0:04

Welcome

0:04

back to Drilled, I'm Amy Westervelt.

0:07

Today, we're bringing you a dispatch from

0:09

the front lines, not only of the climate

0:12

crisis, but also of the Israel-Palestine

0:14

war.

0:14

Our senior editor, Aline

0:17

Brown, managed to get hold of an environmental

0:19

activist in Palestine to talk about

0:21

how militarization intersects with

0:24

various environmental issues and

0:26

what it's like to fight for survival

0:28

against a changing climate and an

0:30

occupying force at the same time.

0:33

Here's Aline with that story.

0:37

Last week, I spoke to Abir Bhutme,

0:39

coordinator of the Palestinian NGOs

0:42

Network, one of the most important Palestinian

0:44

environmental organizations. Before

0:47

we get into this conversation, though, I want to

0:49

define some terms that Abir uses

0:52

that might not be familiar to listeners. First

0:55

of all, you're going to hear Abir talk about 1948 territory.

1:00

Palestine was under British rule between 1917

1:03

and 1948, and it was British

1:03

policy to support Jewish

1:08

settlers who wanted to establish a national

1:11

homeland there. In the lead-up

1:13

to and aftermath of World War II

1:15

and the Holocaust, the immigration of

1:18

European Jews to the area increased

1:20

dramatically,

1:21

as did tensions between Jews and

1:24

Arabs living in Palestine. In 1947,

1:27

the UN Assembly voted to separate

1:29

Palestine into two states, one

1:32

Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem

1:35

under a UN administration. Arab

1:38

Palestinians in several neighboring Arab

1:40

countries rejected this plan.

1:43

Jewish militia groups attacked Palestinian

1:45

villages, forcing thousands of people

1:48

to abandon their homes.

1:51

The situation escalated into the Arab-Israeli

1:53

war in 1948. By

1:56

this point, British colonial rule had

1:58

ended.

1:59

had withdrawn its troops, and the Jewish

2:02

side of Palestine, outlined by

2:04

the UN, had declared itself

2:06

the independent state of Israel. At

2:09

the end of the war, more than half of

2:11

the Palestinian population was displaced,

2:15

over 700,000 people. The

2:19

Palestinians came to know this expulsion

2:21

as a Nakba, and that 1948 territory came

2:23

to be recognized

2:25

internationally as the country of

2:28

Israel. Because of this

2:30

history, for many Palestinians, their

2:32

opposition to the Israeli military's activity

2:35

is a decolonial struggle against the

2:37

stealing of their own homeland.

2:41

You're also going to hear a mere reference to West

2:43

Bank and Area C. Many

2:46

of the people who were displaced in 1948 were

2:48

pushed into smaller sections of their country,

2:51

including the West Bank. Parts

2:54

of that territory are governed by the Palestinian

2:56

military. 60% of the

2:59

territory is controlled by

3:00

Israel and is known as Area C.

3:03

Numerous road checkpoints, walls,

3:06

and roving soldiers significantly

3:08

limit Palestinian movement.

3:10

That's in large part

3:12

because of the presence of Israeli settlers.

3:15

According

3:15

to international law, Israelis

3:17

are not supposed to establish settlements

3:19

within the West Bank. However,

3:22

the Israeli government has supported the establishment

3:24

of more than 130 Israeli

3:26

settlements throughout the region,

3:28

with the Israeli military providing them protection.

3:32

Those who fight against the settlements, or attempt

3:34

to continue the African soldiers' practices

3:37

and daily activities that make them who they are,

3:39

these armed soldiers

3:41

or extremist settlers, who

3:43

often kill Palestinians

3:44

in the name of protecting or expanding

3:47

the settlements.

3:49

Finally, by now, most of you have heard of

3:51

Gaza, a small strip of land 25

3:53

miles long

3:54

and 7.5 miles wide

3:57

along the Mediterranean Sea.

3:59

Gaza is another one of the areas that Palestinians

4:02

were pushed into after 1948.

4:05

In 2007, Hamas, a

4:08

political party that favors using armed

4:10

force to push back against the

4:12

Israeli occupation,

4:13

took power in Gaza.

4:16

In response, the Israeli government put

4:18

in place a blockade, strictly

4:20

controlling what materials for people

4:23

could move in and out. Although

4:26

both sides have at times used violence, the

4:28

Israeli military has a huge advantage

4:30

over Hamas and Palestinians.

4:33

In large part because of U.S. government

4:35

support. Between 2008 and 2022,

4:39

according

4:39

to the UN, Palestinians killed

4:42

nearly 300 Israelis, while Israelis

4:45

killed over 6,000 Palestinians,

4:48

who were mostly civilians, farmers,

4:51

unarmed protesters, journalists, and

4:53

children. A bombardment of Gaza

4:55

is a culmination of these years

4:57

of conflict, and the death toll provides

5:00

a snapshot of the power differential. The

5:04

Israeli government says Hamas

5:05

killed over 1,200 people and took over 240 people hostage

5:10

in its October 7 attack.

5:13

Hamas's Palestinian Ministry of Health

5:15

says that the Israeli military has now

5:18

killed more than 10,500 people, including over 4,000 children. Palestinians

5:26

say that even if they denounce Hamas and

5:28

practice only nonviolent protests,

5:31

even if they make no moves to resist the

5:33

Israeli military's actions at all,

5:35

their very identity as

5:37

Palestinian is seen as criminal, violent,

5:41

and even terroristic. Amidst

5:44

all of this exists a network of Palestinian

5:46

environmental defenders, who say

5:49

environmental violations are inherent to

5:51

the Israeli government's actions in Palestinian

5:53

territories and who face serious repercussions

5:55

for their environmental activism.

6:00

Coming up right after this quick break,

6:02

I hope you'll find it useful.

6:04

I'm Aline Brown and you're listening to Drilled.

6:37

In

7:01

that episode, Ashley discusses ambitious

7:04

plans to achieve a real zero,

7:06

not

7:06

net zero, climate

7:08

goal. Each episode

7:09

explores the many challenges and

7:11

opportunities that climate change presents

7:13

to innovators and entrepreneurs and

7:16

how businesses across the world are striving

7:18

to

7:18

make a more positive impact on

7:21

the planet. Go listen to Climate Rising

7:23

on Apple, Spotify, or wherever

7:25

you get your podcasts. And tell them we

7:27

sent

7:27

you.

7:37

Environmental Justice is a talking point

7:40

in every politician's toolkit. But

7:42

do you ever wonder where it all began?

7:45

On this week's through line, we're taking you

7:47

back to 1978, where a fight against a toxic

7:51

dump in North Carolina started

7:53

the environmental justice movement. Join

7:55

NPR's Climate Week and listen to

7:58

Thulein, wherever you get your podcasts.

7:59

If

8:03

you are banking with most banks,

8:06

they are loaning out your deposits

8:08

to fund fossil fuel projects.

8:11

Yeah, that's right. A little known fact,

8:14

but that means that

8:16

one pretty straightforward, easy

8:18

thing to do to remove your support

8:20

from the expansion of fossil fuel projects is

8:23

to move your bank account. That's

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where Atmos comes in. Atmos

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checking and savings accounts as

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well as residential solar loans for

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their values on climate. All

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Currently, Atmos

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9:15

towards those that help preserve it.

9:18

Their pledge is to only lend to sectors that help

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to rapidly accelerate the transition toward

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economy. So if you

9:28

want to bank with a company that is supporting

9:30

a carbon-free future, head

9:33

to Atmos. Head to joinatmos.com.

9:56

Abir, thank you so much for agreeing to talk

9:58

to me. I know this has been a difficult time.

9:59

devastating month. Thank you very much. Thank

10:02

you.

10:03

Could you start by telling me a bit about yourself

10:06

where you're from and your environmental work?

10:09

I'm Abhiar Bousme, the coordinator

10:11

of Pingon, France of Paris, Palestine.

10:15

I work in Pingon as the

10:17

coordinator for environmental and

10:21

environmental advocacy campaigns

10:24

in Palestine. I'm from

10:27

Nablus in the northern part

10:29

of West Bank and

10:31

I work in different cities

10:33

and different areas in West

10:35

Bank and also in Gaza Strip. This

10:38

season of Drilled is focused on

10:40

criminalization of land and water defenders

10:42

and early on we started talking about

10:45

doing a piece on Palestine, asking

10:47

the question, what does it mean to be an environmental

10:50

activist in a place where your identity

10:53

is criminalized? I'm still really

10:55

interested in that question, but

10:57

since we have that conversation, Israel's

10:59

bombardment of Gaza began in response

11:02

to Hamas killing 1400

11:03

Israelis and kidnapping 240 people,

11:07

the Israeli military with

11:09

substantial funding and political support

11:12

from the U.S. government has killed

11:14

an estimated more than 8,000 Palestinians.

11:18

So in a lot of ways it's hard to look beyond

11:20

that loss of life, but

11:22

as an environmental journalist who

11:24

is often speaking to people who

11:26

look at the world through an environmental lens,

11:29

it has felt important

11:30

to help that audience think

11:32

through what's happening right now. So

11:35

maybe a question to start with

11:37

is, is the bombardment of Gaza

11:40

an environmental justice issue and

11:42

if so, why? Gaza

11:44

Strip is suffering

11:46

from illegal blockage, 16 years

11:50

of cut off water,

11:52

the basic need for the 2.2

11:55

million people who

11:57

live in Gaza Strip.

11:59

and the policy on Gaza

12:02

with a lot of restrictions for

12:05

passing the necessary material

12:07

for the developing infrastructure.

12:10

Also, it's like a large

12:12

prison in Gaza. No

12:14

people can go outside even

12:17

for medical reasons. Very

12:19

limited members can go outside with

12:21

a lot of restrictions and conditions to

12:24

go to an environmental situation inside Gaza.

12:26

Gaza lives under environmental

12:28

catastrophe as a result of the siege

12:30

on Gaza. When we talk about the

12:33

basic environmental elements in

12:36

Gaza, water, for example, 97%

12:38

of water

12:40

is unsuitable and unfit

12:42

for human use.

12:44

This is before the current attack

12:47

against Gaza. Israelis use

12:50

the white phosphorus and it has a

12:52

critical impact on the

12:55

environmental elements, different environmental

12:57

elements, for the groundwater

12:59

and also soil and air.

13:02

And it has a long term impact.

13:05

Right. White phosphorus is a chemical

13:07

that can be dispersed via artillery shells

13:09

or bombs that set fires

13:12

and causes excruciating burns.

13:14

Human rights watch verified that Israeli

13:16

used white phosphorus against Gaza in

13:18

October.

13:20

When we talk about climate change in

13:22

Palestine, it's a political

13:24

phenomenon in Palestine, not only natural phenomena.

13:27

Because when we talk about climate change,

13:29

the most important sectors which

13:32

are water and also agricultural

13:35

sector. When we talk about water

13:37

in Palestine, Israeli occupation

13:40

puts control on the major

13:43

water resources in Palestine.

13:45

So we have to buy our

13:48

water resources from the Israelis

13:51

with the limited quantities. When

13:53

we talk about climate change adaptation,

13:55

we cannot cope with the climate change

13:58

phenomenon without full sovereignty

14:01

on our water resources and

14:03

also there is no Palestinian sovereignty

14:06

on the land. When we talk

14:08

about the agricultural sector,

14:11

most agricultural areas are

14:13

located in Area C, which is

14:16

under the Israeli control.

14:18

So with the Palestinians, even the individuals

14:21

or the organizations, they

14:24

have limited access

14:27

to these areas. So as

14:29

Palestinian organizations and environmental

14:32

activists, we cannot develop any

14:35

planned infrastructure in Area

14:37

C without taking

14:39

permission from the Israelis. And

14:42

many projects that were

14:44

developed in these areas are damaged by

14:47

the Israelis.

14:48

And when you see they're damaged by the Israelis,

14:51

how are they damaged?

14:52

For example, in some communities,

14:55

in Area C, especially the areas

14:58

which are near the Israeli settlements,

15:01

we develop clean energy projects, mainly

15:03

the solar energy or the

15:05

solar units. So the

15:08

Israelis also damage these solar

15:10

panels several times and we repeat

15:12

building these and protecting these solar

15:15

units. There are two threats to Palestinians.

15:17

The first threat from the Israeli soldiers,

15:20

from the Israeli occupation, and the second

15:22

threat from the Israeli settlers.

15:25

Different areas were turned by

15:27

the Israeli settlers, mainly the

15:30

olive trees were turned by the

15:32

Israeli settlers. And

15:34

currently there is olive harvesting

15:36

season and under

15:38

these situations and restrictions

15:42

and pressure from the Israeli on the Palestinians

15:45

who live

15:45

in West Bank. They

15:48

close

15:49

all the gates in

15:51

front of the farmers so the

15:53

Palestinian farmers cannot reach their

15:55

land. And even they could

15:57

reach their land, the Israeli. Israeli

16:00

settlers attacked the

16:02

farmers who harvested

16:06

their olive trees. And before

16:08

one week, the Israeli settlers killed

16:11

a Palestinian farmer in

16:13

his land during harvesting the

16:15

olive tree in a sauya village near

16:18

the Nablus city. Wow.

16:21

And in Gaza,

16:24

you talked about how the blockade

16:26

has prevented equipment from

16:29

coming through to build

16:32

water infrastructure. What equipment

16:34

needs to come through and why do

16:36

they say they're not allowing it through?

16:38

So for example, the equipment that

16:41

are needed to enter Gaza,

16:43

for example spare parts for the pumping,

16:46

the public station, and also some

16:48

equipment for or some materials, building

16:51

materials. Also, there is a limitation

16:54

on the quantity of the fuel.

16:56

For example, the limited quantities

16:59

of the fuel cause

17:00

a shortage of energy

17:03

in order to operate the wastewater

17:05

replacement plants in Gaza. So as a result

17:07

of the fuel shortage is needed to operate

17:09

the wastewater resistance plants in Gaza, raw

17:12

wastewater is pumped to the sea

17:14

without treatment. And that cause damage

17:16

for the marine life in addition

17:18

to wastewater penetration to the

17:21

groundwater and polluting the

17:23

groundwater. And also the

17:26

repeated attacks against Gaza, especially

17:29

the attack in 2021, they targeted

17:32

main infrastructure and

17:35

the main facilities inside the

17:37

development

17:37

facilities inside Gaza. And

17:39

also the current attack. They targeted the

17:42

different wastewater treatment

17:44

plants and also the

17:46

solar water treatment plants. They

17:48

targeted different solar energy

17:51

projects. They aim

17:53

to damage the main infrastructure

17:56

and the main basic elements in

17:59

Gaza. Also, during

18:01

the last years, 35% of

18:03

the agricultural areas in

18:06

Gaza strip, it is under

18:08

restricted areas. So,

18:10

the Palestinian farmers cannot reach their

18:13

land freely without Israeli

18:15

efforts. And there are different cases

18:18

that the Palestinian farmers were

18:20

killed as a result of, because

18:23

they want to go to their farms to rehabilitate

18:25

their farms and to harvest their crops. And

18:28

also, the Israeli occupation,

18:30

they spread chemicals by

18:32

airplanes in these areas

18:34

to kill all the

18:37

plants and vegetables in that area.

18:40

They claim that it's for the safety and

18:42

security reason. So they damaged

18:45

huge areas of agricultural land by

18:47

spreading these chemical

18:49

materials on the agricultural areas and

18:51

the plants.

18:53

And how do they claim that's a security

18:55

thing? What security could that possibly

18:57

provide?

18:58

Because these areas should

19:00

be seen without any, without

19:03

any disease, for example. They claim

19:05

that the Palestinians can come

19:08

near the border without

19:11

the Israeli occupation, can see them. And

19:13

so they want to make like

19:16

a buffer zone, empty buffer

19:18

zone without any

19:21

green cover.

19:23

I see. Okay. And

19:25

with the equipment that they're not allowing in

19:28

for pumping, for water

19:30

treatment, is the claim there

19:32

that material

19:33

could be used

19:35

for

19:36

violence? Is that what their claim is?

19:39

Yes, the claim is that fuel,

19:43

all the materials can be used for

19:45

Palestinian resistance. Yeah,

19:48

that's why they put a lot of

19:50

pressure in order to, and sections

19:52

in order to allow these materials

19:54

to enter Gaza. But there is no

19:56

reason, any reason to allow

19:59

for the police. Palestinians to go outside

20:01

Gaza, even children.

20:04

We have different sick children

20:07

suffer from, for example, cancer,

20:09

and there is no medical relief in Gaza,

20:12

the suitable medical equipment

20:15

in Gaza and relief in Gaza. So

20:17

they have to go to hospitals

20:20

inside West Bank. So sometimes

20:22

children with ages less

20:25

than 12 years, they go outside

20:27

Gaza without their families. The

20:30

occupation doesn't allow for

20:32

their mothers or fathers to

20:34

go with their children to the hospitals

20:37

inside West Bank. So there is no reason,

20:40

only it's a strategic of slow

20:42

killing for the Palestinians and

20:44

the collective punishment for the Palestinians.

20:47

What's happening in Gaza is a collective punishment

20:50

since 16 years. Why

20:53

the children in Gaza cannot take

20:55

the medical and the hospitality

20:58

rights? Why the children

21:00

also cannot dream with the future

21:03

like

21:03

any child in the world? So

21:06

all their lives

21:08

are frozen by the

21:11

Israeli orders. There is a lot

21:13

of limitations, not only allowing

21:16

of the spare parts or the

21:18

materials. And for example, Gaza

21:20

strip, it was agricultural

21:23

area. It exports different

21:25

agricultural crops like strawberry,

21:27

like flowers, like different vegetables.

21:31

But as a result of the Israeli pluckings,

21:34

these agricultural crops, there are a lot

21:36

of restrictions to go outside Gaza

21:38

also. And why? There

21:40

is no security or reason for the

21:42

Israelis. Why? Because

21:45

they want to kill also the economy inside

21:47

Gaza. So the minimum

21:50

quantities can be imported

21:52

from Gaza to West Bank and

21:55

the agricultural economy inside Gaza.

21:58

It was collapsed since the end of the year.

22:01

I just wanted to go back to one thing you said earlier,

22:03

just to make sure I understand. You

22:05

said that the Israelis have destroyed

22:08

agricultural projects on the West Bank.

22:11

They've destroyed solar panels and

22:13

other things. In those cases,

22:16

is it the Israeli military or

22:18

is it soldiers? And

22:20

why do they say they're doing that?

22:23

For the clean energy

22:25

projects

22:26

and water wells, for example, the

22:28

Israeli soldiers, they give orders

22:32

to damage the infrastructure

22:34

because it is located in Area

22:36

C and Area C it is under

22:39

the Israeli control. The

22:42

Area C, it forms 64% of the

22:45

Palestinian areas in the West Bank. So the

22:47

majority of the Palestinian areas

22:49

located in the Area C. The

22:52

Area C is mainly the agricultural

22:55

areas in West Bank. But

22:57

regarding the burning trees

23:00

and mainly the olive trees, there are different

23:02

cases that are practiced by the Israeli

23:05

settlers. The Israeli settlers attack

23:07

the Palestinian farmers and also

23:10

they burn and uproot different

23:12

trees in different areas in West Bank.

23:15

And why are the olive trees important? The

23:18

olive

23:18

trees is the identity for

23:20

the Palestinians. It's a simple

23:23

Palestinian trees and also

23:25

the agricultural economy. It

23:28

depends on the olive trees.

23:31

You know, and I've been reading a little

23:33

bit about how greenwashing

23:35

has been an important tool

23:37

for Israel's occupation. Can

23:39

you talk to me about that?

23:41

The Israeli promote

23:43

itself like eco-friendly

23:46

country by

23:48

depending on different environmental practices.

23:51

For example, Mecorod Israeli

23:53

company, which is wastewater and

23:56

water company in

23:58

Israel, It's

24:01

like a professional water

24:03

company in water and

24:05

wastewater management all over the world.

24:08

So what's happening on the ground is responsible

24:10

on the assessing of the Palestinians,

24:14

especially in the Jordan Valley

24:16

communities and in the eastern

24:18

part and southern part of West Bank. For

24:21

example, in Israel practice

24:23

or practices, the water

24:25

apartheid in West Bank and

24:27

in Gaza, when we compare the

24:30

Palestinian water consumption by

24:33

the Israeli settlers inside

24:35

West Bank. For example, in the Jordan

24:37

Valley, the water consumption per capita per

24:39

day is reached to 10 to 20

24:42

liters per capita per day, while

24:44

the Israeli settlers in the Jordan

24:47

Valley, they consume eight times

24:49

the Palestinians. And also

24:52

we have a Laoja village, which

24:54

was the main agricultural village

24:56

inside the Jordan Valley, and

24:59

they depend on the Laoja spring.

25:02

But as a result of the

25:05

Israeli practices, they drilled wells

25:08

beside the main feed to these

25:10

drinks. Currently a village

25:13

suffers from water shortage

25:16

for agricultural use. And now

25:18

you can see a Laoja village dry.

25:22

Another kind of green washing,

25:24

which is the Jewish National Fund,

25:27

which is the same that it's a charity. They

25:30

organize different planting trees,

25:33

a huge planting trees. So

25:35

they work under environmental

25:37

cover. But the reality

25:40

of GNF is covering

25:43

the Palestinian identity. They

25:46

replace the Palestinian native trees

25:48

with foreign trees and cover

25:51

the Palestinian nature. In

25:53

addition to that, they aim

25:56

to organize planting trees on the ruins

25:58

of the region. the Palestinian

26:01

villages inside the 1948 land. For

26:05

example, previously GNF,

26:07

they organized large

26:10

planting trees on the ruins of

26:12

eight Palestinian villages inside

26:16

the 1948 land in

26:18

order to cover that there

26:20

were Palestinian villages in these areas.

26:24

We should note that in the past, the Palestinian

26:31

and the

26:35

the the

26:39

the the

26:43

the the

26:47

the the

26:49

change,

26:52

the main important sector which is water

26:54

sector, we cannot as

26:56

Palestinians, we cannot cope with climate

26:59

changes without a serenity

27:01

on water resources, so

27:03

we cannot cope with climate change as any

27:06

any environmental organizations or any farmer

27:10

in different countries, because of the Israeli

27:13

restrictions on the Palestinian land

27:15

and its resources. We have plans,

27:18

we have different environmental

27:21

adaptation projects, but we

27:24

cannot implement what we

27:26

plan because the Israeli

27:28

restrictions on the land and also

27:31

on the resources.

27:33

And given all of these

27:35

pressures, how are Palestinians

27:37

pushing back? What is Palestine's

27:40

environmental movement look like?

27:42

Yeah, as the Palestinians, we believe

27:44

in our rights in this land and with

27:47

its resources, so we are always

27:49

fighting for our rights

27:52

as Palestinians. We don't stop trying

27:54

to find alternatives and solutions,

27:57

even under these restrictions.

28:00

For example, in the Jordan Valley,

28:03

which is a strategic area for the Israelis,

28:06

on the Jordan Valley, we have 42 Israeli

28:10

settlements are mainly agricultural

28:13

settlements. So they control

28:15

as much as they can on water

28:18

resources and agricultural areas

28:20

in order to provide and supply

28:22

these water resources to people of these illegal

28:25

agricultural settlements. What

28:27

we do as environmental organizations

28:30

and movements inside the Jordan

28:32

Valley in order to increase

28:35

the Palestinian farmers'

28:37

seed fastness and keep them

28:40

in their land is to develop

28:43

and to provide them with basic

28:45

needs, even not as planned.

28:49

For example, in these communities, we have no

28:52

water networks. So we provide

28:54

them with water tanks in order

28:57

to be able to stay in

28:59

their land. In these communities,

29:01

there is no electricity network

29:04

as a result of the Israeli restrictions. So

29:07

we developed and reconstructed

29:09

different solar energy

29:12

projects inside these communities in

29:14

order also to increase their seed fastness in

29:17

their land and also in

29:19

different areas in West Bank and

29:22

also regarding Gaza

29:25

Strip, even Gaza Strip, which

29:28

live under the siege since

29:31

a very long time. But we

29:33

try to do what we can by providing

29:36

them with basic

29:38

elements and equipment

29:40

that is needed to develop the

29:43

infrastructure there. And

29:46

it took a very long time

29:49

and a very long process to enter

29:51

these equipments and materials.

29:54

We achieved a lot of successes,

29:57

even small successes. even

30:00

its slow progress,

30:02

but we couldn't stop doing

30:04

this development and this

30:07

work because we believe that we

30:10

have to continue our fight

30:12

to

30:12

protect our environmental

30:14

rights.

30:15

And for you personally, what

30:18

made you want to do

30:20

this work, to become

30:22

an environmental defender the way you

30:24

are?

30:25

Personally, I'm from

30:27

a Palestinian

30:28

village and I'm

30:30

very connected with land since

30:33

my childhood. When I was

30:35

a child, the most favorite thing is

30:37

going to our farms and plant

30:39

trees. And I remember

30:41

the Israeli soldiers when they uprooted

30:44

different trees from

30:46

our farms and I will not

30:48

forget the feeling

30:50

that I had when I was a child

30:52

when I saw my

30:54

tree when it was uprooted. So

30:57

I believe that this is our land

31:00

and we have the right

31:02

to continue struggling in order to

31:04

protect our land. And

31:07

I saw that PENGON co-authored

31:09

a report about

31:10

challenges faced by Palestinian

31:12

environmental defenders and it listed

31:14

some violations against environmental defenders,

31:17

including imprisonment, harassment,

31:20

withholding information,

31:21

defamation of the image,

31:24

threats, and banning people

31:26

from attending meetings. I wondered

31:29

if you could share more about

31:31

these kinds of violations and

31:34

what you've experienced as an environmental

31:36

activist.

31:37

We cannot do our

31:40

environmental work freely without

31:42

Israeli restrictions. For

31:44

example, we cannot reach the areas

31:47

that are under the Israeli

31:50

violations in order to do

31:52

some investigation work. In some

31:54

cases, we became under the

31:56

threat to be prisoners by the Israeli

31:59

authorities. For

32:01

example, through our work, we have

32:03

to do a lot of investigation

32:06

in some areas located in the

32:08

south of Hebron. We took

32:11

a case that there is a lot of

32:13

indicators that the Israelis dumped

32:16

the nuclear waste in

32:18

the southern part of West Bank. So

32:21

our colleague who took some photos

32:23

for the trucks and for

32:26

the caves in that area,

32:28

they bought him in the prison and they

32:31

damaged cameras and all the materials.

32:35

We have different cases like this case.

32:38

We cannot do our environmental

32:40

work freely without the Israeli

32:42

threat. Also when

32:44

we want to develop any

32:47

environmental project like rehabilitation

32:50

of agricultural land, there is

32:52

a threat also to control

32:54

the ablation equipment like bulldozers,

32:57

trucks and different

33:00

equipment. So in some cases,

33:02

we try to work during

33:04

the night, not the day, in

33:07

order to finish our work without

33:10

giving attention from the Israelis.

33:12

Also there is a control for

33:14

the information that

33:17

we collect in different media

33:19

centers, per se media centers, and

33:21

also different environmental organizations

33:24

and legal organizations. The

33:27

Israeli soldiers attacked the offices

33:30

and they controlled all the equipment

33:32

and the information inside

33:35

these laptops and these equipment.

33:38

And there is many restrictions on the Palestinian

33:41

environmental activists and organizations.

33:44

And also there's a restriction on movement

33:47

for the Palestinian

33:49

environmental activists. For example,

33:52

when we want to travel outside

33:54

Palestine, in some cases

33:56

the Israeli occupation

33:59

stopped us. and prevent us

34:01

to travel as a result

34:03

of certain activities that

34:05

we did inside Palestine. And

34:08

have you experienced any of

34:10

these things personally? For

34:13

me, when I participated in Geneva

34:15

in the UN Human Rights Council, talking

34:17

about the Amikorot, water-abrathigh

34:20

practices, when I returned back on the

34:22

Persian borders, so

34:25

we have Israeli border first. They

34:27

stopped me and they asked me what

34:29

I did inside the UN, and

34:32

they

34:32

gave me a condition.

34:35

If I repeat this

34:36

case, they will put

34:39

me in a jail. And yeah,

34:41

so they threatened me in order to silence

34:44

me, not to talk about the

34:46

Israeli practices in Palestine.

34:49

So they

34:50

said if you spoke again about

34:53

the water company and those problems

34:56

to the UN, you would be imprisoned?

34:58

Yeah, yes.

35:00

Okay, okay, wow.

35:02

And I guess the last big question

35:05

I have is what would you

35:07

like to see environmental

35:09

movements, environmental activists or organizations

35:12

outside of Palestine? What

35:15

would you like to see them do to address

35:17

the environmental problems that come with the

35:19

bombardment of Gaza, with the

35:22

siege, and with the occupation

35:24

of Palestinian territories?

35:27

Actually, the current attack

35:30

against Gaza shows the silence

35:33

of different countries about

35:35

the realities that are happening

35:37

inside Palestine, and especially

35:39

inside Gaza, the

35:42

inhuman practices that are happened

35:45

inside Gaza. And so

35:47

what is needed from the

35:49

environmental movements outside is

35:52

to share the Palestinian stories,

35:55

to show the Israeli

35:57

illegal practices on the ground. So

36:00

to share these facts by different

36:03

tools in order to change the international

36:06

community's public

36:09

opinion about what is happening on

36:11

the ground inside Palestine and

36:13

to show the reality of the Israeli

36:16

occupation, how it

36:19

violates the Palestinian environment

36:21

and violates the Palestinian rights

36:24

inside Palestine. Many of

36:26

the environmental activists, they

36:28

have a sense of solidarity with the

36:31

Palestinian environmental movements

36:34

and they took some solidarity

36:37

actions by signing statements in order

36:39

to stop this attack against

36:42

Gaza and also to open

36:44

the borders and ending

36:47

the illegal siege on Gaza. And

36:49

a lot of actions are needed by

36:52

the environmental movements,

36:55

whether sharing the facts, realities

36:58

about the Israeli violations, also

37:01

demanding their governments in order

37:03

to put the pressure on Israel

37:06

to solve these illegal practices

37:08

against Palestinian land

37:10

and the Palestinian people. Well,

37:12

Abir, thank you so much for talking

37:15

with me about all of this.

37:27

That's it for this time.

37:29

Drilled is an original critical

37:31

frequency production. Our senior

37:33

editor and the reporter and host for this

37:35

episode is Aline Brown. Peter

37:37

Duff mixed and mastered the episode.

37:40

Our artwork is done by Matt Fleming. Our

37:42

first amendment attorney is James Wheaton. You

37:45

can find a transcript of this episode, other

37:48

stories in the series and all the documentation

37:50

behind this and other episodes in

37:52

our real free speech threat season,

37:55

as well as previous seasons online

37:57

at drilled.media. for

38:00

our newsletter there. Thanks for listening

38:02

and we'll see you next time.