0:00

Welcome Welcome Welcome. This is

0:02

the Stretch and Pieces Podcast

0:04

episode Five Hundred and Fifty.

0:06

For those of you who know the

0:09

A my lucky number is Five. I'm

0:11

kind of obsessed with We're We're We're

0:13

with a number Five. You know the

0:15

episode Five Fifty? It's gonna be important

0:18

to me and that's why I'm joined

0:20

today by Samuel T. Heron. A Future

0:22

Islands are so excited to set this

0:24

up. We've. We've. Been going back and

0:26

forth on it for a for so

0:29

to sort out of. We recorded it

0:31

just before Christmas and it was absolute

0:33

joy, light, instant, Instantly relaxed instantly.

0:35

Someone I can talk to for

0:37

hours and hours on end. I

0:39

mentioned on last week's episode so

0:41

over on Twitch. Maybe. Of.

0:44

The Be Dolan regular podcast guest and

0:46

featured on my records is one of

0:48

five he was in the world. We

0:50

do a semi regular thing called Paper

0:52

Beach Show each other stuff on Twitch

0:55

a one the first episodes of that

0:57

was musical performances on late night Tv

0:59

shows are we just spent a couple

1:01

of hours just show in each of

1:03

us some of our favorites. A one

1:05

of my favorites was the iconic A

1:08

few Trial is one which is coming

1:10

up to it's. It's. A

1:12

least a ten year anniversary. So of

1:14

the I talked to sign up about

1:16

a bit but we talk about so

1:18

much stuff that's a small part of

1:20

what we get into He i'm worried

1:23

that amount of got Sam's bands and

1:25

nine wrong several times and let me

1:27

explain why In the introduction I mention

1:29

me to room would be Dolan and

1:31

work and would be doubted. Nava person

1:33

or tude with a worked with was

1:35

an amazing is singer cotton that Ashraf

1:38

Fox now of Attach a Fox is

1:40

banned. Old. Band was called

1:42

Future Ages. So if I'm talking

1:44

about future islands on whoa whoa. I'm worried

1:46

there might be a few times I said

1:49

future ages instead of future on his. I

1:51

don't know if there was. You're about to

1:53

listen so you let me know. right?

1:55

Might know, but either way is

1:57

an amazing conversation. I would have.

2:00

We talk about to in life

2:02

and we talk about yeah I'm

2:04

making a living out of Europe

2:06

Also to things we talk about

2:08

acting is a joy of a

2:10

conversation and you can with door

2:12

it's I even throw in a

2:14

guest question from. Scottish

2:16

faster award winning comedian and stream a

2:19

limit yeah we bought two is ever

2:21

by speech development reckless.com as where you

2:23

can bomb a much sick right white

2:25

sport the podcast with some really good

2:27

seats. The stuff over there with wow

2:30

how. Would have we may not be

2:32

for you and that's fine range. I record label

2:34

slogan is is would have we may not be

2:36

for you and that's fine and as go down

2:38

really well as. As much

2:40

as on don't jump as on have

2:42

some scarves and all sorts of good

2:44

things. Am so had their heads patron.com

2:46

forward/previous pet be going to support the

2:49

podcast for like. Dollar.

2:51

Or two a month. and as

2:53

a said Twitch.tv forward/group is papier

2:55

of whether you're catch him he

2:57

lives and have in real life

2:59

interaction and talk him. Up

3:01

a pack of full fi the chat

3:03

or you catch up on the on

3:05

the V or days. said there's so

3:07

much it's tough over there is it's

3:09

music based sets conversation based This game

3:11

in as well but there's loads this

3:13

not gaming so head over. There is

3:15

all free. This. Game

3:18

to. This will start to the

3:20

year where avid jolie she said

3:22

and a San from future Islands

3:24

Bloody Dream Guests of the Back

3:26

in the Sky This is structured

3:29

pieces podcast episode five hundred and

3:31

fifty with Samuel. see him in.

3:54

with some. You'd see have been a future

3:57

islands. How are you Man I'm doing very

3:59

well. I'm. Doing I'm a little sleepy

4:01

eyed. Just landed in Los Angeles for

4:03

the first time in a couple years.

4:05

last night a while. So yes, one

4:07

of those I was trying to rope

4:09

you into an early morning a call

4:11

from New Orleans and now it's even

4:13

earlier in Los Angeles. But of a

4:16

year I didn't even think of that.

4:18

It's a beautiful day seeing friends. And

4:20

as last night as my buddies fortieth

4:22

birthday coming up so wanted to come

4:24

out here and and be apart beautiful

4:26

as as gonna kind of ask what

4:28

what's going on of is tom a

4:30

year cause you've you've spent a year

4:33

you've been and will games all of

4:35

it because as a new record on

4:37

the way you've been touring of what

4:39

kind of point of a year to

4:41

you down toes and start to start

4:43

to relax were it's funny because I

4:45

feel like I'm relaxing all that was

4:47

it yet as we have progressed and

4:49

I've gotten slower. I'm always trying to find.

4:52

you know, find that place where I feel

4:54

comfortable within myself. I mean I'd I'd That's

4:56

probably just natural to the way we do

4:58

life as we get older as like yes

5:00

when do I get to chill in my

5:03

brain and add some and kind of found

5:05

a few years ago when I was out

5:07

be I used have a partner in Sweden

5:09

and spend a lotta time in the countryside

5:11

in southern Sweden and I at first it

5:14

just. Are of course I post. This

5:16

is a beautiful place within. I quickly would

5:18

become agitated and I find it had to.

5:20

Be it was like why are you

5:22

agitates You have everything you need here

5:24

and you have This is peace in

5:26

this wonderful but I don't know You

5:28

like to be a part of a

5:30

family but was all these things that

5:32

I still like those kind of like

5:34

I grew up in a small town

5:36

that was mainly just like working people

5:38

farmers, fishermen, fisher people, mechanics and as

5:40

a fellow you was what I was

5:42

always trying to get away from and

5:44

to song I and a glorified this

5:46

place is that the nostalgia that exists

5:48

within each hours music is. often you

5:50

know these is quiet places is

5:53

naturals spaces that are that i

5:55

long for it's i found myself

5:57

in his in this place that

5:59

was like kind of where

6:01

I grew up, you know?

6:03

It's just the provincial agrarian

6:06

community. And then I realized

6:08

that was something in me that

6:10

was the fight, you know? It was like, it was something

6:13

in me that was the problem. So I kind

6:15

of had to break myself and eventually I did

6:17

find like this really calm, which

6:19

to me, the calm was kind

6:22

of quieting the ambition. Like

6:25

I often talk about ambition in the sense

6:28

of what it can do for us and

6:30

what it can do like do against us

6:32

at the same time. Like our ambition can

6:34

really drive us to do all the things

6:37

in our life, to take us places we

6:39

never thought we'd go, or I don't know,

6:41

just push us to be the best we

6:43

can be within our art or our careers.

6:46

But it can also like drive us away

6:48

from our friends and family and completely isolate

6:50

us within. So it's kind of like finding

6:52

that, like I recognize my parents' workaholic

6:55

nature from when I was a kid and

6:57

I hated it. Like I didn't have enough

6:59

time with them. And now, you know, by

7:01

the time I was 32, 33, I

7:04

was like, oh, that's what I do. It's

7:07

the same thing. Yeah, exactly. It's

7:10

really interesting because that ambition is gonna be

7:13

what's responsible for getting you to where you

7:15

are, but it's also gonna be what's responsible

7:17

for every time you've not taken time to

7:19

appreciate where you are and what you're doing.

7:22

Because there's always gonna be the next thing

7:24

that you're trying to climb up to,

7:26

particularly I think the music industry and

7:28

the acting industry, all of these industries

7:31

are so driven by competition at times

7:33

that I always remember when

7:36

I started doing music, I'd been working in

7:38

record stores. So the dream was to just

7:40

have a CD on a shelf in the

7:42

record store. As soon as it was on

7:44

the shelf, because we'd started to get some

7:47

daytime radio play, we're looking at where we're

7:49

gonna be in the charts. And if we're

7:51

gonna get daytime play, if we're gonna get

7:53

evening play, if it's gonna be specialist shows

7:55

playing us or the mainstream shows, and

7:58

all of this absolute non- when

8:00

we should be going, fuck man, we've got

8:02

a record that people can buy. This is

8:05

the real thing, this is amazing. That should

8:07

be the bit that you enjoy and appreciate.

8:09

No, you're absolutely right. That's something I think

8:11

about a lot, and I've talked about before,

8:13

which is when I was going, or

8:17

when we first got a spotlight, this band

8:19

was going almost 10 years before we had

8:23

a national moment and that was through

8:26

a performance on Letterman and our fourth

8:28

album Singles. I want to talk about

8:30

that because we're coming up with the 10-year anniversary of

8:32

that. So it's that kind of thing. It was 10

8:34

years before and it's now 10 years on. So

8:37

yeah, people keep reminding me of that. And I

8:39

was like, oh, that is weird. I didn't think

8:42

about it, but it is. We

8:44

are at the full before and after. We're

8:47

coming up in just like, I guess about four months

8:49

now. Yeah. But yeah, the thing

8:51

about, oh my gosh, I just lost my train.

8:54

What were we talking about? I devoured you. That's

8:56

my about the kind of competition

8:58

of it all. And now you would go

9:00

in 10 years before you had your big

9:02

break and such. Yeah. So I think

9:06

about that time. And remember the people

9:08

that I would meet along the way

9:10

in that 2014 and 2015, musicians

9:13

who had had that moment. People

9:16

that we had looked up to or

9:18

are aware of, at

9:21

least, who would come up to us at festivals

9:23

and be like, oh, you guys are amazing. But

9:26

hey, don't forget to look up

9:29

and enjoy this moment

9:31

because it will never happen again. And I was

9:33

so buried within the work of it that I

9:35

was like, yeah, cool. Cool. Appreciate it. And

9:38

then years later, I would be like, oh, wow. I

9:40

did miss that. Like I was just,

9:43

you're just like on the

9:46

grindstone. It's the work again. Yeah.

9:48

To what you were saying, it's the work. I think you

9:50

have a moment and you're like, right. I have to now

9:54

maximize the effect of that moment. So yeah,

9:56

just a flash in the pan. Yeah.

9:58

You're like, we. We can't

10:01

stop. And that was,

10:03

you know, we've talked about having issues with

10:05

our album that came after that album. And,

10:07

you know, there's songs on that that I

10:09

really, that I really, I think are

10:12

great songs and I love them. But the issue

10:14

with that record, you know, fans don't like it

10:16

when you disrespect an album that they love. They're

10:18

like, what's wrong with them? But I feel bad

10:20

for that reason. You're never supposed to admit your

10:22

mistakes as a performer. You can grin,

10:24

you can smile through them in these things. You just

10:26

keep going. I know that. But, you

10:28

know, maybe it was a mistake to call that

10:30

out, but it's to call at a time when,

10:32

yeah, we feel like we had

10:34

to strike while the iron was hot

10:36

and just keep going. And we kind

10:39

of lost ourselves within the, all of

10:41

it, the total whirlwind of a wonderful

10:43

moment and didn't get to enjoy the

10:45

wonderful moment. Like exactly what you're saying.

10:47

It's, you know, I was talking to a

10:49

friend last night at dinner and she was

10:51

talking about this idea of, you know, really

10:54

when you're grasping for that thing or

10:56

grasping at anything in your life, that tends

10:58

to be the thing that makes it go

11:00

away. And I think of it in the

11:03

sense of, if you appreciate every little,

11:05

like the smallest thing, the

11:07

smallest joys, if you appreciate

11:09

them as a success or

11:12

a step up, or at least a step

11:14

along the way, you just have appreciation in

11:16

your life. You have like a greater, like,

11:20

I don't know, to have a win every day, it

11:23

makes it so you can get through the days. The

11:25

days are hard. You know,

11:27

life is hard and it's long. It's not

11:29

short, it's very long. And

11:31

we need, you know, it's just a thing

11:33

about appreciating yourself and

11:35

the work that you do. I think

11:38

it actually makes you progress in

11:41

just a natural way instead of,

11:43

you know, if you fail to

11:45

do that one big thing, you

11:47

know, what is that big? Like when you

11:50

get there, you will, you might

11:52

not even appreciate it, you know. Yeah, I

11:54

completely agree. And I think I'm

11:57

big on, in recent years in particular,

11:59

on trying to... reframe things, reframe how

12:01

I see things, how I perceive things,

12:03

because there's so much that we can't

12:05

change, but there's loads that we can

12:08

reframe. And the easy example I always give

12:11

is impostor syndrome. So for

12:13

me, moving into acting

12:15

and film and TV, and we're going to

12:17

talk about that too. There's that impostor syndrome

12:19

thing is the kind of fear that you're

12:21

not meant to be here, that you don't deserve to be

12:23

here and all that kind of thing. For

12:26

me, the reframe of that was, no, I'm

12:28

not meant to be here. How fucking great

12:31

is this? Like, like, like, there's

12:33

so many from where I come from, I've got

12:35

a start or all these different things, the amount

12:37

of things I've done with my voice, I'm not

12:39

meant to have done any of this. So now

12:41

I can just revel in all of it. Every

12:44

time I'm on a film set, it's like, I'm

12:46

not scared or intimidated and excited to be there.

12:48

Because yeah, you're damn right. I shouldn't be, I'm

12:50

not meant to have done any of this, but

12:52

I get to, that's kind

12:55

of a gift. Well, that's a power. That's

12:57

actually power. Yeah. I found on a

12:59

film set is like, I'm

13:01

not even supposed to be here. So if I'm

13:03

not good, then it's your fault. Yeah.

13:06

All y'all are quality

13:08

control. I'm going

13:10

to do the best I can, but I'm not supposed

13:12

to be here. You put me here.

13:14

This is on you. And again, this

13:17

kind of the difference of working on

13:19

something that's film and TV are such

13:21

big productions, whereas a band of music

13:24

is kind of in your control in some way. Yeah.

13:26

I mean, you've got more creative control. It's

13:29

your thing. So it took me a while to

13:31

get used to being able to

13:33

let go of that control by stepping into film

13:35

sets and things like that. And knowing that all

13:37

I can do is turn up and do my

13:39

best. Yeah. And then it's over to other people

13:41

to deal with that. Because that was a weird

13:43

transition from music. Like particularly I started

13:46

off in spoken word. And that was partly because

13:48

I loved rap, but had no one

13:50

around here to make beats for me. So spoken

13:52

word was a thing I could do off my

13:54

own back. Yeah. If I fail, it's my fault.

13:56

And if I succeed, it's my fault. So that's

13:58

a big difference. switching industries. So I

14:01

mean, how did you find that? Like you

14:04

made your debut in the changeling. We've

14:07

not even mentioned Kelly Marcel yet,

14:09

but there's love. There's

14:11

the most love in the world there for Kelly

14:13

Marcel. Yeah. Kelly is absolutely

14:15

amazing. Yeah. It was Kelly that gave

14:17

me the opportunity to be in the

14:19

show through being a fan of Future

14:21

Islands and Saw's play. Yeah.

14:24

She was like, I think that's a crazy asshole

14:26

in his TV show. Yeah. That's

14:28

a crazy guy. So it was just one of

14:30

these moments. I

14:34

didn't know what was happening. I was just doing thing

14:36

that I do with my friends

14:38

playing a show and got the opportunity

14:40

to audition for this television show. But

14:42

the thing is, when I got the

14:44

call from her, I had just gotten

14:47

out of this relationship in Sweden. I

14:49

was very confused about what

14:51

the hell was happening with my life. Because

14:53

I was engaged. I had an apartment there.

14:56

I had a whole life planned.

15:00

Don't make plans. A

15:04

disclaimer, don't make hard plans. Be

15:07

open in your life to change. So

15:09

if I'd have gotten that ask two,

15:12

three months prior, I

15:14

wouldn't have done it. I would have been

15:17

like, nope. I am happily with my

15:19

partner through a hard pandemic. I

15:21

am just going to be here. I'm not

15:23

going away to you. People are crazy. I'm

15:25

not an actor. But I was at

15:27

that point in my life where I didn't know what

15:29

was happening. I

15:32

had what I thought was my life taken away

15:34

from me. So I was at that point of

15:36

just saying, sure,

15:38

why not? I'll try this. I'll try

15:40

that. I remember hitting my agent

15:43

just a couple of weeks before and being like,

15:45

call up the producers, see who wants to work.

15:47

Time to go to work. Love

15:50

is dead. Let's

15:53

go to work. I'm going to go to LA. Yeah,

15:55

that was my goal in getting out of

15:58

that relationship. It was funny. I was like, I'm going to go. into

16:00

every single studio in Los Angeles and

16:03

just go to work and make

16:06

something happen because I wanted to cover up

16:08

what I was going through. So

16:10

in a way like when Kelly gave

16:12

me this opportunity, it allowed me to

16:15

do exactly what I wanted to do,

16:17

which was put myself into a difficult situation

16:20

and try to navigate it. To

16:23

be honest, probably so that I didn't

16:25

have to navigate my own difficult situation,

16:28

allowing myself so much of my work

16:30

as a writer is that personal

16:32

work, that digging into these feelings

16:34

and these things. But I think

16:36

I needed to dig. I

16:39

wanted to dig into something that wasn't myself. I

16:41

felt really strange at that time. So

16:44

I'm kind of spinning my wheels, but it

16:46

is such a weird time to think about.

16:48

And in a way, looking back on that,

16:50

it was six months, six and a half

16:53

months of filming for the changeling. There's parts

16:55

I'm like, when did I do that? It

16:58

feels like something that happened to me more than

17:00

it felt like something I did. And

17:03

a lot of, I'd say the

17:05

hardest part about the job was just the

17:07

waiting. I don't think people

17:09

realize how much of acting is not, it's

17:12

like five minutes of your whole day. Yeah.

17:15

Yeah. I got, my goddaughter is

17:17

enjoying drama at school and I got them a

17:20

role on a Netflix thing.

17:22

Oh, God. And it

17:24

was two or three days of waiting

17:27

around, filming little bits and

17:29

they're in it for about two seconds. Yeah.

17:31

It was the perfect introduction to the industry.

17:33

It was like, this is what it is.

17:37

If you're enjoying it, let's show you the reality of

17:39

it. It was exciting as well. Yeah. Exciting

17:41

to be there and be on a film set, but it's also like, here's

17:44

all sides of it. Now make your decision. Yeah.

17:47

Well, I think music in a way gave me,

17:49

it gave me a leg up because I mean,

17:51

you know, like being on the road is, you

17:54

know, as you say, like hurry up and wait.

17:56

It's the same in the film industry. It's just,

17:59

you know, You spend 10 hours

18:01

a day traveling and setting up, and then you

18:03

get to do your one and a half hours

18:05

on the stage. But so much of it is

18:08

the getting there and the waiting and the mental

18:10

fortitude to just be

18:13

away from everything for a few

18:15

months, or not even the mental

18:17

fortitude. Sometimes it's how great your

18:19

powers of disassociation are to

18:22

get you through, to enter the zombie phase, as

18:24

I call it, which is about six weeks into

18:26

a tour or where you just

18:28

become, you do your job amazingly, but

18:30

you're not really a human. You don't

18:32

feel anymore. Your body is so broken

18:35

that it doesn't even really hurt.

18:38

And alcohol is like blood,

18:40

and you need blood. I

18:43

always remember people kind of asking, because I'd

18:45

give quite intense performances, I'd have people ask,

18:47

how do you do that night after night

18:49

after night? And it's like, that's the bit

18:51

that gets me through everything else. Yeah, exactly.

18:53

I wouldn't be able to do all of

18:55

this if I didn't get to do that.

18:57

That's the one bit of the day I'm

19:00

living for. It's to have that feelings

19:02

and those emotions, because you have to

19:04

go into that zombie mode for so

19:06

much of the rest of

19:08

touring life. Yeah. Have you ever

19:11

done a tour working on a

19:13

crew or anything like that? Because

19:15

I drove a tour once. I've

19:17

got a record label as well.

19:19

And just as I

19:21

kind of stopped making music, one of our

19:23

rappers was over, B Dolan, and we just

19:25

had this new band, War and Peace, release

19:28

a record. So we did a label tour.

19:30

And I was merch man, tour

19:32

manager, driver. I mean, it was

19:35

all a low key tour. It was like a two week thing, but

19:37

that was just, yeah, I was everything.

19:39

Because I've done all of that and you're

19:41

all kind of, you know, I guess if

19:43

you have five jobs, it could be OK.

19:46

Yeah. Don't have any time to even think

19:48

about how hard it is. Years ago, I

19:50

did a couple tours doing merch for friends,

19:53

bands that were bigger than us at the time.

19:56

Yeah, yeah, do it for friends. But

19:59

it was. really like the hardest touring

20:01

I'd ever done because I didn't get

20:03

the chance to perform. Get the good bit.

20:05

Yeah. I was just like, man, I don't

20:08

know how people do this. It makes you

20:10

respect crew a lot more, but everybody has the

20:12

thing they do in life. For

20:15

our sound person, Ian,

20:17

he loves doing sound.

20:20

That's also his show,

20:22

Alison on Lights. That's her show. She's

20:25

really proud of what she

20:27

does. There is still

20:30

an artistry that's very, very

20:32

important to the show on their side. Also,

20:34

it is funny because our merch guy, he's

20:36

one of our oldest friends,

20:38

our buddy Dan, has probably been with

20:40

us about 12 years. The merch

20:43

world is his world. I

20:46

guarantee you, meticulous knows everything. Don't

20:48

touch this. Hey,

20:51

Dan, are you doing okay today? He's like, yes, no

20:53

one's spoken to me. I'm very happy. Okay,

20:56

great, man. Great. Do you

20:58

need anything? No, I'm fine. Bring me some

21:00

bananas. I'd get

21:02

into that mode on too anyway. When we'd have

21:04

a new support act, or whatever, if they were

21:06

coming in the van or whatever, on

21:08

the first day, I'd say, look, if I

21:10

go quiet for a few days, I'm not

21:13

mad. There's nothing wrong. You've not done anything wrong. I

21:15

just need to go into my own world a little

21:17

bit on the road because that's what

21:19

I would do. But I'm always so worried

21:21

about seeming rude or seeming like a diva

21:23

or anything else. So I'd at the start

21:25

just be like, look, if I've just got

21:27

my headphones on and I'm not really interacting,

21:29

it's cool. We'll interact at dinner or whatever

21:31

else. But you get to that point on

21:33

a tour where it's like, I need to

21:35

shut myself off from the world. And

21:39

that's a hard one because it's so

21:42

important to remember the

21:44

beginning of why you do the thing,

21:47

but you can be in such pain,

21:50

physical or emotional, or

21:52

just, yeah, like you said, like I completely

21:54

understand trying to shut off. I always remember

21:56

this story when I was about 16. I

22:00

went, I'm going to throw somebody under the bus

22:02

right now. I don't care. Exclusive,

22:04

exclusive, exclusive. Now

22:08

I went to, I drove with some

22:10

friends to see a show. I

22:13

grew up like in the sticks of North Carolina and

22:15

the nearest city was Raleigh, North Carolina, which is the

22:17

capital. It's about three hours away from where I grew

22:19

up. And just on the other side is Chapel Hill,

22:21

which has an, I don't know, I

22:23

wonder if you ever played the Cat's Cradle in

22:25

Chapel Hill, but it's

22:27

like a legendary venue and you know, being a

22:29

kid growing up in North Carolina, it's the place. It's

22:32

like the first step, you

22:34

know, getting to play the Cat's Cradle is a dream come

22:36

true. I saw some of my first shows

22:38

there and you know, I grew up a hip hop head,

22:40

but I went, I was probably about 16 and

22:42

I drove with some buddies to see

22:45

the living legends and it was idea

22:47

and abilities were there of Mexican descent

22:49

opened. Like it was a, like

22:51

looking back, it was, and I didn't even know

22:53

of Mexican descent was on the tour, but anyways,

22:56

it was a crazy show, but somewhere towards the

22:58

front of the night before living legends had gone

23:00

on, I saw Eli and out front and

23:02

he was on his, he was like on

23:04

a blackberry or something. So, you know, this

23:06

is what 24 years ago. It

23:09

was just like on a little flip phone,

23:11

probably texting with like a lady or his

23:13

lady or something. I guess I can't speculate

23:15

on that, but I went up to him

23:18

and just like try to talk to him

23:20

and he, he just, he would

23:22

give me like a one word answer, but I was also

23:24

being a fan, but I was like, are you Eli? I

23:27

love your music. I've been listening to your

23:29

music for two years, but when you're 15, 16, that's

23:31

like a lifetime. So it

23:33

was like, you're, you're my favorite. And

23:36

he just kept turning. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh till he almost

23:38

did like a 360 and I

23:40

was really, I was

23:42

like, oh, I don't think he wants to talk.

23:44

And I was really kind of injured in the

23:46

moment. And then just, you

23:48

know, three, four years later, I was in

23:51

college and I started my first band and

23:53

I was getting my first like experience with

23:55

talking to people outside of a show. And

23:58

it was really important to me. to not do

24:01

that, to give people the time. But

24:03

fast forward another 10 years, and

24:06

I'm outside trying to smoke a cigarette

24:08

before or after a show, and I've

24:10

got people hounding me, and I'm broken

24:12

in my spirit and in my body,

24:15

and I'm going through something, and these

24:17

people are trying to talk to me,

24:19

and I'm doing that thing. Then I

24:21

was like, I'm an asshole. Like

24:24

I finally understood. I've become Eli's

24:26

in the cradle. Well, me and

24:28

Eli are cats in the cradle.

24:34

But no, the bigger thing was Eli coming up to

24:36

you before a shower, and you ignored him. Oh,

24:39

that would have been the ultimate revenge. No,

24:42

but the truth was, it made me, well, it made

24:44

me feel like an asshole in that moment, but then

24:46

it made me feel like an asshole for telling the

24:48

story that I'm telling you right now about Eli for

24:50

so many years, because I had no idea what he

24:52

was going through. I don't know what his

24:54

day was. I

24:56

didn't know anything about being in a tour

24:59

bus or in a van

25:01

and traveling around with, I mean, what

25:03

the living legends are probably like 12 dudes. I

25:06

must feel wild. I love the living legends

25:08

so much. One of the

25:10

most fun live groups I've

25:13

ever seen. I was going to say, I want to

25:15

get into rap a little bit because there's

25:17

so much exciting stuff.

25:19

I want to know who you're into. You

25:22

mentioned the idea there. One

25:25

of my first imposter syndrome moments

25:27

was going on stage in

25:29

Texas at one point to

25:32

do a set. An idea and

25:35

Buck were side stage to watch.

25:38

And they just kind of chatting and interacting.

25:40

And it was four strange famous, so Sage

25:44

and B. Dole and all that were introducing

25:46

me. And I'm there, again, this

25:48

is a weird thing because when they're all

25:50

on your CD shelf, they're

25:53

not real humans. So then when we're out there, and

25:55

again, we were on the same label, a lot of us. So

25:57

it was a normal thing, but it was the first time I'd had it.

26:00

had that and it happened to be

26:02

as I was walking to do a show. So

26:04

I couldn't allow myself to fanboy out too much

26:06

because I had to be in performance mode. So

26:08

it was just walk past and go like, oh

26:10

shit, how cool is that? Then

26:13

you can go on and do your thing. But yeah,

26:15

who are you into? Who are your influences there? Because

26:17

I want to talk about your vocal

26:20

influences in future islands

26:22

and as Hemlocka in

26:25

your rapping. Because speaking of strange famous, there

26:27

was a guy on strange famous

26:30

called Curtis Plum. He was

26:32

so good. He was so unusual. I

26:34

think you'd enjoy him. He's really unusual.

26:36

But I remember speaking to him in

26:38

Texas that time and he described his

26:40

main vocal influence as Catherine Hepburn. Which

26:43

sounds bizarre. As soon as I had

26:45

said that, I could hear it. Yeah,

26:48

exactly. That's

26:50

exactly his voice. He's rapping in that voice. He

26:55

was from like, where was he from? That's

26:57

hilarious. I think it's just

26:59

this weird dude. But yeah, amazing

27:01

stuff. Obviously, your vocal styles

27:04

vary from when you're singing

27:06

to when you're rapping. So who

27:09

are your rapping influences? Then we'll get

27:11

deep into who your musical influences are.

27:13

Well, it is interesting because I do

27:15

feel like I feel freedom to do

27:18

whatever I want. Especially

27:22

within rap because I

27:24

should say because of rap, and

27:26

especially being influenced and

27:28

loving the West Coast

27:31

styles like Project Bload stuff that I would discover

27:33

when I was 15, 16 years old. I

27:38

always thought the West Coast Underground

27:40

really explored style different

27:42

than the East Coast Underground. A lot of the

27:44

East Coast Underground was more about, I've

27:46

talked about this before, East Coast was

27:48

like how hard you are or having

27:51

that, had a hard edge to it at

27:53

least to show. What I loved

27:55

about hip hop that I connected with was

27:58

the MCs who shared

28:01

stories of vulnerability and

28:04

places that they weren't talking about what they had.

28:08

This is before the Jiggy era, which

28:11

to me was despicable. I

28:15

always remember hearing Scarface do Scarface be

28:17

the hardest in the world and then

28:19

the most vulnerable in the world. Yeah,

28:21

that is. I'm hearing this guy that's

28:23

terrifying me and then I'm getting emotional

28:25

as I'm connecting. Yeah, no,

28:27

Scarface is an amazing example, but early on

28:29

it was like Kerris One was huge for

28:32

me and listening to all the Boogie Down

28:34

production stuff. And really when I

28:36

got into rap, it was

28:38

because of a few records. Grave

28:41

Digger Six Feet Deep was the first

28:44

and then it was Diggable Planets Blowout

28:46

Comb, They Lost Soul Balloon Mine State

28:48

and Channel Live Station Identification, which is

28:50

a really unknown record channel. Do you

28:52

remember Channel Live? They had, I

28:54

think they only put out one record and it

28:56

was all produced by Kerris One actually. There's

28:59

a really great song in there. It

29:01

has like a little child singing the chorus.

29:03

It's the alpha and the omega, we're gonna

29:05

crush you sucka MC's like Sega. It's

29:07

the alpha. And that rings a

29:09

bell. They were so

29:12

good. Their channel, I forget those

29:14

two MC's names. They were on

29:16

some Kerris One solo albums. But

29:18

anyways, those records kind of were

29:21

my intro in that my brother

29:24

recognized that I would not stop listening to

29:26

his Grave Digger Six Feet Deep record, which

29:28

I was obsessed with. Grave

29:30

Diggers are a great example though of what you

29:32

were saying about kind of not having any rules,

29:36

not even stuck to reality. Like

29:38

they would go to, prior to

29:40

people will cite Eminem or Odd

29:42

Future or whomever else who will

29:44

just go so weird and surreal

29:46

and dark and tonally

29:48

all over the place, like both topic

29:50

wise and vocally. And Grave Diggers were

29:53

an amazing example Of that. Yeah, I

29:55

mean, and even I Think too poetic who

29:57

he has some of the most. The

30:00

talking about the styles before like to

30:02

me east coast was more about like

30:04

the toughness of it and to me

30:06

like the west coast was more about

30:09

how hard you could style like how

30:11

hard he goes like to me west

30:13

coast underground looked like graffiti you know

30:15

just like wow bao something about it

30:17

the way it moved me and then

30:20

I realized that that was like a

30:22

language as a as a shield and

30:24

sword. And. As kind of what I

30:26

saw as a child like like go

30:28

with the east coast it was galvanizing

30:31

your stories of hardship in and being

30:33

strong in it which is something that

30:35

I really that's what I try to

30:37

do with each rounds as why try

30:39

to do on stage which is showing

30:41

vulnerability but through through masculine energy to

30:43

actually play with like gender norms and

30:45

how with the what it is to

30:47

be a man you know and breaking

30:49

down this idea and you know essence

30:51

expenses I'm sure not what like care

30:53

of one was going for but. When

30:55

you sell when he tell a story

30:57

you know a a while you are

30:59

home with your mother, afraid of the

31:02

dark i was sleep in out and

31:04

Prospect Park even when meal every two

31:06

of every forty eight hours you know

31:08

and that any suffice? that's not pretty,

31:10

that's not glamorous. You know he's talking

31:12

about the times that he was homeless

31:15

trying to just eat and how that

31:17

made him strive towards his ambition to

31:19

wrap to make something of his life

31:21

army so that that's the sword and

31:23

shield but on the west. Where maybe

31:25

I didn't get the message is strong.

31:28

It was people that work building walls

31:30

with like tongue twisting and Qaeda breakdowns

31:32

and like just like time signature switch

31:34

outside what are you doing you know

31:37

it's like it's like walls vs up

31:39

briar patches you know like yeah artists

31:41

and ah and so I've had that

31:43

was more what I went to words

31:46

because when I was seventeen eighteen and

31:48

have anything to say you know like

31:50

a be like I am tied to

31:52

the earth and the trees you know

31:55

six. by good as it might have the

31:57

data or for that i was like well if i

31:59

can if I can push style,

32:01

and that's where I went. At

32:04

the same time, there's anti-pop consortium

32:06

on the east, in New York,

32:08

which are hugely influential to me,

32:11

and just people

32:13

that create worlds through

32:15

their words, or feelings,

32:17

emotions, like the way High Priest's

32:20

voice is, it's

32:23

floating in zero gravity, slowly

32:26

away from the spaceship. For

32:29

that whole era, I always felt

32:31

like Cannibal Ox, in

32:34

there as well, was just feeling like- That's

32:36

still like a perfect album. I've never heard

32:38

before, yeah. Completely agreed. It was just like,

32:40

I've never heard this, and it sounds hard

32:43

as fuck, but it also sounds like a

32:45

trip and a dream, and all these

32:47

other things. It's beautiful as well. It's got

32:49

that hardness and that vulnerability in there, which

32:51

is a hell of a

32:53

thing. Yeah. I was actually,

32:56

I guess I'm sad that nothing ever

32:58

really came again. That record is so

33:00

perfect. Then you're like, well, yeah, that

33:02

would really suck if that was the

33:04

record you made, and then you're like,

33:07

let's make another record. Yeah. The problem

33:09

with touring with a fair few people

33:11

of that indie rap scene in America,

33:13

is everyone knows each other so well,

33:16

they know their tricks. I was on tour with someone,

33:18

I won't say who, and they

33:20

just said, because I was always like, vast

33:22

air, I could listen to him for

33:25

hours. You know how easy it

33:27

is to be vast air? You

33:29

just slow everyone down, and it

33:32

sounds more impactful. Every

33:34

syllable is important, and that's what

33:36

Kairis did too. That's what Kairis

33:38

was like. He would do that.

33:41

Kairis was my number one guy as well. As soon

33:43

as people start to break it down, you go, oh

33:45

no, that's kind of, it's a trick. It's easy to

33:47

do here. Don't say that. Just

33:50

let me be lost in the magic. That

33:53

is a good point. Well, again,

33:55

there's so many places I want to go around

33:57

and talk about. We've only got a- a

34:00

limited amount of time for all decency. But

34:02

what were your influences with future

34:05

islands then? Who'd

34:07

jump out to you? Because again, for me,

34:11

driven synth pop

34:13

sounds, the UK

34:15

has got such a mad history in it.

34:18

So I was wondering if there's UK influence,

34:20

if there's, yeah. Just as

34:22

you say, in your vocal style, in the

34:24

freedom there to go however you want and

34:26

wherever you want. Yeah, I mean, I think

34:28

it kind of began early on. I mean,

34:30

going back, I

34:32

mean, it always confuses people that they're

34:34

like, oh, you're into rap music and

34:37

you also rap. How does that

34:39

figure into future islands? But it's so much

34:41

of the way that we've always created from

34:44

the time before future islands. We had a

34:46

band called Art Lord and the Cell Portraits.

34:49

We were all learning our instruments

34:52

together. Garrett had never played a keyboard before. He

34:54

was a guitarist and William had never played bass

34:56

before. He was a guitarist. I

34:58

had never watched him sing in school or

35:01

something or like with my mom, but I

35:03

never wanted to be in a band. I was

35:06

a rapper. That was my identity and my joy.

35:11

How I fit into music was through rapping.

35:17

So then coming into creating with Art

35:19

Lord, there were a certain number

35:21

of things. It was more of a conceptual

35:23

art piece at first, and we were really

35:25

aping craft work in love. We

35:29

wanted to desperately be craft work.

35:33

Three keyboards, bass guitar was the

35:35

instrumentation. But then I'd never

35:37

heard Joy Division until I got to

35:39

college, and that smacked me in the

35:41

face. Because I was just

35:44

like a hip hop and jazz kid.

35:46

I didn't get bands. I listened

35:50

to some punk music and stuff for me

35:52

and Garrett would rock like Slayer in his

35:54

pickup truck and stuff. Yeah,

35:57

I Didn't really know about that. The

36:00

Underground Root Rock music of any

36:02

kind. I'd say rock finally because

36:04

an hourly thing but anyways hearing

36:06

Joy Division was like part of

36:09

it was I didn't feel like

36:11

a came through in the same

36:13

way through like of ban format

36:15

music I felt like and I

36:17

still talk to this day about

36:20

the ideas that you know up.

36:22

The thing about the M C

36:24

is that they it's like the

36:26

only music genre where the person

36:28

really references themselves. And that you

36:30

may take it as like it's a big

36:33

on a bike. It's like it. I mean

36:35

that's part of it is like it's just

36:37

like graffiti. like share my name, see my

36:40

name like This is how we is, how

36:42

we get up and this how we get

36:44

known. But it's also about giving. It's like

36:46

manifesting your own personal strength by putting yourself

36:49

in it and by saying it. But there's

36:51

something so personal and web bands. and I

36:53

mean it's something that I try to do

36:56

as a musician in a band is too

36:58

kind of speak with an universal language. That

37:00

can reach as many people as possible

37:02

through future islands. but I still am

37:05

very self referential because of because of

37:07

this hip hop influence N N n

37:09

that those ideas about telling these personal

37:12

stories. But when I heard Joy Division

37:14

it was the song of digital. And.

37:17

I could seal.

37:20

Like his a most in. Explode.

37:23

Since he says it's it was like

37:25

yeah I kids I could like feel

37:28

his body vibrating with something that you

37:30

couldn't hold on to and that's what

37:32

I connected with. I connected with. Will.

37:34

Also, just of debt. Those baselines.

37:38

Ah, success as that. You

37:40

know that repulsive force, But.

37:42

But. So incurred as was a really early

37:44

influence with in Art Lord Mayor but more

37:47

so like within the Dance of It like

37:49

in Art Lord I used to do the

37:51

robot and stuff and of out of break

37:53

on the robot him he trousers anymore if

37:56

people would see you might freak out those

37:58

be kind of months. But but. On

38:00

to break Alexander, He doesn't know his

38:02

time to break out the robot because

38:04

some women new album that one is

38:06

going to bring the robot say but

38:08

it is I don't he does. Those

38:10

early songs were we would write a

38:12

chorus and then I would freestyle the

38:14

verses. You know him that was hip

38:16

hop you know I was a freestyle

38:18

hard and sounds like yeah Ok cool.

38:20

We wrote eight instrumentals and I haven't

38:22

written the lyrics yet where we can

38:24

still play them live. So he does

38:27

go on stays in place songs and

38:29

then just like. Freestyle. The

38:31

Me: like okay, cool. I kind of like that

38:33

thing I said. or you know you can like

38:35

fleshing out melodies in a. Improvisational way

38:37

which is something that I rt understood

38:39

like already understood that as a as

38:42

a freestyle Mc and at still like

38:44

part of how I treat today which

38:46

is kind of. That. Is s

38:49

first strike of. When. The guys

38:51

and meet you know when Garrett since been

38:53

instrumental I'm we have to was knew about

38:55

fifteen seconds of it and then I'm like

38:57

okay turn it off like don't listen that

38:59

anymore and then wait yeah whether it's a

39:01

day or three weeks or two months until

39:03

that time I'm like oh can sitting down

39:05

I I feel something in me I need

39:07

to write a song and then I'll put

39:10

on that that song and a thing is

39:12

I don't wanna over play it and burn

39:14

it out. Yeah I don't know if you

39:16

ever where it, where he did you did

39:18

you freestyle without a part of know ago

39:20

and. As as a never had that

39:22

of the angle of again tude reviews

39:24

allowed to pay Blue Amazing Freestone as

39:26

as always always this kind of just

39:28

just want to go away and craft

39:30

of his lies. yeah understandable stencil out

39:32

rather than graffiti hour and a thing

39:34

that plays into it is the idea

39:36

that that what is it and how

39:39

many to stay home and create every

39:41

intricate part, have it all under my

39:43

control and then presents it rather than

39:45

have that freedom or Eubanks. A. Did

39:48

you just as as a as off Disclosures

39:50

is. genuinely i'd and excited is not

39:52

cast with people so we had given

39:54

the the identity of banks a are

39:56

good repo it on the news in

39:59

america in australia in the all over

40:01

Europe, it was amazing. But yeah, let's go with

40:03

it's me and we'll see if they run with

40:05

it this time. That's funny.

40:07

Yeah, but it is like that thing.

40:11

That was the way we all brought

40:13

something to the table from

40:15

our different backgrounds. Garrett

40:18

was a metal head. He

40:21

didn't listen to Europop, which

40:24

is what ArtLord was. William

40:27

was the only one who really understood the

40:29

kind of scent bands and the

40:31

kind of world that we were actually, I don't

40:33

know if I should say aspiring to, but kind

40:35

of where our sound kind of fit, William was

40:37

the only one who kind of understood that because

40:39

he grew up with two older sisters who like,

40:42

you know, his first cassette was the

40:44

Tops and Twins. And, you know, he was

40:46

just like, he was the one who showed

40:48

me Joy Division. He showed me The Cure.

40:50

And then there's people like, yeah, like The

40:53

Cure. I didn't get them till

40:55

I was probably about 20 years old. And

40:58

then it just like hit me like a

41:00

ton of bricks. And like Robert Smith

41:02

is such a phenomenal, for me, such

41:04

a phenomenal writer and his

41:06

ability with his voice is uncanny.

41:08

And he still does it. Like

41:11

he still has this strange, powerful,

41:13

amazing voice. High voice.

41:15

I don't know how he does it, but you know,

41:17

the influences are all over. I mean, there's probably even

41:20

a little bit of like Ghostface

41:22

bad singing is an influence

41:24

on me. Been way too

41:26

long. I was going to say

41:28

again, the freestyle element

41:30

makes so much, makes

41:33

sense. Cause if

41:35

you're improvising singing,

41:37

it's going to have that freedom of where

41:40

the tone goes, of where things go. Cause

41:42

you've not got the, do you know what

41:44

I mean? If you've got the words written

41:46

out, you know how that goes. If you haven't,

41:48

you're going to go tonally up and down and

41:50

deep and high. And that makes sense for

41:52

that starting like that is the perfect starting

41:54

ground to build, to then become your style

41:56

as such. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I am like,

41:58

I mean, then that's the. funny thing is

42:00

so much is like the things that

42:03

I learned through MCs and style and

42:06

something. You know, I'll still write

42:08

a song like probably the last, you know, this

42:10

is an unreleased material, but the last song that

42:12

I wrote for Future Islands, I was really proud

42:14

of it because I was like, like, Hey guys,

42:16

here's a demo. And this is a different style

42:19

than I've done before. And that's pretty cool to

42:21

be 18 years and 21

42:23

years into it with those two guys

42:25

and be like, I found a different

42:28

style, different cadence and flow and

42:30

approach. And, and, and, you know,

42:32

I think when you allow yourself that

42:36

it just opens the possibilities up, you know,

42:38

if you feel that you need to, we

42:41

have a sound, this is the way we

42:43

sound and, you know, Future Islands does have

42:45

a sound, you know, within, within the music

42:47

and within the messages within the stories, there

42:49

is a pretty strong through line. But,

42:52

but I also, I take that

42:54

as us defining ourselves. I

42:56

feel like when you hear our music, you're

42:58

like, that's a future islands. And I think

43:01

that's great. You know, in a world where

43:03

there are so many, so many bands that

43:05

probably form every day and, and just trying

43:07

to make a name for yourself and be,

43:10

yeah, yeah, just, just trying to be

43:12

yourself. I mean, that is so much

43:15

of once again, like rap for me,

43:17

which is just that holding on to

43:19

your, your space in this world

43:21

and feeling like you,

43:24

you can share your voice, that your

43:27

voice matters, which is another message of,

43:29

of Future Islands. But it's, you

43:32

know, it's something that we, we practice to

43:34

show people, you know, not to tell people,

43:36

but to be like, yeah, we can, you

43:38

know, we're just for kind of normal looking

43:41

dudes and we're, we're doing

43:43

this thing and it's really cool. Like that

43:45

is a powerful place to be. And I

43:47

think if you open yourself up

43:49

to people or just natural with

43:51

people or natural on stage, you

43:53

know, sans fashion or trends and

43:56

you just like stick to your guns and try

43:58

to be honest and sincere about about who

44:00

you are, that's something that gives

44:02

people, it gives people strength to see

44:04

that. At least I believe,

44:07

these are definitely ideals. It's

44:09

idealistic, but yeah, I mean, if I can

44:11

hold on to some idealism, then. This

44:15

world will beat it out of you. You

44:20

can see on my face

44:22

a slightly glazed look, because my

44:24

mind's been blown by the realization

44:26

that your equal parts, Ian Curtis,

44:28

Robin Smith, Ghostface, is my theme.

44:31

And Graham Pooper, don't forget. And Graham

44:33

Pooper, yeah, it's that perfect combination. I

44:36

love it. Well, I

44:38

wanna rerun back, and again, it is something you would

44:41

have talked about so many times, but one of my

44:43

favorite things in the world is really great

44:45

musical performances on late night TV, and

44:47

the reason for that is because they're

44:49

quite rare, because it's a really weird

44:52

scenario and weird situation. The

44:54

one late night show we

44:56

did when touring America was the Carson Daly show.

44:59

And it's not a natural situation for performing.

45:01

I enjoyed it, and I

45:03

saw it for the first time in years, where he said, yeah, it was

45:05

all right. That works okay, but

45:07

it's so unusual. There

45:10

was a Shakira performance this year

45:12

on Jimmy Fallon that

45:14

blew my mind. But as I said, you've

45:16

got one of those on Letterman 10

45:20

years ago. How did it feel getting

45:22

booked for that, and then how did it feel

45:24

after? Because as you say, you were 10 years

45:26

in your career. A lot of these things, you've

45:28

got that new band energy. What

45:31

did you feel going in that you had to, or

45:33

did you feel that this is your make or break

45:35

kind of moment at

45:37

this point? No, I mean, I

45:40

think that's probably, I think part of the

45:42

power of that performance and why it came

45:44

off in a certain way and meant something

45:46

to people was the fact that for what

45:48

we wanted when we went after music as

45:50

a lifestyle, as

45:54

the goal was to, the goal at 23

45:56

was to start

45:58

taking the band serious, going 20. and

46:00

make our art our life, you know,

46:03

live off the art. And by

46:05

the time two years before Letterman happened, we

46:07

had achieved that. And,

46:09

you know, it was different. You know, I often talk

46:11

about this, like when I was 26, 27, I

46:15

think I dealt with a lot more

46:17

like envy and jealousy and

46:19

the want, like seeing other people

46:21

succeed and wanting just like a

46:24

piece, you know, just kind

46:26

of our albums were overlooked by music media.

46:29

The press didn't really care about what

46:31

we did, but we kept going. And

46:34

we were shown by our friends, like first

46:36

our friends, Diane Thor, who were a North

46:38

Carolina band, who just went on

46:40

the road for years. And, you

46:42

know, they achieved a success by just

46:44

believing in themselves. And then it was

46:46

our friend, Dan Deacon, who showed us,

46:48

who was more like kind of

46:50

in our world, still a very close friend. And

46:53

he did the score for The Chancin' which is

46:55

such a cool connection. Dan also showed

46:57

us, you know, he, I feel like 2006 and

47:00

seven, which is the first

47:02

two years of when we switched over to Future

47:04

Islands, he just, he did something like close to

47:06

220 shows a year for

47:08

two years straight. And at the end

47:11

of that, he, you know, he got all

47:13

of this press. And because the

47:15

thing is like, when you have those moments,

47:17

if you've never played a show, if you're

47:19

this young band, then you're just kind of, the

47:22

people watching, they can connect on the

47:24

face level of whatever the performance is,

47:26

but they don't have any frame of

47:28

reference, you know? And there's no like

47:30

history to go back into a young

47:32

band. Like for us or

47:34

for Dan, you know, we

47:37

saw it with him first, when he

47:39

found success and people were championing his

47:41

music in the press for the first

47:43

time, I think with his record, Acorn

47:45

Master, and then Spider-Man of the Rings, which is

47:47

such a wild record. It was like, there's thousands

47:50

of people around the country who were like, I

47:52

saw that guy play in a basement, you know?

47:55

He played in my friend's living room. And

47:57

that's like the frame of reference. The same thing happened

47:59

with... with Letterman for us, where

48:01

people had those moments. They were like,

48:03

oh my God, I saw these guys,

48:06

played in nobody somewhere and they

48:08

weren't lying. Because

48:11

we were, for years we played around the

48:13

country to nobody until we were playing to

48:15

some people and then it was more people

48:18

and then we were actually living off of

48:20

these shows. And then we finally got the

48:22

opportunity to play Letterman. But

48:24

the thing was, the last

48:27

album before that was put out towards the end of 2011 and

48:30

we had been told that we were going to get Letterman.

48:33

We'd been told that it was coming through

48:35

and then it just never materialized.

48:39

And that record kind of went

48:41

under the radar to what

48:43

we had hoped it would do. Actually,

48:45

there's part of me that still thinks

48:47

that is one of our third record,

48:49

which is possibly our most experimental. I

48:53

used to think it might be the best record. Now

48:56

I'm feeling really confident about the new record, but

48:59

there's something about that record, but it largely went

49:01

under the radar. And because of that, we felt

49:03

like the label didn't get behind it and these

49:05

things. So then we made the change to 4AD.

49:08

And then once again, they're like, we're

49:11

gonna get you on Letterman and we're like, sure, whatever.

49:14

It doesn't matter now. And

49:16

they're like, yeah, well, you should do it if

49:19

it comes through. And we're like, okay, whatever.

49:22

Because we'd already, we'd achieved these things, but what I was gonna say

49:25

when I was 26, 27, I

49:27

wanted, I really wanted this

49:29

thing. I was grasping at this thing, as we

49:32

were talking about earlier. And then by the time I

49:34

was, Letterman happened two

49:36

weeks before my 30th birthday. And I

49:38

was at peace. Look, we

49:40

made this thing. We built careers

49:42

on our hard work and we

49:45

found people around the country and

49:47

all over Europe and the UK

49:49

who really care about our

49:51

art, support our lives. We

49:53

made it. So I think

49:55

that being in that place of peace

49:58

and feeling like Like it wasn't,

50:01

like we hadn't pulled the wool over someone's

50:03

eyes, you know? That we had done it

50:05

on our hard work. That helped

50:07

that calm kind of settle in our

50:10

lives. And then we played Letterman and

50:12

then everything exploded for a year or

50:14

two. And then I got

50:16

lost in the insanity of that moment and

50:21

went back, you know, that was the hardest

50:24

thing about after Letterman was kind of, I

50:27

reverted back to this, oh,

50:29

people care. And I lost myself for a

50:31

couple of years in

50:33

trying to once again, you know,

50:36

perform for a perceived audience,

50:38

you know, this new perceived audience that, you know,

50:40

that actually they aren't the ones that are going

50:43

to support you. The audience that was already there

50:45

are the ones. And there will be

50:47

people that you pick up in those moments that

50:50

discover you and continue to discover, you

50:52

know, that clip is still going around,

50:54

but, you know, there are lifelong fans

50:57

that have been made because of that. But it's not because

50:59

of your writing for them. It's because of

51:02

what you were writing before. You

51:04

were already writing who you were then. Yeah,

51:06

who you already were. The timing of where

51:08

you'd got to. Exactly. And again, completely related

51:10

there. I always remember the first time I

51:12

said, we are with me and Dan Lesak,

51:14

our first single was the one that blew

51:16

up and got in the chance. But even

51:19

on that journey, we have originally got

51:21

picked up by the late night shows,

51:24

radio shows by Zane Loeb, by Rob de

51:26

Bank, by all of these. But then we

51:28

got some daytime airplay. And then we started to

51:31

think that that's what we needed. It

51:34

was only in halfway through the second album, I think,

51:36

that there was a realization. It was like, well,

51:39

if Zane Loeb plays us in the evening, it will

51:41

be to a quarter of the amount

51:43

of people that the daytime will hear. But they'll be

51:45

our people. Exactly. If we're being played in the daytime,

51:47

it's a load of people who are probably going to

51:49

go, what the fuck is this? Yeah,

51:51

yeah. Why is this on my, so it's a

51:53

bigger audience, but it's not our audience. And you

51:55

realize that it's better to be in the

51:58

right place than be in as many places. as

52:00

possible at once. Well, it depends on

52:02

what you, I

52:05

mean, some people don't mind it. That

52:07

spotlight really, and I

52:09

made peace with that, but the thing about

52:11

being in the spotlight is that you

52:14

have twice or three times or

52:16

four times as many people to be critical of

52:18

you. To give you an opinion.

52:21

Yeah, but part of being an artist, I

52:24

believe when you go to art school,

52:26

I went to art school, you have to go

52:28

through a critique. Every piece goes

52:31

through a critique. It is part of the process.

52:33

So I also have to accept that that

52:35

is what happens. And also the

52:37

other thing is, when you create true

52:40

divisive art, that's like making

52:42

real art. If you

52:45

create something that's polarizing, that pulls

52:47

people in different directions, then you

52:49

actually create something that creates its

52:51

own conversation. So if you have

52:53

someone go, I hate this, and

52:55

you have someone go, but I love

52:58

it, then there's a fight, and then

53:00

you can step away and

53:02

let them hash it out. And then their friends

53:04

get involved on both sides. And then random

53:07

people are like, oh, I need to check out

53:09

this art. I need to see this thing. And

53:12

then it just creates something. That's what happened with

53:14

Letterman. Not by our hand,

53:16

we were just doing once again, like we

53:18

were doing what we did and believed in.

53:21

The one thing about that performance was most

53:23

of performing it, I was just trying to,

53:25

I was like, is my zipper up? Do

53:27

not slip, do not fall. And then I

53:29

was in my head going, are you gonna

53:31

do the growl? Nah, you shouldn't do

53:34

the growl. Maybe I should do the growl. Nah, I

53:36

don't do the growl. I feel

53:38

like I should do it. No, I don't do it. And

53:40

it was like, well, it's done. And

53:42

so I don't even remember the, I

53:47

kind of just was in a transcendent blackout

53:49

state during the performance and just

53:51

completely in my head, just like

53:53

connect with the audience, don't

53:56

fall, don't fall. Are you gonna do the growl?

53:58

Don't fall, connect with the audience. If

54:00

you watch that clip right before my

54:02

first line, because we had to cut

54:04

the intro down for television, so it

54:07

just clicks in and goes straight to

54:09

it. But you'll see my left-handed

54:12

with the mic. On my right hand, I

54:14

touch the top of my belt and that's

54:16

to check to see if my zipper

54:18

is up. Because I literally

54:21

think it's just like, if

54:24

you watch the King of Sweden clip, which was

54:26

our first time back on

54:29

that stage, it's for the Colbert Show,

54:31

but it's the same Ed Sullivan Theater.

54:33

There's a part where I

54:35

lean forward and I check

54:38

if my zipper is up and

54:40

it's not. Then luckily they clipped

54:42

around it, but I had to zip

54:44

myself up one-handed and

54:46

I just cracked the biggest grin

54:49

on TV. Just like, nobody knows

54:51

why, but it's like that's

54:53

because my dick was hanging out. I

54:56

love that. I

54:59

love all that going on in your head because it means the

55:03

performance that you subconsciously gave almost,

55:05

is exactly what you were talking

55:07

about earlier of the masculinity

55:10

and vulnerability or related

55:12

in one thing. But

55:14

it's perfectly time that you were talking about that,

55:17

that it's then there to be debated.

55:20

A good friend of mine is a Scottish

55:24

comedian, Lemmy, who's a big fan of

55:26

you guys. I love you guys. I

55:30

hit him up and he wanted to say that

55:32

when he saw you on Let Em, and he

55:34

loved it and was absolutely gobsmacked and

55:36

didn't know what he was watching,

55:39

in an exciting way. He wanted to ask if

55:41

you have ever watched a performance, it's given you

55:43

that feeling. I love

55:46

this, but I don't know what it is. I know for me

55:48

the first time I saw the jazz musician,

55:51

Christian Scott, who I'd collaborated with, but had

55:53

never seen him live. I then watched

55:55

him and was just like, I don't know what this is,

55:57

but it's the best thing in the world. And similarly, we've.

56:00

Curtis Plum who I've picked up a couple of times now

56:02

and you go and listen to it.

56:04

Yeah, I'm an old man Curtis Plum. But yeah,

56:06

have you had anyone that you've watched in that way

56:08

and kind of been like, right, I've not seen, I

56:10

don't know what this is, but I can't

56:12

look away and I fucking adore it. I

56:15

feel like I'm, man, I must have, I must

56:18

have something really deep. I mean, that is kind of,

56:20

I mean, that is what I got when I heard,

56:22

when I saw, when I heard

56:24

Ian Curtis and then I shortly after

56:26

saw, uh, here are the young men.

56:28

It was the, it's that small like

56:30

tour, it's not really a doc, it's

56:32

like some early performances. And

56:34

I was like, what is he doing? What

56:37

is happening? You know, him just like dancing

56:39

in and out of, you know, a single

56:41

light, you know, like disappearing and

56:43

kind of like bringing that epileptic fit.

56:46

I was just, I did not understand

56:48

that. And seeing the Cure like

56:50

a, oh, it was in orange, which I think

56:52

is like a 83, 84 concert. That

56:55

was when I realized that Robert Smith played the guitar.

56:58

And I was, I just had always imagined him

57:00

being just a singer. And then I was like,

57:02

Oh my God, he is ripping the guitar and

57:04

he's singing these crazy lines. And

57:07

I was like, I need

57:09

to learn how to do something

57:11

else. Cause I can't play any instruments.

57:13

Yeah. Part of my part

57:15

of what I do as performance is because

57:17

I don't have an instrument. And so I

57:19

feel like, I believe that if you are

57:21

a front person and you don't play an

57:23

instrument, you better do something, like do

57:26

something. I learned

57:28

a load of like prints and at

57:30

the driving kind of style mic

57:32

stand tricks and a little key flips to

57:34

the mic purely because of that, because of

57:37

my own awkwardness, because I'm like, well, you

57:39

got to do something. Because the person I collaborated

57:41

with was amazing producer. There'd be these big instrumental

57:43

bits. And it's like, if I'm on

57:45

the mic, I'll move, I'll do everything. But if I'm

57:47

not on the mic, I don't know. I

57:49

don't know how, how, how dancing I'm going to get. So

57:52

it's finding those things from artists.

57:54

I like that. Yeah. Far

57:57

more talented than me and going, right. Here's

57:59

what I can add. And the buzz of that

58:01

was always amazing. I do a thing

58:04

that I'm sure I stole off Cedric about

58:06

the driving, that I'd let the mic kind

58:08

of hang down. And then just before it

58:10

kicks in with the outside of my heel,

58:12

I'd give it a little kick. Nice. Spin

58:14

up and catch it. I love that move.

58:16

And I was like, it's my fucking

58:18

favorite move, but for a rap

58:20

show, no one's doing that. And that's what I

58:22

love because I grew up on punk and rap.

58:24

So I was always trying to bring those two

58:26

energies rather than simply, like

58:28

you mentioned, um, anti pop consortium earlier,

58:31

one of my favorites. But I always remember seeing

58:34

them live and thinking, do they know

58:36

we're here? Yeah. Cause they've just made their

58:38

own world. So kind of contained and created

58:40

their own world. So yeah, totally. It's like

58:42

a mad thing. But I don't, yeah, I'm,

58:45

man, I'm really bad off the top of

58:48

my head with like, uh, with, with this

58:50

kind of stuff, but it is, you know,

58:52

I think mine performances that have really affected

58:54

me and performers were, uh, those that I,

58:56

I spoke about, but also, you know, James

58:59

Brown, like you watch the Tammy show and

59:01

I want to, I want to know how

59:03

to do that. Like, I don't know how

59:06

you do that, how the body does

59:08

that, but also like watching, you can

59:10

watch Elvis. There's that famous return. He

59:12

had the famous return where he

59:14

played on like a circular stage in the middle

59:17

and he's in like all black leather. And I

59:19

watched that years ago and he,

59:21

he just does this move

59:23

where he's deep. He's like close

59:25

to the front or this audience. And he,

59:27

he looks so in pain

59:30

and the single tear rolls down

59:32

his cheek and the crowd, the

59:34

women are just like gasping, screaming.

59:36

And then he hit, he

59:38

just smiles through this

59:41

year. And I'm like, performance,

59:43

this is amazing. And

59:45

those kinds of moments of, I mean, for

59:47

me, it's more, I've, I don't think I've

59:49

ever seen a performance and been like, well,

59:52

that can't be true. The, what are you doing?

59:54

I'm trying to, I'm trying to bring my head

59:57

around that side. Cause it is like, I like

59:59

weird stuff. I like people to go out

1:00:01

and I'm always mining for what is the

1:00:03

truth of an artist, why

1:00:06

what they do is important so that

1:00:08

I can better understand my own self

1:00:12

as an artist and like seeing people's

1:00:14

freedoms. Cause I believe that, you know, some

1:00:16

people ask me, you know, why

1:00:18

doesn't everybody perform like you? And I'm like, well, then

1:00:20

I wouldn't be interesting. And

1:00:23

also it's not about, it's about the person.

1:00:25

You know, I think I bring my personal

1:00:27

truth to the stage as I believe that

1:00:30

it should be performed. But I don't think,

1:00:33

I think if you write a song

1:00:35

honestly, and, you know, are sitting at

1:00:37

a piano and singing it or speaking

1:00:39

it, then it's gonna come through. The

1:00:42

emotion comes through from the pen, you

1:00:44

know, it comes through from that

1:00:46

original place of writing. The

1:00:49

movement is a way of telling the story. The

1:00:52

dance is a hook, you know, the dance

1:00:54

is a way of grabbing people's attention so

1:00:56

that then you can tell them something important

1:00:58

so that you can hit them.

1:01:00

So I think lots of musicians

1:01:03

work in very different ways to create

1:01:05

those hooks. Then maybe they don't even recognize

1:01:07

that that's what they're doing, but it is,

1:01:10

for me, it's all about grabbing people's attention

1:01:12

so that you can tell them something in

1:01:14

any way you can, whether it's, you know,

1:01:16

something that, you know, we did

1:01:18

a tour recently opening for Weezer and they were so

1:01:20

sweet to us and we felt, you know,

1:01:22

honored to, you know, they asked us to play these

1:01:25

huge shows with them, but we're like, this could get

1:01:27

weird. I don't think we really, I don't know what

1:01:29

the crossover is. And it was, the first half of

1:01:31

the tour was kind of rough because their fans did

1:01:33

not like it. What

1:01:37

is this clown man doing? They were like,

1:01:39

music's okay, but this guy's, he's

1:01:41

weird and disgusting. I don't like

1:01:44

it. And I had to, I

1:01:46

had to like reassess, I had

1:01:48

to deal with this thing that I hadn't dealt

1:01:50

with in a while, this pushback, because

1:01:53

the other thing is you, when

1:01:55

you do create a world for yourself with

1:01:57

music, you get to exist in that world.

1:02:00

And as Mike said, you know, if you're always during that

1:02:02

tour, he's like, you know, if you're always playing to the

1:02:05

choir Then you don't really have to

1:02:07

go through any adversity So we had to

1:02:09

like we had to deal with it like

1:02:11

feel it and then we actually became better

1:02:13

because of the tour because we We

1:02:16

had to double down on what we

1:02:18

did and be like, oh, yeah Well, this is

1:02:20

what we do like I'm not gonna change what

1:02:22

I do for you because for for a few

1:02:24

shows I was trying to like tamp it down

1:02:26

a little bit make it a little bit easier

1:02:28

and then I was like nah I'm gonna rip

1:02:30

faces for ripping. Yeah, and and then the ones

1:02:32

you went over a were for the more I

1:02:35

always remember in a one-year period Me

1:02:37

and Dan supported LP saw Williams doing a

1:02:39

spoken word set and we weren't we were

1:02:42

doing our full set Billy Bragg

1:02:44

just Billy what is

1:02:46

it? And and Mark

1:02:48

Ronson like this is these First

1:02:50

we thought a mark Full

1:02:53

jazz band thing. Okay, and it was like This

1:02:56

was all within one year and it was just

1:02:58

us going right Well, we're not gonna be able

1:03:00

to adapt for all of them. So we need

1:03:02

to just go out there and do what we

1:03:04

do Yeah, exactly. There's no And

1:03:07

who can adapt to fit all of those? So it's

1:03:09

exactly that you have a load of people in the

1:03:11

crowd going Fuck is

1:03:13

this and like the Billy Braggs runs the

1:03:15

best example because we started and I swear

1:03:18

Zero percent of that audience was into what

1:03:20

we were doing by the end. We had

1:03:22

at least 50% 100%

1:03:25

but we had over 50% that's the greatest like

1:03:27

meant though I mean that's the thing if you

1:03:30

can do that, you know that and that's why

1:03:32

those kinds of tours are can be special Yeah,

1:03:34

it's just like reaching I mean that was I

1:03:36

was surprised how many young kids were at those

1:03:38

shows and then I was like, you know Maybe

1:03:41

we turn on some some kids with some stuff.

1:03:43

They didn't really know, you know, I don't know

1:03:45

what's happening Well,

1:03:47

it's the math thing with some of those bands

1:03:49

though like my again My

1:03:51

god daughter who's like 13 or 14 I

1:03:54

think now when she put up her

1:03:56

Spotify wrapped recently she had weaves a

1:03:58

buddy Holly in there like that would have

1:04:00

been on my Spotify rap when I was 13 or 14. Yeah,

1:04:03

that's really cool. How is this still? And I think that

1:04:05

we've, we've, Green

1:04:07

Day are always an example of, of

1:04:10

that for me as well. Yeah. Like I

1:04:12

was into them at school. I'm not necessarily

1:04:14

into them now, but kids at my, that

1:04:16

are at that age are still, they're the

1:04:18

best band in the world. And we, they're

1:04:20

a prime example of that as well. It's

1:04:22

bad. That's a good point. Longevity, isn't

1:04:24

it? Yeah. Green Day is still on the charts. Yeah.

1:04:28

It's insane. Well, I mean, we're

1:04:30

going to have to wrap things up, but we've

1:04:32

not talked about your new album at all and,

1:04:34

and you sent it through for me to have

1:04:36

a listen to. And I loved it. Thank you

1:04:39

so much. Tell me a bit about it. Tell

1:04:41

me about what the album is,

1:04:43

what your, your approach has been. Yeah.

1:04:45

Talk to me. I'd say the approach

1:04:47

is we didn't really, we didn't really

1:04:50

approach this how many differently in the

1:04:52

past records. Uh, but the thing that

1:04:54

was born into this record just because

1:04:56

of the state of the world was

1:04:58

time, you know, within, you

1:05:00

know, in the old days, we'd write a record,

1:05:02

you know, just be on tour all the time.

1:05:05

You'd be on the road for two months. You

1:05:07

get home for two or three weeks and you

1:05:09

say, well, I'm tired of that set. So let's

1:05:11

write some new songs. Right. We used to

1:05:13

just like get home for a couple of weeks,

1:05:15

write a couple of songs, take them on the

1:05:17

road. If they lasted the tour, you know,

1:05:19

maybe only one would last, maybe they

1:05:22

would both die very quickly,

1:05:24

then they became a part of the

1:05:26

set. And then you, you know, you're out

1:05:28

there, then you get home, write a couple

1:05:30

more songs and then, you know, if they

1:05:32

exist at the end, then this was the

1:05:34

process for our first three albums. Um, and

1:05:36

you know, once we got five or six

1:05:38

songs, we would go about to record them.

1:05:40

And while recording those songs, we would flesh

1:05:42

out the rest of the record, which is

1:05:44

why like our first three albums are all,

1:05:46

they're like eight and nine songs. You know,

1:05:49

it's not, uh, there was space to do

1:05:51

more, but there wasn't time or money or,

1:05:53

you know, those were all recorded in friends,

1:05:56

living rooms and skate parks and, and

1:05:58

this kind of thing. So with. with

1:06:00

Singles was the first time

1:06:02

that we went and recorded in a real studio.

1:06:05

And we got off the road, we took a

1:06:07

year, almost a year off, and

1:06:09

wrote and recorded an album. And

1:06:12

then that became the new style. But what

1:06:14

happened with As Long As You Are, our

1:06:16

last record, we were supposed to put it out

1:06:18

at the beginning of 2020. And

1:06:20

then of course, the pandemic happened. And then it

1:06:22

was like, well, how long do we hold on

1:06:24

to this record? Do we wait until the

1:06:26

pandemic... What do we do? Because there was no

1:06:28

idea when the pandemic was going to be over. So we ended

1:06:30

up putting it out at the end of 2020. Because

1:06:35

also for us, kind of to put out a

1:06:37

record to be done with it. Once

1:06:41

the album is out, then you can't

1:06:43

futz with the mix. You

1:06:47

just have to accept that that's what it

1:06:49

is. And then that acceptance allows you to

1:06:51

go forward and write new songs. So

1:06:54

I'd say by the time that record was turned in,

1:06:56

it was middle of 2020

1:06:58

or early 2020. And

1:07:01

we started writing. So the first

1:07:04

year and a half of writing

1:07:06

was the first seven songs. And

1:07:08

they were all kind of dealing with this space. Like my

1:07:10

ex was in Sweden. And

1:07:12

for the first six and a half, seven months of the

1:07:14

pandemic, I was unable to get back to her because of

1:07:17

border closures and lockdowns and all this stuff. Finally

1:07:19

able to get back for three months, but then I had to leave for

1:07:21

three months because of Visa. I got back for

1:07:23

three months, then I had to leave again for three months

1:07:26

or for four months. And then when I went back the

1:07:28

last time at the end of 2021, we split up this

1:07:30

time and distance.

1:07:35

And it was kind of like one of those things

1:07:37

you... Looking back, I

1:07:39

saw that I should have seen it coming.

1:07:43

And when I looked at the songs, those

1:07:45

seven songs that were written up until this

1:07:47

point over the pandemic, I'd seen them as

1:07:49

these love songs of two people

1:07:52

apart that were holding on that

1:07:54

we were going to get to

1:07:56

the end together through this hard time. And then we

1:07:58

split and I was like... Oh,

1:08:00

that's not what those songs were. These

1:08:04

songs were me like holding

1:08:06

desperately holding on or like trying

1:08:08

to remind a person like, Hey,

1:08:10

remember that we have to, you

1:08:12

know, not, and not that she didn't feel

1:08:14

that we both felt the same way, but,

1:08:16

but, uh, it was like, I think I

1:08:19

could feel that she was slipping in that

1:08:21

distance and just like how hard it was,

1:08:23

like, you know, uh, the disassociation to get

1:08:25

through the time and just the everyday

1:08:27

agony of not knowing just

1:08:29

like fear and anxiety. And so when we

1:08:32

split those songs became very

1:08:34

colored, very, very differently. Um, they started

1:08:36

to mean different things and I could

1:08:38

really divine them in different ways. But

1:08:40

you know, after that, the last, uh,

1:08:43

five songs were written pretty, pretty fairly

1:08:45

quickly. I think the first four were

1:08:47

written within a two, three month period.

1:08:49

And then the last song

1:08:51

came, uh, in

1:08:53

like June, July of, of, uh, 22, which is,

1:08:58

I actually recorded that song in, when I

1:09:00

was in Toronto filming and it's the only

1:09:02

time I've ever, I recorded the demo on

1:09:04

this mic and when it came time to

1:09:07

record it in the studio, I asked the

1:09:09

producer, like, can we keep it? Like, can

1:09:11

you, it is

1:09:13

the vocal good enough that you can make it

1:09:16

sound like it's in the world. Cause you know,

1:09:18

this is, I'm just like, it's

1:09:20

my travel rig, but I was like, I'll

1:09:22

never be able to capture the

1:09:25

emotion of that day in finishing

1:09:28

that song and recording it in

1:09:30

a city that I don't live in, you know,

1:09:33

in this new isolation, in this new

1:09:35

world, completely separated from this person that

1:09:37

was, I thought my life. And now

1:09:39

I was just like, can you, can

1:09:42

you use it? And he's like, I'll do my best. And,

1:09:44

uh, and it ended up working out. And I

1:09:47

can't even, I feel like maybe we did try to

1:09:49

take it and it was just like, this doesn't sound

1:09:51

the same. And I'm like, it's not the same. Yeah.

1:09:53

You know, now we're always, always the risk of falling

1:09:55

in love with a demo, isn't it? And again, if

1:09:58

there's something is there. Dan Lassaco

1:10:00

I used to work with, kind of stop sending

1:10:02

me early versions of his beats. I'd

1:10:05

fall in love with him. I'd write the whole thing to

1:10:07

this thing. He'd go, no, it's not finished yet. I'd be

1:10:09

like, no, but it's perfect. He

1:10:11

wouldn't let me have it until he was happy

1:10:13

with it because he's like, otherwise, we're just going

1:10:15

to end up arguing. I don't want to hear

1:10:17

a version that I'm not happy with. You fall

1:10:19

in love with cause of the moment in which

1:10:21

you heard it and what it meant, and what

1:10:24

it inspired at that time. So yeah. I love

1:10:26

that you got to use that still and got

1:10:29

to push that through. That was something me

1:10:31

and our co-producer, Steve Wright,

1:10:34

we had talked about on As Long As You

1:10:36

Are, where he was like, at some point, we

1:10:38

need to get you a pro rig where you're

1:10:41

set up and when you have those.

1:10:43

Because he's like, there is a difference.

1:10:45

When your demos, the quality is not

1:10:47

great, but the emotion is so

1:10:50

much better than what we capture

1:10:52

in here. Yeah. It's really interesting.

1:10:55

On average, you're going through a

1:10:57

thing, and it's true. When

1:10:59

you write a song, you're just like, oh,

1:11:01

you're feeling it. You also haven't

1:11:04

quite figured out how

1:11:06

you want to make it sound better,

1:11:09

which is more approachable. So it has

1:11:11

another layer of a rawness and

1:11:14

a simplicity, which actually those kinds

1:11:16

of elements hit harder. Yeah,

1:11:19

you're not trying to soften the edges

1:11:22

to make it more palatable. You're just

1:11:24

going to have that raw idea or the way

1:11:26

your voice breaks, because

1:11:29

you don't have the pressure of like, oh, it's going

1:11:31

to last forever. So it doesn't really matter. But

1:11:34

that throw-awayness is part of, I

1:11:36

mean, if it is

1:11:38

a throw-awayness that is in the

1:11:40

quality of your vocal, it's probably because you're trying

1:11:43

to throw away a feeling. And

1:11:45

that's exactly, you're capturing, you throwing

1:11:47

away a feeling. Yeah, it's just,

1:11:49

ah, f***ing demo-itis, man. It's real.

1:11:52

It's hard. Yeah. It's

1:11:54

a tough thing. It's a tough thing.

1:11:56

I always remember the original version of

1:11:59

this song. I Shot Always Kill that came

1:12:01

out was just recorded in my bedroom at my

1:12:03

mum's house. Then we

1:12:05

had to re-record it when we were doing the album,

1:12:07

just because the rest of the album, it

1:12:10

didn't sit in there. I

1:12:12

struggled massively with it because it was like, but that's

1:12:14

the one everyone else fell in love with.

1:12:18

So Demois, it's got into everyone else, if you know what

1:12:20

I mean. We didn't keep this to

1:12:22

ourselves because it was the MySpace era. We

1:12:25

just made it, uploaded it. Here you go. It's

1:12:27

like, now we're doing a new

1:12:29

version that I don't know. Everyone might also think,

1:12:31

why have you done that? Yeah.

1:12:34

What do you mean by that? It's tricky.

1:12:36

It's tricky. I think because we had to

1:12:38

upload two of the early singles, which

1:12:41

came out long before the record is going to come

1:12:44

out, are going to have, they're going to

1:12:46

be remixed. Nothing drastic,

1:12:48

but I know there's going to be some

1:12:50

fans who are like, I want my other

1:12:53

mix. The original. Yeah.

1:12:55

So it's like, what are you going to

1:12:57

do? Because we ended up, so we finished

1:12:59

this record probably,

1:13:01

I mean, really close to the end

1:13:04

of 22. I thought

1:13:06

we were two days away from finishing the

1:13:08

mix. Then William

1:13:11

Our Basis had the

1:13:13

idea to remix the whole album with

1:13:15

another mixer. So we broke

1:13:18

out the checkbook. In

1:13:21

the spirit of let's make sure

1:13:23

everyone's happy. But we ended up

1:13:25

creating this hybridized version from where

1:13:28

we were with our buddy, Steve

1:13:30

Wright, who co-producer, mixer, and

1:13:32

then our friend Chris Cody who

1:13:34

did our album singles. They

1:13:37

have very different styles of mixing. Steve,

1:13:39

what we had achieved with Steve was this clarity in

1:13:42

our music that we'd never gotten before. You can really

1:13:44

hear every voice of

1:13:47

everyone within the band. You

1:13:49

can hear all of Garrett's sounds sparkling through.

1:13:52

It was something that I was really

1:13:54

proud of with as long as you are, that we had created

1:13:56

with Steve. I felt like we

1:13:58

had gotten better. with this new material.

1:14:01

But then in hearing Chris's mixes, we kind

1:14:03

of lost the clarity, but he was bringing

1:14:05

this like, there was something to his sounds

1:14:07

that were just like, thicker

1:14:09

and stickier. And

1:14:12

he brought some kind of, it was

1:14:15

like an intangible vibe, but

1:14:17

it was like, but the dynamic is off. Like we

1:14:19

had worked, some of these songs we had worked with

1:14:21

Steve for like a year, year and a half mixing.

1:14:24

Two of the songs were already out, you know? And

1:14:27

then you're like, how are you gonna, there's

1:14:29

no way I'm gonna unhear a finished,

1:14:32

mastered song that's been out for two years. And

1:14:34

now I have to hear a new

1:14:36

mix of it. Like this is messing with

1:14:38

my head. So then we kind of, we

1:14:40

approached Steve and Chris and said, is it

1:14:43

crazy if you mix, if

1:14:45

Chris mixes from Steve's mixes? Cause you know,

1:14:47

when you have somebody mix a record, you

1:14:49

zero out all the effects and all

1:14:52

the levels and then they just go from

1:14:54

scratch. But we had already done all the

1:14:56

work to make these songs.

1:14:59

Super dynamic, super clear.

1:15:02

And I thought sound really good, but there

1:15:04

was something about Chris's sonics. And both of

1:15:06

them was like, were basically like,

1:15:09

well, people don't do this. And then

1:15:11

we're like, we know, are

1:15:13

you willing to do it though? And

1:15:17

they basically were like, yeah, well,

1:15:19

like Steve was like, I relinquish

1:15:22

whatever will help this project, you know,

1:15:24

reach to finish. I'm happy if, you

1:15:27

know, this is on, people

1:15:30

don't do this. And Chris was also like,

1:15:32

it's pretty weird, but oh yeah, I'll give

1:15:34

it a shot. And

1:15:37

yeah, I think it was, I think we really

1:15:39

achieved that. Like Chris added a

1:15:41

heft while not taking away from the movement and

1:15:43

the dynamic movements of the

1:15:45

record. And for

1:15:47

me, you know, Chris made

1:15:49

our most successful album. Steve, in

1:15:52

my opinion, made our best sounding album up to

1:15:54

this point. So I'm like, if

1:15:56

these two guys can work together and we can find

1:15:59

this compromising. place then we're all

1:16:01

the better off. It's the best of these

1:16:03

two worlds. But

1:16:07

the most important thing was that we were still

1:16:09

all happy, which I

1:16:11

now have two albums that I'm really proud

1:16:13

of the sound of. I

1:16:16

think for all four of us, there's

1:16:19

always something with the first

1:16:21

five records, somebody has a problem with something.

1:16:24

It was like, I wish I had

1:16:26

sang that differently. I wish my bass tone

1:16:28

was different. I wish they hadn't remixed my

1:16:30

drums that way. I wish my keys were.

1:16:33

As long as you are, the goal

1:16:35

was because we had all the time in

1:16:37

the world because of the pandemic, we made

1:16:39

sure that we made a record

1:16:41

that all of us were proud of and had no issues

1:16:43

with. Then we somehow

1:16:47

did it again, even after a

1:16:49

major overhaul at the last minute. I

1:16:52

love it. I love the people don't

1:16:54

do it this way and you guys

1:16:56

being able to go, but can we

1:16:59

do it this way? It's a beautiful thing rather

1:17:01

than take that. No, that's not how it's done.

1:17:03

It's not how it's been done. Yeah.

1:17:05

But how about it's how it's done here. It's

1:17:08

what's right for the project. Yeah,

1:17:10

precisely. I love that. Yeah, precisely.

1:17:13

It's about sucking up egos

1:17:15

for everybody too. I

1:17:18

knew at that point, William would

1:17:20

not allow it to

1:17:22

exist as it was. He needed to have

1:17:24

one more touch on it, but

1:17:26

also the guys and

1:17:28

myself weren't willing, but I think the

1:17:31

guys more so Mike and Garrett weren't

1:17:33

willing to throw away all of this work

1:17:35

we had done. I was

1:17:37

like, how do I

1:17:40

stick this together? So

1:17:43

I was just happy that they were willing. I think

1:17:45

we had our manager first and he was like, yeah,

1:17:47

they aren't going to go for that. You

1:17:50

were wrong, Ben, you were wrong. You

1:17:53

heard it here first, folks. Ben

1:17:56

was wrong. 100% wrong. But

1:18:00

yeah, I'm proud of the record.

1:18:02

It's so dense with emotions and

1:18:04

that's, it's

1:18:07

a strange world when you do this press cycle

1:18:09

and you start doing interviews, and you have to

1:18:11

actually figure out what the hell your songs are

1:18:13

about. Then you're like, man, this

1:18:15

is sad. Particularly after such

1:18:17

a broken period as well. As you

1:18:19

said, the reframing of what they're

1:18:22

about even because of where you are when you

1:18:24

wrote them versus when you recorded

1:18:26

them and so on and so forth. These

1:18:30

albums reveal themselves over time and songs

1:18:33

reveal themselves over time through the playing

1:18:35

them. These songs

1:18:37

haven't even reached their finished point because I

1:18:39

guess seven or eight of them haven't even

1:18:41

been on stage yet. I'm

1:18:43

giving big nods here because I

1:18:45

truly believe if

1:18:48

I could rerecord every album after a year

1:18:50

of touring them, I would. Yeah, they would

1:18:53

back when you find the finished song. Yeah,

1:18:55

that's when you find what this song is

1:18:57

meant to be. I've had it numerous times

1:18:59

that a song has come on when

1:19:01

I'm out somewhere and it's one of mine and I'll be

1:19:03

like, is that how that goes? Because

1:19:05

that's not how it ended up going after

1:19:08

touring it for years. It's like, that's not how

1:19:10

that goes at all. What's happening? Well, I mean,

1:19:12

we're going to have to wrap things up at

1:19:14

some point. I want to ask what's

1:19:17

ahead, but I assume it's a load

1:19:19

of touring. New

1:19:21

record tends to mean hitting the road

1:19:23

again. Yeah, we haven't announced many dates

1:19:25

yet. Part of the album

1:19:27

title, People Who Aren't There

1:19:29

Anymore, is also about us as

1:19:31

musicians. We're in

1:19:34

the future. We're not really

1:19:36

planning to tour the way we used to. For

1:19:39

years, we have prided

1:19:41

ourselves on being a band who

1:19:43

is going to be in your

1:19:46

town or near it and

1:19:48

doing our best to just

1:19:51

try to play everywhere. That's

1:19:55

not sustainable anymore. For

1:19:58

me personally, I've got... My

1:20:00

leg is destroyed. I've had a torn ACL

1:20:03

for about eight years now and

1:20:05

that's turned into like advanced arthritis. And

1:20:07

it's just very painful vocal

1:20:09

problems. So it just takes, you know, I'm about

1:20:11

to be 40. It takes longer

1:20:13

for the body to recover and

1:20:16

it's not gonna get easier. So like

1:20:18

doing 150 shows a year is not a thing that

1:20:21

I can do and be on this earth.

1:20:25

So we are paring down to like 50, 60

1:20:27

shows a year and going forward and just

1:20:29

trying to make those shows really count, make

1:20:31

sure that when we do play, it's at

1:20:34

100% because I feel terrible when

1:20:37

I have to give anything less

1:20:39

than what I think I'm capable

1:20:41

of. And it's not about going, well,

1:20:44

I'm always gonna give more than I

1:20:46

got, but it needs to be something

1:20:48

that is consistent. And I don't feel

1:20:50

like I'm inconsistent, but there's a pain

1:20:53

that goes into those long jaunts on

1:20:55

the road now. And I

1:20:57

don't want people to

1:20:59

see that pain. I want it to

1:21:02

be a joyous experience and not one

1:21:04

that I have to channel something darker

1:21:06

to reach people. I

1:21:09

don't know if that really makes sense, but sometimes

1:21:11

I'm not perfect sense. Yeah, I feel like there

1:21:14

were some times, not

1:21:16

even last year, but the year before that where I was

1:21:19

on the road and being like, I

1:21:21

just wanna, yeah, I wanna die

1:21:25

and I don't know how I'm gonna go on stage tonight,

1:21:27

but it was just like, just put

1:21:29

it in the performance, Sam. I'm just

1:21:31

telling myself, just let it out.

1:21:33

And I'm right, I'm right, and it's

1:21:36

a good lesson, but also I

1:21:38

don't want that to be, I don't

1:21:40

wanna be exercising this, I

1:21:43

don't wanna exercise pain. I wanna exercise,

1:21:45

I don't know. I do

1:21:47

wanna exercise pain, but I'm trying to say,

1:21:49

I want the pain to come from the

1:21:51

pure places of the songs and trying to

1:21:53

reach people and not from the decay of

1:21:55

my body, which is the decay of my

1:21:58

spirit. Yeah, from the experience of... tour

1:22:00

and it sounds. Yeah, exactly. So, so just,

1:22:02

I just want to be at a more

1:22:04

positive place and the guys feel the same,

1:22:06

you know, Garrett's a father now. So it's

1:22:08

also important for, for him. Also

1:22:10

for me, you know, cause I want to be a

1:22:12

good uncle to be like, you should be there for

1:22:14

your kid. Like let's not, yeah,

1:22:17

let's not be gone for four or five months of

1:22:19

the year. Like I want, I want for you and

1:22:21

Garrett's a great father, but I want for you to

1:22:23

be a good father and be there and be

1:22:26

around. So yeah, you know, we're just getting

1:22:28

older, but I've got a crazy rap album

1:22:30

coming out sometime in May or June. And

1:22:33

again, we've hardly touched on your rap stuff,

1:22:35

but you know, you've worked with people like

1:22:38

Madlib who are just icons

1:22:40

in this world. So

1:22:42

tell me a little bit about the

1:22:45

next rap album. The next record is

1:22:47

with this guy, Icky Reels, who's a

1:22:49

Cleveland, Ohio producer is very different than,

1:22:53

actually the funny story about it is he's

1:22:56

a DJ producer for Beans from

1:22:58

Anti-Pop Consortium. And about three,

1:23:00

four years ago, Beans hit me

1:23:02

up out of the blue and asked through

1:23:04

Instagram and asked me if I would feature on a

1:23:06

track of his. And I was

1:23:08

like, like, hello, what's up? Like

1:23:12

we'd never spoken before. He just like hit me.

1:23:14

And I'm like, you're one of my heroes. This

1:23:16

is crazy. So, so I did, we did this

1:23:18

track together on anti-star system, which is bonkers.

1:23:20

You should check it out if you haven't heard

1:23:23

it. And then through that process of making that,

1:23:25

that song, he was like, you know, do

1:23:28

you have anything? Like, have you been working on anything?

1:23:30

What's up? And I was like, I have this whole

1:23:32

Madlib album that I never, I don't

1:23:34

think it's ever going to get released. And he's

1:23:36

like, I'd love to hear it. And so I

1:23:38

sent him this Dropbox file folder. And,

1:23:40

uh, he was basically like, this

1:23:43

is, this is fire. This is

1:23:45

great. Like wire isn't coming out. And I was

1:23:47

like, I don't know. I think, I think he

1:23:49

just moved on from it. And these things are

1:23:51

just kind of old songs. Now they're like seven,

1:23:53

eight years old. They finally actually got released into

1:23:55

last year with the buddy, but he was basically

1:23:57

like, well, no disrespect. Cause like Madlib is the

1:23:59

God, but. I think that you can do,

1:24:02

I think that you're better than these beats though. Like I

1:24:04

think you can, because of what

1:24:06

I did with him on anti-star system,

1:24:09

which is more of that kid of

1:24:11

who I was, as like tongue twisters,

1:24:14

but there's messages within it. It's not just

1:24:17

showing off, but just like crazy styles. To Matt,

1:24:19

I'm like with, I'm like fucking beans from anti-pops.

1:24:21

I'm like, I gotta bring it. I probably stole

1:24:23

a little bit from High Priest. I was like,

1:24:25

let me be a little High Priest here. But

1:24:28

anyways, so he's like, he basically was like,

1:24:30

I think you need to be challenged more.

1:24:33

And he started sending me, he's like, if

1:24:35

you're willing, I'll introduce you to my buddy.

1:24:37

And so, so yeah, so

1:24:39

me and Icky Reel started to collaborate

1:24:41

on some ideas back in probably 21

1:24:43

was the first stuff. And

1:24:46

it's very different. It's just like very acidic

1:24:48

industrial sounding beats with weird time signatures. You

1:24:50

know, some songs that are like, there's a

1:24:53

couple of songs that are like seven minutes

1:24:55

long and go through five or six different

1:24:57

changes. And I'm just

1:24:59

like, what? I mean, I

1:25:01

really had to push myself to

1:25:04

match the strange landscapes and energies.

1:25:07

I'm curious what people are gonna think of it. It's

1:25:10

not like a thing that you

1:25:12

will be heavily consumed, but I don't

1:25:14

really expect that. You know, like that's

1:25:16

the joy of rap for

1:25:19

me now is that even though it's

1:25:21

my first art form, I'm not

1:25:23

known for it. I'm still like, I say,

1:25:26

oh, what is it? There's a song that

1:25:29

I put out over, it was one of these old

1:25:31

Madlib songs, but the way my voice compressed in the

1:25:33

deck, my voice sound like a vet, but you ain't

1:25:35

heard it before because I've been hiding out in the

1:25:37

storm, picking up the pieces of yours till I found

1:25:40

my piece in a floor heartbeat from the floorboards. Vonnegate

1:25:42

to Poe, Chris Parker to Daniel D, Kerison,

1:25:45

but you know, it's just like, you have

1:25:47

it, I'm a veteran, but you

1:25:49

don't know. You have no idea who

1:25:51

I am the whole time. I've been here 20

1:25:53

years. Yeah, you haven't heard it. So there

1:25:55

is that part of me that I

1:25:58

just love to explore. without, you

1:26:01

know, once again, that's the power like

1:26:03

as coming into an acting role and

1:26:05

being like, I'm going to

1:26:07

do my best, but you know, like

1:26:10

you don't, you wouldn't know any

1:26:12

different. So, and I think with

1:26:14

with rap, like I, I've explored

1:26:16

so many different styles on different

1:26:18

features and different projects, because no

1:26:21

one knows how I'm supposed to

1:26:23

sound. I don't, and

1:26:25

I don't, but it's a power because

1:26:27

I already have my career. So I

1:26:29

get to enjoy rap and,

1:26:32

and explore it very fully because I

1:26:34

don't have to feel that I need

1:26:36

to achieve something other than

1:26:38

being honest to myself, which is how

1:26:41

lovely is that? Yeah, it's a beautiful thing,

1:26:43

right? Yeah. I love it. Well, I appreciate

1:26:45

you taking the time, man. It's been a

1:26:47

pleasure to finally meet and chat and

1:26:49

I look forward to catching up again soon in,

1:26:51

in the real world, no doubt in the real

1:26:53

world. Let's do it. It has been such a

1:26:56

pleasure, Pat. You've

1:27:12

been listening to Scroobius

1:27:14

Pitts distraction pieces. There

1:27:17

we bloody go. What a guy and

1:27:19

what a story and what a speaker.

1:27:22

What a conversation list. I loved

1:27:24

that. I really enjoyed that conversation

1:27:26

and I look forward to more of them. I

1:27:29

hope you enjoyed it as much as

1:27:32

I did. Very excited. The new album

1:27:34

is fantastic and I'm excited to catch

1:27:36

them live because I've never caught Future

1:27:38

Island's live and I should have had

1:27:41

the opportunity twice and was going to go,

1:27:43

but couldn't make it last minute. But

1:27:45

next time I get the opportunity, I'm going, I

1:27:47

tell you that and check

1:27:49

out Changeling on, on Apple plus.

1:27:51

It's good. It's good. I recommend

1:27:54

it. I'll be back next

1:27:56

week with more amazing guests. Until

1:27:58

then, stay safe. Stay

1:28:00

signed. Toot toot.