0:00

This is the BBC. This

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podcast is supported by advertising

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outside the UK.

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The press girls are back. How you feeling

0:10

today? Oh, let me not get into that. The

0:14

relationship dilemmas are back. If you've

0:16

got a bad self, we're going to see it. And there's going

0:18

to be consequences. There's going to be consequences. Your

0:20

voice notes are back. I just wanted

0:23

to tell you guys how that made me feel. And

0:25

don't forget, they've got your back. Trust

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me guys, when I have a mind, you lot will

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be sick and tired. Miriam Musa. Oh

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yeah. Adiola Patron.

0:34

I am that

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girl. Press. Listen on BBC Sounds.

0:38

BBC Sounds.

0:41

Music, radio, podcasts. Hello

0:57

and welcome to a surprise extra episode

1:00

of Dua Lipa at your service. I've

1:08

seen so many of your comments and messages

1:10

and I'm so touched to see how

1:12

much you've loved, not just the last

1:14

season, but all the episodes since we launched.

1:17

It's been a labour of love and a real, real

1:19

journey for me. I've been interviewed

1:21

a few times in my career so far, but I guess it's really different

1:23

being on the other side. I've

1:26

spent hours and hours reading up on our guests and I've just been

1:28

so inspired learning about each and every single one. The

1:33

things that they're passionate about,

1:35

the winding roads to get to where they are

1:37

now and how they show up in their lives. And I guess

1:39

for me, the most special part is what

1:41

we can learn from their journeys, the

1:44

highs and lows and how they're of service to us.

1:47

So this episode is an opportunity to look

1:49

back on our podcast so

1:51

far and to see what we've

1:54

learned.

1:54

And

2:00

if you're new here, firstly, I just

2:02

want to say welcome. And we hope this

2:04

will give you an idea of what to expect if

2:06

you want to go back and explore our previous episodes,

2:09

which I really hope you do.

2:16

In our latest season, we decided to dive

2:18

deeper into subjects that our guests are real

2:20

experts on. This led to

2:22

so many incredible conversations from Amelia

2:25

de Moldenburg on

2:26

Shooting Your Shot to Troye Sivan

2:28

on the power of identity. But one

2:30

that really resonated with me was

2:32

when I spoke to Billie Eilish about something

2:35

we both have very recent experience

2:37

of growing up.

2:43

I mean, it's just funny because I think back

2:45

to me then,

2:46

and I think

2:48

about how even at the time,

2:51

I told myself, you know, like, when

2:54

you're older, just everything you put out,

2:56

just like think about like, are you going to regret

2:58

this when you're older or

2:59

are you going to be embarrassed or is somebody going

3:01

to, you know, and I would do interviews

3:03

with people, you know, over 35. And

3:06

I was like 16 or 15. And

3:09

they would always say to me like, oh my God,

3:12

if I had like, how are you doing this right now?

3:14

Because if I had any camera on me when

3:16

I was your age, I would be so mortified.

3:18

And I remember thinking at the time, like, I'm

3:20

not going to be, I'm not going to, why would I be mortified?

3:23

I feel like I'm not doing crazy

3:25

shit. And now I'm like, well, God, I'm like,

3:27

growing up. It's

3:32

scary. It's scary. And it's

3:34

like, it just lives on. And

3:36

it just never goes away. And

3:38

like, the only thing, you know, I saw

3:40

some stupid inspirational

3:42

quote yesterday that actually was, you got to love

3:45

inspirational quotes, man. They're so corny,

3:47

but sometimes they really do what

3:50

they need to do. They hit. Sometimes they

3:52

hit. Right? And there was someone

3:54

yesterday that was like, before you

3:56

regret anything, remember that at one point

3:58

it was exactly

3:59

what you wanted.

3:59

And I was like, well, that's true. And

4:02

I have always said, especially about fashion,

4:05

I've always said since I was younger, and to this

4:07

day, that people,

4:09

because I used to wear a lot of crazy stuff, and I

4:11

still do, but especially when I was kinda

4:14

coming up, I was just, all I wanted was eyes

4:16

on me, whether it was judgy eyes or

4:18

happy eyes, whatever it was. And

4:21

I just wanted people to look at me. And

4:23

I would always say, when

4:25

somebody questioned me, I'd be like, you know what? It

4:28

doesn't matter, because this is what I want to

4:30

do right now, and I'm always gonna remember

4:33

that. And so, in the future,

4:35

when I look back at whatever I was wearing

4:37

now, or now when I look back at what I was wearing

4:39

when I was 10, and I'm like, ew, cringe, at

4:42

least it was, I'll always

4:44

appreciate that it was exactly who I was

4:46

at that time, and it was exactly what I wanted to

4:48

be, was exactly what I wanted to wear. When

4:51

you're a teenager in

4:53

the public eye, and so

4:56

much of your career is based

4:58

around the fact that you're young, and

5:01

then you get older, and people

5:03

are used to you

5:05

being young, it's hard for you even

5:07

to be like, oh, I'm growing up, I'm not that

5:10

same person anymore, but nobody told

5:12

me that when you grow up, you stop

5:14

recognizing your younger self. I didn't know

5:16

that was a part of growing up, I really didn't.

5:20

It's funny, maybe you saw

5:22

on Instagram, but I recently found my old

5:24

scrapbook from when I was 10 years old,

5:26

it was full of photos, my own fashion

5:28

designs, and a souvenir from a school trip

5:31

to the BBC. So it's really

5:33

wild to think that all these years later, I'm

5:35

working with the BBC to bring you this podcast.

5:38

Now that all

5:39

three seasons are available, as well as our summer

5:41

series, I thought I'd take you behind the scenes

5:43

of some of my favorite

5:44

interviews, and tell you a little bit about

5:46

what it was like for me to.

5:52

We launched this podcast at the same time

5:54

as my editorial platform, Service95, both

5:57

in service of inspiring and uncovering

5:59

by curious. about culture,

6:01

travel and activism from

6:03

around the world. I really wanted to

6:05

make this podcast of service

6:06

to you all, and I've really loved having

6:08

a platform to directly speak to all of you. I

6:11

hope you've learnt lots along the way. I know

6:13

I certainly have. The podcast

6:15

has also inspired how I thought about the stories

6:18

we told in our Service95 newsletter. It's

6:21

changed my global perspective and really

6:23

encouraged me to look deeper. Patterns

6:26

emerge in my conversations, and there are some

6:28

themes in which my guests come back to time

6:30

and time again. Something that I really,

6:33

really related to was the stories I heard about

6:35

the way people understood their identities. I

6:38

guess as someone of dual heritage, it's something I

6:40

think about all the time. And so does

6:42

Oscar-winning actor, Rezaamid.

6:44

It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's a recurring

6:47

theme, I'm sure, for a lot of your guests. Because

6:49

I don't know if you feel this way, but people

6:51

who feel like outsiders, people

6:53

who feel like they are hybrid

6:55

in some way, that they're both insiders

6:58

and outsiders, I think they

7:00

are forced to be creative

7:03

in one way or another. And

7:07

sometimes that comes out as music, sometimes that

7:09

comes out as film, sometimes it comes out as visual

7:11

art. But the

7:14

reason you're creating is you're trying to kind of create

7:17

a coherent sense of identity for

7:19

yourself. And I actually feel

7:21

like

7:22

it's so ironic that a lot of the time immigrant

7:24

families are thought of as being, you know, the parents

7:26

are. And sometimes it's true. And when the

7:28

kids are going to stable professions and they're like,

7:32

don't go into the creative industries. No,

7:34

don't do something unreliable. But the great

7:36

irony is that a lot of us from

7:38

immigrant backgrounds, the

7:41

one thing we have when we come

7:43

to these new countries is culture. We

7:47

have our songs, we have our stories, we have

7:49

our music, we have our food, we have our fashion.

7:52

Culture is something you can take with

7:54

you even if you don't have the shirt on your back. And

7:58

so I feel like there's something in here. inherently

8:00

creative about people who come

8:02

here with nothing but their culture. It's

8:04

inevitable in a way that they will continue

8:07

making culture and continue

8:09

trying to construct and create their identities.

8:12

And yeah, for me, I mean, it was no different. I guess,

8:16

for you, you're kind

8:18

of code switching between different versions of yourself. You

8:21

speak in one language at home. At home,

8:24

something different in school. Yeah, it's different language

8:26

out at school. I don't know if it was for you, but I used

8:28

to basically have a full blown costume change.

8:30

Oh, really? Yeah, no, not for

8:32

you. I didn't have the costume change, but it was definitely, it was

8:34

like the accent, the stories, the jokes.

8:37

I'm

8:38

definitely funnier in Albanian. You

8:41

just say that. Yeah, it's just, you know,

8:43

and sometimes like when I'm around my family, I think in

8:45

Albanian, and then I go out and I'm like talking to

8:47

my friends in English and then everything's

8:50

in English. It's a

8:51

very weird thing,

8:54

you know, going from one thing to the other.

8:57

I kind of see it as a gift and a curse. When

9:00

I was growing up, I used to find it very confusing. And

9:02

then when I became an adult, I realized it was very enriching.

9:06

And now I'm, you know, my late

9:08

30s, getting to be an old man, I'm realizing actually,

9:10

yes, it gave me the ability to switch

9:13

in and out of different versions of myself. Gave

9:15

me a kind of a visa

9:18

to everywhere, but a passport to

9:20

kind of nowhere. Now what I'm trying to do is get

9:22

out of the code switching, thinking

9:24

more about who am I when no one's watching? Because

9:26

I don't know if you feel this way, which is part

9:29

of your brain, if you grow up switching between

9:31

different versions of yourself, part of your brain, whenever

9:34

you enter a room, is taking the temperature

9:36

of that room. And on some subconscious

9:38

level, you become X version

9:41

of yourself as opposed to Y version of

9:43

yourself or Z version of yourself. And

9:46

something that I'm trying to explore more and more

9:49

is who am I when

9:51

no one's watching?

9:52

Yeah.

9:53

And so yeah, I ebb and flow between seeing

9:55

it as this superpower and this gift and this confusion

9:58

and this curse. Yeah. Like

10:00

I said, I had a question change, man. So at home we'd wear,

10:03

you know, Shilvah al-Kamiz, be speaking in Urdu,

10:05

it's a traditional Muslim household. Then

10:08

I was bused to a private school

10:11

an hour and a half away from where I grew up that

10:13

was predominantly white, very middle class, we

10:15

wear school uniform. And just to

10:17

show you how deep it is, like, you

10:19

know, you have Gryffindor or Slytherin,

10:21

you have the different houses, right? This is a private school

10:24

that has different houses. And the house

10:26

that I was a member of, the house that I was representing

10:30

was named after the guy who

10:32

colonized India. So

10:34

I am there literally representing my

10:37

colonial masters in

10:39

this nice- Crazy. It's

10:41

just, you know, you couldn't make it up. And then, of

10:43

course, when they started to play rugby or do a lesson

10:46

on border, I'm bunking off school and

10:48

I'm going to hang out with my boys. And that's

10:50

a third different costume change. That's the

10:52

green and white Reebok classics, because that's the Pakistan

10:54

flag, the fake Versace, because I couldn't

10:56

afford the real thing. Wembley

10:59

Market, shout out. And hanging

11:02

out with my boys and speaking, a different kind of mix between,

11:04

you know, London slang, Jamaican slang, Urdu

11:07

swear words mainly. And so

11:09

there was this costume change, this character change,

11:12

this personality shift, this code switching.

11:14

And in a way, I realized now that's

11:17

how I started acting.

11:18

Another theme that I've loved exploring in these conversations

11:21

is an understanding of spirituality. I

11:24

absolutely adored my conversation with Paloma

11:26

Elsess of the season. She was just so

11:28

inspiring. I definitely recommend

11:30

listening to that if you haven't already. And

11:33

I also loved my chat with my dear friend Elton

11:35

John back in season one. I think he

11:37

gave such an insightful answer when he talked

11:39

to me about being in rehab and how

11:42

he filled what his counselor called the hole

11:44

in the doughnut, the space that was left by

11:46

drugs.

11:47

I was so raw and I was so naive.

11:50

And I was thinking, well, I'm going to learn Spanish. I'm

11:52

going to learn Italian. I've got to learn to cook, all

11:55

of which, of course, I never did. But

11:57

you're very raw. You're in rehab and you're

11:59

being. ask all these questions. And

12:03

I realized after I

12:05

came out that the whole night and the doughnut was because I had

12:07

no faith in anything. And

12:09

I did, if you become

12:12

a member of that colleagues anonymous, you have to

12:14

have faith in something doesn't have to be God

12:16

as we know, or most people think of him, you

12:19

just have to believe in something that's greater

12:21

than yourself. And

12:23

I never thought of that before. And it changed my

12:25

whole life. I mean, took me a long time to come

12:27

to grips with it, because I was so angry

12:29

about the word God and the word religion and

12:31

everything like that. But that ended

12:34

up being the hole in the doughnut, the hole in the doughnut, my

12:36

soul was void of anything

12:38

to believe in all I believed in was my career,

12:41

drugs, alcohol, sex,

12:44

and I didn't put any credence in

12:46

having a belief of anything. And then

12:49

I suddenly start to think and there've been

12:51

so many coincidences of my life, that

12:54

why did I leave the band? Why did

12:56

I go to the audition in Liberty Records, when

12:59

I was so not comfortable with myself

13:01

hated the way I looked shy, wouldn't

13:03

say boo to a goose, but I did. Why

13:06

did the envelope that was picked up be burned

13:08

as lyrics? Where did that come from? And it's

13:11

still to this day, little coincidences.

13:13

I was alone in the house here, the same house I'm

13:16

in now in 1993. And

13:18

I didn't know anybody. And I rang my friend up in London

13:21

say, Listen, it's the afternoon, it's two o'clock. If

13:24

you can't do it, don't worry, but I just love

13:26

to meet some people. I don't

13:28

know anybody, I said for the AA people.

13:31

And so I said, Can you invite some people

13:33

down for dinner? Well, it was a tall order. But in

13:36

the end, four people came down for dinner. And

13:38

one of them was David. I love this story.

13:40

Why did I make that phone call at two o'clock?

13:42

I mean, I'm not very, I just

13:45

thought I've got to find someone I've got to meet somebody.

13:47

So I find my friend

13:49

at two o'clock. And then that changed

13:51

my life. I mean, if I had them at David,

13:53

my life would have been I had them at Bernie, if

13:56

there's so many things like that that have happened to me. And I

13:58

now realize that these signs

14:00

given to me by something or

14:02

someone or whatever. And

14:04

so I totally believe now that

14:07

there's been so many times in my life that I've been saved

14:10

by these kind of things or they

14:11

pushed me forward that I do now believe

14:14

and that is to me was the hole in the

14:16

donor. Not having a belief, it's

14:18

a belief in goodness and kindness but it's belief

14:20

that something somewhere is guiding

14:23

you and I now have that belief. So

14:25

in treatment I hadn't got a clue what hole

14:27

in the donor was but now I do. That's

14:30

so beautiful. I think also

14:32

to be able to live life and be like think

14:34

of it in the way where you say oh whatever

14:36

is meant for me will be. It also

14:39

takes off the pressure of trying to force

14:41

fate in some way

14:41

or in a direction that you want it to go. I

14:44

think it's so important to also let

14:46

life guide you in certain areas

14:48

of your life. You'll never know what happens. It always surprises

14:50

you and it's beautiful. Everything's meant

14:52

to happen. Now wonderful

14:55

David

14:55

is

14:56

in your life and so much has changed

14:59

since then and I

14:59

think that is so amazing the power of love

15:02

also. When you least expect it

15:04

can change so much. You've got

15:06

to make that first step. You've got to if

15:08

you're prompted go for it and a lot of people

15:10

don't but luckily I've always made that

15:13

step.

15:16

Across all three seasons

15:18

I've had the pleasure of meeting lots of new people

15:20

for these podcasts and I really do feel like

15:22

I've made some new friends. I will

15:25

say though there's something really special

15:27

about speaking to some of my old friends about their work

15:29

like Troye Sivan or Charlie XCX. I

15:32

mean you're a great singer. I

15:34

would say one of the defining things about your

15:36

artistry is your voice. I would

15:38

say one of the defining things about my artistry is

15:40

my voice too but I'm actually not a good singer.

15:44

I'm pitchy and I

15:45

sing a lot with auto tune. That's just part

15:48

of the style that I've developed. When

15:50

I was sharing my process I

15:53

was not singing with auto

15:55

tune on Instagram live or whatever and

15:58

I was just

15:58

like oh my god.

15:59

You know like when you see people like on

16:02

I don't know like X Factor or whatever and they like come into

16:04

the audition

16:04

and they're like I'm amazing. I'm

16:06

iconic and then they sing and it's like oh my god, like

16:09

what are you doing? That

16:11

was I was like feeling myself I was

16:13

like, you know singing melodies and I'm like

16:19

And

16:22

I'm like, oh my god, I sound crazy like

16:24

they are gonna think that I am Like

16:26

an insane woman like they just think I

16:28

think I sound amazing. I'm like, I know I don't sound good

16:31

I just know what to change gonna get there. So

16:33

that part was scary

16:33

by having to really like reveal

16:36

the reality That was

16:38

scary But

16:39

when it was intentional the

16:41

sharing

16:42

of the music it felt really positive when

16:44

it's out of your control It makes you have a

16:46

breakdown. That's yeah basically it

16:49

But as well as these really fun conversations

16:52

I also wanted the show to be a space for

16:54

underrepresented voices and activists

16:56

that are working tirelessly both in and

16:58

out of the shadows And if you've been a fan

17:01

of the show from the start, you'll know it's something

17:03

that's important to me and service 95 One

17:06

conversation I found very moving was

17:08

when I spoke to Monica Lewinsky Monica

17:11

was embroiled in a scandal with President Bill

17:13

Clinton back in the 1990s And

17:15

I found it so interesting talking to her

17:18

about the way that people reacted to her at the time

17:20

Especially women and the way things

17:23

have changed today what happened

17:25

with my relationship with feminism

17:28

in a way was reflective of

17:30

so many different streams

17:32

in my life and one of which was Healing

17:35

work I did in sort of stepping

17:38

back out really recognizing

17:40

that There were grudges

17:42

I was gonna have to let go of and while

17:44

that doesn't mean I

17:46

don't you know Still wish with

17:48

all my might that there had been some

17:50

support that would have changed my experience

17:54

As I got older and I started to understand

17:57

the duality of situations and the difficulty

17:59

There were things I started

18:02

to understand too that I started to see

18:04

as I was older, by no means excusing,

18:06

but the movement had done at the time and the silence

18:09

or the contributing even. I think

18:11

that was one of the worst... I mean to sort

18:13

of... That was the thing

18:15

that really struck me was the contribution

18:18

from women who were like Kathy

18:21

Rogers, who was in the National Organization

18:23

of Women and Eleanor Smiel from... She's

18:26

president of the Feminist Majority Foundation.

18:28

I think while I was reading

18:31

and understanding and also

18:33

learning more about your story, it was something that

18:35

really kind of struck me that you really

18:37

had no support at that time when girls

18:40

really need other women to help them out,

18:42

especially when they're going through such a difficult

18:45

time.

18:46

Absolutely. I think that

18:48

I certainly came to

18:51

understand and experience that

18:54

women aren't immune to misogyny

18:57

and its intersectionality

18:59

has become more of

19:02

a focus in feminism too, that

19:04

we also start to see the ways

19:07

women behave towards other women that

19:10

really support the patriarchy too,

19:12

that help keep that in place. So there's

19:14

an irony there of fighting to

19:17

try to change something while at the same

19:19

time reinforcing

19:21

the institution. And that's not

19:23

to say

19:24

all feminists or even all

19:26

the time, but I think that we can all become prey

19:29

to those sorts of things.

19:30

For me, if you are a somewhat

19:33

liberal woman today, it's impossible

19:36

to not find

19:37

yourself in some

19:39

tributary

19:40

of feminism because of

19:43

what's, at least in my country, what's

19:45

happening over here. And

19:48

I think in terms of how our rights

19:52

to make decisions about

19:54

our own body and our lives has

19:56

just been decimated and it's

19:59

incredible. in the worst definition

20:01

of the word. Yeah.

20:04

It's interesting, you know,

20:06

I think I got a little

20:11

lost in a way in answering all

20:13

of that because

20:13

my mind

20:15

hitched to the quote

20:17

that you were talking about from the essay.

20:19

And I think it's

20:21

really, you know, looking at feminism

20:23

and how things have changed in just

20:26

even a short period, I think, like

20:28

around the Me Too movement and

20:31

everything, that even that idea

20:34

of abuse of power, as you were saying, is something

20:36

that we weren't focused on. When I

20:38

wrote that essay in 2014, that was not something

20:41

that was top of mind when we looked

20:46

at those things. And within a few years, that

20:49

became something that forced so many

20:51

of us to, and

20:54

I don't know because you're young, so I don't know

20:56

if you yourself had

20:58

those experiences too, where you were recontextualizing,

21:01

reevaluating, you know, re-examining

21:05

what some of your experiences had

21:07

been because the definitions were

21:09

shifting. We were understanding complexities

21:12

and nuance to things that

21:13

we hadn't before.

21:15

And I guess that's right. This really happened in a

21:17

completely different era. And I was

21:20

just so in awe of her strength and

21:22

resilience in finding ways to

21:24

heal her trauma after everything that had

21:26

happened to her.

21:28

And I guess at the time,

21:29

you know, the internet was just booming. We had no

21:31

idea of what was to come or, I mean,

21:34

I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be patient

21:36

zero and to be at the hands

21:37

of the internet and to have everyone have

21:40

their thoughts and opinions without knowing

21:42

anything about

21:43

you, being told and retold

21:46

in ways that are just out of your hands. Yeah,

21:49

it's interesting to see how far we've come and

21:51

how much work there's still yet to do.

21:59

be right back.

22:06

I

22:30

feel grateful that I've been able to

22:32

speak to so many campaigners who are working

22:34

to improve things in marginalized groups.

22:46

In

22:53

season two, I was joined by lawyer

22:55

and civil rights leader, Brian Stevenson. He's

22:58

the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative

23:01

and has campaigned tirelessly to help

23:03

wrongly imprison people and those on death

23:05

row. In our conversation, he spoke

23:08

incredibly movingly about his experience

23:10

with a man named Avery. I

23:13

had not met

23:14

Avery Jenkins until I went to the prison and

23:16

I drove down there and it was just

23:19

one of those days where I had a very difficult

23:21

encounter when I got to the prison. So

23:24

I live in Alabama. It's a region where

23:26

you see a lot of iconography that

23:29

I regard as hostile. It celebrates

23:32

the era of slavery. It celebrates

23:34

these kind of narratives of white supremacy.

23:37

And when I parked my car, I noticed

23:39

that there was a truck that had all of these Confederate

23:41

flags and symbols that had all of these

23:44

statements that were really racist.

23:47

And one of the bumper stickers on the truck

23:49

was, quote, if I'd known it would be like

23:51

this, I'd have picked my own cotton,

23:54

which was this really hostile way of expressing

23:56

resentment against black people. But

23:59

I saw all of that.

23:59

the prison.

24:01

And when I got to the door, this guard came

24:03

out and he was just disbelieving

24:05

that I was a lawyer. I said, I'm here for a legal

24:07

visit. And the man said, you're not a lawyer. I said,

24:10

no, I am a lawyer. I've been here before. I said,

24:12

where's your bar card? I said, well,

24:14

I've never had to show my bar card. He said, I'm not letting

24:16

you in without your bar card. So I went back

24:18

to my car, got my bar card, but I was really insulted

24:21

by this. And I said, look, here's my bar card. I want to

24:23

see my client. And the guard

24:25

said, well, you've got a bar card, but I still

24:27

don't trust you. So you're going to have to go in the bathroom

24:30

and I'm going to give you a strip search before

24:32

I let you in. And a strip search is

24:35

really humiliating. It's just awful.

24:37

And I said, no, I'm a lawyer, but no

24:40

one would come and shield

24:42

me from that protocol. And I knew I needed to see

24:44

this man. So I subjected myself

24:46

to this humiliating search, came back out

24:49

and I said, look, I want to see my client. And this is

24:51

not usual protocol for lawyers. Not at all.

24:53

Lawyers are never subjected to that kind

24:55

of treatment. And he finally

24:58

got me to the door to go into the chamber.

25:00

And when I got there, he said, Hey,

25:02

let me ask you something. I said, what? He

25:04

said, did you see that truck out there with all those

25:07

bumper stickers and flags? I said, yeah, I

25:09

saw that truck. He said, I want you to know that that's my truck.

25:12

Really just difficult. And I

25:14

went inside and Avery Jenkins came out was

25:16

the first time I met him. And

25:18

he sat down. And the first thing he said was,

25:21

did you bring me a chocolate milkshake? And

25:23

I thought to myself, my God, this is the strangest

25:26

thing I've ever had. I said, no,

25:28

I didn't bring you a chocolate milkshake. I'm your lawyer. I'm here

25:30

to represent you. And he, he

25:32

couldn't pay attention after I said that. I said, look, I'm

25:35

sorry. The next time I come, if they let

25:37

me, I'll bring you a chocolate milkshake. And then I realized

25:39

he was severely mentally disabled.

25:42

He had been in 29 foster

25:44

homes by the time he was 11 years old, at

25:47

the age of 13. And again, showing symptoms of

25:49

bipolar disorder. 15, he became

25:51

schizophrenic at 17.

25:54

He was drug addicted and

25:56

beginning to have psychotic episodes in the middle

25:58

of a psychotic episode.

25:59

when he was 19, when he thought he

26:02

was being attacked by demons, when

26:04

people were walking down the street, he

26:06

reacted to a man who he thought was

26:09

a demon, was just a man walking down the

26:11

street. And he stabbed that man to death, which was

26:13

tragic. But the real other

26:16

problem was when I read his record, there was

26:18

no discussion about his mental health, his

26:20

history, his mental illness, his psychosis,

26:22

none of it was presented. And

26:24

he was tried very unfairly. So I began

26:27

working on trying to get mental health people

26:29

to help me explain

26:29

to the courts why this man was disabled,

26:33

and not a proper candidate for execution. And

26:35

we finally had a hearing several months

26:38

later. And when I got to court, I said to

26:40

Avery, I said, Look, I need you to just try to pay

26:42

attention. He would always ask me, did

26:44

you bring me a chocolate milkshake? I was never able

26:46

to do that. I said, No, but I

26:48

want you to pay attention. And I noticed

26:51

that that guard who had treated me so badly

26:53

was the officer that had brought him to the

26:55

courthouse. And he was just glaring at me.

26:58

And for three days, we put on our evidence, I felt

27:00

good about the hearing. Our experts were great. They

27:02

were educating the court about mental illness,

27:04

we had foster parents testify, and I

27:07

had a little hopeful. And about

27:09

a month later, I went back to the prison

27:11

to see

27:12

Avery.

27:13

And I saw the truck in the parking

27:16

lot when I parked my car and expected

27:18

that same kind of humiliating

27:20

treatment, and had to kind of really persuade

27:22

myself not to just turn around and come back another

27:25

day. I said, No, you got to go. And I went

27:27

up the steps and there was that officer. And

27:30

I went up to him and said, Hi, I'm

27:32

Brian Stevenson, I'm here for legal visit. Here's my bar

27:34

card. And the man immediately said, Oh, you don't

27:37

need that. I said, okay,

27:40

well, I'll go in the bathroom and get ready for your search.

27:42

He said, Oh, we're not going to do that, Mr. Stevenson, you

27:44

don't have to worry about that. I said,

27:46

thank you. And he started walking me over to the door. And I

27:48

didn't trust it. I thought he was setting me

27:51

up because the last time it was so bad. There

27:53

was a ton of events. Yeah. And I was I

27:55

was watching him really carefully, because I didn't know what was going

27:58

on. And we got over to the door.

27:59

and he tried to unlock

28:02

the door and I could see that his hands were shaking

28:04

so badly. He couldn't get the key in the

28:06

door.

28:07

And then finally he unlocked the door and he turned

28:09

around, his face was red. He

28:11

said, Mr. Stevenson, can I please tell

28:13

you something? I

28:15

said, sure. He said, I want you to know I was

28:17

in that courtroom during that hearing for

28:19

Avery Jenkins and

28:21

I was listening. And

28:24

he said, I want you to know I think

28:26

what you're doing is a good thing.

28:29

He said, I grew up in the foster care system

28:31

too. He said, I had it really, really

28:33

bad. He said, I didn't think anybody had it worse

28:36

than I did, but I realized that your client

28:38

had it worse than I did. He said, listening in

28:40

that hearing, I realized I'm a really angry

28:43

person. He

28:44

said, but I also realized that what

28:47

you're doing is a good thing. And

28:49

then he said, I hope you keep fighting for

28:52

justice. And he put his hand out

28:54

and said, can I please shake your hand? And I would have never,

28:57

ever expected anything like

28:59

that was possible. Especially with the way it all

29:01

started out.

29:08

I guess something else that I really wanted to

29:11

champion

29:11

is the importance of books.

29:13

And I never would have guessed

29:16

that some of my

29:17

favorite conversations would have been

29:19

speaking to authors that I love about their work.

29:21

There's Lisa today,

29:23

who wrote The Incredible Animal and Three

29:25

Women, as well as Hanyana Ghajara,

29:28

author of A Little Life, which if

29:30

you know me, you know, I'm obsessed with. I

29:33

think it was my conversation with Min Jin Lee that

29:35

really sums up why access

29:37

to books is just so, so

29:39

important.

29:40

Writers have always been dangerous people. Books

29:44

are dangerous because they change people.

29:46

And I think sometimes instead of feeling persecuted,

29:49

I feel very powerful. I know I

29:51

have the capacity to change a person's mind. I've

29:53

seen it. Well, people

29:55

who don't want you to do that are going

29:57

to try to shut you down.

29:59

And this

29:59

culture war right now has existed

30:02

at every single generation. What's

30:04

interesting about social media is it allowed

30:07

people to be exposed for attempting to

30:09

do so.

30:10

So as much as people decry

30:12

social media, social media

30:14

can also be used as a very strong

30:16

force

30:17

to expose it. So part

30:20

of the jobs that you and I are doing right now is

30:22

to say, no, we disagree.

30:26

We disagree.

30:27

We protest and we will speak.

30:29

So on my limited platform, I

30:32

will write and we will write and

30:34

you will not stop me. You will not shut

30:36

me up about saying the

30:37

things that I really care about.

30:39

I guess for as long as I can remember, I've

30:42

been taught that words are incredibly

30:44

powerful, whether it's the way that you

30:46

use them in the playground when you're a kid

30:49

with your friends or with your teachers

30:51

to how you use words

30:54

with yourself, whether you're being nice

30:56

or not so nice about yourself, how

30:58

that has a massive impact on you to the words

31:00

that we read in books and how

31:02

that can completely shift perspectives and

31:04

make a real difference around the world. I

31:07

was really struck by the importance

31:09

of words and books and reading,

31:12

especially when I went to down view women's

31:14

prison for a reading club where I

31:16

went to go speak about Shuggie Bain, a

31:18

book written by the author Douglas Stewart.

31:21

And it was really fascinating because

31:23

the conversations that I was having with the women there,

31:25

a lot of them

31:26

were kind of revolving around the language

31:29

and the words used in the book.

31:30

And one woman in particular

31:33

said that, you know, up until the point she went

31:35

into prison, she hadn't picked up a book

31:37

and she really wished she had sooner because

31:40

reading had really helped to understand

31:43

the human condition and the human experience

31:46

and why people react to things in a certain

31:48

way. And I think that

31:50

was a really true example of

31:53

why words and reading and books

31:55

and the way you use words is

31:57

so incredibly important.

31:59

these conversations with authors that inspired

32:02

me to kick off our Service 95 book club

32:04

in the first place, which I hope

32:06

you've had a chance to explore. I

32:08

can't tell you what a thrill it's been to work with

32:11

some of my favourite authors to bring you exclusive

32:13

content on some

32:14

of, in my humble opinion, the

32:16

world's best books.

32:18

I've been amazed at how generous these

32:20

writers have been, whether it's Patti Smith

32:22

sharing her playlist of the songs that helped

32:25

to shape her work for my September read, Just

32:27

Kids, or the insights from

32:29

to Amanda Ngozi Adichie on how

32:31

she mixes family history with

32:33

historical fact to communicate the realities

32:36

of post-colonial Nigeria and Biafram

32:38

War when we read Half the Yellow Sun

32:41

in August.

32:42

We kicked off both book club

32:44

and this latest podcast season live at

32:46

the Hay Literary Festival in Wales back

32:48

in June. I recorded most

32:50

of season one and two whilst on the road for my future

32:52

nostalgia tour, recording episodes

32:55

from random hotel rooms. So

32:57

it was really nice to record one episode

32:59

in front of a live audience at Hay where I was

33:02

joined on stage by Douglas Stewart, the

33:04

wonderful author of Shaggy Bay.

33:06

I grew up in Glasgow, as you said, and I grew

33:08

up on a couple of different house and estates

33:11

and I was so proud

33:13

to be working class as a kid, but I was taught

33:15

from the very early age to be ashamed

33:17

of being poor and of the addiction that was

33:20

at home with my family, also because

33:22

I was gay in a very patriarchal

33:24

place. And so there was just so much silence

33:27

in my life. There was not a time

33:29

between the ages of four and

33:31

maybe 26 where I felt like I

33:34

could reveal my whole entire self. And

33:37

so there was just so much silence there, even in the community

33:39

that knew me best of all. But by the time

33:41

I go to college and I study textiles, which

33:43

becomes fashion, which takes me to New

33:46

York, I found my entire self erased.

33:49

Everybody that ever met me thought I just had this really glamorous

33:51

life and that maybe I came from a background

33:53

of privilege or that

33:56

I was in the place that I was supposed to be in. It had always been

33:58

such a fight for me to be there. And

34:00

so it was actually at the height of my fashion career

34:03

that I sat down to write Shuggie Bain But

34:05

I think I wrote it as a manifesto for myself

34:08

Just to to be very clear even to

34:10

my husband even to very good friends of mine Who

34:13

had never had any other way

34:15

to tell them that I'd grown up and I'd lost my mother

34:17

to addiction when I was a kid Or what it was like

34:19

to be bullied or what it was like not to have food in the

34:21

house and all these other things And and

34:24

I wanted to capture it as a way to

34:26

make sense of myself because I felt like a man Into

34:29

very broken parts and not a

34:31

whole person and and at the same time my family in

34:33

Glasgow Couldn't really understand my life in New

34:36

York because it was so far away from their

34:38

daily life And so I felt like

34:40

I was forever crossing borders And

34:43

and I didn't want to feel like I was hiding

34:45

parts of myself anymore.

34:47

That was such a special experience We

34:49

had a really fun day. I mean

34:51

one of the most Incredible things about listening

34:54

back to all of these episodes

34:56

is hearing people talk about their work which

34:58

now Exists in the real world

35:01

During Elton's episode he talked about beginning

35:03

his tour which has already wrapped now

35:06

Back to when we were recording season 2 I was

35:09

working with Greta Gerwig and the team on dance

35:11

the night I've loved your

35:13

reaction to the song and I'm so grateful

35:15

to be a part of it It's been amazing

35:17

to see Barbie come to life as well as so

35:20

many of my other guests wonderful

35:22

creative projects like Dan Levy's

35:24

appearances

35:25

and sex education or Pedro

35:27

Elmodovar's film strange way of life, which

35:30

we accidentally got to exclusively announce

35:32

and I've really enjoyed

35:35

trying lots of new things outside of just interviewing

35:37

my guests like when I recorded

35:39

my summer series Which you can catch on YouTube

35:43

That was really fun We got to just really

35:45

experiment with something new from doing

35:48

meditation and me doing a yoga video and

35:51

I finished with a Rose

35:54

chicken dinner in my old flat on

35:56

what was actually a really hot day

37:45

are

38:00

struggling for a new podcast

38:02

or something to listen to so I think that's definitely

38:04

one that I would recommend. And

38:07

to round it off I'm gonna say

38:09

any film by

38:12

Pedro Modavar is a big big

38:14

big big yes from me but

38:16

some of my favorites are Life

38:19

Lesh, Women on the Verge of

38:21

a Nervous Breakdown, Avlac on

38:23

Aya, Kika,

38:24

I mean there's just so many, I think I've watched

38:27

all of them but those are just some off the top of my head

38:29

that I absolutely love so

38:31

yes. That's

38:35

all for this episode

38:38

of Do A Leaper at Your Service, I

38:40

really hope you'll make the time to go back and

38:42

listen to our amazing previous episodes.

38:45

I want to say a big big thank you to the whole Service 95

38:47

team, I want to say thank you to

38:49

Dino, Ellie, James and everybody

38:52

who makes these episodes possible and

38:54

thank you to all of you for listening and

38:57

I hope I'll see you very very soon.

39:07

Hey let me ask you something, have

39:09

you heard George's podcast? Me

39:12

and Ben brick are back with a blast, this time

39:14

with stories from Africa's past, not

39:17

too distant unsolved mysteries, unsung

39:19

heroes from untold histories. I'm

39:22

trying to make sense of the present day, join

39:25

me on this journey by pressing

39:27

play. Have you

39:30

heard George's podcast chapter

39:32

four? Listen on BBC sounds.