0:06

Welcome to Dragon talk.

0:08

Yay.

0:11

Oh, excited to be here

0:13

on the official exceeds the

0:15

dragon's podcast. I'm Greg Tito, and that's

0:18

Shelley Masanabe. Hello.

0:22

We're making things happen over

0:23

here. Yeah. Like, you're singing. Your

0:25

your cat dancing and making make it things

0:27

happen.

0:28

It's a beautiful day, and I

0:30

filled with vitamin d. Endy.

0:33

Wow. I feel like there's there's some some marketing thing

0:35

we can do there for vitamin D and D.

0:38

Yeah. Take your centrum.

0:40

We'll partner with the sun. We

0:45

shall partner with my

0:47

son, the sun.

0:48

My son would probably not do

0:50

a partnership with DND as a

0:52

Oh, no. Nor the sun. He doesn't like it. He

0:54

wants to be away from the sun at all times.

0:56

Yep. Anyway

0:58

Excited to speak to our guest.

1:00

This week, Hashahed,

1:03

is here and is a

1:05

very accomplished TT RPG

1:08

player on the streams and

1:10

has some really think awesome thoughts

1:12

around

1:13

it. So I can't wait to get to get

1:15

what they have in store for us.

1:17

Excellent. This is gonna be fun.

1:19

I know. Right? Yeah. Very

1:21

exciting. I also wanted

1:23

to make sure everyone knows that you

1:25

are a part of my heist

1:27

crew. I'm gonna bring you in

1:29

with a secret message from the Golden

1:31

Vault. Okay. And

1:34

everyone listening you must go

1:36

to these coordinates.

1:41

Play that backwards through your CD player

1:43

if you can find one. And you might

1:46

find a secret treasure that will lead you

1:48

to

1:50

the rebels end.

1:51

I I think I have a CD player in my

1:53

car.

1:54

Should have said record player. Damn

1:56

it. Damn it. My controller

1:59

player. Kind of like

2:02

golden bulbs, something that they might

2:04

use the the music box that

2:06

is associated with how you receive your

2:08

messages.

2:09

From the Golden Belt. I know. Sometimes it

2:11

plays music. Sometimes it gives you missions.

2:14

Did you take the

2:16

quiz to see which heist

2:18

crew member you would be?

2:21

I did not, but I'm pretty sure I'm the

2:23

bag man.

2:23

Really?

2:24

No. I don't know. Would I be

2:25

the first

2:26

man? Or the driver? I think I

2:28

should be the baby driver.

2:30

Right. That's right. I think I

2:32

I think I'm the driver.

2:34

Do you like driving? Are you No. But

2:36

I think I would just be better, like, not

2:39

in the fray. I don't know if I can

2:41

be particularly

2:43

quiet. Stealousy, deaf

2:45

with I think I'd panic. Let's just say

2:48

that.

2:49

So that's the person you want driving the car.

2:51

Or driving cars I just feel like just need

2:53

someone to come out and just be like go.

2:55

And then can go. I'll just

2:57

go. Right.

2:58

Breakneck speed. I think that's that's

3:00

what you need. Because I want

3:03

to be part of the crew.

3:05

Like, I'm very much excited

3:07

about participating in a heist adventure.

3:10

I just don't know if, like, in you'd

3:12

really want real Shahid as

3:15

part of your

3:15

crew. I just don't know.

3:18

It depends. Some people have hidden

3:20

talents. Maybe you are a code breaker

3:23

or a safe cracker at

3:24

heart.

3:25

The decoy. You're the

3:27

decoy. That's it. I could I could

3:29

be the decoy.

3:30

Yeah. You could be the decoy. Okay.

3:33

I don't know if that's a that's

3:35

a good thing because that means you end

3:37

up being

3:38

the ire of the law

3:40

enforcement there.

3:42

What I thought? I

3:43

don't know. You well, you have figure out how to get

3:45

away. See, that's all the planning. That's what it all.

3:47

It all has to too. I mean, I would just

3:50

be like, I didn't know what was

3:52

happening. I'm I am just here to

3:55

perform.

3:56

All these discussions are gonna be taking place

3:58

amongst player care groups

4:00

as they try to figure out how to overcome

4:03

these thirteen challenges that

4:06

are in keys from

4:08

the Golden Vault. Very exciting.

4:10

For those folks because you're

4:12

right. It fits the the DND group,

4:15

you know, milieu so perfectly.

4:17

Mhmm. I I really I'm

4:20

I maybe have been spending too much time thinking

4:22

about

4:23

it.

4:23

And now I have to get to the interview.

4:25

Like, what role would I be in this?

4:27

But I I'm just I'm very, very

4:30

curious to see how this plays out.

4:32

Well,

4:33

maybe being the planner is

4:35

more like being the brand manager for

4:38

D and

4:38

D. So

4:39

Well, you do know that I enjoy

4:41

planning things.

4:42

You might make a nice PowerPoint

4:45

around the --

4:47

The heist. -- lots lots of post it

4:49

notes. Put

4:51

it up on the scrum board.

4:53

Yep. Yep.

4:54

All of the above.

4:55

I don't like that word. Scrum?

4:57

Yeah. Feels like we're gonna get

4:59

into a fight. Right? I was like, oh, we're

5:01

gonna get into the

5:02

fray, into the scrum. Oh, yeah.

5:04

Greg and Shahid, they had a a bit of a scrum.

5:09

Awkward. Oh, man. I went time I bit

5:11

into a scrum and it was extremely

5:14

What?

5:15

Moldy. I don't know. It feels like a pastry

5:17

for me.

5:18

Oh oh, interesting.

5:20

Mhmm. Don't eat the scrum.

5:22

It's gone bad.

5:25

Or is the scrum what

5:28

it is now that it's gone bad.

5:30

Oh. That that

5:30

apple looks like it's got a little bit of scrum.

5:33

Oh. Just

5:35

cut the scrum off. The rest of it's okay.

5:38

You can bake a scrum cake. What

5:42

time I started up to a holiday

5:44

party, I hadn't had anything to eat. So all I had

5:46

was scrum cake. It

5:48

was scrumptious. Wow.

5:55

It's

5:55

a very

5:56

pun to its furthest.

5:57

I don't know possible

5:59

reaches.

5:59

I don't even know why we went there. Can

6:01

you, Greg Tito, Yeah. King

6:03

of segues get us out of this.

6:06

I sure can by telling

6:09

you all about our book. Welcome

6:11

to Dragon Tag, which is out everywhere

6:13

now. It's on Audible. It

6:15

has many of these wonderful

6:18

segways and or transitions

6:21

from one bit to the next in

6:23

our own

6:23

voices, and you get to hear us read them aloud. So

6:25

has. Very exciting. Cool stuff.

6:28

Okay. Shahid anniversary to

6:31

Ryan. Yes. Started

6:33

working on Dragon Talk eight

6:35

years

6:36

ago. Right around now, we'll just

6:38

say, And

6:38

it's thanks to Bart Carleton that got him

6:40

on the

6:41

floor. Right? Yes. That Bart

6:43

interviewed Ryan.

6:45

And who famously said he doesn't

6:47

know anything about dungeons and dragons, but he loves

6:49

clean audio.

6:50

Exactly. And that is that's

6:52

all it takes. So very

6:55

excited to welcome our guests and

6:58

get into the conversations about

7:01

turn to the dragons as an art form.

7:03

It playing it in front of an audience. I think we've talked

7:06

about that a bunch of a lot of creators, but I

7:08

think has got some really great ideas about

7:10

how to elevate this beyond just

7:13

a bunch of people on microphone

7:15

on a screen. I agree. Why

7:17

don't we find out? Let's do it. That's

7:21

welcome. I'm Nasha. Hit two. Dragitalk.

7:24

Yay. Welcome.

7:29

Thank you so much for having me.

7:31

So excited to have you here chat

7:33

about all of things that you're doing in

7:36

the rpg space. You

7:38

are a streamer and a

7:40

player of of games in in in many things.

7:42

And some of

7:43

them, we've talked to your DMs

7:45

in the past. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know Connie

7:48

has been on this show in the past, and

7:50

that's been really, really exciting as well

7:52

for transplainer.

7:54

Yeah. So why Can you

7:56

just narrow it down for

7:58

us? Like, some of the things that people

8:00

might be familiar with you

8:02

from? Or or where where are you being

8:04

featured these days? Yeah.

8:07

So I am primarily a tabletop

8:10

performer. I am also

8:12

doubling in producing nowadays

8:14

as well. And I'm a cast member on

8:16

variety of different actual plays right now.

8:19

So the shows that you can currently find

8:21

me on include higher

8:23

education over on Avenos

8:25

channel, the second

8:27

stranger over with translator RPG,

8:30

ETA1 by Knight, which is over

8:32

on Bad House RPG and the Mythic

8:35

Initiative, which is on v o underscore covalon's

8:37

channels. Those are all long

8:39

form, long term sort of campaigns

8:41

that are currently on going.

8:44

I love that. I love that there's been this huge,

8:46

like, growth in this

8:49

type of programming that people can do it for, you

8:51

know, for Dungeons Dragons, of course, but then for

8:53

so many other tabletop RPG's

8:56

out there. And I loved

8:58

that there's the Itwan by

8:59

night. Like, that's that's the is

9:02

it a vampire based? Yes.

9:05

One? Yeah. It's a vampire fifth

9:07

edition, vampire the mass grade actual

9:09

play. It's an all Asian cast,

9:11

and we are playing in Itaewon, so

9:13

in South Korea. And it's

9:16

been a really, really fun AP

9:18

to be part of. We actually just

9:20

wrapped up our first season and are kind of

9:22

gearing up to do the second season of the

9:24

show, which is really exciting. I

9:27

love that. Yeah. What

9:29

what and I'm being, you know, being

9:31

from that culture

9:32

too, like, what kind of things are you bringing to life

9:34

in in that actual plan

9:36

and others? Yeah. So for

9:39

Ituran, so I myself am not

9:41

South Korean, but I am, like,

9:43

South Asian. And so all

9:45

of the cast for ET-one are

9:48

from different parts of Asia. Our

9:51

GM, our story teller for that game is

9:53

Josephine Kim, who is at scary dog

9:55

friend on Twitter. And Joe,

9:58

as the GM has done a fantastic

10:00

a big amazing job in sort of pulling

10:03

in all of her own knowledge

10:06

and experiences from her culture into

10:08

the story. And so it's really when

10:11

you watch it and when we play it, like, I really

10:14

do feel sort of like the the

10:17

attention to detail and the care that,

10:19

like, Joe is bringing to the show. And

10:22

it's very obvious that there are sort

10:24

of different aspects of, like, her own culture,

10:26

like, specific mythologies, for example,

10:28

specific stories, folk tales that

10:30

are being brought into the show and

10:32

being made relevant. And Joe has

10:34

also encouraged like all of us to sort of like

10:36

bring in our own experiences as well,

10:39

and that's been really interesting to sort of

10:41

like like, play with and to sort of,

10:43

like, see how those

10:46

kind of cultural influences can, like, mesh and

10:48

meld together. And that's been a really

10:50

fun experience for me personally.

10:54

I love

10:54

that. Yeah. What what are some examples? Because

10:57

that's always I I think, you know, listeners of this always

10:59

love to hear, like, you know, things that

11:01

they can bring into their games as well. Like, so we what

11:03

are what are some of the the the mythology and folklore

11:06

that you know, it's

11:08

being highlighted? Yeah. For

11:11

each of them specifically, one of my favorites

11:14

is that the whole the

11:17

whole sort of premise of the show for season

11:19

one was, like, this murder mystery. Right? This

11:22

one character has been killed off and our

11:24

sort of coterie has been brought along

11:27

to solve the murder and figure out, like, who

11:29

did it, what happened, etcetera? And the

11:31

whole murder mystery is kind of couched

11:33

in this story of

11:36

and the only, like, major clue that we had to

11:38

start with is that the person whoever

11:40

it was that did it was seen with this like

11:43

hotel mask, which is like a very

11:45

particular mask that is often

11:47

worn in specific Korean

11:51

plays that has sort of like this

11:53

really cool effect of if you look at it from close-up

11:55

versus look at it from far away, there's like different expressions

11:57

on the face. And so that's

11:59

sort of been a really fun, like, symbolic

12:02

thing that show has brought into the game.

12:06

And for for my

12:08

character, I remember asking during sessions era,

12:11

I was like, oh, like, would you like us to play?

12:13

Like, Korean characters since we are, you know,

12:15

set in Seoul or

12:17

set in Itaewon specifically. And,

12:20

you know, Joe said, like, no. Like, you can play, like, whoever

12:22

you want. And I always make a point

12:24

that if you notice like all of my characters

12:27

across all of the shows that I'm on, they

12:29

all have very specific like

12:32

muslim names because, like, I come from

12:34

a Muslim background, and I feel

12:37

it important to sort of, like, play

12:40

characters that come from my own, like,

12:42

culture and come from my own experiences. And

12:44

so the characters that I play on each day one, for

12:46

example, is Seres Rahim.

12:48

And, like, Seres is very

12:51

specifically, like, a, like, box body,

12:53

like, vampire character who has, like,

12:55

moved to Itaewon. To

12:57

be a lawyer and to sort of

13:00

play in that space. And, like, across

13:03

all of the APs that I'm on, that's

13:05

been through. So for example, I

13:07

do it especially. I've, like, really leaned hard

13:09

into it for the mythic initiative, which

13:12

is a monster of the week campaign. And

13:14

for that game, I play a

13:17

character named miss But who is one

13:19

of the five children of the devil. And

13:22

that comes from a very particular story.

13:27

don't know if it would necessarily be called a folk

13:29

tail per se. I don't know if that's accurate, but it is

13:31

from a particular myth amongst,

13:35

like, Muslim countries. Of

13:37

this story of it

13:39

least the devil and his five sons.

13:42

And so there's, like, this story of, like, he has

13:44

five children and they all have a different, like,

13:46

domain that they're responsible for

13:49

and things like that. And so, Ms. Butte is one

13:51

of the five children from that story. Mhmm.

13:54

And his domain in the story

13:56

is like lies, that he's the devil

13:58

of lies. And so, miss Smith, the character that

14:01

I play is that. I'm playing, like,

14:03

a demon who is whose domain is lies.

14:05

And so MiFID can like, it's basically

14:07

just a walking lie detector as well as part

14:09

of it, like you can tell, would be are lying to

14:12

to him and when they're not, when

14:14

they're telling the truth. And

14:16

as part of that, the GM Chris

14:19

has been really great in sort of

14:21

bringing in at least, like, the

14:23

devil as like father figure and then

14:25

also creating all of the other children

14:28

as well. So I have four siblings in that game

14:30

who are the other children of the devil,

14:32

and that's been, like, part of the drama of

14:34

the game is that they all, like, as well

14:36

and have their own -- Fascinating. -- motivations. Yeah.

14:38

So it's been really fun to sort of, like, bring

14:41

in, like, these specific mythologies from,

14:43

like, different cultures and different experiences

14:46

that we have as players and to sort

14:48

of like invent them into the narratives that

14:50

we're that we're telling. I

14:53

I want an entire adventuring party

14:55

to be the children of the devils. I

14:57

think

14:59

that's such a cool that's such a cool

15:00

hook. I love it. That

15:02

would be really cool. Somebody should do that.

15:04

Yeah. Oh. I

15:07

love this idea. I think a

15:09

lot of times especially

15:12

new people will have a harder time thinking

15:14

about their character's backstory

15:16

or it can be overwhelming to come up

15:18

with those ideas, but, like, really

15:20

ideas are everywhere. They're, like, in the books

15:23

that you're reading and the shows that you're watching

15:25

and, like, you're saying some focalore

15:28

from different cultures, but also I

15:30

know that people would want to to

15:33

be sensitive if they are trying

15:35

to pull in some other

15:37

cultural references outside of their own. So

15:39

do you have tips on how

15:41

best to approach that

15:43

that kind of thing at a table? If if you

15:46

were someone who's inspired by other

15:48

other cultures and wanted to maybe

15:50

use some of that with your character or

15:52

story. Yeah. I think the

15:55

first thing that I always would

15:57

recommend is for people to, like, start inward

15:59

before you, like, start looking outward because

16:02

I think that there are so many really

16:04

really cool stories and myths in

16:06

every single culture and, you know, whatever

16:09

yours specific background is, I guarantee

16:11

you there's there's a wealth

16:13

of of stories, a folk or of mythologies

16:16

that you can pull from characters, from

16:18

stories that you can draw from

16:20

for inspiration. And I think it can

16:23

be, especially for people

16:25

of color, you know, when

16:28

our narratives are not necessarily always

16:31

being told or not, like, given necessarily

16:34

the same space to be explored.

16:36

It can be really powerful,

16:39

I think, to be connecting with

16:42

those stories and to sort of find that

16:46

that inspiration

16:48

and to sort of delve

16:51

into the history of the

16:53

different cultures that we come from. So I

16:55

I would personally recommend, like, look

16:57

inward first before you go outward, but

17:00

once you've done that and you are sort of looking

17:02

out into other cultures, especially as a GM

17:04

where, you know, you might be facilitating

17:07

a narrative for people from other cultures

17:10

that you don't necessarily come from. I

17:12

think that the best thing

17:14

to do for that is to always

17:17

defer to other people that actually

17:19

have lived experience. So, you know, asking

17:21

other people, like, hey, like, what are best

17:24

practices for telling this kind of

17:26

story? Or what are some things

17:28

to avoid? You know, doing your research like

17:31

going out and reading documents,

17:33

articles, texts, watching

17:35

videos that, like, other people have put out

17:37

about this kind of thing. Because there is

17:40

such a wealth of resources

17:42

that exists. Now, thankfully, on the Internet,

17:45

one of the good things about having

17:47

that is that there is, like, a lot people

17:49

have talked about kind of thing already. And there's

17:51

so much that you can draw on and so much that you can

17:53

both grab. I think when it comes

17:56

to, like, doing an act actual play,

17:58

which I think is very different from like a home game.

18:00

Right? When you're doing an actual play, it becomes

18:02

like an actual show, it becomes a production,

18:04

and I think there's greater level of

18:06

responsibility as storytellers when

18:08

we are putting out,

18:11

like, a show, like a piece of art or something

18:13

like that. And I think at that

18:15

point that I would, you know, start to consider,

18:17

like, do you need a sensitivity consultant?

18:19

Do you need multiple stivity consultants depending

18:22

on the content that you're pulling

18:24

in from. At that point, you know,

18:26

I would start to get into more of like the professional

18:28

kind of considerations of like, If

18:31

you have budget for it, like, maybe it would

18:33

be worth bringing in somebody who

18:35

like does this for a living

18:37

and would be able to sort of help you

18:39

navigate. What is

18:41

appropriate and what is not appropriate in handling

18:44

content from cultures that are not your own.

18:48

And love all listening. Right? That's

18:50

that's I think an important

18:52

aspect there is that, you know, have

18:54

these input from from

18:56

other people and and and take take the

18:58

notes?

18:59

Yeah. Yeah. Don't just don't just

19:01

have them say it and then not do anything about

19:03

it. Obviously, implementing the advice that you're

19:06

being given.

19:06

Yeah. Right. I I think there's there's I

19:09

I've encountered some people. I'd be like, well, I had I had

19:11

someone and I just ignored what

19:13

they said because it wasn't my story or wasn't

19:15

the way I wanted to go and you're like, that's Well,

19:17

that defeats the purpose. Exactly. Well

19:20

as, like, it's just not a good Dungeon Master

19:24

way to be. Right? You want to listen and

19:28

you know, making sure everyone at the table

19:30

is comfortable and excited about

19:32

the story that you're telling. Mhmm. Mhmm.

19:34

Yeah. So I wanna follow-up on one thing you were just

19:36

saying about these

19:38

tabletop actual plays, and it goes into

19:41

what I was saying earlier. I'm like, yeah, there's just this

19:43

this wealth of people who

19:45

are creating them. And I began with

19:47

this idea like, oh, well, wouldn't it be fun, you

19:50

know, to play in front of an audience

19:52

and that, you know, the technology

19:55

kind of finally came caught up with the community's

19:57

desire to do that type of thing. But you're

19:59

talking about something which is is taking

20:02

that and turning it into a show, turning it into

20:04

a piece of art that's similar to

20:07

theater and and and other forms

20:09

of show business. And you're right. That does

20:11

shift the perspective

20:13

of both the artists. I guess you

20:15

have to call the artists now, the players in GM involved

20:18

and the audience in that relationship.

20:20

So that's that's really interesting place that we're in

20:23

now as this this medium starts

20:25

to mature.

20:26

Mhmm. Yeah. I think there's like a range

20:28

of actual plays

20:30

that currently exist in this space. You

20:33

know, we have actual plays that

20:35

are designed to just be, like like

20:37

you said, just like people playing in front of a camera and

20:39

it's not meant to be anything more than that. It's

20:41

friends at a table, you know, we're all just kind of

20:43

having a good time. We're here. We're playing and it's

20:46

as raw, quote unquote, as

20:49

possible so that people can sort

20:51

of see that. And then we have, I think, like, some

20:53

actual plays that are designed to be, like,

20:55

advertising for the games that they're playing. So they're

20:57

here to, like, teach you how to play. They're here to,

20:59

like, show you, like, what you can do with

21:01

the system and, like, what kind of stories are

21:04

possible to tell with the system. And they're very

21:06

much, think, meant to be a

21:08

a way to get

21:10

new players sort of involved into it and to

21:12

say like, hey, like, this could be something that you're into.

21:14

And then I think something that is a little bit

21:17

newer from my understanding in

21:19

this space in the industry is, as

21:21

you were saying, like, actual plays as theater,

21:23

as like an art form as a show.

21:26

And that is, I think, something that we as

21:30

performers as creators are still

21:32

experimenting with, which is really exciting, I

21:34

think, really, because It's

21:37

such a new way of doing

21:40

storytelling. It's such a new medium that

21:42

there's a lot of possibilities that we haven't

21:45

board yet. And I think that there

21:47

is so much fertile ground, so much, like,

21:49

rich possibilities within that. And

21:51

I'm genuinely really excited to see

21:54

every time a new actual play comes out, like, cool.

21:57

Okay. Like, what's the new thing that people are doing with

21:59

this one? Like, what is the way in which they are

22:01

kind of experimenting with this? And

22:04

kind of, like, taking the things that we like from

22:06

each actual play and then, like, putting

22:08

them together into, like, a freaking stride of a new

22:11

actual play in the future. I think

22:13

it's genuinely really really exciting.

22:15

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your producing

22:17

work that kind of is lending itself

22:19

to what you're talking about. So what

22:22

what what is your role? First of all, what

22:24

is your role as a producer for

22:27

for the actual player for a live stream?

22:30

Is that where? Yeah. I think

22:32

the word people use it

22:34

in very different ways. So that's that's a fair

22:36

question. You know, absolutely. When

22:39

I say that I am a producer of

22:41

actual plays, what I mean is that

22:44

I kind of the I'm an executive producer and

22:46

creative director. Is essentially if you're

22:48

gonna use like film terminology, that

22:50

would be sort of the space that I exist

22:52

in. So that means that I come up with

22:54

the concepts for shows. I will

22:57

do testing, I will, you know,

22:59

look for sponsors and acquire,

23:01

like, the funds necessary to pay everyone

23:03

involved. I will hire, like,

23:05

you know, the the crew that is involved,

23:08

so the people that will do marketing, that will

23:10

do graphic design, etcetera. And

23:12

then depending on what it is, I may or may not

23:14

be involved in the actual show itself.

23:16

So I might play. I might not. If I'm just

23:18

purely producing, then I'm not gonna be in it.

23:21

But sometimes I

23:23

sort of do a dual role of like producing the

23:25

show and then also playing in it. So

23:27

it's kind of like project managing and

23:30

everything, kind of like getting the getting

23:32

the ball rolling. Organizing

23:35

everything.

23:35

Producer is such a catchall

23:38

term, but

23:38

-- Yeah. -- III I've used it when

23:40

I'm trying to describe it to other people. It's just

23:42

like, you're the driving force. You're the person

23:45

who is making the thing. And that

23:47

could be different for each project. And it is

23:49

different for each project, but it really is like,

23:51

okay, who's the who's the person

23:53

who, if they weren't pushing this

23:55

rock, would roll back down the hill?

23:57

Yeah. And I mean, there's oftentimes multiple

23:59

producers that are involved in a project as well.

24:01

So One that I'm actually working

24:03

on right now that I'm super, super excited

24:05

about, that at the

24:08

time of this episode

24:10

being

24:10

released, we will have announced. Oh,

24:12

so I will talk about it.

24:14

I love it. We're time traveling. Yeah. Yeah.

24:17

Let's go into the future. I

24:20

am producing a role sponsored

24:23

one shot with Josephine

24:25

Kim with scary at scary dog friend. And

24:29

so for that, Joe and I are working very closely

24:32

to make that into a

24:34

reality, and it's a project called Goodia.

24:37

Which is a redo slash Hindi

24:39

term for doll. And

24:42

it is a though ethos

24:44

of that one shot of that show

24:46

is very much that it is meant to be

24:48

an experiment. It is meant to be a

24:52

just playing around with actual

24:54

plays and what are the possibilities of actual

24:56

plays, specifically with regards

24:58

to the visual aspect of it. Because

25:01

right now, you know, I've been

25:03

in a lot of conversations with performers

25:05

and viewers in the actual

25:08

play space. And I think the general

25:10

sort of main consensus is

25:12

that actual plays are something that you,

25:14

like, listen to, but aren't necessarily something

25:17

you watch. Like, there there's not a

25:19

whole lot that you lose from not watching

25:21

the actual play. Oftentimes, you can kinda just,

25:23

like, put it on a second screen. It can be background

25:25

while you do, like, other stuff and you can listen to

25:27

it. Which is great.

25:29

But that really means that even when we have

25:32

visual components to actual place that they're basically

25:34

functioning like podcasts. Right? Where it's

25:36

just the audio component that's important, And

25:38

it makes me wonder like, well,

25:41

how can we play with their visuals? Because we have visuals.

25:44

So how can we play around with that and make

25:46

it so that watching an actual play is

25:48

actually part of the experience that there is

25:50

something that is lost as

25:53

part of the narrative, as part of the storytelling,

25:56

if you're not watching it and you're just listening

25:58

to it. I kind of liken it to like a movie.

26:00

Right? Where it's like you could listen to a movie.

26:02

But by not watching it, there is there's

26:05

visual metaphors, there's like visual storytelling,

26:07

there's something that is being lost through that

26:09

process. And so how can we maybe

26:11

port some of that some

26:14

of those principles into actual place.

26:16

Like, is that something that we can do? And

26:18

so good idea is a project is kind of experimenting

26:20

with that is kind of looking at, like, okay. How

26:23

can we make the the

26:26

overlays and, like, the different ways in which we

26:28

are visually presenting this show

26:30

actually important or actually compelling

26:32

in some

26:33

way. Oh, that's fascinating. Like, if

26:35

there was some type of storytelling element

26:37

that was happening based on what

26:39

was said, I'm spitballing

26:41

here, but, like, if there were eyes that glowed red

26:43

when someone was lying or something like that. Right?

26:46

Or or when the GM was telling something that was

26:48

supposed to be true or something

26:50

like that. But, you know, yeah, there's so

26:52

many fun ways that you can play with that. Now,

26:54

also, you mentioned the doll

26:57

what if there was a creepy doll on the back?

26:59

Someone shot that you had, like, worked together with

27:01

their partner or something like that to, like, put it in the halfway

27:04

through and then they didn't even know it was there and then you

27:06

you as a GM gotta be like, oh, right. That doll's right

27:08

behind

27:08

you. I'm thinking of horrible things. Yeah.

27:11

Yeah. I think

27:11

these are about a greedy doll, Chris.

27:14

As soon as

27:15

you said dolls, like, ugh, like, I don't want

27:17

you. But it could just be, like, a lovely

27:19

doll because

27:21

it could be nice doll. It doesn't have to be creepy

27:23

one.

27:23

I will say that this this one shot is a

27:25

horror one shot. Okay.

27:27

We

27:27

we are we are yeah. That was the correct

27:29

one. For it. Yeah.

27:32

No. Those are some really, really cool ideas.

27:34

And I think that we have to acknowledge that, of

27:36

course, this means

27:39

I think that this will translate

27:41

differently for live streams versus, like, prerecorded

27:43

content. Like, it would be so much harder to

27:45

do this live, obviously. Right? Because you don't

27:47

know what's gonna

27:48

happen, you know, at tabletop, are

27:50

improv and you

27:53

don't know what visual elements you might need, right,

27:55

when you're playing. You can try your best to plan

27:58

for it, but ultimately, there is an element

28:00

of surprise there, whereas I think something like this

28:02

is maybe a little bit more conducive to

28:05

actual plays that are prerecorded, and

28:07

therefore, you have the option to

28:09

sort of go and then edit stuff in in

28:11

post and to, you know, you have the

28:14

benefit of hindsight of knowing, okay, cool. Like, this

28:16

is what happened in the narrative and then

28:18

you can think about how can we

28:20

elevate that storytelling with

28:22

the visuals of

28:23

it. But not

28:25

everybody is doing prerecorded content. So

28:27

obviously, that doesn't necessarily translate

28:30

for everybody. It

28:31

could it could be done with live production, but you would need

28:34

you know, to scale up your production to be able to

28:36

do that. Right? I'm thinking of the few ones

28:38

that have been able to do it have

28:40

done it with you know, casts

28:42

of of of dozens and then, you know,

28:44

more than dozens behind the scenes to be able pull

28:47

off that type of stuff. And you're

28:49

you're talking about little bit more on the the

28:51

static one webcam in front of

28:53

a monitor is a new thing. But I want

28:55

yeah. That's I love being able to bring some of those

28:57

principles from from theater to

29:01

Yeah. More more line plays. Yeah. And that's

29:03

an interesting thing too. I wanted to ask too because you keep you're

29:05

using the term actual plays, which people have

29:07

been used for a long time to describe I

29:10

guess, let's play this is what people used to describe

29:12

YouTube videos that were pre

29:14

streaming, that were all about, like, just watch people

29:16

play through a video game. And then

29:18

I've I've used a live play even if

29:21

it's not live because usually

29:23

involved a live component. But yeah,

29:25

part of it being a new medium and

29:27

a new way of talking about is that we have to

29:29

settle on the terms and the

29:31

things that of what what it

29:33

means. So, yeah, why does actual play kind

29:35

of work for you in in your understanding of

29:37

of that definition? It's

29:39

the term that I, like, was introduced to

29:42

the format to live plays, actual plays, whenever

29:44

you wanna call them. That was the term I was introduced

29:47

to when I first sort of discovered

29:49

that this was a thing. And it's just

29:51

kinda stuck. It's just the term that I've, like, heard

29:53

everybody using and the

29:55

one that think

29:58

just by principle of,

30:00

like, convenience is the one that sort

30:02

of, like, makes sense in the space.

30:05

For me, if I'm sort of thinking about it, like, why

30:07

actual play? I think the

30:09

principle or the idea behind it anyway is

30:11

that you are actually playing the game

30:13

versus it being like a script. Did things.

30:15

So differentiating between using

30:18

a table top as a medium

30:22

to produce like an audio drama,

30:24

which could be possible, which is something that people

30:26

can do. And I think some people might already be doing

30:28

as well versus, like,

30:30

an actually playing the game and

30:32

it actually being improv.

30:35

So I think that might be where that term comes

30:38

from. Don't quote on that though. That is

30:40

just my investment.

30:40

That's your understanding of it too, guys. Understanding

30:43

of

30:43

it. Yeah. Even as you're describing it, I'm like, well, we have

30:45

had game shows for a long time,

30:47

which -- Mhmm. -- are prerecorded, but

30:49

there is the, you know, the idea

30:51

that someone is actually playing jeopardy in

30:53

the real time that we're watching it. Right?

30:56

But those are called, you know, that term game show

30:58

stuck. We never used that in

31:01

in our in our streaming

31:02

space, and then improv is another one because

31:04

basically what we're talking about is improv. Right? Which

31:06

is

31:06

-- Yeah. -- usually has AAA

31:10

comedic definition

31:13

associated with improv even though it in

31:15

broth could be anything. Right? So, yeah, there's there's

31:17

terms that are

31:18

there, but are borrowed by other genres

31:21

a little bit. So I kinda

31:23

think that's how actual plays,

31:25

like, are really. Right? Like, that that

31:27

in and of itself, I think, is a microcosm of

31:29

the fact that actual plays To

31:31

me anyway, do feel like a Frankenstein of

31:33

so many other mediums and so many other

31:35

forms of like storytelling. The

31:38

way that we sort of built them. Like, we take principles

31:41

from, like you said, like, from improv theater,

31:43

regardless of genre, whether that's comedic improv,

31:45

dramatic, improv, whatever, what have you.

31:48

We borrow elements from there. We borrow

31:51

elements from cinema, from

31:53

theater, you know,

31:55

from even from like books, I've seen

31:57

people take inspiration from the way that you would

31:59

like write a novel to to create their

32:02

world plays. And so in a way, I think

32:04

the genre really is this.

32:07

As I as I said, like a Frankenstein of

32:09

so many other forms of storytelling,

32:11

and it comes through in the language

32:14

that we use as well. And that sort

32:16

of part of it right now too is that we don't necessarily

32:18

have very clear.

32:21

We haven't agreed as sort of a community

32:24

or as an industry about what

32:26

language we even Hamnah use to describe these

32:29

shows. Right? And I think that that is

32:31

just sort of part of the fact that it is so new,

32:33

and we are still all sort of experimenting and

32:35

kind of playing around with it, which

32:37

is exciting and

32:39

also I think sometimes confusing as well.

32:42

Right. We use sort of the same term

32:44

to mean different things. Part of that

32:46

is because it's so new. And then also, you but

32:48

you're working on a a project

32:51

that will yeah.

32:53

I'd love to to hear about it. I I don't wanna

32:55

speak for you. But, like, the idea of describing

32:57

this as an art

32:57

form, what what is that project? Is it is it a book

32:59

of some kind or or yeah.

33:03

So it is a actual play. It is a one

33:05

shot. I am being

33:07

purposefully vague about

33:10

the details of it. I was I was going on

33:12

there because I was gonna ask about your academic

33:15

career as well. And I wonder if there was

33:17

something that was was tied to

33:18

that. You're talking about the awesome

33:21

doll themed

33:23

one. Howard Bauchner: Yes. Yes. That

33:26

is a separate project

33:28

that is not related to the

33:30

sort of academic side of things that

33:32

I do. But on

33:34

sort of the academic side of things. I

33:37

have been working on

33:40

any kind of I'm ongoing working

33:42

on a You can call it

33:44

like a research study. I'm working on an on

33:46

an article basically that is looking at the

33:48

possibility of using table top

33:50

games. Regardless of whether

33:52

they're, like, shows or not. So even, like, home games

33:54

count in this case, using tabletop

33:56

games as a way to allow people to

33:59

practice using what I what

34:01

call it, what like activists called the radical

34:04

imagination. So it's this

34:06

idea that In

34:08

order to be able to bring about positive

34:10

change into the world, however you want to define

34:13

positive change, you have to first be

34:15

able to imagine that world before you can

34:17

actually do anything to bring it about.

34:19

So for example, if

34:21

we are thinking about a world in which

34:25

like homophobia and transphobia doesn't exist,

34:27

a world in which queer trans folks

34:29

are allowed and able to just

34:31

exist and to do so safely and to, you

34:33

know, live like joyous

34:36

full lives. We have diverse people to

34:38

imagine that world before we can actually

34:41

do anything tangibly. In

34:43

our lives to make that a reality.

34:46

Right? Because we need something to work towards. That's

34:48

sort of the principle behind the radical imagination.

34:50

And I think that can often

34:52

become something that's really hard for

34:54

people to do because we are steeped

34:57

in so much of you

35:00

know, quote unquote, like like society,

35:02

TM. Right? Like, we we live

35:05

and breathe the air of

35:07

all of these structures that tell

35:09

us that this is how, like, the world is and this

35:11

is how it has to be. And so it can be really, really

35:13

hard to imagine something different

35:16

And so part of my one

35:18

of the research studies that I'm working on is looking

35:20

at, but what if we were able to use table

35:22

tops to help people practice? Doing

35:25

that. Because in tabletops, we're allowed

35:27

to just suspend disbelief. We're allowed to say,

35:29

you know what? This isn't yeah. Exactly.

35:31

We're allowed to say, like, hey, you know what? This isn't

35:33

how the world is. But that's fine.

35:35

Like, we've created this this space where

35:38

we can say, yeah, we're gonna imagine

35:40

a world in which, like, dragons

35:42

are real. So, like, why can't we also

35:44

imagine a world in which,

35:46

like, Transphobia doesn't exist right?

35:48

Like, we willingly, like, just give

35:50

in to the idea of, like, of course, lightning

35:52

bolts come out of my

35:53

fingers. Like, yes. Yeah.

35:56

So, yeah, why couldn't you Yeah.

35:59

And I think, like, TransPlanar is a really,

36:01

really good example of that where the

36:04

world of Endache that Connie has created

36:06

and the story that we've all agreed tell

36:08

as as performers for

36:10

transplaner is, like yeah. Like, Transfigure,

36:14

racism, like, homophobia, None

36:16

of that exists. And, like, you'll notice that

36:19

if you watch the second stranger, the the

36:21

campaign on transplanar, all

36:23

of the drama, all of the conflict, that

36:25

is in this story is driven

36:27

by everything else. It's driven by

36:29

the characters. It's driven by interpersonal conflict.

36:32

It's driven by The fact

36:34

that there's an apocalypse happening, like

36:37

it's driven by magical forces. It's

36:39

it's driven by all of these other things

36:42

and none of the conflict, none

36:44

of drama comes from any

36:46

sort of big entry at all. Like, none of the characters

36:48

experience like,

36:51

people being discriminatory

36:53

towards them for any reason. And

36:56

I think that that is something

36:58

that we have actively chosen

37:01

to do as, like, part of the cast.

37:03

And that was very important to Connie when world

37:05

building as well. And I think

37:07

it just shows that, like, yeah, like,

37:10

we we can still have, like, a,

37:12

we can still have a good narrative that doesn't

37:14

utilize these things. Because I think sometimes that's

37:16

becomes the counterargument is, like, oh,

37:18

but, like, how can I have conflict if, like, there isn't

37:21

a system to fight

37:23

against and it's, like, Well, this is asking

37:26

us, okay? But, like, let's get creative with it. Like, what

37:28

are sources of conflict that aren't that? Like, what

37:30

are ways in which we can tell those stories?

37:32

And so, a, it forces us to be a little bit

37:34

more creative, I think, when we create stories.

37:36

But b, it

37:39

just also, like, makes us

37:41

feel at least for myself, like, makes

37:43

me feel like safe and empowered as

37:45

a person at this table to

37:47

know

37:47

that, yeah, this worlds,

37:49

like, is not going to hurt me in that way.

37:52

It

37:52

will hurt me in other ways because there

37:54

are some dragons. There are some dragons.

37:56

You know, there is still a heartache and heartbreak

37:59

in this show. It is very very sad,

38:02

but it won't hurt

38:04

me in that and I think that is a very empowering

38:06

space to play it and to exist

38:09

in. That's important. I I've been saying

38:11

on this podcast for the last couple of months that, like,

38:15

playing these games is a net good

38:17

for humanity. And I

38:20

didn't have any academic things

38:22

to back that up. But now with this research paper,

38:24

I actually will. I'll be like, there is, you

38:27

know, the opinions of least

38:29

some academics out there that this

38:31

can be a force for for for

38:33

positive change in our world. And

38:35

I as you were describing all that, I kept thinking

38:37

of how many times everybody's

38:39

experiences where you're younger

38:41

and more excited about changing the world and making

38:43

better place and some older persons

38:46

as well. That's just not how the way the world works.

38:48

Right. And you're like, but why not? And

38:50

this is this is the perfect

38:53

way to show, like, there is the possibility

38:55

for for for positive

38:57

change. And that's -- Mhmm. -- you know,

38:59

history has actually shown that. It's actually, you

39:01

know, been able to to

39:04

to improve somewhat people's

39:06

lives

39:07

by having this this

39:10

stream and this vision.

39:12

Howard Bauchner: Yeah, and I think, like,

39:14

the more that we practice doing that, the

39:16

more that we practice, you know, even if it's in a

39:18

game, even if it's in a tabletop, the more that we practice

39:22

asking ourselves, like, what if this thing we

39:24

took for granted was a real? Like, what are the alternatives?

39:27

Like, what are some other ways that we could do

39:29

things? And, you know,

39:31

like, you can expand that out

39:33

to so many different areas of life

39:36

where you can

39:36

say, like, hey, like, here's this thing that we take for granted

39:38

in real life. Let's play with that. Let's say, like, okay, what

39:40

if that was a real? Like

39:42

Yeah. What else could we do?

39:44

I think that the more that we practice

39:47

that not just alone, but with

39:49

other people. The easier

39:51

it becomes to do, and I think the easier it

39:53

becomes to translate that skill

39:56

into real life, into outside of

39:58

the game. I think it just makes us

40:00

more creative problem solvers as well

40:02

just in general. And so I do

40:04

genuinely believe there is a lot

40:06

of potential within tabletop

40:08

games to do good and to help people

40:13

bring about positive change in real life, which

40:15

to someone who maybe doesn't play, you know, table tennis,

40:17

like, might sound silly where they're like, but you're just like

40:20

sitting around the table, like pretending to be these

40:22

like other characters. And,

40:24

you know, I just think that art

40:26

and games like playing, like

40:30

theater, etcetera. Like, I think these

40:32

things have power to them.

40:34

They have the ability to

40:37

they have the they have the ability to give us

40:39

permission to go to

40:41

places that we don't normally allow ourselves to

40:43

go in real life because we have

40:45

agreed

40:46

as a table as a group that those

40:49

rules don't apply. And

40:51

I think that is a really beautiful

40:53

thing and is a very powerful thing

40:55

that the play space lets

40:57

us do. Absolutely. Yeah. This so

41:01

back to the the concept of radical

41:04

imagination, which is almost like manifesting.

41:06

The world that you want

41:08

to see and exist in and live in, but how

41:11

do you turn that into

41:13

action? Like, how what would be the next step

41:15

is, like, this world that

41:17

we can imagine. Like, how can we start

41:19

enacting to make this reality

41:22

to change? That's a really great

41:23

question. And I think I

41:25

think, honestly, that is so

41:28

dependent on what exactly we're talking about

41:30

and, like, what problem we're trying

41:32

to tackle and who is trying to tackle

41:34

it and to what end. So

41:37

for example, you know, one

41:39

one thing that I think about is when

41:41

we consider the just the

41:43

negative effects that, like, policing has had

41:45

on various marginalized communities. You

41:48

know, one of the

41:50

key, like, counter arguments

41:52

that I hear all the time where people will

41:54

say is, oh, well, you know,

41:57

how can we have a safe community without

41:59

a police presence? Like, how is that even possible?

42:01

Anything, tabletops can be a really interesting

42:04

way and a really powerful way to

42:06

imagine, like, what are ways that we as communities

42:08

can keep each other safe? That doesn't involve, you

42:10

know, a police force. What

42:12

does that even look like? And I think the

42:15

exciting thing for me is that we will

42:17

all come up with very different answers for that, right,

42:19

depending on what we think is important

42:22

for safety and depending

42:24

on even our communities, because different communities have

42:26

different needs, have different the desires

42:28

for for themselves. And so I

42:31

think, honestly, like, depending

42:33

on what it is, the action

42:35

will look different. So it might look like,

42:39

you know, starting a mutual aid network.

42:41

You know? It might be like, okay. Cool. We've recognized

42:44

that there is a lack of money that

42:46

is sort of there's

42:48

financial strain on the community, and

42:50

we recognize that if we pool our resources, then

42:52

we can sort of at least temporarily

42:56

help fix that. Cool. You might start a

42:58

mutual aid network or you

43:00

might go and, I don't know, create a

43:02

scene, you know, a love making sense. You might create

43:04

a scene to raise awareness about something or to educate

43:06

people about something that

43:09

you recognize like maybe there's not a lot of resources

43:11

about this. Thing that people, you know,

43:13

have talked about. You can make a scene of, like,

43:16

here's all of the different potential ideas that

43:18

we have of, like, ways to keep their

43:20

neighborhood safe that don't involve policing.

43:23

And then you could, like, put that out there, and

43:25

that will help you to get other people thinking about

43:27

the possibilities. Or you

43:29

might, I don't know, you know,

43:31

like, sort of on the low

43:33

barrier to entry side, like start a petition

43:35

or, you know, like, go creates

43:40

like a phone app where you all get

43:42

together one day and it's like an hour

43:44

and you just like call relevant,

43:46

like, politicians or something, and you all inundate

43:48

them with phone calls at the same time. You

43:50

know, there's like a lot of different -- Yeah. -- the the VoIP. There's

43:53

so many different ways to sort of print things

43:55

action and it super depends I think on

43:57

what you collectively agree is

43:59

the most effective way of sort of moving

44:01

forward with the ideas that

44:03

you've created.

44:05

Yeah. I like the parallels of what you're saying

44:08

there to artwork

44:10

created in the fifties and sixties.

44:12

That were around, you know, specific

44:15

issues. Right? Like racial

44:17

and quality and, you know, against,

44:19

like, are you occupying Vietnam

44:21

and things like that. But like there there was this

44:23

group of people mostly musicians, you

44:26

know, some other things, but they didn't

44:28

necessarily take the

44:30

activist steps that you were just talking about, but

44:32

they've created the art around it that allowed

44:34

people to change their perspective and

44:37

push others into potentially being those

44:39

activists. So in some ways, you're talking about,

44:41

like, the artists need to dream

44:45

the dream put it out there.

44:47

And then there are other people with

44:49

other skill sets who can take up that dream and try to

44:51

make it a reality. And some and sometimes those

44:53

two groups can be you know, some sense

44:56

of the other. But in general, I love what

44:58

we were talking about. We're just like, we just need to get the ideas

45:00

out there so that they can

45:02

germinate into something, you know, maybe not

45:04

even now, maybe twenty years from now similar

45:06

to how, you know, many of those

45:08

pieces artwork didn't necessarily change anything right

45:11

then. But they might have changed perspectives,

45:14

you know, decades later

45:16

that we're feeling

45:17

now. Yes, I love the

45:19

idea of, like, a d and d

45:21

game as the new PowerPoint. Like,

45:23

I could, like, show you on my slides.

45:26

But you know what? No. Let's

45:28

get in this world. Let's experience this

45:30

world. Let's immerse ourselves in it. And you can

45:32

really see, but it's all about. No more

45:34

power points for

45:35

me. I'm done. Alright. All

45:37

my reasons are now Maybe it's

45:39

gonna be a game. Maybe

45:41

you say that though because, like, no

45:44

That is sort of my goal with the

45:46

end of, like, this research study

45:48

is to create a functionally

45:50

like a workshop, which is really just -- Yeah.

45:53

-- really just a one shot. That

45:56

allows people to do that. To do what you described,

45:58

Shahid, of, like, yeah. Like, let's immerse ourselves in this

46:00

world. Let's actually play with these principles and see what

46:02

that feels can see --

46:03

Yeah. -- what ideas come out. That that is

46:05

the goal at the end of the day. I can see it. As

46:07

researchers As you're talking about it, I'm like,

46:09

yes. This is this is the new

46:11

way to think about it. The virtual

46:13

reality. I have a friend. This is

46:16

just a quick random story, but I had a friend.

46:18

We we as a group we were getting into board games

46:20

recently, and she

46:24

is an activist as well. And she was like, oh, I kick started

46:26

this board game. It's all about social change

46:28

and and and how to get those ideas across.

46:31

We played it. And,

46:33

unfortunately, it's just not a very compelling

46:35

board game. It's a very good

46:38

like, teaching tool. You know,

46:40

like, I feel like, oh, yeah. Yeah. This allowed some

46:43

some empathy to to get in.

46:45

But I kept thinking, like, this would be so much better

46:47

as a role playing game. This would get the

46:49

ideas across so much better if

46:51

you were having to make choices not based

46:53

on whether or not you would win in

46:57

in a in a very linear kind of almost

46:59

life style board game.

47:01

I was like, but if you if you were able to get

47:03

these ideas across with having people embody

47:05

these characters who come from different backgrounds,

47:07

I just feel like that would have been a

47:09

much more illustrative experience.

47:12

And that's exactly what you're talking about. Right? So Yeah.

47:15

I

47:15

I love putting yourself in it. That's the

47:17

thing that I think is powerful. Right? It's the

47:20

it's the actually, like you said, embodying the

47:22

principle and being asked

47:24

to just put everything else aside

47:26

and say, okay. But, like, what if we just

47:28

played where this was true

47:30

and you believed that in character.

47:33

Like, what would you do? How would you act?

47:35

What would you think? I think that the

47:38

being in that space

47:40

fully is the powerful part I think because

47:42

it kinda like tricks our brains, right, to sort of

47:44

be in that space. And that kind of

47:46

goes into related to, like,

47:48

safety conversations about, like,

47:50

roleplaying where can't

47:52

remember who said this, but somebody

47:55

said that, like, your brain can't tell

47:57

the difference between that role playing and it

47:59

can real life. Mhmm. So this

48:01

idea that, like, when something really

48:03

particularly, like, negative happens in a game,

48:06

like, oftentimes the reason that we have bleed

48:08

is because our brains kind of get tricked to bleed, like,

48:10

oh, it's happening to me. I feel unsafe right now.

48:13

Even if, you know, you are fine. And that's

48:15

why we have, like, safety tools, decompression,

48:17

etcetera, to help sort of mitigate the negative

48:19

effects of, you know, playing out things that

48:21

are very difficult. But I think we can use

48:23

that on the flip side as well of, like,

48:26

Okay. Let's put

48:28

ourselves into spaces where we

48:31

are hopeful about the future. We are hopeful about

48:33

change. We are hopeful about all

48:35

of these possibilities. And, you know,

48:37

our brains can't tell the difference. And

48:39

so I think that would be that

48:43

leveraging sort of the ways in which

48:45

cognition kind of functions in that way. I

48:47

think it's a very powerful

48:49

tool. That is really powerful because it's also

48:51

I mean, just going back to the competitive board game,

48:53

trying to do the same thing, Monopoly

48:56

was created as way to lampoon

48:59

and poke fun at landlords and how

49:01

terrible they are. But I played

49:03

it in the, you know, and I didn't get that

49:05

message until much later

49:07

when I started to red properties

49:10

on my own. I'm like, oh, yeah. Landlords do suck. This

49:12

is terrible. Right? But, like,

49:14

we're we're so much tuned into the winning. And

49:16

I think that's another component where

49:19

there is no winning in D

49:21

and D. It's it's you win

49:23

by working together as a as a as a team to

49:25

complete the story. But that's not winning.

49:27

You're just doing it as as a

49:30

community goal, which think is so much

49:32

more important in wholesome to

49:35

the actual change that you're talking about versus

49:37

framing it always in the you

49:39

know, III got Boardwalk. So now,

49:41

you you know, you're you're bankrupt. You

49:43

want a beauty pageant. You

49:44

want a beauty pageant? Twenty five

49:46

dollars for you.

49:49

Yeah. Hundred percent. I think the

49:51

fact that there is like a narrative

49:53

that you're supposed to be telling, and

49:55

that's really just the goal is to just tell

49:57

a story together.

49:59

I think that is important

50:01

to this for sure? Absolutely.

50:04

So you we only have a couple minutes left, but I did

50:06

want to, you know, talk

50:09

little bit about how your,

50:13

you know, identity and and you were

50:15

talking about your cultural identity, but then also like

50:17

how trans people can

50:20

experience these games. And

50:22

I'd love to, you know, yeah, hear anything about your experience

50:25

as far as how roleplaying

50:27

games helped shape that? Or or or,

50:30

you know, enriched your

50:32

lived experience

50:33

through roleplaying in that way? For

50:35

sure. I am

50:38

a, like, queer agender, Boscanti

50:40

person, and so I

50:42

operate or I live on sort

50:45

of the axes of multiple marginalized identities.

50:47

And for me, being

50:49

at tables with other people who have

50:52

the same or very similar lived experiences

50:54

has been honestly like

50:57

a breath of fresh air. It's so

50:59

nice to be able to sit together and

51:01

to explore narratives

51:04

together that we don't

51:06

necessarily have to do, like, a lot of heavy lifting

51:08

in terms of explaining stuff to each other.

51:10

Like, For a transplaner, like,

51:13

translator is so heavily a

51:15

very queer and trans story. There

51:17

is no way around it. Because everybody

51:20

on that cast is queer and trans.

51:22

And so when

51:24

we tell those stories together, like,

51:27

the complicated drama, the interpersonal conflicts,

51:30

the romance, the everything that

51:32

is in that, the the story

51:35

about love, the story about the power

51:37

of love and what it can do for us

51:39

as individuals and as a community.

51:42

Inherently, the way in which we tell that story

51:44

is informed by our

51:47

identities as queer trans people, and

51:50

for me personally, like, my character on transpainer,

51:52

or on other, is an exploration of

51:54

that. Is an exploration of

51:57

what does it mean to love somebody so deeply

51:59

that you end up,

52:01

like, hurting the people that you love because you

52:04

are so focused on this idea of

52:06

helping them, of loving them, of keeping them safe, they

52:09

are unable to see sort of all of the other factors

52:11

of it? And how do you get lost in that? And then

52:13

what is the redemption Redemptive factor

52:15

in that? How do you fall

52:18

from grace in that way and then how do

52:20

you allow the people that you've hurt to

52:22

love you in such a way as to redeem you --

52:24

Mhmm. -- to do better by them. And

52:26

I and I don't think that I could have explored

52:28

that story with any

52:30

other table. Like, I really do think that that

52:33

needed to be at

52:35

that particular table in that particular space

52:37

to be able to really tell that story. And

52:41

for me, just being

52:43

being in these spaces with other people that,

52:46

like, really understand my lived

52:48

experiences not only allows me to, I think,

52:50

go places in, you know, tabletop games

52:53

that I wouldn't necessarily otherwise feel comfortable

52:55

going to, but it also just helps

52:57

me feel seen Right? Mhmm. Like, when

52:59

other people are telling stories

53:02

or making decisions in character or, you know,

53:05

that I am not involved with, but

53:07

are informed by very similar experiences

53:09

that we have. You know, like, I feel very seen

53:11

by that and, like, there's a sense of camaraderie

53:14

in that And, like,

53:17

I I don't think that that

53:20

kind of experience is just,

53:23

like, describeable. I don't I don't know how

53:25

to describe sort of the very, like,

53:28

comforting, like, like,

53:30

breath of fresh air, like relief feeling

53:33

that I get from being in that

53:35

space with other people. It really really is priceless.

53:38

And I know that we like, I know

53:40

that people sometimes joke about sort of the low hanging

53:42

fruit of representation, but I really do think

53:44

that there is something special about seeing

53:46

yourself represented in a in a story,

53:48

in a character. Especially

53:51

if that is not something that you have experienced

53:53

before or have not experienced very often before.

53:55

It is a very powerful experience to be

53:58

like, yeah. No. Like, the thing that I

54:00

go through, other people also go through it

54:01

and, like, other people also have similar feelings

54:04

and similar thoughts.

54:06

Yeah. And just to know that you're part of a community

54:09

really is is

54:12

so so absolutely amazing.

54:14

And I'm thinking of the the trans

54:16

people who are listening and and paying attention to

54:19

this as well too. Right? Like, you've got that community

54:21

there and then it it has halo

54:23

effect on every person

54:25

who is who's interacting with this, whether

54:28

they're trans or not. Even what we're talking about

54:30

are people who who are able to walk and feel and

54:32

and empathy of of that

54:34

lived experience and realize that, you know,

54:36

it's certainly very unique,

54:39

but it's also not as we

54:41

were saying it, you know, many many people feel heartbreak.

54:43

Many people feel all these things and it's it's a

54:45

way to be like, oh, there's there's more that unites

54:48

us than than

54:49

than makes us different. And I think that's really important.

54:53

Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And the

54:55

community that you're building around

54:58

all of these different the group

55:01

in the actual place, like the transplanar community

55:04

is huge and it's a wonderful

55:06

safe place for other people who

55:09

or sharing those lived experiences. So that's,

55:12

you know, it's wonderful

55:14

to see yourself represented, but then to also

55:16

find that community where you can also

55:19

feel represented and secure. It's

55:21

like the radical imagination. Right.

55:24

That's that's what you're you're creating

55:26

there. But we all get to watch

55:28

and we all get to see it unfold.

55:30

Yeah, I've been very lucky to

55:33

get to have met and

55:35

watch and work with and be

55:37

friends with so many wonderful

55:40

wonderful creators and performers in the

55:42

tabletop industry, honestly, A

55:44

lot of them are, like, some of my absolute

55:46

closest friends now, and it I

55:49

do not think that I would be

55:53

in the place that I am, like, in a very positive

55:55

way, I don't think I would be in the place that I am had

55:57

I not met a lot of these people. And so I really

55:59

do have tabletop

56:02

role playing games, but specifically the actual

56:04

play industry, to thank for

56:06

that. And as, you know,

56:08

as many problems as there exist

56:10

in the industry as they do with all industries. I

56:13

think that there is still the

56:15

optimistic side of me anyway likes to focus

56:17

on the fact that there is a very rich

56:22

wealth of communities that exists

56:24

in this space, and it's just a matter of

56:26

finding the communities that

56:29

you resonate with that that,

56:31

you know, speak to your values, speak to who you

56:33

are as a person and making connections

56:35

there because, like, I I've

56:38

been so so lucky to be able to do that.

56:40

And I I want other people to

56:42

feel similarly as well, honestly

56:44

being a part of a community is

56:47

a bone for so many elements

56:49

in life, you know, feeling connection is

56:52

so important. Definitely.

56:54

Well, it's and it sounds like the work you're doing

56:57

is going to make that possible for

56:59

more people. So we are lucky

57:01

to have you.

57:03

That's so kind to me to say. Yeah.

57:05

That's true. I'm excited about yeah. Right? Like the

57:07

fact that you're pushing the boundaries of what this is

57:09

is as an art form, as well as

57:12

you know, forging these communities and

57:14

being that representation for so many

57:16

people out there like it's

57:18

wonderful. And I wanna know when

57:20

that research paper is done. So

57:22

Me too.

57:22

That's a citing citation and every

57:25

drug you talk at the same go trial. You

57:27

know.

57:30

So awesome. Well, you mentioned these

57:32

shows later on, but I'll give you a chance to do so

57:34

again and get people who

57:37

are listening here

57:38

know, the opportunity to start following

57:40

along and whichever one makes sense for them.

57:43

Yeah. So hello, everybody.

57:46

My name is Hamnah use any and all

57:48

pronouns. And as I mentioned, I am

57:50

a table top performer and producer. You

57:53

can find me on Twitter at underscore

57:56

where I talk about all of the different projects I'm a part

57:58

of. I'm on a lot of different APs as

58:00

I mentioned. And so Twitter is the best

58:02

place to know where I am at any given point

58:04

in time. I would like

58:06

to specifically shout out in Goodia,

58:09

our very experimental one

58:11

shot that is coming out. If you keep an eye

58:14

on the nameless domain Twitter page,

58:16

you will see some very

58:18

interesting content coming out,

58:20

leading up to the show. Trust me, you're not

58:22

gonna wanna miss

58:23

it. So That is nameless domain

58:25

on Twitter. Nice.

58:28

Domain that shall remain nameless. I

58:33

love it. Well, thanks so much. I'm known for being on

58:35

and and talking about this. We can't wait to

58:37

to to have you back on and talk about this

58:39

research paper. Thank you so much

58:41

for having me. Yeah. Yeah. I am super super

58:44

stoked. What

58:47

a fan? Oh my god. Fascinating conversation with

58:49

Hamna, there is so much there to

58:52

unpack. Right? I know. I was like

58:54

I really kinda like getting into

58:56

the producer weeds too. It's fascinating.

58:59

I know right now. I had more questions. So

59:02

I guess they'll just have to come

59:04

back. They will. It's true. And producer is

59:06

such a great role. It's catch all.

59:09

I mean, I meant it when I said it's like it's the person

59:11

who keeps things moving on a project

59:13

and that is something I think we

59:15

need better

59:17

teaching for in all of our disciplines.

59:19

Like, every everybody needs a producer in

59:21

their lives.

59:22

I that would be amazing. Right?

59:24

Yes. I

59:25

would need

59:25

to post it notes and just make

59:27

them happen. Please. As

59:30

long as they don't get into any scrums, we should

59:32

be okay. Oh, yeah.

59:34

Scrum free producing.

59:39

We have enjoyed having

59:41

Ryan Mars as producer as well as

59:43

Lisa Carr. So shout out to them on

59:46

this day alone. Years

59:49

of working together, and it's gonna be

59:52

eight

59:52

more. I think going forward?

59:54

Yes. Until Fiona and Quinn

59:56

take over this podcast.

59:58

True. We'll hand it down to them

1:00:01

like we are hereditary.

1:00:05

This is yours, idiots.

1:00:07

I dubbed the Seroquine. Of

1:00:10

the Dragon Dog table.

1:00:12

Quinn would be like, oh, yeah.

1:00:14

My remember when my parents used to force me

1:00:16

to play D and D. Remember that? Right.

1:00:20

And then -- Yeah. -- they would then play pennywise

1:00:22

and scare each other with lots of

1:00:24

high pitched screaming. Oh, gosh.

1:00:26

Yes. I can That's not podcast

1:00:28

that anybody wants to listen to. Except

1:00:31

for them. Except for the screaming

1:00:33

kids podcast. Alright.

1:00:35

Well, you can find out all of that and all

1:00:37

of our other projects online.

1:00:40

You can find me at Greg Tito on

1:00:43

Twitter. I am also on

1:00:45

Mastodon and Hive

1:00:49

and Cohost. Under all those things

1:00:51

as well as Greg underscore tito

1:00:53

on Instagram.

1:00:54

Much more simple for me, I am at ShellyMo

1:00:56

on Twitter and Instagram. So

1:00:59

come on over

1:01:00

there. And

1:01:00

you've got that cool author website that I

1:01:03

am looking at longingly.

1:01:05

Really? I need to You visiting

1:01:06

my website. I have been visiting your website.

1:01:08

Shelley massinople dot com. Is that

1:01:10

website? Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:13

I should do some updating over

1:01:15

there.

1:01:15

Now I've ilted you into it. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:18

But, you know, there's a, those

1:01:21

posts go deep though, like

1:01:23

way back in

1:01:24

time. So you can read some some

1:01:26

real early works.

1:01:28

That's exciting. Right? A lot of them about,

1:01:30

you know, parent d and d and all

1:01:32

that noise.

1:01:33

A lot about d and d too. Oh,

1:01:35

gosh. It does go back, Steve, because think

1:01:37

I had it When

1:01:40

my first book came out and that

1:01:41

was, like, two thousand and seven.

1:01:44

Like, before there even was

1:01:46

Internet. In

1:01:51

the before to

1:01:52

It was just No. I mean, that's of two

1:01:54

thousand seven, which I'm pretty sure there were it wasn't

1:01:56

in the back end. But Those

1:01:58

knew this one probably weren't even alive. So

1:02:00

No. I was just a a

1:02:03

child. Yeah. Right.

1:02:05

You were, like, twenty years

1:02:06

old, but you were, like We

1:02:06

baby just trying to make a a

1:02:08

website happen. It was probably, like,

1:02:11

today in fourth grade, my

1:02:13

friend, that's something

1:02:15

really mean to me.

1:02:19

I love that we've kept this going for as long as

1:02:21

we have.

1:02:22

I will continue. For

1:02:25

forever. Speaking of continuing, dressy

1:02:27

two shoes is walking

1:02:30

through The gradient set it out

1:02:32

on her way to meet

1:02:34

with the final,

1:02:37

the third to backseat individual that

1:02:39

is still on the Radiant Citadel. You've

1:02:42

recruited Jonathan, Matt

1:02:44

Samson, as well as Altia, A0A

1:02:47

woman, Drowsy.

1:02:50

Yes. With very

1:02:52

nice white and light

1:02:55

brown fur. Very, very

1:02:57

attractive. Yes. And

1:03:00

you guys were joking around about what was

1:03:03

in your wine skin. It might be

1:03:05

bathtub, wine. And

1:03:10

you had a quite a bit of a long walk

1:03:12

because Altia

1:03:14

knows of a older

1:03:17

tobacco woman who kind of lived by herself

1:03:19

and she's taking you to the hutt

1:03:22

that she found one day, she was

1:03:24

explaining this to She was like, yeah, I was walking around the

1:03:26

city one day, and saw this this old woman

1:03:29

who is just sweeping

1:03:32

her stoop with a makeshift

1:03:34

broom that looked like it was made out of some

1:03:37

type of, you know, fur very

1:03:39

hastily bound to a

1:03:41

stick. It was very

1:03:43

homemade looking at this tool. And and

1:03:45

as I looked at this woman, I I realized that she

1:03:47

was like me. She was a tobacco

1:03:49

we're going to find

1:03:49

her. Yeah. I'm going I I think she's

1:03:52

still at that hut. I I hope she is anyway.

1:03:53

Did you talk to her? She was very

1:03:56

rude. She didn't want to engage

1:03:58

with me. She just grunted

1:04:01

at me when I tried to say hi and

1:04:03

be friendly. Very different

1:04:05

than you who have been quite so open and

1:04:08

wanting to speak with me and stroking my paw

1:04:10

as as we've been walking all this

1:04:12

time. It's very different from you. Oh, I

1:04:14

appreciate that. She's obviously not

1:04:17

a fan of the hooch like I

1:04:19

am. You know what I mean?

1:04:21

think we can loosen her up a little. Some

1:04:24

of my bathtub gin. Maybe.

1:04:26

Maybe. Who

1:04:26

knows? Maybe that's why she was disgruntled

1:04:29

that day. But I never went back. Hopefully,

1:04:31

she's still around. That was a a few years ago.

1:04:33

K. Well, I'm excited. So you

1:04:35

make your way through the city

1:04:38

further there is

1:04:41

a general hubbub of

1:04:43

commerce and things that are going on, but

1:04:45

then you eventually turn a corner

1:04:47

and get to a more residential

1:04:50

street that goes to

1:04:53

the west of the Aurora

1:04:55

Diamond. And she

1:04:58

makes another turn and another turn and then

1:05:00

it seems like you're in a an

1:05:02

alleyway and the

1:05:05

stars and twisting

1:05:08

necker that is on the outside of

1:05:12

this citadel is right in front

1:05:14

of you. It's actually really

1:05:16

disconcerting.

1:05:18

And even Jonathan says, like, what?

1:05:20

I'm not near the edge very often. Yeah,

1:05:22

this is weird. Fortunately,

1:05:25

as a tobacco, I am very agile,

1:05:27

but very nervous.

1:05:29

And Samsung says, are you

1:05:31

sure there's no danger of us being

1:05:33

pulled off of this floating sitting?

1:05:35

Yeah. What's the whole gravity situation

1:05:38

up here. Altia says, well,

1:05:40

no, everything's fine. You're not gonna have to float off

1:05:43

into nothing. That's not a good idea. Do

1:05:45

people fall off of this thing though? Every

1:05:48

once in a while, there is a tragic accident

1:05:50

with a child

1:05:52

or someone who gets too close to the edge awful.

1:05:55

But from birth, everyone on this

1:05:58

citadel is taught not to get as close

1:06:00

to the edges, you know. That's why it's

1:06:02

Usually, the domiciles that are disclosed

1:06:06

are not inhabited.

1:06:08

Most of the people trying to live closer to the

1:06:10

oral diamond. I don't like

1:06:12

this. I I maybe had

1:06:15

maybe an, like, slightly

1:06:17

more to drink at lunch than I should have.

1:06:19

I didn't know I was gonna be tight rope walking

1:06:22

on a crystal. You're not I mean,

1:06:24

you guys are on a on a

1:06:25

street. It's not it's not you're getting closer

1:06:27

to it now. It's like the backyards of some of these places

1:06:29

might actually get to that edge. And there are no

1:06:31

parks or things like that

1:06:32

where, hey, a stray ball might fall into it.

1:06:35

That would be crazy since Jonathan. It's

1:06:37

kind of freaking chunky out though. That

1:06:40

is understood. A lot has changed

1:06:43

in your world perspective over the last

1:06:45

few days. Yeah. So you make it to this hot

1:06:48

and you see it

1:06:50

is a small, you know,

1:06:53

maybe fifteen feet

1:06:55

by fifteen feet fast

1:06:57

cut with a roof made

1:07:00

of reeds and grass

1:07:02

woven together. And

1:07:05

the materials of

1:07:07

the walls appear to be some

1:07:09

type of wood, but there's lots of scratch marks

1:07:11

all around them. So it looks like it might

1:07:13

have been scavenged or put

1:07:16

together from from another source. It does

1:07:18

look like it's made with materials that

1:07:20

were created simply for for building. And

1:07:23

the solid wooden door

1:07:26

is closed. It's not

1:07:28

painted. It's just a

1:07:30

plain wooden door with, you know, planks.

1:07:33

And a

1:07:35

latch, middle wire and latch

1:07:37

keeping it close. Okay.

1:07:40

This I saw this woman here. She was here outside

1:07:43

this front stoop, but it it

1:07:45

looks like the door's closed. I'm just gonna

1:07:47

go knock. Okay. So you go up and

1:07:50

knock on the door.

1:07:51

Yep. And here.

1:07:54

There is there's no immediate answer.

1:07:57

Knock knock knock. You

1:07:59

knock again? Yes. You

1:08:02

hear a woman's voice say,

1:08:04

go away. Don't

1:08:06

want any mama. What?

1:08:09

Mama.

1:08:12

Mama. And you hear a compliment.

1:08:14

Love a compliment. Love

1:08:18

a compliment. A lot of grunting. You're

1:08:23

hearing all this coming from the

1:08:25

door. The

1:08:28

latch very reluctantly opens

1:08:30

and the door Just a few

1:08:33

inches, you see eyes with a

1:08:36

face of a tibaxi, almost

1:08:38

all the fur is white. With

1:08:41

a few flakes of

1:08:43

of gray

1:08:43

hair, the blackish hairs. What

1:08:46

do you want? Mama. Who's

1:08:49

mama? You? I

1:08:53

eat your mama. My

1:08:57

bad. Hi, my name is Trunkie Tewshoes.

1:08:59

I Hamnah a visitor from a different plane,

1:09:02

and I believe that you have some information about

1:09:05

my brother and possibly

1:09:07

my entire family. Okay. She

1:09:12

says alright. Come in.

1:09:14

Oh, these are my friends, Johnny. Just

1:09:16

you. Sam.

1:09:17

Get in here. And she yeah. She

1:09:20

she asked you to come in. Okay.

1:09:22

here,

1:09:23

guys. You go in and she

1:09:25

closes the door and latches it. Can

1:09:27

we leave that unlocked?

1:09:28

There was no lock to begin with, lady. You

1:09:30

latched it.

1:09:31

Yeah. It's a latch, it's not lock. Anyway,

1:09:34

why am I dealing with imbecile here?

1:09:36

Wow. Do you like to

1:09:38

drink? Well, if you don't

1:09:40

drink, you die. So yeah, I'd like drink.

1:09:42

We are definitely related.

1:09:45

I take out my water skin. Do you have

1:09:47

a

1:09:47

glass? Never had much use for it myself.

1:09:50

Oh, not a fan of sharing bottle.

1:09:53

You offered if you don't wanna share, I had no skin

1:09:55

off my

1:09:56

I mean, I if you had a glass, I would be happy

1:09:58

to pour some into your glass. I

1:10:00

don't like She looks around. And you actually kinda

1:10:02

see her her interior is

1:10:05

extremely bare. She's

1:10:07

got a table. And

1:10:10

there is a lot of

1:10:12

refuse kind of strewn about

1:10:14

almost looks like there's no

1:10:16

different rooms. It's just like a one room. She doesn't really

1:10:18

have much of a kitchen. It's just

1:10:20

a small fire in the hearth

1:10:23

and

1:10:24

Okay. Alright. Alright.

1:10:26

Alright. Alright. I'll

1:10:29

take out I'll take out my mess

1:10:31

kit, which I have in my equipment.

1:10:33

And I take out a bowl and

1:10:35

I pour some into the bowl. And

1:10:39

I actually will

1:10:41

give her the water

1:10:43

skin that has more in

1:10:45

it, and I will just drink out of this

1:10:47

shallow little bowl like a big kitty cat

1:10:49

that I am.

1:10:50

Okay. She takes the wine stand and snips

1:10:53

it. Mhmm.

1:10:56

Smells terrible. And she

1:10:58

drinks a big swig of it. Wow.

1:11:00

Whoa. Right? It's mighty

1:11:02

powerful. It does.

1:11:04

You made this? Yeah. Alright.

1:11:07

I can make more. You're hired.

1:11:10

What do you know about the the two shoes

1:11:13

family? And

1:11:17

we'll end there.

1:11:19

With a big size, a

1:11:21

big size. She looks at you. She kinda she's,

1:11:23

like, kind of, you know, she was in that mode of

1:11:25

enjoying what you had offered and

1:11:27

and when she looks at you. She pods

1:11:29

is kind of mid when you say two shoes and

1:11:32

takes that big sign. We will

1:11:34

come back. Alright.

1:11:38

Like it. I wasn't really like

1:11:40

it. This is definitely my mom when you're like Last

1:11:42

name mom.

1:11:45

We shall see.