0:12

Hello, and welcome back to another

0:14

episode of Dua Lipa at your service.

0:17

A podcast series in which I sit down with some

0:19

of the world's most inspiring minds, including

0:21

today's very special guest, Dean Baquet.

0:24

brilliant journalist who just recently ended

0:26

his eight year tenure as executive editor

0:28

at The New York Times. Before

0:30

I dive in with Dean, because this is somehow

0:33

the finale already, I wanted to look

0:35

back at the second season about your service.

0:38

Even though it's been such a busy year for me.

0:40

Having this podcast in my life has really

0:42

grounded me when I needed it most. I

0:44

continue to walk away from all my conversations

0:47

feeling so empowered and enlightened. Everyone

0:49

of my guests has been such beacon of light for

0:51

me during some of the very busy months. I've

0:53

been looking back recently and thought you guys might like

0:55

to reflect on me.

1:00

Gosh, I don't even know where to begin. I

1:02

guess I'll start with when I spoke to Greta

1:04

Gerwig recently. She really

1:06

inspired me to think more deeply about the role

1:08

earlier can and should play in everyone's

1:11

lives and mine included.

1:13

Let's hear a bit of that. So I applied

1:15

to graduate school to three

1:17

different graduate schools for playwriting,

1:20

and he didn't get into any of them.

1:23

But I I think

1:25

in the end for me, it was lucky that

1:27

I didn't get in because I think it

1:29

it sped up the part

1:32

where I had to bet on myself --

1:34

Mhmm. -- I suppose, because

1:37

I didn't have anyone telling

1:39

me that it looked really that promising.

1:42

Yeah. So it was a I didn't

1:44

have a piece of paper and anything official.

1:47

So I kind of

1:49

had to cobble it together, but

1:52

I I was very lucky with the people I was in

1:54

contact with in New York. and who were

1:56

working in theater and film and

1:59

it

1:59

is

1:59

sort of a learn on your feet thing

2:02

anyway. I mean, if I'd gotten

2:04

into grad school, I'm sure it would have been wonderful

2:06

too. But, yeah, it was positive you made me

2:09

leap. Yeah. Yeah. III

2:12

enrolled to, like, singing

2:14

drama, like, performance school in

2:17

London as well. And I got turned

2:19

down and I appealed I got turned on

2:21

again. And

2:26

I was like, oh my god. Like, why

2:29

is this happening to me? Like, clearly, I'm

2:31

not good enough. And I just wanted, you know, I just

2:33

wanted to sing and I was like, you know, when I

2:35

play the cello and I can do this and

2:37

It was nightmare and they still didn't want me and

2:39

I was like fuck, like, maybe

2:41

this isn't for me, but I think those

2:43

those moments of getting turned down

2:45

like you said, push you to make the leap.

2:47

And then early in the season, in fact, Dan

2:49

Levy spoke about the very same topic.

2:52

This idea that society should be more encouraging

2:54

a failure and how much better off we'd

2:56

all be if failure could just be destigmatized.

2:59

Failure is a good thing. Yep. And

3:01

we're just so terrified of it because I think

3:03

there's money involved. There's a commerce

3:05

element that also is

3:07

side by side with the artistry of

3:10

of entertainment. And so this

3:12

this whole concept of like, well, if it doesn't

3:14

work, well, we can't we you know, God forbid,

3:16

we make another one. Yeah. because one

3:18

thing means that one other thing can't or

3:21

can Wrapup. It's absolutely

3:23

mind numbing. Failure. It's

3:26

just a part of the journey. If I think if

3:28

we're constantly striving for perfection, we're never

3:30

really gonna get there. Yeah. I think the fact

3:32

that words like flaws and failure,

3:35

we can have a whole other conversation about

3:37

like how society has has

3:39

marked those types of words as bad

3:41

things -- Mhmm. -- when

3:44

culturally, if we saw flaws

3:46

if we saw failure as a positive thing,

3:48

as a constructive thing, as something that

3:50

makes us stronger and better and more creative

3:52

and more thoughtful. We

3:54

would have a different relationship to

3:56

it, and we would have more empathy -- Mhmm.

3:59

-- when

3:59

someone does stumble. Yeah.

4:02

as opposed to this culture

4:04

that we're living in right now where if you

4:06

don't look perfect, say

4:09

the right thing all the time, do

4:11

the right thing. you're

4:13

somehow letting people down.

4:16

And then for the third 1II

4:19

had so much positive feedback from all of you

4:21

about my conversation with Brian Stevenson.

4:23

He gave me a really powerful list

4:25

about changing the world by getting proximate

4:27

and uncomfortable. showcasing a

4:29

compassion that really, really moved me.

4:31

I

4:31

think the four things I would say is that I believe

4:34

we do have to commit to Ximedy,

4:36

I think you have to find ways to get

4:38

closer to people who are excluded

4:40

and marginalized who are disfavored. I

4:42

think it's very easy in our world to isolate

4:45

your self from the problems of other and

4:47

I just think we have to not do that.

4:49

And so for me, proximity is really

4:51

key. It's proximity that got me to death role

4:53

as a law student and changed my career.

4:55

The second thing is changing

4:57

the narrative. I don't think it's enough to

4:59

debate policies and issues. We have to

5:01

understand the narratives underneath

5:04

a lot of these policies. There are narratives

5:06

in the world that are fostering

5:09

bigger tree and violence. And

5:11

we have to change those narratives.

5:13

We have to call them out. The third

5:15

thing I would say is hope, I am

5:17

persuaded that hopelessness

5:19

is the enemy of justice. I

5:22

think injustice prevails where

5:24

hopelessness persists.

5:25

And I think our hope is

5:27

our superpower. And so I think that's

5:30

the third And then the last thing is that we do have to

5:32

be willing to do things that are uncomfortable and

5:34

inconvenient. And it's hard because I

5:36

think as humans were biologically and

5:38

psychologically programmed to do

5:40

what's comfortable. We like comfort. And

5:42

there's nothing wrong with comfort, but it

5:44

does mean that we're gonna have to make a commitment,

5:46

we're gonna have to make a choice, a decision to

5:48

do the uncomfortable if we're

5:50

actually going to advance issues that need

5:53

to be advanced. But I think when we

5:55

get proximate, when we change narratives, when we

5:57

stay hopeful, and when we commit to doing uncomfortable

5:59

things,

5:59

We position ourselves to

6:02

be

6:02

people who make a difference in the communities

6:05

where we live, places where

6:07

we us spend our time in the

6:09

world, which is ultimately the goal.

6:11

We kicked off the season with

6:13

the amazing Monica Lewinsky.

6:16

who told me about the decision behind

6:19

reentering the public eye more than a decade

6:21

after retreating from it. And I

6:23

was so blown away by her resilience and

6:25

the ways in which she turned what could

6:27

have been a legacy of public humiliation into

6:29

the power to change and save other lives?

6:31

You know, how change usually comes

6:33

from a number of

6:35

moments that sort of start forming and

6:37

eventually come together and collide.

6:40

And I think that

6:42

for me, as I talked a bit

6:44

about in the TED Talk, there

6:46

was a moment when Tyler

6:49

Clemente who was an

6:50

eighteen year old freshman at Rutgers University

6:53

and he had been videotaped

6:56

secretly videotaped being intimate with

6:58

another man by his roommate Dua it

7:01

was, you

7:01

know, threatened to be exposed online, and

7:03

the chairman humiliation he felt from

7:05

that led him days later.

7:07

to take his own life. And

7:10

it became a national

7:11

news story. And my

7:14

mom and I were discussing it. I was on a

7:16

drive home.

7:16

you know, experiencing her

7:19

or watching her process

7:22

what had happened

7:22

to Tyler and the pain

7:24

in English of his family.

7:26

that really put my mom back in ninety

7:28

eight and I sort of saw through her

7:30

lens in

7:32

a different way just that

7:35

the fear and panic, you

7:36

know, that she had had my

7:39

dad as well, that that they had had

7:41

about me, that

7:42

that worry of me taking my own life,

7:45

being

7:45

you know, publicly humiliated to

7:48

death. So

7:50

I think that it was at that point that I started

7:53

to realize too that that

7:55

with the advent of the Internet and now

7:57

social media had, you know, had

7:59

been born, that

7:59

that there were these opportunities,

8:02

that public shaming was now gonna be something

8:04

that

8:04

more and more people would start to experience.

8:06

It wasn't just for people who made mistakes,

8:09

you know, or public people that that we

8:11

were

8:11

starting to feast on

8:14

private people's moments

8:16

that, you know, could bring shame

8:18

and humiliation. And I

8:20

think that at that point, I thought, okay,

8:22

there might be a place, you

8:24

know, as a poster child for having

8:26

survived public humiliation. There might be

8:29

there

8:29

might be a place for my voice,

8:31

and I think that happened alongside

8:33

a lot of

8:35

deep healing work that I had started

8:37

to that allowed me

8:39

to be in a place where I could do

8:41

that, where I could take the risks

8:43

of

8:43

kind of, quote unquote, coming

8:46

back out. And for

8:46

my final one, and what I promise

8:49

is still a total bintry moment. I

8:51

never expected Baydrel Motivar to

8:53

tell me of all people that I was an

8:55

inspiration from one of the scenes Dean one of his

8:57

recent movies that he did. And I'm

8:59

still blushing even just thinking about it.

9:01

there is

9:01

a sequence where Perrenovia

9:03

growth is in a photo session

9:05

and is taking pictures

9:07

of a transsexual Dua the

9:10

transsexual woman said, this is the first

9:12

time that a

9:14

female journal give

9:16

me the cover. And

9:18

you know, one of the

9:20

posts that I said to

9:22

this girl to imitate

9:25

it was you. In what

9:27

beautiful picture, when

9:29

you are making pathogen publicity

9:32

that you are in Dean, de

9:35

la Castacomo, So,

9:36

Tim,

9:40

watch the film again. There's he's talking about

9:42

a photograph where you're on your knees.

9:45

sort of leaning back with your arm above

9:47

your and we can see your belly

9:49

button.

9:49

And the actress actually

9:52

duplicates this image.

9:54

That's

9:54

unbelievable. Do you remember

9:56

that picture for Pepadine?

9:58

Yes. Yes. I

9:59

remember I just can't I can't believe

10:02

I can't believe what you're telling me. I am

10:05

I've gone very hot now,

10:07

and it's it's very

10:09

incredible. It's

10:11

really been a season I'll always

10:13

remember. You can

10:15

listen to all these episodes in full

10:17

and other

10:18

interviews with inspiring names. in this

10:20

podcast feed, and we're

10:21

not done

10:22

just yet. Please

10:23

stay with me through this very short break.

10:25

After which, I'll be back with this week's

10:28

guest. Dean

10:32

Bake.

10:36

Ask

10:40

yourself this. If

10:42

you learned that you had an

10:44

increased genetic likelihood of

10:46

developing a addition that could affect your health,

10:49

how would that change your life?

10:52

Hi. I'm Baritone Day

10:54

Thursday. Join me in the new

10:56

season of spit. An original

10:58

podcast from iHeartRadio Dean twenty

11:00

three in me, as we learn how understanding

11:03

your health, can begin with

11:05

understanding what your genetics say about

11:07

you. Over the coming weeks

11:09

and months, we hear from twenty

11:11

three of today's most influential podcasters

11:14

as they explore their own

11:16

health discoveries and how insights about

11:18

their genetics have put them on a path

11:20

toward a healthier life.

11:25

Listen to spit on the iHeartRadio

11:27

app, Apple Podcast, or

11:29

wherever you get your podcast. I'm

11:39

Khalil Jabran Mohammed. I'm

11:41

Benoit, We're two best friends,

11:43

one black, one white,

11:45

I'm a historian, and I'm a

11:47

journalist. And we are

11:49

back for season two of best

11:51

friends are where we have real

11:53

talk about the absurdities and

11:55

intricacies of race in America. We

11:58

know that interracial friendship isn't

11:59

gonna solve the problems of our inclusion

12:02

by a country. So what can

12:04

we do? Check-in

12:06

each week and find out as we talk

12:08

to notable guests like former attorney

12:10

general, Eric Holder, and restored

12:12

just leader Danielle Starrett,

12:14

about how to make sense at this

12:16

moment. We

12:17

will talk about everything and

12:19

historic interracial friendships, the

12:22

fall of American democracy, the

12:24

Marvel Comics TV shows, and

12:26

more. Listen

12:30

to some of my best friends are on the

12:32

iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

12:34

or wherever you get your podcast.

12:38

Welcome

12:40

back. My guest this week, Dean McKay,

12:42

is newly retired from one of the most

12:45

prestigious and challenging jobs in all

12:47

of media. During his eight

12:49

years as the New York Times executive

12:51

editor, a role more commonly known as

12:53

editor in chief, Dean championed

12:55

massive cultural shifting stories on

12:57

topics like the global effects of climate

12:59

change. The presidency of Donald

13:01

Trump the fall of Harvey

13:03

Weinstein the ensuing Me too movement,

13:05

and the COVID-nineteen pandemic.

13:08

During his tenure, Dean helped bring

13:10

the paper twenty two bullet surprises,

13:13

the most of any top editor

13:15

in decades. When he

13:17

became exec of editor in twenty fourteen, the

13:19

Times had less than a million digital subscribers.

13:21

This year, shortly after Dean's

13:23

retirement, the Times reported a

13:25

remarkable eight point six million

13:27

paid digital

13:28

subscribers. All in

13:29

all, not bad for an industry commonly

13:31

thought to have its heyday in the rearview

13:34

mirror.

13:36

but Dean has always had journalism in his

13:38

sights. Born and raised in New Orleans

13:40

as one of five boys, the son of

13:42

restaurant owners who owned a creole restaurant in

13:44

town called Dean received a

13:46

scholarship to study English at Columbia

13:48

University but

13:49

dropped out shortly before graduating. He

13:51

took up an

13:52

internship in a new Orleans Dean paper,

13:54

the state's item. and rest is

13:56

literally in the history books. His

13:58

career, which started in reporting before shifting

14:00

to editing, has taken him to the

14:02

Times Picarieun, Chicago Tribune,

14:04

the New York Times, and the LA Times where

14:06

he was also executive editor.

14:09

Though he stepped down from the top of the New York

14:11

Times masthead earlier this year, He's

14:13

remained on staff to lead a local investigative

14:15

fellowship dedicated to help counter a

14:17

crisis in local news. Of course,

14:19

he's incredibly passionate about

14:21

There's so much more

14:23

I could say about Dean and his exceptional

14:26

career, but I'd rather you hear it directly

14:28

from him. During

14:28

our conversation, I had the chance to ask

14:31

him about some of the massive New York Times

14:33

stories he helped edit, as well as the

14:34

future of the media in story. Some of the

14:36

stories making headlines right now and much

14:38

much more. Cecilin for one of

14:40

my favorite interviews of the season, and

14:43

please welcome this week's at your

14:45

service guest, Dean Bache.

14:47

Hi, Dean. How are you?

14:48

Good. Thank you for helping me. This

14:50

will be fun.

14:51

Thank you for doing this site. I know you're

14:53

a very, very busy Dean, so I really

14:55

appreciate you. Of course. Taking the time in doing

14:57

this, me. Are you in New York right now? I'm in

14:59

New York. I go back four between New York and Los

15:01

Angeles, but I haven't Dean in New York right

15:03

now. Okay. Nice. Well, I'm in

15:05

Los Angeles and Oh, you are. I

15:07

was in Los Angeles till two nights ago.

15:09

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's

15:12

rainy, New York, London weather.

15:14

It's like a a mix. So you're not missing out

15:16

on any sunshine. again, thank

15:18

you so much for doing this. Mhmm. I've I've

15:20

been really, really excited to

15:22

speak to you. And I kinda

15:24

wanna start from From

15:26

the beginning, I wanna start with your journalism

15:28

roots a little bit. Mhmm. Becoming

15:31

executive editor of The New York

15:33

Times, which is the top

15:35

job at arguably the

15:37

most restricted newspaper on the planet.

15:39

You know, it's no ordinary

15:41

career journey and particularly

15:43

hitting a milestone in being the paper's first

15:45

ever black executive editor. Right.

15:48

You got your start in local newsrooms,

15:50

in your liens, your hometown. And I also

15:52

read that you left college after

15:54

three years without a diploma -- Right.

15:56

-- because you knew you wanted to pursue journalism.

15:59

and you just wanted to get right into it. When did

16:01

the journalism bug first

16:03

bite? And when did you know it was like it

16:05

was gonna be your life's call it? you

16:07

know, it was an accident. I grew

16:09

up in New Orleans, as you said, and I'd never

16:11

been outside of New Orleans or Mississippi.

16:14

But I knew I knew I wanted to

16:16

live someplace else, see something else. So I

16:18

I applied to Columbia and got in.

16:20

I don't think I could get in today.

16:24

I was terribly homesick. All of

16:26

my friends stayed in New Orleans, and I was

16:28

just desperate to spend a

16:30

little bit more time in New Orleans. So I

16:32

applied for an internship at

16:34

the the afternoon paper in New

16:36

Orleans. Mainly because it

16:38

was a job. It was like a respectable

16:40

way to take a semester off

16:42

from school. and I fell in love with it from

16:44

the very beginning. It

16:45

struck every chord in me,

16:48

curiosity, a desire

16:50

to sort of speak truth to power,

16:52

the camaraderie of a newsroom.

16:54

I mean, it was a different era.

16:56

Everybody smoked cigarettes in the newsroom,

16:59

everybody was close and you made your friendships in

17:01

the newsroom. And it was

17:03

just magical. And I I couldn't go back.

17:05

I tried to go back to But after

17:07

that, it was it was just the

17:09

most exciting adrenaline rush

17:12

that I'd ever experienced. And I also felt like

17:14

I was doing something big and important too.

17:16

I

17:16

love that. That's Yeah. I guess, you

17:19

know, when you when you find something that you love

17:21

it, it no longer feels like work.

17:23

It just kind of you are. That's right. It

17:25

becomes everything that you, I don't

17:27

know, that you believe in and that you want to see in

17:29

the world as well. And I think

17:31

that's really cool. You you first

17:33

joined the New York Times in nineteen ninety, and

17:35

then for a second time in two thousand and

17:38

six after a monumental split

17:40

surprise winning career. You

17:42

then became the executive editor

17:44

in twenty fourteen. Something

17:46

I imagine felt like

17:48

the ultimate price. in

17:49

journalism. Can you tell

17:51

me, from your perspective, what you

17:53

think is so special about The New York Times?

17:55

you know You know, A

17:57

former New York Times editor said once

17:59

that if the New York Times didn't exist,

18:01

nobody would build it again.

18:03

It's unimaginable. It cares more

18:05

about journalism than prophets. It's

18:08

controlled by an altruistic

18:10

family that would rather

18:12

see the paper continue and thrive get rich.

18:15

It has over generations built to

18:17

global reach. It's just a special

18:20

different place and I say that

18:22

as somebody who has loved other newspapers, it's a

18:24

very unique institution and

18:26

with with the flaws of of

18:28

any institution. And it has

18:31

tremendous influence and power, which is

18:33

sometimes a little scary. But

18:35

for me, if you had told me

18:37

forty years ago, ten years ago,

18:40

that I was gonna become edited of The New York Times. That that

18:42

would have been on them. I mean, I didn't even barely

18:44

heard of The New York Times when I was a kid.

18:46

We certainly didn't read The New York Times

18:48

as a kid. but it felt

18:50

like you had a very high calling

18:53

when you ran The New York Times. It felt

18:55

like you had tremendous responsibility.

18:58

your mistakes hurt bad and your successes

19:01

like the, you know, sparking helping

19:03

to spark the me too movement.

19:06

felt

19:06

fantastic and powerful and

19:08

like you made lasting change.

19:10

No, it's a it's a truly It's

19:12

hard to even describe. see. It's

19:14

it's incredible. You started your your Dean year

19:17

old executive editor when president

19:19

Obama was in the White House. Mhmm. And when

19:21

you left Earlier this year, democracy was

19:23

under attack on the heels of the

19:25

January sixth in the election with

19:27

the conversation in the United States

19:29

turning to, quote, unquote,

19:31

a stolen election, which, of course, is a total

19:33

falsehood. Right. President

19:35

Trump says that he will run

19:37

again in twenty twenty four, and I

19:40

I wonder if you're at the helm of

19:42

the New York Times now, how would you be

19:44

preparing your newsroom for this

19:46

potential third Trump run and

19:48

second presidency? And

19:50

how would it differ from his first time in office?

19:53

Well, the first time he ran, we and

19:55

it was a mistake. We didn't take him seriously

19:58

enough.

19:58

I think we thought, you know, he'd he'd come up

20:01

in New York real estate, and he was sort of

20:03

like a flamboyant,

20:05

even sometimes clownish figure.

20:08

Yeah. And a reality star. Yes. That's

20:10

right. I don't think I don't we didn't think he could

20:12

win. And I don't think we took him seriously

20:14

till till the end. we

20:16

investigated him. We wrote a lot of stories about his his abusive

20:19

women. We wrote a lot of stories about his

20:21

business. But I I remember not

20:23

thinking he could win. I

20:26

think that we would regard him very

20:28

differently today. We would

20:30

regard him as somebody who could

20:32

win, I also think that he

20:34

he challenged us in really interesting ways.

20:36

I mean, all politicians lie

20:39

to some degree. But I think

20:41

there's no question that Trump lied

20:43

and stretched the truth to

20:45

a greater degree than any

20:47

of his predecessors. And I think we understand

20:49

that better now And I think

20:51

we would be much much I mean,

20:54

I won't be running the times then, but I think

20:56

we'll be much much more ready

20:58

to deal with that and to confront

21:00

that and to write about that clearly.

21:02

Putting

21:03

Trump to the side and I think

21:06

we should do that more often. Yeah.

21:08

I'd I'd love to

21:11

spend some time asking you about few of,

21:13

like, the major stories that

21:15

you spearheaded at the times.

21:17

Like, I'd love to know the stories that you'd

21:19

like to be remembered for and the stories

21:21

that you think in some brought a larger

21:24

conversation. Well, the story that I and

21:26

I didn't expect this to happen. The story that

21:28

that I most, I think,

21:29

will be remembered for and started

21:31

the largest conversation was the Harvey Weinstein

21:34

story, which has just been

21:36

made into a movie called, she said, think

21:38

any of us I mean, I was the executive

21:40

editor and I was deeply involved in in

21:42

editing and working with the reporters on

21:44

the story. I don't think any of

21:47

us thought it would have the dramatic impact on the world.

21:49

I mean, I thought we had a really good

21:51

story, but to

21:53

watch that story reverberate

21:56

across the country and around the world and to

21:58

see the results and to see the questions

22:00

being raised about other men and

22:02

to see the conversation it sparked,

22:04

I think that's one of those, like, once in a lifetime,

22:07

newspaper stories that

22:09

actually changes the world. People

22:11

had discussions after that story.

22:13

that they weren't having before. And I

22:16

think it will have a great impact.

22:19

I also think that a story we

22:21

did last year where we proved

22:23

that some of the American drone strikes

22:25

actually killed civilians was a

22:27

really important story because I

22:29

think that the drone program starting with

22:31

the Bush administration and continuing to

22:33

the Obama administration was

22:36

expanded and people thought

22:38

they had discovered like perfect way

22:40

to wage war if you're if you're America. Right?

22:42

No American soldiers get killed. You have

22:44

this great technology. And I

22:47

think we proved last

22:49

year in this amazing series of

22:51

stories by this wonderful freelancer who

22:53

who we brought on to staff, that

22:55

that in fact is not true. that civilians

22:57

were killed. We proved it with

23:00

technology. We proved it with the reporting. And I

23:02

think it I

23:04

hope that that theory changes the

23:06

way Americans think about war

23:08

and forces a conversation about

23:11

what modernized warfare looks

23:13

like. And then in fact, there isn't a way to

23:15

modernize yourself out of the moral

23:17

questions of war. And I

23:19

think that that story should I

23:21

hope that Suri has lasting impact

23:23

as well.

23:24

To touch on the

23:26

Harvey Weinstein story to begin with, I mean,

23:28

that was bombshell expose.

23:31

It was so much

23:33

investigative journalism and it was

23:35

incredibly culture shifting. I mean,

23:37

people still it's like a domino

23:39

effect of that story coming

23:41

out that people have found the strength,

23:42

women have found the strength to really be

23:44

able to just speak up against

23:47

their oppressor. what was it like

23:49

behind the scenes to go against

23:51

one of Hollywood's biggest bellies?

23:53

And, like, what were some of the problems that you

23:55

and and your writers

23:57

faced. The writers

23:58

faced the biggest problem because it was convincing

24:00

women to talk

24:02

about these humiliations in their

24:04

lives that it never they had never talked about.

24:06

And some of them were true humiliations.

24:09

Women whose careers were

24:11

thwarted women who, you

24:13

know, whose lives were changed by their

24:15

encounters with Harvey Weinstein.

24:17

Inside the newsroom, he was so

24:20

used to Most people don't know Dean Harvey Weinstein was a

24:22

big advertiser of The New York Times. So

24:24

that never influence anything. It

24:26

never does. We keep that separate.

24:28

But he call he kept calling me

24:31

because he wanted

24:31

to talk and I he

24:33

wanted to talk, like, big guy to

24:35

big guy. Did you take that call?

24:38

I answered the phone because I answered my own

24:40

phone. Okay. And he said and it's captured

24:42

in the in the movie. He said, Dean, I'd

24:44

like to talk to you. And I

24:47

said, no. You talk to the

24:49

reporters. Partly,

24:49

the reporters were women, and I I

24:51

could tell he wanted to talk to, like, a

24:53

big guy. Right. And I said, no. You talked to

24:55

other reporters. You know, you and I are not gonna have the kind

24:57

of relationship where you talk to

25:00

me around my reporters backs. Talk to my

25:02

reporters. And he kept

25:04

trying. And I think he just slot way

25:06

he had operated in Hollywood. You know, a powerful

25:08

guy picks up the phone, talks another

25:10

powerful guy, and I didn't I don't wanna

25:12

have that kind of power throughout my

25:14

I I think my upbringing and the fact

25:16

that I didn't grow up with power has

25:19

always made me suspicious of power even though

25:21

I guess you could make the case a half power.

25:23

but I never wanted to be part of the club.

25:25

And Harvey was trying to learn me into the

25:27

club, and I didn't wanna have that Dean of

25:29

conversation with him. Did I know that

25:31

this story was gonna, like, land

25:34

like

25:34

a bombshell? Oh, god. No.

25:36

Dean. I mean,

25:38

we were

25:38

racing to beat the New York. Ronan Faroe,

25:41

who's terrific, was working on a story. And

25:43

I thought, oh my god, we gotta beat the

25:45

New Yorker. and we beat

25:47

them, thank God, that they did a great

25:49

story too. And, no, I didn't think it was

25:51

gonna have this impact.

25:52

Can you take us behind the

25:55

curtain a little bit on the on

25:57

the Weinstein story. Like, can you

25:59

remember

25:59

when

25:59

Jody can to and Meghan too, he brought

26:02

the story to you. I'm just so

26:04

fascinated to know what the what the

26:06

process of it and and what it looked

26:08

like internally.

26:09

Yeah. Well, it started actually with the Bill

26:12

O'Reilly story. We did a

26:14

story about Bill O'Reilly the

26:16

huge number of settlements he had paid

26:18

for women who felt miss treated. And that

26:20

opened up a whole new

26:22

world of reporting for us. It's really

26:24

hard to prove sexual

26:27

abuse or or allegations of

26:29

sexual harassment because the woman makes

26:31

a claim, the guy denies it.

26:34

discovering that there were settlements opened a whole

26:36

new line of reporting for us.

26:38

So after that story, I

26:40

got a group of editors together Rebecca

26:42

Corbett and Matt the great Matt

26:44

Purdy, who's our investigations editor and

26:47

Jody Kantor. And

26:49

we

26:49

said, we've now learned how to do something

26:52

different. Where else can we

26:54

take this? And Jody came

26:56

back within a couple weeks and

26:59

said Hollywood. And she said, I'm

27:01

already hearing stuff about Harvey

27:03

Weinstein. And

27:04

that

27:05

was like, that was the moment.

27:07

And then Meghan TUI later

27:09

joined us. And I remember thinking in

27:11

all the discussions because I would meet with him

27:14

regularly, this is gonna be a hard story

27:16

to get. And in fact,

27:18

we kept getting close but

27:20

not there. We had off the

27:22

record stories from women, but we

27:24

didn't have documentation. We didn't have

27:26

the settlements. Until Jody

27:28

came back from this trip to London

27:30

after interviewing this courageous woman and

27:32

it's the scene as described

27:34

over ten minutes in in the

27:37

movie, she said. And

27:38

she comes back with the first set of

27:40

documents. And it was like, was the moment we knew

27:42

we had it. And that was the

27:45

moment we knew it was gonna

27:47

be reportable. And then the last

27:49

moment, if I can describe

27:51

it, We still

27:52

didn't have enough women on the record. We

27:54

were gonna go with the story anyway.

27:57

And Jody and Meghan

27:59

rightly argued would be

28:01

great to have the voices, the voice

28:03

of a movie star. My view

28:06

was, let's just get the story in the

28:08

paper. And I remember at

28:10

the moment Jody got a call from Ashley Judd,

28:12

and Ashley Judd said she would

28:14

go on the record. And Jody

28:16

was standing in the newsroom surrounded

28:19

by a bunch of us and she started to cry.

28:21

And I had a lump in my throat

28:23

because it meant that we were

28:25

gonna have now a very human

28:28

and powerful story.

28:30

Well,

28:30

III have to ask,

28:32

what was it like to see yourself?

28:35

on the big screen that in the movie

28:37

she said, which is now actually in cinemas.

28:40

How did that feel? It was a

28:41

little weird to have to see another

28:43

person called Dean. But he did

28:46

a great he's a great actor.

28:48

He did a great job. It was very funny.

28:50

He used he used my office.

28:53

I only met him at the New York

28:55

premiere. He used we so we never talked in

28:57

advance. He used my office.

28:59

The scenes that are in

29:01

the movie are accurate, my conversations with

29:03

Harvey Weinstein and the lawyers. In fact, they were

29:05

a little nastier on

29:07

my part than than the

29:09

actor, which was fun. You know,

29:12

they made a brilliant choice in that movie, I

29:14

have to say, which I just thought was

29:16

brilliant and fair and right. They

29:18

centered the stories of the women reporters and

29:21

their editors. And

29:22

I just thought that was fantastic. That's

29:24

good. It's good when the when the film portrays

29:26

it in a way that you that

29:28

you find to be correct. Yeah.

29:30

We'll

29:34

be

29:34

right back.

29:41

Ask

29:45

yourself

29:45

this. If you learned that you

29:47

had an increased genetic likelihood of

29:50

developing a condition that could affect

29:52

your health, How would that

29:54

change your life?

29:57

Hi. I'm Baritone Dean Thursday.

29:59

Join

29:59

me in the new season of spit. original

30:02

podcast from iHeartRadio Dean three

30:05

in me, as we learn how

30:07

understanding your health can begin

30:09

with understanding what your genetics

30:11

say about you. Over the coming weeks

30:13

and months, we hear from twenty three

30:15

of today's most influential

30:18

podcasters as they explore their

30:20

own health discoveries and how insights about

30:22

their genetics have put them on a path toward

30:24

a healthier life.

30:30

Listen to spit on the iHeartRadio app,

30:32

Apple Podcast, or wherever you

30:34

get your podcast.

30:43

I'm Khalil Dibran Mohammed. I'm

30:45

Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one

30:48

black, one white, I'm a

30:50

historian, and I'm a

30:52

journalist. and we are back for season

30:54

two of some of my best friends

30:56

are where we have real talk about

30:58

the absurdities and intricacies of

31:00

race in America up. We know that interracial friendship

31:03

isn't gonna solve the problems of our

31:05

anti divided country. So

31:08

what can we do. Mhmm. Check-in each

31:10

week and find out as we talk to

31:12

notable guests like former attorney

31:14

general, Eric Holder and restorative justice

31:16

leader, Danielle Dean. about how to

31:18

make sense at this moment. We

31:21

will talk

31:21

about everything from historic

31:24

interracial friendships, the fall

31:26

of Americans and my comparisons,

31:28

the Marvel Comics TV shows,

31:30

and more.

31:32

Listen to some

31:34

of my best friends are on the

31:36

iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

31:39

you get your podcast. Hey,

31:41

this is

31:41

Alec Mappa. Hey, Lany we're

31:44

the host of school friends, the official RuPaul's

31:46

Drag Race podcast. We can't

31:48

wait for the new season of Secret's

31:50

Celebrity Drag Race. each one, this

31:52

season is totally different from the last. Nine

31:55

stars compete in the ultimate

31:57

lipstick showdown. They'll undergo

31:58

unbelievable drag

31:59

transformations while keeping their

32:02

identity's top secret. Listen

32:03

to squirrel friends, the official

32:05

RuPaul's Dragon Ridge podcast on

32:07

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

32:09

wherever you get your podcast. Surely,

32:15

one of the defining stories

32:17

of your tenure and a viewer in

32:19

my lifetime is is climate change.

32:22

as well. Yeah. How do you cover a

32:24

story about potential planetary

32:27

collapse and keep it fresh

32:29

and interesting and urgent day

32:31

in and day out? The first decision we

32:33

made was the executive effort for eight years.

32:35

So we dramatically expanded our

32:38

climate. Dean. To the point, I'm I'm sure we

32:40

have the biggest climate team of any of

32:42

the major newspapers. But

32:44

we did one thing that I thought was it

32:46

wasn't my idea. It was the editor's

32:49

idea. She decided to

32:51

tell the story visually

32:53

as as often as possible.

32:55

And I thought that was brilliant, and I will not

32:57

take credit for it. So she would

32:59

show I mean, she presented these these

33:02

wonderful graphics and videos that

33:04

really showed the impact of climate change. In a

33:06

much more powerful way than you could ever

33:08

describe in words. Right?

33:11

And I think that made a huge difference. And I think she pioneered

33:13

that work. A lot of people do that

33:15

work now, but I think our climate team first

33:18

started doing it. It's

33:20

hard. Climate is one of those stories that

33:22

it is an existential

33:24

story. It is one of the most powerful

33:26

stories of our time. But it's

33:28

still hard. You know, every --

33:31

Yeah. -- month, there's a new study that this

33:33

much more is being lost.

33:35

And I think people get

33:37

used to that. One of the great challenges

33:39

of journalism. Of

33:42

daily journalism, is how to tell

33:44

the most powerful stories

33:46

day in

33:47

and day out in a way that they

33:50

resonate. and climate change may be the

33:52

most powerful example of that.

33:54

With

33:54

those stories that we just mentioned

33:56

in mind, can you walk me through

33:58

the process of

33:59

prioritizing stories? like -- Mhmm. --

34:01

choosing which pieces and topics

34:03

got prime real estate on page one

34:05

or the home page or

34:07

the alerts that were sent out from the New

34:09

York Times app. Yeah. How does

34:10

that all happen? It's

34:13

a very unscientific and

34:16

it's changed dramatically with the with the arrival of digital

34:19

journalism. I mean, it's a mix

34:21

of a lot of it is

34:24

gut. News organizations have a character

34:26

like our character is serious

34:28

and I don't mean that to denigrate

34:30

the news organizations that have

34:32

a different character. I mean, the Washington Post, which

34:34

which is one of the great newspapers,

34:36

and I love it, their focus

34:39

is on politics. So when they sit at the table and

34:41

make decisions about what gets the most play, they're gonna lean a

34:44

little bit more

34:46

toward politics. our

34:48

focus is like probably a little more

34:50

international news and politics.

34:52

So we might I mean,

34:54

on any given day, we might lean more

34:56

toward you know, the protests

34:58

in China. But

34:59

in a nitty gritty way, what happens

35:01

is we have a morning

35:03

meeting. That's like the most exciting meeting

35:05

of the day. It's like thing I miss

35:07

most about not being added anymore is that

35:10

meeting. Because all of the

35:12

department heads come into

35:14

a and they talk about what their best stories are. And you feel like

35:16

you're getting like a, you know, a

35:18

one

35:18

hour seminar from

35:20

a lot of smart people you know,

35:22

the culture editor gets up and says, you know, hey, there's a

35:24

new play and it's fantastic and it's the best

35:26

thing we've ever seen. The foreign editor gets up and

35:29

says the China protests have expanded.

35:32

and, you know, the government is gonna have to make changes in

35:34

its COVID policies. And then the Washington

35:36

Bureau chief gets up and says,

35:39

well, you know, Biden is going to do

35:41

this with student Dean. And and and it's,

35:43

like, on and on. And you listen

35:45

to all these things. It's really exciting.

35:47

And then you everybody leaves, and then a small number of

35:49

us say, okay, let's talk about this. Right? And then

35:51

with debate, somebody says, well, God, jeez. Come

35:54

Dean. Student loan story. That's the

35:56

big story. Right? Somebody else

35:58

might say, no. Come on. The China protests. That

36:00

might be the biggest story. In the print era,

36:02

that was a

36:03

Dua discussion because you only

36:05

can only lead with one story. In the

36:07

digital era, you can say, well, look, let's lead

36:09

with China now. It's the right

36:11

time of day. and then

36:13

we can elevate the student story later

36:16

in the day. But a lot of it is

36:18

gut. You know,

36:18

the the

36:19

best argument by the way

36:21

having diverse voices in a

36:24

newsroom is you don't want that

36:26

decision to be made by, like, ten white

36:28

guys, all of the

36:30

same age. So when we have

36:32

those debates, those debates are, you know,

36:34

just me. I'm obviously not a white

36:36

guy. They're women. And it's just

36:38

like this from this collective comes

36:40

this judgment, which sometimes

36:42

is flawed.

36:43

There's nothing more flawed

36:44

than a daily news report. Right?

36:48

because it's because what I just described is a lot of really well

36:50

meaning smart people struggling

36:52

to make the decision of the day, and it's

36:54

really exciting.

36:56

that

36:56

sounds really exciting. I mean, we do

36:58

something at Service ninety five at

37:00

a very different capacity. But every Tuesday, you

37:02

know, we have our meetings and we

37:05

sit down we talk about ideas that we want to

37:07

put in for a newsletter. And so that's one

37:09

of my favorite parts of the

37:11

train. You should come to our meeting sometimes. I

37:13

would absolutely love to. I'd love

37:16

that. I'll get you an invitation. Okay?

37:18

Oh, thank you. Thank

37:20

you. Like like so many

37:22

Lipa, I I celebrated the

37:24

publication of Nikolayna Jones' sixteen

37:26

nineteen project -- Yep. -- in

37:28

the New York Times. Mhmm. And I learned

37:30

so much from it. It was something that

37:33

we also covered on our on

37:35

our newsletter. Can you describe

37:38

the project and all its spin offs

37:40

to our listeners who may not be familiar

37:42

and -- Yeah. -- and how involved were you in

37:44

the development? And did you

37:46

take much persuading? Yeah.

37:48

The sixteen nineteen project, which really was the baby of Nicole

37:50

Hanna Jones, who's a reporter for the

37:52

magazine of The New York Times. was

37:56

an attempt to tell the story of American history

37:58

with a little bit of a different

37:59

perspective, from the perspective

38:02

of black Lipa, and what

38:05

history looked like from the perspective

38:07

of black Lipa. And it

38:10

centered the black point of view in American

38:12

history, which

38:14

was courageous heroic and I think sparked a real debate

38:16

and discussion about what history

38:18

looks like from the perspective of

38:22

other people. It was also deeply reported.

38:24

Nicole is brilliant and has has

38:26

become not just a great reporter but

38:28

a little bit of a

38:30

historian herself. And I think that

38:32

was challenging and provocative

38:34

work. I hired Nicole,

38:36

and I remember the the interview, the

38:38

job interview. in which

38:40

she said to me, are you

38:42

sure you're gonna let me do the

38:44

kind of work that I

38:46

wanna do? And

38:46

I said, of course, I am. You think I'm an idiot? I'm not gonna let you do

38:48

the kind of work you came here to do. Why

38:51

would I hire you first? she

38:54

and her editor at the magazine conceived

38:56

of the project before they

38:58

brought it to me, which happens

39:01

all the time at the paper, like you bring you

39:03

you sort of come up with the nuts

39:05

and bolts. It took no persuading.

39:08

I thought it was a brilliant concept. was

39:10

brilliant idea. I thought it was

39:12

a provocative magazine

39:14

idea. The magazine should be

39:16

provocative. The magazine should spark thinking

39:19

in a way that the news page is

39:22

down. And I remember when

39:24

Nicole and Jake Silverstein, who

39:26

Dean their editor, and a

39:27

Dua Silverman who was her

39:29

actual line editor, walked

39:32

me through

39:34

the pages the layouts. This was before the type was

39:36

actually in and the pictures explained

39:38

to me what was gonna be there. The

39:40

writers they had attracted. many

39:43

of whom I'd heard of. And I thought,

39:45

oh my god. This is

39:47

just This is

39:48

brilliant. And I think that too,

39:51

actually, I think, barked a provocative discussion.

39:53

And the fact that it was in the

39:55

pages of The New York Times,

39:57

which some

39:58

people

39:59

seen try to wanna divorce it from The New York Times because they think The New York

40:02

Times is this sort of

40:04

establishment news organization. And

40:06

here was this magazine piece that was actually

40:10

challenging establishment history.

40:12

I think the fact that it was in our pages

40:14

given more power. It's incredible.

40:16

I mean, in the magnitude of the project

40:18

as well, from the essays to the podcast

40:21

to the book. It's --

40:22

Yeah. -- it's really really remarkable

40:25

work. But we've We've also seen backlash against

40:27

the sixteen nineteen project Dean some

40:30

corners of the Republican Party, you

40:32

know, culminating

40:34

in it being banned in Florida Schools

40:36

and Colleges, in Rhonda Santos' stop the woke

40:39

bill. Yeah. How worried

40:41

are you about whether this

40:43

kind of journalism can survive, let

40:46

alone thrive under Trump

40:48

or a

40:50

DeSantis presidency. I'll quickly tell you a story that I

40:52

told when I introduced Nicole

40:54

at the launch party for the

40:56

sixteen nineteen project

40:58

very quickly. I

41:00

grew up in in Louisiana, in New Orleans. I was

41:02

born in nineteen fifty six, so I

41:05

grew up in the sixties. and

41:07

all of the books, the history books in

41:10

my school library, my grade school

41:12

library, which was an all

41:14

black Catholic

41:14

school in New Orleans in a

41:16

working class to porting abroad. They

41:19

were biographies of

41:21

civil war generals. So I grew up thinking, Robert

41:23

Lee was a hero. I grew up thinking that the

41:25

civil civil war generals were

41:28

heroes. They were heroic, you know. And I

41:30

would watch

41:32

movies as a very little kid, six or seven, and I was cheering

41:34

for the confederacy because

41:37

those are the books that

41:38

were put in front of me. There

41:41

might have

41:41

been a Ulysses grant book in there somewhere,

41:44

but those are the books that were put that were

41:46

offered to our school.

41:48

The significance

41:50

of Nicole's of the sixteen nineteen project and and and Nicole

41:52

and her collaborators is they

41:54

put a history in front of

41:56

the kid that

41:58

I was that's very different. And that

41:59

changes the way you look at

42:01

the country, but also makes you know

42:03

less proud of the country, but makes

42:05

you understand that for

42:08

me, Robert Lee, should not be my hero. Mhmm. And

42:10

I think that making sure

42:13

that kids see that is

42:16

vital. If I seen that as a

42:18

child, that would have changed my

42:20

worldview. I am not

42:22

worried actually. that those kinds

42:24

of stories won't be

42:26

told. I think the cat is out of the

42:28

bag. And I know that politicians

42:30

will push some politicians

42:32

don't want a full bodied portrait of America to be

42:34

discussed, but American history is

42:36

complicated. All history is

42:38

complicated and

42:40

nuanced. And trouble. There's

42:42

no clean pure history.

42:44

And I think that Nicole started a

42:46

discussion that I don't think it's gonna

42:48

go away. and I

42:49

don't think that anybody's gonna stop that train. There may

42:51

be bumps, there may be legislation that

42:53

slows it down, but

42:56

I think in the era of social media when

42:58

people have access to information, and when mainstream

43:01

news organizations like The New York

43:03

Times do that kind of work, I'm

43:06

not worried. I think that's changed

43:07

the discussion in a profound way.

43:10

That feels that feels really

43:12

reassuring to me. Say that because I

43:14

feel like it's a scary

43:16

time with librarians being

43:18

-- Sure. -- you know, cut off

43:20

their jobs and books being taken off

43:22

bookshelves. But I think you're you're

43:24

absolutely right. in the sense

43:26

that, you know, thank God for the

43:28

internet also. Yeah. But

43:30

there's

43:30

no going back on things that we already

43:32

know. this has happened before before history

43:34

where, you know, Americans

43:37

Dean America. I

43:39

think they're about you know,

43:42

wanting the full story of America

43:44

told in all of its, you

43:46

know,

43:47

humility warts To me,

43:48

that's the essence of journalism. When full, complete,

43:52

independent stories are told,

43:54

people embrace the richness. I

43:56

believe that

43:58

people that people accept rich stories

44:00

when

44:00

they're delivered to them. I

44:02

wanna make sure

44:03

that we talk about

44:06

a topic that overlaps your world in mind last year.

44:08

Mhmm. In twenty twenty

44:10

one, rabbi Shmoelie boutique and

44:14

the organization he leads, which is the World Values Network,

44:16

paid for a full page

44:20

advertisement on Page A five

44:22

of The New York Times. And

44:24

this advert featured my face alongside

44:26

the faces of Gigi and Bella

44:29

Adidas. all superimposed over an

44:31

image of rockets. And the intention of

44:33

the ad was was clear, you know, in

44:35

response to her, our belief

44:37

about human rights. and that the

44:39

universal and applied to Israelis and Palestinians

44:42

surely attempted to link us to terrorism,

44:45

to genocide, and to

44:47

antisemitism. And while I'm

44:50

totally

44:50

mindful of the church

44:52

and state divide, that exists between the editorial

44:54

and the advertising departments of the New

44:57

York Times the size and the appearance

44:59

of the

44:59

advert next to next to

45:01

the other stories certainly at at

45:03

least to my eye and and

45:05

to many others too, you know, made it seem

45:07

like the story was

45:08

sanctioned and commissioned by the

45:11

paper, and and he

45:12

personally didn't make the call to allow.

45:14

Yeah. the ad prints face, but but since you're here on the podcast with

45:16

me,

45:16

I would really, really welcome the

45:18

opportunity to talk

45:19

about it. To to a degree that you can

45:21

speak to this. Yeah.

45:24

how could the New York Times publish

45:26

something so damaging and and so dangerous Dean,

45:29

so potentially dangerous to those

45:31

who are targeted? You know,

45:34

I do

45:34

I'm gonna I'm gonna honor church

45:37

and state, and it's probably worth

45:39

talking about the church and state

45:41

between us and advertising. for a beat

45:43

because it's it's so important about it, you know, who we are.

45:45

I can obviously sense the pain

45:47

this caused you. and

45:49

I I can obviously sense and

45:52

acknowledge how difficult

45:54

that must

45:54

have been for you. But I always

45:57

believed as the executive editor

45:59

that we should have no input in

46:01

advertising. Even advertising that attacked the

46:04

newsroom, which sometimes we publish

46:06

advertising that attacked

46:08

the newsroom. I just thought that

46:10

if we

46:10

get into the business in the newsroom

46:12

of having impact on

46:14

ads, You

46:17

know, we do investigative stories

46:19

about people who advertise. We

46:21

do

46:21

investigative stories about big oil

46:24

companies who advertise. We do investigative

46:26

stories about governments that advertise. So

46:28

I'm I'm probably gonna be

46:30

hesitant to talk about it too

46:32

much about it other

46:34

than to obviously say this was difficult for you I so

46:36

honored the church and state

46:38

divide. And I so

46:40

feel like if I ever cross

46:43

step into that line at all. I'm opening

46:46

the door to to

46:48

difficulties and to even

46:50

possibly ethical

46:52

I'm not talking about yours as an ethical breach, but

46:54

it's like the Harvey

46:56

Weinstein story, nobody ever

46:58

came to me and said, In

47:00

fact, I'm gonna even try to understood how big an advertiser he was

47:02

until after the stories ran.

47:04

I hope you understand that.

47:07

Yeah. Of course, I understand it. And

47:09

like I said, I I respect

47:12

the the church and state

47:14

divide between the two, but you III

47:16

then, you know, I was going in and reading other

47:18

articles. And, you know,

47:20

I I was just wondering for the

47:22

New York Times what is the process of

47:24

vetting ads like that. I read in older, but

47:26

I think still relevant Q and

47:28

A with the then director of

47:31

advertising acceptability and You

47:34

said that you only decline or alter an opinion when

47:36

the message is clearly discriminatory, illegal,

47:40

libelous, or

47:42

hate speech. and I just can't get it in my head how that didn't

47:44

fall into that -- Yeah. --

47:45

into that category. Have you spoken

47:48

with them, by the way, with the

47:50

advertising department? No.

47:52

I I have not. You want to? because there

47:54

is there is a process. In fact,

47:56

to to show you how separate

47:59

we are, One day, when I became

48:02

executive

48:02

editor, the then publisher,

48:04

the father of the current publisher, had

48:06

only three direct reports. Me,

48:10

the head of the opinion page, and this

48:12

one guy who who managed advertising acceptability.

48:18

them about it. But I I just know so

48:20

little about it and

48:22

and sometimes look just for the record, sometimes

48:26

newspapers run ads that are

48:28

painful for the

48:29

journalist too.

48:32

I mean,

48:32

I don't know what would have happened if Harvey Weinstein had wanted to

48:34

run a full page, and he I don't think

48:36

at that point he could run one attacking

48:40

us. but he could have run

48:42

a full page ad, you know, extolling

48:44

his great career.

48:46

And I don't

48:46

know what would have happened in that case. but

48:49

Dean nobody would have called asked about it. Well, thank

48:51

you for hearing me

48:52

out. Of course. Of course. I I

48:54

guess all I all I ever really wanted

48:58

to do after, like, the ad was published was just

49:00

to have this sort of dialogue

49:02

with someone at the times. I'm happy to

49:04

have it. You know, to let

49:06

them know how it affected

49:08

me so I I appreciate you engaging. Of

49:10

course. While we're in

49:12

a break, why don't you take a moment to subscribe for

49:14

free to out your services newsletter, service

49:16

ninety five at WWW

49:19

dot service ninety five dot com.

49:21

We'll be right

49:22

back.

49:24

Ask

49:26

yourself

49:27

this. If you learned that

49:30

you had an increased genetic

49:32

likelihood of developing a condition

49:34

that could affect your health. How

49:36

would that change your

49:38

life? Hi.

49:40

I'm Baritone Day Thursday. Join me

49:43

in the new season of spit. An original podcast

49:45

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as we learn how understanding

49:50

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49:52

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49:54

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49:56

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49:58

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50:02

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50:04

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50:06

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50:08

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50:10

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50:12

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

50:14

or wherever you get your podcast.

50:24

I'm

50:26

Khalil Jabran Mohammed. I'm Ben Austin. We're

50:28

two best friends. One black, one

50:30

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50:33

I'm a journalist. and

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we are back for season two of some of my

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50:40

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50:42

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god.

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Listen to the Happiness Lab.

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On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

51:49

or wherever you get

51:52

your podcasts.

51:52

I

51:55

wanna shift

51:57

topics. A

51:59

little

51:59

bit lighter. But

52:02

the language that we use in

52:04

discussing the stories of the day is is so

52:06

important now more than

52:08

ever, and and I feel like it attracts a

52:10

ton of scrutiny and questions like

52:12

what, if at all, do you use

52:14

Latinx? When do you

52:16

capitalize black?

52:18

Mhmm. How do you define a woman? Mhmm. You know, when do you call out something

52:20

in a an elected official says as

52:22

a Dua. And I guess what what

52:25

I'm trying to say is you

52:27

know, when the words themselves are driving the news, how

52:29

do you decide which ones to use? Those are

52:31

like the hardest discussions.

52:35

You know? I mean, when I started

52:37

in journalism, there were still

52:39

newspapers that used the word Negra. And

52:41

I

52:41

remember one into the morgue of the time speaking inn when

52:43

I was there. And there was terrible stuff in

52:46

the morgues, you know, use use

52:48

of language. and

52:51

this was like a mainstream American newspaper. Right? I

52:53

think that you have to do two

52:56

things. You have

52:58

to acknowledge

52:58

that society

53:00

changes, and language has

53:02

to change with society. But

53:04

you also

53:05

have to make

53:08

sure that you're

53:09

not being pushed to change by

53:11

a small group of

53:14

vocal critics,

53:16

for instance. when

53:17

we debate using words Dean

53:20

Latinx, there are many members in the

53:22

Latino community who don't accept

53:24

that, and then

53:24

there's some who do. That's

53:26

complicated. Right? You don't wanna be disrespectful.

53:29

On the other hand, you

53:31

don't wanna be pushed into

53:34

using language that a very small

53:36

minority of people are embracing until

53:39

it becomes

53:40

embraced by the largest society.

53:42

So those really difficult. Tricky I

53:45

mean, I remember I'm old enough

53:47

to remember when Jesse

53:49

Jackson first said, We

53:51

should not use Dean, but we should use

53:54

African American. I don't even know

53:56

how many

53:56

years ago this was. I was a young

53:58

reporter.

53:58

It started a

53:59

very powerful debate in the black

54:02

community that I witnessed with my parents. My

54:04

parents' reaction was no,

54:06

we're black. then younger

54:08

generation said, no, we like

54:10

this African American thing. It acknowledges

54:14

our history. and it was like a full body debate. If you had started

54:16

using African American from the very

54:18

beginning, I think you would have

54:20

alienated a lot of black people who didn't wanna

54:22

be called American

54:24

who said I came here, I've been over generations.

54:27

Over time,

54:29

it settled in. and it

54:31

became not only accepted, but, you know, the

54:33

more common usage. So I think

54:35

that you do have to wait

54:37

a little bit before some

54:39

of

54:39

the language actually takes hold in a

54:42

larger community, if that makes

54:44

sense. Speaking

54:44

of community --

54:47

Mhmm. -- and I guess, the online community as

54:49

well. I I know that you have not

54:52

been Twitter's biggest fan

54:54

over the

54:56

years. and you've even criticized the platform. And even though

54:58

I did notice that you've returned to the platform

55:00

after an absence of about eight

55:04

years, Yes. That's right. I mean, what a time to

55:06

return? You know,

55:08

nothing to do

55:11

with Musk. Yeah. With people

55:13

wondering whether this is like the end

55:15

of Twitter -- Right. -- you know, how do

55:17

you view it legacy in

55:20

its potential absence, you know, in in --

55:22

Yeah. -- all the ways that it could

55:24

be bad

55:25

for journalism. Yeah. and it often

55:27

fostered misinformation. And I feel like now under Elon

55:29

Musk, it's fostering a lot

55:32

of misinformation.

55:33

also make it harder for people

55:36

to access their news and

55:38

and for journalists to

55:40

break stories? Twitter is just for the record.

55:42

Twitter is largely

55:43

has largely been good. And

55:46

social

55:47

media period. Right? I

55:49

mean, social media allows

55:51

a gay kid in

55:54

Louisiana to find out that

55:56

he's not alone. or she's not

55:58

alone. Social media

55:59

has brought the world together

56:02

and Twitter has allowed

56:04

thoughtful

56:04

critics to criticize

56:07

big institutions like The New York

56:09

Times that frankly sometimes should be listening

56:11

to the criticism. So overall,

56:13

might be you've Twitter is

56:16

not as negative as people think.

56:18

But I do think

56:20

that Twitter had too

56:22

big an influence on journalists.

56:24

I think journalists spend too much time on Twitter.

56:27

I look at some of

56:29

the most powerful, wonderful, brilliant

56:31

reporters in America spending

56:34

all their time on Twitter fighting people. And I'm like,

56:36

stop

56:36

fighting people. Go

56:37

do reporting. I think

56:39

it's it's a It's been a

56:41

big distraction for a lot. Reporting is the most

56:44

important kind of journalism.

56:46

You can convince yourself that Twitter

56:48

is your audience. It is not. it's

56:50

a part of your audience and it should be balanced against the

56:52

rest of your audience, but it's not

56:54

your audience. And if you start writing for

56:57

Twitter and if you start trying

56:59

to make Twitter which a lot of journalists admit

57:01

to me they do. Or you're trying

57:03

not to make Twitter mad or you're

57:05

trying to be influenced by media

57:07

Twitter you're sort of

57:10

overreact to everything. I think

57:12

by and large, that

57:14

skews journalism. And it

57:15

creates like a

57:17

collective mindset that keeps people from asking

57:19

really hard questions about the world. Right? It keeps people

57:22

from the best journalism,

57:25

asks hard questions. and

57:28

understands

57:28

that while

57:30

there are

57:30

settled questions in the world, racism

57:33

is

57:33

settled, antisemitism

57:36

is settled. lot of questions are not settled, and lot

57:38

of questions are really, really

57:40

difficult. You know, a lot

57:42

of questions with

57:44

poverty is really complicated.

57:46

And I think Twitter

57:47

pushes you away from

57:50

complicated solutions. and complicated

57:52

grappling with complicated questions.

57:54

And that's my complaint about

57:56

about Twitter. It has brought

57:58

many good things to

58:00

the world. But I wanted the journalists who worked for me to also

58:02

understand it brought things that were not so

58:04

good, and they needed to strike the

58:06

balance. And if they didn't wanna be on Twitter, they

58:08

didn't have to be

58:10

Twitter. which is why I'm not into it.

58:12

Except that one time. I've thought from that

58:14

one

58:14

time yet. That's that's

58:16

that's really interesting. I I

58:20

guess as someone who's

58:22

nearing

58:22

the one earmark

58:24

of my

58:26

Service ninety five newsletter in in this very podcast. Mhmm. I'd

58:29

be remiss not to ask you for

58:31

some guidance on sustainability and

58:34

success in the media industry.

58:36

And what if anything have

58:38

you looked to as you're guiding ethos

58:41

in your career? And What

58:43

should I continue to keep in mind as I take service ninety five into the next --

58:45

Yeah. -- phases of its life? First of all,

58:47

I I love

58:47

the fact.

58:50

that you grapple with these really difficult issues. In fact,

58:52

the most

58:53

important thing

58:54

I think for sustainability

58:57

is to not be afraid to grapple

58:59

with heart issues. And to be

59:01

a little open minded sometimes

59:03

about about the hardest issues

59:05

and to listen, I think sustainability is

59:07

when readers or listeners in this case are surprised

59:10

so that when you talk

59:12

to people Lipa

59:14

I'm not talking about trying out, you know,

59:16

anti Semites and racists. But

59:18

I'm talking about bringing in people

59:20

who might disagree with you. who

59:23

might

59:23

expand your worldview. You know,

59:26

they're they're very smart thoughtful

59:28

people who disagree with with

59:30

me about very important

59:32

issues. Right? Like, I you

59:34

know, my mother lost her house in Katrina. I

59:36

don't know what

59:37

the right way to repair New

59:39

Orleans is after Katrina. It's not just money. It's a really

59:41

complicated issue. I would just

59:43

say, take on

59:46

complicated issues people are smarter

59:48

than we give them credit for.

59:50

And listen, I think that's the biggest

59:52

advice I'd give to anybody. There's

59:54

less and less

59:55

curious probing journalism around.

59:58

So the more of it you can

59:59

do, that to me is

1:00:01

the height of

1:00:03

journalism. Thank you. That's definitely something that I

1:00:05

think is important, like you said, even in

1:00:07

the in the newsrooms, to have those debates, to

1:00:09

have those conversations, to

1:00:12

have different perspectives thrown at you so

1:00:14

you

1:00:14

can get the best possible stories. So That's

1:00:16

right. Yeah. I guess about staying curious

1:00:19

and surrounding yourself with people who don't necessarily

1:00:22

always agree with you, I think, is is

1:00:24

really, really good advice. But then

1:00:26

earlier this year, you

1:00:28

retired as executive editor, but you're still working for the New York

1:00:30

Times. Yep. And in your

1:00:32

new role, you're leading

1:00:34

an investigative fellowship

1:00:36

in which you'll teach young journalists how to do

1:00:38

reporting work on on a local level. And

1:00:40

you said when it was announced that

1:00:43

you wanted to you wanted the team to be looking

1:00:45

at institutions in places like Oklahoma and

1:00:48

Louisiana. And I

1:00:50

want to and by

1:00:52

asking you, why do we now

1:00:54

more than ever

1:00:55

need good local

1:00:57

investigative reporting and How can I and

1:00:59

people in future the help support those endeavors?

1:01:02

I think that great local newspapers

1:01:05

have been gutted. by the

1:01:08

economics of frankly the journalism

1:01:10

world we live in. I Dean, I spent a week

1:01:12

with a couple of colleagues in Jackson,

1:01:14

Mississippi and, you know, the Jackson Clarion Ledger,

1:01:16

which once had two or three hundred fifteen.

1:01:18

And I think it's hard to

1:01:20

investigate a reporting takes a long

1:01:23

time. It's risky. when we

1:01:26

started to Harvey Weinstein, sir, we didn't know what we're

1:01:28

gonna come up with. We might have come up with nothing

1:01:30

if if those courageous

1:01:32

women had not talked to us. So it's hard

1:01:34

to convince small newsrooms to

1:01:36

take big risks. So

1:01:38

my

1:01:38

goal is to help them, edit

1:01:40

the stories, time with them, help

1:01:43

them conceive stories to take

1:01:45

big risks. If we don't

1:01:47

do it, entire communities

1:01:49

will have no probing no

1:01:52

accountability journalism, local

1:01:54

communities, no calling out

1:01:56

truth, no calling out powerful

1:01:58

people when they screw up. And I

1:02:00

think that if we don't have that, think

1:02:03

about

1:02:03

it. It influences national politics.

1:02:05

It influences national

1:02:08

election It influences how elections are called around the world.

1:02:10

It influences who gets

1:02:12

to be powerful locally. So that to

1:02:14

me is vital.

1:02:15

What can people Dua?

1:02:18

call attention to it, invite on the program

1:02:20

one day a couple of editors

1:02:24

for smaller news

1:02:26

organizations to talk a little bit

1:02:28

about how they cope,

1:02:30

how they manage, maybe that'll help them

1:02:32

raise money. Maybe it will help their owners feel more pride

1:02:34

in what they do. Call

1:02:36

attention to their plight as much as

1:02:37

you can. Call attention to their

1:02:39

stories. If, like,

1:02:42

the Tampa Tribune breaks a big story Dean the

1:02:45

Jackson Clarion ledger breaks a big story.

1:02:47

And if there's a way for you to

1:02:49

call attention to it, god,

1:02:52

those newsrooms would levitate if

1:02:54

somebody with your

1:02:55

Dean influence notice their work.

1:02:57

Okay. Well, that's something to but

1:02:59

something to keep in mind. I can imagine for for small

1:03:02

newspapers, it is quite hard to break through

1:03:04

especially with the power of

1:03:05

the big ones.

1:03:08

That's right. Dean, thank you so much. Thank you. This has been

1:03:10

a wonderful conversation. I've really, really

1:03:12

enjoyed it.

1:03:15

So

1:03:15

goodbye. I

1:03:16

like to end my

1:03:18

conversations by asking for a couple of

1:03:20

recommendation lists from my guests. You grew

1:03:22

up the son of a New Orleans restaurant and

1:03:25

I'd love to know what

1:03:27

the sixth best

1:03:29

New Orleans restaurants, ones that people can still visit

1:03:32

today that you love. Okay.

1:03:34

Okay. Well, my

1:03:36

brother's family because my father

1:03:38

died until his restaurants

1:03:40

closed, runs a little neighborhood restaurant

1:03:42

called Little Dizzies. So

1:03:44

I always recommend Little Dizzies. I love

1:03:47

Little Dizzies. I love Ducky Chase, which is

1:03:49

in the

1:03:49

neighborhood I grew up in New Orleans.

1:03:51

I love Gallatois and commander's

1:03:54

palace for little bit

1:03:56

grander meals and

1:03:58

like a little another little

1:04:00

neighborhood, Tech The Way Place. I like a little place

1:04:02

called Loy users, which is near the New

1:04:04

Orleans race track. And I'm

1:04:05

sure I'm missing some because I haven't been home in a couple

1:04:07

of years, but that's my that's my list. You can't

1:04:09

go wrong with any of that. Amazing. Well, I

1:04:11

look forward to going and visiting and trying

1:04:14

those out. Dean, thank you so

1:04:16

much. I really appreciate it. This has been wonderful. Thank you

1:04:19

so much too.

1:04:22

Thanks again to all of you for tuning in and

1:04:24

thank you to Dean for joining me on our

1:04:26

season

1:04:26

two finale.

1:04:28

Between this

1:04:28

podcast in our Service ninety

1:04:30

five newsletter. I've been thinking a lot

1:04:32

about the power of media lately. So to get

1:04:34

to speak with Dean

1:04:35

about his prolific career and the stories he worked on

1:04:37

that change the world remains highlight of my

1:04:40

ear. For

1:04:41

those wanting more,

1:04:43

Dean generously provided a list of his

1:04:45

favorite news sources, which you can find in this week's

1:04:47

issue

1:04:47

of Surface ninety five. Our

1:04:50

free

1:04:50

weekly newsletter available subscribers via

1:04:52

service ninety five dot com. At

1:04:54

the same link, you'll also find

1:04:57

our brand new service ninety five website.

1:04:59

It contains all the back issues of our

1:05:01

newsletters. You can tell them very excited.

1:05:03

So please comb through the archives, read

1:05:05

the wonderful stories

1:05:08

we publish this year and let us know what you think. I want

1:05:10

to end by sending you all my love and

1:05:12

gratitude for joining me for the second season

1:05:14

of Dua Libera at

1:05:16

your service. I can't begin to

1:05:18

tell each and every one of you how much it's meant

1:05:20

to hear your feedback about what you've

1:05:22

loved, which conversations have stood out to you, and

1:05:24

which guests inspired you the way they

1:05:25

inspired me.