

mean it's the perfect note to end the

1:01:17

podcast on isn't it just. Reveling

1:01:20

in failure the importance of failure

1:01:23

yeah well i appreciate you taking the time man

1:01:25

it's been an absolute pleasure and it's flown by

1:01:28

so thank you very much. Thanks so much yeah

1:01:30

thanks so much i'm gonna have to like

1:01:32

text Riz and Amman now thank you as

1:01:34

well. You've

1:01:52

been listening to scroobius

1:01:54

pit distraction pieces god

1:01:57

i love that conversation and garif

1:01:59

great obviously. as ever another guest that

1:02:01

I hope to work with at some point down

1:02:03

the line. Always

1:02:05

the way. I've had particularly with directors,

1:02:08

had this majorly with Andrew Haig the other

1:02:10

week, that director I'm a

1:02:13

big fan of and then have an hour-long

1:02:15

conversation and go oh we could definitely work

1:02:17

well together as well. You

1:02:19

know those two things

1:02:21

aren't always one and the same. You

1:02:23

might be a big fan of someone but think you

1:02:26

wouldn't be any great addition. I

1:02:28

always remember in my music days people

1:02:30

had asked who

1:02:33

my number one person to collaborate

1:02:35

or dream collaboration would be and a lot

1:02:37

of people know that Prince is

1:02:39

my absolute favorite and

1:02:41

I'd have no particular desire to collaborate with Prince

1:02:43

because I don't think I'd add anything to what

1:02:46

Prince does. I don't think our way of

1:02:48

working, why am I talking about a collaboration

1:02:51

with a now dead person? I'm going into

1:02:53

far too much detail here. All this to

1:02:55

say I'd love to work with a regard at

1:02:57

some point. And thank

1:03:00

you to my guest

1:03:02

question submitters Riz Ahmed

1:03:04

and Ama Chadhapatel. Yeah

1:03:07

what a wonderful chat, what a wonderful bloody

1:03:09

chat. We're having a lot of them recently

1:03:11

and you know what it's not confirmed at

1:03:13

time of recording but I might have a

1:03:15

bonus episode a few later

1:03:17

in the week. It's not confirmed,

1:03:19

it's not confirmed but there's

1:03:22

a chance I'm gonna have a little bonus for you

1:03:24

so keep your eye out for that. Until

1:03:27

then or until next week indeed

1:03:29

stay safe and stay sane. Titter.

1:03:49

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