0:41

Now. Just.

0:52

A And oh no. Hello

1:10

and welcome to Dopey the podcast on

1:12

drugs, addiction and dumb shit. My name

1:14

is Dave. I'm. Still sick.

1:17

And. This is a. Bonus.

1:20

Tribute episode to the Great

1:22

When Kramer who died yesterday.

1:25

We. Had him on the show em a

1:27

few years ago. He

1:29

was somebody that I always really admired.

1:31

He wrote a really really. Incredible.

1:34

Book. It. Was called the hard

1:36

Stuff. And. Loved it was a

1:38

memoir is amazing. I. Had the

1:40

opportunity to interview. Wayne.

1:43

Kramer back in the day when I

1:45

was still getting high on heroin. And.

1:48

I I never listened to the Mc Five, I

1:50

just love the logo and I love the idea

1:52

of it. They. Were. Kind

1:55

of the Prado. Type of what

1:57

punk was going to be. And.

1:59

i'm going to read eulogy from

2:02

the Detroit News. Wayne was a

2:04

hardcore Detroit guy and

2:07

he came up in the late 60s and

2:09

he was a radical political thinker and then

2:11

he was a really

2:14

top-notch heroin addict

2:16

and drug user and dealer.

2:19

Here I'm going to read

2:21

the Detroit News eulogy written

2:23

by Melody Batons and

2:26

they write, Wayne Kramer,

2:28

the co-founder of pioneering Detroit

2:31

rock band MC5 has died

2:33

at age 75. Considered

2:36

one of the greatest guitarists of all

2:38

time by Rolling Stone magazine, Kramer's

2:40

death was announced Friday afternoon on

2:42

his official social media channels. Kramer

2:45

died at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in Los

2:47

Angeles according to Jason Heath, a

2:50

close friend and executive

2:52

director of Kramer's nonprofit Jail

2:54

Guitar Doors. He said

2:56

the cause of death was pancreatic

2:58

cancer. Kramer co-founded the MC5

3:01

in Lincoln Park, Michigan in the 1960s.

3:03

The anti-establishment

3:05

counterculture band went on to be

3:07

considered one of the most influential

3:10

American rock and punk groups of

3:12

that era. MC5's 1969 debut album

3:17

Kick Out the Jams is recorded over

3:19

two nights at Detroit's Grand Ballroom. It's

3:21

considered to be a proto-punk staple and

3:23

was listed more than once in Rolling

3:25

Stone's list of 500 greatest albums of

3:27

all time. Kramer

3:30

was very active in recent years having toured

3:32

as the MC50 with Soundgarden's Kim

3:35

Sale and Matt Cameron and

3:37

Faith Nemours bassist Billy Gould and

3:40

Zen Gorilla singer Marcus Durant. In

3:42

2022 Kramer announced the formation of

3:44

We Are All MC5, a touring

3:47

reanimation of the Trailblazing Band. often

3:52

called, oh Kramer also served as

3:55

an executive producer of Jail Guitar

3:57

Doors, a nonprofit organization that produces

4:00

provides musical instruments and

4:02

mentorship to incarcerated people. Kramer

4:04

was open about his own

4:06

jail time. He spent a

4:08

few years in federal prison in the 1970s on a

4:10

drug charge. Often

4:13

called Brother Wayne, Kramer frequently collaborated

4:15

with others, including his MC5 bandmates

4:19

after the group's early 1970s breakup. At

4:23

a 1992 memorial performance for late

4:25

vocalist Rob Tyner, Kramer reunited with

4:27

MC5 guitarist Fred Sonic Smith, bassist

4:30

Matt Michael Davis, and drummer Dennis

4:32

Thompson. Smith died in 1994 at

4:35

46. Davis

4:37

died in 2012 at 68. In

4:40

addition to the MC5 and subsequent

4:42

versions, Kramer had a fruitful

4:45

solo career with several releases in 2018.

4:48

He released his memoir, The Hard

4:50

Stuff, emotional tributes

4:53

underlining Kramer's influence and tenacity poured

4:55

in for musicians and music fans

4:57

immediately following the news of his

4:59

death. Brother Wayne Kramer

5:02

was the greatest man I've ever

5:04

known, wrote Rage Against the Machines'

5:06

Tom Morello in a lengthy Instagram

5:08

tribute. He possessed a one-of-a-kind mixture

5:11

of deep wisdom and profound compassion,

5:13

beautiful empathy, and tenacious conviction. His

5:16

band, the MC5, basically invented punk

5:18

rock music and was the only

5:20

act to not chicken out and

5:22

perform for the rioting protesters at

5:25

the 1968 Democratic National

5:27

Convention. Wayne had a

5:29

soft heart but was also Detroit tough

5:32

as nails. He was a true music

5:34

aficionado with an eclectic palette, a sense

5:36

of humor and wit to match, said

5:38

Detroit musician Paul Randolph, who recently recorded

5:41

with Kramer for the Alice Cooper album

5:43

Detroit Styles. Yeah, we had

5:45

the opportunity to talk to Wayne.

5:48

I got to talk to him twice,

5:50

once on heroin and once in recovery,

5:52

and I know that the recovery version

5:54

was better. Here it is. Rest

5:57

in peace, Wayne Kramer. But

6:03

here he is from Detroit by

6:06

way of Los Angeles from the

6:08

MC5 and a million other projects,

6:10

the writer of the hard stuff,

6:13

Wayne Kramer. Welcome to DOPY. Thanks,

6:16

happy to be here. It's a

6:18

miracle. So the year was 1999. It

6:21

was Bleecker Street. A

6:25

Canadian weird magazine called Popsmere.

6:28

Does that ring a bell?

6:30

Yes, I remember Popsmere. And you

6:32

were playing with the streetwalk and cheetahs.

6:35

And I was on drugs

6:38

and interviewing you and the

6:40

cavalcade of debauchery. And

6:43

I was out of my mind. I should look for

6:45

that footage. Do

6:47

you remember that show at all or no? Yeah,

6:50

I do remember the gig I

6:52

played in New York with the cheetahs. It was

6:55

a good one that I remember. Yeah,

6:57

I had great footage of you. Great footage

6:59

of you rocking out. And I'd

7:02

love to see that. Would you send it over? I

7:05

have it on VHS. I'm

7:07

like on the precipice of digitizing

7:09

all of that old shit. And

7:12

I promise you that when I do, I will send

7:14

you that footage, 100%. Thank

7:17

you. Probably like 10 seconds. But

7:19

whatever I have, I will totally share with

7:21

you. And Wayne Kramer

7:23

is a rock and

7:26

roll guitar playing icon out of

7:28

Detroit. And you started

7:30

the MC5 in like 1964, right? Something

7:35

like that, yeah. And you

7:37

were a pioneer. You were like the

7:39

pre-punk rock and roll, loud

7:42

rock and roll pioneer. How

7:46

important was drugs to the process in

7:48

the very beginning? Well, you

7:52

know, this is what the benefit of

7:54

hindsight and trying

7:56

to get a... a

8:00

larger perspective on it. You

8:03

know, we championed drug use,

8:07

although our drug use

8:09

was relatively benign. The

8:11

drugs we embraced were generally

8:14

marijuana, a little

8:16

bit of psychedelics, a

8:19

little bit of the, a

8:21

little bit of downers, but really

8:24

we were all sort of Arab

8:26

in those days. And

8:28

we kind of were snobs about

8:30

it because we felt like, well,

8:33

our parents drank, went to the bar

8:35

and acted like fools and got into

8:38

a fist fight, and we

8:40

sat around smoking weed, listening to people

8:42

laughing our ass off at the world

8:44

around us. So,

8:48

you know, even though

8:50

we championed drug use, marijuana

8:54

use, that comes off

8:56

a little odd knowing

8:59

what we know today

9:02

about drug use. Totally,

9:04

totally. It's not what we refer

9:06

to as drug use today. Well,

9:09

that's another thing about, I just finished

9:11

Wayne's book. It's amazing. It's called The Hard

9:13

Stuff, and it is an incredible

9:16

journey of debauchery, redemption, and

9:19

the people along the way

9:21

and the situations you got

9:23

into. I couldn't even

9:26

believe it, really. The

9:28

first, like, because we always called them dopey stories,

9:30

you know, when we started making the show and

9:32

they were just like war stories. We were going

9:34

to call the show war stories, but it turned

9:36

out there was a show called war stories about

9:38

actual war. So we just called it dopey. The

9:43

first story that really blew my head

9:45

was the way you got out of

9:48

the draft via

9:51

meth. You want to tell that one? Yeah,

9:56

you know, it was underground

9:59

communication. channel amongst

10:01

all young men, because

10:04

everyone was subject to conscription

10:07

in those days. The

10:09

government would order you into the

10:12

Army. You didn't have a

10:14

choice. And I

10:17

could not justify serving

10:19

in an Army that

10:21

was murdering

10:25

Vietnamese, murdering

10:27

Americans with

10:30

no justifiable

10:33

reason. The

10:36

Communists weren't coming through the Windsor

10:39

Tunnel from Canada to attack the

10:41

troops. And

10:43

all I could figure is this must have something

10:46

to do with this World War II, World

10:51

War idea of the

10:54

Communist boogeyman coming for

10:57

us, the communists are

10:59

hiding under your bed. Or

11:03

it had something to do with shell oil.

11:05

I knew that they had oil refineries in

11:08

the Gulf of Tonkin. And

11:10

the American military was out there protecting

11:12

the oil. And

11:14

neither of which was a compelling

11:18

enough reason to join the Army

11:20

and participate in

11:22

this illegal, undeclared

11:25

war. And

11:29

certainly an immoral and

11:31

unethical war. So

11:34

I decided that I would resist

11:37

them. And

11:39

the best way to resist them that

11:42

I learned about from my fellows,

11:45

guys in the neighborhood, other musicians,

11:48

was to

11:52

go in there and be yourself.

11:55

Or maybe be a more extreme

11:57

version of yourself. So,

12:01

I decided that I would

12:03

get prepared by staying up

12:05

on methadrine for 10 days

12:08

before the physical. So,

12:10

by the time I walked into

12:12

the report one induction, I

12:15

was certifiably psychotic. You

12:18

know, methadrine after a couple days will do

12:20

that to you. And after 10 days, I

12:23

mean, I couldn't see. I was

12:25

hallucinating so badly. And

12:28

I just didn't fit into the

12:31

army program. I just... You

12:33

think? I didn't resist

12:36

them, but I just

12:39

didn't fit. And

12:42

they determined that I was

12:44

unacceptable by current standards and

12:48

declared me one-watt.

12:51

The other thing that I think is obviously

12:53

very important, if anyone is a fan

12:55

of the MC5, you know,

12:57

the music is all about freedom,

12:59

but there's also a really important

13:01

social justice component. Now, did the

13:03

sound and the style come first,

13:05

or did the ideology come first?

13:09

It's impossible to separate. As

13:13

one evolved, the other evolved,

13:15

because we were... I

13:18

am, and people of my

13:20

age now, we're all part

13:22

of a generation that

13:24

was in an unspoken

13:27

agreement that the

13:29

direction the country was going

13:32

in was wrong, and

13:34

we needed to do something about it,

13:37

that our parents' generation

13:39

seemed to be blowing

13:42

it, and blowing it so

13:44

bad that they could turn

13:46

the planet into a cinder

13:49

floating around in space. And

13:53

we just thought we had some

13:56

better ideas. And

13:58

you did, and you guys were... instrumental

14:00

in the starting of the White Panther

14:02

Party, which I think is a very

14:05

timely kind of conversation, considering the Black

14:07

Lives Matter movement and everything that's gone

14:09

on this year. How

14:12

a part of the current social

14:14

justice movement are you? Well,

14:19

my work mostly

14:22

involves social

14:26

justice and criminal justice. Like

14:28

the jail guitar doors thing.

14:31

I'm sorry, go ahead. The jail guitar doors.

14:34

Yeah. Which is amazing. Just

14:36

over 11 years ago, 12 years

14:38

ago, my

14:41

wife, Margaret Kramer, Billy

14:43

Bragg, and I founded jail

14:46

guitar doors USA as

14:49

a 501c3 nonprofit

14:52

that works

14:55

for more just America. That

14:58

hyper incarceration has

15:01

proven to be a

15:03

national embarrassment and

15:08

international scandal. We

15:12

have 5% of the

15:14

world's population and 25% of the

15:16

world's prisoners. Having

15:20

served time in America's prisons,

15:23

I knew how bad it could get, and

15:26

I knew that something had to be

15:28

done. I

15:31

figured out what it was I could do,

15:33

and what I could do is try to

15:36

build an organization that would

15:38

mitigate the damage. We

15:42

have destroyed whole communities. We've

15:44

destroyed families and millions

15:47

of lives in the process

15:50

of fulfilling

15:53

politicians' dreams

15:55

of gaining office by

15:58

being perceived

16:00

as tough on crime. So

16:04

what we do is we use the arts,

16:06

the power, the transformative

16:08

power of music to

16:11

help people change for the

16:13

better while they're incarcerated. If

16:17

we don't help people change for

16:19

the better while they're locked up, the

16:22

prison experience itself will make

16:25

them worse. Totally.

16:28

So the chance for them to be

16:30

able to express themselves, be creative, have

16:32

something positive while they're locked up, they

16:34

have a better chance of being a

16:37

little bit rehabilitated or with a better

16:39

soul, mindset, whatever, worldview when they got

16:41

out because they had something positive while

16:43

they were inside. Yeah.

16:47

And through this process, they learn

16:49

skills that they'll need when they

16:51

return to the community.

16:55

For example, how to collaborate with

16:57

people that you might not necessarily

16:59

hang out with or that

17:02

you even like. You

17:04

know, guys on the prison yard, there's

17:06

a lot of animosity and a

17:08

lot of resentment and it's

17:11

very tribal. And

17:13

in our workshops, we tell our

17:16

people that you

17:19

have to leave all that out on the yard.

17:22

But in our workshops, we're all

17:24

artists and we can

17:26

talk about anybody and anything, but

17:28

we must treat each other with

17:30

dignity and respect. And

17:33

we can all just

17:35

be human beings, which

17:38

is what people in prison actually are. Absolutely.

17:41

Just like us. It's

17:43

amazing though, and one of the craziest

17:45

parts about your story, because obviously in

17:48

your book, one of my favorite parts is

17:50

the jail story, but I don't want to

17:52

jump ahead because the audience is going to

17:54

be like, what the fuck? This was a

17:56

revolutionary guitar player. How did a revolutionary guitar

17:58

player wind up in prison? But the

18:00

real interesting thing to me is when

18:02

we put together Art

18:08

Social justice and substance

18:10

abuse like when those things

18:12

happen together Like is

18:15

it a it's a weird brew right? It's hard

18:17

to I mean like how do you

18:19

put those things together? Cuz you know that I mean

18:22

musicians obviously love getting high Social

18:26

justice where everybody loves getting high, but

18:28

when addiction sets in it turns

18:31

on itself, right? It becomes difficult

18:33

to be really really Pronounced

18:35

as a social justice advocate if you're

18:37

getting too high, right? Well,

18:40

you can't do much of anything if you're getting too

18:43

high. That's what I'm trying to say You

18:45

can't be a husband. You can't be a

18:48

father. You can't be a partner or a

18:50

bandmate You know If

18:54

you're doing if you're getting high, then

18:56

that's what you do and

18:59

talk about like Kind

19:02

of like the the middle and the

19:04

ending of the MC5 were addiction kind

19:06

of You

19:08

know it kind of undid every because you

19:11

put everything together you put it in place

19:13

It was your vision and it

19:15

was pretty much your Addiction

19:17

that that took it out Well,

19:20

no, I had some help with

19:22

that. That's true Well

19:27

the MC5, you know all

19:29

rock bands are almost all

19:31

rock bands have a lifecycle

19:35

like everything in nature. It's

19:37

it's conceived

19:39

and it's birthed and

19:42

it's nurtured and it

19:44

grows and it flourishes

19:46

and flowers and then

19:48

bears fruit and then it

19:50

ages and It

19:53

withers and it dies That's

19:55

the same with rock bands. They all

19:58

go through that lifecycle But

20:01

most rock bands, you know, their

20:04

challenges are internal,

20:07

you know, relationships that

20:09

sour over time.

20:13

And

20:17

they're worried about business, you

20:19

know, like is the band viable? Can

20:21

we make a living being in this

20:24

band? The

20:26

MC5 had all those pressures.

20:28

Plus, we had the pressure

20:30

of our political stance,

20:32

which generated an enormous

20:35

amount of attention from

20:37

the FBI

20:39

and the local police. So

20:43

we were, you know, fighting

20:45

with both hands tied behind our

20:47

back, you know, tied

20:49

up in court, harassed by

20:53

the Detroit Police Department and the

20:55

Michigan State Police and the Federal

20:58

Bureau of Investigation. So

21:02

when your life all of a

21:04

sudden, you wake up one day

21:06

and you realize you're surrounded

21:09

by chaos and pressure

21:12

and negativity, getting

21:16

high becomes the

21:18

solution. Getting

21:21

high wasn't my problem. It was

21:23

my solution because all of

21:25

those problems went away when I got

21:27

loaded. I got a break. I

21:31

could relax. I could chill

21:33

out because I'm high. And

21:36

unfortunately, that solution brings a

21:39

whole other set of problems

21:41

with it. And

21:44

in the case of the MC5, like

21:46

many other rock bands, when

21:50

alcoholism and active,

21:53

in our case, opiate abuse

21:55

entered the picture, then

21:57

everything else is loaded. less

22:01

priority that drops down on

22:04

the list of things that matter. And

22:07

pretty soon while you're doing it, getting

22:09

through the gig so you can get the money

22:11

to go cop and get loaded. Totally.

22:15

And it's, this is a

22:17

well trod trail, you know, this

22:20

is nothing new for anybody that's

22:22

going down this road. Let

22:25

me ask you this. It's like a

22:27

band like the Stooges didn't have to

22:29

carry the weight of being political. They

22:31

could just be out there,

22:33

rock and roll people. Do you think the

22:35

political weight kind of like impeded the success

22:37

at all? Because you couldn't just be this

22:40

band, you know, this band of junkies,

22:42

this band of rockers. You had the

22:44

political component. Do you think it

22:47

hurt at all? I

22:49

don't think so because you can't, like

22:51

I said before, you can't separate it.

22:53

You know, that's who we were. That

22:56

was the, we took

22:58

a militant stance. We

23:01

embraced our

23:03

colleagues and our partners around

23:05

the country and around the

23:07

world that were all fighting

23:09

to change things. You

23:12

know, we, we didn't, that wasn't

23:14

an add on later. I understand.

23:16

I get it. That was a

23:18

core belief. When I stood up on

23:20

the stage and put my hand up in

23:23

the air in the peace

23:25

sign or the power to

23:27

the people fist and the kids

23:30

threw that back at me, we

23:32

were making a powerful connection because

23:35

we were addressing

23:37

their concerns directly. I

23:41

never tried to convince someone that I was

23:43

a blues

23:45

master and I studied Elmore James and

23:48

now I'm going to play the blues

23:50

for you. You know, I had other

23:52

things I was concerned with. Now

23:54

I get it. I get it. And

23:56

once it's all done, you guys were an

23:59

inspiration to people. people who might not

24:01

have ever heard about any kind of progressive

24:03

message. So, I mean, it's all it's all

24:05

amazing work you got to do. When was

24:08

the first time you tried

24:10

an opiate? I

24:13

think we were just starting to

24:15

write our third album.

24:17

So it must have been about 1970,

24:24

1971 maybe I had been reading

24:26

about dope fiend

24:28

jazz musicians and, you

24:31

know, I referred to William

24:33

Burroughs as Uncle Bill. And,

24:36

you know, I'd read junkie and

24:38

and all those what

24:42

was my man's name? Guy

24:44

that wrote Pimp. I can't think

24:46

of it. I used to

24:49

get his books at the parole office. Who

24:51

was it? It'll

24:54

come to me in a minute. Anyway, you

24:56

know, I was really intrigued with it and

24:59

one of the other guys in the MC5

25:01

was using and he was

25:03

a little older than me and he'd been

25:05

around the block a couple more times than

25:07

I had. And he knew

25:09

about heroin. And so one day I

25:12

said, hey, next time you go get

25:14

me a bag. You know, and he did. And

25:16

I took it home and snorted

25:18

it up and turned the

25:20

lights down low and listened to John

25:22

Lee Hooker because I thought that's what

25:24

you're supposed to do. And you do

25:26

heroin. Well, that works right. It's iceberg

25:28

slim that wrote Pimp. That's

25:31

iceberg slim. And

25:33

that's that junkie dream, right? Donald Goins.

25:36

Donald Goins. Yeah, that's

25:38

him. Yeah. Yeah. That's

25:42

that junkie dream. Right. You have and one and

25:44

you're a guitar player. And I don't think you're

25:46

off the mark thinking that you should listen to

25:48

John Lee Hooker the first time you snore dope.

25:50

I think that I think that makes sense. You

25:52

know, I think that's not a bad choice for

25:54

the first time you snore dope. How

25:57

long did it take before it became some?

26:00

thing that you were like, oh, well, maybe I

26:02

like this too much kind of thing. Well,

26:05

you know, I went along like, you

26:07

know, get high on Friday night, cause

26:09

it's the weekend and then, you

26:12

know, get high on Friday

26:14

and Saturday. Then get

26:16

high on Tuesday or

26:18

get high on Wednesday. It's the first Friday

26:21

and then I'm awake.

26:23

Let's get high. And,

26:26

and, uh, and I knew

26:28

pretty quickly that, um, that

26:31

this was completely out of control. I

26:33

mean, once you first, um,

26:36

start to go through withdrawal sickness,

26:39

you realize you've got yourself into

26:41

a mess and

26:43

there's, you know, in the

26:45

beginning, when you don't know what getting sick

26:47

is, it scares you

26:49

to death because you don't know

26:51

how far this is going to go.

26:54

You know, okay, your legs are cramping

26:57

and you're puking and you have

26:59

diarrhea and you're all sweaty and

27:01

you, you know, you're just as

27:03

miserable. You can't sleep and you

27:05

can't sit still and you

27:08

don't know if that's going to get worse. So

27:10

you're pretty motivated to go get another

27:13

bag and, or, you know, figure out

27:15

something you can steal or sell. And

27:18

of course I went through everything, all

27:20

my clothes, my guitars, my amps, my

27:23

cars, I sold everything. Everything

27:25

went in a little hole in Wayne's arm. What

27:28

was the first time you injected it? You

27:31

know, it wasn't for a few

27:33

years because I had the kind of,

27:36

uh, adolescent fear of hypodermic. So

27:39

I was, my first habit was about

27:41

two years long and I just snorted.

27:43

I was a tutor. We

27:45

said that benign term,

27:47

you know, you

27:49

know, but, uh, it,

27:51

I tell you what, what turned me

27:54

out was, um, another

27:56

musician friend brought over a bag of

27:58

Coke, Wayne. and said, try

28:00

this. And I said, yeah, well, give me a straw.

28:02

And he said, no, no, do this. And he gave

28:04

me a syringe. So I

28:06

banged a cocaine and

28:09

realized that, wow, this is

28:11

great. You know, and from

28:13

then on there, that was the delivery

28:15

system for whatever I was getting

28:17

high on. Right. It all changed once

28:19

you shot the first Coke you shot. Yeah.

28:23

I shot a little bit of Coke. The guy

28:25

who died, my friend who died lived to shoot

28:27

Coke. That was like his favorite thing. Um,

28:30

how instrumental do you think the

28:33

opiate, the opiates were with the demise

28:35

of the band? I, I'd get,

28:37

I'd bring it pretty high as, as,

28:39

as one of the elements. I mean,

28:42

because it undermines anything good

28:44

that you have going on. So

28:46

one of the guys in the band was good

28:49

at, was better at math. So he was supposed

28:51

to take care of the money and

28:54

yet he was inventing the

28:56

paper is drugs and, and,

28:59

you know, you can't do anything. Cause

29:02

you have to go cop first. Like you can't

29:04

go to rehearsal cause you got to go cop.

29:07

And I can't sit down and try to write

29:09

a new song. We got to go cop. Cause

29:12

I can't do anything unless not unless I

29:14

get straight. And, uh,

29:16

and I wasn't the only one, uh,

29:18

uh, you know,

29:20

there were, there were other fellows in

29:23

the band that were using to

29:25

the degree I was and more. And

29:28

of course, you know, when

29:31

you're high, nothing comes

29:33

in, no new information comes

29:35

into your brain. So

29:38

for an artist to have nothing

29:40

new coming in, then

29:42

no new art can come out. Right.

29:46

Absolutely. I think that's really an interesting

29:48

point because you can't do anything when

29:50

there's nothing coming in. It's like, it's

29:52

just like any other engine. You need

29:54

input to create action or

29:56

motion or product or anything. I

29:59

get that. And I have to

30:01

say when I'm reading the book

30:03

and the MC5 ended in the first

30:06

chunk I was like what the

30:08

hell is gonna happen now, and

30:10

that's when all hell breaks loose I

30:12

was like holy shit I

30:14

couldn't believe because like when I interviewed you

30:16

in 1999 and

30:18

I'm on heroin and maybe you're clean like

30:20

the irony is thick in my mind like

30:22

that you were this person I didn't know

30:24

I was this person and I didn't know

30:26

how bad it was gonna get for me

30:28

because I didn't get clean Until you know

30:30

five years ago. I was I was probably

30:34

23 or 25 when we met you know I was 25 when we met in

30:36

1999 now I'm

30:40

46 and I have almost I

30:42

have five and a half years clean now Anyway,

30:45

that's not the point the point is what

30:47

happened with you is where that's where it

30:49

gets really crazy That's

30:51

when like social justice rock

30:53

and roll everything takes a backseat

30:56

to your drug habit And

30:59

do you remember it happening gradually or

31:01

was it just bang? What's

31:04

gradual? I mean you know you heard

31:07

the expression. It's a long walk into

31:09

the woods long walk back out

31:11

of the woods and you know

31:13

it's it's Repeating

31:16

certain negative behaviors a

31:19

little here a little there just

31:21

a little more here a little more than you

31:24

know and You

31:26

know one day you wake up and you're

31:29

surrounded by scumbags and

31:31

low riders and hustlers

31:33

and liars and thieves and

31:35

cutthroats and backstabbers

31:38

and murderers and

31:41

You know you see what happened to my life

31:45

I used to be surrounded by people that love me

31:47

and all I had to do is write some songs

31:49

and play the guitar and and Dance

31:51

around on stage and here.

31:53

I am you know in a basement Some

31:56

you know on the east side of Detroit,

31:58

and you know these guys all got guns

32:00

and they're talking about robbing people and shooting

32:03

them and you know. So

32:07

basically once you're getting high,

32:09

you put the guitar down and everything

32:11

else kind of changes while you're figuring

32:14

out how to score basically.

32:16

And then you realize you haven't picked it up in a

32:18

while. Well, I never

32:20

put it down, but you know, it

32:22

was always there and I was always

32:24

trying to do something, but my efforts

32:26

were always undermined by, you know,

32:29

my priorities. I had another job

32:31

that was more important and

32:34

that was to continue

32:36

to abuse opiates

32:39

and alcohol. Right.

32:43

And that's when the crime started

32:46

kicking in, right? And

32:48

that's when you're in

32:51

Michigan and the burglaries

32:53

begin, right? Which is

32:55

crazy. And I

32:57

obviously, I'm not judging you in a,

32:59

for a second. I've done terrible things

33:02

and lots of the audience have

33:04

done terrible things. Um, do

33:06

you remember that period? Well, were you, were you too

33:08

high to recall it? Like what was the first job

33:10

and how did it happen? I

33:14

remember it well because, you know,

33:17

I was a childhood thief. I

33:20

started stealing when I was a little boy,

33:22

probably. Seven,

33:25

eight years old, maybe nine. I just, I

33:27

thought, you know, I had a lot of time

33:29

on my mother worked. I was being

33:31

raised by a single working mom. So she's at work

33:33

all day and I run the streets. Then

33:38

I find that I can steal

33:40

little items from neighborhood merchants, you

33:43

know, the

33:46

cred knees department store, and I could

33:48

go steal toys and candy. And I'd

33:50

steal money from my mother. And

33:52

so I had this magical thinking

33:55

already in me.

34:00

that somehow I could get

34:04

away with it. And

34:06

there would be no consequences to my

34:08

stealing. So when I was

34:10

an adult and with a habit

34:13

of support, I

34:17

met a guy, I knew that he was a

34:19

thief. Everyone knew that that's

34:21

what he did on the side. He was

34:23

a musician. And

34:26

one day he saw me struggling. He

34:28

said, hey man, if you want to make

34:30

some money, you could come to

34:32

work with me. And I knew

34:34

exactly what he meant and I agreed

34:37

to do it. And so

34:39

we started breaking into people's houses

34:41

and stealing their stuff. It's

34:45

really a heinous activity. And

34:50

it really, really just

34:53

aberrant and really damaging.

34:58

It's foul. I mean, if

35:00

you've ever been robbed, the

35:02

feeling, it just cuts right to

35:05

your heart, that

35:07

someone came in your home and

35:10

they went through your stuff and they took

35:12

things that belonged to you that didn't

35:14

belong to them. I mean, it's really, that's

35:18

what I should have gone to prison

35:20

for, not for dealing cocaine. Right,

35:23

right. My customers for

35:25

the cocaine all enjoyed the cocaine.

35:28

But I should have gone to prison for

35:30

the home invasions. Terrifying.

35:33

And nobody was ever home when you went in

35:35

though. No. Thank God.

35:37

Oh my God. And then, yeah,

35:39

so you start dealing coke and

35:42

then you get busted in

35:44

a classic, like Goodfellas-esque serious

35:46

bust. And I

35:49

mean, like for my money, like

35:51

for whatever reason, when you

35:53

went to prison and they

35:56

transferred you to that junky hall

35:58

of fame facility in Lexington. Kentucky.

36:01

I had read about that facility, I

36:03

think, in Burroughs books and

36:05

in other books. Like, that's a famous

36:07

place for the cure, they called it,

36:09

right? Like, junkies would go there for

36:11

the cure in the beginning of the

36:13

20th century. But

36:15

I couldn't believe it when when

36:18

Red Rodney shows up in the book. Like,

36:20

that just, like, blew me away, you know?

36:23

Like, what an amazing turn of events. Talk

36:25

about, like, what was it like in Lexington,

36:27

first of all, and did they try to

36:29

treat your drug addiction? Because I think I

36:31

remember reading that you were using in there

36:34

anyways. It must not be that effective of

36:36

a place for the cure. Well,

36:38

yeah, I did get I did get hired

36:40

a few times in there. Listen, you got

36:43

a whole little city

36:46

full of drug addicts, they're gonna find a

36:48

way to get drugs. I mean, I saw

36:50

a guy, I know a guy

36:52

in my housing unit that dealt in there.

36:55

And I saw him count out, we

36:57

used to be able to have quarters, because

36:59

we had soda machines

37:02

and fruit machines. And

37:05

you could have $4 and quarters

37:07

a week to buy stuff

37:09

from the machines. This guy counted

37:11

out $700 and quarters

37:13

on his bunk every day.

37:15

Oh, my God. And

37:18

he would he would tear he would get

37:23

it chimneys through the mafia

37:25

guys. And then, you know,

37:27

if through the visiting room, he

37:30

would send the money out and get his next

37:32

shipment of dope in every day. So

37:37

did you do a bunch of heroin in prison too? Because

37:39

I remember you smoked a bunch of weed in prison. Did

37:41

you do? We smoke weed every day. But, you know, I

37:44

probably got high four

37:46

or five times in the almost three

37:48

years that was there. So

37:51

you didn't have to maintain a habit when you were in

37:53

that prison. Well, I

37:55

couldn't. I mean, you know, I

37:58

didn't have the resources for that. I

38:00

knew guys in there that

38:02

did have habits in the penitentiary.

38:04

They got a fucking habit. I

38:09

thought it was incredible. And

38:11

how did they keep it up just with whatever they had

38:13

to do? Right. Well, they, a

38:15

couple of them, they were on, um,

38:17

work release or study release so they

38:19

could go out during the day and

38:22

they had like their girlfriends and, you

38:24

know, their, their crew out there to

38:27

keep them alive. Now, correct

38:29

me if I'm wrong, cause I might be wrong in

38:32

my, my memory, which is

38:34

never great. Red Rodney replaced Miles

38:37

Davis and the Charlie Parker band. Is

38:39

that right? That is correct.

38:41

Okay. And, uh, I love all that

38:43

shit. I love all that history, which is probably one

38:45

of the reasons I was a heroin addict for so

38:47

long. Um, and, and not, I'm not

38:49

like a musician, like you're a musician, but I would

38:52

love to play, I found that when

38:54

I would play, I would, I

38:56

would play to catch a nod. Like a lot

38:58

of the time I would play when I would

39:00

use. And if I didn't have enough, if I

39:03

played more, I would find myself nodding just from

39:05

practicing. But you ever experienced that? Sure.

39:08

Okay. Um, now Red

39:10

Rodney shows up legendary

39:12

jazz trumpet player, legendary

39:15

junky. What was that?

39:17

What described the experience a little bit?

39:19

Well, in, you know, I

39:21

was in my mid

39:24

twenties then, you know, prison is

39:26

a, is a young man's name.

39:29

And, uh, red was in

39:31

his late fifties then.

39:34

And he had been, he had

39:36

come back to Lexington where he had

39:39

served time in

39:41

the forties and in

39:43

the fifties. And,

39:45

uh, he used to, he

39:47

used to walk around that place like he was

39:49

the mayor. He

39:52

said, I mean, I liked doing

39:54

business with established institutions. Right.

39:58

But he was. He

40:00

was kind of my idol, you know.

40:03

I mean, he was a dope fiend

40:05

jazz musician, just the kind of guy

40:07

that I always wanted to

40:10

grow up and be. And

40:13

here we were doing time, you know,

40:16

him back for his third

40:18

bit and me

40:20

on my first bit. And I

40:22

got to see that, you know, if I

40:25

don't change, I'll be here and

40:27

I'll be coming back to these

40:29

penitentiaries again and again. But

40:37

you know, it was a

40:39

rehabilitation facility.

40:42

They encouraged everybody to program.

40:44

They made a lot of

40:47

programs available. But the

40:49

state of the art of recovery was

40:51

nowhere near where it

40:53

is today. It

40:56

was woefully inadequate. We

40:58

didn't even have 12 snups at

41:01

Lexington. We had, you

41:04

know, group therapy and

41:06

rational behavior training and

41:08

positive mental attitude. Right.

41:12

And you know, a bunch of kind of

41:14

lightweight talking,

41:16

pure ideas. I

41:19

think the most effective modality

41:22

that we had was

41:24

transactional analysis. TA.

41:28

I know I'm okay. You're okay.

41:31

How does that work? I don't even know how that works. Well,

41:34

it has to do with ego states

41:36

and each of us carry around an

41:38

adult, a parent and a

41:42

child inside us. And

41:45

if I come out of my kid to

41:48

your parent, it's not

41:50

going to work. Or if I come out of

41:52

my parent to your kid, it isn't going to

41:54

work. It only works if we come out adult

41:56

to adult. I get it.

41:59

That makes sense. It sounds to me also

42:01

like your experience with red in prison like

42:03

one of my favorite parts is where he

42:05

tests you to see if You can play

42:07

and like and then you could play changes

42:09

fast enough for him to be like, okay,

42:12

we can be friends I love that But

42:15

it reminds me Exactly what

42:18

happened he put the Jazz fake

42:20

book in front of me and said can you

42:22

read these chords and I said I think so

42:24

and he said okay We're gonna play

42:26

this one one two one

42:28

two three and he started playing the melody on a

42:31

little bit and I Struggled with

42:33

the changes Cuz

42:35

you know I'm Bob in standards.

42:37

Sometimes you get four chords per

42:39

bar It's fast fast

42:41

and furious. I'm impressed that you kept up

42:44

and he's like, what the fuck am I

42:46

gonna do? I'm in jail. This guy's better

42:48

than nothing He's easy. He's he was psyched

42:50

that you could keep up and I yeah,

42:52

and I think that's a very beautiful thing

42:54

in itself But it also reminds me of

42:56

like like the roots of the jail

42:59

Jail guitar doors thing that you guys

43:02

are using music to do the time

43:05

You know what? I mean? You're you're playing gigs You

43:07

were practicing and you're you got

43:09

to work on your craft and

43:12

it probably made you a much better guitar player.

43:14

I Went into

43:16

prison and fairly adventurous You

43:20

know rock Player

43:23

and I think I came out a

43:25

competent musician I

43:28

could improvise through changes I

43:31

I knew some of the the

43:33

repertoire, you know the great American songbook

43:36

I know some of the songs that

43:38

we played and You

43:40

know read taught me a number

43:43

of songs and so

43:45

I felt like you know I actually

43:47

understand a little bit about music theory

43:50

at this point and

43:52

and my reading improved radically. So

43:55

Yeah, I mean listen studying

43:57

with a musician of

44:00

the caliber of Red Rodney was

44:02

the chance of a lunchtime. I

44:05

mean, you know, he brought, when

44:08

he played, I didn't

44:10

hear melodies and

44:13

chords. I smelled

44:15

fried chicken. Right. You

44:18

know, I mean, I heard

44:21

Louis Armstrong and I

44:23

heard 42nd Street and, you know,

44:26

just, there was, his playing was

44:28

so vivid and

44:32

compelling that, you know, I

44:34

had to like, often I had to

44:36

not listen to him because I'd get

44:38

too distracted. Right. It's

44:41

amazing because you were so lucky because in

44:43

a way you had this

44:45

ridiculous freedom under the

44:47

most lockdown situation you could have. Like,

44:50

it's like you couldn't make that kind

44:52

of thing up. You got incredibly lucky.

44:55

I mean, considering you're in jail because you

44:57

were dealing Coke and you're a heroin addict

44:59

and everything is fucked, you're playing with one

45:01

of the greatest and you're keeping up. And

45:03

it's, I hear you, when

45:05

you smell fried chicken from hearing

45:07

music, it's that soulful. You know,

45:09

that's where the soul music comes in

45:12

and the real experience. I

45:14

like hearing that. That's nice. And

45:16

then when you get out, it gets

45:19

to the next level of crazy, junky

45:21

musician shit, because I'll fast forward a

45:23

little, you land in New York City

45:26

and you wind up

45:28

hooking up with junky superstar fucking Johnny

45:30

Thunders, which I never knew about that.

45:32

Like, how did that happen? Yeah,

45:36

another one of my not so great

45:39

career moves. He

45:42

was a MC5 fan. And

45:45

he told me later that he was in

45:47

the front row at every gig the

45:49

MC5 played in New York. And

45:55

apparently I betted one of his girlfriends one night.

46:00

didn't know anything about him. But so,

46:04

you know, I first

46:06

got home, he came to the flight,

46:09

and through a mutual friend, invited

46:11

me down to sit in. And I

46:15

went down and played with them. And I thought they

46:18

were pretty sloppy. And you know, they

46:20

were kind of all over the map.

46:22

And the bickering of the stage between

46:24

him and Walter was really

46:26

distracting. But I saw

46:28

it as like, yeah,

46:31

give me a chance to play. I don't want

46:33

people to forget me. You know, I've been away

46:35

for a few years here. And so

46:38

I got up and we jammed. And then

46:40

he asked me to, if I wanted to

46:43

hang out. And I tried to avoid

46:45

it because I saw that, you know,

46:48

the world around him was all about

46:51

drugs. And I was I just come out

46:53

of prison, I was trying to, you know,

46:56

all I had was willpower. And that

46:58

lasted about three days. And

47:01

then I went up and hung out with

47:03

him and his drug dealer manager. And I

47:06

was off to the races. And

47:09

like, obviously, it's almost

47:11

the opposite of the fried chicken red

47:13

Rodney experience. You weren't smelling fried chicken

47:15

when when Johnny thunders was playing your

47:17

fries, smelling dope cooking in a spoon

47:19

when Johnny thunders was playing. Yeah,

47:23

yeah. And it, you know, it

47:25

was the same thing it, like

47:28

I described in the early days, the

47:30

MC five, you can't do anything because

47:32

you got to go cop first. And

47:35

it was the same with thunders. And finally, I

47:37

just said, Hey, if you're going get me to,

47:39

you know, right? And you're just

47:41

off and running. He it's so weird.

47:44

Like for me, like I'm not the biggest New

47:46

York Dolls fan. I love

47:48

I like the Johnny

47:51

thunders solo stuff. Like the

47:53

quiet stuff. Like I think that stuff

47:55

is pretty cool. Why

47:57

do you suppose he is this

48:00

larger than life character in the world

48:02

at this point? Is it because, like,

48:05

what do you attribute that to? Well,

48:08

it's a romantic image.

48:13

You know, he believed his

48:16

own mythology. These

48:18

are myths that we create

48:21

around careers and artists. And

48:24

he created this myth of the

48:26

junky guitar player. And he could

48:28

not separate himself from the myth. At

48:33

one point, I got myself into

48:36

a methadone program and I got him into a

48:38

methadone program. And

48:40

he lasted two days. He

48:43

liked being out in the street, ripping and

48:45

running. And, you know, I hated it. I

48:48

was so sick of it. And

48:50

methadone made perfect sense to me. But,

48:53

you know, at arm's length, it's a kind of tragic, romantic

48:58

image that he represented.

49:03

And people are drawn

49:05

to self-destructive art. And

49:08

I think that's a very

49:11

interesting thing. And I think that's

49:13

a very interesting thing. And people are

49:15

drawn to, you know, self-destructive

49:18

artists. And

49:22

it's kind of perverse, really. It's

49:24

aberrated. There's something

49:28

out of sync with it. But

49:30

clearly it appeals to

49:32

some people. Most

49:35

people, it doesn't appeal

49:37

to most people. And most people are

49:39

just not interested in it because

49:41

they're not interested in it. And I think it's

49:43

a very interesting thing. And I

49:45

think that's a very interesting thing. And

49:48

I think that's a very interesting thing. And,

49:51

you know, even in the rock world, I

49:54

don't think there's a great many, if

49:57

you did a cross-section of contemporary musicians,

50:00

because Keith Richards was his archetype,

50:02

right? That was his, his dream.

50:04

And I'm sure, and when you

50:06

read about Keith, for some reason,

50:08

Keith never mainline. He always would

50:10

muscle all the dope. And I'm

50:12

sure Johnny Thunders would, would mainline

50:14

the dope, right? He wasn't muscling

50:16

the dope like Keith and Keith,

50:19

like, w w w did he mainline or did

50:21

he muscle it when he would shoot it? Johnny

50:23

Thunders? Well, he had no veins

50:26

left. Right. So it was

50:28

just a, just a

50:30

horrific, you

50:32

know, gross scene

50:35

to watch him digging around in his

50:37

arms and in his feet and in

50:39

his groin. And you know, he was

50:41

so sick, he had boils all over

50:43

him. And, you know, he

50:45

was in terrible health when I met him. And

50:48

it only got worse as time went

50:50

on. We were only together for eight

50:53

or 10 months, I think. And, and, and

50:57

it just, you know, I couldn't bear it anymore. I

50:59

had to, I had to step away. But yeah,

51:04

he, you know, he had no veins left. I mean, he

51:06

never, I am just is dope.

51:08

And the thing about Keith, you

51:10

know, Keith has the best doctors in

51:12

the world. He gets pharmaceutical

51:15

drugs. And he,

51:17

you know, I don't think Keith does that

51:20

much of it. You know, even in

51:22

his peak, I think he was pretty

51:24

judicious about the amounts that he

51:26

would go. I mean, if you read his book, apparently

51:29

he would stay up on

51:31

days on cocaine, reorganizing his

51:34

cassettes. Totally,

51:37

totally. And it's, you

51:39

know, he could go to Switzerland and get

51:41

his drug, his, his blood changed. Which

51:44

he did. And you know, Johnny Thunder is

51:46

not getting anything changed. Poor Johnny Thunders. Oh

51:49

man. And that's, and that's interesting too. Just like

51:52

the difference between the reality and

51:54

the romance, the reality is boils

51:57

and shooting in your groin and

51:59

misty. and your feet

52:01

and misery and the romance

52:03

is some recording you hear one

52:05

time. You know what I mean? And he turned up

52:08

dead in New Orleans, and it

52:10

was a very sad, horrible end to him.

52:14

And around that time when you started

52:16

doing methadone, it seemed to me

52:18

from reading the book that that's where there

52:21

was some sort of idea that you could

52:24

maybe get out of it. Like you

52:26

started talking to people, like

52:30

professionals would explain what they had been through

52:32

and you were like, this is interesting. Was

52:34

that the beginning of thinking maybe there could

52:36

be an out? Yeah.

52:39

Yeah, during the 80s, I'd

52:42

already gone through

52:44

heroin for

52:47

a few years leading up to prison and

52:49

then coming out of

52:51

prison and moving to New York where

52:54

heroin was available

52:56

and high quality and cheap.

53:00

And I just, it's

53:03

such a degrading life that

53:08

I was forced to endure, you

53:10

know, that I put myself in

53:12

this situation. And at

53:14

a certain point, I just, I

53:18

said there's got to be a way out of

53:20

it. There's got to be

53:22

a way to live where

53:24

this isn't necessary. But

53:28

all I had was willpower and,

53:31

yeah, gotten to the methadone

53:33

program, which I

53:36

am still to this day

53:38

in favor of. I support

53:40

methadone maintenance. You know, there

53:42

are some among us who

53:46

aren't going to get sober. And

53:48

I would rather them go to the clinic

53:51

once a week and get their takeaways and

53:53

have a life than spend

53:56

it in the gutter, you know,

53:58

shooting dope, ripping and run and die

54:03

a horrible junky death,

54:05

you know, before your time. I

54:07

mean, you could say a junky

54:09

death is a natural death, but I

54:12

mean, there's another natural death that's

54:14

possible. Yeah,

54:17

and it was still decades

54:19

before I got sober.

54:22

You know, I

54:24

replaced my methadone habit

54:28

with the Wayne Kramer vodka

54:31

and prescription medicine habit.

54:34

Well, I... You treat me program. No,

54:37

I get it. I was on methadone for

54:39

years and years, and I never used it

54:41

responsibly. I always took as many pills as

54:43

I could when I got my dose, and

54:45

if I had money, I would shoot dope

54:47

before I'd get the methadone, and I would

54:49

do... And like, I agree

54:51

with you. I support whatever anybody can

54:53

do to make their life

54:56

as positive and happy as possible,

54:59

and if it's methadone in the proper way

55:01

or if it's methadone to lessen, you know,

55:03

the misery, I support

55:06

it. When you were on methadone, did you do it by

55:08

the book or were you using other stuff at the same

55:10

time? No, I

55:12

was a... I was a model

55:14

patient. Nice. You know, after

55:16

a few months, they... You

55:19

know, I made all my appointments. You know, I

55:21

loved going to the clinic. It reminded me of

55:23

prison. Where did you go? Where was the clinic

55:25

you went to? It was

55:28

at Beth Israel in Manhattan. Which one

55:30

on 20th Street and Third Avenue? Yep.

55:32

That shabby one on the corner. I went there for

55:35

a bit. I was a mess in that spot. That

55:37

place still looks exactly the same. It looks like 1978 on that

55:40

corner still. Yeah,

55:42

yeah, yeah. And

55:44

I met a great counselor there

55:47

who really helped me. I

55:49

mean, it was the first time I, you

55:51

know, I was able to talk to someone

55:54

that, you know, knew

55:56

what I knew. That had done what

55:58

I had done. put needles in their

56:01

arms, they had hurt

56:03

people and been hurt. And

56:05

so it

56:07

was helpful to meet an older man

56:10

and to talk to him about prison

56:12

and crime and

56:15

dope and

56:17

all the myriad 10,000

56:19

problems that we all endure. Yes.

56:23

And you could see that, and it was

56:25

the spark. I mean, like you said, it

56:27

took you decades to get from there to

56:29

sober, but it was the spark.

56:33

And one of the other really interesting things

56:35

I thought was that at that point in

56:37

your life, you're a world-class guitar player. Obviously,

56:40

you're a world-class addict, but it's at that

56:42

point that all these

56:44

sort of normal skills come into you. Like

56:46

you learn how to build things and build

56:48

houses and you travel the country. I

56:51

lived in Florida and did roofs.

56:53

I mean, the roofing in Brooklyn

56:55

sounded pretty tough, but house building

56:58

was pretty amazing. And like,

57:00

how did that impact your recovery

57:02

in general when you saw different

57:04

aspects to your own skill set?

57:07

Well, I think it was all a

57:10

building process. I mean,

57:13

some of the things I had to do were existential

57:18

crises. You

57:21

know, like, what am I doing here? I'm

57:24

an artist. I'm a musician. I

57:26

can play. I can write songs.

57:28

I can entertain people. What

57:31

am I doing standing in hot tower

57:35

with a mop on the roof

57:37

of a building in Brooklyn in the middle of

57:39

the winter? You know, I'm burning

57:41

up and I'm freezing at the same time.

57:46

But, you know, as I kind

57:49

of stumbled along and, you

57:51

know, found out that

57:54

I wouldn't do

57:56

any more, like I will never do

57:58

roofing again. But I

58:01

found out that I could do

58:03

things with my hands, and

58:05

I was good with a

58:07

plan and with tools. And

58:12

I found that I could support myself

58:14

outside of music. Because

58:17

music is a road of hope.

58:20

You might be in a hit band

58:22

and you've got gigs and money's flowing,

58:24

but that's going to go away. And

58:28

then you've got to find another gig. And

58:32

it's tough. And

58:34

so to start being a cabinet maker

58:37

where I just show up at the

58:39

wood shop every day and build nice

58:41

things for wealthy people. And

58:45

it helped me musically because now I

58:48

don't have to go suck up to

58:50

some club owner for a $500 gig.

58:55

And I can say, look, yeah, if you want to

58:57

hire me, it's $1,000. Or

59:00

I'm not interested. I don't need it. I don't

59:02

need the money. I have a job.

59:06

And I found it liberating. Also,

59:08

I think it's awesome that you were capable of

59:10

doing that. I don't think I

59:12

could build a house or a cabinet. And

59:15

I like just hearing the craftsmanship come out

59:18

of you because I could hear the pride.

59:20

And it kind of also reminded you of who you

59:23

were, the pride in your music at the same time.

59:26

And it's like when you're at your worst, you

59:28

forget who you are. You forget what

59:30

you're capable of. And it

59:32

was inspiring to me to read that stuff.

59:36

And when

59:38

you turn the corner, I mean, you had made

59:40

it to California. And

59:43

how did it happen? Because I know you

59:45

got involved in recovery while you were still

59:47

using, which I find to be very interesting.

59:51

Well, yeah, I was in a marriage

59:53

that was breaking up. And

59:57

I went to a drummer.

1:00:00

hired was sober. And

1:00:02

he told me about a meeting

1:00:04

called Artists Living in Recovery. And

1:00:07

so he said, you should go see it. It's

1:00:09

kind of interesting. So it was in my neighborhood

1:00:11

and I'd walk over to the meeting on Sunday

1:00:14

mornings. And I was

1:00:16

pretty blown away by what

1:00:18

I experienced. Because it was all

1:00:20

people in the arts dealing

1:00:23

with their recovery through

1:00:25

the 12-step recovery program.

1:00:28

And I met a musician. Actually,

1:00:30

I knew some people that are in.

1:00:33

I asked one of them if he knew a couple's

1:00:37

counselor. And he

1:00:39

recommended a woman. And me and my

1:00:41

wife at the time went to meet

1:00:45

with her. And she

1:00:47

talked to me for a while. And she asked

1:00:49

me if, you

1:00:51

know, how I was doing with drugs. And I

1:00:54

told her that I had it

1:00:56

all together. And I was, you know, I

1:00:58

was cool. And she said, oh,

1:01:01

really? I said, oh, yeah, you

1:01:03

know, I use if I want to use. I don't use

1:01:05

if I want to use. So recommended

1:01:07

I meet a friend of hers. And

1:01:12

I thought, right, you know, here's

1:01:14

another jailbird hustler. He found

1:01:17

a scam

1:01:19

out here to avoid going back to

1:01:21

prison. This

1:01:23

guy called me and he

1:01:26

wouldn't argue with me, which

1:01:29

threw me for a loop. And

1:01:31

he invited me to a meeting. And

1:01:33

I went to the meeting. And I

1:01:36

knew guys at the meeting, you know,

1:01:38

other musicians, like some guys who

1:01:40

were had started off with me

1:01:42

back in Detroit, who had

1:01:44

come to California and found Finkman

1:01:46

fortune. And they were members of

1:01:48

this meeting. It was an old men's stag.

1:01:52

And so I

1:01:55

started attending the meeting. And I had

1:01:57

been lying to everybody that I was

1:01:59

sober. Because I had moved

1:02:01

enough times to know that you only get

1:02:03

to be the new guy for a little

1:02:05

while. And so

1:02:07

don't blow it this time, Wayne. Don't

1:02:10

let anyone see you high in a club.

1:02:12

Don't let anyone see you drunk. So

1:02:16

I'm living this covert life. And

1:02:18

I go to the meeting and I tell everyone that

1:02:21

I just pulled a number out of

1:02:23

my ass. Oh, I've been sober six years.

1:02:25

Yeah, six years. Sounded like

1:02:27

a nice number. Sure. And I was

1:02:29

just bullshit and bullshit. Finally

1:02:32

one day, I really

1:02:34

developed some appreciation

1:02:37

for the men in the meeting. And

1:02:41

I started to feel disingenuous.

1:02:47

That I'm sitting in this meeting and

1:02:49

I'm taking up a chair and

1:02:51

I'm bullshitting to everybody. And

1:02:55

so I came clean and told them

1:02:57

that I was going to be the

1:02:59

only living person to retire from 12

1:03:02

steps. And

1:03:07

they responded appropriately. They

1:03:09

said, okay, that's go away.

1:03:11

If you want to come back,

1:03:13

come back anytime. Some

1:03:16

guys were bent out of shape and other

1:03:18

guys could care less what my

1:03:20

problem was. They had their own shit to talk

1:03:22

about. Not to mention that that's in the book.

1:03:24

They say go out and experiment and see how

1:03:27

it goes. That's in the book. And

1:03:30

that's what I did. And of course it went

1:03:32

very badly. Right. Well,

1:03:37

I came back to the meeting. I called

1:03:39

my friend and I said, listen, Bob, I'm

1:03:44

a sick man. I can

1:03:46

admit I'm a sick man. I need help. Can

1:03:50

you help me? And he

1:03:52

said, Wayne, we don't

1:03:54

shoot the wounded. And

1:03:58

he just cracked my heart open. with

1:04:01

that response. So

1:04:03

I went under his wing

1:04:06

and he became my sponsor

1:04:08

and he taught

1:04:10

me about the

1:04:12

principles to live by in 12 Steps

1:04:16

and it

1:04:19

changed my life. That's

1:04:21

Bob Timmons right? Or should I not say his name?

1:04:23

Should I delete his name? That's

1:04:25

his name, yeah. Am I allowed to say it or is

1:04:27

it shouldn't be said? It

1:04:29

should be said. He's a dearly

1:04:32

departed but he

1:04:34

was a great man. I mean,

1:04:36

you know, I decided to see

1:04:38

that he was a guy and

1:04:40

I knew lots of guys like Bob

1:04:42

Timmons that were bad

1:04:44

guys, that were violent guys, that

1:04:47

would hurt you and

1:04:49

not think about it. And you

1:04:51

know, I knew them in prison. I

1:04:54

knew them back in Detroit and

1:04:56

here he was and

1:04:58

I like to tell him

1:05:00

he was a little old man who

1:05:03

just helped guys. That's all he

1:05:05

did is help people. He was legendary.

1:05:07

He was a legendary figure around 12

1:05:09

Steps and around drug addicts and I

1:05:11

don't even remember where I heard of

1:05:14

him. I just know that I've heard

1:05:16

of his good deeds. Let me ask

1:05:18

you this because the MC5 was

1:05:22

like basically, you

1:05:24

know, if you trace back the history of music,

1:05:26

it was a huge point of diversion

1:05:29

in American rock and roll. Kind of

1:05:31

like the jump off point to punk

1:05:33

music, you know, through rock and roll.

1:05:35

The jump off point to metal through rock

1:05:38

and roll through big sounds and riffs and

1:05:41

bombastic, chaotic, but

1:05:43

very blues based rock and roll.

1:05:45

When you show up at these

1:05:47

meetings in LA with these, you

1:05:49

know, rock and roll guys, these

1:05:51

punks and you know, metal guys

1:05:53

and just rock guys who

1:05:55

know the history. Were they like

1:05:57

blown away? Because like you

1:05:59

are. are the, you know, kind

1:06:02

of like the originator, you know, they

1:06:04

know, right? Was it was it a thing?

1:06:08

It wasn't a thing because, you know,

1:06:10

in the rooms, we're all

1:06:13

the same. We're all addicts

1:06:16

and alcoholics, and we're all there

1:06:18

because something's wrong. And

1:06:20

we need to find out what it is, and

1:06:23

what can be done about it. That's

1:06:26

all that matters in in the

1:06:29

12 step meeting, you know, what

1:06:31

you do for your job. It's

1:06:33

not so important. You know, how

1:06:35

are you coping with life? That's

1:06:37

pretty important. And

1:06:40

how's it going? How are you coping with life? Oh,

1:06:43

you know, I, I don't have

1:06:45

any of that big ticket

1:06:48

drama that active

1:06:51

addicts and alcoholics share,

1:06:54

you know, I don't fight, I don't

1:06:56

box with people in bars, and,

1:06:59

and I don't have people that are looking for

1:07:01

me, and I'm not looking for anybody. And, you

1:07:04

know, my life is, you

1:07:07

know, pretty tame and, and, and,

1:07:10

and pretty positive. I,

1:07:15

I have a beautiful wife and a beautiful little

1:07:17

boy, and I have good

1:07:20

work that I do. But, you know,

1:07:22

my life isn't perfect. And,

1:07:24

and I don't do recovery perfectly.

1:07:27

I'm a human

1:07:29

being, I'm flawed. You

1:07:32

know, I'm imperfect. And

1:07:34

I will always be imperfect. You

1:07:38

know, I still struggle with, with depression

1:07:42

and anxiety. You

1:07:44

know, I use

1:07:46

all the tools that I that

1:07:48

are available to me. And

1:07:52

not yet, at this point in my, my life,

1:07:55

I have nothing to complain about. How

1:07:57

do you deal with it? Say

1:08:00

it again. I'm still

1:08:02

breathing in and out. Absolutely.

1:08:04

And I cannot thank

1:08:07

you enough for taking so much time with us. I

1:08:10

think your book is incredible. Your

1:08:13

music is incredible. Check out Wayne

1:08:15

Kramer and the MC5 all over

1:08:17

the place. And the book

1:08:19

is called The Hard Stuff. How do you deal

1:08:21

with the anxiety and depression? Well,

1:08:26

I tried antidepressants

1:08:28

for a long time. And

1:08:32

ultimately, they never, they

1:08:34

didn't work. I

1:08:37

have a great therapist that I've been with

1:08:39

for 15 years. And

1:08:42

so we talk about it. I'm

1:08:45

talking to another

1:08:47

doctor, a researcher now,

1:08:50

about psychedelic

1:08:53

therapies. They've

1:08:55

come a long way with psilocybin.

1:08:59

And I think that it might

1:09:02

allow me just a

1:09:04

slight reset. I'm

1:09:07

almost good. Every

1:09:11

now and then, it gets a hold of me. And

1:09:13

I just, I get down. And

1:09:19

so I try to use the

1:09:21

tools that are available, talk therapy.

1:09:24

And if

1:09:26

I can try this, the clinical

1:09:30

use of psilocybin, I'm willing to

1:09:33

try that. I

1:09:35

try to remember that it

1:09:39

doesn't attack

1:09:41

me every day all the time.

1:09:44

It's occasional. In

1:09:47

those occasional moments, I

1:09:49

can usually find something to do to treat

1:09:51

it in the day I'm in,

1:09:53

in the moment I'm in. But

1:09:55

sometimes I just got to suffer. Right,

1:09:58

right. We all suffer. But

1:10:00

did you ever read the letters between Bill

1:10:03

Wilson and Timothy Leary, where Bill

1:10:06

Wilson's like, I think AAs

1:10:08

would really benefit from LSD?

1:10:10

Did you ever read those letters? I

1:10:13

have not read the letters, but I'm well

1:10:15

aware of his interest in it and his

1:10:17

experiments with it after he retired

1:10:19

from AA. And

1:10:23

I think he might have been on to

1:10:25

something. He had

1:10:27

his spiritual breakthrough,

1:10:30

his blinding white light

1:10:32

spiritual moment on Belladonna,

1:10:36

which is a psychedelic. Right, right.

1:10:38

That's interesting. I thought

1:10:40

this story that you told, because when

1:10:42

you're on a flight and the stewardess

1:10:44

is like annoyed that you're so

1:10:46

fucked up and you're like, oh, that can't be

1:10:48

me. That's got to be this

1:10:51

guy that's making you crazy. I

1:10:54

felt like your end of your run,

1:10:56

I found very similar to the end

1:10:58

of my run, where I was just

1:11:00

like, I cannot believe this is me

1:11:03

at this point. It's

1:11:07

not a Belladonna fucking microdose

1:11:09

psilocybin ayahuasca thing, but it's

1:11:12

something. You know what I'm

1:11:14

saying? It's something. It's

1:11:17

that moment of change and clarity. Do

1:11:19

you ever consider this ayahuasca business or

1:11:21

no way? No,

1:11:24

I got to stick with the clinical

1:11:27

application. I have

1:11:29

friends that have gone

1:11:31

to South America and taken

1:11:33

ayahuasca and they swear by

1:11:35

it, but I have

1:11:37

to do things by the

1:11:39

book, really. Totally. I'm

1:11:42

going to stay married. Wow, that

1:11:44

sounds smart. That sounds very smart. Now,

1:11:46

as a lead

1:11:49

of the 60s

1:11:51

psychedelic revolution, how

1:11:54

much of it is some old school

1:11:56

feeling of longing, the fact that it

1:11:58

can be a clinical trial of

1:12:00

a micro dose of psilocybin. How much

1:12:02

does it scratch that old itch of

1:12:05

like being this psychedelic warrior? I

1:12:09

don't know. I don't know.

1:12:11

I asked me after I, if I get

1:12:13

it, I'll fill

1:12:15

the end later. Perfect. Wayne, thank you

1:12:17

so much for your time. You were

1:12:19

incredibly generous. I think you're

1:12:22

a legend of rock and roll and

1:12:24

sobriety. So thank you. You're

1:12:26

so welcome. I'm happy to be able to

1:12:28

talk about a lot of this stuff at

1:12:32

the depth that we've gone because,

1:12:34

you know, often in lock

1:12:37

and roll interviews, it's, you

1:12:41

know, we don't go this deep. Well,

1:12:44

good deal. Good deal. So let's do

1:12:46

a follow up after the clinical trials

1:12:48

of psilocybin. Okay. Okay. Fair

1:12:51

enough. I'm just dying to hear what happens

1:12:54

and thank you so much, Wayne. I really, really

1:12:56

appreciate it. You're very welcome.

1:12:59

Right on, man. We

1:13:06

never got to do the psilocybin follow

1:13:08

up. It's hard to get these

1:13:10

guys to come back, but I remember

1:13:13

when I had this talk with him, how

1:13:15

meaningful it was to me. I'm very sad

1:13:17

to have learned that he died

1:13:20

and he was a good dude

1:13:22

and he helped a lot of people. The

1:13:25

original episode was two 99.

1:13:29

So there's some really classic

1:13:32

weird dopey shit in the front of that. So

1:13:35

I just want to say thank you

1:13:37

guys for listening. Rest in peace, Wayne

1:13:39

Kramer. You were an American original and

1:13:41

we love and appreciate you. Stay strong,

1:13:43

dopey nation and fucking toodles for Chris.

1:14:00

But I am gone and I'm going to

1:14:02

quit Jesus

1:14:06

is Drunk bars

1:14:10

I don't wake up And

1:14:16

finally he grandfathers I

1:14:20

died in bed I

1:14:24

want to be in your

1:14:27

farce And

1:14:30

I don't go

1:14:34

But I want to

1:14:36

visit dead

1:14:43

But I want to find

1:14:46

the perfect one The

1:14:48

perfect one We

1:14:52

love that we love

1:14:59

I'll guide

1:15:01

the light

1:15:04

neither past That

1:15:09

I've covered right through But

1:15:13

yeah we can't callidge long

1:15:17

We love this world We

1:15:35

love this world

1:15:38

I love I

1:15:43

love this world We

1:15:46

love this world I

1:15:51

love this world I

1:15:57

love this world I

1:16:01

wanna be the girl I

1:16:03

love I

1:16:31

wanna be the girl I

1:16:33

love I

1:17:00

wanna be the girl

1:17:02

I love