0:05

Welcome to drag

0:07

and a oh yeah

0:11

oh this is the official

0:14

the to the dragon it's okay

0:16

i am drag tito I'm

0:19

Shelly mazzanoble. You

0:21

did not want to pay

0:24

for

0:26

our listeners. I wasn't going to. I

0:29

just it's always interesting cuz you never

0:31

really know what Greg Tito you're going to get

0:33

for this. in

0:33

the action that's right we

0:36

live in a different like the indy you just

0:38

never know what your sign

0:40

are you never know what you gotta get

0:42

now while we know

0:44

what we're gonna get with today's episode

0:47

because we es su amazing

0:50

riders narrative designers

0:52

extraordinary justice are mine

0:55

the and elise kwan to

0:58

contributors to journey through

1:00

the radiant citadel he had a talk about

1:03

their adventures their adventures working

1:05

together as well as the differences between

1:07

reading for video games while writing for

1:10

a is the protagonists

1:12

not being a part of your writing which

1:14

is very different passing conversations

1:17

they're all good stuff and what what

1:19

a fun exciting both i'm excited

1:21

for us to dig into it a little bit more

1:24

for sure i will be doing our i'm you

1:26

may have seen the announcement it is

1:30

going to be released now on july

1:32

nineteenth everywhere are

1:34

so look for their you got a few extra weeks to

1:36

catch up with some of these writers

1:39

and their inspirations for the stories

1:41

and will be

1:43

i'm i'm up here on the dragon talks as well as on

1:45

the dmd website get excited

1:48

and maybe even on the indy beyond hurry

1:51

up for the go over there over

1:54

there is now like over here it over

1:57

here yeah it's a name

1:59

your location yes

2:01

the same i

2:04

well before we get to that awesome interview

2:06

we do have someone who

2:08

is near and dear to

2:10

this podcast yeah the

2:13

weekend literally say

2:16

a new hello mister nice guy

2:18

marlow

2:20

okay speaking of sneezes this person

2:22

that were interviewing their sneeze

2:25

actually sounds like they

2:27

are sneezing and blessing themselves

2:29

at themselves same time yeah

2:34

notices this weekend and as your

2:36

sees actually sounds like you

2:38

are sneezing and blitz of do it it

2:41

is it's like like

2:45

a ahead

2:48

i'm a retired from his chicago

2:51

midwestern upbringing read

2:57

it is a summer

3:02

we are talking about our peril

3:04

who are i don't imagine

3:06

there's of dragons og me wrong i recognize

3:09

as the progenitor of of this year

3:12

the dragons and is true ah

3:14

as well as a

3:17

roommate

3:19

my roommate barbara

3:23

yeah as you may notice

3:25

that

3:26

my child bears a striking resemblance

3:28

to him some people might say the

3:30

her

3:32

as well as the characters from the

3:34

essentials kids ah ah

3:37

no no relation

3:39

minute

3:40

hi topple very excited

3:42

doctor by cillizza looking for

3:44

an inside checking to see if he's the

3:47

people

3:48

i've always wanted to know what

3:50

do a lie detector test

4:11

welcome to another segment

4:14

of insight church we

4:18

, excited as

4:21

, , one of these people down

4:23

with my father ah

4:27

that would destroy that

4:29

we don't have now you're calm

4:31

intros anymore for the long timeless

4:33

as we remember you're very radio

4:36

voice

4:37

yeah oh yeah that was

4:39

a while ago that was back in the day

4:41

know it's like when lantos is the money

4:43

out and coming back to them except it's

4:45

much better and size mcgregor

4:48

only he never

4:50

find the iowa

4:52

i'm sorry and sell he is

4:54

on solar array

4:57

however much more comfortable assuming

5:00

a , a favourite muslim

5:03

are comfortable assess muslim

5:05

are aussies rubio yeah

5:08

ah

5:10

what those you don't know barge carol

5:13

what do you do at wizards of the coast

5:15

you are a you i wished

5:17

i made my official title a

5:19

senior digital marketing manager so

5:22

i do a lot of the online

5:24

marketing for these days dungeons

5:26

and dragons which is super awesome

5:29

ah a lot of this is working on the website

5:31

working on a dragon plus

5:33

and then i've been there for awhile

5:36

so over the years the

5:38

duties of varied from ah

5:41

working on helping that

5:43

stand up or or live streaming

5:45

channel back in the day the

5:48

worked in iron of extra life

5:50

or philanthropic efforts second the day

5:53

all these things were really great to work on

5:55

him and have been fun but also

5:58

working on the odd the the

6:00

podcast one it was just a

6:02

thought in an idea and that

6:05

in the brand teams my

6:07

my role in into are going to ten so

6:10

i think my ,

6:12

right especially the part recent it was all fun

6:14

i'm not sure of the i'm a

6:17

yeah i know yeah lot of it

6:19

has been

6:22

i remember there are a couple of times where

6:24

it was a we need you to be doing

6:26

something different something else and of is

6:28

always like oh my god how to do

6:30

this what i'm going to be doing and ,

6:32

are always some of the tasks that i

6:34

enjoyed the mouse mouse

6:37

trying to kind of break out of the comfort

6:39

zone or have my comfort zone broken

6:41

out for me so when like nathan

6:43

stewart was saying hey

6:45

you're gonna help with guy with set

6:48

up his founders of my son's events of

6:50

the i know dotted as but it

6:52

was always hey this is

6:54

gonna be something new to this new a bit

6:57

as it can affect the lot of mistakes on the

6:59

way of those raleigh some of the

7:02

things i enjoy doing in

7:04

hindsight doing writers

7:08

i know true it back

7:10

when you started this podcast the

7:13

union at

7:16

night podcast for just becoming

7:18

the thing so yeah it was kind

7:20

of on the cutting edge there are using know

7:22

anything about what it what was the

7:25

first step as always

7:26

the outcasts so this

7:29

know is if memory

7:32

serves as a couple of folks and in

7:34

the the aren't a department at the time and

7:36

then it was the same thing was hey this is something

7:38

we're interested in trying and it's than interested think

7:41

we have the website we have very

7:45

nice and social media presence at the time

7:47

want to communicate with with players

7:50

sorry podcast in a see

7:52

that's the thing and so right

7:56

business that why does then again

7:59

so soon and

8:01

we ended up just finding

8:04

a sign of a half used

8:06

office in

8:08

there was so slapdash it was

8:10

the one office in the building that

8:12

had a walk on the door and i saw know

8:14

why had a lock on the door like

8:17

of the equipment and nice and

8:20

, it's like buying

8:23

home panels off of

8:26

amazon and literary just a

8:28

boy them to the wall it was

8:30

just anything like that is no pattern

8:33

no meaningful way

8:35

as i guess is what a sound studio

8:37

it's like so who put in some some

8:40

and in our facilities would think

8:42

we were done with it take it down every so

8:44

often

8:46

yeah like like who's stapling garbage

8:48

zillow

8:49

near or far as a slave trade

8:51

with eggs and eleven when was this

8:55

, or is it was so

8:57

lightly amateurs and

9:00

just took a lot of that

9:02

the toils and garage band

9:04

the know on it produces some file

9:07

but it was fun same thing with knew it was

9:09

different of is funded try

9:11

what i like about what you're saying here is a diet that

9:13

that's the law says he stayed true for dd

9:15

for a long time when even we are you mentioned a live

9:17

streaming and and all that like a lot of there

9:19

was less , see what happens

9:22

how we can potentially break

9:24

barriers down so doesn't feel like

9:26

we're just publishing books and that's it like there

9:28

sooner you can see the

9:30

inner workings the decisions the things that are made

9:33

and i think a lot of what we did together all three

9:35

of us was all about trying to make

9:37

people feel like the people who are working on d and d

9:39

r well rounded funny exciting

9:43

go in people said to be or other three of

9:45

us excluded everyone else in moscow

9:48

no i i mean i don't have we talked about

9:50

this before but i'm in that was some

9:52

of the philosophy and this

9:54

is this is for for euro this is

9:56

follicle either philosophy go in and some others early

9:59

dmv why there were

10:02

greg you wanted to do something

10:04

new and different and older and

10:07

it was going to be a challenge and there were going

10:09

to be that we figured

10:11

out we couldn't do along the way things

10:13

that turned out like hey as soon as really

10:16

great on the way the the

10:18

first one was here in seattle

10:21

and it was new and different exciting and

10:23

and the reply

10:25

to be doing it may sickly wives rights

10:27

and start to finish their there weren't the

10:30

tape segments and then

10:32

the next year you had it in mind

10:34

like yes we did that we know it to be that the house

10:37

we make it a little bit different and a little

10:39

bit no bolder and

10:41

and try different things and and brought it down

10:43

the los angeles

10:45

on a not so yeah i do is

10:47

a lot of folks have ,

10:49

that what you were big part of a to i mean didn't

10:51

want to get em you are you are giving up a

10:53

all the right things are how do we integrate the web

10:56

into all of these events make that happen

10:58

i was always your your specialty was was web

11:01

web and making

11:03

that like come to life and has now

11:05

been what he said what your focus it as i can talk a little

11:07

bit about what's going on with

11:10

on , that stuff now

11:13

oh and i'm a little checking to make sure that this is

11:16

ah yeah no

11:18

yeah bit so bit think it's

11:20

think it's secrets obviously

11:23

that's website is

11:25

going to be in a bit of a period of transition

11:28

we made the side

11:30

in announcement speaking of old and

11:33

exciting things i'm with

11:35

the day in day beyond that acquisition

11:37

and partnership and how

11:40

we sort of move forward together and

11:42

in that world ah it happens

11:44

we come in at a time when we were going through

11:46

a website to version

11:48

anyways part of my job

11:51

when we were watching fifth edition

11:53

was the web and these other lifelong

11:56

opponents and i think

11:58

were going back to

12:01

given a little bit of a renewed emphasis on

12:03

the website it said the

12:06

there are some some dusty corners there

12:08

are some some material that we do need to refresh

12:11

and the people

12:13

side of it weird in the midst of

12:15

converting the

12:18

site from from one i'm

12:20

back and to another so hello

12:23

this is going on in a while

12:25

were also spinning up

12:27

campaigns product pages in support

12:29

of sell jammer and

12:32

you know journeys to the radio citadel and

12:34

finding ways to make

12:37

better use of those and carry

12:40

more material and resources

12:42

on those page for our users so

12:45

the there there's a lot

12:47

taking place which is exciting and

12:50

i think a lot still more to com which

12:52

is which is awesome

12:54

i am a role the since i checked but this

12:56

is also gonna be part

12:58

of your performance review ah

13:01

yes seventeen so you know read

13:03

man yeah

13:07

cause i don't doubt that you're a like it's all about trying

13:09

new things still even though it is

13:12

in different formats and different things and is about

13:14

how do we how do we connect with fans

13:16

yeah and i mean that's part of the

13:19

role of that's what we're talking with

13:21

sally anne and with sarah

13:23

the franchise same about no

13:27

material and and that will be

13:29

bringing to the site the summer and beyond

13:32

what else they need the i decide to do

13:34

that the

13:36

fans

13:38

yeah i , know how much was

13:41

it

13:42

well working backwards again you you

13:44

you have been here at

13:47

wizards of the coast for are not

13:49

quite as long as silly as that right or

13:51

you longer i'm an adult on

13:53

by been there for eighteen years wow

13:56

oh i didn't realize it was thou long as

13:58

the only sixteen

14:00

now i'll two thousand and four

14:02

so they are

14:05

set up a little bit the history was i was

14:08

pigeon a broader was in the peace corps for a couple

14:10

years in the late nineties then

14:13

i bet points i'd i didn't really have

14:15

roots anywhere since i was abroad

14:17

for two years about well i i can go anywhere

14:20

so i decided seattle

14:22

was an interesting

14:25

side instead he had whizzes at the post

14:27

that was always sort of their desire

14:30

and then i know that's transfer

14:32

a little bit sad it's an engineering

14:35

firm all

14:38

gas as the i didn't propane

14:40

energy which is not as excited

14:42

for after such as the dragon ah

14:45

but then don't have fireballs though yeah

14:49

As I moved over

14:51

to Microsoft, I was working at

14:53

Microsoft game studios for several

14:55

years. And then that was right at the start

14:57

of Xbox, which was and

15:01

then parlayed that into a

15:05

the contract position at wizards

15:07

at first the came fulltime

15:10

which i was super excited about when

15:12

making properties so it was working on it

15:15

, it really there is a good

15:18

reason i've been here for eighteen years of it's just

15:20

that ah challenges

15:23

ongoing challenges of what i'm doing

15:25

but also the brands have been

15:27

and hostage other the dragons at work magic

15:30

the gathering the thought i was working

15:32

on on star wars and g i joe

15:35

that the training for games

15:37

for major league baseball was

15:39

just a trend continues to be like

15:41

oh my god and i believe the

15:44

to in our work on on

15:46

these properties everyday than

15:48

a delight and

15:50

i'm not really nice

15:52

the how did you i don't think i've ever actually heard

15:54

this exact story how does you to meet the

15:58

how i could tell i know

16:01

a guy side of minute really doesn't know how

16:03

effective so

16:04

and i remember feels like he's kind of just

16:06

always been here

16:07

i read how how we're

16:10

what's what's sad that of the style

16:12

italian on our level

16:17

matt now exists how is

16:19

the best friends how did we first nice

16:22

of the isotope

16:27

if it and , feels like a real bear

16:30

jumped on the the

16:33

we're good of for the cover

16:36

off with the secret about

16:38

what no i don't even know

16:40

what's the secret is that whatever it is leave

16:42

it as a

16:44

ah this

16:47

is worse and worse

16:53

we did not do anything illicit growth

16:55

i'll tell a story now you've lost the privilege

16:58

we were both working a neo pets the

17:00

our beds and

17:03

we use of have like we would

17:05

actually print out all

17:07

the cards

17:09

the called a guidebook or is it was every

17:11

single cardinal said

17:12

in part was the web guy

17:15

and he's like we were just email and

17:17

he's like and at

17:19

god but allah like okay

17:22

where do you said and side i

17:24

brought him this book as or

17:27

i brought him when he was the guidebook in i said

17:29

three go like

17:31

a nice enough guy we must have chatted for a minute

17:34

there are those that but

17:36

then we you thought neon lights would have brought

17:38

you together

17:39

it was a we met and are we talked

17:41

again as a holiday party that year

17:44

i think i will were both like with days

17:47

like there was not we we were just

17:49

fran channing believe we have a lot in

17:51

common so we to steal our friendship kind

17:53

of struck up from then from

17:56

then on and then

17:58

started hosting podcast the other and

18:00

then yeah then you know

18:02

you know how i get the sparks fly

18:05

when you host the podcast oh wait wait

18:07

what

18:09

remember from a

18:11

, harmon harmon

18:13

in are welcome to dragon to

18:16

it's i dunno i love that

18:18

the onward married couple the whole relationship

18:21

there it's amazing yeah the

18:23

really really surprise dan harmon without

18:25

one

18:26

that i went were your meds

18:28

language your i didn't know

18:30

of folks new are awful now

18:35

oh my god you clear it you're not a dragon

18:37

tog listener

18:39

you just outages as a couple of

18:44

the dragons i'd ever we

18:46

talk about you and your has now

18:48

the time

18:49

well like i said i think new fast

18:51

you're inside checking and fourteen here on

18:53

i you do actually being married i think

18:55

that we can persist with

18:59

the amount of amount of and forth

19:01

here

19:06

fun facts i think it

19:08

was lit with document

19:11

you actually have to sell out to get married as a

19:13

some marriage license or surmising it like

19:15

whatever one that's like of is it would have what's when you

19:17

get to keep right

19:18

we chris perkins sold ours out

19:20

because his handwriting a soda is only

19:23

bilic i know it's really sweet

19:25

fun fact the far left or

19:28

marty durham and illegal was are efficient

19:30

so yeah now the wizards

19:33

but the cleric have made cnd party

19:35

at the time the made

19:37

i'm totally legit

19:38

love all this level as well i

19:41

love that you are to started a

19:43

this podcast is it has been a

19:46

joy in burning were you doing now is

19:48

amazing stuff as well as old as if we did he

19:50

have enough to itself you

19:52

check out a lot more of all this story in

19:55

welcome to drag and talk i'm an hour later this

19:57

year by barn i think

19:59

you pass the inside track i think we we have

20:02

we now know the truth value

20:04

know and appreciate the reason

20:06

i'm going on in a few words by all means

20:09

i think while the podcast might have started

20:11

as experiment

20:13

to see now how could this could

20:15

the sam to the if i guess

20:18

i think you guys have done such a great job

20:20

over this years and years of nerves

20:22

like making as

20:24

that's just a in our podcast

20:26

that a great podcast and

20:29

i really i really am

20:32

proud of what you guys have done with it and know

20:35

i'm delighted and

20:37

it's it's been going on it's it's

20:39

it's fantastic so rajoy sustainable

20:42

that the and and that you know

20:44

thanks to bring it for bringing on ryan i don't

20:46

think this been cancelled of in and yeah

20:50

that's actually an audio outdoor

20:54

is also terms in the bug eyed level now

20:56

still in it all i actually think

20:59

so much barred well as you get back to you

21:01

, the web minds of

21:03

send over

21:26

well that was awesome i love talking to

21:28

the is always going game is super fun

21:31

and know it's don't answer your favorite saying my

21:34

, okay but where did you do interact with making

21:36

the hadn't and i

21:39

love that we're that the you know talk about the

21:41

book in how is the ball been in getting

21:43

dragons are started was was a big barnett

21:45

none of this would be happening we

21:47

can say if it weren't for barker

21:51

added a true statement that in fact he

21:53

even higher the ryan

21:55

zero happier of the hall wow

21:57

sees his influences

22:00

continue to live on finger tips are

22:02

all over it makes that

22:04

ah well we are now going to

22:06

speak to and to game designers

22:08

you have very different backgrounds but

22:10

i think work well together so let's say get

22:14

our guest on the horn

22:18

everyone let's welcome just as armand and

22:20

police quad to drag

22:24

every saturday both are here you

22:27

, both writers for journeys

22:30

through the radiant citadel both did

22:32

an awesome really great work on that i've

22:34

just as you are now it's a employee

22:37

of whizzes of the coast of game design which is really

22:39

exciting as

22:41

the first book first got to work on very excited

22:43

about that

22:47

why are you have really good track record incest

22:50

freely guess is that radiance citadel

22:52

basically the is dropping you re

22:55

here and beautiful went and

22:56

washington yeah the

22:59

, go towards as much as

23:03

euro narrative designer on video

23:05

games really exciting and others

23:08

lot of parallels between dmd writing

23:10

and and they're designed for for games right

23:12

yeah i found that to be the case and

23:14

it was it , for my first

23:18

the deity public isn't and public isn't

23:21

projects to to ,

23:23

into it's so or

23:25

that the eyes

23:26

you also have and a stellar track record

23:29

think it is ah i'm sure

23:31

it like hell

23:33

how do you did you how did

23:35

you become involved in this in this

23:37

project from from the from the beginning

23:39

may be fully susan star search

23:42

, i'm known audit for for

23:44

years we met in a lark i

23:48

i was i is it was a of

23:50

of it wizard that and he served meats

23:53

and it was

23:55

with papers they

23:58

are you obeyed by jewish

24:01

we we we have kept in touch

24:03

over the years of and he's been i'm

24:05

obviously involved in the am gmt

24:08

for for quite some time and

24:10

when the when he was putting the other

24:12

the team to be writing a he tv

24:14

sets me and i was

24:17

absolutely felt

24:19

no hesitation zero to psych some amp

24:21

or the none whatsoever oh yeah not that

24:24

not only knew his tissue like gratitude

24:26

for for for sure and this

24:28

is a dream project

24:31

you are history with under the dragons have you played a

24:34

dd

24:35

what we went out of origin story when it starts

24:37

so

24:39

one time nerd mainly lurking

24:41

and muddying bags they

24:44

encounter we were deemed he was

24:47

on that the game that i was

24:49

a writer on mice a strange before the storm

24:51

has a say that meant to tip entirely optional

24:53

the main character chloe is bumming

24:56

around her high school and see

24:58

can sit down and play the indy with

25:01

stuff and mikey who are two characters their

25:03

arm and so i was one of the writers

25:05

on this segment so as part of the research

25:08

we

25:09

clinton campaign's on my

25:11

body mass ram wine and and and we

25:13

use that for inspiration you

25:15

know we we went through all the forums you're

25:17

hearing about it and that

25:19

experience was my was my introduction

25:22

ends the

25:25

game became enormously popular with

25:27

with players so

25:31

i love those references to dad doesn't

25:33

dragons in

25:35

something like stranger things and and more passive

25:37

entertainment but it's did so much more engaging

25:40

when it is you know a choice that you're

25:42

making as making player right

25:45

yeah my night and i got some people started

25:47

the indies because of that like the just

25:49

like happened to me so yeah so

25:51

if there was a shirt on one of the they'd the main

25:53

characters like a critical role show her something in

25:55

the game is a nice way to sell

25:57

it became a thing because that

26:00

segment was popular enough that when we

26:03

and i made the say episode of the game we brought

26:05

back on the be there is another session the

26:07

to play in hospital and then the next

26:09

game like sustains true colors featured

26:11

the dm character who was desks

26:13

i'm in her own a dlc and

26:16

critical role was officially

26:18

involved in that dlc you

26:20

have i think you have

26:22

have else and can see

26:25

some the members

26:27

on the dating app have been assessed

26:29

sound so and checks out

26:31

but i'm very critical of easter eggs to the

26:38

how

26:41

i will about you justice how did you

26:44

i'm involved in this

26:46

you're not as cool as story and did

26:48

not get a lark with other yeah all

26:50

diners zad for pc of ah

26:53

yeah but yeah yeah i

26:55

got yeah i get a message out the

26:57

blue is i did not know

26:59

who aren't it was before that

27:01

the and a friend of mine said

27:04

i'm a a cast your name

27:06

for something over here done of

27:08

eating will come out of it but if you get an email

27:10

from the skies you should answer and

27:13

yeah i jumped on a call with them with them i

27:15

it was one of the last riders added

27:18

because they'd already been a little bit into the project at that

27:20

point but no

27:22

in felt incredibly lucky to

27:25

have gotten the chance to to be honest

27:27

i think and had seen some of my my

27:29

part i say done before on the dmc oh my

27:31

god cannot keep and and and dark hold

27:34

on and and some of those before and

27:37

the news is a dream love the are

27:39

awesome introduction

27:41

to canada behind the scenes

27:43

a year at the indian

27:46

done there were just incredible and

27:48

what a what a great opportunity to be able to

27:50

tell the new kind of a new

27:52

or story

27:53

in in the indy on

27:55

as kind of that first introduction

27:57

to it so a very grateful now

28:00

or sergeant has become a very close friend

28:02

of mine a mentor ah and

28:04

i'm actually in have some lunch it's a mere in a couple weeks

28:07

on out and rent

28:09

no are you going to cook for him because i thought

28:11

you love and you talk about some

28:13

yeah he he i don't think he'll let

28:15

me not cook for him every some catalyst

28:17

as it will comment on and and

28:19

i have promised some and impressive spread when

28:21

oliver cookware arrives ah

28:24

afterwards saw any

28:26

, you all may come as well so i'm

28:28

from ah i'm out there hundred processing

28:31

you up on that wonderful success

28:33

and gotta love love cooking iranian

28:36

food and selectable

28:39

, cooking is such a labor of love and i think cooking

28:41

for phase some of the adventures you'll

28:43

find and find journeys and

28:45

having the very first adventure from surrey

28:48

not on and features cooking

28:50

and features features in some incredible waste

28:54

i love that by when this when this event happens

28:56

just as you will have served rj an arduous

28:58

served you police and and the whole circle

29:01

around , and there's no no

29:03

, a fact i was a server

29:05

for a long time in a race to say justices

29:08

said and like as like ah ah

29:10

ah like all

29:14

, under his funds wow

29:17

i love we talk a little bit when

29:20

we're announcing a journey

29:22

to the radio signal justice their justice their around

29:25

your adventure button rich folks

29:27

who may i

29:30

you might have a little bit about what that isn't and

29:33

watch people can expect with shadow of the

29:35

sun

29:35

there's a shot of the sun is an eleventh

29:38

level adventure that takes

29:40

place in a city state

29:42

ruled by a an angel neighbor

29:44

task on in the adventure

29:47

your it's kind of sat around this

29:49

sub fantastical festival

29:53

or that takes place during an eclipse an

29:56

eclipse were at night the moon

29:58

shines is brilliantly

30:00

as the sun are so it is called

30:02

savage of on which means the brilliant night

30:06

though during that you will be exposed to

30:08

kind of these these and resistance

30:10

groups that are in the city or

30:12

which is called ah settings and god

30:15

which means the last defense and

30:17

for some people are unhappy with the angel

30:19

and kind of the more iron fisted rule

30:21

and then ah other people side with the

30:23

angel and and throughout the adventure ah

30:26

your characters get to

30:29

pick a side and and you know read

30:31

the consequences of bad

30:33

the

30:34

two main thread that every choice they

30:36

make one trench them in some other little

30:38

deeper in each of the factions and

30:41

ah ah maybe influence

30:43

the outcome of the a bunch meaning

30:48

yeah a while it

30:50

no can't go but what he was you love

30:54

i did it i love that it's it's in the way

30:56

you describe that adventure it doesn't feel

30:58

like they're i'm extremely traditional

31:00

like are you going into a dungeon in you're going to slay

31:02

monsters grabbed a loot and come out like there's

31:04

so much more to ,

31:07

there's so much more player agency to add that i

31:09

just i love that

31:11

whole framework that yelp changes up

31:14

the old narrow tiger wood the india

31:17

in and wesley snyder or the other

31:19

a lead on the book was very

31:22

helpful in in framing that so

31:24

that the choices felt real throughout the adventure

31:27

and there wasn't a de facto

31:29

you know this is the good side this is the bad side

31:32

is the way that the encounters

31:34

are set up in the adventure of your challenging

31:36

your own expectations of things a challenging

31:38

your perceptions which perceptions think is very much a theme

31:40

of theme birth of seen something

31:43

once one way and then experiencing

31:45

ads and having and different more

31:47

well rounded perspective when you finish

31:49

the story yeah

31:52

when i love so much about this book

31:54

is is the the influences

31:57

of the lived experiences a lot like pulling

31:59

from from lord and i

32:01

know i'm i'm half

32:03

lebanese and i like my mom with

32:07

always i've i'm a writer and i'd love story

32:09

telling and she was always

32:11

telling me like you get that from me

32:14

like best as as from us

32:16

because there's the story time was such an important

32:18

part of middle eastern culture

32:20

and like with my relatives it

32:22

was a at a time we would go to grandma's

32:25

house it was all the sisters

32:27

all the and the graham like at it it

32:29

was just stories and let the same

32:31

story is a lot like a sick leave out like the families

32:34

that your own family folklore

32:37

and i'm and i was

32:39

trying to think of it before this this

32:41

interview there was a word

32:43

that you said the only reference call

32:46

me

32:47

because some people would say storyteller

32:50

some of them would say liar

32:52

and i i just think it's

32:54

know it's the details that make your your

32:56

story better but i can't remember

32:59

i couldn't remember what the but the word was the

33:01

anyway so why it's am

33:04

when you have the opportunity write the story was us

33:06

a story that you already kind of had in

33:08

your in your mind to ride or where

33:11

did you come up with with that inspirations

33:13

i imagine you you're probably all

33:15

of knowing that you're a very creative and

33:17

enjoy the i'm i'm writing things

33:19

all the time any time you know this oh

33:22

a desert center and that already down and like maybe

33:24

i'll put away and come back in one day that of much

33:27

something ah but we

33:29

had we had different pitches that we made so they're actually

33:31

of there are two other versions of something

33:33

now close this this one out

33:35

and this was my favorite of all of the three stars

33:38

as really happy that resonated with believes that this

33:40

was the when they're interested it's so interesting

33:42

the talk about storytelling is my dad

33:44

is a you'd storyteller and

33:46

of the movie a big fish are these two

33:49

month ah them of the always

33:51

makes me think my dad because he can i haz that

33:53

you know he's a liar that kind of tall tale yes

33:56

runs out to be true and i went to iran i

33:58

see these places my dad's old about

34:00

the story that my oh my gosh that was real

34:02

he's like yeah right here's a oh this

34:04

is where this haven't this is where this happened and

34:06

that movie is so cause my heart because of that

34:08

but i'm one note their john august

34:10

is the screenwriter for big fish and

34:13

ah he is a dvd player and

34:15

love indiana , script

34:18

notes notes that

34:20

with his co host craig mazin and we had

34:22

the my way back in like twenty sixteen

34:24

or some i doubt i'll show you a long time ago

34:26

by just i was i remembered yesterday months

34:28

are detected on your on a lot of the and

34:30

enough to that to that film because

34:33

it is you know what we think of

34:35

like when we when we imagine things they're always

34:37

bigger and larger than life and larger than

34:39

and your they get to be proved out

34:41

and somewhere police when

34:43

you got a huge advice before we start recording that's

34:45

that you wear a coat working a lot

34:47

on on these adventures together did you did

34:50

you get to see them of are just as is that

34:52

in of ideas come about and and

34:55

yeah job each other so

34:57

for a variety of reasons and

34:59

among them being that justice was

35:02

among that they were there are a handful

35:05

of books on the books who who says

35:07

experience i'm says lot of the

35:10

people for newer like myself were

35:12

really really learning from so i i know

35:14

that i was we were all

35:16

able to read each other's brass and i was

35:18

always poring over justices

35:21

arm and to see you know what

35:23

what recent habits the i could learn and

35:25

incorporates arm and

35:27

then there was a little this further lucky

35:31

coincidence that i work

35:33

really late at night and

35:36

i believe this was one

35:38

time where we were doing it was

35:40

that like

35:40

the up with never sleeps on

35:45

thursday that ah

35:48

quite so ah religion that that the one way

35:50

it was late and and it was really

35:52

cool to have somebody else who who

35:54

is up at that time to coerce

35:56

because yeah that and and fully says

35:58

other the police they really

36:00

right or has incredible ideas like

36:02

police would have ever read the

36:04

the your adventure and just be

36:06

blown away by itself or when

36:09

the way that you write it is is incredible

36:11

as well so on that

36:13

for i tell myself very lucky to have

36:15

recovered to the us and we do that again

36:17

maybe not an issue

36:19

mm lens you yeah not it's not it's

36:21

not as you am my my husband

36:23

i was reading his eyebrows

36:27

but i think some of the it's like hearing

36:29

you talk about on the

36:32

story going as fast as

36:34

the tradition their it's it's it's

36:36

so interesting because my

36:38

own father and my mom's you

36:41

would often talk about their history

36:43

in taiwan and the are

36:45

very similar mix of yeah

36:49

this is that what for i came out of from the opposite

36:52

of you were you were like wow that was real i was always

36:54

like that one hundred percent real with

36:56

i taught like

36:59

we're descended from you know the

37:01

great my gosh wow

37:03

to or something like that we get with us as i am

37:06

still with us a lot of my

37:08

my image i see many you'll find

37:10

that like so many the adventures

37:12

in this book or simultaneously

37:15

like very unique and then have

37:17

these the thread

37:20

be some decent and

37:22

connection family history oral

37:25

traditions and so

37:28

similar manner on my

37:30

adventure definitely explores

37:33

ideas of

37:36

history reception

37:39

more than one side of a story

37:41

you know and and and a truce

37:43

that kid could big two different opposing

37:45

treats the could just both be i'm

37:47

would emit i think that

37:49

the fact that so many of us hacked into

37:52

our own personal experiences

37:54

west and potentially parents

37:56

or grandparents is reflected

37:59

in alive

38:00

adventures that's really cool you aren't

38:02

as little bit about your your adventure oh

38:04

yeah i would say they just what's this what's

38:06

the quick i always have to be quick what's the what's

38:08

the difference

38:10

he will i have written a certain

38:12

level adventure it's called very dynasties

38:15

the setting his arm it's the capital

38:17

city of young teens and it's loosely

38:19

inspired by the forbidden city in china

38:21

and so on the forbidden city

38:23

is the capital of built on the same location

38:27

for for many many and

38:30

a dynasties worth so hurry

38:33

dynasty is called

38:35

seem dynasty and prides

38:37

itself extremely on it's stability

38:40

it's longevity and i'm

38:42

one of the things that they like to do is though

38:44

in few the ruins of the

38:47

architecture on which the

38:49

current city was built and investigate

38:52

whatever historical artifacts can be found

38:54

from prior dynasties and

38:56

ah it's why do your and down

38:58

there so in this particular venture

39:00

the grand secretary has hired the party

39:03

to help with a particularly vicious section

39:05

of of the old city to retrieve

39:08

some artifacts and

39:11

, you might expect for thirty five or venture what

39:14

his discoveries his not necessarily what was planned

39:16

for and then so one of

39:18

the other closings and these adventures

39:20

or new monsters can

39:23

you tell us on our baby boy that be to spoilers

39:26

yeah there's some throughout some of the other adventure

39:28

so i don't know

39:31

which all the i think there's eleven right yes

39:34

none so mine

39:37

has mine a

39:39

a type of angel it

39:41

is called the perry ah

39:43

so as if you translate

39:46

the word perry and actually translates

39:48

to ferry

39:50

now but he kind

39:52

of positioning these as a celestial

39:54

on as an angel eyes very rooted

39:57

in their appearances ah in

39:59

ah

40:00

the iranian myth and legend of

40:03

for example is ,

40:05

may which is like this is sort of

40:07

like the odyssey the iliad the odyssey

40:09

for iran does national effects

40:12

as a big problem as written on

40:15

the sixteenth century ah

40:17

there are these on there

40:20

it is god that takes the form of

40:22

a perry at the beginning and

40:25

goes down and warns the first team basically

40:27

of things to come the and

40:29

so are there is like a little bit of

40:31

a gap between your cr ten i

40:34

gather and you see or sixteen forms

40:36

are so your patrice it's or

40:38

atlanta right in the middle ah and

40:40

they take this kind of role as features

40:43

of foresight site and kind

40:46

of looking at home and so they

40:48

make great advisors or the that

40:50

their the kinds of were a devil's can say hey this

40:52

is what the god wants to tell you and a planetary

40:55

can be like it's too late here comes you

40:57

know fire and brimstone are all those things

40:59

that the perry's the one that's like how you need to change

41:02

your ways because i see this in your future

41:04

and this is what's gonna happen if you continue

41:06

down this road on so there's

41:08

a very prominent featuring taffy in the

41:11

adventure on which you get exposed

41:13

to very early ah that that

41:15

follows you throughout can die these

41:18

very say do that they also for wings

41:20

and one thing

41:22

that i think i was really cool about

41:25

this project is that we

41:27

all got to write our write our

41:29

and for the pieces which appear on

41:32

so that really hot yoga ah yeah

41:34

yeah and that that helped give us

41:36

like a little bit more ownership about has

41:39

some of these things appeared and we

41:41

were able to prioritize things

41:43

that we wanted to see in them so if

41:45

you look at all the art of the angels is very

41:47

inspired by like aca many person

41:49

or they're very the old angels

41:52

vs kind of the the garb you see

41:54

in the the citizens is

41:56

a little bit more modern and more medieval

41:59

and even some like current day

42:01

where appears on

42:03

but when you have them side by side they look very

42:05

different from one another and

42:08

and and i know i've seen some of the art

42:10

and for least as a better so ah

42:12

i know it's incredible an entree that's

42:14

what phillies thinks about that yeah

42:18

the art is

42:20

when using really really cool

42:22

i'm and i think what

42:25

does the thing about this about

42:28

getting a have some ownership over the

42:30

earth i really appreciate

42:32

it because

42:35

we were able the you make sure that

42:38

we were able to move between out things

42:40

about the way as al anon

42:43

anon it leaves was depicted that we might not

42:45

normally get to say and and that was

42:47

really really precise because thats we've had

42:49

that platform that me these little things

42:52

i'm calm opposite sex you

42:54

wouldn't realize matter of a tremendous

42:56

amount that

43:00

is interesting skill to to be able to

43:03

i love talking about it with the designers on

43:05

the india because it's not really narrative

43:07

writing it's very descriptive it's

43:09

very much like let's give the tools to

43:11

the artists who are then going to

43:13

interpret your very specific

43:15

were doing yoga did ethic is an art orders

43:18

not a lot of words joints was to be like

43:20

a hundred maybe on and fifty words right at

43:22

the most as we have to compact all that

43:24

information into that without editorializing

43:27

really like it's it's it's it's hard to learn

43:29

i'm really yeah of when you what did you

43:31

think about that experience of getting all and information

43:33

out there the

43:36

oh yeah well i think

43:38

in addition to that those words we did

43:41

have the opportunity to get a lot of reference

43:43

imagery and i don't that's that's

43:45

unusual are not as an insult

43:48

you part of you know part of the

43:53

herbie awesome that with was he was being

43:55

able to i'm to show

43:57

you know when when just attacks that the differences between does

44:00

the tiles the do to

44:02

literally pull ups and give to the

44:04

artist a picture of exactly what we were talking

44:06

about yeah

44:08

and being encouraged to do so

44:11

bible i guess picture is worth a thousand

44:13

words or a pass or hundred

44:15

and isn't and you know it's really great

44:17

too because you

44:19

only get so many art pieces in

44:22

pieces in adventure right and so

44:24

every one that used met says

44:27

something about the pieces a whole

44:29

and then those are the things that the

44:31

dm draws on for inspiration

44:33

and in future descriptions so

44:36

you know you you take like the way that the persian

44:38

empire is depicted in three hundred they're

44:40

literally monsters they were all black

44:43

the mass and starts to be

44:45

able to save all the

44:47

people of of a cigar here

44:49

inspired by you know in

44:51

some ways like iranian myths and legends

44:54

that there are they were much more colorful

44:56

clothing as they're not walking

44:58

around in full suits a plate armor

45:00

in a hot climate with a black

45:03

mask and and capes

45:05

and everything on to this super cool looking

45:07

in some ways on beat i

45:09

was able to like provide there are

45:11

references of like an actual persian

45:14

immortal which they wore scale

45:16

mail or know what is that whatever the

45:18

one that thinks that thinks it's scale male like

45:21

press place within they carried like wicker

45:23

shields and were very lightweight

45:25

clothing and so using that

45:27

and formed the fantasy i think helps and

45:30

have seen the art now months

45:32

down the road and really happy with the way it

45:34

turned out and then i know

45:36

other iranians have seen the art who

45:39

who love it i and and some

45:41

of their messes beg me emotionally seeing

45:43

as it's ah is amazing yeah

45:47

we are previous guest last

45:49

week talked week talked bit about this idea of solar

45:51

punk

45:52

right idea and this is i'm

45:54

i've heard that word a couple of times but i didn't really kind

45:57

of really investigated the definition of it's

45:59

i'm they were really impressed with what they had

46:01

seen of the artwork and the presentation

46:03

of kearney's the radiance it on a monitor

46:05

and and put that to you to to see what you

46:08

thought about that word like that kind

46:10

of brightness that looking forward is still is

46:12

perhaps a little anti establishment in

46:15

in in the punk part of the word but it is

46:17

forward looking and not dystopian

46:19

right it is about how do you create

46:21

a better a better future it

46:24

would do that kind of inform some of your

46:26

your thoughts while making these adventures

46:29

the get it wasn't he , not

46:31

only in forming a strap and i think that both

46:33

west and opposite opposite a lot

46:36

of care even at the outset to

46:38

define that the vision of of

46:40

the book as a whole and you

46:42

on to to specify some of the things that

46:44

you're pointing out and i wanted me to clear

46:46

though clear that even though it's

46:49

hope pumper solar punks that that

46:51

doesn't mean that it's you know

46:53

roses and rainbows at all

46:55

in fact we were encouraged

46:58

to at as just as we did you

47:00

look at both good and

47:02

the bad that the mix of that that

47:04

is reflected in the real world today

47:07

and it's more about the

47:10

the direction that that each

47:12

adventure is looking toward improvement

47:15

toward hope towards for making

47:17

a positive difference but the

47:19

inherent in making a positive difference

47:21

is that there are very gnarly

47:24

problem you did into in

47:26

the adventures themselves and so

47:30

i i i felt like when what

47:32

one is a huge richard i'm working on a project

47:35

to be able to talk to a whole

47:36

bunch of writers from completely different backgrounds

47:38

for all kind of struggling with summer since

47:41

a lot of times when i'm working on a project that

47:43

has a character from my background

47:45

the kinds of questions that we are talking about

47:48

are really a surface level like on

47:50

you know but the please the tape this

47:52

character is representing

47:54

your race well and that they're kind of like nice

47:57

or the like come across positively and

48:00

the first time in working with just

48:02

as any other writers i was having conversations

48:04

lakes oh i really really wanna dig

48:06

into this kind of negative

48:08

aspect of my culture and i

48:11

you know i'm i'm my representing a fairly

48:13

among what is that what does that say on

48:15

how how can i examine this

48:18

in a way that both meaningful both

48:20

meaningful to dig q and and

48:23

an honest and so it was really

48:26

really cool to be having this conversation

48:28

the on a project of this caliber by

48:30

gives you can have storytelling without conflict

48:33

there needs to be some type of conflict whether it's a

48:35

new ideas whether it's a

48:38

, of a simple through neighbor says freedom

48:40

like the you're gonna have to have some type of

48:43

of conflict resolution as part of the storytelling

48:46

and so it's really fascinating to be able to buy

48:48

how do we had do bring that for

48:50

without feeling like it's punching down rain

48:52

in a that's true further character

48:55

q like we don't want characters that

48:57

are perfect for you we do

48:59

want to see some parts

49:01

of themselves that know they they have

49:03

to kind of

49:05

come to terms with our to or try to rectify are

49:07

like i don't wanna add add narrator that

49:10

just gonna have it easy all the time

49:12

and just be perfectly like of all make the right decisions

49:15

i want to see that internal struggle as well

49:17

that's human yeah my

49:20

laws are a big part of the you know

49:22

character creation process as

49:24

to for for since it isn't

49:26

anything anything even to like going off a character

49:29

creation like a lot of the each

49:32

one of these adventures has a little success afterwards

49:34

the tells you a little bit about the location and texts

49:37

i said and some oh

49:39

the book also encourages people to to

49:41

make the characters

49:43

from these places are because there

49:45

you have that radiant citadel that can get you to

49:47

other worlds ah and

49:50

i am a youth you can ever spells the having

49:52

set land in a funny one

49:54

of these locations and take them on to another adventure

49:57

on but that is there are some questions

49:59

that they the ask of characters there

50:01

that's like when you're making your character

50:03

what kinds of things do you think about here and yeah there

50:06

are some of them are kind of a deep

50:08

and introspective and then and then others

50:10

are exciting as you know it's

50:12

is going to like it

50:15

means that solar at night offering

50:18

think and it has like a night first you a lot

50:20

of stuff happens during the day but it's

50:22

still really real like there are still

50:24

threats they're they're still you know there

50:27

there's an angel and his his

50:29

servants that don't always do things in

50:33

the most understanding way because they

50:35

have a much longer perspective

50:37

on that at the same time yeah like

50:39

i i i love that it's so cool

50:42

that this was the a book that west

50:44

lad and and he also lad

50:47

britain's because you have

50:49

that very grim dark you can't escape

50:51

ever the domains of dreads relates

50:54

it's like straw might he is my

50:56

end for a moment or two but then the cycle

50:58

repeats itself was in

51:01

radiant citadel or as lisa

51:03

things are forward looking and in if the

51:05

character stay there it's it's they

51:07

they come back there is progress

51:09

there's forward movement and with that challenges

51:12

to bet on it's cool that

51:14

the nature of chances are interesting to in

51:16

in and and that's a circus is like some

51:18

elements in mario cease is incredible

51:20

and i know that like the

51:23

times we've talked about how

51:28

nerve wracking it can be to feel like

51:30

you're representing a a a

51:32

culture in fantasy but at the same time knowing

51:34

that like this is a piece and this is a piece

51:36

you never really get to see mike

51:38

enjoy it as fun adventure

51:41

their tell stories like these

51:45

are some

51:46

the i go back to your adventure felice

51:49

one thing that struck me as you're describing at ways

51:51

that idea of archaeology

51:53

about going into and finding artifacts

51:56

in the past and something it's very much in the

51:59

indies the a rail i usually

52:01

or that is that is

52:03

what do you it is all about to assert extent but i loved

52:05

that i that concept of like than being able to

52:07

be

52:08

the entity that telling the story based

52:10

on these artifacts is that is that like a scene

52:12

that you're kind of yeah very

52:14

much do you

52:15

it it's not just that you go down

52:18

into the past and stay there is entirely

52:20

about how to the things that you find about

52:23

in the past affect the present

52:25

day the vibrant city where there's a ton

52:27

of late recurring

52:30

and sniping and political drama what

52:32

what is the effect on the now does

52:35

the forward the future yeah

52:38

encouraging their play the players

52:40

the to find out that story ray and and

52:42

bring it to light like i love that i'm he had such

52:44

as a powerful to storytelling

52:47

to over for all of our be by member

52:49

when i was a kid there is some blessing

52:51

that i've never forgot where he described ah

52:54

they're made of metal

52:57

, polls and a ramp

53:00

and something in there were trying to scour this was a game

53:02

that people used to play in ancient times ah

53:05

but what they were really describing was a pizza parlor

53:07

and unless an aggro

53:10

that they were they discs were japan's

53:12

ever being put into another and and everything like

53:14

that and it's something that it's mean idol must

53:16

have been in sixth grader some sixth got when i got i read

53:18

that and it's that and was the board

53:20

of a history book it was like about like hey

53:23

we think this is why his but we have no

53:25

actual real as he has given that were there

53:28

were laughing at us together we can be

53:30

completely wrong and eyes and i always think about

53:32

that with the india's the context it's

53:35

really funny that stayed with you yeah

53:38

i played a success really announcer

53:40

when it comes back i know as they say you

53:43

were a hooks me was as i have since

53:45

we're not that exciting us

53:47

are so police your police

53:50

mean obviously no stranger to working

53:52

to working games industry and writing for video

53:54

games but i i

53:56

don't know never written and adventure

53:58

but i wouldn't imagine

54:00

and it's different but how how

54:02

was this experience for you writing

54:05

it would mean there were challenges but

54:07

he was just a with so much fun

54:10

arms and legs the

54:13

be the main difference i

54:15

think between what i do every day and

54:17

writing for am reinstated

54:19

out was basically

54:22

how much how much are you controlling for

54:24

sits on much are you setting up and

54:26

and with with with the it was it

54:28

was very very much setting

54:31

putting the tools in the box that the

54:33

players are going to keep very very wide

54:36

directions with with

54:38

a cinematic narrative venture game we

54:42

the things that a player can do are entirely with limited

54:44

by what a what a button

54:47

the bird that we're going to give them what are the cut

54:49

scenes that we're going to make on and so

54:52

being a having that field widened

54:55

considerably was simultaneously

54:57

awesome because you're suddenly certainty

55:00

all where the players my do this or they might you that's

55:02

an awful it sounded

55:04

you might imagine the make

55:07

sure that the players are

55:09

secured appropriately and

55:11

given the tools they need to have an awesome

55:13

time with freeing to

55:15

be able to just

55:17

not have to that you don't worry about the outcome

55:20

of everything or or was it does that make it

55:22

harder for you to

55:24

story if it's there's so much less open

55:26

ended and

55:27

i think there's a meant there was a mental said

55:30

when i had to kind of late sell soon

55:34

is it won't cost me like of the what do we think the

55:37

player is going to be thinking at the

55:39

moment especially in our games there's

55:41

a lot of a toy space mechanics

55:43

you know you tube you build a relationship with characters

55:46

entirely so we can then like mess

55:49

you up by presenting you with a really hard

55:51

choice that gonna affect your relationship

55:53

with this was character so we're always

55:55

trying to think like sour characters in it that our

55:57

players going to feel at this moment where they get think

55:59

it moments and it's literally impossible

56:02

to know how players are gonna think i feel

56:04

at every moment in the d d venture because they might

56:06

be doing something switch off of

56:08

in an entirely different lights pass

56:11

on the universe we can see both ends

56:14

i mean i think i think that that part of why i am

56:17

so grateful to justice and and

56:19

other people on this project because just hearing

56:21

from people who have have have worked in this

56:23

medium for quite awhile there

56:26

was definitely a point where i suddenly like got

56:28

and i was like the so

56:31

i'm happy says like you

56:33

and your it's like a some of it's it's it's

56:35

a set up on you know if you have the right

56:38

ingredients their the players

56:40

are gonna the bring them their own self to

56:42

it and make it what it needs to be

56:45

yeah the perspective

56:48

really i watched it click to as far

56:51

as leading resume you know we'd know

56:53

we'd over a paragraph of that this is really cool

56:57

like but what if this and

57:00

this that kind of awareness of fully

57:02

slight out into the box

57:04

is just like open and it can be as open as

57:06

the need say but like the easy

57:08

adventurous to that tried it a try

57:10

to account for every scenario

57:13

with the reality is there was always

57:15

just like if there's a scenario didn't write

57:17

that's the one of the players will find like every

57:19

time it doesn't matter if you try your

57:21

best but they want to break your

57:23

nice things

57:25

the about that you are warning me that that with your

57:27

side characters you

57:29

were like getting mean examples ss where you

57:31

are like are like i ran this campaign

57:34

and then there was like a random school was

57:36

it was like a storekeepers and lily that

57:38

pink hair enough that how serious

57:40

a sounds right mister professor

57:43

of philosophy at their best the you

57:45

build of and entirely flat character the

57:47

you expect one instance to be

57:49

involved and that's

57:51

the one that the players one hang out when it's that's

57:53

the one they want any of their life stories as

57:55

so on the want to bring on their adventures with the and

57:58

the yet and and you your

58:00

best

58:03

i think a big sisters while was when i'm writing

58:05

a video game i'm in dialogue with the player

58:07

and then i think i slowly came to understand

58:10

that this adventure i'm a dialogue with with

58:12

the dm lilies i am i

58:14

am helping i'm not

58:16

telling store and i'm hoping i'm hoping you tell

58:18

the story with your group of players and i think

58:20

that's that's that's just awful

58:23

really really helpful for you have to have some trust

58:25

that they are a thinking

58:27

person who can

58:28

do we got to just described it in a guy right well

58:30

there's another linear about the character but miles

58:33

go and make it happen and

58:35

you right there has to be an implicit

58:38

trust and like dialogue

58:40

to supremes like the word dialogue in dialogue different

58:42

sense for like dialogue video game super

58:44

important the can

58:47

use it says you the characters

58:49

there's not a dialogue in and in

58:51

table or some and some box text but

58:54

ah is is it challenging to like

58:56

the not have as much or at an homage dialogue

58:59

you typically right or it

59:01

was

59:03

create a cool learning experience i know

59:05

that i'm your abs the right that when we're

59:07

in a lamp

59:08

like were like trying to convey

59:10

to the player what to do and also what is

59:12

this person personality it's an

59:14

arm or , a ton of information

59:16

and in the in the adventures

59:19

we have me be in the quotes from that victory

59:22

and pcs early for ants and unwelcome

59:24

that flavor and i know that the

59:26

editing process i was able to see how

59:29

my initial dialogue which might have been a

59:32

lot more we

59:35

were filled i guess was words

59:39

week you really help i

59:41

dm understand what

59:43

is the role that this empty seats is

59:45

going to do for you as you said he's

59:47

just venture and , some some

59:49

really clear signposting that was was

59:52

cool for me to watch in

59:54

transformation yeah

59:57

that is really cool cause i'm thinking of like

1:00:00

the collaboration that happens when you're writing a script

1:00:02

for up for a play or a movie and

1:00:04

an actor and director had yeah he goes

1:00:07

you know still there's and they as and chains and

1:00:09

and worth the the line sometimes

1:00:11

as as if it's a new play that they're working on a were jumping

1:00:15

and , it's not that dissimilar from what you're talking

1:00:17

about right where it is that you know i have to just

1:00:19

give the tools in a know that

1:00:21

it's the interpretation is gonna happen and gonna happen

1:00:23

was gonna be as a table is gonna

1:00:25

be probably very different from anything has written

1:00:27

on the page but knowing

1:00:30

that it will have those core tenets and how to get those core tenets

1:00:32

across like that i

1:00:35

know that's adventure writing you know to a

1:00:37

d there it

1:00:39

is this and it's and it's cool to like

1:00:42

it

1:00:43

the whole adventures the story right like

1:00:46

it's a theme it's a theme that the characters

1:00:48

go through and might it might not have there's

1:00:50

a point eight and there's probably a point the

1:00:52

at the and and if they from

1:00:54

something while my have and they might not make it to that

1:00:56

point beat it is it's the aggregate of

1:00:58

all the moments that is the story

1:01:01

as and you can those situations

1:01:03

in the themes around themes i think is what tells

1:01:05

the story and it's not

1:01:09

you don't you to tell the whole thing you could set it

1:01:11

up and hope that the dm years

1:01:14

it in the direction you intended and if they didn't

1:01:17

that it's still fun anyway like

1:01:20

a narrow jumping off points

1:01:22

i always think of like when i'm

1:01:24

reading a really good story what

1:01:27

it would be like to play this the

1:01:30

dmd advance heard and not bad

1:01:32

because adventure writing to me like really

1:01:34

does just blow my mind like

1:01:37

i'm so i can't wrap my brain around

1:01:39

house looks ups parts of it

1:01:41

that are left how

1:01:44

henson like as that's the parts that the players

1:01:47

and the de amor going to so and those details

1:01:49

so i always try to lead look at like a complete

1:01:52

looks just like a regular story and

1:01:54

then if it was to be turned into a d

1:01:56

and d or any you know role playing

1:01:58

adventure there were those cuts

1:02:01

like where would you

1:02:03

the central i cut out narrative

1:02:06

told let

1:02:07

the players take control of that story that

1:02:09

makes any sense at all and i don't i don't know if that's

1:02:11

even the race philosophy behind

1:02:14

writing an adventure but i

1:02:16

how would you be yeah like is somebody is

1:02:18

like justice i am

1:02:21

ready to to take this step and

1:02:23

i have great stories and my mind

1:02:25

i know they would be fun for a dungeon master

1:02:27

and players where do you where do

1:02:29

you begin with that story

1:02:32

again i guess a lot like how

1:02:34

do you get your feet and

1:02:39

and like how how to ride out an adventure

1:02:42

the and the thing that i will preference all

1:02:44

of it is is like even now after

1:02:46

however many years like

1:02:49

still really hard against a challenging

1:02:51

tanks and there are people who do this

1:02:53

all the time that will get to the end

1:02:55

of something they've written the and

1:02:57

look at it and go wow like i miss the sap

1:02:59

somewhere this is not the play testers are not

1:03:01

liking this adventure this is it

1:03:03

didn't go the way i intended at the table

1:03:06

on i think that my

1:03:09

like my biggest advice is like focus and situations

1:03:11

not stories are true tried it if you have

1:03:13

a story you wanna tell both the

1:03:16

break it into it's like face message

1:03:19

the and have your encounters

1:03:21

reinforce that message to that by the time

1:03:24

like if you read it and you get sick

1:03:26

of message over time emmy

1:03:28

that like one third of that message made actually

1:03:30

make it to the table so they won't be

1:03:32

cigarettes you look like sporting sunder

1:03:35

inch in chapter four there's chapter on

1:03:38

of like encounters that are themed

1:03:40

around giants there's like giants

1:03:42

honestly there's honestly hundred and sixty four locations

1:03:46

nobody runs every location so

1:03:49

if you have five sessions in there you might get

1:03:51

hundred and ten of those encounters you're going

1:03:53

to come through that and the message will have

1:03:55

really gotten delivered if it's in most

1:03:57

of them so nein

1:04:00

and you try your best you write a lot

1:04:02

and and learn from letting people

1:04:04

who aren't you run your stuff and

1:04:06

don't give them any preference like say hey

1:04:08

i wrote this will you run it a

1:04:11

and see how that goes and then ask them

1:04:13

about it and it

1:04:17

the ran the play testing is a very

1:04:20

important part is like you like we we have blinders

1:04:22

on when we you know create

1:04:24

something and it you

1:04:26

never know what's going on stick or was

1:04:28

gonna resonated kind of similar to

1:04:30

like what and pcs the fares

1:04:32

the fares to gravitate towards and which ones are gonna

1:04:35

despise some

1:04:36

no no no and ,

1:04:39

what are you what do you hope people get out of

1:04:41

of your adventure like what's what's the

1:04:44

what are some of those themes and things situations

1:04:46

are just as talking about what are some of them that

1:04:49

you wanted us to a you hope to hear west

1:04:51

is comes out people run it

1:04:53

i i hope that people will

1:04:55

enjoy the though

1:04:59

i i i i i took a to bring this

1:05:01

up in my adventure but that the location

1:05:03

that it's situated in this sort

1:05:05

of i'm really ,

1:05:07

city that has long drama going on and

1:05:10

hopes as the adventure of also whet

1:05:12

the appetite for the situations

1:05:15

that are potentially right

1:05:17

for conflict i think

1:05:19

that is a fun people

1:05:22

come out of my

1:05:24

setting or my adventure thinking whoa

1:05:26

this this culture this land

1:05:28

has i'm a ton of

1:05:32

i'm just gonna be really exciting

1:05:34

too late you ,

1:05:36

up then

1:05:39

that than the proud

1:05:42

you're right because that's that's what's interesting

1:05:45

about ah or

1:05:47

any of these stories is that like luckier sears

1:05:49

years the sending a you wanna you want to embody

1:05:52

years diane and when we when we women even

1:05:54

what you're talking about selling of like seeing a movie or

1:05:56

reading a story like i want to be in that

1:05:58

world i want to play in that world and that

1:06:00

desire is what any game

1:06:02

maker wants rain is to get

1:06:05

that excitement for buyers go

1:06:08

the you dm your adventures

1:06:10

is that fun for you to do or as allah god

1:06:13

to to close to the axe and i can't the

1:06:16

when i agree question as well i want to know what

1:06:18

what what you would they just because like

1:06:20

i

1:06:23

i'm i mean i definitely want to i

1:06:25

want to if you know it's interesting too

1:06:28

because both police and i are adventurous

1:06:30

take place over leveled sense mistakes of

1:06:32

our adventures or accept their pretty high

1:06:34

lighten their can be a whole campaign

1:06:37

in these locations before you could ever

1:06:39

get to this point i feel like i'm

1:06:41

a thesis the outcomes of them

1:06:43

fundamentally have the potential

1:06:45

i feel like to change some things about

1:06:47

the the location and which is both

1:06:50

exciting and like the

1:06:52

you know enjoy it a suit i think

1:06:55

the short answer yes like on i'd love

1:06:57

to run it and i'd love to run it for like my family

1:06:59

on i asked a lot of cryptic questions

1:07:02

to my dad throughout the fastest and as any

1:07:04

super proud and i would love to run for him and

1:07:06

my a man and like different

1:07:09

members of my feelings but also one or another

1:07:11

adventures in here life there's nothing

1:07:14

there's nothing like reading years and been like

1:07:16

writing years and then reading somebody

1:07:18

else is working here but oh my gosh

1:07:21

it's so cool the night of the remembered

1:07:23

like oh my gosh this is amazing

1:07:25

and then you flip the page and you see errands

1:07:27

adventure like whoa like what is that

1:07:29

art pieces so different from the last

1:07:32

adventure and it's is is get excited

1:07:34

and so

1:07:36

yet and ah

1:07:39

, mean now i want to see the i i

1:07:41

mean everybody's streaming their their play

1:07:43

throughs of of everything but now i

1:07:45

want your family playing misadventure

1:07:48

for the first time first time feel like they're i

1:07:50

feel but smiles and cheers as well as

1:07:52

dramatic moments

1:07:54

yeah my dad would probably saving in the back and

1:07:59

nine more than ever

1:08:01

that's a big show some

1:08:04

ssssss our what about you police

1:08:07

are you going are under

1:08:09

well just because exactly what we're

1:08:11

him an earlier like is

1:08:13

where creamy situations as much these

1:08:15

stories like stories just i want to

1:08:17

like watch some million people playing

1:08:19

and see how they like have heavy differ

1:08:23

and i don't if if i were to run my own

1:08:25

adventure i feel like i'm like neither

1:08:29

have like , given up looking

1:08:31

for so entirely a be suzanne

1:08:33

about as that unlike i don't care at least you had a real

1:08:35

i'm not going going ah

1:08:39

so offended by what sets it said

1:08:41

though but like flipping the peaches and b i or and that

1:08:43

or about our think it's it's our it

1:08:45

is so true there so

1:08:48

that every single adventure it is really

1:08:51

really cheesy her

1:08:52

yeah and i we've talked about a little bit about how

1:08:55

odd it was set up the the

1:08:57

whole idea of the radiance that it on how you could

1:08:59

go to all these different things like i'd that so i'm

1:09:01

the most excited about his seen people treat

1:09:04

for campaigns or i've

1:09:06

been in feel just on the adventure

1:09:08

in the settings of each individual one or

1:09:10

as a whole and weaving

1:09:13

you know it almost feels at summer

1:09:16

december what i love about the cosmic

1:09:19

the marvel movies right where it's like you just

1:09:21

go to anywhere and it's completely fantastical

1:09:24

doesn't even really make sense

1:09:26

but it's so fun to to delve

1:09:28

into these different i have you know

1:09:30

shards of reality with it

1:09:33

i think it can be so much money

1:09:35

there were more multi vs is getting

1:09:38

to be a big like saying

1:09:40

i think like weren't the point now and like like

1:09:42

cinema where you have

1:09:45

everything everywhere all at once which was incredible

1:09:47

your doctor strange your have all

1:09:49

these like properties were like properties

1:09:51

think people are multi verse is gonna be like

1:09:54

the household term in five

1:09:56

years by dimmers by as

1:09:58

older version and this the idea

1:10:00

that like i think people are going to get

1:10:02

really comfortable with like a ticking the person

1:10:05

they like playing and just believe you know

1:10:07

why i never are now i'm leaving of ongoing

1:10:09

here lane what and what's fascinating about that

1:10:11

idea altogether that it on

1:10:13

here before but i think the indy is

1:10:16

the monkey bars

1:10:18

not you're not in the lore sense of like the

1:10:20

dmd multiverse by

1:10:21

you literally are going into another world with

1:10:24

four or five your friends word

1:10:26

a few hours and then your the

1:10:28

next day you could we have a completely different characters

1:10:31

that it's completely different version of yourself

1:10:33

in a completely different story and we

1:10:36

as dmv gamers and players

1:10:39

right yeah that's just my weakness is what my

1:10:41

life is but that's not true for people

1:10:43

who don't play this game right they're not constantly

1:10:45

shifting their entire worldview

1:10:49

based on the stories and the people that they're hanging out

1:10:51

with any given day ah so in some

1:10:53

way we're already in the multiverse

1:10:57

right i take out a sexy

1:10:59

the us right

1:11:02

affect me my opinion that we

1:11:04

did it maybe by getting dmv to be so popular

1:11:06

we're the ones who created his own you know multiverse

1:11:10

are you

1:11:12

there are a home with them with

1:11:15

with with a zoom causes he can drop

1:11:17

the might i said

1:11:19

slam him slammed allowed to opt

1:11:22

your unscrew the of out

1:11:26

a good tactic from the real housewives

1:11:29

been on the reunions when they were virtual

1:11:31

and the way they wouldn't i say like slammed

1:11:33

or

1:11:34

down that's a completely different sort of reality

1:11:38

that , is that the multiverse and i

1:11:40

am and right now i'm

1:11:42

in to tell muggy somehow i

1:11:45

was actually atlanta up whenever it's

1:11:47

tough but middle east is go the

1:11:51

i think reality television as get

1:11:56

i've been a stay because the name is the

1:11:58

dragon the comment excited

1:12:00

frustrating thing season four

1:12:03

the tehran iran israel to the

1:12:05

finale the court system that

1:12:07

greek wedding so yeah yeah the

1:12:12

excellent

1:12:13

well it has been wonderful talking to both of you about

1:12:15

the know this creative process about bringing

1:12:17

these adventures delight i can't wait for people to

1:12:21

, able to jump in as we announced

1:12:23

that it is down to late nineteenth when people

1:12:25

will be able to have experienced

1:12:27

earnestly rating citadel we got a

1:12:29

couple more weeks to get people excited and i'd

1:12:31

swear which i think is is only a

1:12:34

good thing so so

1:12:36

for that i'd felice

1:12:39

how can people find out about i are the projects

1:12:41

you're doing and some of your work

1:12:43

on on my to strange

1:12:46

i'm microfiche two colors is ah

1:12:48

it out on all our

1:12:50

preference and my

1:12:52

twitter is dec nine underscoring

1:12:55

belief and justice

1:12:57

for that you

1:12:59

how i am on the twitterverse an

1:13:02

sms , the where i talked

1:13:04

about a industries are

1:13:07

you prepared yeah

1:13:09

read and cooking and be

1:13:11

included for teachers next

1:13:14

we've got to get fatter that

1:13:16

on the bus will have will have and auburn

1:13:18

as the ancestry the

1:13:21

the mouth is watering already are

1:13:24

actually law against their way for journey seriously

1:13:26

though thanks again for comment on you two are

1:13:29

awesome indeed fiji something thank

1:13:31

you that amazing

1:13:36

what wonderful people

1:13:38

are creative storytellers

1:13:40

i just as always when i speak

1:13:42

to people like this i just get so inspired and want to

1:13:44

run their adventures i know a

1:13:46

new i love how excited

1:13:49

indy creators are to

1:13:51

share each other's work to yeah

1:13:54

like they're just third

1:13:56

others best supporters with i

1:13:58

just i just love it i just i just let

1:14:00

this community i love the people in it

1:14:02

me too i salazar very funny

1:14:04

comic meme today on twitter whereas

1:14:06

the artist community and it was two people on one

1:14:09

person's as i hear every love your our accused and dollars

1:14:11

and and an extreme as to , other officer

1:14:14

way i really love your i were here's ten dollars

1:14:16

and as do they see this goes back up

1:14:20

and that is to that certain extent of we

1:14:22

we extent do buy into each other's

1:14:25

your dreams and and making

1:14:27

a reality for each other we lift each other and

1:14:31

little each other the about wonderful

1:14:34

well thank you for listening as always

1:14:37

welcome to dragon talk is coming out

1:14:39

this year we'll

1:14:41

get to see some of the us lifting

1:14:43

up in real time a in that

1:14:45

book as well as hearing

1:14:48

, the history of didn't

1:14:50

experience growth over the years

1:14:53

the will have any we can even start dropping of the

1:14:56

preorder lanes into our show notes

1:14:58

we can start doing that iran or do we want to hold on

1:15:01

well we i mean we heard

1:15:03

i've

1:15:04

i preordered it everywhere

1:15:07

, fifteen a moment of

1:15:10

your ever but we'll ever we'll we'll it up there

1:15:12

we want to be when we do it with a big splash with the

1:15:14

i will be yellow regularly for that yeah

1:15:16

it's coming but we are excited

1:15:19

for that and you can find

1:15:21

out about

1:15:23

are all of our work i'm at greg tito

1:15:25

on twitter and greg underscore

1:15:27

tito on instagram and

1:15:30

he went at you i'm actually move

1:15:32

on twitter

1:15:35

instagram and i will also say

1:15:37

you should definitely follow gregg because

1:15:40

one of your posts recently made me laugh so

1:15:42

hard when you had all your minis out of in

1:15:44

your legs i'm gonna organizers

1:15:47

i have a label maker and label

1:15:50

maker was propped up in the bathroom

1:15:54

oh nerdy i love it

1:15:56

no at the minis now the dds

1:15:58

the label makers what

1:16:00

like modern know ah

1:16:04

edit love that it was like propped up

1:16:06

there like i'm coming for you mister

1:16:08

behold there yeah these you algo

1:16:10

in the that been labeled behold i

1:16:13

i always said that as much as being

1:16:15

idle label makers coming for you i

1:16:17

deposited soft in you as a

1:16:19

price happening

1:16:20

the a big monsters now stat

1:16:22

a map greg's were up the label

1:16:24

the eager

1:16:25

i have not actually done any organizing so

1:16:27

i did it was out a self fulfilling

1:16:30

prophecy

1:16:30

well done because now we get to see

1:16:32

more sunny after them know that

1:16:35

label maker try all wrangle i

1:16:38

almost at the picture to barred could i have the been

1:16:40

of many that he gave to me oh did

1:16:42

he when you guys were cleaning out your grads

1:16:44

there's another been

1:16:47

earlier i would get a like the i

1:16:49

didn't actually opened the previous been

1:16:51

that you'd give me advice you lied to

1:16:53

him okay scientifically

1:16:54

i'm thinking about putting a few and and like

1:16:57

our little free library are you might

1:16:59

idea no evidence or in center

1:17:01

and some dmd stickers and there

1:17:03

and get really excited when i see these little kids

1:17:06

walk around with them oh

1:17:08

yeah i mean an inner some many

1:17:11

the roof mounted and maybe artists are putting them in ab

1:17:14

are you the economies around my house that i don't

1:17:16

really like ten or him as

1:17:18

yeah i love i love them people make

1:17:20

little fairy villages around their house why

1:17:22

not to make some

1:17:25

that to be a fun weekend project i mean we

1:17:27

literally have enough where everybody

1:17:29

in west seattle could make their

1:17:32

my sister villa if you're going with the a demon

1:17:34

every year ago the as a minister

1:17:36

where seattle neighborhood let me know

1:17:38

we will i'll

1:17:40

give you a handful many of

1:17:43

it's so great

1:17:44

well one of those many as i i found

1:17:47

that i was excited to show you with a taxi

1:17:49

ah know where to back to fight

1:17:52

or maybe they'll be my main version

1:17:54

, once darryl to she says

1:17:57

wow the

1:18:00

premiering on this story

1:18:02

the on t is in the middle of

1:18:04

a extremely large fight

1:18:07

against a humongous

1:18:10

doppelganger and it's true form says got

1:18:12

his baldus are awful almost

1:18:15

stay puff marshmallow like a

1:18:17

, consistency

1:18:20

the loyal order of mages

1:18:22

and protectors has been writing

1:18:24

griffin's trying to destroy

1:18:27

this creature before rampages any farther

1:18:29

in water deep one of them crash

1:18:31

landed you got there one of wonder and

1:18:33

had been trying to use that to defeat

1:18:36

the large

1:18:38

doppelganger here

1:18:41

and you are successful in casting darkness

1:18:43

upon it's face and it became

1:18:45

disoriented it doesn't know where

1:18:48

which direction the

1:18:50

it enemies are coming from and then you see

1:18:52

balthazar your know miss

1:18:54

friend who tried to impress you to join the

1:18:57

way order against the protectors many

1:18:59

, ago he said

1:19:01

ireland light up

1:19:03

they're gonna go one final attack

1:19:06

on , the mods or

1:19:08

go and he gives the order

1:19:11

and you see every one one

1:19:13

the the majors they're all strange looking

1:19:15

some of the of robes and them as

1:19:17

funny have some of them have a

1:19:20

stab some than of ones they're all

1:19:22

pointing on the and was doing

1:19:24

a dozen griffin's a no dmd

1:19:27

wizards pointing at this doppelganger

1:19:29

and they all shootout

1:19:32

various things muslim fireball sometimes magic

1:19:34

missiles some yards that

1:19:36

again your sight to behold the when it

1:19:38

in his disoriented stay and the op's smash

1:19:41

up against said and do

1:19:43

massive amounts oh my god and oh

1:19:47

wow i rolled

1:19:50

six six six four four for

1:19:53

damage and that

1:19:55

is a nurse action

1:19:59

yeah

1:20:00

to the doppelganger i guess it's all

1:20:02

of these explosions kind of shoot all around and it

1:20:04

cheaters or or

1:20:06

or and it starts to fall

1:20:09

and as you see it's ball and how

1:20:11

laugh at it looks like it is going

1:20:14

to fall directly on to

1:20:16

the wagon of hey in which

1:20:18

no role models other files

1:20:21

because feather fall on

1:20:24

the doppelganger gather vol prepared

1:20:28

it

1:20:29

didn't you tell me the nowadays belts

1:20:31

that love you

1:20:34

don't react with given he was did

1:20:43

oh that was really sweet of you just ice

1:20:45

or i got confused with my my

1:20:48

plasma eight warlock from up my

1:20:51

spells him

1:20:51

then oh i am yeah so

1:20:53

i know i don't believe me i do not

1:20:55

i was ok let's say that drunk he says

1:20:58

i guess other fall and literally

1:21:00

nothing happened

1:21:03

all right i'll make me a

1:21:05

performance sacks let's see if anyone

1:21:08

hears user

1:21:12

ah you're thirteen

1:21:15

thirteen and let me see

1:21:17

if thousand sir

1:21:20

the able to hear ya he got a nineteen

1:21:22

on the die for perception so he

1:21:25

, able it's you hear yours

1:21:27

advantage fall why we wanted to

1:21:29

die and fall and

1:21:31

my brother because

1:21:33

of his hypersexual he sees you pointing

1:21:35

towards the limp body

1:21:39

the are all in that thing and you see

1:21:42

em

1:21:42

make a split decision be kind of

1:21:45

i texted heels into the griffin

1:21:47

and he shows the fly down and

1:21:50

and law happening as this this

1:21:52

doppelgangers teetering and falling so

1:21:54

there's like a little bit of balance will slow motion

1:21:57

thing but nowadays it's falling snow

1:21:59

your family careful griffin is is

1:22:01

is going down to try to save

1:22:05

and we will see what happens

1:22:09

or about it any easier

1:22:11

i don't ever

1:22:12

the idea that ah ,

1:22:14

ha ha ha ha oh

1:22:17

my goodness that's going to happen

1:22:19

i don't know but i will say darryl

1:22:23

kind of oh yeah

1:22:27

even though he's in toronto holding me back