0:01

Did you know Locum's Docs make , on

0:03

average , 33% more than

0:05

employed docs ? Got your

0:07

attention now . So if

0:09

you're considering Locum tenants , either full-time

0:12

or on the side , you probably have

0:14

a question or two , or

0:16

maybe even 20 . Locumstorycom

0:19

is packed with unbiased information and

0:21

tools to see what the trends are

0:23

in your specialty and even make a decision

0:26

if locums is right for you . My

0:28

advice make locumstorycom

0:31

the go-to place to learn more about

0:33

locum tenants . That's locumstorycom

0:37

. What's

0:40

good everyone . Welcome to another episode of Docs

0:42

Outside the Box . I'm the host , dr Neum , joined

0:44

by Dr Renee . Hey

0:47

, so listen , if you can tell by the background

0:49

, there's some background noise . If you're watching on YouTube

0:51

, shout out to everybody who's watching us on YouTube . You

0:54

can see that we're in a different environment . We've

0:56

got people walking around hustling and bustling in

0:58

the background , so we're not at home . It's

1:01

called a conference . It's called a conference

1:03

, that's right . Hey , everybody , we

1:11

are at the AACOM , the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine

1:13

. They're having their education or educating leaders annual conference

1:16

. We were part of

1:18

the first ever Metta Christie

1:20

panel . If you don't know , metta Christiei

1:22

DO is the first African-American

1:25

osteopathic graduate in the United States

1:27

and we were on

1:29

this panel yesterday for about an hour

1:31

. It was me and you , as well as two

1:34

osteopathic medical students , and we were talking

1:36

about diversity , equity

1:39

and inclusion those types of topics Moderated

1:42

by the Dr Barbara Ross

1:44

Lee . She's an icon in osteopathic

1:46

medicine for so many different reasons , but

1:48

it was really dope to be on that panel

1:50

. We didn't get a chance to record it , so

1:53

we wanted to kind of talk a little bit about

1:55

that on this episode . But

1:58

before we jump into that , I

2:00

think the most important thing is , you

2:02

know , in the last episode we talked about what it was

2:04

like to travel , what it's like

2:06

to , you know , kind of be a

2:09

part of these events . And I think one of the persons

2:11

who got us onto this panel , dr Jason Walker

2:13

, phd . Dr Jason Walker , he's

2:15

a PhD at . He's at PCOM , he's

2:17

at PCOM , south Georgia , and

2:26

one of the funny thing he said to me , he's like Dr Darko , he's talking to me . Dr Darko , I'm surprised you were able to make this event because you're working

2:28

all the time .

2:28

He's a hardest working man in America .

2:30

You're working all the time and , as a result

2:32

, you can't . It's very rare that

2:34

I'm able to go to these events . You normally

2:36

go to your events . This is your bag , this is what you're good at , but

3:00

it started thinking to me . I was like , I started thinking I was like man , like it's true , and , to

3:02

be really honest , one of the ways that I've been able to start plugging myself back

3:04

in is by really controlling my schedule , knowing exactly when I'm going working locums

3:06

, I think . I think that works for me . I think if I was employed , I would

3:08

not be able to go to as many conferences

3:10

as we have slated for this year .

3:12

Yeah , let me tell you , as your business

3:14

manager , I have definitely put

3:17

a number of conferences on your schedule

3:19

.

3:19

Yeah . So the way how it works

3:21

is is , as a locums , I'm an independent contractor

3:24

with a hospital , just like how you would hire a plumber

3:26

and you work with a plumber . Plumber tells

3:28

you when he can work or when she can work , and

3:30

then that's it .

3:31

Yeah Right , there's no salary , there's no

3:33

benefits , it's just a straight fee and

3:46

then with that fee you're supposed to be able to do and purchase what you need to do , which may be

3:48

you know plumbing , plumbing , or which may be , you know , like a 401k

3:50

, or which may be in health insurance and so forth . So you know , yeah , yeah

3:52

, I mean . So , as I said , you know you definitely

3:55

, this year um are going to have a

3:57

number of conferences that

3:59

we're going to be plugging you into . Um

4:01

. Part of the reason that actually you're going

4:03

to have a much busier schedule

4:05

in general this year is because

4:08

we are doing something

4:10

a little bit different . So

4:12

, did you know ? Did you know that we're doing something

4:14

different ? No , you

4:16

know , you're just playing around .

4:18

No , I really don't know what you're even getting at .

4:20

Well , we're going to be doing something a little bit different . We have

4:22

a couple of campaigns upcoming

4:24

this year for Docs

4:27

Outside the Box , and it's

4:30

going to require that we do a little

4:32

bit more travel , hopefully taking this podcast

4:34

on the road , like we're taking right now , and

4:39

one of the places

4:41

that we're going to be partnered up

4:43

with is actually Locum Story .

4:46

Yeah , that's where I'm going with it . So now you know . Now

4:48

I know where you're going . Okay , so that's why I remain

4:50

the host . Okay , Because you don't know how to lead

4:52

people in at all . Really so guys , we're doing things

4:54

a little bit differently here . Right , we

4:56

are partnering up with Locum Story , okay

4:59

, and they are literally the

5:01

online resource for everything you wanted

5:03

to know about locums . I'm telling you right now so

5:06

when I first started doing locums in 2012

5:08

, my resource was you yeah

5:10

, because you were doing locums at the time , and

5:12

that's why I'm the business manager . Right . So if

5:14

you go to locumstorycom right now

5:16

, literally it is the

5:18

best way I could take I could say is is it's really

5:21

unbiased information ? Yeah , like it's unbiased

5:23

information . Trust me , as someone who's done locums for 10 years . The

5:25

information is very unbiased . You have the

5:27

opportunity to really compare different

5:29

locums agencies , which is huge . What

5:32

do they offer ? What are

5:34

the type of rates , based off of the type of specialties

5:36

that you're looking at .

5:37

That's really cold

5:39

.

5:39

There's one thing to say hey , I want to do locums , but

5:41

if you don't know what the rates are , and then if you don't know what

5:43

the rates are between companies , yo

5:46

, what are we talking about here ?

5:52

So , yeah , no , that's really good . That locum story does that , because one of the main questions that

5:55

we get whenever people ask us about locums is well , how

5:57

much should I be charging ? What should my rates

5:59

be ? So the fact that they even have

6:01

that information is ridiculous

6:03

. So even if you remember how you found out you should be charging

6:05

? Oh my God .

6:07

You want to talk about that real quick , yeah .

6:08

So I found out that I I

6:10

found out how I was being paid and how

6:12

much I was being paid and how much the

6:15

locums agency I was working

6:17

with at the time was being paid , because someone

6:20

didn't realize that they were

6:22

not supposed to CC me on

6:24

an email . One of the administrators at a hospital

6:26

CC'd me on an email

6:29

to the locums company and he

6:31

outlined all of the rates and I

6:33

was like wait , what I

6:36

was like I'm not getting even half

6:38

of this money .

6:39

So basically the rate that the locums company

6:41

quoted to you , that's what you were getting paid . When

6:43

you saw the email , the email

6:45

showed exactly the total amount that

6:48

the locums company was charging the hospital and

6:50

you found out that you were like pennies

6:52

on a dollar compared to what they were paying you yeah

6:54

.

6:54

Yeah , so I mean it's , you know , it's the

6:57

platform locum story is a really good way

6:59

to just kind of compare the rates you

7:02

know that you're getting . But the other thing is a lot

7:04

of the questions that we get also is okay

7:06

, well , will I be able to control my schedule

7:09

? Obviously , we just answered that . Obviously

7:11

the answer is yes , but can I do locums

7:13

if I have kids ?

7:14

Unless you give up that power like I did . So

7:16

I told you when I first started working locums , I

7:19

gave my the person who handles me from a locum standpoint . So when the person

7:21

who handles me from a locum standpoint so when you guys

7:23

work with a company , there's going to be someone who you work with specifically

7:25

I gave my schedule

7:28

to him to arrange

7:30

my gigs , basically

7:32

, and there was one time where actually

7:35

there was a couple of times where I would finish working , I'd finish doing a 24-hour

7:38

shift and then I would drive

7:40

two hours away to another place and start working

7:42

that same day . Oh my God , and

7:44

it didn't click to me . That dude like

7:47

this guy's running you ragged and you didn't

7:49

have to do that . You control your schedule , right , but

7:51

I just I didn't know how to like , I

7:53

didn't know how to take charge of that . I didn't know I could take charge back

7:55

then so that's just a little bit of example of yeah

7:57

, you can control your schedule .

8:00

Right , but you have to be very intentional about

8:02

it . And then the other question that people

8:04

often ask us , you know , is can you do

8:06

locums when you have kids ? And

8:08

then the other question that I think

8:10

people don't even think about can you do locums internationally

8:13

?

8:14

Yes .

8:14

Right , and we talked about that a little bit in

8:17

a previous episode when you went to Ghana

8:19

and things like that , you weren't doing locums in Ghana , obviously

8:22

, but you said that . You said that a number

8:24

of doctors work locums while they're

8:26

in Ghana .

8:26

Yeah , yeah , yeah , I mean so . We know people

8:29

who there's gigs in the Marshall Islands , there's

8:31

gigs in Guam , there's gigs in

8:33

just New Zealand . So

8:36

listen , folks

8:38

, you don't have to

8:40

do things one way . There's multiple ways you can

8:42

skin a cat and

8:48

I think that locumstorycomcom they do a really good job of making sure that you understand

8:51

the entire scope of what to expect as a locums doc . Yeah , I think they do it

8:53

the best out of anybody yeah like I said , I

8:55

wish this resource was there when I was there , or

8:57

at least you knew about it , because it probably did exist

8:59

already . No , I spoke to them , it did

9:01

not exist back then ?

9:02

Oh wow .

9:02

I do my research . I do my research

9:05

. It was not there back in 2011

9:07

, 2012 .

9:08

So , listen , I mean , yeah , it's good , and

9:10

we're also going to be partnering with them on a special

9:13

campaign to essentially

9:15

show our audience exactly what

9:18

it takes . How do you go through getting a locums

9:20

gig . So stay tuned for that

9:22

.

9:26

But the link , the link to locumsstorycom

9:28

is going to be in the show notes , so and listen , guys , come on . Y'all can't figure that

9:30

out . It's locumsstorycom . Come on now .

9:32

It is , but there's a special link for us , so

9:35

that they know that they came from us .

9:37

Locumsstorycom . Locumsstorycom

9:39

. Come on , guys , let's stay hard .

9:41

No , but they got to use the special link to

9:43

let them know that it came from Docs Outside the Box

9:45

. That's true , yeah , so if you love Docs Outside the

9:47

Box and you want LocumStory to know

9:49

that you

9:51

went to their website because of Docs

9:53

Outside the Box and we don't get anything

9:56

from you clicking the link , so you can

9:58

just go ahead and click the link . We

10:05

just get the satisfaction of knowing that we are sending people over to locumsorycom , then , yeah , click

10:07

the link in the show notes .

10:09

Links are always in the show notes and also , if you're watching on

10:11

YouTube , it's in the show description .

10:13

Make sure you check that out .

10:14

So let's jump into how Locums allows

10:17

us to be here . So we've kind of settled that

10:19

Locums thing already . So now that we are

10:21

here in Denver at the AACOM

10:23

Educating Leaders Conference , we're

10:25

making this work . So why were

10:27

we invited here ?

10:29

Well , actually we were invited because Dr Jason

10:31

Walker thought about

10:33

us , right ? So

10:36

he , you know he's a

10:38

part of the . I think it's called a committee

10:40

oh gosh , it's called the Committee

10:43

on Diversity and Equity that

10:45

the AAMC has , and

10:49

we've known Dr Jason Walker for some time

10:51

because he used to work at our alma

10:53

mater yeah , KCU .

10:55

Shout out to KCU .

10:56

Yep , you're not sponsoring this show . Think

10:59

about that , oh

11:01

my goodness . But

11:04

yeah , so we've been in contact with Dr

11:06

Walker for a while .

11:08

You need to move over a little bit into the camera more , yeah , sure

11:10

.

11:19

Act like you potted before Talking to the audience

11:21

, about just the importance

11:24

of diversity , equity , inclusion , belonging

11:26

justice

11:29

something that the AACOM

11:31

is really dedicated to and

11:33

trying to make

11:36

sure that they address in

11:38

terms of being able to create

11:41

the next generation of DOs .

11:42

I think for me what I got from Dr

11:45

Jason Walker is the reason he wanted us

11:47

on there is because we kind of walk it and talk it . Yeah

11:49

, right , and I think sometimes , when you can get

11:51

too academic , that's your bag . When

11:53

you can get too academic with certain

11:56

talks , you have all of these

11:58

great ideas or all of these great

12:00

, you figure out the problem , but

12:02

you don't necessarily have solutions that

12:04

actually work . And I think him having

12:07

two practicing physicians on their married

12:09

couple African American or , excuse me

12:11

, you know , haitian American

12:13

, ghanaian American Some people may just

12:16

look at us as African American . We have all of these different

12:18

experiences . You know , we've seen

12:20

diversity

12:22

. We've seen inclusion work

12:24

in so many different facets , from us

12:26

in high school to us in

12:28

college , med school and so forth and

12:30

I think that's something that I want to get onto

12:32

this show where we talk about the pipeline . But

12:35

before we jump into that discussion

12:37

, let's just take a quick break for a sponsor . This

12:41

episode is brought to you by locumstorycom

12:43

. Backdrop 2012

12:46

, finishing my fellowship in Miami and

12:49

no decision bigger than where and how

12:51

I was going to start working on my own . And

12:54

there it was the fork in the road being

12:56

employed versus something

12:58

I had never heard of before locum

13:00

tenants . So I decided to go the

13:02

locums route and I had a ton of questions . Then

13:04

I stumbled a bit , but

13:06

eventually I was able to stand on my own

13:08

and I have been working locums over

13:11

the past 10 years . Now , what

13:13

about you ? If you're considering locums

13:15

, you probably have hella questions , just like I did

13:17

, like who covers my malpractice

13:19

, do I really have control over

13:21

how often I work and what are

13:23

the tax implications ? Now , lucky

13:25

for you , locumstorycom has

13:28

the answers you need . It's packed with unbiased

13:30

information and advice from docs , just

13:33

like you , and there's nothing to sell here

13:35

. It's just a simple resource for

13:37

information , like finding out what's the

13:39

average pay rate for your specialty . There's

13:44

even a quiz to see if locums is

13:46

right for you . So listen , take

13:52

my advice . Locumstorycom is the perfect place to start

13:54

if you want to learn more about locums . That's locumstorycom

13:59

and we're back . So listen y'all . I'm going

14:01

to start this off by saying yo , dr Renee

14:03

, I don't know what it is that she's drinking

14:06

. She's like a superwoman . She killed

14:08

this panel . So there was a panel of four folks

14:11

, right ? Dr Barbara Ross Lee was leading this panel

14:13

and this was a

14:15

panel on , you know , just talking about different

14:17

solutions that we can come up with , that diversity

14:20

issue within the AACOM , all

14:22

of these different colleges of osteopathic medicine

14:24

, and it was

14:26

two medical students who are dope , they're great

14:28

. And then me and renee were there

14:30

and I'm just sitting there and I'm like man , like we're

14:32

in this big dais .

14:34

The chairs are nice and comfortable oh yeah , yeah

14:36

, it's nice and comfortable . The lights are like yeah

14:38

, it wasn't . Yeah , it was a different type of

14:40

vibe for real it was really like it

14:42

was the .

14:43

It was in this grand ballroom , like everybody

14:46

was plugged in and there I thought this was going to be like a

14:48

small panel in a small room . I didn't know it

14:50

was going to be the event for that

14:52

for yesterday , which was which was great

14:54

. But I gotta say yo

14:56

, like Renee , like whatever you

14:59

was off the chain yeah , that's your bag

15:01

. Like you handled that situation , like your ability

15:03

to storyt , your ability to captivate

15:05

the audience , don't get humble on

15:07

this , for real .

15:08

Don't mess it up . Don't mess it up , hold on , hold on

15:10

, let it breathe .

15:11

It's a gift , you know , but hold on , let it breathe

15:13

. Just let it breathe for a second . Let

15:15

me give you your flowers , the ability for you to speak

15:17

and captivate a crowd and tell

15:19

your story , talking about pipeline

15:22

and talking about some of the issues that you developed

15:24

or had happened to you while you were in

15:27

college , and so forth . Like that's

15:29

phenomenal , I'm sitting up there I'm giving my answers . They asked

15:31

me a question about finances and I'll get into that later

15:33

, but my answer was just like elementary

15:35

, like you went , you went cold on them on

15:37

it . So , I just said how about this ? Let's , let's

15:39

, let's do this question real quick that Dr Barbara

15:41

Ross Lee asked you , and

15:43

then I want you to answer it , and then I'll ask you some questions

15:46

from here . Okay , okay , does that work ? That works , you're not

15:48

nervous , are you ? Oh , my God , I'm so nervous . All

15:50

right , so she asked you

15:52

, as you work with individuals who want to be physicians

15:54

, what are some things that you think

15:57

that the leaders of our College of Osteopathic

15:59

Medicine should know about the hopes , expectations

16:01

and fears of our future students

16:03

? Dr Renee , what say

16:05

you ? What did you say ? Say exactly what you said yesterday

16:07

.

16:07

Don't change it up . I can say exactly

16:10

what I said yesterday , but I did say that

16:12

they need to know a lot . But

16:16

one of the first things that I went into was the fact

16:18

that- .

16:20

Man , just answer the way how you answered yesterday . Nobody

16:23

asked you to summarize , just get into it , come on .

16:25

Okay . So we need

16:28

to understand right Leaders need to understand

16:30

that pre-med

16:32

students oftentimes they're lost , they

16:34

don't actually know what it takes to

16:36

get into medical school right , and

16:39

without that knowledge then

16:41

they're going to be at a disadvantage , and

16:44

that's something that I don't know that people

16:46

actually appreciate . There's kind of a notion

16:49

that people have

16:51

that if you're in this process , you

16:53

know exactly what it is that you're supposed to be doing

16:55

and you don't

16:57

.

16:57

That was a number one point that I thought was dope

17:01

. People just assume that you

17:03

are applying to school . You know all the ins and

17:05

outs and there are things that are just

17:08

not obvious , particularly if you don't

17:10

grow up in that type of environment

17:13

If your parents aren't physicians , or if your parents

17:15

maybe didn't go to college

17:17

you may not know

17:19

certain things .

17:20

Keep going , keep going , sis . You're cooking , you're cooking

17:22

.

17:23

She's cooking , guys , she's cooking .

17:25

Come on , go at it , so you

17:27

know . So I brought that to basically

17:30

talk about the next point , which

17:32

that's where I got into my story and

17:34

I talked about how you know , I

17:37

was valedictorian of my preschool class

17:39

, right , I had always been a very good student

17:41

. I was the only student in my

17:44

elementary school to get

17:46

a scholarship to

17:48

a private high school . Once I did that

17:50

, I graduated salutatorian .

17:52

I didn't know there was private high schools in Brooklyn . But go ahead , Get

17:54

out of here .

17:55

You went to a private high school .

17:56

In Newark Exactly . I didn't

17:59

know there were private anything in Newark .

18:04

But I talked about that . And then I talked about

18:06

the fact that I graduated

18:08

salutatorian from that high school and

18:10

then went into college thinking you know

18:13

it's going to go great . Well , by the end

18:15

of my first year I had a 1.9

18:17

GPA . You know me , the

18:19

preschool , you know valedictorian who

18:21

would have thought Like

18:24

you know , and

18:26

I know a lot of people who have had that experience

18:28

.

18:29

Who actually say that , yeah , I got a 1.9 , but I started off as

18:31

the preschool valedictorian . Damn

18:34

, how did I go wrong

18:36

.

18:36

Maybe not the preschool , valedictorian how ?

18:38

did I go wrong from ?

18:39

preschool . I still have

18:41

my sash somewhere that says valedictorian

18:44

, somewhere Like

18:46

12 years maybe . All right , go ahead . But

18:48

you know , what I really

18:51

wanted to bring out from that story

18:53

was the fact that when I went

18:55

to my pre-med advisor the person who was supposed

18:57

to help me what she basically told

18:59

me was , you know , that

19:01

I should essentially do something else but hold on

19:03

before you go there , you

19:05

so what you leaving .

19:07

I see this is what I'm here for . Okay , so you want me to tell

19:09

the whole story ? Well , tell the story and wait

19:11

. The way in which you told , like you , you went from

19:13

you start hold on . I ain't say you

19:15

can go . Yeah , hold on a second . That's part of the reason why

19:17

I'm here is because you're not moderating

19:19

as well . So what was the feeling that you had when

19:22

you had the 1-9 ? Talk about that .

19:23

Well , the feeling that I had when I had the 1-9

19:25

was I actually was confused , right . I

19:27

didn't really know what was going on . I felt

19:29

overwhelmed . I

19:32

just felt like okay , something's not right

19:34

and

19:42

I really couldn't understand . You know the feelings that I was having , like what ?

19:44

and the result that I was getting like that to me was just . So what do you think it was ? Was it

19:46

test taking ? Do you think you weren't ready ? Do you think you were really interested

19:48

in that in bio at the time ?

19:50

No , hindsight , hindsight

19:52

, I think . What it was was I really just

19:54

had poor study habits , at

19:56

least for college .

19:57

See , this is what she said yesterday , guys

19:59

, and she's leaving all this , so that's why I got to you

20:02

, got to you know but keep going .

20:04

So I think I had poor study habits , but

20:06

that's hindsight . So this is one nine at the end of

20:08

your first year , at the end of my first year , and

20:10

so , talking to my pre-med advisor , went

20:13

into her office and said to her you

20:15

know , I feel overwhelmed , I

20:22

really don't know what to do . And she said well , you know , what do you want to do eventually

20:24

? And I said well , I want to go to med school , I want to be a doctor . And she said

20:26

looks at me . And she goes hmm

20:28

, maybe you should go to dental school instead

20:30

. And then she goes no

20:34

, hold up pause .

20:35

So at this point there's a bunch of people

20:37

in the audience who are like they're

20:39

kind of smirk and they're like , oh snap , yeah

20:41

, right , yeah , but keep going .

20:43

Then she says , well

20:45

, maybe you should go to dental school instead

20:47

. And she goes , but that's hard to get

20:49

into also .

20:51

And then there's that ooh in

20:54

the room .

20:55

Yeah , and

20:59

then she goes maybe you should go to graduate school and do something else . That's literally

21:01

the advice that she and that's verbatim . Like I want you to

21:03

like . I need people to understand that that's

21:05

verbatim and the fact that I

21:07

remember that verbatim it

21:11

literally is an indication

21:14

that it left such a

21:16

negative impression on me . You

21:19

know that I remember specifically those

21:21

words . I was 18

21:23

years old . So at the point you were lost , you were overwhelmed

21:25

and you were going to her to try to find

21:28

maybe some type of lifeline or something like that , something

21:30

to you know someone to help me , and

21:33

she essentially didn't even , she

21:35

didn't even give me a chance , she didn't ask

21:37

me well , what you know ? What's your problem ? What

21:39

are you doing ? You know ?

21:40

tell me what your day is like , because a lot could change

21:43

after your first year . Oh , absolutely .

21:44

And a lot did change .

21:45

This is not your third year , your fourth year , Well .

21:47

I mean , I think it's important for us to realize

21:49

that at 18 years old we should not

21:51

expect for people to have it all together

21:53

right Like . That's an unrealistic expectation

21:56

there are . There are responsibilities

21:59

that we would never give an 18-year-old

22:01

.

22:01

All right , pause . So let's go back into

22:03

that way how you're answering the question . So

22:06

once you said that part of the question , or you

22:09

said that part of the description of you being in

22:11

an office , she's saying look , it

22:13

looks like med school , dental school . That's too tough for

22:15

you . Maybe you need to do grad school and

22:17

so forth . Why don't you go to

22:20

keep going with the story ?

22:21

So you got kicked out of school . What happened ? No

22:23

, I didn't get kicked out of school , so

22:25

, but what I did say was you know that

22:28

, fortunately , you know , I had a way

22:30

to to keep going right , like

22:32

my story is very long and convoluted

22:34

, um , so I didn't go into the entire

22:36

thing but eventually I kept going . But

22:38

my question , you know , to the audience was

22:40

well , what about those people who didn't keep

22:43

going ? What about those pre-meds who fall off

22:45

and you never see them again

22:47

? You actually never see them again , right

22:49

? If I were that person , you would literally

22:52

never see me again . And we've got

22:54

to understand that as a profession , like

22:56

we have to take a stake in

22:58

recruiting people

23:00

into our profession , like

23:03

that's our responsibility . Now

23:05

there are some good , you know

23:07

pre-med advisors , but

23:09

I mean , let's face it , they

23:11

don't necessarily have that big of a stake

23:14

in the game for us to really

23:16

outsource , you know , our

23:18

recruitment and especially when it

23:20

comes to diversity initiatives , something that is so

23:22

very important , we don't , we

23:25

really shouldn't , outsource that

23:27

to a whole other profession

23:29

, which is the pre-med advisement

23:32

profession . So I really think it's our

23:34

you know , it's our responsibility to do that

23:36

. Then I told them about the medic

23:38

program and I shouted out you

23:40

know the schools that are in the medic program .

23:42

I think one of the things that you talked about was

23:45

pipeline programs .

23:46

Yeah .

23:46

So why don't you talk briefly about what you

23:49

mentioned ?

23:49

there . Yeah , I forgot about that actually .

23:51

Yeah , I know you did . That's why I'm here , because

23:54

you know what I said . Yes , I was watching , I

23:56

was in awe .

24:02

Yo , I'm telling you she was cold guys . Yeah , so I talked about pipeline programs

24:04

and mentioned that the students who are

24:07

told that they are not going to make it

24:09

and they fall off , they don't even get

24:11

an opportunity to get into a pipeline

24:13

program . Oftentimes , the people

24:15

who actually even make it to a pipeline program

24:17

are people those are those B and C students .

24:19

They make it to a pipeline program . Those are those B and C students

24:21

, maybe lower B range , c students who just

24:24

need a little bit of a hey , what's

24:26

going on ? Let me help you out .

24:27

Exactly , and they probably were going to figure

24:29

it out anyway , right ? They probably , even

24:31

if they weren't necessarily in a pipeline

24:34

program , they might have figured it out . That

24:36

was actually my case , right , I was not

24:38

in a pipeline program .

24:39

So you said that specifically in the pipeline programs

24:41

. What you're noticing is those are the students that would

24:44

have what they would have made it anyway

24:46

. Okay .

24:48

They would have made it anyway , and so we've lost a number

24:50

of students who actually did need

24:52

that pipeline .

24:53

So when you say that , are you saying that the people

24:56

who are in there shouldn't be in those pipeline programs ? No

24:58

, definitely not .

24:59

No , I

25:05

think pipeline programs are extremely important and I don't want to take away , you know , from people

25:07

who have gone through pipeline programs because guess what , while they might

25:09

have made it anyway , this probably

25:11

shortened , you know , the length

25:13

of time for them to get there , probably

25:15

shortened , or it probably lessened the

25:17

pain for them to get through there , right

25:20

? Unlike me , I didn't go through

25:22

a pipeline program , so that

25:24

probably lengthened the

25:26

time for me to be able to figure out what

25:28

I was going to do . Had I been in a pipeline

25:30

program , yeah , I would have made it anyway

25:33

, but I maybe would

25:35

have made it in a shorter period of time

25:37

, right ? So I don't want to discount pipeline programs and say , oh well , they're

25:39

not good for know . I don't want to discount pipeline programs and say , oh

25:41

well , you know , they're not good for anything . You're

25:43

just preaching to the choir .

25:45

What do you think the leaders could do right now ?

25:46

then , so I think one of the things

25:48

that the leaders can do is they need

25:50

to they literally need to take the reins

25:53

of recruitment . Like

25:55

it can't be this . I

25:58

feel like recruitment is

26:00

very passive

26:02

, for lack of a better word . Right , we wait for

26:04

the students to come to us . Right

26:07

, even if we go to

26:10

organizational

26:13

you know conferences . Right , we go

26:15

to the organizational conferences in hopes

26:17

that the students will come to us . Right

26:19

, we might go to a school

26:22

fair here and there , but let's face it

26:24

, there are over 3,000 colleges

26:27

around the country , so we can't

26:29

necessarily so you were proposing

26:31

an active role , a very active

26:33

role . Well , one of the roles that I propose is

26:35

a solution of my own , which is the

26:37

medic program . Right , Look

26:40

at this lady talking about the stuff that's shameless

26:42

. Yeah , I got a problem .

26:43

I got a solution .

26:44

That's right . So you talk about your medic app .

26:46

So the reason why you talk about your medic app

26:48

you shouted out what's the schools that you shouted out .

26:50

So I shouted out William Carey University

26:52

, des Moines University , kansas

26:54

City University and Idaho College

26:56

of Osteopathic Medicine .

26:57

Why'd you shout them out ?

26:58

I shouted them out because these are

27:01

schools that have invested

27:03

in my program in particular , but

27:05

because they are schools that literally

27:07

are taking the reins and saying we are

27:09

going to kind of not

27:12

eliminate but we are going to not

27:15

necessitate the middleman of

27:18

the pre-med advisor , right

27:20

? So I always encourage students

27:22

to go to their pre-med advisors good , bad or

27:24

otherwise . I say go to your pre-med advisor

27:27

because there is something that you're going to need from them

27:29

and you need to make sure that you cultivate that

27:31

relationship . But at the same time

27:33

I recognize that there

27:35

is value in going straight

27:38

to the source , going straight to the horse's

27:40

mouth , and the horse's mouth is

27:42

the medical school .

27:43

So your app allows direct

27:45

communication between the medical school and

27:48

college students pre-medical

27:50

students non-traditional students .

27:52

Non-traditional students as well .

27:53

And on your app you allow certain

27:55

events like a pre-med

27:57

I talked about the Mock and Rock event

27:59

. Right , so this is an opportunity for pre-meds who are using the Mock and

28:01

Rock event . Right ? So this is an opportunity for pre-meds who are

28:03

using your app , non-traditional students who are using

28:06

your app to go on the app and

28:08

get interviewed by physicians and

28:10

other people who are in the admissions committee of

28:12

medical schools .

28:13

Exactly , admissions committee folks , faculty

28:15

medical students . So

28:18

yeah , this is an opportunity for them to

28:20

literally interface in ways that

28:22

they otherwise would not be able to interface

28:24

, you know , with

28:27

pre-med students , right . So you

28:30

know , the schools and pre-meds need

28:32

to be like , they need to have that

28:34

relationship , and right now they

28:36

don't , and the only time

28:38

that they actually do is if

28:41

the pre-med person , right

28:43

, if the pre-med individual is actually

28:45

reaching out to the school . So there

28:47

really isn't a very . So

28:49

you're like , you're like the uber yeah , you're

28:51

like the left . I'm like the uber of

28:53

medical schools and stuff . You're connecting people

28:55

, getting rid of the middleman , that's right .

28:56

Taxis and the taxis being the uh pre-med

28:58

, yeah , taking in places .

28:59

I'm just taxis being the pre-med advisors , yeah , taking them places . I'm just , I'm not Meeting

29:01

people .

29:01

Pre-med advisors are extremely important , absolutely .

29:03

But this is just a non-traditional way of looking

29:05

at communicating between pre-meds

29:08

, as well as college or medical

29:10

schools . Right , and medical schools . I

29:13

mean , it's just another

29:15

way to you know , or another

29:18

added thing that we can do to make things

29:20

better , because

29:26

we've been doing it this way for so long , but we still have issues with diversity

29:28

, and so I feel like we've been implementing the same

29:30

solutions over and over , thinking OK

29:32

, well , one day it will work , and it's like

29:34

, but you know it's

29:37

not working .

29:38

Right , I got you All right , so let's shift a little

29:40

bit is not working Right . I got you All right , so let's shift a little

29:42

bit . So when they asked me , they

29:47

asked me in my work and teaching about finances what impact have I found on the high tuition of

29:49

many medical schools , including osteopathic medical schools ? So my answer , which

29:51

was not as good as hers , I basically just kind of

29:53

listed some of the numbers . I said the average

29:55

medical school debt is like $215,000

29:57

. If you combine average medical debt

29:59

with average college debt together , that's

30:01

roughly around $240,000 , $250,000

30:05

. And it takes roughly about 13 years

30:07

on average for people to pay back

30:09

their student loans . And I also

30:11

mentioned that . I don't know if anybody knows we're going to

30:13

talk about this on a future episode but Sally Mae , as well as Navient

30:16

, they are the defendants on a

30:18

whole bunch of what do

30:20

you call those class action lawsuits . Right

30:22

, where they found out after doing research

30:24

is that when you call

30:26

Sally Mae or Navient

30:28

and you are asking for help , you're saying that you

30:31

can't make a certain payment . You're struggling

30:33

with making a certain payment . There's a whole

30:35

bunch of different options that they can offer you

30:37

, one of them being some type

30:40

of income-based repayment plan which

30:42

is based off of how much money you're bringing in . Sometimes

30:44

you may be allowed , based

30:46

off of how much you're making , to not even make any type

30:48

of payment , and that will actually count towards

30:51

the significant amount of payments that you need to make consecutively

30:53

to get your loan repaid Without interest

30:55

. But what they found out after

30:57

investigating is that actually the

31:01

customer service workers were

31:03

shifting people to forbearance .

31:05

Right , which is basically interest first

31:07

.

31:08

Right , and it capitizes and all of these different

31:10

things . That's what happened to me . So

31:12

I can remember this specifically me calling or

31:14

excuse me , they calling me and I'm ready to go into

31:16

a case or I'm doing something . I'm just trying

31:18

to get off the phone and I'm saying what options

31:20

do I have ? Because I cannot make any more payments . I'm

31:23

struggling right now as a resident . I can't make any

31:25

payments and they're saying , yeah , just forbear , and

31:28

that gets them off my back for like three

31:30

months , six months , and then next year , you know , we're

31:33

back at it again and that's how someone's student

31:35

loan payment goes from $240,000

31:37

to $330,000

31:39

. And what's that ? In five years

31:41

? Right , because we graduated in

31:43

2006, . That was $240,000

31:46

. By the time we finished all of our training in 2011

31:49

, 2012 , we're at $330,000 each

31:51

. That's a problem . So

31:53

I said that that has an impact on how medical

31:56

students choose the specialties that they want to go into , even

31:59

where they're

32:02

going to practice . It affects the

32:04

communities they're going to practice in , the hospitals they're going to sign

32:06

on with , and I think , after what we learned this year

32:08

with COVID and a

32:10

whole bunch of other different things , the interest of the hospital

32:12

is not necessarily the interest of you . It's definitely not , probably

32:15

in the same interest of your patients . They want your patients to

32:17

do well , but that may not correlate with

32:19

standard of care , with how you are trained , right

32:21

? So how likely

32:23

are you to stand up to a hospital , how likely

32:25

are you going to be able to advocate

32:28

for your patients when you know that there's going

32:30

to be some type of financial implication

32:32

for you , right , ie not being able to make

32:34

a student loan payment or you

32:36

know , just a significant change in how you

32:38

get paid Right , which is going to affect how you pay your

32:40

student loans Right . So I think that

32:43

you know there is

32:45

no talk whatsoever about money

32:47

in medical school , yet when

32:49

we get out into the real world .

32:51

We are expecting .

32:53

Money like changes . Money affects

32:55

all of the decisions that we make and it affects

32:57

everything from A to Z . So

32:59

I think that we need to do a better job . We need

33:01

to incorporate finance , some type of talk about

33:03

money , some type of talk about you know , what are these loans

33:05

going to do with you ? Maybe these are your options

33:08

, rather than save that for the exit interview

33:10

. Your fourth year , like this , needs to be incorporated

33:12

in Up front . Up front , you know , in your first

33:14

year , your second year , and there is time , guys . There is time

33:16

to have these type of courses and classes or

33:18

modules to do this . But , as you can

33:20

see , my answer is not as good as hers .

33:22

No , I mean , I think you know

33:24

, as far as it

33:27

relates Looking at trying to figure out a way . No , as

33:29

far as no . I thought your answer was actually

33:31

really good . I think what happened ?

33:32

Are you lying ?

33:33

No , I'm not . I think your answer was actually really

33:35

good .

33:35

I think that that's

33:38

not a topic that most people are really

33:40

used to hearing on the academic

33:42

side , Right because

33:44

I think the big thing that I notice is

33:46

and that's the easiest solution , right , because

33:48

from my perspective , I'm

33:50

not in

33:53

the discussions on the board , I'm not in discussions

33:55

on admissions , where it

33:57

just seems like medical schools

33:59

or colleges in general increase

34:01

their tuition and they know that automatically

34:04

, all of these student loan services are just going

34:06

to be like , yeah , sure , no problem , which is exactly

34:08

what happens and it's like well , but the body hasn't changed

34:10

. The body hasn't gotten more complex

34:12

, like our tuition of $30,000

34:14

a year , why is it now $50,000 a year ? The body hasn't

34:16

transformed into something else , so where is all this's

34:19

all this money going to ?

34:20

Yeah .

34:20

Right , why am I paying more ? Yeah , so I

34:22

think that's probably one of the hardest things I

34:24

think to change is the inflation that's going on

34:26

with with college colleges

34:29

, as well as medical student tuition

34:31

rates .

34:32

But at least we got to prepare them

34:34

and let them know like this is the this is going to happen

34:37

and this is how you are supposed to deal

34:39

with it . You know , one of the things that

34:41

you know . As you were talking

34:43

about that , I

34:45

was thinking you know , how

34:48

do we expect people

34:51

to give really good care to

34:54

patients when really

34:56

what they're thinking about is

34:58

how they're going to make their next payment , how

35:01

they're going . You know , if they're choosing jobs

35:03

just based on well , I got to

35:05

pay the bills , or they're leaving jobs

35:07

because the job doesn't pay enough , right

35:09

, like . How many times have you maybe

35:12

heard a physician say , like

35:14

well , you know they're not really paying

35:16

much over here , so I have to take another

35:18

job ? And it's like wow , what an impact

35:20

that that might have on this community . What impact

35:22

might that have on the student body

35:25

, because sometimes you're

35:27

talking about academics as well , who are leaving

35:29

their jobs .

35:30

I also think that the issue

35:32

that we fail to

35:34

bring up is what about

35:36

the what could be , the what ifs that

35:39

this person could do , like what if they

35:41

wanted to take a year off and go do some work

35:43

in a different country , some medical , humanitarian work

35:45

? Or what if they wanted to take

35:47

some time off and work on some type

35:49

of I don't know some type of community

35:51

service ?

35:52

Or some innovation .

35:54

What if they wanted to take a chance to do some type of innovation ? Or what

35:56

if they wanted to go back to a medical school and

35:58

just be a teacher there , and maybe

36:00

the pay is not as good as them

36:02

working clinically , but this is what they want to

36:04

do . But because of that mental

36:06

math , that mathematics , it doesn't

36:09

work out . And that's what I think is the biggest

36:11

issue is is that we're talking about leadership

36:13

. We're talking about , oh yeah , as a physician , you could

36:15

do anything you want , but we're not properly preparing

36:17

them .

36:17

Yeah , we're not looking at the whole scope , right ? So

36:20

now , okay , let's put

36:22

on our osteopathic hats , right

36:25

, let's put on our osteopathic hats because

36:27

you know in

36:30

our profession , right , we

36:32

are taught , it's embedded . You

36:34

know in our curriculum we are taught , it's embedded . You know

36:37

in our curriculum , it's drilled into us that it is very

36:39

important to take the whole body

36:41

as a unit , right ?

36:45

And so if the whole body is a unit , she about to take the osteopathic profession

36:47

to church . All right , let's go ahead .

36:48

If the whole body is a unit , right

36:50

, we can't just apply that to

36:53

patients .

36:53

She's cooking y'all .

36:54

Okay , we can't just apply that to patients . She's cooking y'all . Okay , we can't just apply that

36:56

to patients . She's cooking this , you know . The whole , the , the

36:58

body as a unit , is literally about

37:01

life . That's how .

37:02

I see it .

37:02

Gotcha , I see it as about life

37:04

, right . So you know , we are taught

37:06

that when a patient comes in , that

37:08

even though they're coming in and maybe their arm

37:11

hurts as they're walking into

37:13

the room , you should be looking at them , you should be looking

37:15

at their gait , you should be looking at their demeanor

37:17

, you should be looking at pretty

37:19

much everything about

37:21

this patient . Well , what

37:23

about our doctors ? Right , are we looking

37:26

at everything about our doctors ? Are

37:28

we considering their mental health ? Are

37:32

we considering their financial situations ? Are we considering

37:34

the things that will impact our doctor's

37:37

ability to be able to be at

37:39

their very , very best ?

37:42

No . So the question is is that the job of the

37:44

medical school ?

37:50

Well , I would argue that it is . So

37:52

if your goal is to put

37:54

out physicians

37:56

who are going to be competent

37:59

, who are going to be willing and able to

38:01

practice , then I think you need to look

38:03

at the entire physician's situation

38:06

to say how best can I give

38:08

, like , what are the best tools and resources

38:10

that I can give them to be able to

38:12

take care of communities ? Because that's what

38:14

medical schools report that they are .

38:16

I think any type of industry needs to learn how to adapt

38:18

right . We see that in so many different successful

38:21

companies , organizations

38:23

or even professions . When things

38:26

occur , they adapt , they change and

38:28

so forth . And I think , with all of these

38:30

different doctors and all of these different medical

38:32

students and residents talking about side

38:34

hustle culture and going

38:37

on and doing stuff with social media , what that's

38:39

saying is that , listen , what we are getting

38:41

probably is not enough and

38:43

I need more . I need more preparation

38:45

on A Need people where they're at . I need this

38:48

, I need that . So basically all

38:50

of this stuff , I think is a symptom that

38:52

the way in which we're educating or

38:54

there needs to be more additional

38:56

things that we're doing to prepare residents

38:59

, doctors , medical students for

39:02

basically a different world , right Like we're still kind

39:04

of training them for like world like 30 , 40

39:06

, 50 years ago when things have completely

39:08

changed . Right , when the average medical school debt in 1999

39:12

was like 150,000 . No , actually I think

39:14

it was less than that . Right , but

39:16

the stakes weren't as high as

39:18

they are now Right . And you're

39:20

not dealing with . You know , back

39:23

then the likelihood of you going into private practice was much

39:25

higher than it is now , right , right . So

39:27

now you're going into a situation where you're basically almost

39:29

a high paid employee . So

39:32

the stakes are way higher now than they

39:34

were 10 years ago , 20 years ago

39:36

and 30 years ago . So that's my thought , I

39:38

think it is , I think it's it's . They

39:40

don't have to , but I think they should in order

39:42

to keep up with current times and for us to continue

39:45

to , you know , basically evolve

39:48

. Otherwise , if we don't evolve , then we don't have that

39:51

other issue where other you

39:53

know what's the way I want to say other

39:56

um , like

39:58

nurses and nurse practitioners and physician

40:00

assistants . They will take over because people

40:02

will be fleeing our occupation right and

40:04

they're like .

40:05

Well , they'll see the opportunity in our

40:07

, in the , in the cracks right of our

40:09

profession . Well , I will tell you this I

40:11

was , I was

40:13

definitely encouraged by the

40:15

fact that that question even came

40:17

up at an educational

40:20

, at an academic conference .

40:22

Right , because it's almost like you just pay the price

40:24

to be in the game and that's it .

40:26

Right .

40:28

Instead of just like , hey , let's actually

40:30

inquire like why is it so high ? And

40:33

try to figure out why it's so high and let's talk

40:35

about it Before . It's almost like I mean this is just what it is to be so high and let's talk about it before

40:37

.

40:37

It's almost like I mean this is just what it is to be a doctor , and that's it

40:39

exactly move on , let's go from there

40:41

yeah , so I was just encouraged that

40:43

, you know , especially on that panel which was unopposed

40:46

, and it brought everybody

40:48

to the table you know to to

40:50

hear and and kind

40:52

of you know , get their wheels turning about

40:54

this issue . I was

40:57

really encouraged that it happened at

40:59

this particular conference .

41:00

Shout out to Kenneth Durgans , who was

41:02

there from .

41:03

KCU .

41:04

What's his official title ?

41:05

So he is the , I

41:08

believe , the vice provost

41:10

of diversity at

41:12

KCU .

41:14

And also shout out to Dr Rance McClain

41:16

who was our professor ? When

41:19

we were in medical school from 2002 to 2006 .

41:21

He's now at ARCOM in Arkansas .

41:23

Yeah , so what's the full name ?

41:26

I believe it's Arkansas College

41:28

of Osteopathic Medicine .

41:30

I believe so . So he's there . I think

41:32

he's the dean there now . Yes , he's the dean

41:34

Big Tings , first of all if any of his

41:36

students are listening .

41:38

He really made it clear that he wanted

41:40

us to let you know that we thought

41:42

he was actually one of the coolest professors in

41:45

med school .

41:46

He really was .

41:47

He was a cool professor .

41:48

His pants game needed some help , but he was excellent

41:50

. He

41:54

was a really good professor . I remember

41:56

he actually hooded me and that

41:58

picture is sitting in my mama's living room so

42:01

I was telling him that he says that he hoods

42:03

so many people and he white coats so many people .

42:05

It's hard to keep track of all of these different things , but

42:07

I told him .

42:08

I was like look , we're

42:11

part of your legacy and that's the teach . One is

42:13

yeah , although you don't like have

42:15

these , you know unique , special

42:17

relationships that go for a long way you

42:19

know you still have an effect on folks

42:21

and they're going to affect other people and it all comes

42:23

back to you and you know .

42:25

Explain to the pre-meds what hooding is , because they

42:27

may not know what that means yeah , so pre-meds

42:29

, uh .

42:29

So when you start medical school

42:31

, there's this , um , there's this , uh , what do you call it ? There's

42:33

this ceremony . The first thing is there's this , what do you call it ?

42:35

There's this ceremony . Yeah , the first thing is the white coat ceremony

42:37

.

42:37

There's this ceremony called the white coat ceremony , where

42:39

you actually get a white coat

42:41

that's put on you . You have to say the Hippocratic Oath

42:44

. If you're an osteopath , you say the

42:46

Osteopathic Oath .

42:48

You say the Osteopathic Oath .

42:49

Like what Right ? And it basically kind

42:51

of is a ceremony that kind of starts the process of you

42:54

, you know , just being involved in a profession

42:56

of being a physician .

42:57

But there's , someone .

42:59

Someone . You invite , someone who was

43:02

monumental in you becoming a doctor . You

43:04

get a doctor and they come and they put the white coat on

43:06

you . That means something . And then , when you graduate

43:09

, four years later , you can invite

43:11

another physician to put your hood

43:13

on you . Right Like graduation

43:16

hood yeah . Your graduation hood on you and

43:18

for me . I had Dr Dale Sanders , as

43:21

well as Dr Rance McLean , who put the hood on

43:23

me .

43:23

Yeah , and you get to , especially

43:25

especially for the hooding . Um

43:28

, most students will actually choose that doctor

43:30

, um , and so you know , for the

43:32

white coat ceremony , you may not know someone , so

43:34

that person is usually designated for you

43:36

, um , but you know , for the hooding ceremony , you may not know someone , so that person is usually designated

43:38

for you , but for the hooding , because you've gone through

43:40

four years of medical school .

43:41

Oh , we've been through it . Oh yeah , man yeah .

43:43

You actually invite a doctor .

43:45

I was going to invite Dr Dre . I was like you

43:47

need to come and hood me

43:49

, Dr Dre , Come on .

43:50

No , you weren't the rapper Dr Dre .

43:52

I know , I

44:18

know , I know that's what you're talking about . No , you weren't , anyway , but yeah , so that's what hooding

44:20

is , and you know it just shows four years , so I felt like that was a good honor to bestow upon

44:22

him . Yeah , he was lucky to get that he was

44:24

lucky he was lucky to get that . I don't know what's

44:26

up with the lights . I don't know why the lights keep coming up and on , alfred's

44:30

gonna have to fix that , but anyway . So

44:32

, listen , I think that is pretty much it

44:34

.

44:34

We got to get on a plane , yeah

44:36

we got to get on a plane , we got to get out of here .

44:38

So listen everyone , make sure you check

44:40

out locumstorycom so you

44:42

can figure out more stories , more unbiased

44:44

information about how Locums

44:46

works , how to basically incorporate

44:48

how one Locums company will work with another

44:50

Locums company , and also check

44:53

out this

44:55

right here AACOM

44:57

Educating Leaders Conference that happens on a yearly

44:59

basis . Check out Metta Christie , dr

45:02

Metta Christie and what she meant to

45:04

the Osteopathic Committee and we're going

45:06

to get back to our normal scheduled episodes

45:08

after this and we'll go from

45:10

there . Anything else you want to say .

45:11

No , I just you know I'm excited

45:13

to get back to our kids .

45:15

Yeah , they're waiting for us . Earplugs

45:18

ready to go . All right , y'all , we'll

45:20

catch you guys on the next one .

45:23

Peace , peace .