0:38

When you talked about introspection , that made me

0:40

think of a colleague of mine who spent seven

0:43

years trying to get into a residency

0:45

program . Finally , I was like you need to

0:47

tell me about one of your last interviews

0:50

. The conclusion that I came to

0:52

was that you are cocky

0:54

and this is why you're not getting into

0:57

residency .

0:58

So , introspection .

0:59

How are you navigating your own

1:02

personality , I guess , beyond

1:05

just the I check this box

1:07

and I pass the step three . Listen

1:09

, check boxes ain't gonna get you everywhere

1:11

. You gotta learn how to relate to people

1:13

.

1:14

Certain people we recommend Mock interviews

1:16

you please sit down with somebody and

1:18

I tell people all the time cause they're like , oh , you know

1:20

, I wanna be myself 100% of the time . I don't

1:22

want no program that don't want me . I get that

1:24

, but they're also making one of these decisions

1:26

and you need to treat all of these like first dates , you

1:28

know .

1:29

Yeah , bring the best parts of you All

1:31

, right , everybody , welcome . Welcome

1:33

, welcome to another episode of Docs Outside

1:36

the Box . I am your host today

1:38

, dr Renee . I'm flying solo

1:40

. I kicked Dr Ney off

1:42

the podcast and he is no longer with

1:44

us . Okay , I'm

1:47

just kidding . Dr Ney may or may not be

1:49

joining us a little bit later , but today

1:51

we do have a very special

1:53

episode for you all , and

1:55

we're really excited to continue on

1:57

with the kind

2:00

of partnership that we have going with the

2:02

Student National Medical Association , or

2:04

otherwise known as the SNMA , which

2:07

is an organization that is near and very

2:09

dear to my heart , that I've been a part of since

2:11

I was a student and continue as an attending

2:14

, being a part of , and

2:16

we are doing this particular episode

2:19

, or these series of episodes , to

2:21

really commemorate the 60th anniversary

2:24

of the Student National Medical Association , which

2:26

started in 1964

2:28

at Howard University

2:30

School of Medicine , as

2:33

well as Morehouse School of Medicine

2:36

or , excuse me , yeah , no

2:38

, mahary .

2:40

Mahary , Mahary .

2:42

Mahary . I worked at Morehouse School of Medicine

2:44

, but the SNMA started

2:46

at Mahary School of Medicine

2:48

as well as Howard University

2:50

School of Medicine , and the reason

2:53

that you can if you're watching on YouTube

2:55

that our guests were smiling is because

2:57

we have two guests with us today

2:59

that went to the

3:01

Howard School of Medicine , right , howard University

3:04

School of Medicine , and

3:06

today we have back Dr

3:08

Love Anani , who was on our

3:10

previous episode I believe is 397

3:13

, and we are joined by his lovely wife , dr

3:16

Uche Anani . Anani

3:18

, correct ? Mm-hmm , yes , yes

3:20

, okay , that was the one thing I didn't check before

3:22

we got on here . No worries , dr

3:26

Uche Anani as well . Dr Love

3:28

Anani . If you guys listened to the last episode

3:30

, you'll know that Dr

3:33

Love is an ER doc and

3:36

Dr Uche is actually

3:38

a neonatologist . However

3:40

, she is the assistant program

3:42

director in a pediatric residency

3:45

program . So I wanna welcome

3:47

you both here , because today

3:49

we are gonna talk about career paths

3:51

. I know we all three have been through career

3:54

paths . Yes , yes , yes , and

3:57

you know , here , on Docs Outside the Box , we often

3:59

talk about , we talk about money , we

4:01

talk about pop culture , but when we do

4:04

talk about medicine , it often

4:06

is about the career path of

4:08

medicine and just how we navigate

4:10

that , and so that's why we're talking

4:12

with both of you today . So

4:17

, dr Uche , you see a lot of residents

4:20

come through your residency program

4:23

. Obviously , as an assistant program director

4:25

, what

4:30

are some of the challenges that you would say

4:32

that you

4:34

see with applicants ? So

4:36

, before we get to the actual residents

4:38

, what are some challenges that you see

4:40

with applicants coming

4:45

through that path and trying

4:47

to navigate whether or not they're even going to

4:50

even get matched

4:52

to a residency program ?

4:54

Okay , that's a great question , kind of starting

4:56

from the beginning , and so I feel like everyone

5:00

, it's a daunting path . When you get into medical

5:02

school it's like , okay , it's survival mode , like let me just get

5:04

through these preclinical years . Now you get

5:06

thrown into the clinical and you're like what the heck

5:08

? And now I gotta decide on a specialty

5:10

. I'm sure we'll talk a

5:12

little bit more about decisions of training program

5:14

versus not but

5:17

you're making a decision , going to a training program . You're

5:19

like , okay , we'll say , for example , I think I'm

5:21

landing on peas . How do I

5:23

know that I will do well in the specialty

5:25

? How do I know if I'll be considered a competitive

5:27

candidate , all the things right .

5:30

And so .

5:31

I think the challenges those are kind of the initial

5:33

challenges right Like really finding yourself of like what's

5:35

gonna be well suited for me and have I gotten

5:37

enough exposure to make that determination ? To

5:40

be honest , it's just kind of like , whatever lands with

5:42

you and whatever kind of sits within you I

5:44

think it's helpful to have . I

5:46

think it's never too late to always have like a mentor

5:49

, like . So I think it's very important

5:51

to have a mentor early on , or people that you

5:53

feel that you can trust to just talk

5:55

it through right . So I think it's important

5:57

to be able to say , like I'm thinking about this

5:59

and these are the reasons why I'm interested in this

6:01

specialty , versus not . But also

6:03

, how do I align that with what

6:06

is my kind of like goal as a person in

6:08

terms of my future , like what's the lifestyle I wanna live

6:10

Like , what are the things that are important for

6:12

me outside of my career ? That I also wanna make sure I'm

6:14

able to align my career with that

6:17

, and so I think it's important to be able to

6:19

have those conversations at a time . So

6:22

that's , I think that's one thing that I think students

6:25

will struggle with and I think really

6:28

being able to assess their like am

6:30

I competitive or not ?

6:31

Oh yeah , yeah , that's cute and .

6:33

I definitely have a conversation , or definitely

6:35

have a lot of conversations , a lot of discussions with

6:37

students who are really trying to like get

6:40

a sense of that . And that's where , again , I'm gonna

6:42

emphasize this probably throughout an entire conversation

6:44

is mentorship is important Having

6:47

people you can rely on to

6:50

be able to have those conversations and kind of work

6:52

through the kind of mental process

6:54

of like what is this really gonna be like for

6:57

me ? And then walk through

6:59

the hey , the technical

7:01

.

7:01

You already know who it is . This is your boy .

7:04

Ah , ah , ah , ah , ah ah ah , ah , ah , ah , ah , ah

7:06

, ah , ah , ah ah .

7:07

Okay for those of the application . So

7:12

the reason we're laughing , folks , if you are not watching

7:14

on YouTube is

7:16

because Dr Need just walked in here trying

7:19

to bow guard Kick in the door , waving the full

7:21

four .

7:22

That's what I did , how y'all doing .

7:24

You walked in like Brother man from the fifth floor .

7:25

That's what you walked in like .

7:26

Remember me ? Yes , brother

7:28

man upstairs , fifth floor

7:31

.

7:31

That is true . I can't hear him , that's true

7:33

. He can't hear you because I

7:35

got my earpiece . Oh , I

7:37

guess I'm gonna hear wax .

7:40

He said you walked in like .

7:42

Brother man from the fifth floor .

7:45

So that's the best part about doing a podcast is because it's

7:47

not like regular you know , cnn

7:49

or whatever it may be Like . We can

7:51

have this type of crazy interruption and it's

7:53

still flow .

7:54

Keep it flowing , keep it flowing , how y'all doing .

7:57

Very good we're good we're good

7:59

.

8:00

So yeah , we were just talking before you came to

8:02

hijack the podcast , because I had literally

8:04

already taken it over . We

8:07

were just talking about some of the challenges , about

8:09

you know applying or

8:12

even getting to the point of application

8:14

for residents or for medical

8:16

graduates , and one of the things that

8:19

Dr Uche talked about was the competitiveness

8:21

right , like how do you even know you're competitive ? Do

8:24

you even have a mentor ? You know what

8:26

are the kind of the what's the pre-work

8:28

that you have to do before you get

8:31

to the point of even thinking

8:33

about what specialty you're going

8:35

to apply to if you're competitive

8:37

to that specialty , and then forget about

8:39

, like , where exactly you're going to be

8:42

.

8:42

You know applying to right Cause that's a whole

8:44

different that's a whole different thing

8:46

. Isn't a competitive reading the US

8:49

news and reports , that book that

8:51

tells you everything about the Med School ? That's

8:54

being competitive , right ?

8:55

That's what we're talking about , you need to believe . Right , exactly , I'm not

8:57

saying believe .

8:58

Yeah , I know the problem is

9:00

is , yeah , Working

9:02

with students as a mentor , what we tend to see a lot

9:04

. Oh , I got to do one thing real quick Before

9:07

anyone emails us or texts us . We are very well

9:09

aware we know Howard goes by

9:11

Howard University College of Medicine .

9:13

Yes , Howard . Oh , excuse me , College of Medicine

9:15

, Because from school to medicine people .

9:16

You know our doors about to be kicked down . Yeah , I'm on

9:19

the team , right , but the board's up Exactly

9:21

. But

9:25

, uh , trying to figure out what's competitive . Unfortunately

9:27

, a lot of students try to get in the

9:29

minds of program directors and assistant

9:31

program directors and they

9:33

try to assume what these program directors

9:36

want and everyone starts with the same thing

9:38

Scores , scores , scores . And

9:40

we used to have an easier one , step one

9:42

. You take that after your sophomore year . You know

9:45

exactly where you landed . That's past

9:47

. Fail now . So now everyone

9:50

has shifted their desire to be competitive

9:53

, or thought to be competitive , from step one to

9:55

step two . We're seeing students

9:57

take that earlier and there's

9:59

a lot more focus on that , all

10:02

the while more students are failing step

10:04

one now there were before .

10:05

There were before , really yeah

10:07

.

10:08

That's the stats , yeah , or the percentage has

10:10

gone up . The percentage has gone up . So

10:12

it's kind of like , but there's no score now . So the theory is

10:14

our students not putting that same fervor

10:17

. They were into step one grinding

10:19

every day and now it's just like oh , it's past

10:21

fail , I get to it when I get to it and I'll grind for

10:23

step two . Right and at the

10:25

same time . If you don't pass that first time , that's

10:27

still a bad knock on you , right , I don't care if you got

10:29

a 250 on step two . You didn't pass the

10:31

one , the first go . They still see that .

10:34

Yeah , yeah , yeah , and

10:37

you know it's funny because that was one of the things that we talked about a couple

10:39

of years ago , when step

10:41

one actually went to pass , fail , you

10:43

know , my thought was well , you just move to

10:45

step two and just use that , right , because

10:48

numbers are very easy to cut off . The

10:50

problem with that , I think

10:52

and love you can speak to this

10:54

is that oftentimes , students

10:56

are grinding for the score . Right

10:59

, students are grinding for the score

11:01

, but are they thinking about all the other

11:03

things ? Right , that pre-work that I talked about

11:06

? What is that pre-work besides

11:08

just the score that is going to make you competitive

11:11

for a residency program ? You

11:14

know , are our students doing

11:16

that ? And what is that pre-work ? Mm-hmm

11:18

.

11:18

And a lot of students do that on the back end , right ? So the easy

11:21

stuff is extracurricular , right ? That's what

11:23

you get on the application . Now you get a whole

11:25

section . You get to pick your extracurriculars

11:27

now , and now the ERAS application

11:30

highlights the extracurricular activities

11:32

you find the most interesting . So

11:34

now when people get applications , it's not just scrolling

11:37

to the list . They can say , all right , what

11:39

10 things now did you do

11:42

throughout med school and which of these top

11:44

three are the most important to you and why ? Yeah

11:46

, yeah . So you know , you know you played yourself

11:48

, we know you didn't really do nothing , right ? So start

11:51

.

11:51

You can't put start in a podcast or you

11:53

can put the time window .

11:54

Yes , and if you put something

11:56

and it was a month , I was like I'm sorry that

12:00

doesn't register well . Yeah , Like

12:02

if you only did something for a month and that's your most meaningful

12:05

experience , like that's not going to work on the application

12:07

.

12:07

But if you can show a story right Like

12:09

, oh , I was a SNMA member

12:11

my first year , I was chapter

12:14

parliamentary in my second year , national

12:16

parliamentary in my third year , speaker

12:18

of the house the fourth year , they can see

12:20

that like stretch out and then you

12:23

can write all of those things .

12:24

That great , mind you , I want

12:26

everybody to know that that was actually

12:28

Dr Love's SNMA resume

12:30

. It was , it

12:32

was .

12:32

It was , it was . I

12:35

was able to string that along . You can see that story

12:37

of leadership . And it wasn't just like Uche said

12:39

, like oh , I did this for a month . Oh

12:41

yeah , I went to the SNMA community service drive

12:44

every Halloween . Okay , what ?

12:46

you say about it , right , I'll

12:48

tell you if you use all the characters we know you would have

12:50

made this Dr Love

12:53

, how you know my CV . I

12:59

do think it's also important to know that everyone

13:01

comes from a different like kind

13:04

of like place in life and every

13:06

like a different background . Right , like some people

13:08

may thrive in terms of doing like extracurricular

13:11

activities that align with their like passion

13:13

, their goals , others might be like , listen , I'm

13:15

focused on just trying to get through class because I have all

13:17

these other needs I have to do that are priority

13:20

right , whether it be family or support , whatever

13:22

, and I think that's also

13:24

important too , and that can still come across

13:26

very positively in your application

13:28

. But that's where I feel like you need that advisor

13:31

or that mentor early on to be like okay

13:33

, this is what , this is what I'm interested

13:36

in doing . How do I make sure I'm doing aligning

13:38

my pre-work or what I've done thus far

13:41

to really showcase . This is why I would be a strong

13:43

candidate , and whatever specialty I may be , so

13:45

you don't have to be someone because I was not SMA

13:47

anything , whatever she wasn't , but

13:50

let me add her up for a sec .

13:52

You put the word pediatrics in everything

13:55

, and Uche was there .

13:57

You know the .

13:58

Pediatric Association President

14:00

Uche throwing a pediatric residency

14:02

. Fair , uche , you know going to national conferences

14:05

.

14:05

Uche , who's the first one to go to ?

14:06

nationals or not . National Children's national

14:08

.

14:09

And yeah , yeah , whatever your passion , show

14:12

through anything . Pediatrics .

14:14

So that's your passion . Yeah , show

14:16

through and spend the time on that . Right , right

14:18

yeah .

14:21

But don't let your passion be getting

14:23

a 245 .

14:25

Yes , yes , so basically what everybody who's

15:26

listening you're really passionate about something , just

15:28

double down on that .

15:30

You know yes .

15:31

Don't make it up as you go and say , well , I'm going to pick

15:33

up crayon or basket weaving

15:35

and show that off . No like if you're passionate

15:38

about pediatrics and you're not passionate about something else

15:40

. Focus on pediatrics , or what have you ?

15:42

Yeah , yeah .

15:44

And I find a lot of students you're waiting

15:46

for that day you want to see somebody get basketball

15:49

.

15:49

Yes , everyone always makes jokes

15:51

about basketball . I swear one day Go

15:53

show up .

15:54

You know someone's listening right now , like underwater

15:56

, like what Somebody has

15:58

.

16:00

Exactly , I was like I'm pretty sure

16:02

they're out there .

16:05

Me . I

16:07

can't with you anymore . I really just

16:09

can't . Somebody go , come up from underwater

16:12

. You're like yo .

16:13

I'm basket weaving .

16:15

Anywho .

16:16

That's the joke .

16:17

Exactly . Underwater basket weaving is always

16:19

the joke . Somebody can , someone is awesome

16:21

at it , and I'm waiting to see that person .

16:24

Waiting to see him . Yeah , and

16:27

that's really good to know that . It's

16:29

so important . And I'm sure , Dr Uche

16:31

, you see that as part of the application

16:34

process right . So now we're , you know , now , as

16:36

we kind of go through the process , we you're

16:38

looking at applications , saying , okay , well

16:40

, what , what is actually here , what's substance

16:43

here ? And sometimes , you know

16:45

, sometimes students can really

16:47

portray their stories very , very well

16:49

. Other times , you know , it's

16:51

kind of like , well , this chronological

16:54

timeline of just all of the academic

16:57

things that they did , essentially repeating

16:59

their CV almost verbatim

17:01

, but just in a story which really

17:04

doesn't necessarily bode well and

17:06

I it's about as tough though , like

17:09

if you don't have any experience , kind of showcasing

17:12

yourself , right , if you're just , I

17:14

work hard , I study hard .

17:16

Now , in essence , I got a brag

17:18

about myself or at

17:20

least like write an essay or

17:22

something in a fashion that , Like

17:25

I , have to almost like be a mind reader . That's a

17:27

really tough thing , particularly like someone where we

17:29

came from right , Like you know where you like , like

17:32

we don't get taught those type of things , so

17:34

it'll give me a really tough thing to not

17:36

just like have verbal spaghetti and like

17:38

regurgitate your CB .

17:39

Absolutely . You know what I'm saying . Absolutely

17:41

, no , I mean . But but , dr Uche , you mentioned

17:44

also , this is where mentoring comes in . Yes

17:47

, right , yes , this is where mentoring comes in

17:49

. This is where mentoring comes in for sure .

17:51

Yeah , and I will say for honestly , I think

17:54

to give a plug to SNMA and

17:57

Torford University , I was just going to say

17:59

that like those are

18:01

, like those are avenues

18:03

for students , particularly those

18:06

who are of us who are underrepresented

18:08

, consider like historically marginalized whatever

18:10

, that you can access the programs

18:13

through those organizations to really get access

18:15

to mentors , advisors , and ask those

18:17

questions early on too and just

18:19

get the guy or just , or even to just understand

18:21

the process as a whole , right , cause you know

18:24

what you know and you don't know what you don't know

18:26

. Right , so I think it's important to like be

18:28

able to just have that plugin early

18:30

, because then you can like get the

18:32

exposure and be like oh okay , I didn't know I need to like

18:34

raise my application in this way . Or , you

18:36

know , this is how I should like think about my personal

18:38

statement . Or , oh , I didn't realize that's something that

18:40

was a strength of mine . Oh , I can . I can actually

18:42

put that on my application . Right , that's huge

18:44

, and this , yes , right , and that's

18:47

where I feel like it's important to like

18:49

just have people you know and trust that

18:51

you can just rely on me , like , hey , do you

18:53

mind ? Not just me and Tor

18:55

, but just I . Just I want

18:57

, I want to seek advice and I talk to you from

18:59

time to time and just check in . Exactly .

19:01

I want to piggyback off of that Right . Like we always

19:03

joke , that match day is

19:06

the draft for med school and residency right

19:08

yeah , what do you ? Do when

19:10

you know you're going to enter the draft , you go and get an

19:12

agent Right Like that's a good one

19:14

. You don't just show up on your . That's how I'm buying

19:16

everything about self-help . Listen to our show

19:18

I like that .

19:20

Come some good stories . No , dr Love you

19:22

.

19:23

Dr Love , you are encroaching very

19:25

, very closely to something

19:27

that I have kind of on my back burner

19:29

Right Okay .

19:30

Exactly , oh Same

19:32

. So go and get your agent people . Go and get your mentor

19:35

. I kicked off as a co-host .

19:37

Now Dr Love , Dr Love , my co-host

19:39

, my co-host . Yeah , I need a new co-host

19:41

.

19:42

You know it's funny , you mentioned that . Right , and

19:44

I also think it needs to be reversed . Like mentors

19:46

, like if you're listening and you're mentoring a student

19:49

, like have the patience .

19:50

Yes .

19:51

Yeah , and constructive criticism , like

19:53

if you see an essay that , yes , I mean you're 10

19:55

years out or five years out and that essay doesn't

19:57

, you know , keep up to par , so to speak

20:00

. Don't clown them , you know . Support

20:02

them , cause I'll be really honest with you , I

20:04

I didn't tell anybody this , but my medical

20:07

school essay and my residency

20:09

essay was basically a

20:12

version of my high school essay that

20:14

I used to get into college , and I had

20:16

a mentor who helped me get into a summer

20:18

program while I was in high school who said , no

20:21

, you need to rewrite your essay so that you can

20:23

get into this program . And then what I did is I

20:25

used that format to change into a college

20:27

admission essay , and

20:29

then I was doing the same thing , not talking to anybody

20:31

, and so in four years I

20:33

just never updated it , then another four years , I

20:36

rate . So for me , I was just working with

20:38

this outdated essay , but it

20:40

worked once well , not work again . And

20:42

I felt a little embarrassed to kind of talk to

20:44

people and say , hey , can you help me with my

20:46

writing ? Like I don't know if I'm writing

20:48

something . Okay , that's what I'm talking about

20:51

, you know just to have someone say okay

20:53

, let me take a look . You know , maybe

20:55

we should change this . Maybe you need

20:57

to talk more about this extracurricular

20:59

activity or maybe tell us more about

21:01

your story . Those are the type of things the

21:03

reps that I think a mentor can really help out at

21:06

, because there's a lot of people floating around , you

21:08

know , with those type of stories .

21:09

Yeah , oh , I

21:12

mean , it becomes very , very

21:14

challenging to know what , like

21:16

you said , what you don't know , especially

21:19

if it worked before and you think

21:21

it's gonna work again . So , you

21:23

know . Now let's talk also

21:26

about now that

21:28

you've applied . You've gone to the draft

21:30

day . You up , you

21:32

up , it's time for the draft . You

21:34

open that email . For us it was open to envelope

21:36

. I don't know if they still send out envelopes .

21:38

Some schools do , I guess .

21:40

Howard Bates Okay , howard College of

21:43

Medicine does so

21:46

. You open up your envelope , open up your email and

21:49

you ain't get in .

21:50

What do you think of that point , though ?

21:52

No no , no , I'm talking about

21:54

the actual day , like that . What is it

21:56

the Wednesday or the Monday ? What is it Monday

21:58

?

21:58

The Monday right .

21:59

The Monday is when you find out whether or not you

22:01

actually got in . Then by the Friday

22:04

you find out where you're going , when

22:06

you match .

22:06

remember that's when you're in a suit that still

22:08

has the tag on it , because you're like I gotta take it back . Got

22:11

it Right

22:13

?

22:13

right Now so you didn't

22:15

get in right . I'm gonna tell

22:17

you something Two years ago

22:20

, the match that happened two years ago , I

22:22

had no less than about five

22:25

or six un-matched

22:27

students who called me , and

22:30

of those five or six , only

22:33

one of them was I am . The others were

22:35

OBGYN . Now I

22:38

wanna tell you that there

22:40

was a very weird trend

22:43

going on at that time that

22:45

I figured out because everyone

22:47

was saying well , I don't know , maybe

22:49

I should do an extra year

22:52

at my school and do

22:54

a research program and then reapply

22:56

, and I was like why is every

22:58

single one of you telling me Every single

23:00

one , Actually , you're in med school ? Yes , every

23:03

single one . There was a post

23:05

on Instagram

23:07

, TikTok , something where somebody did

23:09

that and they had all watched that

23:11

post . These are people who didn't know each other . They

23:14

had all watched that post and somebody

23:16

posted that they stayed an extra

23:19

year and then reapplied

23:22

and then they got in . So everybody was like that's

23:24

the ticket .

23:25

How do you do that Like ? I'm gonna tell you why

23:27

.

23:27

I'm gonna shoot a T . Yeah , I'll tell you I'm gonna get your

23:29

help .

23:29

No , no , no , no , no , no , no , no sure Tell me about that .

23:31

What was that ?

23:33

The theory on and hopefully she can sign light on the

23:35

theory because she's behind the closed door . But

23:37

the theory on this side of the door in Reddit

23:40

and on all the mentor applications

23:42

or mentor spaces , is

23:45

that when you apply to residency , you

23:47

look better when you are not

23:49

a graduate of medical school versus

23:52

a graduate reapplying Because

23:55

you already have an MDDO

23:57

degree . There are some schools

24:00

theoretically I don't know , I can't say they

24:02

have filters on people who have their

24:04

degree already . So , when you're a student

24:07

. They look at you as a student

24:09

still . So , even though you could have graduated

24:11

, you say no , I'm gonna take this research year . Your

24:14

school does not confer on you that

24:16

MD degree or DO degree . You

24:18

go back and you reapply in the

24:20

match again as a student . Therefore

24:23

, you're not reapplying as a graduate and

24:25

it's thought that you look better when

24:27

you're applying as a student . Now kick it to someone

24:29

on that side of the door .

24:30

I just wish I would say , you would say you , I need

24:32

to know .

24:33

I think there's some stats behind it and I think there's

24:35

also some kind of general background

24:37

. So I think the caveat is that there

24:39

is data through NRMP

24:41

that shows that there's a

24:43

higher match rate into certain specialties

24:46

if you are a graduating

24:48

, fourth year or graduating student , as opposed

24:50

to you were already graduated

24:53

and now you've completed your degree

24:55

. So the stats show that Part of that is large

24:57

population data , right , but it doesn't necessarily

24:59

mean that that's the best fit for you as an

25:01

individual . So I think that's again

25:03

, I'm gonna say it again mentorship . That's

25:06

where you connect with those people to talk about okay

25:08

, this is what's happened . Let me talk about from a personalized

25:10

standpoint , what's gonna be best for me in

25:12

terms of reapplying next

25:14

year , if that's what I wanna do , et cetera . And

25:18

do I stay on another year , knowing

25:20

the pros and cons of extending

25:22

your medical career and more loans and

25:24

et cetera ? I think the other

25:26

thing to take into account is for

25:29

and I'll just speak from my personal lens like I think it's

25:31

important to know that when you're transitioning

25:33

into a residency program that you haven't had a long

25:35

time away from clinical

25:38

medicine , right ? So I think your

25:40

letters whether you

25:42

didn't match this year you're reapplying this year , you

25:44

still wanna have letters that speak to your clinical acumen

25:47

, like how skillful you are in that regard

25:49

and knowing that you can transition well . So

25:52

it is important to keep

25:54

that in mind too if you are planning

25:56

to reapply . I think , whether

25:58

you decided to do a research year , whether you decide to do whatever

26:00

that gap may consist

26:03

of like knowing that you still have some

26:05

connection to clinical activity , observation

26:08

, participation , so that you can

26:10

have letters whether it be from

26:12

your prior letter writers or , more

26:14

than likely , you need at least one from like during

26:17

that gap year as well that hopefully can reflect

26:19

on you as an individual

26:21

growth potential , et cetera . So

26:23

that's kind of the . That's my

26:25

understanding . I think , there's actually

26:27

data that kind of shows like oh

26:29

, it's probably a higher likelihood

26:32

for me to match if I'm still

26:34

a graduating student as opposed

26:36

to graduated .

26:38

Right , right , that's a big price . Yeah

26:40

, that's what I was gonna say , cause that's a lot

26:43

of just to do a research year .

26:44

Okay , do you wanna talk about the money ? I

26:47

was wrong talking about the money , because these

26:49

students pop up and the reason why

26:52

tends to be a big deal , right ? So

26:54

I'm going to tell you one of the students I worked

26:56

with last year and then I'll tell about one

26:59

year before . So the one last year had

27:01

not passed step two . So my

27:03

recommendation was you need to grind for

27:05

two months doing nothing . So if

27:07

you stay a student , you can get those student

27:09

loans up front . You know your rent is covered

27:11

, your food is covered , you can graduate

27:14

later on , and that was

27:16

my advice to him . Even though

27:18

that price tag adds on a year , you

27:20

don't have to worry about it . You can do nothing

27:22

, you're fine . Another

27:24

student I worked with in the past just didn't

27:27

match . So I was like all right

27:29

, do you know anything else you

27:31

can do ? Yeah , a buddy of mine says he

27:33

can get me a research position . All right , we'll

27:35

graduate . Stop taking those loans , go

27:37

earn money as a physician , technically

27:39

, do that research and then reapply

27:42

. So it just depends , as Jay said

27:44

, what do you need to do ?

27:46

Yeah , yeah , because I felt like that

27:48

year there was like a one

27:51

size fits all kind of approach

27:53

with every single one of these students

27:55

who obviously were not all in

27:57

the same boat . They weren't even applying all to the same

27:59

type of residency programs , right

28:01

, Social media could be dangerous right , oh yeah

28:03

, in one way .

28:04

You want social media to

28:07

inform people , as many people as possible

28:09

, about all the opportunities . And then , if they get

28:11

stuck on that , one little piece of advice we

28:14

talk about student doctor network all over again . That

28:17

is the form that shall remain nameless

28:19

.

28:20

Yeah , yeah , yeah yeah

28:22

.

28:23

But yeah , I mean the financial

28:25

implications of just that

28:27

decision in and of itself is

28:30

just . You know , it's just crazy

28:32

, especially if you

28:35

fall into a category where you

28:37

didn't actually have to do that , like your second

28:39

student , right . You don't absolutely

28:41

have to do something like that . The

28:45

other part of it , when we're talking about the money

28:47

, is even applying

28:50

to residency , because you know that's hella

28:52

expensive , yeah , Hella

28:54

expensive , right . And

28:58

we did a presentation for NRMP

29:01

a couple of years ago and

29:03

one of the parts of our presentation

29:05

oh , you'll appreciate this , Dr Uche it

29:07

was in pediatrics . There

29:09

were some stats that

29:12

showed that people who apply

29:15

to pediatric programs , if

29:17

they apply to 13

29:20

or more programs

29:22

or , excuse me , if they apply to more than 13

29:24

programs , that their chances of getting

29:26

into a residency program

29:29

did not improve significantly at

29:31

all . And

29:33

which is really interesting , because

29:35

I will tell you the number

29:37

of people , including myself and this man

29:40

standing right next to me , who applied

29:42

to like 40 plus programs

29:44

. I mean that's

29:46

a lot of money to

29:49

you know , throw into

29:51

your , throw into your education

29:54

. And my thing is

29:56

my question is especially

29:59

on your side , Dr Uche is

30:01

you're getting so many applications

30:03

. What would you say is

30:05

the percentage of applicants

30:08

that you're even offering interviews

30:10

to right , Because I don't necessarily

30:12

think people are thinking about that Like , yeah

30:14

, I'm gonna put out 40 applications

30:16

, 50 , 70 applications , but

30:18

how many people ? Or what's the percentage of

30:20

people that these residency programs

30:23

are even offering interviews

30:25

to , because you ain't got room for everybody ?

30:27

No , you don't , you don't . And now that we've

30:29

transitioned to virtual , I think , which makes

30:31

it maybe scheduling a little bit easier , you're

30:34

not doing that , maybe doing a little bit more

30:36

. So I want to say the ratio , and this is just me guesstimating

30:39

, but I want to say it's like one

30:42

, like for every residency slot that

30:44

you have , you want to interview X

30:46

amount of number to ensure the probability

30:48

as high that you fill all your your slots

30:50

right . And so say , if you have 20

30:52

programs or

30:54

20 slots , you want to interview at least

30:56

, I want to say at least eight applicants

30:59

per slot right

31:01

so like eight to 10 is kind of the number I'm thinking in my

31:03

head , just based off of some of the numbers I've

31:05

seen . So , yeah

31:07

, so if you but you're an approach , take , for example

31:10

, internal medicine right . Internal medicine programs see a lot

31:12

of applicants that come through and so they're in

31:14

the order of thousands . But

31:16

if you only have 30 slots , right

31:19

and max , you're probably gonna be interviewing

31:21

300 , 350 . So

31:23

like you have two , 3000 people

31:26

who applied , you're only getting like a fraction

31:28

of those who are going to interview . So

31:31

it's , it's . Yeah , I mean it can be challenging

31:33

. Now there are a lot of changes with ERAS

31:36

, with program signaling

31:38

which basically says that like I'm

31:40

kind of designating you as a program

31:42

that I'm interested in , would like to go to

31:45

. Is that the token . In every specialty

31:47

, rather , it's

31:49

not the token . The e-Rise token is to be able to apply

31:51

into e-Rise , which I don't really understand

31:54

, okay , okay . It should be like this register . It's like

31:56

a token , like a registration token , gotcha

31:58

. But like signaling is like when

32:00

I apply to say I'm applying to 20

32:02

programs , but in pediatrics you're

32:04

allowed to signal up to five

32:07

programs that are your top priority

32:09

programs . So you signal them and that gives

32:11

them an indication that like oh no , I really am out of

32:13

all the programs I'm applying , I'm considering you

32:16

one of my top five and

32:18

I want you to know that . And then programs

32:20

can utilize that information if they wish

32:22

to kind of help prioritize how they

32:24

want those they want to interview .

32:26

Yeah .

32:27

The very little signaling was supposed to take the old

32:29

hey , you're my number .

32:31

One email you're my number one email you're supposed to

32:33

send out .

32:34

The signaling was supposed to take that out . It still happens

32:36

.

32:36

It still happens . How seriously

32:38

is signaling do you think ? Like

32:41

, how seriously are programs taking signaling

32:44

?

32:44

I think programs are taking it serious

32:46

. Because I think again , because of the changes

32:48

with like , step one and like and

32:50

I'll be very honest , like I'm a huge proponent of holistic

32:53

application review , like looking at more of the

32:55

holistic picture of an applicant as opposed to like

32:57

just certain numbers and metrics , it's

33:00

another data

33:02

point to signal whether or not

33:04

someone may be interested in coming right

33:07

. It's not the only thing right that was

33:09

going to designate whether or not you come or get come

33:11

for an interview or not , but it's just an additional

33:13

data point . It shows the interest

33:15

and engagement and , depending on the program , the specialty

33:18

, the location , things like that that

33:20

can carry , carry a lot of weight .

33:22

We have a friend who's a program director . I won't put

33:24

them on blast because I don't need their numbers to go up . He

33:30

said she interviews everyone who signals

33:32

the program , unless your application is just trash

33:34

. But if you have a standard , regular

33:37

application and you signal , you'll get an application . You'll

33:39

get an interview invite .

33:40

Okay , so that's good to know

33:42

, that's good to know . So at

33:45

least you're putting that particular resource

33:47

to good use , because

33:49

before it was just a free-for-all and , like you said

33:51

, everybody was like you're my number one . It

33:54

was like a horrible , horrible bachelor's

33:56

day in scene . You know what I'm saying .

33:58

Does signaling cost more money ? Nope

34:00

, no , yeah

34:03

, and it varies for a specialty too .

34:05

Some specialties , like I'm

34:07

, forgetting Like .

34:08

OB had gold and silver signaling and it's

34:10

like that's like .

34:11

Order of like 10 to 20 . I can't remember

34:14

exactly , but yeah , as opposed

34:16

to like I'd mentioned , like pediatrics and other specialties

34:18

. So it just depends .

34:19

Yeah , yeah , okay , that's

34:23

good to know Because I

34:25

think , yeah , having that resource

34:27

one might actually help to

34:29

decrease the number of

34:32

programs that people are applying to which

34:34

might actually help them to save a little

34:36

bit of money . I hope , I would

34:38

hope , I would hope that I would hope that

34:40

. I mean , I'm not sure what

34:42

the stats are on that . I guess NRMP will kind of

34:45

figure that out . You know , do like the five year and then the 10 year

34:47

and then the 15 year .

34:47

I'll be curious to know what . I'll be curious to know what the trend

34:49

is , I will say , with transition

34:51

, with the transition and virtual . I've seen

34:54

, like I've seen , the numbers

34:56

go up in terms of applications .

34:59

Like if you're in a highly competitive place

35:01

, though I'm sure everybody who's applying is signaling

35:03

Exactly . Like

35:06

if you're at Harvard or if you're at another like well to do

35:08

establishment , whatever the specialty is , people want to say

35:10

you're my like . How do you even distinguish from that

35:12

? So I don't think the Harvard has

35:14

always had those problems right .

35:16

It's the smaller places , like where our friend is a

35:18

program director like doesn't get as

35:20

many . So when you do signal like

35:22

you only let's use P's . You only have seven . If

35:25

you use one of your seven , I'm going to go back to what I used

35:27

in my in the last episode six or seven . I'm

35:29

going to use the state I used in my last episode

35:31

, even though I like that state . If you're in Idaho and

35:34

you get one of those six like

35:36

signals , you're like , oh , you

35:38

must really rock with us to come out to Idaho and

35:40

be your top six . So yeah , it matters

35:42

there . Yes , harvard probably

35:44

. Harvard probably wonders why you didn't signal them like you

35:46

didn't signal , exactly , you

35:51

know that's how . Harvard uses signaling

35:54

.

35:55

Yeah , don't signal . Yeah , that'll make them like

35:57

you more .

35:57

There it is Okay , it's toxic

36:00

yeah . So , toxic academics

36:02

.

36:03

I would say the best change of

36:05

all eras from when we

36:08

were in it To now . It's not even

36:10

on the student side , I think it's on the program

36:12

side . Certain specialties

36:14

like OB have instituted

36:16

dates where they will tell applicants

36:19

we are sending out interviews on this date

36:21

and we're sending out interviews on this date

36:23

. If you don't get an interview from us on one of

36:25

these two dates , you probably know you ain't coming Exactly

36:28

. So I think that has allowed some students

36:30

to realize oh , I have two OB

36:33

interviews by the end of the season . I

36:35

might need to check that family route right quick

36:37

and people have been able to pivot a little

36:40

bit more than we have in the past , just hoping

36:42

on a wish and a prayer .

36:44

And that's the one thing that I always

36:46

say to Renee , because I know

36:48

a couple of people who and

36:50

you probably know some people who

36:52

have graduated from medical school don't have

36:54

a place to match . They may do a traditional

36:56

internship or a rotating internship , depending

36:59

on MDDO route , and then they

37:01

still can't match . And then maybe they go

37:03

several years not matching and

37:05

they're just struggling in silence . Everybody knows , right

37:07

, and I just think that is one

37:09

of the saddest thing to have this type of professional

37:12

degree and not either be able

37:14

to train or not be able to use your degree

37:16

, but you have hella debt , right

37:19

? Yeah , I just I never understood

37:21

that , right , like there's got to be another

37:23

way , there's got to be multiple layers

37:25

to make sure that whoever graduates with

37:27

either MD or DO , that

37:29

they can do something productive in the healthcare

37:32

system , whether they match

37:34

or not . And I just I struggle with that because we know

37:36

somebody who's gone . Now , what

37:38

? Seven years now ?

37:42

At least Seven years it's probably more

37:44

Going

37:47

from traditional internship to house officer House

37:50

officer . Yeah .

37:51

House officer . Now the person is trying to get

37:53

into a really hard sub

37:56

specialty or residency and we're just like yo , you need

37:58

to consider something that's a little

38:00

bit more realistic

38:02

, and they're like no . But

38:04

also , at the same time , we've seen the opposite

38:07

, too , where people are like yeah , I'm going to consider something that's a little

38:09

bit more realistic from a specialty standpoint

38:11

or residency standpoint , and they still can't get in

38:13

.

38:13

Right .

38:14

And .

38:14

I'm sure a lot of FMGs can you know

38:16

they understand what we're talking about , like wait how is it

38:18

that they can't get a job Like you have to get

38:20

these folks a job Somehow , some way

38:22

.

38:23

Yeah , you know , you

38:25

so kind of you guys segwayed

38:27

into the career

38:30

path change right that people

38:32

. So there there's the career path

38:34

that people say , okay

38:37

, I'm just going to change , right , Like I got into

38:39

this residency program , I don't

38:41

be here no more . This sucks

38:43

, you know , I don't want to do this specialty

38:45

anymore . And then there's the involuntary

38:47

change , meaning

38:50

you either didn't match or you

38:52

matched but you got

38:54

kicked out . And

38:56

though , like those things can

38:58

be one very differently

39:01

navigated because

39:03

they hit you differently , but

39:06

two , like like me , was talking

39:08

about , if it , if there is

39:10

, if there is a an

39:12

issue with trying to figure out how

39:14

to get back into or how

39:16

to even enter training

39:19

, then you're stuck in this conundrum

39:21

because oftentimes people

39:23

don't tell other people that they are stuck

39:26

there . And that goes back to the mentoring

39:28

that you were talking about . Again , dr Uche

39:30

, with you know , listen talking

39:32

to your mentors , identifying a mentor , but

39:34

also be very realistic about

39:37

what the mentor is telling you . You know

39:39

if you want to get into a very competitive program

39:42

. But you've been out eight years

39:44

. Let's kind of talk about

39:46

you . Know what's going on , do you

39:48

? Have you seen , dr Uche , because

39:50

you are the assistant

39:52

program director what is the approach

39:55

to those residents

39:57

or those medical grads who

39:59

may either have matched or

40:01

left their programs , or

40:03

the non-traditional one , or got kicked

40:06

out , right ? And the reason

40:08

I'm not using non-traditional is only

40:10

because the non-traditional is so

40:12

different in each one of those cases

40:15

, you know . So

40:17

I mean what ? What's your approach ? Or

40:19

are you even seeing a lot of that ?

40:22

So I can't speak from my

40:24

own professional exposure

40:26

. I can speak

40:29

from more personal exposure with

40:31

friends , colleagues and stuff who've gone through this process

40:33

. And you're right , it's

40:36

different for everyone and it's like again

40:38

you have to take this kind of personalized approach

40:40

, really assess and say , okay , do

40:44

I want to do this , Do I

40:46

want to go back ? If

40:48

I do want to go back , what

40:50

does that process look like ? Do I find

40:53

an open spot elsewhere ? Do

40:56

I reapply , depending on what year you're

40:58

in in the training

41:00

? Do I consider

41:02

another career path altogether

41:04

? And I think it's also complicated

41:07

by the fact of where you are in life , Like

41:09

what are the other things that are going on that

41:11

you need to be mindful of and taken to

41:13

that equation when making that decision

41:15

, Like what opportunities

41:18

are available ? right Like it

41:20

might be , if we're talking about , we'll

41:23

say I use internal medicine because there's so many number

41:26

of programs and lots available

41:28

yeah it may be available to

41:30

do that right To transition to another place

41:32

elsewhere , but for

41:34

a more competitive , limited number

41:37

of slot specialty that may not be the

41:39

case . So then I don't know . I think it takes

41:41

a lot of soul searching . I think it takes a lot of introspection

41:45

. I think it is a very

41:47

challenging decision and for

41:49

those who I know have gone through

41:51

that pathway I know those who've been able

41:53

to get back in . I know those who have

41:55

not and have decided upon

41:57

a different path and

42:00

are completely happy and living

42:02

their best life . So it just depends on

42:04

what you feel

42:06

passionate about and what you're willing to , kind of

42:08

like , commit to and do .

42:11

Because I feel like you usually have like your three

42:13

big reasons right . Big reason

42:15

number one you did not pass

42:17

some marker that the program

42:20

puts in front of you right , I'll use step three as

42:22

a general example . So you got

42:24

removed from your program . Usually it's

42:26

easier to reapply there . The program director

42:28

is the program still likes you . It's just like , look , they

42:30

couldn't pass it . If they can pass it now , somebody

42:33

else should take them . That's real easy . Number

42:35

two you didn't pass rotations

42:37

within your program . That's a little harder , that's

42:40

a little different . Right , that means

42:42

you didn't pass and someone failed you on

42:44

purpose within that program . So now you

42:46

get to ask for letters from that program to go

42:48

somewhere else and you failed . So those when

42:50

it's like that sometimes , it's usually like you really

42:52

may want to switch specialties . And

42:55

then number three is like you

42:57

get moved out because you harmed

42:59

a patient , right Like if it's a serious harm in

43:01

the program that you go . That again can

43:03

be a little difficult to navigate because if

43:06

they have to report that that's gonna follow

43:08

you no matter what you do as a physician . So

43:11

those are the three big categories I've kind of encountered

43:13

in , you know .

43:14

I will also add to that . I think it's

43:17

not always because I always lump

43:19

those into like , that process of like . So

43:22

we're not remediation , but maybe you

43:24

guys are understanding what I'm saying . Like where

43:26

you encountered some type of

43:28

like process in the kind of matriculation

43:31

process through training , right , like

43:33

some interruption where you didn't meet the marker or

43:35

didn't meet the score or whatever that may

43:37

be . But there are

43:40

situations where life outside of

43:42

you know , residency changes and

43:44

you're like , well , I can't continue because now

43:46

this life thing has changed and I

43:49

need to either pivot , like

43:51

step away , maybe come back . And

43:53

for me , you know I interact with a lot of

43:55

people who are starting families . So

43:57

like , sometimes obviously residency should

43:59

accommodate or parental leave

44:01

and et cetera for having children . But

44:04

I know of people because around

44:06

like family planning or whatever that may be

44:08

around family , close family , that they had

44:10

to stop , they had to step away . And

44:13

so the question is obviously

44:15

, like you know , jobs , institutions , program

44:18

should be able to allow for you to take that FMLA

44:20

. That's stopping . And come back , but if it's something

44:23

that's gonna be more permanent , prolonged you

44:25

know prolonged or like I need to like

44:27

move you know like I can't stay here

44:29

, what does that look like , you know , and

44:32

so making that decision , you know , is

44:35

also very equally hard .

44:37

Yeah , and the financial implications of all

44:39

of that ? Right , because you

44:42

know very likely chance that you're gonna have student

44:44

loans , you know , and

44:46

whatever you know , whatever job you're

44:48

going to get , it is very likely that

44:50

is not going to be , you know

44:52

, paid high enough for you to be able to

44:55

just zip through your loans . And

44:57

so you know you feel the financial burden

44:59

of that as well . And you talked about

45:01

introspection and that made me think of

45:03

that , made me

45:05

think of a colleague of mine years ago

45:08

who spent seven years trying

45:10

to get into a residency program he had

45:12

never actually matched . He

45:15

was interested in a program in

45:17

a specialty that was , I would

45:19

say , semi-competitive I mean it was

45:21

, you know , one of the top competitive ones but

45:25

then kind of went , you know , went

45:27

his way like , navigated through different

45:29

specialties in

45:32

terms of applying every single year for

45:34

about seven years and about year

45:36

six , year six he contacted

45:39

me because he had graduated only the year

45:41

after I did . I didn't realize

45:43

that he was not in residency , and

45:45

so when I found out he wasn't in residency

45:48

, I was like , oh my gosh , like who's helping

45:50

you through this ? He was like I

45:52

was doing this on my own , contacted

45:54

my mentor and was like listen , I need you to

45:56

help me navigate this because

45:59

I don't even know . You know , I don't

46:01

even know anything about this . Now

46:03

one of the things that we talked about

46:05

was when

46:08

you go to an interview

46:10

, because he was getting interviews , he

46:12

was getting interviews . Yeah , you see how

46:14

your face just went , yeah .

46:16

I did because it's like you know , okay , so then

46:18

that's interesting , right , that's a ding

46:20

, ding ding .

46:21

Yeah , so he's getting interviews . Finally

46:24

, I was like you need to tell me about

46:26

one of your last interviews . Yeah

46:29

, and

46:31

I won't put the whole story out there , belong

46:33

story short . The conclusion

46:36

that I came to , and that my

46:38

mentor came to listen into this same

46:40

story , was that you

46:42

are cocky , you're

46:47

cocky and this is why you're not getting

46:49

into residency . Now

46:51

his response to me was

46:53

you're reaching , you're

46:56

reaching , and I'm like I'm not reaching . I

46:59

went and I had to tell him I went through

47:01

residency . You didn't

47:03

. And I know that if you approached

47:05

my residency program , the residents

47:07

in my program , in the way that you approach

47:09

those residents , we

47:11

would Annihilate you

47:14

and just be like done , go to the

47:16

program director and be like we don't want to work with

47:18

this person . So introspection

47:21

, what are you doing

47:23

, especially if you're getting interviews

47:25

? How are you navigating ? Your

47:27

own Personality

47:29

, I guess , is kind of the way to think

47:32

about it , right , like , how are you navigating

47:34

? Do this process Beyond

47:36

just the ? You know , I

47:38

check this box and I pass the

47:40

step three . I check this box

47:42

and I still have clinical experience . It's like

47:45

listen , check boxes ain't gonna get you

47:47

everywhere . You have to

47:49

say you , you got to learn how

47:51

to relate to people . Um , and

47:53

sometimes I think , sometimes I think we're

47:55

a little bit reserved , even as mentors

47:57

, and telling people like , dude , your personality

47:59

kind of sucks , you know , and

48:02

if that's the problem , then I think and I

48:04

think I don't think that that's the problem

48:06

for most people , but I think if

48:08

that is the problem , especially if you have

48:10

a very extended gap , I

48:13

think that's something that needs to be explored

48:15

and it needs to be approached very

48:17

directly , you know . So

48:20

, um , I just thought that that was interesting

48:22

because you talked about introspection , but

48:25

I wanted people to know it goes beyond

48:27

just . Well , what steps did I take

48:29

?

48:30

Yes , yes , yes , and that's why certain

48:33

people we recommend .

48:34

You know , and I know you know a lot about this dr Rene

48:37

mock interviews you please sit

48:39

down with somebody . Talk , let's

48:41

let's see what your setup looks like , let's see how this goes

48:43

Um , let's see how you come off . And I

48:45

tell people all the time because they're like , oh , you know , I

48:47

want to be myself 100% of the time . Uh

48:49

, I don't want no program that don't want me . I

48:52

get that , I understand that , but

48:54

they're also making one of these decisions and

48:56

you need to treat all of these like first dates , you know

48:58

, you know you know show up to first dates and

49:00

sweats , even though you're more comfortable , like that

49:02

right , like you dress up . This is very , very

49:04

similar .

49:05

Right , yeah , bring the best parts of you

49:07

.

49:08

Yes you know , it's .

49:09

It's okay . You know that you got we all got

49:11

parts of us that aren't the best , yes

49:13

, but you know that's not . That's not the thing

49:15

that you actually want to showcase first

49:17

.

49:18

You know what I ?

49:19

mean . So I think that that's really important

49:21

for people to understand . Now , for those of you

49:23

who are not watching dr D , stepped

49:25

away again .

49:27

You already know who it is .

49:28

It's your boy . So

49:32

I have hijacked the show again

49:34

. But

49:37

no , I really enjoyed this , this

49:39

discussion , um , because , like

49:41

I said in the beginning , we talk a lot

49:43

about careers in

49:46

this , you know , in this Um podcast

49:48

, and I think it's important for people

49:50

who are listening , who are either , you

49:52

know , medical students getting ready to graduate

49:55

or residents , to understand

49:57

that the end of the road doesn't stop

49:59

because you don't match . The end of the road doesn't

50:01

stop because you might have to have

50:03

a career Change

50:06

, because you had to change to another

50:08

specialty or go to another program , like

50:11

these are not ends , ends of the

50:13

world or ends of the road for you . But

50:15

I think the most important thing that you can leave

50:17

with here today is to understand that

50:19

you need to get some mentoring . Yeah

50:22

, you know you really need to get some mentoring

50:24

and again , you need to do that introspection

50:26

to figure out how are you Potentially

50:29

anyway contributing ? How is you

50:31

know , maybe the the stars didn't align

50:33

, but if your , if your gap is getting

50:35

Way bigger , you

50:38

know , then you have to start thinking

50:40

about what potentially could you be contributing

50:42

to make your situation not as

50:44

desirable as you want it to be ? Um

50:47

, so please understand that . Um

50:49

, the other thing is your resources . We

50:51

talked a lot here about the student national

50:53

medical association and

50:56

One of the things I will tell you

50:58

all that if I have a student

51:00

who doesn't match or who's afraid

51:03

that they might not match , that's another thing . Preempt

51:05

, you know , pre , preempt just tells

51:07

people yeah . We

51:10

ain't got to be reactive . What about preventive medicine

51:12

?

51:12

You know , Before

51:17

match day yeah

51:20

, Give yourself some proof

51:22

.

51:22

You know preventive academics , you know

51:24

. I'm saying you know , and

51:27

I tell every student I'm like , listen , if

51:29

you think this is going to be a problem , you

51:31

need to go to every single booth at

51:33

the s and m a conference which

51:35

, by the way , this year is going to be in

51:37

new Orleans . Do you know ?

51:39

the dates . Love you know the dates . Uh , I

51:41

always say Easter weekend , that way I don't miss it . I'm missing

51:43

the weekend .

51:43

There you go , there you go . It's the weekend , the

51:45

Wednesday , thursday .

51:46

Friday , saturday , sunday , easter ending on March

51:48

30th , 34th , yes , yes

51:50

, the last .

51:51

It's the last weekend in March this year . So

51:53

you know , if you're out there and you're like I don't

51:56

know , I didn't pass step One

51:58

or I didn't pass step two or whatever , if

52:00

you think you have an academic issue , even

52:03

if you are not yet Graduating

52:06

, preemptively Start talking

52:08

with people and figuring out you

52:10

know what kinds of programs will look at you

52:12

, um , and don't go up there and just get

52:14

like information on their program . They

52:17

don't know you . You got to get them to

52:19

know you . Right , it's people always who

52:21

you know . It's like no , it's who knows you .

52:23

So yeah , exactly , and . I will say

52:25

, to hype it up again , march 28

52:28

through 31st , if you think it's not

52:30

that good , it's not that bad sold

52:32

out . The booths

52:34

are sold out for

52:37

the residency , for the med schools and

52:39

for the residency programs . So if

52:42

you're a pre-med and you're like I don't

52:44

know , this is worth it again . We

52:47

are sold out . There are programs on a waitlist

52:49

coming to talk to students at our conference

52:52

For those in med school thinking they want to

52:54

get into residency . We are sold out

52:56

, right ? Schools are having to coalesce

52:59

into one just to have enough

53:01

space , right ? Certain people

53:04

have a lot of space shout out to north western

53:06

, you know . But

53:12

whatever specialty you want north western gonna have a person

53:14

there , right ? That is

53:16

what I'm saying . So , like dr Renee said

53:18

, if you even think , man , I may

53:20

need someone on the inside to help my application

53:22

across the finish line , this is where you meet that person

53:25

. You get them your business card , your linkedin website

53:27

, get across that finish line .

53:29

Exactly same thing for the pre-med students

53:31

. You know love dr Love

53:33

just mentioned you know the pre-med Exhibitor

53:36

fair is sold out

53:38

, which means all

53:40

of the spaces for all the possible

53:42

medical schools that can be there . I

53:44

mean , they're all taken up . So that means

53:47

that you need to get on

53:49

down to new orleans and

53:51

figure out how you're going to get through

53:53

every single one of

53:55

those schools and prepare

53:57

your spiel . You know , talk to your mentors

54:00

before you go so that you know exactly

54:02

what you're going to do , exactly what you're going to say . Um

54:05

, we're gonna be out there also , docs outside

54:07

the box . We're gonna be out there as well Doing

54:09

a couple of episodes , maybe some carpet interviews

54:12

. So if you want to chat with us , we'll be there

54:14

, um , but I I definitely

54:17

encourage all of you Again

54:19

, because we're so focused on careers

54:21

on this podcast , to get

54:24

out there and do what you possibly

54:26

can to move your Career

54:28

in the direction that you want it to go .

54:31

So a little sunshine out there just a little bit , yeah

54:33

, yeah get into residency

54:35

, because on the other side the doctor

54:38

, some of the box , said a

54:40

hundred times I'm

54:42

making a hundred One that

54:44

when you get through residency , that's when people start

54:47

begging for you . All right , those

54:49

Chow

54:52

. Let's see . Actress

54:54

, whatever social tea you want , you're probably

54:56

gonna get it . Um , because

54:58

the numbers are in your favor

55:01

. You want to do child immunology ? Go ahead

55:03

. You want to come down to Nashville ? There

55:05

are whole peas fellowships waiting for you

55:07

. Child Nephology wants you . Um

55:09

, so just when you get

55:12

to the other side , you

55:14

are , you are the highlight .

55:15

So just make it through people . We're here to help

55:17

you through that . Yeah yeah that that

55:19

that is a great thing to end on is

55:21

that you are definitely going

55:23

to be wanted . Ain't . No more begging . The

55:27

begging is over .

55:28

Yes .

55:30

Because the odds are ever in your favor .

55:35

So get your key sweat on right now .

55:42

Well , thank you so much , dr Uche . Dr

55:44

Love , dr , love , love having

55:46

you here . I wasn't here with you the last time , so

55:49

this was really fun for me . Um

55:51

, dr Uche , this is the first time we're actually meeting

55:53

. I know , like you know , talking

55:55

to each other , yes , yeah , yeah

55:57

so , but I enjoyed

55:59

having you both on this was such

56:02

a great topic To discuss

56:04

and especially your expertise as

56:06

an assistant program director . We really

56:08

, really appreciate that and I hope

56:10

people you know take everything

56:12

that we've talked about today and

56:15

hopefully apply it however you can to your situation

56:17

. So we will see you at the

56:19

s and m a conference East of weekend

56:22

. People , we're gonna say

56:24

peace , peace .