0:04

Welcome to

0:06

Dragontop! Welcome to Dragontop.

0:17

We should just have you do that intro

0:19

each time. I love that. It's my demon voice, Greg.

0:24

Shelly,

0:25

I had no idea you

0:27

had a demon voice. I'm not Shelly.

0:31

Who are you?

0:33

I'm Zuggy.

0:36

Zuggy? That's right. Goddess

0:39

of the fungi. Well,

0:43

I am a fungi. I'm

0:46

Greg Tito. That's

0:48

why I'm here. You

0:51

are my goddess.

0:53

I cherish you. I've

0:56

been summoned by a fungi.

1:01

Oh my god, I'm crying. That was very

1:03

good. I felt transported

1:06

into the fungi wedding that

1:08

happens

1:08

in Out of the Abyss. I'm

1:12

sure I told you about my mom's evil

1:15

witch personality. Yes,

1:16

you have. Not in a long time.

1:19

Fiddly Boozoo? Yeah,

1:22

my mom used to turn into a witch just

1:24

out of nowhere to scare my brother and I. And

1:27

she would call herself Fiddly Boozoo,

1:29

but we would say, Mom, Mom, and

1:31

she would go. She would just like turn around really

1:33

slowly and say,

1:34

I'm not your mother. I'm

1:37

Fiddly Boozoo. And then

1:39

we would run screaming. Wow.

1:42

I realize now like she just wanted to

1:44

be alone. Yeah. One

1:48

time she did it to me and I

1:50

got so freaked out that I ran. I remember

1:53

this clear as day. My dad was on the front

1:56

driveway washing the car and I

1:58

go running outside and I go. Daddy,

2:00

daddy, something's wrong with mommy.

2:03

Wow. And he like dropped

2:06

the hose, still spraying, covered

2:08

in soap and like his little like

2:11

1970s cutoff shorts running

2:13

up the stairs and my mom was just like laying

2:16

in bed reading Cosmo. And he was like,

2:19

what's wrong with her? I'm like, she's a witch.

2:22

Wow. How old were you do you think? And then

2:25

I probably like 17,

2:27

just kidding. It was 1945. I

2:33

was a kid. I was probably like

2:36

five, but I, anyway. And

2:40

then guess what? I got in trouble. I

2:42

got in trouble because I made him, I

2:44

got him so scared and nervous running up

2:46

the stairs, all soapy from washing the car.

2:48

It's a wonder that you

2:50

didn't start playing D&D until you were

2:52

an adult. I know, but

2:54

it's also a wonder like she should have been playing D&D.

2:58

She obviously already had a character all rolled

3:00

up inside her. Yeah. Haggatha

3:03

the Hexblade.

3:05

And that's why you love Haggs so much

3:07

I think because it reminds you of this

3:09

story. Of my mom. Of your mom. Yeah.

3:12

Ah. Anyway,

3:14

that came out of nowhere, but this didn't.

3:17

Whoa,

3:19

oh my God, there's three wrongers. Shelly, Ryan, we

3:21

gotta stop the podcast.

3:27

Shelly's lost it, by the way.

3:29

So good. Okay. You guys,

3:32

wow. This is Dragon Talk. I think if

3:34

you haven't figured that out by now, you now

3:36

know. Sorry. That's,

3:39

you know, B.L. Zabub and

3:42

I'm Greg Tito.

3:43

Yep, here we are for another great

3:45

episode of the official Dungeons and Dragons

3:47

podcast. We have a fantastic

3:50

guest coming on for our interview, Devin

3:53

Chulick, the creator of Total

3:55

Party Chill, as well as the founder

3:58

of Start Playing, one word.

5:51

That's

6:00

all someone needs to say to me. Like if they laugh at my jokes,

6:03

I'm like, you're my best friend. That's true.

6:05

You know what? You're funny is also, that is a sweet

6:07

spot. For sure. Yeah.

6:10

All right, so what are some of these reviews before we get to our next?

6:12

Okay, well, I mean,

6:14

I found the narrative approach to be open, friendly

6:16

and approachable as I

6:18

have found with some episodes I've sampled. Several

6:21

of the people didn't listen to Dragon Talk

6:23

and said in the review, but I do now.

6:25

Interesting. That's cool. Well, welcome

6:27

all of you who read our book and are listening. I

6:30

found it very accessible and it was well written

6:33

in a fun and friendly way. Come

6:36

on, man. That's just hitting all the buttons. That

6:38

is really quite delightful. Greg

6:41

has great hair.

6:45

I think that was by Todd Stashwick. How did they know that from

6:47

the... Todd Stashwick wrote that

6:49

one. Aw, thanks Todd. This one I really

6:51

loved. So they said, yes,

6:54

what comes across is the fun that

6:56

they have doing the podcast and how much fun

6:58

they think D&D in all of its

7:00

forms is. Plus the

7:02

authors do not ramble and are entertaining.

7:05

Why is that not on the front of the book? I

7:08

would put that front and center. Welcome to

7:10

Dragon Talk by Greg and Shelley.

7:13

The authors do not ramble. I'm

7:16

gonna get that quote framed and put it like... I

7:18

am too. On my wall.

7:20

I know, anyway. Because

7:22

we know it's patently false. I'm

7:26

like, obviously this is a person who does

7:28

not listen to a podcast. Just

7:33

go back about five minutes into this conversation

7:35

and you'll hear car washing, rambling

7:37

happening. It's a beautiful Friday

7:39

in Seattle. I'm like full

7:42

of excitement, so I couldn't help it. That

7:45

is, we appreciate every one of those reviews.

7:48

Thank you so much. You do, thank you. It is

7:50

hard when you throw out... I mean, this book's been out for about

7:52

six months now and

7:55

it's... Wow. Right, because it was like early December.

7:57

So it's still always... It's

8:00

always great to hear these things, and we want more people to

8:03

check it out. It's available on Audible.

8:05

If you want to just listen to us, ramble

8:08

in audio form, you can do

8:10

that. And of course, get more

8:12

people listening to Dragon Talk by leaving

8:14

one of those fancy reviews on the

8:16

podcast sites.

8:19

Yes, and I mean, yeah, just

8:21

if you read our book, if you

8:23

liked our book, maybe review our book, because

8:26

that also helps more people find it, and then more people

8:28

find D&D, and more people find Dragon Talk,

8:30

and we just have more people to play with.

8:32

It's a lizard

8:35

snake eating its own tail, just it

8:38

gets more people into this community. I

8:40

don't know why that,

8:41

it's an Oro Boros.

8:44

It's fantastic though, and we love it. And

8:47

yes, more people playing D&D, I

8:49

think is the end goal of basically everything we've

8:51

been doing here at Dragon Talk.

8:53

Absolutely. To that end,

8:55

one person who is probably, maybe

8:58

more than any other guest that we've had on Dragon

9:00

Talk, gotten people into playing

9:03

Dungeons and Dragons as well as dungeon mastering

9:05

for an audience. So let's

9:09

get

9:09

Devin Chulick on the horn. Devin

9:12

Chulick. Let's welcome Devin Chulick

9:15

to Dragon Talk. Yay!

9:20

Woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo

9:22

woo woo woo woo. We knew. So hyped

9:24

to be here. We are so hyped to have

9:26

you here. Studio audience is hyped too.

9:29

You know, because Devin

9:32

brings all of the worlds together.

9:35

That's true. As we have discovered in

9:37

our little pre-interview chat that

9:40

Devin

9:40

is sort of like

9:43

the center of the Venn diagram for

9:46

the loves that Greg and I have when

9:48

we're not. I love lore, I love deep lore and

9:52

that might be why. Deep lore,

9:54

good characters, good plot

9:56

hooks. Can

10:00

I out you on this? Yeah, yeah, please bell means.

10:02

Devin is a Bravo

10:05

television channel watcher, a

10:08

reality TV watcher, but also a huge

10:10

Trekkie nerd. So how

10:12

great is this everyone, finally?

10:14

The Venn diagram between Shelly and Greg

10:17

is Devin. I'm the one that prophesied. I'm the one that

10:19

prophesied. You were the chosen one!

10:22

We knew it would happen. Years

10:24

of light and of dark. And

10:26

that's why we brought you on for this interview,

10:29

not because of your work at

10:31

Total Party Chill or all the amazing

10:34

professional dungeon mastering that you've been doing. We

10:36

just wanna dish on Trek

10:38

and Vanderpumps. Yeah,

10:41

exactly. Good

10:41

Greg, good. Imagine

10:43

the real instance of the Enterprise. But

10:48

it's on a spell jammer and then we've got all three things

10:51

at once. Let's bring it all together,

10:53

all together now. Yeah, so you,

10:55

I think might've, you've

10:57

been doing D&D and TRPG

11:00

stuff for a long time, but

11:01

many folks might've heard your name after

11:04

being profiled

11:06

as a professional dungeon master.

11:09

And in 2019, that was

11:11

many of our being like, is that a real thing? Is

11:13

that happening? Yeah, so early. It

11:16

was wild. Bloomberg

11:18

reached out to me just because I had a

11:20

pretty high visibility online

11:22

from running games on Twitch

11:26

and having a website. And

11:28

when I got featured, it kind of exploded. I

11:30

remember after like the six months afterwards,

11:33

I got over 300 emails

11:35

from other game masters asking, hey, how

11:37

can I do what you do?

11:39

Yeah. Right?

11:41

Many of them are listeners to this show, I bet.

11:44

And that of course is like kind of what led into like

11:46

building Start Playing, which is like, now

11:48

we have like 5,000

11:51

professional game masters that can do what I

11:53

was able to do.

11:54

Amazing. Hey, let's talk about Start

11:57

Playing. Let's just start there, even though- So

12:00

I want to probably definitely dip back

12:02

into all the other things that we just touched on,

12:04

including the Red House Wipes. But

12:06

start playing. Okay, what

12:09

a cool idea.

12:10

Yeah. It was, you know,

12:13

I was running a lot of games for people. And

12:17

I was running more games than I could. And then

12:19

people that I didn't even know were like, oh, you run this game. And

12:21

I started doing that. And then once Bloomberg

12:23

happened, I realized that there's

12:26

so many people that are having trouble finding

12:28

their communities. Because when you game

12:30

with people, that becomes like a micro

12:32

community. Just think about

12:34

the experiences you've had with the other players. But

12:37

not everyone has the privilege

12:39

of being able to have that group of friends

12:41

already built in. And I

12:44

think there's something really special about the friendships that are

12:46

made at the

12:47

gaming table. And so when

12:49

we started start playing, we wanted to make it easy,

12:51

not only for like GMs to make like a living wage,

12:54

but also to be able to connect players with each other

12:56

and like have that community. I've

12:58

seen so many folks being like, hey, I'm playing, I'm running this game,

13:00

I'm running this game. And it's continued

13:04

my

13:04

theory that the reason, one of the

13:06

reasons why Dungeons Dragons is so popular

13:09

right now is that people are aware that

13:11

there are different styles of play. And

13:14

that what you want to do at table

13:16

on any given night is going to be different from what someone

13:18

else might want on any given night. And in

13:20

the past, it was just like, well, if you didn't find

13:22

your group at the local game store or in

13:24

your high school cafeteria in 1983, well, then you were

13:27

just crapped out of luck. And now

13:29

with tools like start playing as well as just

13:32

so many online communities out there, it's like, oh yeah,

13:34

no, I can find my

13:34

people.

13:35

Yeah. Because games have evolved so much.

13:39

D&D second edition is vastly

13:42

different from fifth edition. Fifth edition allows you to tell

13:45

so many different types of play story, whether

13:47

you're looking for simulation, narration,

13:51

and a game like that, allowing

13:53

people to kind of express like, this is what's fun for

13:55

me. And be able to play that way is like incredibly

13:57

important. Yeah, right.

13:58

I mean, people choose. different systems

14:01

for it, but I'd love that D&D can kind of also

14:03

be a big tent and have a bunch

14:05

of different ways to play within it. And yeah,

14:08

it's all out there now, right? It is. Yeah,

14:11

and I love that you can also choose a style

14:13

that is more representative

14:16

of how you play. So what you said, Greg,

14:18

a lot of people, maybe, like their first experience wasn't,

14:21

they don't know why, but you're like, oh,

14:23

this is D&D, like maybe it just the group wasn't

14:25

the right group or they didn't like the way the DM did

14:27

something.

14:28

But now like you,

14:30

DM styles, I feel like is so much more prevalent

14:32

because we're seeing so many people playing Dungeons

14:34

and Dragons on live streams or listening

14:36

to actual plays and you kind of have a better

14:39

idea of what's gonna work for you. And I just,

14:41

I love to just like sort Dungeon

14:43

Masters by like, oh, this sounds like

14:45

a game I'd be into

14:46

or a person I'd want to play with. All

14:49

of our Dungeon Masters, they have to use at

14:52

least one safety tool in their game, which we realize

14:54

is helps facilitate better communication,

14:56

which helps lead towards better play and things

14:59

like that. And so we're seeing this whole like new Renaissance,

15:02

you know, where more people are finding games than ever,

15:04

more GMs are able to like, you know, actually

15:07

run games. And the biggest thing is people used

15:09

to try to find a group and then play

15:11

with the GM, but now like people can just go to the site

15:14

and be like, I can play on Thursdays at 5. Yeah,

15:16

and what's the games Thursday at 5

15:19

you can join. Right. I have a

15:21

small window of time and and yet

15:23

a thousand Dungeon Masters who would have

15:25

me at their table. Yeah.

15:26

And that's where automation

15:29

and sorting and genres and tags

15:31

and stuff can be really help

15:34

where I know there's a lot of automation that won't ever

15:36

help, but this type of automation is what we need.

15:39

Exactly.

15:40

So how is it how is start playing

15:42

going? Like what's I mean, it seems like it was

15:45

relatively new in the last like year or so, right?

15:47

Yeah, we launched like

15:51

in September 2020 and now we've

15:54

just kind of like seen like things continue

15:56

to rise. We just crossed a really

15:58

cool threshold. Our GMs have made I made

16:01

as of last month, Game Masters

16:03

and Dungeon Masters on Start Playing have collectively made

16:06

over $9 million.

16:07

Oh my God. I'm

16:13

incredibly proud that so

16:15

many people found that success. It's awesome.

16:18

That's $9 million is crazy.

16:19

Yeah. Because the

16:22

game set I've seen, it's not like

16:24

the people aren't charging like a thousand bucks a

16:26

pop here. It's pretty affordable. That's all

16:28

we're out of games. Yeah, people are trying to $10

16:29

to $20 a game. But

16:33

with enough players and your time

16:35

and whatnot, people are still earning, living and

16:38

there's just that many people that want to play.

16:40

Do you think

16:42

professional dungeon mastering can be

16:45

the new YouTuber? The

16:49

new aspiration for nine-year-old kids?

16:51

How do we make this happen? Yeah,

16:54

like hey, instead of Minecraft. How

16:57

do I make this happen?

16:58

I do think so. I think there's... Because

17:00

it's one part host and it's

17:03

one part entertainment

17:05

and storytelling. And when

17:08

a lot of these YouTube communities,

17:10

that's what it is. It's a community, right? And

17:13

a table is just another type of community. But when

17:15

there's someone there who's invested

17:17

in that way, they're also like, I want to make sure that everyone's

17:19

having fun. I want to make sure that communication

17:22

is good. I want to make sure that people that

17:25

are providing feedback, I can act on it. So

17:28

it's such a new concept. But

17:31

I do think we're on the precipice of

17:33

the golden age of tabletop

17:35

role-playing games. And this is part of it.

17:38

I think so too. I mean, what a cool side hustle.

17:41

If you were a college student and you're just

17:43

like, I got to make some extra money. I'm not

17:45

going to

17:45

mow a lawn. I'm going to run a D&D game. I

17:48

don't have classes Tuesday afternoon, so I'll just

17:51

run some D&D games. Very

17:53

cool.

17:54

That's the use case. I think that's going on there now. But

17:56

I love that what you're saying is

17:58

making almost a... enough

18:00

to be considered a living. That's

18:05

actually possible, if not probable at this

18:07

time.

18:09

Yes, that absolutely. It's

18:13

just friction to start playing is what

18:15

it is. And

18:18

people are like, sometimes they're intimidated.

18:23

Sometimes they just don't know how to start. I

18:26

think that's a good idea. I

18:30

think it's just a good

18:32

idea for the tools to make it easier

18:35

to play. I have these dice, which is the

18:37

simplest idea, but the dice

18:39

I have are learn to play dice, and they're all different

18:41

colors. Because

18:43

I noticed at the table, one of the most frustrating things

18:45

is like roll the d20, and everyone always grabs the d12 and they get

18:47

flustered. Grab the white d6, grab the yellow

18:50

d4, and that is just one

18:52

tiny change makes it so much easier

18:54

to learn how to play.

18:56

It really does. Rather than describing,

18:58

it's the one that looks like a diamond, or it's

19:02

a triangle pyramid thing.

19:05

You're not having to make up

19:08

shapes. The nouns

19:11

that refer to shapes is not the thing. It's

19:13

the colors that are instantly. Even

19:17

just the way you said it, it's not just the red die or the white

19:19

die. No, it's the white

19:21

d6, it's the red d20, so that you associate

19:23

those in your brain.

19:25

Exactly. I

19:28

want to figure something else out for folks that are color blind. I

19:31

haven't figured that out yet. I

19:34

need to look more into it, but that's just at least a first

19:36

step in making it easier.

19:38

You also have a player mat.

19:40

What can you tell us about that to try to make it a little bit easier?

19:43

I love those for say Magic the Gathering, when you're teaching

19:45

people how to put

19:47

your cards out in front of you. Sometimes

19:50

the hardest part to kind of understand or learn,

19:52

and so having a mat that maps

19:55

where you're supposed to put

19:57

stuff is really helpful. How does this work

19:59

for you? for fifth edition D&D.

20:01

I made this for our total

20:04

party chill. I made this as like a player aid

20:06

for the, because we have a lot of new people

20:08

come on that are like great personalities, but they've

20:10

never played before. We have these mats. And

20:12

then for my long time players who, you know, still

20:15

are casting, trying to cast two spells in the same turn. Still?

20:19

Still. It's been nine years, people. I

20:22

think they're in on it. I think it's a running joke with them. They're

20:27

like giant mouse pads, like giant gaming mouse

20:29

pads, just like the kind of use for, you

20:31

know, a magic gathering, but

20:33

they have the 5E rules on them. So it's like, hey,

20:36

here's how combat works. Here's how spell casting works. Here's

20:38

how movement and cover area

20:40

of effect. And it's so often

20:42

now I just see players like kind of like in

20:44

between the turns like reading, so it's like, okay. Oh

20:47

yeah. And like I could see the gears turning because

20:50

it's something you can roll your dice on. It's something you can

20:52

have everything on. But then I asked

20:54

like, hey, I just asked TikTok, like,

20:56

would you guys want to buy this? And

20:59

I was like, oh my gosh, I guess I'll start making

21:01

these. Yeah. For sure. Wow.

21:04

And it borrows the idea from board games, because I think that,

21:07

and card games, right? Because I think board games that

21:10

use mats for, you

21:12

know, to put in front of the player, and that's where you put

21:15

the other, you know, physical

21:17

items that the board game has, like those two

21:19

are so much easier to teach to other

21:22

people than not, right? Because there's little

21:25

wonderful graphic design notes that let you not

21:27

just read text, but like, oh, visually,

21:30

this is where this goes. And sometimes it's hard. I mean, I know if

21:32

you have experience playing wingspan. Oh

21:34

yes. Right?

21:35

So I think it does it really well by having the

21:38

iconography stay consistent throughout,

21:40

but it takes a moment to click.

21:42

Yeah. And once it does, then you kind of, yep,

21:44

that's next. And it builds like a, it's almost like a muscle

21:47

memory building device. True.

21:49

Yeah. So I'm looking for more of

21:52

that. And now I'm going to look into this player

21:55

mat to see if it'll be good. Don't worry. Some

21:57

of my kids on board. Sweet.

23:56

Love

24:01

gamers. Well,

24:03

tell us about some of the shows that you have

24:06

a total party chill.

24:07

So the one I'm most excited to

24:09

talk about is the one that is releasing

24:12

at the end of this month. It's called This Game

24:14

is Cursed. And it

24:17

comes from my deep love of the Dungeons and

24:19

Dragons cartoon. And

24:22

it also comes from the best

24:24

humor that comes out of my players is the

24:26

meta. Yeah, and when

24:28

they reference things that are outside of the fantasy

24:30

world. So this game is cursed is the

24:33

concept that my players

24:35

as themselves have been sucked into the world of

24:37

D&D, but they are in the bodies

24:39

of the characters that their character

24:41

was. So Lana

24:44

goes from, you know, a

24:47

five foot eight to

24:50

the six foot two ripped barbarian

24:52

woman. You know,

24:55

my friend Nate, he turns into, you know, of course,

24:57

a Tiefling. He looks terrified, but he's the nicest

24:59

person ever because he has like this, you

25:01

know, vengeful rogue look. And

25:05

it definitely has like the D&D cartoon meets like

25:07

Dungeons and Daddies. But the idea is like they're just

25:09

playing as themselves, not as

25:12

dads. And the fun comes that they can reference

25:14

the tropes that they know about fantasy. Yeah.

25:18

So it's got a little bit of a Jumanji in it.

25:19

Yeah. Yeah. That's

25:22

such a cool

25:22

idea. So that's a six part miniseries that

25:25

we're releasing. And it was one of

25:29

my favorite campaigns I ever got to run.

25:32

I take that because it is

25:35

part of what I love about Dungeons and Dragons, where

25:38

the experience around the table is

25:40

two experiences smashed together, which is why

25:43

it's so compelling for us as humans, right? Because

25:45

it is the storytelling, the fantasy, it is whatever

25:48

the agreed upon narrative is.

25:50

But it's also a group of friends getting

25:52

together and having their fun. And

25:55

those are not dissimilar

25:59

experiences.

25:59

They must be happening at the same time in order

26:02

for it to be... I think if you were

26:04

just doing one, you'd be playing a video

26:06

game, and if you were just doing hanging out with friends, you're just

26:08

chilling and there's no game thing in it. But it

26:11

is the melding of those two that come together.

26:13

Yeah, exactly. That makes it amazing.

26:15

And it's fun when you

26:17

have to act as if you found

26:19

yourself in an actual D&D world, how stoked would

26:21

you be when you found out that you could do magic? Yes.

26:25

You know?

26:26

Exactly. How stoked

26:28

would you be, Shelly, to be with that? I would be so... ...to

26:30

be the best mage hand on everything. Oh my God.

26:32

It's all I would do all day. So

26:34

tell us, you said this

26:37

was one of your favorite campaigns to run. What

26:40

are some of the highlights of it?

26:42

Or can you speak? Well, maybe you can't

26:44

spoil because it hasn't aired yet. We

26:46

brought in two people

26:47

that have always wanted

26:49

to play D&D, but never had the chance to. Right

26:52

there. And it's always good to have a

26:54

fish out of water character so that

26:57

they can be informed

27:00

on like, well, okay. Because there's one gimmick

27:02

that we have is people know when they've leveled

27:04

up and they hear a sound and they can

27:06

reach in their bag and they have a physical character sheet

27:09

to reference. And they're like, oh, this is... We've

27:11

leveled up. After killing

27:14

that out there. Okay. Okay.

27:16

So we get it. So when they can reference

27:18

those things and start to kind of make clues,

27:21

that's been really, really funny when they're like the frustration

27:23

of like, it's XP, not milestone.

27:26

What's going on? Who

27:30

plays like this anymore? Yeah. So

27:33

it was fun. We leaned on a lot of like

27:35

old fantasy tropes to let

27:37

our players kind

27:40

of make fun of and

27:43

poke fingers at, which

27:45

is great when you have like the old

27:47

wizard, the evil troll, the fun goblin.

27:50

And interacting that as if you were a real person,

27:53

it just created for a lot of levity and fun.

27:56

That's great. Yes. As you being

27:58

a fan of the D&D cartoon. which

28:00

has that famous opening when

28:02

they're just normal teenagers in the 80s going

28:05

on a roller coaster. The Dungeons and Dragons

28:07

roller coaster, which I always wished existed. I know.

28:10

There's a part of me that was like, does it?

28:12

I just kind of assumed it was somewhere. Me

28:14

too. Maybe it is. Maybe it

28:16

is. It's in LA. We just haven't found

28:18

it. It's in Hollywood somewhere, of course. But

28:21

then they get trapped and they go to the D&D universe, or

28:25

a version of the D&D multiverse, right? Yeah.

28:28

Now, have you seen D&D Honor Among Thieves, the

28:31

movie? Oh my gosh. You

28:33

kidding me? I was so stoked to see that

28:35

movie and it was so much fun.

28:37

But did you grok that there was a visual?

28:40

That they were me? They were us. They

28:42

were older though, right? They were a little bit more different.

28:45

So what's your head cannon? Did

28:47

they escape and come back?

28:50

So you know

28:52

there's the unofficial ending that someone made on

28:54

YouTube. Yes, I've seen that. Right? So

28:57

I was like, okay, that's how it ended. And I was like, you

28:59

know what? I like this as a... Look

29:02

at this. Isn't it crazy that these

29:04

people exist? But my head cannon is

29:06

when they were transported, they were transported

29:08

into those characters that exist

29:10

in the D&D world. So they took on

29:12

the affect of them. So

29:15

it's like if I transported and I became, you know, a

29:17

wolf-gar. And so

29:19

those are just like characters that exist. But now

29:22

Dragon of Icespire Peak also had those characters. And I

29:24

was like, there's gonna be so much... I'm picking

29:26

away just like the obelisk mystery, you

29:28

all. I'm like, there's clues. I

29:31

got the Wizkid minis of them. I'm following this.

29:34

I got a murder board with red strings

29:36

somewhere. Of the three

29:38

of you, Jared. They're popping up everywhere.

29:41

What?

29:43

Why couldn't they have just aged

29:46

if they were transported into

29:48

the world? Well, that's mean that they stay there. Yeah,

29:51

which means they stayed there. Yeah. Maybe

29:53

they liked it. Maybe they did. It's

29:55

funny. It makes me wonder... I think

29:58

the reason I don't head cannon that...

29:59

is because I like the idea that the D&D

30:02

world isn't a fictional

30:05

property. Like

30:07

it's a real, and that's just like maybe

30:09

my own selfishness, but the idea that like they

30:11

weren't transported into a game

30:13

that

30:16

this is just a real world that exists that I, you know.

30:19

It's just one shard of the multiverse in which our

30:22

world is just another shard of it. So

30:25

you're saying that when the,

30:27

in the D&D cartoon, the high school kids,

30:30

when they went into the D&D world, that

30:32

they didn't, that was not

30:34

the first introduction to those characters in the D&D world,

30:36

they just embodied those characters. Exactly.

30:39

That's my head cannon.

30:40

And I, but why do they look the same?

30:43

Yeah. Maybe that's

30:45

why they were chosen. They were chosen because

30:49

they looked so similar. Finally,

30:51

it's like, oh my gosh, the perfect mix of

30:53

people, creeds, backgrounds.

30:56

We can finally do this magic.

30:58

So like Greg, when I went to

31:00

that event at my son's school, there

31:03

was a guy there that looked literally just

31:05

like Greg Tito. Like all of us were like, why

31:07

would Greg be here? And even I sent a pic, I like

31:10

took a picture of him. How creepy is that? Sent it to

31:12

Greg. He was like, that is me. But if

31:14

that guy was in a different universe

31:17

and you were being transported, like you would

31:19

inhabit his body, obviously, because

31:22

he looks just like you or

31:23

vice versa, or maybe it's already happened and

31:25

maybe you are him or he's you. I don't

31:28

even know who I'm talking to right now. What's

31:30

happening? That guy is now

31:33

another co-host of Dragon Time. Yeah.

31:36

He's the co-host of Dungeon Talk.

31:38

Dungeon Talk? Yes. Yeah,

31:40

it's like a... No, no, no, no. We're not talking about Dungeons.

31:42

We're talking about dragons here. Yes. You're

31:45

on the wrong show, sir. You're on the wrong show.

31:47

Well, my head cannon for those characters is that

31:50

they did that. They went into

31:52

the

31:53

Greyhawk-ish world that was

31:55

the cartoon. They left at the

31:57

end, but they were

31:59

not happy. happy in the real world. And

32:03

as they grew up a little bit, they wanted to go back. And

32:05

the only way they could figure out how to go back was

32:07

they went back to the Forgotten Realms, which is why now

32:09

we see them popping up in the Forgotten Realms

32:11

and not Great Rock. What if they left

32:13

Greyhawk and ended up

32:15

in the Forgotten Realms? They're like, wait, this is home? Damn

32:19

it. Oh, yeah. Okay. You

32:21

can come back, but I don't know where you're going to get dropped. They're

32:24

just world hopping to all of the different

32:27

D&D properties, right? So

32:29

in your mind, how do you think they got back? Did

32:32

they have to go back on the roller coaster or

32:34

did they just did they bring

32:36

some artifact with them from when they were there?

32:39

I think there is a D&D

32:41

movie that needs to be set in our world

32:43

with those characters trying to find some way to

32:45

get back. Like that roller coaster is definitely demolished,

32:47

right? It doesn't exist anymore. So they

32:49

have to find something else Jumanji like to get

32:51

them, you know, go into the wardrobe and

32:53

go back to Narnia.

32:54

I think we need a new D&D animated cartoon. I

32:57

think this is the time. I think we're pitching it right now.

32:59

I don't know if you know that. I actually really do like the

33:01

idea. It would be like a John Hughes

33:03

kind of teen comedy about

33:06

those characters dropping back

33:08

into like a high

33:10

school in the Chicago suburbs and they

33:13

have to like mesh with like

33:16

the breakfast club basically. Maybe

33:18

Lake Geneva. It's actually like a Lake Geneva

33:20

suburb of Chicago. And

33:22

they're wearing their inappropriate clothes and

33:25

there are people are like, why is it? It's with the

33:27

fur, dude. Yeah. And

33:30

now they're a little bit older too. So now Bobby's like a real big

33:33

buff, like, you know, every teenager now

33:36

and you know, the

33:38

other characters are early twenties. Yeah,

33:41

right. He's actually doing like up

33:43

close magic. We

33:47

took a long time to practice this. Yeah.

33:50

Oh my

33:50

God. I like this idea, you guys.

33:52

I know. I think we're on to something.

33:54

It's cool. I mean, the jumping point off was

33:56

you describing this game as cursed, which is, I

33:59

think you're your interpretation and

34:02

reimagining of that idea

34:04

that it's, as you said, the tropes that have captivated

34:06

us for so long of like going into another world

34:09

is what makes this so fun.

34:11

Right. All right, let me ask you both a question.

34:13

Yeah. What world would you

34:16

be transported into, if you could choose?

34:18

Star Trek. I knew you were gonna say that. Oh,

34:20

Scares To See Society. Don't have

34:22

time to work for money. Just follow your passions.

34:25

It's the best outcome. It's the best one.

34:27

It's a utopia. I...

34:30

I don't know. Is this a thing

34:32

I would be desired of, or what would make a good story?

34:35

Because I feel like a good story would

34:37

be me being transported into like

34:39

the world of Vanderpump Rules

34:42

or whatever. And I'd

34:44

be like,

34:44

nah! That would be amazing.

34:46

You would end up in Andy Cohen's body. That would be hilarious.

34:49

Oh my God, Greg hosting a reunion. Yeah,

34:52

and I'd be like, this is stupid. Why are any of you like this? Why

34:54

don't you just talk to each other? Get a real job!

34:58

What's wrong with you? Conflict

35:00

resolution. That's what I would do. I just... I

35:03

feel too many people are just like...

35:05

I feel like we don't see it in a lot of D&D, but I feel

35:07

so many people are like, what happened to Daniel? I

35:10

was like, ah, you know that merchant

35:12

caravan? Trolls. It

35:16

just feels like it's too easy to just get written

35:18

off the board. It

35:21

fell off the mountain, right? There was a... There

35:24

was no guardrails. There was no clerics in

35:26

town, and we don't really know a lot about medicine yet.

35:30

It was a small demon inside them. Or cancer.

35:32

We don't know. I was like, I'm going to get organ-trailed

35:35

and die of dysentery. There's

35:38

not enough dysentery in the D&D world, I don't

35:40

think. I know. Next book, we got

35:42

to put in dysentery rules. Yeah.

35:45

Homebrew it. You can make it up.

35:47

Where would you go, Shelley, if you could decide which world to

35:49

go into? I would like to go to

35:51

Zootopia. Oh. I

35:53

would just land up just where there's

35:55

a bunch of...

35:56

personified animals, then I could just hang

35:59

out there. the that and it's so pretty

36:01

yeah well

36:02

that be a fun one

36:04

near good resembled a deity

36:06

a regular basis a ladder you want to be a taxi

36:08

and hang out with with give so

36:11

it could i go back as a to backseat

36:13

to have to go back as like this weird awkward human

36:17

oh well as your children how much attention to one

36:19

bright girl human it like what are you

36:22

a hint wow a

36:24

i think i'd rather be an animal yeah

36:28

i had a be which one which one would you be that's

36:32

i think maybe a llama

36:34

lung a

36:37

lot of emperor's new groove vibes of and

36:39

ah the or

36:41

act

36:42

as earning an otter has otters

36:44

are so cute but i think i'd

36:46

rather be some a little be fear no

36:49

no auto sense guardians

36:51

galaxy three i know that's where my

36:54

mind went there like all give that it's

36:56

too early to your email but oh

36:58

no oh no friends

37:00

are great to have another

37:02

say this like a live on the precipice

37:05

of just like crying at a big emotional because

37:07

of how charge that movie just like dejected

37:10

you you just

37:11

like i'm i'm one soldier coming

37:14

home from war to to greet his dog

37:16

away from palestine didn't know i am

37:19

for me it's like i'm i'm one tv

37:21

commercial and which dad sees a daughter

37:23

growing up or i'm like oh god no

37:25

ads on at driver mrl ah

37:29

okay every time every

37:31

time

37:32

i one procter gamble commercial way to raise

37:35

your daughter for the olympic away from a

37:38

guy that up

37:40

yesterday i brought my kid to the park

37:43

to meet his friend and

37:45

i was like oh there he is and he is

37:47

like stop i got

37:49

this stop bomb you can't

37:52

keep walking sap turn around

37:54

like

37:55

wow literally this morning

37:57

i did walk you all the way

37:59

to me your friend. Like, how does this happening?

38:02

So hard. That's crazy. And part

38:04

of me is like, God, just go to the park by yourself

38:06

and meet a friend. And then the other part

38:08

was like, but take me with you, but

38:10

need me. Oh,

38:13

sorry.

38:15

That never gets old. How do we, how do we get

38:17

more? I mean, this is just a random

38:20

question I'm just thinking of as we're discussing

38:22

this, but there isn't a lot of,

38:24

um,

38:25

like the, the parenting

38:27

emotions in D&D

38:30

was thinking about what

38:32

would you, if your child was an adventurer,

38:34

like how would you send them on? Like just knowing

38:37

the crazy shit we get up to in our

38:39

adventures, right? Our heroes

38:41

have parents, maybe somewhere. You

38:44

did that on the trope is they're all bad play.

38:46

We don't talk, you know,

38:49

like lineage play, like, um, you know,

38:51

you've, you've, you've played your character. Now

38:53

they're retired. And now like the last episode

38:55

is like 10 years later, sending your kid

38:57

off, uh, on their

38:59

own adventure. Yeah. Oh, that is great.

39:01

For like the long standing campaigns or people who have, yeah,

39:04

like, okay. And then the, the, the generations.

39:07

Uh, yes.

39:07

Have you ever

39:09

played in a party

39:11

where like you were a parent of

39:13

one of the other adventures or vice versa?

39:17

Um, I've had, I've had that in my group and,

39:19

uh, I really liked it. It was, it was the, um, kind

39:21

of like a helicopter parent. Um,

39:24

that was like, well, if you're going to adventuring, I'm going to

39:26

do not

39:28

pick up that sword. And it

39:30

was one of those things where like the, the

39:32

kid was like, who thinks my mom is so

39:34

cool. And like, cause they were just like a helpful

39:36

mom. It was like just so frustrated

39:39

by it. But like the moment that

39:41

the mom got in trouble, it was like, mama, uh,

39:43

it was like,

39:45

Oh, that's big time. Oh, now

39:47

I'm sad. I couldn't

39:51

let Quinn see me like that. Where

39:54

you were in danger.

39:55

Yeah. It was, uh, there was a,

39:57

uh, the mom was a paladin. Um,

39:59

Of course. As moms are.

40:02

With some like, you know, home brew, like a

40:04

oath of parentage. Like their oath

40:06

was just to keep their kids safe.

40:09

Oh, so hard. You're destroying

40:12

Charlotte. On the eve of Mother's Day

40:14

as well. Yeah. Just thinking about

40:16

that. Wait, is Mother's Day coming up? Yes.

40:19

Uh-oh. Sunday. If

40:21

you're listening to this, it's already happened. If you didn't believe

40:23

it, you're already in trouble. Yeah,

40:25

your blood better have just run cold. Those

40:27

of you out there that are like, oh wait,

40:29

when did they record this? After

40:31

this call, I'm shippin' it. You're shippin'

40:33

it to your mom? Yeah. Yeah. Shippin'

40:36

it. Luckily, my wife, who is a mother as

40:39

well, it's taken me about 20

40:41

years of our relationship to be like,

40:43

I don't, she said this out loud

40:45

to someone else, unprompted by me, said,

40:49

you know, it's just one day. Why do

40:51

we need to do one, Greg cherishes me every

40:53

day. It's not about one day where he has to

40:55

do X, Y, and Z in order to be okay.

40:59

So you excel so good at being

41:01

her kid

41:02

that now Mother's Day has

41:04

no meaning because you are that

41:06

good of a child. Wait, was this your wife or

41:08

your mother? Yeah, this is not for my mom because

41:10

that's a very different story. That's very different.

41:13

My wife. So your kids are so good that. Exactly,

41:17

exactly. Well,

41:18

Aaron is so evolved.

41:20

I would never say that, never.

41:24

I think it's only because we're on like, we like

41:26

each other so much. You know, every relationship is

41:29

ebbs and flows. We're in one of those.

41:30

Yeah, the high, all right. I think

41:32

that has a lot to do with it. If it was the other way around,

41:35

she'd be like, no, you better give me a photo. Do

41:37

you think you worship me today? Cherish

41:42

was the word I use, worship. Very different.

41:44

Whatever. Tomato, tomato.

41:49

I love that kind of thing though, in

41:52

using emotions that we kind of don't always

41:54

associate with fantasy storytelling and bring

41:57

them to, we've talked about the tropes and stuff, but I

41:59

feel like there's so much.

41:59

much more breadth of real emotion

42:02

in the way we do storytelling now. Have

42:05

you noticed that trend from when you started playing?

42:07

Because

42:10

when I started playing it was all about let's go

42:12

out and kill stuff, make it cool. That's

42:15

middle school, high school. But

42:18

now there's just other emotions that we want to explore.

42:21

Sometimes those are sad and sometimes those are happy. People

42:25

get so much enjoyment around, cool, we all got together.

42:28

The beach episodes, everyone should

42:30

do a beach game. I

42:33

think Avatar the Last Airbender did it best

42:36

when they did their beach episode. But I

42:38

feel like that clicked with a lot of players. We

42:40

should have a beach episode.

42:42

What is it like when

42:44

we're just

42:45

enjoying each other? It's

42:47

fun to see those different types of emotions

42:50

played out with a party and

42:52

explore more outside of the

42:55

thrill of high fantasy.

42:57

Is that what your definition of a beach episode

42:59

is? It's just folks who are in

43:01

their happy zone and not necessarily

43:04

having the high stakes of death and

43:06

destruction around each corner. Downtime.

43:08

Like the table stakes.

43:11

Does someone forget the sandwiches? There's the

43:14

cooler. That

43:18

happens a lot on below, by the way. It

43:21

does? They always are

43:23

like, where's the cooler with the drinks? Oh

43:26

no, it's back in the boat. When they

43:28

do a beach episode.

43:31

Each time. See? It all ties in.

43:36

You also make the convention

43:39

circuit as well? Yes. You've

43:41

given some talks on some very interesting topics.

43:43

Let's discuss. The future

43:45

of tabletop,

43:47

where it's going. I'm always interested in the

43:49

new things I'm seeing come out of gaming. Whether

43:52

it's new virtual tabletops

43:55

or whether it's how technology

43:58

is changing. the way we

44:00

play, we've seen a ton of people like, you

44:02

know, the fact that the internet exists is one of the reasons

44:04

why tabletop gaming and D&D is more

44:06

popular because the accessibility to be able to play

44:09

people that don't have groups near them can play online.

44:12

So as we find new technology

44:15

or new ways that like we interact, it

44:17

becomes really important. You know, one of the biggest

44:20

problems facing us today is loneliness.

44:23

As the world kind of shuts us out from

44:25

each other as community is harder to get. Things

44:29

like tabletop gaming and Dungeons and

44:31

Dragons, those are things that like build community

44:33

and connect people. And that's

44:36

why I think we are going to enter like

44:38

the golden age of like D&D and tabletop

44:40

is because people are starting

44:43

to realize that and it's sticky for a reason,

44:45

you know, like when people play the first time and the light

44:47

happens and they're excited to play and it becomes like their

44:49

whole personality right off the bat. Like that's

44:52

because like as adults, we don't really get

44:54

to use our imagination collectively

44:57

with other people. We use our imagination to read a book

44:59

or like solve a problem at work. But when you're like, I'm

45:01

sitting around a table with four friends and we're solving

45:03

a problem with our imaginations that

45:06

is about like how to make this Duke like

45:08

us by performing a, you know,

45:11

a monologue for them. It takes you to the different world

45:13

and it provides something that like we desperately

45:15

didn't have when we were young or that we didn't

45:17

have since we were young. I dig that. I mean,

45:20

and it's so opposite

45:22

of what I was told growing up, which

45:24

was,

45:25

yeah. Oh yeah. The people who play Dungeons and

45:27

Dragons don't have any friends. I was like, that

45:29

is not true. It's past. They have

45:32

at least four. Yeah. It's

45:34

patently false. It always was. It was

45:36

this strange idea that, I

45:39

mean, even, you know, my

45:42

sister will sometimes say that, oh, just the people

45:44

I know just didn't seem like they were very happy. I was like to

45:47

you maybe, I bet they were having a lot

45:49

of fun when they were playing. Yeah.

45:52

Yeah. You will always have stories that

45:54

you're going to tell. And there's that thing where

45:57

the, our brains think we're making new.

45:59

physical memories because of

46:02

the imagination is used. So it's also keeping you young.

46:05

It's keeping those brain snaps as firing as you explore

46:08

new worlds. I say that about games all the time.

46:11

Playing chess, playing all

46:13

those strategic

46:15

games, and D&D is one of them, that

46:18

just keeps those new synapses growing and firing. It's

46:21

going to keep us as cogent as we

46:23

can as we get older. Yeah, spry,

46:25

if you will. That's

46:28

why I also lift while playing D&D. Yeah, exactly,

46:30

always. Do some squats. Yeah. When

46:34

I beat the entire family at Mario Kart, I'm

46:36

telling you that euphoria carries me

46:39

throughout the day.

46:39

Hold on to that, right? I

46:42

do. I can do anything.

46:45

You are the lizard king. And

46:49

that's how I feel when I win at trivia as well, when

46:51

I'm like, oh, I know. Oh, great

46:53

segues. King

46:54

of the segues. It's

46:57

true, because I love having all this

46:59

useless knowledge in my head and being able to draw

47:02

it out at the right moment in order to

47:04

score points is important. And

47:06

yeah, you, Devin, have some

47:08

history with that. Yeah, I started

47:09

back in 2019, I

47:12

started running a D&D trivia

47:15

game show online. And I

47:17

found this great software that I use. So if you're a viewer, you could

47:19

come and you could enter the room, kind of

47:21

like a Jackbox game, but you could play

47:23

trivia against everyone else.

47:25

And it's

47:26

all timed. So you have to be fast. You

47:28

don't have time to Google it. And

47:31

it became this thing where I got to learn more about the

47:33

lore of D&D and

47:36

like, oh, I'm going to do a spell jam. I'm going to do this. And

47:39

Jordan, the pH is silent. I would go and watch

47:41

his videos, and then I'd write a bunch of questions

47:43

about it. And then I'd

47:46

run that trivia. And it was a fun thing

47:48

to do, especially when the pandemic hit. It was a really

47:50

fun activity. But now, every

47:52

convention I go to, I end up getting to run it. And

47:54

it's cool because like, you know, 100, 200 people show

47:56

up to play Dungeons and Dragons trivia.

47:59

Oh, my

47:59

God. Oh my gosh. All right, I want you

48:01

to maybe quiz

48:03

Greg a little. Okay. Just

48:07

a couple of questions. I will tell if that's

48:09

wrong. What breath weapon does

48:11

a silver dragon have? Oh,

48:14

I know that and it is

48:16

frost.

48:19

Yes. I

48:21

was gonna say that. That one gets a lot of people. I was gonna

48:23

say that. Yeah. Damn

48:25

it. You're smart too. I was trying to think, I was like, oh no, I

48:27

had to think of what the analog was for a chromatic

48:29

dragon. I'm like, oh yeah, their analog is white. That

48:31

makes sense.

48:32

What is the force for evil in

48:35

the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon?

48:38

Venger? Uni.

48:41

It

48:44

is venture. The way I originally

48:47

phrased it, a lot of people are like, oh, it's Tiamat.

48:49

It's Tiamat and you got

48:51

it. It's Venger, yeah. Venger is the force of evil in

48:53

the D&D cartoon. Tiamat is just an

48:56

evil thing inside of it.

48:58

What year did

49:01

the Dungeons and Dragons pinball machine come

49:03

out? My God. Wow,

49:05

all right. So it was 74 is when the

49:07

first thing was published. So it's

49:10

after that, when was pinball

49:13

the most popular and when was all the licensing happening

49:15

in TSR? Oh, see

49:17

that's much later than I was gonna guess. I'm thinking, I think 1979.

49:22

Whoa!

49:25

We were both really early. What?

49:29

I got that one. Actually, I got that one from Nerd

49:31

Immersion,

49:32

Ted

49:34

at Nerd Immersion. So when I started

49:36

doing trivia, other people, I got a great one

49:38

for you.

49:39

Oh, nice. Another one is I'll

49:42

give you a three line synopsis of a

49:44

movie,

49:45

but I've Dungeons and Dragons

49:47

the movie.

49:48

Oh, what? Oh, those are fun. So you have to then

49:50

like, okay, so a bard

49:53

is abducted by a thieves guild and

49:55

then is being chased

49:57

down by an evil paladin.

49:59

He's caught by two bounty

50:02

hunters, a druid and a artificer.

50:04

Wow.

50:05

This is the opening to what movie? What?

50:07

This is Indiana Jones. Gotta use the

50:09

galaxy. Oh, okay.

50:10

Quail the Bard,

50:13

kidnapped by a thieves guild, which is the

50:15

raveners, and then a druid, Groot, and

50:18

an artificer, Rocket, and

50:20

an evil paladin, Ronan. All right.

50:23

That was brevity. I usually workshop it a lot

50:25

more to make it really concise. So it

50:27

can't be everything. It's so cool.

50:30

You know, like an artificer is captured, and

50:32

while imprisoned, they create a... Iron

50:35

Man. Yep. You

50:41

had me an artificer captured. I was like, oh,

50:44

I think I got it.

50:46

Yeah. That's awesome. Those are really

50:48

fun. I've realized when the pandemic

50:50

hit, like many of us, you know, trivia was

50:53

a thing that people went to in addition to

50:55

playing Dungeons and Dragons, a whole bunch. And

50:58

there are people who just are not good

51:00

at writing trivia questions, I will say.

51:03

There are just ones where you're like, ah, you know,

51:06

you don't give me enough context clues. And

51:08

it's like me. Yeah. Yeah.

51:11

And I realized that's what like the Jeopardy writers

51:13

do very well in how they

51:16

write their answers to their questions, even though their

51:18

questions to their answers. But

51:20

it's not just, you don't even just know one

51:22

piece of information. They usually give you hints

51:25

within the answer in order

51:27

to do that. And I think you did that very well with

51:30

both of those. Obviously, there's ones where you're like, hey, what's

51:32

this date? Yeah. But there

51:34

are ones where you're like, all right, that's

51:36

why I talked it through is because you're always

51:39

trying to find out, all right, where are the little pieces of information

51:41

that I can try to find to make this happen? And

51:43

that's a really hard skill to learn,

51:45

right? It's multiple choice too. So

51:48

that does help people. Oh, that helps.

51:50

I hate

51:52

it when people type something in wrong and they get

51:54

a typo and they get it wrong because they typed it

51:57

in wrong. That's so fun. Oh man,

51:58

Kings West, man. D&D words. That's

52:02

hard. You could actually do a D&D

52:04

spelling test. I think we did that once at a tax.

52:07

Oh my gosh. We did D&D spelling test. You

52:11

can take that, Devin.

52:14

I have D&D Oregon Trail, D&D spelling

52:16

test.

52:17

D&D Oregon Trail, D&D,

52:20

D&D and D&D and D&D. I'm gonna

52:22

do D&D math problems next. Okay,

52:25

so Greg the Paladin

52:27

has a level five smite. If

52:29

he's attacking on his second turn, having used

52:31

the smite like a...

52:33

Oh yeah, how many spell slots does

52:35

this source have? Nobody wants this, but it sounds funny

52:37

to Nick. People, yes,

52:40

people would be into that. We were just talking about

52:42

this yesterday about teaching kids

52:44

math with like

52:45

area of effects and like who

52:48

cares about the... What were we

52:50

debating? It was like a 15 foot cone and

52:52

describing it like what's a rhombus? How

52:55

many goblins can you fit in

52:57

Greg's 15 foot cone? Greg's

53:00

using burning hands. Yes,

53:04

I mean, you gotta make learning fun, right? Yeah,

53:06

right, exactly. Okay,

53:09

so D&D trivia, this all sounds great. Is

53:11

this a minute still happening or only... Yeah,

53:13

it's still happening. The next one on

53:15

Twitch is Thursday. So if

53:17

this comes out on Wednesday, it's tomorrow. Oh, every

53:20

Thursday? Yeah, tomorrow, Thursday

53:22

once a month.

53:23

So yeah, it became a lot to write

53:25

every week. I was like, I'm gonna have to hire someone full

53:28

time. Now, I have hired someone that now writes questions for

53:30

me because it's better when

53:32

someone's really good at copy and they're like, I've reviewed

53:34

this six times. I'm like, cool.

53:38

Yeah, you don't want to do your own fact checking and

53:40

everything that ends up. Now,

53:42

if only we could do that for Dungeon Masters, right? Here's

53:46

my concept. You do the

53:49

copy of the legal out of text.

53:51

That's awesome. I love that. All

53:53

right, well, something else fun that you

53:55

also do. Yes. 10 minute

53:58

tabletop news.

53:59

table to have news. There's

54:02

so much ways to get news

54:04

about what's happening in gaming, but I feel like

54:07

I usually have to watch a 30-minute YouTube

54:09

video to get it. Or

54:12

I'm reading a quick article. But

54:15

I listen to UpFirst, the

54:18

best one yet, Snacks,

54:20

almost every day. And there are these great 10-minute

54:23

long, 15-minute long podcasts that are like,

54:26

hey, here's the biggest things.

54:28

And I was like, oh,

54:29

I like keeping up with news. And so this kind

54:31

of was like a little bit of a passion project. But so

54:33

many people I knew was like, I don't know what's happening. I don't

54:36

have time to read every article. I

54:38

was like, oh, okay, well, then here is

54:40

like a 10-minute snack

54:42

of the three biggest stories in tabletop.

54:45

It's like, what's happening this week? And you could easily

54:48

just like listen to that and like, okay, I know what's going

54:50

on. And then just get on with your day. It

54:52

only takes 10 minutes. I love that because

54:54

I had a similar show when I was at

54:56

the Escapist called the Escapist News

54:59

Network. And we would just do 10-minute

55:01

videos. We didn't do it every day. We

55:03

did it every week. But it was like, here's the

55:05

three to four biggest stories

55:08

in video games.

55:09

And that was really hard to

55:12

even produce on a weekly basis. Yeah. Oh, because

55:14

weekly is tough

55:17

still because you have to make

55:19

it entertaining. I think if you just did

55:21

it like a straight up newscast, people would

55:23

be like, this is boring. You had to like build in jokes

55:26

and entertaining bits. And

55:29

that is hard when it's your, the

55:31

host and writer and

55:34

doing it all yourself. Like

55:36

they have on the Daily Show. It's much different. I

55:38

do have a wonderful co host,

55:39

Darren Wood. And I think

55:41

the big thing we focus on is like, this is the news,

55:43

but why is it important? That

55:46

is, yeah.

55:47

You got to have some editorializing with

55:50

it because. Oh, wow. I didn't

55:52

even realize that. And

55:54

giving those insights. Recently

55:58

there's a Kickstarter, Kobo.

57:59

that let's keep him like this, but that

58:02

is a flat story. And I think

58:04

that characters need to change. And an

58:07

android side, you know, an android changing,

58:11

I think is necessary for stories

58:13

sometimes. I think that is what made

58:16

his arc impactful.

58:18

I respectfully disagree. I knew I could

58:20

tell by your face, like the rebuttal. To

58:23

me, the character that makes it

58:25

interesting is that he is an android

58:28

that is probably more human

58:30

than any other character on the

58:32

show. Ooh. And so by taking

58:35

that away,

58:36

there's nothing interesting about that character anymore.

58:38

Like I agree with you that characters need growth

58:41

and they need to change.

58:42

I liked it when his growth was like, oh,

58:44

I learned this little thing about humanity

58:47

that I didn't understand before and now I understand

58:49

it. And like those were smaller arcs. To have

58:51

him just be like, oh, you're just like

58:54

every other character on this ship.

58:56

That was a little bit like where I pulled the punch where I was like,

58:58

well, you totally disarmed what made this

59:00

character interesting to me.

59:02

So I agree with you in the sense that like, to

59:04

make that kind of jump, it would have been better

59:06

if it was over time rather

59:09

than like snap of a finger. Yeah.

59:12

Because I do think like- As like one

59:14

eighth of an episode, because there's

59:16

the way the screen time is split. I know. Instead

59:19

of like, you know, 22 episodes,

59:23

22 minutes each for an entire season, we get like, all right, you get six

59:25

episodes. They're an hour each. Yeah. Okay.

59:29

Totally. But I love, I mean, so that's what the kind of,

59:31

that's what the breath of D&D, just to bring it back to D&D, it's

59:33

like you can have those types of characters with Warforged

59:36

and I love how that tool

59:39

in storytelling can be used

59:41

and explored.

59:43

Yeah. I love the stoic

59:46

on Emotionalist Warforged. It's one

59:49

of my favorite like NPCs to run. The

59:51

one that just doesn't get, it takes

59:53

everything literal and, you know, it

59:56

feels so flat. I have one that

59:58

he has a group of maps.

59:59

around him that are like kind

1:00:02

of like the smiling mask, sad mask from theater. To

1:00:04

like help to help make him

1:00:07

look more personable to people. He's like, this

1:00:09

is good news, right? And then I guess, and then he just

1:00:11

like puts on the smiling one. Oh.

1:00:13

And

1:00:15

everyone loves it because he's like, he's like, wait, are we upset about

1:00:17

this? And he has to be like, it's on the sad mask.

1:00:20

I'm just like you. I am angry. He

1:00:22

just, because he knows

1:00:23

that it's important to people that he can

1:00:25

express emotion to them. So

1:00:28

he's got a little mask for emotion. That's

1:00:30

really

1:00:30

sweet. Reminds me of finding

1:00:34

Nemo when the fish

1:00:36

all form like behind them. Yeah. And

1:00:40

they were making fun of Nemo's dad. That

1:00:42

was

1:00:43

like my favorite. I forgot what they were saying.

1:00:46

It was my favorite part of the movie. But

1:00:48

anyway, it's a much cooler,

1:00:51

cuter version. And it was voiced by Cliff

1:00:53

from Cheers. Oh, that's fun.

1:00:56

John Ratzenberger was the school of fish,

1:00:58

I believe in that one.

1:00:59

Oh yeah. We

1:01:02

digress, but I love the everything we've talked about here. Like I

1:01:04

want to play the trivia. I

1:01:06

want to start learning more about tabletop

1:01:09

news and start playing as something

1:01:11

I've been like, you know, looking at a lot

1:01:13

and being like, oh, this game looks fun and this look looks

1:01:15

fun. Like there's just a wide

1:01:18

breadth of stuff that you do, Devin. And it

1:01:20

is awesome that you have

1:01:22

this opportunity to be able to...

1:01:25

Like I said, afterwards I'm going to get your info

1:01:27

on it. I'll send you guys some player mats as

1:01:29

well.

1:01:30

Oh, sweet. I can't wait. Because I

1:01:32

think that is just... As you're saying,

1:01:34

a lot of you is in your work creatively

1:01:37

in removing those barriers to playing

1:01:39

D&D. And I think that's been me and Shelley's

1:01:42

thesis statement for Dragon Talk all along. No,

1:01:45

right? Everybody should play this game because it is

1:01:47

a net good for humanity.

1:01:50

Absolutely. Yeah,

1:01:51

it's like you know what people

1:01:54

need before they need it. It's

1:01:56

just... And that's what a good

1:01:58

host does. Absolutely. Yeah,

1:02:01

I've noticed that too about, you know, I was,

1:02:03

I'm, I haven't mentioned it, but I've been thinking a lot about

1:02:06

what you said earlier in this interview of like, that's what a dungeon master

1:02:08

is. Like they are hosts

1:02:10

first and foremost, and then they are

1:02:12

a game master or, or a adjudicator

1:02:15

at the table. But in many ways, especially if you're

1:02:17

playing in person, it's like, no, come into my space. Do

1:02:19

you have any food? Do you need any water? There's

1:02:21

the

1:02:21

bathroom. And like managing the different people, like

1:02:24

making sure like, okay, this person need, should

1:02:26

sit next to this person because they have this thing

1:02:29

in common or just, you know, managing

1:02:31

the people relations and making sure the wine

1:02:33

glass is always full.

1:02:34

Yeah. It's been such a pleasure

1:02:36

chat with both of you. Like, just literally

1:02:39

from like the minute one, it's just, because

1:02:41

you opened with Shelley. Do you

1:02:44

watch Vanderpump rule? Whoa,

1:02:47

that Pandora's box was just open. Nobody's

1:02:49

ever asked me that before, Devin.

1:02:53

Well, Devin, where can people

1:02:55

find out about all of these various projects as

1:02:57

well as you personally? We want to direct them all

1:02:59

to find out your amazingness.

1:03:01

Yeah, you can find us a YouTube Twitch

1:03:03

just with Total Party Chill. You can

1:03:06

find me on Twitter at Devin Chulick,

1:03:08

D-V-O-N-C-H-U-L-I-C-K, but anything

1:03:11

from the Total Party Chill you can find via just googling

1:03:13

Total Party Chill. And same thing with start playing.

1:03:15

Awesome. Start playing. We're

1:03:18

making it happen. Yeah. And we mean that in every sense

1:03:20

of the word, start playing. It's

1:03:22

just a command. Just start playing. You

1:03:24

start playing. It's a spell. Bam. It's

1:03:28

got a huge... I do like that. It's a cantrip.

1:03:30

Yeah, right? Yes, well, start playing.

1:03:32

Thank you again, guys. I appreciate you having me. Thank

1:03:34

you. You're the best. You

1:03:37

are. My

1:03:39

face hurts from laughing so much.

1:03:42

That was fun. That

1:03:44

was a very... Gosh, Devin is

1:03:46

just a really nice, fun, easy person to talk

1:03:48

to. It's that host thing. It's

1:03:51

an idea that's going to be lodged in my brain a lot, how

1:03:53

Dungeon Masters are hosts, not

1:03:57

only to the physical space or the online

1:03:59

space.

1:05:42

Instagram.

1:06:01

Wow, I blame Zuggie for all of

1:06:03

that.

1:06:05

Wow, Zuggie. Not a

1:06:07

fun girl. That's why we're trained

1:06:09

voiceover actors because we

1:06:12

ruin our voices every time we try to do some

1:06:14

character.

1:06:15

Also, I don't think that is what Zuggie

1:06:17

would sound like. No, no,

1:06:20

she would be very much more elevated. I

1:06:22

just couldn't remember another...

1:06:24

Another demon

1:06:26

whose name I could pronounce, Jubelex.

1:06:29

Jubelex. Jubelex.

1:06:33

Gorp. Isn't

1:06:36

there one named Gorp? That's the giant escape from Dungeon Mayhem. Is

1:06:39

Gorp. Isn't there like... there's

1:06:41

one that begins with a G? Yeah,

1:06:44

Jubelex, right? No, G. That's

1:06:47

a J. Grazhed.

1:06:51

Grazhed. Yes,

1:06:53

yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Who is the

1:06:55

handsome boy. Demon

1:06:59

of seduction. I

1:07:01

do feel like

1:07:02

Zuggie would have been a better match for him.

1:07:05

Rather than an ooze.

1:07:08

The demon lord of oozes. She had

1:07:11

ulterior motives for sure. Oh,

1:07:13

totally. He's got all the money. Also,

1:07:16

I am reading an article, not right now, because

1:07:18

obviously I'm doing this, about

1:07:21

a middle school in Colorado Springs starting

1:07:24

a different kind of club focused on camaraderie,

1:07:26

teamwork, and friendship. And it's a

1:07:28

huge hit. The story coming

1:07:30

up after the break. Guess

1:07:33

what the club is. D&D?

1:07:34

Yes. All

1:07:37

over the news, people. D&D

1:07:40

in schools. Making

1:07:42

middle schoolers great. I

1:07:44

love it. And it

1:07:47

is something that has been, again, just what

1:07:49

we've been pushing for all along here

1:07:51

on Dragon Talk. More than 300 episodes, nearly 400. Nice.

1:07:55

But

1:07:57

only for the last 100 or 200. or

1:08:00

so has there been the adventures

1:08:02

of Drunky Two Shoes, which

1:08:05

we will continue now.

1:08:08

Let's. You were going to, you

1:08:10

had just convinced the guards, I believe,

1:08:13

to let you go and

1:08:15

travel to the crystals

1:08:18

that transport you to other worlds, and

1:08:21

the projection of

1:08:24

the speaker had told you to go to Menavarsha.

1:08:27

And so I believe you and your cohorts were heading

1:08:30

in that direction.

1:08:31

Yes, we are going to Menavarsha. All

1:08:34

right, so yeah, you walk, it's not too

1:08:36

far away from the entrance to

1:08:39

the preserver of the ancients,

1:08:42

but it is a full of commerce.

1:08:44

You were there just

1:08:46

a few hours ago as you were trying to find

1:08:49

these

1:08:50

folks who run this in

1:08:52

order to pay your toll. So you're

1:08:54

just going back to that area with

1:08:57

your cohorts, and it is still a glorious

1:08:59

day here outside in

1:09:01

the radiant citadel.

1:09:03

I have to pay my toll? This is where you went a

1:09:05

couple of seconds ago to pay your toll. But

1:09:07

now you're leaving the radiant citadel. When you

1:09:09

have to come back, you may have to pay.

1:09:11

Well, I hope that I don't have return

1:09:13

privileges. Everyone keep your receipts. Let's

1:09:15

just hold on to those. Jonathan says,

1:09:17

oh, yeah, what's a what

1:09:19

is a receipt? I'll

1:09:22

explain later. It is

1:09:24

a piece of paper that magic item

1:09:26

of some kind. Yes, sort of. It's

1:09:29

proof that that a transaction

1:09:31

was made and you

1:09:33

you have paid for services. That

1:09:35

is powerful magic indeed. It

1:09:37

is. And I just realized I

1:09:39

can do a minor illusion so I could probably

1:09:42

just make one appear.

1:09:43

Uh, unless of course, uh, one

1:09:46

of the guards is able to use detect

1:09:48

magic and know that your illusion was

1:09:50

false.

1:09:51

Correct. He's saying this kind of just conversationally

1:09:53

as you guys are walking. Kind of

1:09:55

a buzzkill, Jonathan, but you're

1:09:57

very literal. killed

1:10:00

many bees. Oh wow. When they try

1:10:02

to... Yeah. You know, sting me. Yeah

1:10:05

totally. Is that what you mean by a bus

1:10:07

kill? Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Can

1:10:10

someone please get us to Menavarsha? So

1:10:13

yes, as you arrive at the

1:10:16

crystals that go there and they're asking, all right

1:10:18

what is your destination?

1:10:19

Menavarsha. Menavarsha,

1:10:21

all right excellent. This one will leave in the

1:10:24

next few moments and you see

1:10:27

the large door kind

1:10:29

of magically disappear and dissipate and

1:10:32

inside there are...

1:10:35

it's empty and the few people who were

1:10:38

going to go to that area,

1:10:40

Menavarsha, kind of walk on and

1:10:42

the guard says, all right you're able to

1:10:45

board now. So cool. Okay and

1:10:47

so yeah it's a large, you know, it's a crystal

1:10:50

hollowed out. Once the... it's

1:10:52

not really a door, like I said, it just magically

1:10:55

the barrier of it dissipates away

1:10:58

and there are you know two or three folks

1:11:00

already on and as the rest of your

1:11:03

group comes on there's like a total of 10

1:11:06

individuals inside and

1:11:09

the guard who is running this crystal says, all right

1:11:12

is that everyone?

1:11:13

Last going, Menavarsha going once, going

1:11:16

twice, excellent, all right and

1:11:18

he moves his hand and the

1:11:21

crystal resumes in

1:11:24

a solid shape all around you. So you're in

1:11:26

this hollow crystal inside and

1:11:29

very soon after that it starts

1:11:31

to lift up into the air and

1:11:34

it's translucent. So the color of the crystal

1:11:36

is orange kind of amethyst

1:11:39

colored

1:11:40

and so you're seeing all of

1:11:43

the landscape of the radiant

1:11:46

citadel in like this orange

1:11:49

tint beneath you as

1:11:51

the crystal rises up.

1:11:52

That's so cool. Altaea

1:11:55

says, yeah you've never traveled in one? How did you even

1:11:57

arrive here? I don't know. I

1:12:00

just showed up in a bar. Interesting.

1:12:03

Well, yeah, this is how we go between

1:12:05

worlds. I've been doing this since I was a child, so

1:12:07

I'm used to it.

1:12:08

How long is this trip? She just kind of

1:12:10

laughs. And they all kind of like. Oh,

1:12:14

what's so funny? As the crystal continues

1:12:16

to go up, the

1:12:19

view that you see outside disappears.

1:12:23

It's in blackness. So for a moment,

1:12:25

the crystal that you're in is completely

1:12:27

surrounded by darkness. Is

1:12:30

this supposed to happen? And they all

1:12:32

kind of knowingly laugh and giggle again. Then

1:12:35

a moment after that, a landscape

1:12:37

of a wet jungle sprawled

1:12:40

out before you with

1:12:42

thousands of rivers and rivulets

1:12:44

and mountains in the background is in

1:12:47

front of you. You see it again. It's all orange tinted because

1:12:49

of this crystal.

1:12:50

And the crystal slowly

1:12:52

descends until it lands with a, not

1:12:58

a hard stop, but enough of a, it feels like

1:13:00

you're on solid ground once again.

1:13:02

And the crystal

1:13:05

opens up. Again, not with a door,

1:13:07

but with like the dissipation of the crystal

1:13:09

just disappears in

1:13:11

front of you. And then you

1:13:13

see no longer orange tinted through this portal,

1:13:16

a thriving

1:13:19

city filled with waterways,

1:13:22

almost like the hanging gardens of Babylon, right?

1:13:24

Where it feels like there's lots of fresh

1:13:26

plants and palm trees and

1:13:29

terraces with water that is falling

1:13:32

from various buildings throughout

1:13:35

and a multitude

1:13:37

of people going about their business and

1:13:39

the commerce.

1:13:41

And you see a guard, he's got

1:13:43

dark skin and leather armor

1:13:46

and holding a spear. And he says, all right, all

1:13:48

right, enough gawking. Let's go.

1:13:50

Welcome to Man of Arsha. Oh, thank

1:13:52

you. What do you do? Let's go, everyone. Can

1:13:56

you point us to the Tabaxi colony?

1:13:59

Tabaxi. Yes. There

1:14:02

is no such calony. Move along. What

1:14:04

about people who look like me? And

1:14:07

he just is, you know, and

1:14:09

the rest of your group kind of just continues to

1:14:11

walk past this guard. Okay.

1:14:14

Have you, sir? Sir? Yes.

1:14:17

He's clearly annoyed. Yes? What?

1:14:20

Have you seen anyone who looks like me? I'm looking for my brother. Looks

1:14:23

like there's three of you. You're the only people I've seen

1:14:25

who look like you. All right, keep going. Is

1:14:27

there any other way to get here besides this crystal?

1:14:30

You can walk. I can walk where? Uh,

1:14:32

from here. From

1:14:34

other parts

1:14:35

of Moni Varsha. Oh,

1:14:38

thank you. Most people take a boat. Rivers

1:14:40

are where it's at. All right, move along. Okay,

1:14:43

let's go to the docks. All

1:14:45

right, we'll pick it up next time with you trying

1:14:48

to get to the docks.

1:14:49

Thank you, kind sir.

1:14:52

She says sarcastically. And

1:14:56

Blade of Grass leans to you and says, you

1:14:58

really are just like me. I take that as a compliment.

1:15:01

As you should. Let

1:15:04

me know if you want me to cut them. I'll let you. Excellent.

1:15:07

All

1:15:08

right.