0:06

Welcome

0:06

to Dragon

0:08

Talk.

0:08

Yay! This

0:13

is the official Dungeons and Dragons

0:15

podcast. I am Greg Tito. That is

0:18

Shelly Mother, Nobody. Hi.

0:21

Making things happen over there. Very

0:23

excited for this episode of

0:25

Dragon Talk. because we get to talk

0:28

to Dair Hickman, an

0:30

amazing TTRPG player,

0:33

game designer, writer, perhaps

0:36

best known for their role on

0:38

Transplaner. So very excited to talk

0:40

to them.

0:41

Yeah, also they have some

0:43

very cool games that I do hope that

0:46

we get to discuss, games that they designed.

0:48

So how cool.

0:49

We will get all those and

0:51

figure it all out. That's awesome. What

0:55

is happening in the D&D world? I mean, you gotta

0:58

give a shout out to Dungeons and Dragons,

1:00

the movie. Oh my gosh. We

1:02

just, as of this recording, we found

1:05

out that it's a hit. People like

1:07

it. It's the number one movie in the world.

1:08

It's the number one movie in the whole

1:10

world. You know when D&D

1:13

has done something huge because

1:15

my dad starts sending me news articles

1:17

about it. Like, did you hear this?

1:20

Breaking news, not sure if you're aware.

1:23

There's a D&D movie and it's quite good. Did

1:26

he send you the clipping from USA Today? Okay,

1:30

so what Greg is referring to is an article

1:32

in USA Today in which Greg and I were

1:34

quoted talking

1:37

about how like, hey, I've seen

1:39

the movie, I wanna get into Dungeons and Dragons

1:41

now. Greg being the master

1:43

PR, what person

1:46

that he is,

1:47

like worked our book into

1:49

this conversation and he actually like name

1:52

checked it. So was super excited

1:54

about that, he being the author,

1:57

the writer of that article. But-

1:58

Brian. sent that

2:01

link to my dad

2:03

and like crickets heard

2:06

nothing while excuse

2:08

me grief me it's

2:10

almost like you're not

2:12

like her book

2:15

ah or even

2:17

this podcast that name but i'm

2:19

he was aghast on and is still talks

2:21

about it still think that he's really

2:24

famous now super famous so

2:27

anyway that was exciting

2:29

that yeah know the article itself and

2:32

people out there are getting in to playing dd

2:34

i think from watching the movie and seeing

2:36

how fun and yeah are

2:39

not serious

2:41

or even though he was eerily as there's emotions

2:43

there's all these things happening within the

2:46

film which i think is a

2:48

great amalgam of everything that makes this game

2:50

great

2:50

idea i do like our conversation

2:53

that we had with jeremy i'm it

2:57

really nailed to like of the essence

2:59

of what we love about the

3:01

indie fart dry and heartstrings

3:04

know how easy to do ah

3:07

i'm i just

3:09

loved her i did i went back again

3:11

saw the second time part got to see

3:13

it and he was i looked over at

3:15

him a few times and he just held that the

3:18

on like smile on his face and dispatching

3:20

and smiling like that's a good sign and

3:22

at one point quinn leaned over to me

3:24

and said is

3:25

this movie almost over

3:28

was like oh god

3:30

really the flick forty

3:32

minutes and kid and i said no it's not

3:34

and he goes good

3:37

because

3:37

i love it doesn't to all

3:40

how sweet stream from the mouth

3:43

the bear you know he was a

3:45

nike it held his interest that held

3:47

us to friends interest i'm so

3:50

very that's a good sign

3:53

that's a good litmus test or it is because it i

3:55

love it cements i can't wait to i'm

3:57

gonna watch it again can

3:58

you imagine that him and his friends really

4:00

loved the character of Simon, the

4:02

sorcerer. Yeah, Simon

4:05

is the character that resonated the most

4:07

with nine-year-old boys. And

4:10

my hairdresser. So it's

4:13

not a uncommon

4:15

thing that we're hearing from folks.

4:17

First of all, can we discuss that you have

4:20

a hairdresser? The

4:22

person who cut it that way on purpose. Yeah, the

4:24

person who cut my hair. She loved

4:26

it and said that she had to... And Simon?

4:29

Yeah, she said she really loved Simon and

4:32

Doric as well, the Druid, but

4:34

really loved Simon and thought it was a very relatable

4:37

imposter syndrome-y kind of

4:40

arc that it was him holding him back this whole

4:42

time, not his ancestor.

4:45

Spoiler alert for the D&D movie. Go

4:48

check it out. Anyway, lots

4:50

of other things that you'll

4:52

discover that we're not gonna spoil.

4:55

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Oh,

4:58

good stuff. Good stuff there. Yeah,

5:02

and I hope you're all digging it and

5:04

spreading the word, getting more people out there to go see

5:07

it. And then

5:09

taking your friends who may be excited about

5:11

D&D

5:12

and getting their excitement and transcending

5:14

it into a game. And

5:17

we have tons of resources for you to be able to

5:19

do that.

5:20

PlayD&D.com is a good place to

5:22

start.

5:23

get some of the free content

5:25

that is available on D&D Beyond, including the

5:27

character sheets for the party

5:30

in the

5:31

movie. And you're off and running.

5:35

Rebel's End, you can even play in

5:37

breaking somebody out of that prison

5:39

that's in the center. You can do your own little Jarnathan

5:42

heist out the window if you want.

5:44

You know, Jarnathan also seems to

5:46

be one of the breakout stars of that movie. Totally.

5:50

People definitely love Jarnathan. There's

5:52

something about a callback, right? The fact that

5:55

even in the exposition storyline that

5:57

Edgan is going through in the beginning that he keeps going

5:59

back. back to you're really great at

6:02

jarnathan with you to hear this part of the story.

6:05

I don't, sorry, I don't know if I can continue

6:07

without jarnathan. I

6:10

totally paced that wrong,

6:12

but whatever. I'm not a professional like Chris Pine.

6:15

I mean, I think you're more of a professional like Chris

6:17

Pine. Well, you know what, I have something

6:19

in common with Chris Pine. The outfits? Our

6:22

outfits are similar. We both like a high-waisted

6:25

pant. But also,

6:29

we are both very passionate about getting D&D in schools. That's

6:33

right. I

6:36

have seen him out there that quote in many articles about

6:38

how much he thinks that D&D should

6:40

be played in schools and how it's such a great learning

6:42

tool and a teaching tool. And

6:45

every time I read it, I want to say, it is in schools,

6:47

sort of. We're getting it.

6:49

new

6:55

fresh new curriculum out there. So if you go

6:58

to ymiclassroom.com

7:00

slash d,

7:02

d, not d and d, just d, d. And

7:05

you can, or Dunkin

7:07

Donuts.

7:08

Oh yeah, for the Northeasterners out there.

7:12

You can find some really

7:14

fun activities that

7:17

you can just give to your kids to do. It doesn't

7:19

have to be in class. It's

7:21

all about puzzles and mazes and

7:25

solving some cool little riddles.

7:27

So I actually used some of it in

7:30

my D&D club.

7:30

Oh, nice. Yep.

7:33

And they enjoyed it. Turns

7:35

out kids like puzzles. Kids

7:38

like everything about D&D as it turns out, which

7:40

is fantastic. And

7:43

we would love to hear more about

7:46

your experiences going to the D&D

7:48

movie, getting people into playing D&D

7:51

and getting the youths on

7:53

board with playing more

7:55

as we do more Dragon

7:58

Talk episodes. So let's talk to. Darrick

8:00

Hickman, just as a note, we recorded this

8:02

episode a little while ago. So,

8:05

right? Or is this before

8:07

times? I don't really remember. It might have only

8:10

been like two weeks. I don't know how time works

8:12

because I've been caught in a time stop

8:16

spell for quite a while. But give

8:18

a listen and you'll

8:21

find out lots of ways to get inspired about D&D.

8:24

It's only been a week. It's only been a week.

8:26

It's only been a week, but yeah, it does feel

8:28

like a long time. Time

8:31

has passed. But also no time at all. Let's

8:36

welcome Dere Hekimin to

8:37

Dragon's

8:43

Ar of

8:56

octaves there. Well, we're really excited to

8:58

chat with you. You are a

9:01

game designer, a TTRPG

9:03

performer. You're on Transplaner with a lot of

9:05

other wonderful folks that we have spoken to

9:07

on DragonTalk. How are you doing?

9:10

Good. Yeah,

9:13

no, I just, I reduced

9:15

just to talking about myself as an entity because

9:18

it's easier at this point. What

9:20

have I done? What haven't I done? I'm just

9:22

around. Oh.

9:26

I exist. I'm a person. It's like you've

9:28

always been here. Yeah. Exactly. I'm

9:30

a primordial entity in the tabletop space. I

9:33

like it. One of the old gods.

9:36

But yeah, how did

9:38

you get started playing D&D,

9:41

playing tabletop RPGs? That's always a really eye-opening

9:44

tale to tell.

9:46

It's always funny because

9:49

growing up, I was always the kid who was like, ah, I'm

9:51

very nerdy. I have a big video game,

9:53

kid.

9:54

I'll never do D&D. I'll never end up on

9:56

tables, like playing table tops. but

9:59

I'm also a liar. historically. So

10:02

you're great at D&D. Yes.

10:05

As liked. Yes, the make believe. So

10:08

like I ended up going to college with

10:11

and like met a bunch of my like college best friends. And

10:14

they're like, hey, we're doing this. I was like, sure, I'll give it a try

10:16

because why not? And

10:18

like I my first character was just like a

10:20

wholesale of reference to like community like

10:23

on ironically, because I love that show. made

10:26

a half elf which just looked like me with one elf

10:29

here. This is my... I didn't care

10:33

to design. I didn't know her yet. I didn't care.

10:35

It was very goofy. And

10:39

from that point, I got really captivated. I also

10:42

started listening to things like the Adventure Zone,

10:45

which really made me care more about it as a

10:47

storytelling medium. It's

10:49

my first tattoo. the audience who can't

10:51

see this, but I have a Bureau

10:54

of Balance tattoo. And

10:56

from there,

10:57

I just got more into actually wanting

11:00

to tell bigger stories and be involved

11:02

in bigger stories. And

11:04

it's been a ton of fun until about 2020

11:07

is when I actually started hitting the streaming

11:09

space. I did a couple

11:11

of charity events and stuff,

11:13

and just really liked, I don't

11:15

know, putting my voice out there in this way and

11:18

just kind of kept going from there honestly. That's

11:22

amazing. So what was it about the

11:24

streaming space that you found

11:27

appealing? Like you said, I like to put my voice out

11:29

there, but was there something about the people you were

11:31

playing with or the way that you were playing or knowing

11:33

that an audience was listening

11:36

and watching? I think it

11:38

was a mix of that desire

11:40

to... I've

11:41

always wanted to be an artist. I've always been in

11:44

an artsy kid, like

11:46

I'm a musician as well. So

11:49

like I've always liked putting the things

11:51

I make out into the world, but also knowing

11:53

that like, there's not a lot of,

11:56

I don't know, like, Like

11:58

I am a black cramp. the woman i

12:01

am also at pretty like unique

12:03

looking and sounding in a way that i think

12:06

for a lot of people that kind of important

12:08

to see in these spaces

12:10

i i always i've always

12:13

made stuff with the sort of idea of

12:15

like hopefully there's someone out there

12:17

who looks like me or who needs

12:19

this sort of like encouragement to make

12:21

something because i think like one

12:23

of the most human things we can do is

12:25

create things and like

12:28

even if it's just a silly game with friends

12:30

i think it's really important to like let

12:33

your voice be heard in these ways and

12:35

like that has been might driving forces

12:37

like i want to make weird arts so hopefully

12:39

someone else sees this weird are in this like

12:42

inspired

12:42

by

12:43

i love that to that such the a as

12:46

you said a very important human characteristic

12:48

re if you're not expressing

12:50

yourself for for creative

12:52

folks because there are there are folks who aren't as

12:54

creative out there but i think

12:57

for if you fall into that camp it's

12:59

it's that need to get that oh yeah voice

13:01

out there more than anything else yeah and even

13:03

for people i think who aren't creative like even

13:06

if it's just something like painting

13:08

or just like anything that's just

13:11

even the monday and sort of creativity like

13:13

i'm going to name my lunch today than

13:15

ah i believe it might even the

13:17

most mundane for expression being really

13:19

important and like even

13:22

if it's like i'm don't consider

13:24

myself an artist i work you know nine

13:27

to five and once a week maybe

13:29

i'll play a little dmd with some friends but

13:31

still super important in terms of like expression

13:34

so even them if you're out here

13:37

and you haven't played anything in a while play

13:39

a game of fun yeah

13:41

than up yes create that thing

13:43

and i will watch and lot of basketball it's be

13:45

ignored march madness is going on here and

13:47

seeing a lot of young people in

13:50

the arena is right in there is

13:52

the band there's the cheerleaders there's

13:54

the people who paint their faces and

13:56

part of is like you know you're all just paying

13:59

the in the here

14:00

You're all using your different

14:02

disciplines and interests to

14:07

create something, even though it is around this

14:09

sporting event that we're watching. There is still an expression

14:12

there, even in people that we would call quote

14:14

unquote jocks, right? Yeah, even like,

14:17

because I'm a sports fan as well. My

14:19

sport of choice is pro wrestling. But

14:22

like- Right. It's more of

14:24

a show than it is a sport. They

14:26

are very much athletes. It

14:29

is the common

14:30

man's theater. But

14:33

like, I think... I smell what you're cooking. A

14:37

lot of crossover there with D&D

14:39

and wrestling as well. Oh, truly. But

14:42

yeah, like that expression

14:44

of like even fandom, even in sports

14:47

as fandom, if you haven't heard that before, I'm sorry, sports

14:49

fans, it's a fandom. Totally.

14:51

There's nothing wrong with that. And I think

14:53

like expressing yourself even through the interest of like, like,

14:56

oh, it's football or anything else is still

14:58

super important.

15:00

Um, like I also was

15:02

a big football kid. I used to watch it with my dad a lot. So

15:04

like, it's important. I like it. I

15:07

am both the nerd and the jock here. I,

15:09

I will say this openly. Yes.

15:11

I love that. And you

15:13

definitely see more of that these days

15:15

that I think people feel very comfortable in

15:18

both spaces. But

15:20

sports for sure are

15:22

a good

15:24

parallel with D&D, which we've talked

15:27

about here before. Fantasy

15:30

sports? You

15:32

guys are role-playing. You're

15:35

not a commissioner of a baseball

15:38

league. I know.

15:41

Especially in a game with a fantasy GM mode

15:43

where it's like, you're just doing

15:45

management and fantasy management. management. And that's

15:48

great. That's so much fun.

15:50

It's just, it's still fantasy. We're letting

15:52

the pretend numbers roll. It literally

15:54

is in the name. It's called fantasy.

15:58

It's not even hiding. I played in a fan...

16:00

to see baseball league before with

16:02

like very mainstream, like people who were

16:04

like, would never even watch Game of Thrones.

16:07

Like they're just like, no, they're just sports

16:09

fans. And they were all creating

16:11

logos for their teams. And I'm like,

16:13

well, you guys are like, one of them even made up their

16:15

own t-shirt. Like you're cosplaying

16:18

now

16:18

as your team. This is the expression I want to see, perfect.

16:21

And I, yes, I love like fully immersed

16:23

in this, like sending emails to

16:26

each other, like in the voice of like

16:28

the GM of the lead or like the commissioner

16:31

was like coming down on us and like they

16:34

were so fully immersed in it but

16:36

they had no idea that they were actually

16:38

role-playing. It's all about

16:39

perspective, honestly. I love

16:41

stuff like that, truly. Yeah.

16:44

Where you going for your fantasy team? I think

16:46

I'm gonna pick Atreyu this round but

16:50

maybe I'll go with Aowin if Atreyu was already

16:52

taken. Always got drips

16:55

on the cards, Gotta keep him on there. Well,

16:57

he's like a number one. He's gonna go too fast. Oh, yeah,

17:00

I have to fight for him every time, but it's worth it.

17:02

I'll take Wolfgar, I guess.

17:04

I'll take Tasha. Going

17:09

for the archmage. Yes, always,

17:11

always go for the magic. So

17:14

you mentioned that your first character

17:17

was a female-presenting

17:19

character, right? A femme-presenting character. No,

17:22

this is back in my boy era. I

17:26

love to talk about pre-transition life as my

17:28

boy era because I got over it.

17:30

No, my first character was just like

17:33

me mask presenting with

17:35

a just an elf ear, one singular

17:37

elf ear as a half elf because I thought that

17:39

was very funny at the time. But

17:42

like over the course of like playing, especially

17:45

in the world of tabletop or like D&D,

17:47

namely elves. I deeply

17:50

all about elves for most of like for

17:52

the first few years, especially around transitioning.

17:55

There was something I really loved about the like perceived

17:58

androgyny of that.

18:00

And like sort of even

18:02

like there's a prettiness and a beauty to

18:04

even the most like traditionally masculine elves

18:07

and like finding something really beautiful

18:09

and powerful about that type of expression.

18:12

So as I slowly like

18:15

started going like, oh, this person uses like he

18:17

they pronouns and getting more and

18:19

more like femme with my presentation

18:21

of characters to what I finally

18:23

like transitioned a few years into playing.

18:25

I think it was

18:27

gosh, it's been a while 2019 2018. somewhere

18:30

in there, that's where I transitioned. And

18:33

then started playing more femme, coded

18:35

in more women, player, or characters.

18:39

Especially GMing also did a lot to help with that

18:41

too, since I, in my home games

18:43

perma GM, getting to express with

18:45

femininity in those ways really,

18:48

helped open the doors for me to, I don't

18:50

know, examine and unpack my own

18:52

sense of self in a way that I

18:55

generally don't think I would have been as far as long without

18:57

tabletops. So what is

18:59

it that you found, what

19:03

made the space comfortable for you to explore

19:06

these different sides? For

19:09

me, I like my home game groups,

19:12

definitely. My

19:15

players from my home game are all some

19:18

form of queer,

19:21

whether most of my table is trans and then

19:24

everyone on the table is somewhere on

19:26

the LGBTQ spectrum. So that is a space

19:28

that gives

19:31

you, I think, a lot of freedom

19:33

to try something and experiment.

19:36

I think one of my first characters that was trans, he was

19:39

a trans mask, but we had two

19:41

characters that are identical twins and one was a girl

19:43

and one was a boy. I was like, well, examining

19:46

that one of these characters is pretty

19:47

categorically trans in some way.

19:50

And getting to play with that was the first time I like

19:52

experienced or played with transness in

19:55

a meaningful capacity and and then getting

19:57

like

19:58

having that sort of support, having that. that

20:00

both the experience of people who

20:03

were openly trans when I was still considering

20:05

and figuring everything out definitely

20:07

gave me the sort of space and grace to have

20:10

the

20:11

realizations

20:14

and really try things

20:16

with my own character creation, which

20:18

of course made me go, why do you care

20:20

so much about playing girls in this

20:22

way? Or why is it really important

20:25

for you to have to be a girl or have this

20:27

level of femininity? And then I eventually

20:29

got hit with the big hammer of, oh,

20:31

that's why. That's

20:36

great because it's the, it's not

20:39

necessarily experimentation, but it is the idea that like

20:41

you get to try it on, right? Like it's

20:43

like putting on a

20:45

different gender clothes

20:47

for the first time and being like, oh, this feels

20:50

different and even good, right?

20:53

Yeah. that level to experiment

20:55

for a little bit and take it off and be

20:58

like, okay, this is fun for a while

21:00

in the same way that putting on makeup is

21:02

fun for a little bit. Or it's

21:04

like, oh, actually, I feel kind

21:07

of weird without it now. Or it feels

21:09

a little bit,

21:10

I don't feel as

21:11

euphoric without it. And especially

21:15

because I realized I was non-binary

21:18

and sort of experiencing that sort of middle ground,

21:21

elves were essential for

21:23

that for me

21:24

because of that very much

21:26

just the general androgyny of an elf

21:29

that I like really liked really

21:32

helped me realize like oh no existing in this like

21:34

middle space is just kind

21:36

of really important for me and

21:38

I need it. When

21:41

you were looking at the Player's Handbook for

21:44

the 2014 Players Handbook. Did

21:47

you note that

21:49

bit in the character creation

21:53

thing that specifically says, you

21:55

know, choose whatever gender makes the most

21:57

sense for you as a character

22:00

and as a player. I remember

22:03

not grokking that when I first read it, I just kind

22:05

of, oh yeah, no, of course that makes sense. But I

22:08

have talked to a few folks who realized that that

22:10

was a kind of, you know,

22:12

flagpole down of like, no,

22:14

this is where elves can, the

22:19

realm in which they live. I think

22:22

it was, I think it definitely wasn't my

22:24

first character, but I think, probably

22:26

by the second, like 2015, 2016, of

22:29

just like, okay,

22:31

the first character I made, absolutely

22:33

kind of a jokey joke character,

22:36

but my first like long-term campaign character

22:38

being this sort of

22:40

like Warlock

22:43

and Bard who is mostly

22:45

a big romantic who loves

22:47

to do big spectacle. That's a character

22:50

who is beyond really with needing to worry about gender

22:52

and a capacity. Everything is a performance at

22:54

that point. And like, that's

22:56

when it was like, okay,

22:57

Well, like legally, he is

22:59

a guy, but does he really care

23:01

if he were to say like, ma'am or sir

23:04

or anything like that? Not at all.

23:06

He's just here for the vibes. And

23:09

like that sort of feeling of

23:12

getting to like, sort of go like, gender is kind

23:14

of eh. And

23:16

like for this character, and then I have

23:18

other characters where it's deeply important to them, where

23:21

like that they are, you know, perceived as such

23:23

or seen as such. And

23:26

it was very important for me. To

23:29

see it in the books too, right? Oh yeah. So

23:34

I think obviously

23:37

most people, just your everyday

23:40

D&D playing people, maybe aren't

23:42

therapists. Some of them are

23:44

definitely, but maybe they're not. But

23:47

they probably all are supportive of

23:49

their group and want everyone to have

23:51

a good time and feel included and comfortable and all.

23:54

I mean, I realize that sometimes when people play, they don't

23:56

realize the stuff that's gonna bubble up.

23:58

that like they are. there

24:00

is something that they are exploring that they didn't

24:02

know needed to be explored

24:05

but as a fellow player or a somebody

24:08

in the group like are there are

24:10

other ways that a party

24:12

can support player in the i'm

24:15

with ya sort of exploration i

24:18

mean like i think they big

24:20

was going out and both on and off

24:22

like play arma definitely

24:24

i could see people explore gender

24:26

through their characters i like

24:28

even make that a focal point of their characters

24:31

journeys realizing oh

24:33

on you know something's been missing

24:35

and it's been this piece of exploration them i found

24:37

it in mean ah and that it and

24:39

let us all coming from the character but also having

24:42

any good group like

24:44

dnb group arm there's

24:47

also core of like carrying not just

24:49

about the story but about the players and

24:51

yeah i'm sure that like everyone isn't

24:53

a good head space make sure everyone is feeling

24:55

okay and it

24:57

would like to believe that

24:59

for any of the tables ever played out

25:02

if someone came up and said hey i've been

25:04

sort of thinking about something that

25:07

i think i've carried myself both as a person

25:09

and like i

25:10

think i'm knowledgeable enough that if they wanted

25:12

to like come to me

25:14

i'd be more than willing to like hey let's

25:17

talk about it or what things

25:19

are like are you feeling good about this

25:21

or you can buy would think there are

25:23

you are you feeling new feelings which

25:25

i think is really important because

25:27

sort of that feeling of discovery

25:30

can

25:30

be super super important night

25:32

i do a lot of like tic toc and stuff

25:34

as well and i've definitely

25:37

especially because tic tacs you so much younger than me

25:40

i'm like a doubling had people

25:42

talk about like oh i remember

25:44

like

25:45

that sort of helped me realize

25:47

something or like see this seeing

25:50

this sort of character helped me realize that like actually

25:53

like maybe i want to be the edgy little rogue

25:55

and not just my character i wanna

25:57

be the one wearing jet black and kind of being of

26:00

tough guy. And like, that's so

26:02

important. And like one of the beautiful parts

26:04

about exploring yourself in those ways. So

26:07

I think any good table will hear that and

26:09

go, how

26:10

can we help you? I laughed in

26:12

the middle of that because he said, TikTok skews younger

26:14

than you. And then I'm like, Oh, shit.

26:20

Yeah,

26:22

I'm 27. So like, I know I'm not,

26:25

I'm not, I'm not old.

26:27

I'm not, I'm not an old person. I will

26:29

treat myself as such because I think it's funny. But

26:32

I've definitely had people who've

26:35

been like, oh yeah, no, I remember watching

26:37

this piece of media when I was a kid and like, mmm,

26:39

mmm. I don't

26:42

like that. I'm like hearing that actually. Get

26:44

used to decades of that from now

26:46

until forever. I know, it doesn't get easier. Yeah. Yeah.

26:51

But

26:52

I love

26:54

that question, Shelly, from a player

26:57

perspective, but I'm also really

26:59

interested in a world builder and

27:02

a GMDM perspective,

27:04

because one thing that I've struggled

27:07

with is some of my own baked in

27:10

thoughts about the fantasy

27:12

genre, whether that's from like, oh, dwarves

27:14

don't like elves. Even that simple thing,

27:17

I'm like, hmm, I don't really like that anymore. It

27:19

feels stupid and

27:23

doesn't really express what I want to express in

27:25

the world building that I'm doing. How

27:28

can you do that

27:30

type of play

27:33

without falling back on tired

27:36

old tropes like that?

27:37

I think for me, both

27:39

one of my biggest

27:41

advantages and things I had to

27:43

hurdle is I didn't go... I'm

27:45

not really super familiar

27:48

with the fantasy space comparatively.

27:51

I grew up watching a lot of anime and reading a lot of

27:53

comic books. I could talk about

27:55

Superman for three hours. Don't

27:58

stop or don't tell me

28:00

I grew up with very much like

28:02

the media that really inspired me stuff like X-Men.

28:05

This is why and the way I am. So

28:08

when I like make fantasy worlds, I think I've

28:10

always considered things almost

28:12

comic booky in a way of like, there

28:15

is this sort of like grand metropolis

28:17

in these ways, they are these very big cities.

28:19

And when it comes to designing more of the fantastical

28:22

elements, or the more

28:24

like smaller cities where it's like, okay,

28:27

like this is probably a place that's full of elves.

28:30

What else, like, what

28:32

is their history on like a, I'm

28:34

also just a big lore nerd. I love

28:37

unpacking history. I was a history major in

28:39

college. So then I also

28:41

sort of take this very anthropological

28:43

like, all right,

28:45

is there a reason why the elves don't like the dwarves?

28:48

Does, is it a like history

28:50

of business and trade? Is it like,

28:53

like, are there reasons or is it just, you

28:55

know, I've seen this in the

28:58

rings or anything.

28:59

And like going from there and

29:01

getting to like,

29:03

I enjoy making systems that really work.

29:05

So for me, like my, the Underdark

29:07

in my home game is mostly

29:10

like a city

29:12

that is fueled by like,

29:15

like smugglers by crime

29:18

in a way that's similar to a mafia

29:21

almost. So there's a lot of respect

29:23

given actually as long as you don't mess with any of

29:25

the major cities or the major families. And

29:28

sort of taking that and saying like, okay, well,

29:30

they probably don't like

29:31

this city because they're business rivals instead

29:35

of like any real... Like

29:38

it's all down to the money for them or

29:40

examining like any of my like more

29:42

burden in like green, fur-bulk,

29:45

full like towns. We're like, okay,

29:47

I think like Elodrin might hang out here. I

29:50

think like

29:51

little guys who are kind of just trying to stay

29:53

out of it. So like there's a decent amount of cobolds

29:56

here because they're just kind of trying to mind

29:58

their business and they know.

30:00

They're not gonna fight with the furbolts for

30:02

folks or chill and they just kind of moved

30:04

here eventually and like stuff like that I

30:06

think is really fun to do. I also

30:08

let my players do a lot of the

30:10

like I like to make it very communicative

30:13

like What's the type of adventures you

30:15

want to see in this world? Like

30:17

I have a character who's a pirate We're

30:19

gonna add a lot of ocean for you now, bud

30:22

We're gonna make sure there's a lot of water for you to interact

30:24

with one person did sort

30:26

of come from more of like a a thief

30:29

background. So that's why I made that Underdark

30:31

so complicated and so complex. Because

30:34

I wanted them to feel like they had a history

30:36

when they go there and sort of went

30:38

from there. So it's using story

30:41

instead of

30:43

tropes, right? Yeah. Yeah.

30:45

Pick the things that come from your players and

30:48

make them emotionally invested in it and then any animosities

30:51

are kind of built from there rather than, you

30:54

know, systemic racism. Yeah,

30:57

literally that.

31:02

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

31:05

So you are. Well, you mentioned

31:08

that you are the perma GM

31:10

for your home games. Oh yeah. Yes.

31:13

How did it, how did you come into that role? The short answer

31:15

is willing to. But the long

31:18

answer was, um, we

31:24

had had sort of two concurrent back-to-back games. back

31:26

games. I had one friend who would play

31:28

on Monday who'd run stuff on Mondays, and

31:30

I'd run stuff on Tuesdays. This is when

31:33

we were a decent amount younger. We had way

31:35

more free time. Right. More currently.

31:37

A lot

31:37

of these two separate. Sorry.

31:40

These were the same group, same friend

31:42

group, just two separate games. Okay. And

31:45

we each took this, this speaks more to

31:47

my like, growing up on non like fantasy

31:49

media.

31:50

I made something I was very like cyberpunk

31:53

using D&D. I made,

31:55

it was, it was a, I'm

31:58

gonna try to make sure I get hit all the words. It

32:00

was like a cyberpunk thing

32:03

that was like fronted. These were actually like mega

32:05

corpse that were all fighting because they were

32:07

secretly led by Norse gods.

32:10

Well, yes, this was something I had

32:12

a lot of fun doing. I think it took like three years for

32:14

that to run.

32:17

And I really liked sort of, you

32:19

know, taking that traditional like fantasy

32:21

elements and

32:22

moving them far, far, long into the future.

32:25

I thought that was very fun for me. Um,

32:28

and like, we took that general, like

32:31

ideas and wanted to,

32:33

um, I like,

32:36

I was like, I'll do it. Sure. Why not? Um,

32:39

and then that game ended and everyone was

32:41

like, well, we kind of like how you run. And

32:46

like you, you're, you're like, you'll buy all

32:48

the books. And I,

32:50

I'm only messing with them partially. I love all of those,

32:53

all of my players, but, uh, I do

32:55

also like, I

32:56

think As a player, I'm way more

32:58

of a support player. I don't know if that is

33:01

from me being a Permajee or the

33:03

other way around.

33:04

But I like to prop up other people's stories

33:07

already when it comes to my style of play.

33:10

So I also just don't mind. I think it's really fun

33:13

to sort of

33:14

take the weird media that I've consumed and

33:17

help make it work into the stories

33:19

my friends want to tell.

33:22

I will roast one of my partners because

33:24

I love him dearly. He

33:27

plays a pirate tiefling named Val. And

33:30

when he asked me to GM for Val,

33:32

he asked me with a more sincerity than if he will

33:34

ever propose to me. And I put that on a mic

33:36

today. Because like, you

33:39

got down on one knee. Open

33:42

it up to a few players handbook. He was

33:44

just like, Hey, because like he's

33:46

had this character for years. And it was just

33:48

like every other DM, like the game

33:50

ended up falling through or something would happen. like

33:54

the sheer sincerity I was received

33:56

with this request. And

33:59

I thought it was really.

34:00

And like COVID was just starting

34:02

to hit. So I had free time.

34:05

So like I built the big map by hand. Like

34:08

I had for some reason, I had giant

34:10

sheets of like construction paper and like

34:12

drew out the map and like everything. So

34:14

we, we built this world from scratch.

34:18

And like, I just, it's been

34:20

a labor of love in a way that I really, really like

34:22

doing, we still play every Tuesday night.

34:25

Nice. That's amazing. That

34:27

sounds like a really cool. I do too. I

34:30

love maps as a

34:32

physical artifact. I'll have to find a photo of it

34:34

and send it your guys' way now. That's so awesome.

34:36

I love the idea of

34:38

just building it out

34:40

together. You're often your

34:43

literal figurative corner of

34:45

the world, and then someone else is

34:47

building out something else. Oh, yeah. That's

34:49

a really cool idea. Especially because

34:51

I really like the what do you want to explore

34:54

as players idea

34:56

of world building too, because it does let me know.

35:00

At one point, I've definitely done the thing of like, oh,

35:03

I really want all of you to care about this really

35:05

particular thing I've built.

35:06

And

35:07

narratively, there's no one's going to

35:09

be invested in that sort of thing,

35:12

because this doesn't really speak

35:14

to their characters. This lets me help

35:16

focus all of my creative energy on,

35:19

okay, here's the places

35:21

that speak to them. speak to them, here are these set pieces

35:23

that I think would speak to these characters

35:25

first instead of me making a really big world.

35:28

And then turns out, they really just think like

35:31

this one section is really cool. It

35:35

helps with stopping the like kind of DM

35:37

burnout that I can get sometimes by

35:40

like leveling my

35:42

like expectations a lot

35:44

low or not lower, not lower properly.

35:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

35:51

that can happen to anyone who is the

35:54

perma GM of their group. It's

35:58

tough, right? Right? It's a lot of bird and I... i

36:01

would love to hear your thoughts on what

36:03

you do to make

36:06

sure you're looking forward to the game that's

36:08

something that happened to me which was which

36:10

was i started to dread it

36:12

i started like are now it's it's to gonna be tuesday

36:14

soon what am i gonna do how

36:17

am i gonna prep for this how is this

36:19

gonna be fine for my players i

36:20

think a thing that i put in and

36:23

recently as one thing and taking sort

36:25

of the things they've all to land from performing

36:27

is like stars and wishes so

36:29

every so i think every

36:31

session where and need on like here's the positives

36:34

and the wishes being i hear something i'd like

36:36

to focus on ah

36:37

because in my head i am

36:39

deeply were that my brain is

36:41

different ah in in a good way

36:44

i'm so i know the things that i'd

36:46

narratively like think would be more interesting but

36:48

i also wanna hear from make our

36:50

it will what's the things you would like to do

36:52

and like sometimes a cast like ah

36:54

i wanted i want a downtime sash

36:57

i think you'd be really nice we can to sort of talk about the

36:59

things that we've experienced of last like ten

37:01

sessions and my cool that

37:03

means i can find a nice place an interesting place

37:05

we got sit down and talk at ah

37:08

and like ending up recession on here's the

37:10

really good stuff in here something that could help me

37:13

that like i'm i just really like to see

37:16

how funny relieve focus

37:18

fire all of that energy in a way that i think

37:21

is

37:21

important for me because i'm my i'm very

37:23

narrow divergent i have a very

37:25

extreme eighty hd in a way that means

37:28

i will get distracted by making a bunch of really cool

37:30

little things and none of those

37:32

are things on cares about and then suddenly i feel

37:35

for

37:35

of like what

37:36

was the point of all that effort ah

37:39

and especially after playing

37:41

with my friends since when

37:43

he eighteen i think so i we've

37:45

also just gotten to learn

37:47

i think a lot about what we're all

37:49

kind of like ah

37:51

and like the sort of tropes that make my friends

37:53

brains go like bar

37:54

they love it and

37:56

like getting to play into those spaces really

37:58

helps i think all us I saw

38:00

you react, Greg, when hearing

38:03

about being ADHD and creating

38:06

a million little things that nobody

38:08

cares about.

38:09

Yes, yes, because I'm so deadline-oriented,

38:12

right? So I'll create

38:14

these deadlines for myself, and I've written

38:16

pages and pages of stuff for a homebrew world,

38:19

and then

38:21

it never gets the light of day. No

38:25

one gets to see it, or no one cares, no

38:27

one interacts in any way. And then

38:29

that's kind of made me be the lazy DM

38:32

because I'm like, I don't want to do anything

38:34

unless it's in game, unless it's, you know, I'll do a little

38:37

bit of prep

38:38

to just, you know, get the encounters

38:40

and kind of things of where it might go. And

38:43

had a lot of reward from doing that. But yes,

38:45

because I was just like you,

38:47

Darr. Yeah,

38:48

I've had like one, I think, one

38:52

particular time where I felt really let down by

38:54

like, oh, this just didn't go away and I expected.

38:57

And from there, I've always, I kind

39:00

of use that as a really big learning moment too.

39:03

I think

39:04

when there are moments or things that I as a GM,

39:06

like, Hey, I would really like you guys to interact with

39:09

this thing. Sometimes I will be very honest to like, Hey,

39:11

uh, the city I think is really neat.

39:13

If you guys would like to look around, I'd really,

39:16

I'd really love to. So I can tell you about some of

39:18

the lore it made. I had no pressure,

39:20

obviously. Um, because I also

39:22

know like

39:23

a lot of those little bits are the sort of things

39:25

that they will find interesting, at

39:27

least to come back to later in this world. Even

39:30

if the ticking clocks

39:33

too stressful, they have to go

39:35

deal with the thing. It means this could be

39:37

a fun place to do a shopping episode or

39:39

something later. I

39:42

have an entire town that is just a magic

39:44

college town. So there's a

39:46

bunch of weird items and really cool inns

39:48

where it's like, oh, the drinks here will make you

39:50

levitate, literally. and just getting

39:52

to like have an episode where like we're just

39:54

gonna go hang out here and it's very chill.

39:57

It's so nice for me.

40:00

Oh my god. This trick will turn you on fire.

40:02

It's lit. This

40:04

party is lit. This,

40:07

wait, I'm gonna ask

40:09

you both this as people who look homebrew

40:11

and create worlds because I am not

40:14

there yet. But

40:16

are your worlds like that fleshed out?

40:18

Where you know like things like, hey

40:21

we serve drinks here that will make you levitate.

40:23

Yeah, for me. Wow! And here's

40:27

the drink menu of each bar

40:29

in town. And sometimes the

40:31

people just improv. Like

40:34

sometimes it's things that I think would be very funny just

40:36

in the moment. But at least

40:38

knowing the vibes of those towns means

40:41

I know from

40:42

an improv standpoint or like a very

40:44

short like, okay, like we're in

40:46

the college town, we want to go look at an in

40:49

or look at a, you know, a bar

40:51

menu. Okay, let me think of some

40:53

quick little puns or something terrible. And

40:55

then I can make a little like some weird magic effects.

40:58

Even maybe I'll even take a look at like the wild

41:00

magic table and see like, ah, maybe

41:02

you'll turn into a shrub if you drink this one.

41:04

Who knows? Uh, you'll, you'll be shrubbed.

41:07

You'll be a shrub for like two seconds.

41:09

Um, and like, I

41:11

also add a culture role

41:13

to my own homebrew game for that similar reason. I

41:16

really like to dig down into

41:19

the nitty gritty of why a

41:21

city is.

41:22

I've always been... I'm

41:24

a real romantic about cities. I also

41:26

like to just sometimes sit somewhere and just let a

41:28

city pass me by in real life.

41:31

And this sort of informs how I like to

41:34

start at a very ground level when I build

41:36

places. Because

41:38

it's just really fun for me in that aspect. Yeah,

41:42

part of what makes it exciting is that simulation

41:44

aspect where you're like, I'm not just creating

41:48

a story for my friends. I'm creating

41:50

a world in which that story can

41:53

happen. And

41:55

I'm not always successful. I'll tell you that. I've

41:57

certainly written a whole bunch of stuff and... sometimes

42:00

get it out there in ways that feel

42:03

natural and fun. But sometimes, and

42:05

I actually really like what you just said, Dara, being like, please,

42:08

can we please interact with this

42:10

thing that I spent time on, GM

42:12

to players, just being like, hey, this,

42:15

and I don't think there's anything wrong with telegraphing that.

42:17

Oh yeah,

42:19

I think when I was a little bit younger, when

42:22

I first got into it, I definitely took GMing

42:24

as a more antagonistic, like,

42:26

I am trying to be the thing that is

42:28

stopping it.

42:30

And I think after we finished our first campaign,

42:32

I think we all had this shared realization, especially

42:34

as we all got really emotional at the end of it, that

42:37

I think the fun is helping tell a good story

42:39

and helping tell a successful story.

42:41

And that sometimes me even wanting to be like,

42:45

hey, I would also like things

42:47

sometimes. And being

42:49

willing and front facing enough to ask

42:52

that of your players can be really

42:54

important, really good,

42:56

because I would hate to

42:58

ever build a sort of like, I'm kind of resentful

43:00

of the way my players interact with my world.

43:03

So sometimes I just, sometimes I put

43:05

in a little thing that's fun strictly for me,

43:08

and that's enough. I

43:12

have like a whole underground rat

43:14

society. They're all just info brokers. They're

43:16

talking like rat people. And

43:19

like, I love these guys. They'll sometimes show

43:22

up just cause like, if you need information,

43:24

Jerry the rat's gonna be there. I love him.

43:27

That's

43:27

a great idea. Yeah,

43:30

I love putting little infobrovers in my worlds and

43:32

stuff too. People that I

43:36

am a sucker for like really having people who are

43:38

down on the lowest levels to

43:40

be the people who know everything.

43:43

That's

43:45

like a DM insert character too, right?

43:47

Where you can just be like, this is me telling you what's up

43:50

with the world. Yeah, it's

43:52

a good way of like both adding a

43:54

very goofy little character because Jerry is a silly

43:56

little guy. but also like if

43:59

my players ever or

44:00

if you lost or if they ever want to know, hey, I'm

44:02

here, what's worth interacting

44:04

in this place? There's a

44:06

member of the rat information network somewhere

44:08

in town, every town has one. It's

44:11

like Nurse Joy from Pokemon, there's always

44:14

one. Are they actual?

44:17

Are they actual rats or they wear rats? They're

44:19

like, they're

44:21

a whole family of cursed, like

44:24

almost like hex cursed like rat people.

44:27

So like. Okay, like skating from Warhammer.

44:30

And the wild shape went really bad. It's the best

44:32

way I can describe it.

44:34

They're fine with it though. They're pretty chill about it. They're

44:37

fine with it. Even

44:39

then I'm like, that's a plot hook right there.

44:42

Like, hey, can we, you know. What happened?

44:44

What happened? If they ever wanna like

44:47

figure out and see if they can reverse this curse, I

44:49

don't know if they ever will, but they kinda

44:52

like them as little rat dudes. Well,

44:55

they're helpful. And maybe you need an individual or someone wants to play campaign

44:58

wants to play one of the the people and

45:00

I would build a stat block I would

45:02

build stats for that rat man right now if

45:05

I needed to

45:07

so two things

45:09

that you're bringing up that I want to

45:11

touch back on both about we

45:14

talked a lot about how DMS can make

45:17

tips for dungeon masters how they can do this

45:19

better or work on this and like leave

45:22

the dungeon masters alone like they're doing and

45:24

And they're doing the Lord's work here. They're doing

45:26

enough.

45:26

—Pelors work. —Let's talk

45:28

about players for a minute. One

45:31

thing you brought up was that you as a player

45:33

like to prop up other players

45:36

and help tell their stories, which I think

45:38

is not something that I

45:40

don't think about that a lot when,

45:43

as a player, I tend to be thinking about my own

45:45

story, I guess. How

45:48

could players

45:50

be more central to their

45:52

party members' stories, if that is something

45:55

that they want? How can we help

45:57

tell each other's stories?

45:58

I think...

46:00

One of the things that helps with that is making sure like

46:02

wishes are stated. I think

46:04

once again, another early GMing problem that

46:06

I had is everyone really loves their secrets

46:09

in a way that like

46:11

when everyone's hiding secrets, no one really knows how to

46:13

best help each other.

46:14

And with stars and wishes, when you're in a position

46:16

of, oh, I want my character to maybe

46:18

address

46:20

sort of this, they've been feeling really down or

46:23

they've been feeling kind of lost in life.

46:25

Then suddenly I'm in a position of like, okay,

46:27

my character is generally a bit more introspective.

46:30

Do you want us to have like maybe let's have a scene where

46:32

we're like sitting and talking about life

46:34

to give you that opportunity or you know

46:36

giving those letting

46:39

everyone know what you want, I think and

46:41

like Reducing the amount

46:43

of secrets because sometimes secrets are really fun a

46:46

good twist Incredible, but

46:48

I think not everything needs to be a twist

46:50

Sometimes it is okay to tell you're like fellow

46:53

like player like the fellow folks

46:56

at your table. I

46:58

I kind of want to explore this thing or

47:00

I want to like explore my sort of feelings about loneliness

47:03

or anything. Because

47:05

I think most people,

47:07

if they know there's an opportunity they can help

47:09

tell your story, would be pretty down

47:12

to. It helps

47:14

also build relationship between certain players.

47:16

If like, okay, whenever I'm

47:19

down, I come to your player to talk or

47:21

your character to talk to that builds

47:23

I think a greater sense of like

47:26

those individual relationship strings.

47:28

So you know, not only are we moving together as a

47:30

party, but

47:31

I care about this person for this reason, not

47:33

just because we are

47:35

saving the world, but like also you

47:38

are my friend and whenever you're down, I am

47:40

I am your mom friend, I come to support you. Or

47:43

you know, whenever

47:44

I have stuff in my world where there's

47:46

like arena fights, two characters

47:49

generally will always go together. They're always like fighting

47:51

buddies. That is their bonding experience.

47:54

like getting to have people's

47:57

wishes said out loud, I think really

47:59

helps.

48:00

the of people opportunity to play the

48:02

that there plus one in that way when

48:05

i love about that is there is

48:07

a joy as you said in twist

48:09

where maybe just the dm in the and

48:12

one player are

48:13

aware of something a

48:16

secret him he gets revealed and they do

48:18

might have that experience but i'm

48:20

thinking about mystery

48:22

shows and mystery television

48:25

and sometimes of the

48:27

most fun when everybody knows what

48:29

mr years and you're just trying out

48:31

a failure any yeah where and your to try to see

48:34

the characters experience it

48:36

all the same time so i'm thinking of those

48:39

yeah a bit by having those wishes be public

48:41

and having everybody at the table know those

48:43

secrets so when they come out

48:46

you all of a sudden have everybody at the table

48:48

jumping up a be i got my god

48:49

that just a habit because that that's something

48:51

that we've been holding our do for six months but i'm

48:53

so glad you got to experience that i am

48:55

right rather than you know

48:58

the secret sly smile is that the dm

49:00

and one character might have together if it's

49:02

ah yeah if it's held to close the chest

49:04

i'm yeah and especially when sometimes

49:06

like one

49:07

of my characters had a secret kid ah

49:10

he'd like he just had a kid

49:12

that it was around in the world for years and

49:14

like only one other player knew about it

49:17

like in

49:18

game but above it if we all knew

49:20

someone over there seems what happened there sort of this

49:22

like how can we piece together

49:24

these little facts about this kid based

49:27

on like and will will their perception

49:29

like when they finally meet him live up to everything

49:31

we've heard about a month on

49:33

the table and like that sort

49:36

of you know that fun of playing with dramatic

49:38

irony is i enjoyed a lot i

49:40

think you can we do some i

49:43

think they both have their uses but i'm getting

49:45

to do one is

49:48

really fun sometimes one

49:50

on question of our players and

49:53

helping

49:53

their dungeon master's i

49:55

feel terrible knowing that you have all

49:57

these nooks and crannies in your world that p of

49:59

artists nope, I'm just on my way somewhere

50:02

else. I'm not going to walk in here. But really,

50:04

like, how can players

50:07

be better

50:10

players? Like, what can what

50:12

what if you were like, okay, I'm

50:14

a GM, and this is my

50:16

dream. I just want players to do X,

50:18

Y and Z. I

50:22

think sometimes making that

50:24

desire known, like, I

50:27

think more information is always better. So

50:29

whenever I run games, I generally let people know

50:31

I put a lot

50:33

more stake into the RP. And

50:36

I want you guys to explore

50:38

the world. Combat, I tend

50:40

to do combat a lot less and make it more

50:42

of a boss fight. Combat

50:44

for me signifies that something big is happening

50:47

to the world. Generally, I also

50:50

use

50:53

milestone leveling for that same reason. I

50:55

think, you know, when we fight something, it's going to

50:57

be, I'm going to signpost

50:59

it. It's going to be a big deal. So like, don't

51:02

feel like you're in a rush.

51:04

Feel free to explore the world. Talk

51:06

to and establish relationships with these

51:09

weird little guys in this world. Because

51:11

that means that when the world's in danger and you have

51:14

to fight,

51:14

you're going to fight like hell to save it now.

51:17

Because this isn't just fantasy

51:19

plays. You can care about

51:22

what about the guys in this town I care about?

51:24

about my family who we've met a few times.

51:27

What about the

51:28

weird little shop keeps that always,

51:30

you know, he'll always sneak me as extra piece of candy

51:33

whenever I go, go to his inn, you

51:35

know, stuff like that. I think really helps

51:37

make the world worth fighting for.

51:40

Like I care so much. Like the little things

51:43

are so important because it makes

51:45

everything feet hit harder.

51:48

Um, like

51:49

if I've ever, every, for every NPC

51:51

I've killed, which is not a lot of them.

51:53

I make sure that we know a lot about them

51:55

first.

51:56

So it doesn't just feel like,

51:58

you know, in comic book.

52:00

in terms someone got fringed for character development,

52:02

but a real person, like there's

52:04

been a real feeling of loss in

52:07

this community or to these players.

52:10

Yeah, that seems like some

52:14

simple, but yet so impactful to

52:16

think like, well, yes, like the more you explore

52:18

this town, the more engaged with

52:20

it you'll be, the more immersed you are, the higher the

52:23

stakes.

52:24

I do wanna save you, because I will miss

52:26

that shopkeeper who slips me an extra

52:29

piece of candy. Yeah. That

52:32

tugged at my heart when you said that. Yeah.

52:35

Yeah, I don't know.

52:37

Once again, this is where my comic book love

52:40

shines. I love weird little characters and

52:42

one-off guys who will show up every, once

52:44

every 10 adventures because

52:48

like, and then maybe they'll be a little bit different.

52:50

Maybe the next time you check in with this guy, he reveals a little

52:52

bit about his life. And you're like, oh,

52:54

suddenly you're married now. Now this world is

52:56

a little bit bigger. My

52:59

big campaign I've been doing, it's

53:01

a big group of people saving the world.

53:04

And my four players, there's

53:07

other groups who are doing the same thing in

53:10

this world happening. So sometimes

53:13

different groups will meet up and interact. And

53:15

you'll see this other group looks like they've

53:17

been through the ringer lately. And that

53:19

means that their adventure has also been tough. And

53:21

I love introducing the sort of rival

53:24

or associate teams. So you know that

53:26

like,

53:27

you guys aren't the only ones who could save the world.

53:30

You're just the ones the camera's focusing on. Um,

53:33

and like, I enjoy that a lot.

53:35

Interesting. So I was poking around

53:38

on your website and

53:40

which we'll share the link to that in the show

53:43

notes, of course, but

53:45

it looks like you've got a whole bunch of games that

53:47

you have, uh, designed and put up

53:49

here on the site. And I was just want

53:51

to know a little bit more about your philosophy

53:54

behind designing these games but also maybe

53:56

talk about a couple of them. hopefully

53:59

one in particular.

54:00

that I'm very interested in to

54:02

all those I've heard. A game

54:04

of digital apologies? Yeah.

54:08

So I

54:10

write in two

54:12

ways. Either like

54:14

I'm also very much a poet. I think if

54:17

you can't tell by the way I talk. Yeah, I'm

54:19

a poet. You don't know

54:21

it.

54:21

I

54:24

often write things either from a place of like something

54:26

I think that is really funny. and I like to

54:29

go with the bit

54:30

or something that is I think written from

54:32

a sincere, a very sincere place. To

54:35

all those I've heard is from the funny end. It

54:38

is a game that is a love letter to

54:41

terrible YouTube apology videos.

54:44

I love this so much. I

54:46

think there is something so very

54:48

funny about having to film yourself

54:51

crying and saying, I'm sorry, I'm

54:53

sorry, reviewing that footage and going,

54:55

yeah, this'll work. I'm

54:59

like, I think a lot of this, someone

55:02

who also exists on TikTok and stuff, where I see

55:04

TikToks with someone crying, and I'm like, I have

55:06

just enough shame in my heart that I don't

55:08

think I could film myself crying and

55:11

then post that to the internet.

55:14

I'm just old enough where I don't know, I

55:16

care a little bit more about my digital footprint in

55:19

that way that like, you know, uh, kids

55:22

of the late nineties where it's sort of taught, like everything you

55:24

do on the internet matters, um, that

55:26

I'm willing, I have degrees of shame.

55:29

So like, I think YouTube apology

55:31

videos are really shameless in a way that I find fascinating.

55:35

And like, there's so many types of them that I've,

55:37

and I've seen a lot of them cause I think they're very funny

55:39

that

55:40

I just sort of made this as a love letter to

55:42

like all of the types of weird ones I've seen.

55:45

This is also a little bit inspired by like, I had watched

55:47

Glass Onion pretty much around the same

55:49

time. So thinking about a character like Bertie

55:52

who, oh

55:53

bless her, She

55:56

thought sweatshops were a type of store

55:58

that made sweatpants.

56:00

imagining someone having to make an

56:02

apology for something like that is so

56:04

goofy and like hilarious i

56:06

just thought it would be fun to sort of do that almost

56:09

at like a powerpoint presentation party

56:11

were

56:11

like our i were going to do like you

56:14

know we're going to have a weird night where we're going to talk about

56:16

media we really care about and then also

56:18

we're going to do a little bit of role playing and pretend to

56:20

be a gaming you tube or cool

56:22

like sold a really terrible

56:24

t shirt or like they made a game

56:27

controller and it breaks apart really easily

56:29

or anything like that even included the

56:31

parody clause where you can make

56:34

a

56:34

good they also like to be weird in matter where

56:36

you can make an apology video that is a fake

56:38

apology video oh yeah i'm making

56:41

fun of other people's type apology videos

56:43

and like i

56:45

like making goofy little things like the hackle

56:47

and then all of the players gonna have to do their own

56:50

apollo you for the everybody else oh

56:52

yeah i just like accomplish

56:54

the competition of whoever has the best lion and

56:56

you can eat if you wanted to add more theatricality

56:59

you could film and like added this if you wanted

57:01

to and make a real one largely

57:03

our game live like improv performance

57:05

of it i

57:06

feel rises just like a sketch comedy prime i

57:09

have a silly i like all know

57:11

what we're doing the next time we get together drag

57:13

and have with our family i think of are

57:15

gonna i love that is

57:17

that the it says use a variety

57:20

of potential backgrounds and controversy

57:22

it's the qnx providing

57:24

that i

57:24

have a small table on the scale

57:27

of like here's undergoing a larger very some

57:30

of them like sold bad merchandise or

57:32

took it really shady like promotional

57:34

deal on old tweets

57:37

what is just called old tweet oh boy sure

57:39

what the old ah that's

57:42

for you to fill out but it's an idea

57:44

hogan and law

57:46

our role on this the wild magic

57:48

table and the trinkets table for

57:50

of yeah and years and then put them

57:52

together into some weird apology

57:55

video about how the fluff

57:57

in your pocket was

58:00

From another dimension and then created

58:02

an incursion.

58:04

To everyone who was harmed by the frog hemat

58:06

I accidentally summoned, I would like to apologize.

58:08

You're not crying. When

58:12

you called it a frog hemat, I thought it was frog

58:14

sized. I didn't think of the hemat

58:16

part of that word. But

58:20

yeah, I love making goofy little things. I

58:22

was a kid who grew up watching a lot of stand up. One

58:24

day I'll do a stand up bit. One

58:26

day I'll do five minutes. a lifelong,

58:30

I need to get bullied into it. That's

58:31

also a good title. You

58:34

should make that into a game. One day I'll do five

58:36

minutes. And you have a table

58:39

where

58:39

you can like come up with your material. There's

58:42

gotta be a way. There's gotta be a way you can do. I

58:44

could do that. See most of these games are also made

58:46

in an afternoon, which is like, I love

58:48

the sporadic, like there's

58:50

a sort of sporadicness to them in a very much

58:52

like

58:54

flash in a pant nature to my game design

58:56

that I do. when the inspiration happens. Yeah. Yes.

58:59

That's the ADHD right there. It strikes when it strikes. And

59:01

I like to capture it like a, it's the same way

59:03

I write a lot of my poems. They're very much

59:06

written in the moment I'm feeling these feelings.

59:09

Amazing. So like, I

59:11

like things that capture a time capsule in

59:13

this way. Okay. I love it.

59:15

All right. Well, thanks so much, Dara, for talking all that through.

59:18

Now I wanna play this game and

59:21

incorporate almost everything we've been

59:23

talking about here in my next D&D session.

59:26

really good advice. Thank

59:28

you. I hope it

59:30

inspires people to, I think, at

59:32

least try exploring with the way they tell

59:34

stories.

59:36

Even if you don't like any or

59:38

all of these ideas,

59:39

try them once and see if your table likes them, you know?

59:42

Yeah, exactly. Where can people

59:44

find out more about the games that we're

59:46

talking about here, your appearances on

59:49

DT RPG shows, all that?

59:51

Yeah, you can find me all

59:53

over the internet at Day of the Dream RPG. That

59:56

is D-A-R-E, the number two D-R-E-A-M

59:59

RPG.

1:00:00

I am a writer, editor, sensitivity consultant.

1:00:02

I do a lot in this space. But

1:00:04

if you pretty much go to any search

1:00:08

engine and just type that and follow

1:00:10

it up with Tumblr, Twitter,

1:00:12

Instagram, Bandcamp, all

1:00:14

of them, I'm there. I'm there. I

1:00:18

banished it. I fought hard for this name and this

1:00:21

name is everywhere as a result now. Nice.

1:00:24

Got it. Follow dare to dream RPG

1:00:27

and

1:00:28

not just on Twitter, but

1:00:30

like follow what you're doing. Check

1:00:32

me out on itch. You can buy my

1:00:34

weird little games. They're very,

1:00:37

most of them are very sad, but like two of them are

1:00:39

very funny. So like check out

1:00:41

the sad ones too, but you know. I

1:00:44

love the resounding

1:00:47

endorsement. Most of them are really sad. They're sad

1:00:49

in a good way. But there's two funny ones. They're sad in a good way that'll

1:00:51

make you love and appreciate the people around you. I'm

1:00:54

not gonna tell you which ones are the funny ones though. You have to

1:00:56

figure that out. Yeah, buy

1:00:58

them all and you'll find out. Surprise.

1:01:02

Thanks so much, Darr. You're amazing. You're

1:01:04

awesome. Thank you. We're

1:01:08

back in. Oh my gosh, that time stop

1:01:10

was amazing. I feel like we're in a time warp. What

1:01:13

a wonderful interview. I love speaking

1:01:15

to Darr and finding out all about the

1:01:18

exciting indie games that

1:01:20

they were doing. That was really fun.

1:01:21

Yes, and I love hearing

1:01:24

those amazing stories about self-discovery

1:01:27

and all of the ways that your

1:01:30

D&D party and D&D can really help

1:01:33

you, you know, make

1:01:35

some really important fundamental

1:01:38

discoveries about yourself. I love it! Dare

1:01:41

to dream indeed, so give them a follow

1:01:43

and check out some of those, you

1:01:45

know, interesting games that they put up when they

1:01:48

are in spot.

1:01:48

Yes! It's always

1:01:50

something to be supporting out there

1:01:52

is creativity, just

1:01:56

like D&D does for everybody out there. Exactly.

1:02:00

to everything that's going on with Dragon

1:02:02

Talk, if you can too, subscribe, like, give

1:02:04

a review. We definitely want to spread the word

1:02:06

about everything that's going on through the

1:02:08

hobby in this podcast. We

1:02:11

don't do tons of commercials for ourselves

1:02:13

out there, but check out Welcome to Dragon

1:02:15

Talk as well. If you have not been able to pick it

1:02:18

up from your local bookseller,

1:02:20

it's available online in an

1:02:22

audible form. We are excited

1:02:25

to be at the Get Lit Festival

1:02:27

in Spivhan In a couple of weeks,

1:02:30

I don't know if there's any, I don't think there's any way to watch that

1:02:32

live, but we'll be giving a, you know,

1:02:34

a recap of everything that happened as well as our game

1:02:37

with Justice Armand and many other

1:02:39

famous authors in Spook

1:02:41

and Washington talking about our D&D

1:02:44

game.

1:02:44

I am so excited. Me

1:02:47

too. I got to talk to Justice a little bit and

1:02:50

he made the mistake of

1:02:52

saying, oh, do you know like what character

1:02:54

you want to play yet? And I'm like, let me tell

1:02:56

you everything. Nice.

1:03:00

He said, okay. Like

1:03:02

in concept approved. Done

1:03:05

and done. I have to make my character. I haven't made mine yet.

1:03:07

So I'm gonna not use one

1:03:09

I've made before and go nuts.

1:03:11

Happy to be a litter mate

1:03:13

with you again if you'd like to be a hair gun. Did you make a

1:03:15

tabaxi? No, I'm a hair and gun. A hair

1:03:17

and gun, all right. Yeah, I'll be a hair and gun. Hair

1:03:19

and gun, a barbarian. And

1:03:22

the name is gonna be Hair of the Dog. Then

1:03:25

my name is Rager Rabbit. Well,

1:03:31

I'm going to be a bard dancer

1:03:34

and it's going to be, do

1:03:36

the Roger Rabbit.

1:03:37

I love it. Okay,

1:03:39

yes. Because my backstory

1:03:42

does involve like escaping from

1:03:44

like a touring vaudeville-esque

1:03:47

magic show where our parents,

1:03:50

now our parents, not just my parents, our

1:03:52

parents were forced to

1:03:54

to be the bunnies pulled out of the hat at

1:03:57

every show. And I grew up seeing

1:03:59

that and was like. this is not believe that

1:04:01

i want i don't like it not for me

1:04:04

and left hit the road it's in

1:04:06

search of adventure but

1:04:08

also riches because i

1:04:10

want to break my parents out of that

1:04:13

horrible lifestyle and the only way to do

1:04:15

that is

1:04:16

with money is with money from

1:04:18

his eyes to allow and then

1:04:20

the yeah we talked with as little bit but maybe i'll be the

1:04:22

a the wizard slash charlatan

1:04:25

who was pulling the

1:04:27

rabbits

1:04:27

out of a hat and i'm reformed

1:04:30

as well because are you once you once

1:04:32

your family left the whole show fell apart my parents

1:04:34

were still there well

1:04:36

darn it sorry about that the

1:04:39

where are they another quest

1:04:41

for me to find lost family would

1:04:46

get about it is that so

1:04:48

you are given followed to me

1:04:51

and shelley imac greg tito on twitter

1:04:53

and great underscore to on instagram

1:04:56

i'm also active on mastodon and

1:04:58

hybrid couple other places shelley where are you

1:05:00

at where

1:05:01

am i twitter instagram

1:05:04

actually move or visit my website

1:05:06

at shirley manson and will dot com go

1:05:08

through the archives there's

1:05:10

not that much do but

1:05:11

go through the archives there's good southerner

1:05:13

for children you'll find something check

1:05:16

it out and then of course

1:05:18

if you want to get into anything that

1:05:20

dragons could a d and e beyond dot com

1:05:23

joined the discord server there as

1:05:25

well as follow wizards underscore the

1:05:27

in the on twitter and the into beyond

1:05:29

on twitter as well good places there

1:05:31

to start i

1:05:33

would love to find out what's going on

1:05:36

with drunk you to shoes and her tail

1:05:38

quest to find

1:05:40

daryl to shoes and the rest of

1:05:42

the taxi home

1:05:44

world so you're at

1:05:47

the radio citadel you're actually right in

1:05:49

front of the a large of a

1:05:51

boreal crystal on

1:05:54

and speaking to the guards there

1:05:56

you are trying to get in

1:05:59

they said at the were blocking your entrance

1:06:01

because they were investigating the disappearance of Shona,

1:06:05

who you had just spoken to earlier

1:06:07

in the day, but she

1:06:09

had disappeared and no one knows where,

1:06:11

and

1:06:12

I believe Drunkie

1:06:16

decided to attack these guards to

1:06:19

try to get through, and that's where we

1:06:21

cut off. What was

1:06:24

I doing to attack them? I don't

1:06:26

know, but role initiative. No, no, I remember.

1:06:28

Didn't I, did I use my ice knife?

1:06:30

You did use your ice knife, that's right. Ugh.

1:06:34

But was I really attacking them? I

1:06:36

mean, you cast ass and ice knife. Ass

1:06:39

knife. Ha ha ha ha. I

1:06:42

cast ass knife to

1:06:44

cut the cheese. Oh!

1:06:48

Come on, you guys are laughing.

1:06:50

Yeah, this is gross. Can

1:06:53

we, can drunk, can drunkie really

1:06:55

say that? I want her to really say that. Yeah,

1:06:57

she does. So go

1:07:00

ahead and roll initiative for me. Oh no.

1:07:03

Samson's gonna be so mad at me. Samson

1:07:06

is eyeing you not very happily, that is true.

1:07:10

14, I am gonna say you go first.

1:07:16

So you had cast

1:07:18

ice knife and you said, this is my ass knife.

1:07:21

I'm about to cut the cheese.

1:07:25

What do you do? Are you, are you, now that you have it cast,

1:07:28

do you attack with it? No, it's

1:07:30

just, I

1:07:33

say, oops, I'm sorry. That just

1:07:35

slipped out. But I would like to go see Shola's

1:07:37

chambers.

1:07:40

Oh wait, so you're not, so

1:07:42

you, okay. But you did say you cast Ice Knife

1:07:44

and you were like trying to break his staff, which

1:07:46

was like barring you. Oh, that's

1:07:47

what I was doing. I broke, yes, that's right.

1:07:49

Okay, sorry, I am gonna do that. I

1:07:52

knew it, but I had a reason for casting

1:07:54

it.

1:07:54

So he goes up defensively and Ice

1:07:56

Knight is a ranged attack. Which

1:08:00

I throw at him. Yes.

1:08:02

So you're trying to throw it at the wooden

1:08:04

staff that he has to try to break it. Should

1:08:07

I just roll an attack on it? Yeah,

1:08:09

this is your attack. Make a ranged spell attack. I

1:08:12

rolled a 1. Oh

1:08:14

no! Like

1:08:17

a 1 on the die? Yep. Oh

1:08:19

dear. Alright, so, this

1:08:23

is after you make the ass knife joke

1:08:25

or before? Oh, definitely after.

1:08:28

After. Okay. So

1:08:32

you fling this shard

1:08:34

of ice and it's supposed to go and

1:08:36

hit the staff that

1:08:38

he's got kind of barring the way and the rest of his

1:08:41

cohorts, he was the captain, right? So there's two other

1:08:43

guards, I think now here. And

1:08:45

they are also holding their staffs

1:08:47

horizontally. You

1:08:51

cast this ice knife, almost

1:08:53

like point blank, And it hits

1:08:57

the ground, bounces up,

1:08:59

hits the guard in the

1:09:01

butt. Ha ha ha ha! And

1:09:08

doesn't do a lot of damage, but he's now like,

1:09:10

oh, oh, oh, oh! And

1:09:12

he's just kind of standing and dancing in this

1:09:14

weird kind of awkward way.

1:09:16

Okay, well, I'm also now

1:09:19

dancing in that weird, awkward way.

1:09:21

And I'm going, oh! lot before the fight.

1:09:25

Everybody do the ice knife! Oh!

1:09:27

All

1:09:31

right I gotta roll a reaction there. What are you gonna

1:09:33

do the guards do? Come on everybody!

1:09:35

Oh! So

1:09:38

one of the guards kind of sees the captain doing that

1:09:40

and he trying to do the following along.

1:09:42

He's like what are we?

1:09:45

The other one is like no you cannot

1:09:47

embarrass him like that and attacks

1:09:49

you with his spear.

1:09:51

I'm not. I'm not trying

1:09:54

to embarrass him. Yeah,

1:09:56

luckily they roll poorly or

1:09:58

luckily for you anyway

1:10:00

And the

1:10:02

spear comes

1:10:04

down and then you see

1:10:06

your

1:10:08

really, really good friend, Blade

1:10:11

of Spring, bring up her blade

1:10:14

and blocks the spear

1:10:17

attack by this guard. And she says,

1:10:19

enough! There's more important things afoot here.

1:10:22

You tell us where the shola is. We can

1:10:24

help. We can build it on the same side here. There's no

1:10:26

conflict. What is the matter with you?

1:10:27

I am like partially embarrassed and

1:10:30

partially in awe. And

1:10:35

she kind of, she's

1:10:37

got her eyes on the guard. They're wide

1:10:40

and angry, but then you kind of see her look

1:10:42

at you, give you a wink,

1:10:45

and then she also belches a little bit. And

1:10:49

a little bit of a wine burp comes your way. I

1:10:52

want a DNA test, so I think

1:10:54

we're related. And

1:10:58

let me see what the captain of the guard does. He

1:11:01

says, by

1:11:03

what authority do you bring that

1:11:06

commanding tone with me? I just was

1:11:08

accosted by this interloper just

1:11:11

turned to you. I didn't accost you.

1:11:13

You shot an ice shard

1:11:15

into my arse. It fell

1:11:18

out of my hand and we

1:11:20

all had a good moment of levity, sir.

1:11:24

Roll me a deception check, because

1:11:27

he's waiting to see if you're lying to

1:11:29

him again. He

1:11:35

crit his insights check. And

1:11:39

he said, that was no accident.

1:11:41

It was. You were attempting to break in.

1:11:44

I was no, I did no such

1:11:46

thing. I, can I do something?

1:11:48

Yeah. I cast Minor

1:11:52

Illusion. Okay. Can I

1:11:54

make a minor illusion that looks like Shola? Yes.

1:11:58

And I'm gonna do it behind that. I'm gonna go, there

1:12:00

she is! And the minor illusion runs.

1:12:03

Can that happen? Okay.

1:12:06

That's another, make me a deception

1:12:08

check again. I'm not gonna give you advantage, because

1:12:10

that's pretty tough. So yeah, make me another straight

1:12:12

deception check to see if it pulls off. Credit

1:12:14

it! Really? Yup. All

1:12:17

right. 22. They

1:12:19

fail their insight check. And

1:12:24

the guard, Captain Kai just looks to you and is like, and

1:12:26

then after her, after her, and the

1:12:28

three of them run and the rest of you

1:12:30

can continue if you wish. Come on everybody.

1:12:33

All right, they're following this silent,

1:12:35

moving minor image and

1:12:39

we'll pick it up next time as you're chasing

1:12:41

a imaginary Shola.

1:12:43

All right.

1:12:44

Woo hoo. Woo. Woo. you