0:00

Welcome

0:15

to doctor and devotion. A podcast that explores

0:18

Christian faith and practice from a reformed Baptist

0:20

perspective. My name is Joe Thorne. I'm the lead pastor

0:22

of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois.

0:25

And if you guys know anything

0:27

about me, you know when I travel, I

0:30

look for certain things. If I am

0:33

If I'm in California or Texas

0:36

or New York, I look for

0:38

the cigar shop. I look

0:40

for the coffee shop and I look for the donut shop.

0:42

Those are three priorities that I have.

0:45

These are three of the greatest

0:47

worldly gifts that God has given me at least that

0:49

I appreciate. And I'm super

0:51

pumped for us to bring on somebody who knows

0:53

a whole lot about, especially coffee.

0:57

His name is Eric Anderson. He is a

0:59

friend of mine. He's a member of our church

1:01

and he owns a roasting

1:03

company. Eric, thanks for coming on, man. Hey, man. Great to

1:05

be here. Thanks for having me. Man, this is

1:07

gonna be I'm so I've been looking forward to this.

1:09

Like, the idea popped in. We're in

1:11

the same small group. Yep. And the idea just popped

1:13

in the mail. Like, yeah. Why why are we talking

1:15

about coffee on

1:17

the podcast? We could. Absolutely.

1:19

It's about time. Well, I fly with me here. And then

1:21

I said, well, everybody loves coffee and then you start to give me

1:23

percentage of the Americans that do it all. I'm

1:25

like, okay. I I really do need to bring them on because I

1:28

probably don't know what I'm talking about. I

1:30

was like, everybody should love coffee.

1:32

I think there's a way for everybody. I think

1:34

a lot of people who don't like coffee. It's like a lot of

1:36

people don't like Calvivism because they were exposed

1:38

to some jerk Calvinist. And they're

1:40

like, well, like, oh, hi, calvinism. Calvinism is

1:42

a worse. So I'm like, no. You had bad calvinism. Yep.

1:45

There's good calvinism. It's like

1:47

there's good coffee back. Coffee. It's exactly

1:49

the same thing. I we got those two things just

1:51

lined up perfectly. Now do you did

1:54

you grow up eleven coffee? Like, what did you eat, like, a little

1:56

kid drinking coffee or something? Kinda,

1:58

my grandfather actually used to drink really

2:00

crappy coffee, but he would take the sugar cubes

2:02

that he had in the shop, and he would dip them in his

2:04

coffee and give me sugar too. So

2:07

it was literally sugar with a little

2:09

bit of coffee flavor to it. So but,

2:11

yeah, it just grew up all around on

2:13

coffee. And definitely

2:15

bad coffee. I mean, I'm a child in the eighties. There

2:17

was no specialty coffee back there. No. So

2:20

You you there was Folgers. That was Folgers.

2:22

And if you were drinking the

2:24

good stuff, it was Maxwell House. Max?

2:28

Was it fill it to the rim with

2:31

rim? Is that what it is? Yeah. Yes. I mean,

2:33

that's that's one I haven't heard for a while. It was always,

2:35

you know, good to the last around. Yep.

2:37

Yeah. That little park later. So

2:39

I remember that stuff. And then there was

2:41

one Valdez. Yeah. Juan

2:44

Valdez, that's that's actually still a thing

2:46

down in Columbia. Okay. So that's there's

2:48

Juan Valdez cafes. Mhmm. And it

2:50

was he was a he was icon

2:52

for the Colombian Coffee marketing

2:55

company. So am I is my memory right? Am I

2:57

remembering him in, like, a burrow? No. I

2:59

can't remember it. Absolutely, man. Yeah.

3:01

So I yeah. I was drinking coffee.

3:05

Like, sit my dad's here and there because, you know,

3:07

he would put a little bit of sugar in there or something.

3:09

But my I was interested because my we

3:11

moved my parents in with us, and they both

3:13

since passed away. But we moved my parents in

3:15

with us when my daughter was about

3:17

four. Three and a half or four. And

3:20

she would come and sit on my father's

3:22

lap in the early morning and he would

3:24

give her a spoonful of coffee

3:27

with sugar. Oh, yeah. And that's burned

3:29

into her brain. Yep. You know? Absolutely. It's

3:31

it's it's amazing how it just, like, you

3:33

remember that first coffee experience without

3:35

a doubt. Love it. Oh, unless you get,

3:37

you know, you know, SIP somebody's

3:39

terrible black coffee that might not be that

3:41

might not be the best. I'm not really sure.

3:44

So help us understand you are a coffee

3:46

roaster. Right. What is what

3:48

is a coffee roaster? Like, people

3:50

might see you own fresh ground roasting

3:54

people drive by. They see that sign. They see your coffee

3:56

all over the place. But what does a roaster do?

3:58

I I know it's I know it's in the term. I know it's right

4:00

there, but explain what you actually do.

4:02

Yeah. So when we get the coffee, it's

4:04

like really small and green and

4:07

kinda hard and not edible

4:09

or drinkable in any way. So we

4:11

put it in a roasting machine.

4:13

It's just a big drum. It turns around and heats

4:16

stuff up. For a period

4:18

of time until it turns brown,

4:20

and we make coffee beans out of it. So

4:23

we get all coffees from all over the world, and

4:25

we roast them all up different ways from light roast

4:27

to dark roast to -- Okay. -- that we need.

4:30

So, yeah, listen, in some of the reading that

4:32

I've done on coffee, roasters, I

4:34

get the impression. Tell me if I'm wrong.

4:36

I get the impression that there

4:38

is a genuinely unique

4:40

experience with each roast. Especially

4:42

roasting, like, certain beans from certain places.

4:44

Like, there's don't know if it's called a batch

4:46

or whatever, but there's almost, like,

4:48

I get the impression that you could keep a diary,

4:50

and maybe you guys do. Of, like, the

4:53

what's happening is you're roasting a particular

4:55

batch. If I'm using a a wrong term, please

4:57

correct me. Is is it that way? Is each Yeah.

4:59

No. Baches exactly. Okay. What what

5:02

it would be. And, yeah,

5:04

I mean, every coffee is unique.

5:07

And when you're in the specialty

5:09

coffee like world like we are, not only is

5:11

every coffee unique, but every region

5:13

is unique in different countries

5:16

and every every harvest is

5:18

unique. Things happen with weather

5:20

and all sorts of stuff that changes things every

5:22

year that we see in the season from season to season.

5:24

So Yeah. That's

5:26

that's what makes it. And from my my

5:28

perspective kind of fun. Yeah. And

5:30

frustrating on some levels, but And you

5:32

can see that it would you know, there's a science

5:35

and an to it. Yeah. Right? Because you've gotta be

5:37

able to flex and try different

5:39

things and experiment. Right? And

5:42

different coffee roasters can take exactly the

5:44

same coffee from the same farm or the same

5:46

whatever and roast it different ways,

5:49

and it just makes it huge. Yeah.

5:51

That's kind of a little touch that we get to put

5:53

on it. a lot of Is it also true

5:55

that you can be an amazing grocer, but if you

5:57

get garbage beans, there's not a whole lot you can do.

5:59

Oh, yeah. You you gotta have good stuff.

6:01

Start out on the watch. So crap.

6:03

So you said you got you get these butte

6:05

beans from all over the world. Yep.

6:07

Green. They're green. They're they're coming in. So

6:09

how do you even start there? Like, when you you're

6:12

like, okay, hey, we're we wanna have a particular

6:14

kind of we wanna have a coffee. And

6:17

you're looking at regions. Let's say you chose a particular

6:19

region region because you like the

6:21

flavor profile or whatever. I don't understand this.

6:23

No. That's exactly it. So you figured it out.

6:25

But like where you start? How do you know who

6:27

to talk to? I mean, you started this business.

6:29

Right. So, like, how do you even go, like, oh, I'm

6:31

just gonna throw a dart. Like,

6:34

with is there a website? What do you do?

6:36

There's an unbelievable number

6:38

of green coffee importers in

6:40

the world. It's I mean, there are some

6:42

really big companies around too that do it. And

6:44

it just seems like everybody with a connection

6:46

in a different country is able to put coffee

6:48

on a container and ship it over. So

6:51

we're to the point now where we've kinda narrowed

6:53

down who we deal with the three or four different

6:55

ones that we deal with. But what we really like to

6:57

do is work

6:59

with specific organizations around

7:02

the world who are doing things

7:04

in different coffee growing communities to

7:06

help their communities. Mhmm. And they all work different

7:08

ways. Different organizations have different

7:10

models of how they work. But like,

7:13

we're connected right now with the organization

7:15

in Honduras called the Honduras and

7:17

Coffee Alliance, and they are the for

7:19

profit branch of an organization

7:21

called Empowering Education International, which

7:24

is a Christian child

7:26

sponsorship program that works in Honduras

7:28

and actually started working in Uganda

7:30

recently too. So and what

7:32

we get to do is work with they

7:34

put us in touch with specific producers our

7:36

case, one family

7:38

Maria and Edwin Bottarona,

7:41

which I just had a FaceTime with them, which is

7:43

so cool because we can, you know,

7:45

sit here now with technology and FaceTime

7:47

with people who are growing our coffee, which

7:50

ten years ago when I started, that was

7:52

a rare crisis. If

7:54

if anything else. So it was a lot it was pretty

7:56

cool to be able to do that. But

7:58

then, you know, we get

8:00

to purchase from them year over year over

8:02

year, which gives them a great way to

8:04

build a business that's sustainable

8:06

for them. That's super

8:08

cool. Alright. So you're looking

8:10

for because, like, it's

8:12

basically the the the market is flooded

8:15

with these pre

8:17

roasted beans. What do you call them? Just green

8:19

unroasted coffee. Yeah. So the green unroasted coffee

8:22

is just just everywhere. There's a million

8:24

different choices to have. So you you

8:26

you you you over time have been able to narrow it

8:28

down. And you're you like working with companies.

8:31

Is this fair trade? Is that still a term that

8:33

people use? Fair trade? Yes, it is. But

8:35

fair trade is actually certification that's

8:37

done by an organization. So somebody

8:40

needs to pay for that certification.

8:42

Oh, okay. So,

8:44

yeah, that's that's fair

8:46

trade USA, fair trade internationally. So that doesn't

8:48

mean what some people think it means. Because I think

8:50

most people think it means like, oh, wow. Fair

8:52

trade means this is coming. We're helping poor farmers

8:54

or we're helping to sustain. Does there

8:56

really There is an element of that that it

8:58

happens. I'll give you my opinion

9:00

here. I'll probably get you know, we're

9:02

gonna get nasty emails about this, but

9:04

I'm not convinced Fair Trade actually

9:06

does as much good as they

9:09

claim to do if you read their website.

9:11

Okay. The actual numbers and I've

9:13

talked to coffee farmers and stuff like that,

9:15

the numbers that they get from

9:17

doing fair trade. Just done

9:19

that. So how do you how do

9:21

you find a a an organization

9:24

Yep. To work with or a farm, you

9:26

know, whatever. How do you find the ones

9:28

that are taking care of their employees

9:30

and and doing well? Yeah. A lot of

9:32

them are the we get introduced through

9:34

importers that we work with here.

9:36

We like to work with what we call a direct

9:38

trade model. Is a little bit of a nebulous

9:40

term. Unfortunately, that's not really

9:42

well defined in the industry yet,

9:44

but we'd like to work with

9:46

organizations as much as we can and a lot of

9:48

times get introduced to those guys through our

9:50

importers that we work here in the

9:52

United States. So -- Okay. -- we do

9:54

work with importers, you know.

9:56

It I don't, like, go down and come back with stuff in the

9:58

overheads. Right. Right. They're

10:01

getting stuff to port and on a ship

10:03

and through customs and had such a huge

10:06

mess that I don't ever wanna have. Right. That's

10:08

a business in and of it. That's a business in and of. We

10:10

let those guys deal with it. So so you

10:12

you you talk to them because they know all of

10:14

the far all these people in there can tell you, oh, you're

10:16

looking for this kind of an operation. Right. And then

10:18

it costs a little more, but,

10:20

exactly, worth it because they're about what you're about.

10:22

Exactly. And they can put us in touch with you

10:24

know, they'll say, hey, we've got this farm over

10:26

here, then this guy's doing a great job, and,

10:28

you know, that's the way we'll kinda get that

10:30

introduction. And then that guy will still sell to

10:32

that importer, and I'll technically buy from

10:34

the importer, but, you know, there's

10:36

a middleman in there. Okay.

10:38

But have you ever have you

10:40

ever ordered like a batch of coffee

10:42

and and it gets there and you're like, oh,

10:44

this is awful. That's terrible.

10:46

Absolutely. I I actually didn't. There's Do

10:48

you just eat it then? Do you, like, what do you do

10:50

with it? You gotta make a decision in

10:55

legally, there's a contract that we signed

10:57

ahead of time that says that it needs to be a

10:59

certain quality by the time it gets to me.

11:01

Okay. So in most

11:03

situations, I would absolutely have the

11:05

ability to fuse that shipping. Okay. So

11:07

if it's bad, it's it's not just because,

11:09

oh, they just taste bad this time. There's a reason

11:11

why there's a reason why it tastes bad. And

11:14

actually, in one time, there was a

11:16

a really bad batch that forgot to go through

11:18

a serious sorting process. And it was it

11:20

was it wasn't just off

11:22

it was bad and wow. And I ended

11:24

up buying it from the importer anyway. It

11:26

was actually from the folks that we just talked about the

11:28

Honda and Coffee Alliance because

11:31

I was just trying to establish a relationship

11:33

with them. I wanted to make sure that the farmer

11:35

got paid -- Mhmm. -- as well. So

11:37

I I bought it at a significant discount,

11:39

and we roast under a different brand

11:41

name, but, you know, I still bought the

11:43

coffee. So that's a bit of a challenge

11:45

too. So how did how did how did we figure

11:47

this out? Like, historically. Like

11:49

I said, you look at these there's there's green. There's nothing

11:51

there. Yeah. There is nothing there. And somebody

11:53

figured, I can roast it.

11:56

And then I can smash

11:58

shit. And then I could soak

12:00

water. Like, it seems like a whole lot. Do you know?

12:02

Like, how how did it There's like

12:04

legends and stuff like that and there's some I

12:07

like legends. Legends are great. There's

12:09

a there's a legends the way the

12:11

way the legend goes and there's really

12:13

zero proof. Yeah. That's why Okay. This is

12:15

absolutely fact. Absolutely fact.

12:17

So you can go to the trust desk

12:19

or vital. There's

12:21

a legend that there was a goat

12:23

herder named Kaldi that lived in the Ethiopia

12:26

region years ago, and he found a saw that

12:28

when his goats

12:30

ate fruit off this one particular tree or

12:32

bush that they would be more

12:34

active. So he decided to eat them

12:36

and he realized that it

12:38

did the same thing for him. So

12:41

Even been active. Like, they were

12:43

they were all up at the end of the week because of the

12:45

caffeine up there. So then, you know,

12:47

he brought the

12:49

the fruit to to the the

12:51

tribal whatever that he got in there,

12:53

and the tribal leader got all

12:55

mad at him through it in the fire. And

12:57

and that's where we are. And that's all about it. That

12:59

is so so wrong.

13:01

Right. Anyway, it's a fun story. But but it

13:04

I I can see why we that

13:06

story would would be told because we do

13:08

discover a lot of things kind of by accident.

13:10

Right? It's like, 0II

13:12

burnt I was trying to do some, and I burnt

13:14

Okay. So the actual interesting story

13:16

is coffee like centuries

13:18

ago was more like tea. Not

13:21

because wasn't roast, but they it's a cherry

13:23

and that we right now, we roast and

13:25

drink the seed in the side of the cherry, but they

13:27

used to make take the pulp

13:29

and everything on the outside and make it more like a

13:31

tea than anything else. So So it

13:33

it it more than likely was gradually

13:36

discovered. They're working with the cherry and everything they

13:38

keep getting down as we do. Like, what what about what

13:40

if I play with this a little bit? Let's do a little

13:42

bit It was burning. Can you smoke it?

13:44

That's exactly what it was.

13:47

So when you're when you're looking at coffee, is

13:50

there a particular region that's your favorite? I

13:53

tend to generate

13:56

go with, like, a lot of a lot

13:58

of African coffees. Yeah. So

14:00

Ethiopia, Kenya, kinda my favorite

14:02

areas, but mean, I was

14:04

actually just down in Colombia and

14:06

had some fantastic coffees down there.

14:08

So that was a lot of fun. Yeah. There's there's

14:11

great coffee in almost every growing

14:13

region. The world people. That's

14:15

cool. That's nice to hear. Yeah. I

14:17

know, you know, because Brian now compared to Brian

14:19

here. Yeah. He's a big girlfriend. I was just

14:21

mentioning this to you last night how

14:23

like, I when I my regular meetings with

14:25

him at his house, he always has a new

14:27

coffee that he has

14:29

ground to very specific specifications.

14:32

And then he does the pour

14:34

over with measuring temperature.

14:36

He does all that good scale. And it

14:38

is it is some of the best

14:40

coffee that just love the experience of just

14:42

drinking just the black coffee with Brian.

14:44

Yeah. I love it. And but he was up to bring that

14:46

up to say. I've learned from Brian.

14:48

Like, I favor Ethiopian coffees.

14:50

Right? And when I've gone to places

14:52

and I've asked, oh, where's this from? You know?

14:54

There was a coffee based locally.

14:58

Everybody was talking about it because he wouldn't he refused to shut

15:00

down the recovery. But I I went there one

15:02

time and I was like, oh, hey. I

15:04

go, what's what

15:06

rage where's this from? he he gave me

15:08

the name of a company. He was like, no. No. Like, what region?

15:10

Like, where and he he was like, it's

15:12

it's dark. Alright.

15:15

There you go. McDonald's. I'm just gonna be the Coke. I'm

15:17

fine. You don't know what's going on? I can't waste my

15:19

time. I was like, okay. Because it's not really because

15:21

that's a coffee place. But it's not really

15:23

a coffee place. Apparently not. If they can't tell you

15:25

where the coffee's from, it's usually kind of a kind

15:27

of a thing. Okay. You know? Is that

15:30

I like it because there's a there's like a

15:32

whole culture and a ritual. I like ritual. I

15:34

like routine. I like culture. And there

15:36

is there's there's all like, you can do

15:38

this with wine. You can do this all kinds of

15:40

things. But with coffee, when there really is

15:42

a deep, like, history culture and

15:44

ritual to, like, everything from preparing

15:46

to appreciate Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I

15:48

love just for myself getting up

15:50

in morning and I do a

15:52

pour over every morning and it's like

15:54

the ritual of going through that

15:56

and making my coffee is just it's

15:58

almost like the kick start for my day.

16:00

Well, it's good. One of the reasons

16:02

that I think ritual is helpful. Is

16:05

because it forces you to slow

16:07

down. And in

16:09

our, you know, quick fix, get it

16:11

immediately sort of environment

16:13

or culture that we live in.

16:16

There's there's not a lot of value

16:18

placed, at least on the front end, for

16:20

it, hey, do it. Take your time with this. Right?

16:22

Like, I I when I used to shave my head, I

16:24

shave my head. So but I used to shave it with an old

16:26

safety razor. Okay. Because

16:28

the blades are super cheap, and

16:30

it was cool. And it was it just I slowed me down. Like,

16:32

I'm gonna slow down. I'm just gonna take my time this

16:34

morning. And then I at some point, I

16:36

realized, like, my mornings have I have more to

16:38

do. So, like, that's not a tradition

16:40

or a ritual that I can maintain. So I

16:43

gotta give it up in order to do some other

16:45

things that I value more. But the

16:47

idea of slowing down to, like,

16:49

do a press or pour over whatever you like,

16:51

or maybe you just watch your your

16:53

drip, like, you know, that there's that that

16:55

slowdown in weight Even though you

16:57

know you got things to do is good for your

16:59

brain. Yep. It allows you to think and kind of

17:01

mentally prepare. Personally, I like I

17:03

not only the slowing down, but the

17:06

repetitiveness. Mhmm. It's the same thing --

17:08

Yeah. -- that I do every day.

17:10

Yeah. And I don't

17:12

change it. Don't, you know and

17:16

okay. I'm on doc and devo podcast. But let's

17:18

that's liturgy. Yeah. No. Absolutely. It's

17:20

that's the thing that you do that's predictable. That's

17:22

just kinda you just think you don't have

17:24

to think a whole lot about. Mhmm. But yet it's still

17:27

meaningful. It is meaningful. Yeah. I

17:29

mean, I think, again, a lot of people,

17:31

you know, don't appreciate

17:33

coffee because they haven't learned

17:35

to appreciate coffee. And I remember having conversations

17:37

with people years ago.

17:40

During the blogging heyday. And

17:43

they would say things like these are grown men.

17:45

If I have to learn to

17:47

like something, it's not worth liking.

17:49

I'm like, well, I'm always like, oh my god, your wife didn't think

17:52

that well. Right? You're done. And she definitely

17:54

the one to like you. You're crappy

17:56

self. But, like, most

18:00

things that are really

18:02

good are complex

18:04

and rich. And they're

18:06

not necessarily easily understood,

18:09

discerned, or appreciated sugar. Num

18:11

Num. Easy. Ever that's what

18:13

kids like. It's white kids, like, catch

18:15

up. Catch up. None of mustard. Well, that's more

18:17

complex. It's a little big. So it's

18:19

like, if I have to learn to like it, like, if

18:21

I have to choke it down, it's like,

18:23

what's not And and so they don't even understand, like, there's actually

18:25

a process to learning to appreciate

18:27

something, which is small portion,

18:29

you know, slow, but here and there. Yep.

18:31

Absolutely. You know, So I think there's,

18:33

like, such good value in learning

18:36

to like things. Like, I think it's a part of growing up. You

18:38

you didn't like, I didn't like mushrooms.

18:40

I love mushrooms now. Absolutely.

18:42

And I I know a lot of people in that

18:45

love specialty coffee. And

18:47

you can usually talk to them about, like,

18:49

what was first time

18:51

that you had just a really good cup of

18:53

coffee that blew you away. Yeah. And

18:55

most of them can point to some time where they

18:57

went up. Yeah. Had that this cup of coffee

18:59

in a man that just changed my life. You

19:01

said something good. Yeah. I can do that with beer

19:03

too. Yep. Because I hated beer.

19:05

I never liked And even in high school when

19:07

I was vegan, everybody was drinking beers. I'd

19:09

be like, it's gross. I never liked it.

19:12

then I said, I was like, I'm going to learn to

19:15

appreciate it. So I I would try different

19:17

things. At the first period, I was ever

19:19

like, hey, now. It was

19:21

a Smithix. It was just a it was an Irish

19:23

speaker. It was a Smithix. And I was

19:25

like, that's that's yeah. That's

19:27

pretty good. And then I've gone on to appreciate other things.

19:29

I'm not a big beard drinker. But

19:31

but, yeah, playing with it, tasting it.

19:33

Listen, learning to appreciate something

19:36

is going to take time and it's gonna open up

19:39

your world for you. And whether it's

19:41

beer or bourbon or

19:43

coffee or whatever, there's so many different

19:45

ones out you're gonna find something

19:47

that you like. Yeah. It that's part of the

19:49

fun. Right? It's like, oh, you can go as deep as you

19:51

want or not. Like, I

19:53

I could go super deep into coffee. I don't.

19:55

I let all my friends do that heavy lifting for

19:57

me. Right. And then they just give me the coffee. That's good. And

19:59

I like this is how I like it. But you can't. You can

20:01

go as deep and that's that's part of the

20:03

fun. Let's talk about this because this is one of

20:05

the things that occurred to me when we were hanging

20:07

out last night was, you

20:10

know, coffee has become

20:12

a much bigger part of American

20:15

culture. And

20:17

our lifetime. Right. More so than it was our parents.

20:19

It was very much an adult

20:23

beverage that was consumed at

20:25

particular times. And it

20:27

was twenty a sense cup. Yes. And yeah.

20:29

And now, it's all

20:31

day, every day, all ages. Mhmm.

20:33

It was weird when a little kid was drinking. He'd

20:35

be like, whoa. Whoa. They can drink a Coke, which

20:37

is the same thing, by the way, in terms of caffeine

20:40

out. But but like coffee, like, oh my

20:42

goodness. But now it like, it's

20:44

everywhere. It's become a big part

20:46

of American culture, but it's also become a part

20:48

of of Christian culture,

20:51

of of many church cultures. Do

20:53

you see now I know gonna

20:56

have to try to be objective here.

20:58

Is is it an

21:01

opinion Is it a good thing? Is

21:03

it a bad thing? And what let me ask you

21:05

this way. This is how I like to ask questions for

21:07

myself. In what way, can

21:10

coffee be a compliment to

21:13

a church culture. I

21:17

think what what you said right there

21:19

is is key and you say you said the

21:21

word complement. And in my

21:23

opinion, I think you can

21:25

have great fellowship

21:27

over a cup of coffee no

21:30

matter what kind of coffee it is. I

21:32

get together with some guys down at the

21:34

Geneva diner on

21:36

occasion and they have They have

21:38

terrible coffee. It's the

21:40

worst stuff in the world.

21:43

But, you know, the guys that I'm

21:45

with and the fellowship that we have

21:47

is absolutely fantastic. Nice.

21:50

And that makes it worthwhile.

21:52

Mhmm. You know? So

21:54

you it's it's who you're with around

21:56

a cup of coffee. Now that being

21:59

said, it can be a

22:01

really bad cup of coffee

22:03

can be a distraction too from

22:05

what you're doing. Yeah. That's good. When you go out

22:07

and you get the nasty cup of coffee that's, like,

22:09

burnt on the bottom of the glass giraffe because

22:11

been sitting on the heater for, you know, eighteen

22:14

hours. Yeah. You know, and you pour it in a

22:16

cup and you hand it to the visitor at the

22:18

church and say, hey,

22:20

welcome. That's like It's

22:22

the worst thing in the world. Yeah. It's

22:24

like, oh, this is my church. I

22:26

love my church, and I get a bad

22:28

cup of coffee. And I well, that's not the norm and whatever so

22:30

big deal. But for but certainly for guests

22:32

and visitors, that that can listen. I

22:35

listen. Okay. Coffee

22:37

doesn't matter when it comes

22:39

to the worship of our tribunal.

22:41

Right. Right. Yeah. But it does

22:43

matter culturally in

22:45

in that we're extending

22:47

something to somebody. It's offering them

22:49

something. It's hospitality. Yes. You would Which

22:51

is a biblical thing. Yeah. You would not do

22:53

that in your home. You wouldn't give somebody

22:56

a bad meal or, you know, the worst thing

22:58

-- Oh, you would feel so bad. -- you feel terrible about

23:00

it. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So

23:03

often, you know, in certain situations,

23:05

we are totally willing

23:07

to hand out. And going, it's not

23:09

only true, it's businesses. It's a lot of

23:11

it. And it's interesting because you talked about,

23:13

like, hey, listen, I can have bad coffee but good fellowship

23:15

with these guys at this place, but I know what

23:17

I'm getting into. Right. Yeah. But,

23:20

you know, and again, it's

23:22

not a coffee joint. It's a diner. Right. Right?

23:24

You're going there for some eggs over easy,

23:26

some toast, and some hash browns, grilled extra,

23:28

you know, and the bacon. Anyways, I you

23:30

know what I like? But at at at

23:33

church, why has coffee

23:36

become such a part? Because, you know,

23:38

and again, I've been Well,

23:40

when you guys started coming here. Shut

23:43

up, Eric. When Eric and and and

23:45

and and Chris started coming here

23:47

his wife, they they

23:49

they they very graciously pointed out that our

23:51

coffee sucked. Oh, yeah.

23:54

Like, Kerrigan in the pot. It is like terrible. He was like, what

23:56

do you You know, there are

23:58

like, you can actually get, like, nice coffee

24:01

and get some things going, and

24:03

we were more than happy. To

24:05

get in on that. And so

24:07

thank you thank you for that. Gotta

24:09

do it. So but but

24:11

most churches that I go that that I visited

24:14

the past ten years.

24:16

The vast majority. I can't

24:18

say all because I can't remember them all. They

24:21

all have coffee. Yeah. And

24:23

and most of most of them that I've been to

24:26

have had decent coffee. I

24:28

can usually tell

24:31

what it's not gonna be good. But anyways,

24:33

why is that? Why has coffee become because

24:35

I don't remember being that

24:38

they had it for Sunday school classes. That was the that was if

24:40

you had wanted coffee on Sunday, it was in Sunday

24:42

school class, but when you're coming to into the worship

24:44

service, there's no coffee anywhere. Yeah.

24:46

Nobody nobody never used to be that way. But, yeah, it's all over the place.

24:48

I think in mirrors what's happening in the

24:50

culture right now. I mean, there didn't used

24:52

to be drive through coffee shops all over the

24:55

place either. And now

24:57

they're pretty much everywhere. And,

24:59

you know, we've got, I don't know, six or eight

25:01

coffee shops right here in Geneva --

25:03

Yeah. -- or Saint Charles --

25:05

Yeah. -- all very close and all very close. of

25:07

them closing at three PM. Really

25:09

annoyed me. Work on that. Because I Alright.

25:11

So and III think, like,

25:14

Like, you you you were talking about this. Like, there's a the

25:17

shared experience. Yeah. Right?

25:19

Over something good. Mhmm. So you're

25:21

having a shared experience with those guys at the diner, but the

25:23

coffee doesn't play like an

25:26

instrumental role. Right? It's not, but man, it's

25:29

if it wasn't there, It

25:31

would feel weird. It would feel weird. Wouldn't it?

25:33

Yeah. So it's like it's it's it's an

25:36

accompaniment to it, but it's not the

25:38

thing that's is it the thing draws

25:40

you there? No. Definitely not. Okay. It

25:42

doesn't draw. So like at church, like the thing that

25:44

draws us to church hopefully is the truth of

25:46

God, the gospel on and you've got this complimentary thing that's

25:48

a part of the culture. But

25:50

when it's good, when that's oh,

25:53

that's another shared experience. Like,

25:55

oh, it's Like, this is really good. And we have

25:57

we have the best cocktail right

25:59

now. We don't have the best preacher in

26:01

the world. We don't have the best worship band

26:03

in the world. We don't have

26:05

the best facility, that's for sure,

26:07

in the world. But we have the best people and

26:09

we have the best coffee. Yeah. Yeah. We do have

26:11

good coffee, man. Yeah. That coffee

26:13

is So I think I

26:16

think there's something about a shared

26:18

experience. I think, you know, just giving

26:20

somebody something good you

26:22

know, it feels good. Something yeah. I

26:24

mean, you've put at least a little bit of

26:26

effort into making sure it's --

26:28

Yeah. -- season and, you know, it

26:30

feels good to rather than

26:32

having to apologize -- Mhmm. -- when you hand

26:34

it to him. Yeah. Well, it's and it's you you use

26:36

the word hospitality. Right? Hospitality.

26:38

It's it's hospitality. It's it's loving your neighbor. Right. I

26:40

know we're talking about coffee, but like a lot

26:42

of guys, especially in some

26:45

of our reformed Baptist reformed

26:48

circles. They're they're very

26:51

appropriately dialed in on

26:54

on you know, the regular

26:56

principle of corporate worship and

26:58

those essential elements and then

27:00

understanding, you know, all of these different things that are

27:02

Audiaphora, you can take or leave them, use godly

27:04

wisdom. And when you start talking

27:06

to them about things like, well, what are your

27:08

thoughts on assimilation? They

27:10

have no idea what we're talking about. And

27:12

they when I explained to him, like, it's the

27:14

process the the formalized process by

27:16

which a person becomes moves from

27:18

first time visitor to fully functioning

27:21

member. And they're like, well, they just become a part of the church. They haven't

27:23

really thought through like how it works. And it I've

27:25

seen it like breakdown where they it's the

27:27

same thing goes with hospitality on

27:29

the front end. On the front end of people

27:31

walking into the door, like, you know, how do

27:33

you welcome people into your building? Like, what

27:36

is oh, hey, bathrooms are here. You got some

27:38

kids here, so you sign them up, by the way, we've got some really

27:40

good coffee over there. Like, it

27:42

it's not going to well, for some people at

27:44

will. But it's not it's not going to

27:46

make them leave your church or stay at your church

27:49

necessarily. And it certainly isn't the most

27:51

important thing, but it it is

27:53

it is a true gift that you're offering

27:55

somebody that's that's

27:57

generally culturally appropriate. Yeah.

28:00

Absolutely. I mean, I would, you

28:02

know, there's the

28:04

important parts about going to church are

28:06

definitely not coffee.

28:09

But at the same time, if

28:11

you're reaching out and trying to assimilate like

28:13

that. It's it's key for --

28:15

Yeah. -- to to give something that's good.

28:17

Do we care about how comfortable the chairs are?

28:21

Some degree. Yeah. Right. We have to because they got

28:23

those old Catholic pews with the not at

28:25

the top of your back hurts, so you're not a lot of false sleep.

28:27

Those are terrible. You know, we bought

28:29

we bought when we got rid

28:31

of our pews and got shares years

28:34

ago, it wasn't for aesthetics that

28:36

I mean, that was an aspect of

28:38

it, but it was because we can fit more people into

28:40

that sanctuary space with seats than we

28:42

came with pews because people will naturally

28:44

spread out. They don't want to touch side

28:46

to side. Unless they're married and even

28:49

sometimes, and then I don't wanna do that, Brian.

28:51

And so we got but we but we spent more

28:53

money on Bertolini chair

28:55

because we wanted them to last and we wanted them to have enough

28:57

padding for people to not hurt. Right. We we go

28:59

for an hour and twenty or more sometimes.

29:02

Six songs on a forty minute sermon. So, like,

29:04

let's you know, so if we

29:06

care about that, you know, like, when people like, would you

29:08

care about the landscaping? I bet a lot

29:10

of these church care about landscape, but they the

29:13

coffee is not worth talking about when

29:15

that's something that you're giving somebody that they can

29:17

immediately experience and appreciate. Eight.

29:19

Right? I had a pastor at a

29:21

previous church that I was in when

29:23

I was living in Tennessee. And I

29:25

remember him saying specifically because we were

29:27

talking about a new building potentially and stuff like

29:29

that. And he said, you know, the

29:32

aesthetics or the the building itself needs

29:34

to kind of match community

29:36

that you're serving. And I think coffee

29:38

goes for the same way. If you're in a community

29:40

that so many of us are right now that

29:43

specialty coffee is a thing and they're all over the

29:45

place. You need to have somebody that something

29:47

there that people that you're serving

29:49

are gonna appreciate. Yeah. Listen,

29:52

if if ten percent of our

29:54

people wanted coffee. It wouldn't

29:56

be, like, wouldn't be as big a dude. I'll be like, alright.

29:58

Well, here's maybe a pot, but or just pick it up

30:00

on your way in. Yeah. But a

30:02

ton of our people want coffee. And this and

30:04

I also Like, remember what I said last night

30:06

statistically? Sixty four percent. Sixty four percent

30:08

of Americans drink coffee every day.

30:11

Sixty four percent of Americans drink coffee every day. So

30:13

that means it's a higher percentage of people that are drinking

30:15

coffee in general. Right. Yep. Alright.

30:17

Throughout the week. So yeah. I mean, I

30:19

just think that because I don't drink coffee every

30:21

day because I don't make it. We'll

30:23

pray for you. So, you know, and

30:25

when I when I used to make it every day, I

30:27

did that French press because I I easiest

30:29

one that gave me the taste I like the most.

30:32

But I I don't

30:34

drink coffee every day, but I drink

30:36

coffee throughout the week. I I love

30:38

it. And III was just thinking, like, some people were

30:41

like, do you know how much if we're gonna pay for

30:43

it? If we buy good coffee,

30:46

and we brew it every Sunday. That's gonna cost

30:48

us a few grand, depending on

30:50

the size of your church, like, you know, every

30:53

month or whatever it is. I don't pay attention

30:55

to the budget. Right. Right. He

30:57

pays attention to the budget. Jimmy pays attention

30:59

to the budget. I just submit

31:01

to the budget. But, like,

31:04

for me, it's like, okay. First of all,

31:06

if it's worth if

31:08

it's worthy of it, like, if it's

31:10

it it I I would say it's worth it. Here and

31:13

also, like, listen, if your most of your

31:15

congregation wants it, and it's

31:17

like, okay. Then why not? There

31:19

It's it's God's money, but he entrusted it to them

31:21

and know they're entrusting it to, why not spend some of that money

31:23

on something like that? Exactly. And it's if

31:25

you break it down, yes, it's

31:28

Yes. The coffee that we're buying here

31:30

is more expensive than Folgers.

31:32

Yeah. No doubt. But if you were to

31:34

compare it, you know, to the rest of the rest of the

31:36

budget items that are Oh, I it's that we're

31:38

feeling it's it's like, no. I mean, even even good stuff.

31:40

Yeah. Well, for a church of two hundred, I

31:42

mean, we're not No. Like, stop. Just

31:44

stop it. Like, because

31:47

people like, not not people. And it's we've never

31:49

had any complaints from anybody about the coffee

31:51

budget. Right. But, like, you know, an elder will be like,

31:53

well, that's a lot of money for the

31:55

budget. And they love the coffee. They're just saying, like, you

31:57

know, like, you know, when ten years ago,

31:59

we didn't spend that much. And it's like -- Yeah. --

32:01

because there's more coffee coming

32:03

in and going out This is this

32:05

is all good. I I like

32:07

it, man. I I like I like I like

32:09

coffee personally, but I like that so many of

32:11

our people enjoy it. It's just

32:13

a it's a it's a it's a blessing. Right? It's

32:16

it's common grace, right,

32:18

of of god in the world that

32:20

that even does come into the

32:22

church in an appropriate cultural

32:25

sense. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's

32:27

one of my I mean, I'm

32:30

I'm in, like, an Uber coffee nerd. I mean,

32:32

it's your vocation. My

32:35

vocation. Your recreation, your

32:37

inspiration, and it. Yeah.

32:39

Whatever other shunts you want. But, yeah,

32:41

I am just Uber coffee nerd, but

32:43

one of the things that I just love about

32:45

coffee is just somehow, the

32:48

community that it brings in and the way

32:50

in just people just love to gather

32:52

around it. Yeah. And it's,

32:54

you know, good or bad.

32:56

It's it's unique in that. I think.

32:58

Yeah. I think so. I mean, and

33:00

again, even just know, like most people that I

33:02

know people that I know that don't like

33:04

coffee, love recommending good coffee to people. Yeah. Like, I don't know.

33:06

Oh, you let your coffee guy. Oh, this we got coffee over

33:08

here at our church. You kinda check it out or or here's a good

33:10

place to go, go to fresh ground. Yes.

33:12

Alright. So a a couple of a couple of other questions

33:14

that I had. Do

33:16

do you send because, like, obviously,

33:19

like, your supplying coffee here for

33:21

Redeemer. But do you

33:23

send coffee out to other churches? Oh,

33:25

yeah. We we ship all over

33:27

the US. Okay. So if there if if there

33:29

was AAA church

33:31

that was like, hey, listen. We're done

33:33

with the pods. Okay?

33:35

With those, like, those early redeemer days. And

33:38

we wanna start we wanna get some coffee.

33:40

We wanna get set up. They could call you guys.

33:42

Right? They could contact you guys, and you could

33:44

help them get set up,

33:46

recommend some blends for them. You could ship them the

33:48

coffee that they needed. Absolutely. Alright. So

33:50

do they do that at your website? Do they

33:52

do they That's way to do it is our

33:54

website. There's a link at the top says wholesale.

33:57

Click on that. That's fresh ground

33:59

roast dot com. Yep. Fresh round

34:01

roast dot com. By the way, do

34:03

you do you do you ship out that black

34:05

ice brew or whatever? Not

34:07

shipping that yet. That's liquid

34:09

and it's kinda hard and expensive to ship. Can you That's exclusive to people? I

34:11

wanna come back to that because that

34:13

stuff is, like, holy crap. Is

34:15

that that is

34:18

that stuff is great. Bro. It's definitely the

34:20

gateway drug. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That will get you okay. So

34:22

if if you guys are at

34:24

a church or something like that,

34:27

and or a business or whatever. Right? And you're looking for,

34:30

like, really good coffee.

34:32

Coffee that, like, Brian Brian's

34:34

not a

34:36

coffee snob. But he is a coffee nerd like you are.

34:38

Because knobs are pretentious and jerky.

34:40

Yeah. If you want coffee that even be like

34:42

Brian as, you know, it's not his

34:44

company, which say, this is

34:46

amazing coffee. And with

34:48

something we use, definitely check

34:50

out go to fresh ground roast

34:52

dot com. Talk to Erica, Christa, they'll tell you what you need to know. They can get you up

34:54

so you have good coffee. And

34:56

then you can follow in the way of true.

34:59

Healthy gospel center churches. Yeah. Yeah. That that I have

35:02

remember. Alright. How do you guys on are you guys on the

35:04

social media? Do do you Yeah. It was mostly

35:06

Instagram. Okay. F. G. Roast. F. G.

35:08

Roast. Alright. Alright. Okay.

35:10

So let's talk about this. So years

35:12

ago, at some point,

35:14

you're like, hey, man, you gotta you gotta try a black

35:16

ice brew. Come get

35:18

a growler. And

35:20

bro, it okay. So I got

35:22

this giant growler of, like,

35:24

liquid like, this black liquid

35:27

gold. And and and you were like, oh, you just cut it

35:29

with water. So you pour it out. You're gonna do the water

35:32

portion. I forget what it was, and I was at fifty

35:34

fifty. I don't know

35:36

about that. Oh my goodness. And so we would get it and just share

35:38

it and we would all just power through it like

35:40

while we're working and stuff. So

35:42

good. What is that? What

35:44

is cold brew coffee?

35:46

That's cold brew. So traditionally,

35:48

we'd make coffee with hot water.

35:50

And back in the day, I always

35:52

say people used to make iced coffee

35:54

in the summer, and they would take,

35:56

like, the leftover hot coffee from yesterday

35:58

and pour it over ice. Right. And it

36:00

was kinda bitter and old and nasty and watered down.

36:03

You had to really doctor that thing. Really.

36:05

Yeah. It's a cream of sugar.

36:08

Yeah. It's just all kind of nasty. So nobody like that and somebody

36:10

figured out somewhere along the way. I don't know who,

36:12

but they're genius that

36:14

if I let this coffee steep

36:18

in cold water for, like, anywhere from

36:20

eight to twenty four hours. I get

36:22

this really nice kind of sweet --

36:24

Yeah. -- full bodied concentrate. And

36:26

it makes So it is so it

36:29

comes out as a concentrate. Like,

36:31

that's more intense than

36:34

your hot drip -- Yeah. -- off the bat. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It

36:36

is. Okay. And what's the percentages? Like, with

36:38

is it like how much Are

36:42

you running it through? Or is it soaking? Like, what's going

36:44

on? It's it's just sitting there and most of

36:46

the times just sitting there in the in

36:48

the in the the beans are sitting there in the water and you

36:50

get all, like, a one to one concentrate.

36:52

Okay. We actually we sell.

36:55

We sell a lot. You sell a lot of

36:57

that stuff. Yeah. We do it we do it.

36:59

We actually re roast the beans and

37:01

then give them to a co packer

37:03

because they take like four hundred pound of

37:05

beans at a time. Okay. They keg it for me, and so

37:07

I I sell cold brew and keg's, which is

37:10

amazing. So Yeah. It's Do we

37:12

have kegrew at one of

37:14

our events? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

37:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was

37:18

fun. Alright. Yeah. That that cold brew

37:20

is is

37:22

is pretty You doctor that up, man. It's so good. I got so many good we

37:24

do a -- Yeah. -- black and bourbon, which is

37:26

the cold brew with some heavy

37:29

cream, little maple syrup, job.

37:32

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I still I

37:34

saw that recipe on a

37:36

movie one time. Oh, yeah. They call

37:38

winter coffee or I don't know what they call something. And

37:40

I was like, it didn't wasn't necessarily, you know,

37:46

cold brew, but they they but it was coffee of some sort. But it it

37:49

was it was really interesting. Like, that combination

37:51

sounds really good, but with a

37:54

yeah. With with a cold brew.

37:56

Yeah. Okay. I need some recipes. You your family's

37:58

been sending me recipes like that. A

38:00

text between you guys are

38:02

all recipes. That's really cool.

38:04

And so they they can't probably get

38:06

that. Now you actually we were selling

38:08

that in individual bottles. Yeah. We were

38:10

selling bottles. They'll do it like half gallons. Okay. Alright.

38:12

Cool. Yeah. I can't it's a can't ship

38:14

that right now. Alright. Yeah. I can

38:16

imagine a pain to ship. Okay. Alright. So

38:18

people just need to

38:20

here. People need to come and visit Chicago land, come and worship at

38:22

Redeemer. Yep. Go away from underground. You still

38:24

over there on was it Stephenson? Over on

38:26

Steven Street. Yep. Steven Street. Alright.

38:28

Yeah. Because I here's the

38:30

thing. That's where I got arrested as a

38:32

as a teenager. Okay. Yeah. Right over there.

38:34

Right? That's a more memorial marker

38:36

over there. That is that that was that for

38:38

me? I never I never read it. You know, I'm

38:40

not really good. But no, like you so there's a

38:42

on your way down to Fresh Ground roast,

38:44

if you turn right, there's a steep driveway that goes down

38:46

into the park and we're right down there, arrested

38:49

for, quote, fighting, whatever.

38:52

Everybody got arrested. Okay. Whatever. Awesome,

38:56

man. Okay. So people can go to

38:58

freshground roast

39:00

dot com. Okay. I

39:02

I do I do love your your coffee,

39:04

and I'm glad that we

39:06

didn't have it last week because

39:08

our coffee thing a busted, but we'll have we're we're

39:11

back on. Oh, and, yeah, we're

39:13

talking about doing something. So but we're we'll be

39:15

back on what if you're listen. If

39:17

you're listening to this, this week, don't worry. We're

39:19

gonna have coffee this Sunday. We got a cup set. We'll get

39:21

it. Yep. But, yeah, too many people of it.

39:23

Thanks, meant for coming on. Appreciate you.

39:25

Appreciate your family. Man,

39:28

your your whole family is so cool. I

39:30

love your I mean, all your kids.

39:32

I'm able to catch the the

39:34

end of them growing up. I think it's all, but I can

39:36

see them, like, graduating, getting

39:38

married, and all this cool stuff in a great couple

39:40

of years. Yeah. Really, really

39:42

cool. Appreciate you guys. Yeah. And for

39:44

anybody else, else who is interested, be sure,

39:47

and visit their website. I'll have links in

39:49

the show notes, so you can just go if you don't

39:51

remember it's fine. Just hit the show notes. Go to redeem

39:53

or fill up. Nope. That's our church name. But

39:55

doctor Nndvotion, that's what we're called. Go to doctor nndvotion dot com, find

39:57

this particular episode. And, yeah,

40:00

we'll have all the links that you need

40:02

right there. If

40:04

you want to support the

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