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I'm Morgan Freeman and this is Six Degrees

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1:12

Hi, and welcome back to Dua Lipa At Your

1:14

Service. Today's guest,

1:17

Paloma El Cesar, is one of her generation's

1:19

most in-demand models, tastemakers

1:21

and trailblazers.

1:23

This year alone, she's appeared on the covers of

1:25

both British Vogue and Vogue Germany. On

1:28

the red carpet at the Met Gala and strutting

1:30

alongside stars like Ziwe, Arca

1:33

and Dominique Jackson at Mugler's Fall 2023

1:35

show in Paris. I've

1:38

been lucky enough to run into Paloma a few times

1:40

over the years and have long admired her outspokenness,

1:42

warmth and power.

1:44

When I reached out to her to ask her to join me

1:46

on this season of At Your Service, it came as

1:48

no surprise that the topic she chose for us to speak

1:50

about was equal parts unexpected

1:53

and thoughtful. For Paloma and I, spirituality

1:56

and the healing power of love is a powerful

1:57

combination. power

2:00

of art play incredibly pivotal roles.

2:03

For me spirituality takes many forms. Cooking,

2:06

yoga, and meditation are just a few

2:08

of the ways I take time to rest and research.

2:11

These practices and more have become hugely

2:13

important parts of my daily routine. They

2:15

keep me feeling safe and grounded. They're

2:18

like deposits in the bank for when life gets hectic.

2:23

When Paloma mentioned wanting to talk about spirituality

2:26

and arts healing powers, I knew I was walking

2:28

into a powerful conversation filled with connection

2:31

and commonalities. The ground

2:33

we covered proved me right and then some.

2:36

I really think you'll all take so much away from

2:38

this episode. So without further ado,

2:40

please welcome today's very special at-your-service

2:43

guest, Paloma Elsesser. Hey

2:46

Paloma, how are

2:48

you doing?

2:55

I'm well

2:57

sweetheart, how are you? I'm good, I'm

2:59

good, where are you right now? I'm in

3:02

New York, I just got back last night.

3:04

It feels good, I feel good, I feel happy to

3:07

be in my space. I haven't been home for a minute. It

3:11

makes a difference. I mean I can imagine your

3:13

life is non-stop and

3:15

I know that today we're here to talk about

3:18

spirituality and the healing power

3:20

of art, which I'm really excited about.

3:22

But I just wanted first to ask

3:25

you a little bit about your life because

3:27

obviously you're a very successful model,

3:30

but you're also a highly sought

3:32

after speaker and panelist

3:34

and advocate for social justice. Could

3:37

you paint a picture of what

3:40

a normal week is like for you? A

3:43

normal week for me is actually quite chaotic,

3:45

but it's far

3:47

more normal than I think it's let on

3:49

as a visible person. So it

3:52

does require a lot of airplanes, it does

3:55

require a lot of organization

3:57

and team and all this stuff, but

3:59

all

3:59

Also, surrounded by a lot

4:02

of friends that have been friends since I was a kid, a

4:04

lot of like eating Shake Shack with my boyfriend.

4:09

You know, when it oscillates, I think I

4:12

require for my own maintenance,

4:14

a level of like care and attention

4:17

and privacy and

4:19

intention to like show up

4:22

for the plane rides and show up for the job

4:24

and show up for all this stuff. I'm

4:26

sure you can identify.

4:27

I think like being in a position

4:29

where you like want to be of service all the time

4:31

and you want to do all these things,

4:34

that default to normalcy,

4:36

which is not even just like, oh, like, let me be normal. It's

4:38

like, that's literally how I live my life. Like seeing

4:41

a bad movie, like doing these things. So

4:45

my week, I wouldn't say it's balanced,

4:47

but it has much less glamor

4:49

than I think people probably

4:51

think. Well,

4:55

let's

4:55

talk a little bit about maintenance

4:58

because I want to get into your like your

5:00

personal journey when it comes to

5:02

spirituality. And

5:05

I

5:06

guess firstly,

5:07

how do you define spirituality?

5:11

Well, I have to give context from a familial lens. I

5:13

grew up in an intensely spiritual

5:16

family and household. You

5:18

know, my grandfather on my mother's side was like

5:20

a conscientious objector and Quaker,

5:23

like pacifist. And

5:25

then they also

5:26

practiced kind of Methodist Christian,

5:29

but non-judgmental or like non-denominational

5:30

in the same way. My

5:33

mom is Buddhist. So

5:35

grew up in a Methodist household,

5:37

but was given freedom to explore her

5:39

own versions of spirituality.

5:40

So I grew up with

5:42

her practicing Buddhism. And then

5:45

my father grew up

5:47

practicing like Rastafarianism and then kind

5:49

of went more into a practice called IFA, which

5:51

is mostly known to most people as

5:54

Centoria.

5:54

And then

5:57

compounded with a level of like, I

5:59

don't know.

5:59

know, like, intellectualism, I wouldn't want to, that

6:02

sounds pretentious, but just an encouragement

6:03

to like, investigate literature,

6:06

art, films, all these things. So

6:09

it created a foundation for

6:11

me to

6:13

always

6:14

be in relationship with it, whether or

6:17

not I wanted to or not.

6:18

When I was younger, I think

6:21

I sought refuge

6:23

in my own spirituality as a form of like,

6:25

atheism and just questions,

6:28

like wanting answers to the questions.

6:29

And when I was, I mean, it felt like

6:32

it was kind of like punk of me or something.

6:35

But you know, we all go there. And

6:38

my interpretation of God and

6:40

spirituality now is

6:43

so different, but also very much the

6:45

same is that I've always felt a connection

6:48

and a need for something like outside

6:50

of myself.

6:52

So there's a, for me, a very different

6:54

line between spirituality and religion. I think

6:57

people conflate the two a lot. That's

6:59

not really my experience, but I am also

7:01

obsessed with religion. My dad was also

7:03

a fresh religion. Like I've read

7:05

the

7:06

Bible for just because I'm like, hello,

7:08

number one bestseller, I must read. But

7:11

I think it's so good to know and explore

7:14

different religions. Like, I

7:16

think it's really important.

7:17

Yeah, the idea of spirituality to

7:20

me, I think as I've gotten older,

7:22

I've gotten further and further away

7:24

from the maybe the mysticism

7:26

of the idea that maybe there's a guy in this guy

7:28

and he's like, you know, going to like lead

7:30

the way or whatever. Whereas it's more

7:32

about the connective tissue and how you react and connect

7:34

with people. And when things happen

7:37

for a certain reason, it's like, oh, this was meant to

7:39

be, or like, if something doesn't work out, it's like, okay,

7:42

that's the way that I kind of differentiate or

7:44

find spirituality and peace and

7:46

certain things. But I

7:49

also read, because I've done a lot

7:50

of research, I've been reading all your interviews

7:52

and all your bits.

7:55

And earlier this year, you told British

7:57

Vogue that you and

7:59

many in the modeling community are traveling

8:02

more in a month than most people

8:04

do in a year, which I think that's something I

8:06

can really relate to as a touring musician. But

8:09

at the same time, being present in

8:12

the moment is a key aspect

8:14

of so many spiritual practices. How

8:16

do you cultivate mindfulness in

8:18

your

8:19

incredibly busy, well-traveling

8:23

day-to-day life? Yeah, I mean,

8:26

it's an ongoing experience,

8:28

I think, to cultivate mindfulness. I was

8:30

actually reflecting with a close friend recently

8:33

about kind of where

8:35

I'm at in my career and what it means, like

8:37

I'm at where I've always wanted to be, to

8:40

have the freedom, to help a friend, to help

8:42

family, to feel respected,

8:44

to feel understood, to feel all of those things.

8:47

And with that, it's also that I've

8:49

spent almost a decade just

8:52

having to show up. Like, I love my job

8:54

profoundly in many ways, but

8:57

there has been kind of this demand and

8:59

ease where it's like, I can build my

9:02

self-esteem or my work ethic

9:04

around the demand is that I just

9:06

show up. Like, okay, I'm there,

9:08

it doesn't matter

9:09

if I'm sick, I'm tired, and whatever. And

9:11

there's something quite powerful in that. There's something that,

9:14

okay, all it's I'm demanded of, obviously

9:16

I have to do the job or do the

9:18

thing or do the glam or do the,

9:20

but all that's demanded is presence.

9:23

But I think what I really rely

9:26

on is gratitude and

9:29

also not being in so much interrogation

9:31

of my first thought. Like, my first thought

9:34

might be not grounded

9:36

or not be grateful or might not be

9:39

thoughtful or nice. Or my first thought,

9:41

like my default brain

9:42

setting still, even

9:44

though I've been on a journey

9:47

of all this stuff for so long, it's like, nobody

9:49

likes you, it's gonna be bad. Like, that's my first

9:51

thought. And that's also okay.

9:54

It's about being in accordance

9:57

and in

9:59

presence.

9:59

with the second thought. Okay,

10:02

there I go doing that thing again. What

10:04

did I do this morning that shifted how

10:07

my first thought was? Like that's what's really important

10:10

to me. So just having a little

10:12

bit of interruption to the

10:14

first thought

10:15

is how I exercise

10:18

presence and like

10:19

navigating kind of the

10:21

craze of all of this. It's like- To kind

10:23

of figure out your rhythm. You said it so like

10:26

eloquently actually while I was hearing you talk I was like

10:28

that. That's exactly what I

10:30

think because it's

10:32

the first thought, it's the impulsive thought. It's

10:34

the one that you go and you say all the things

10:37

that you don't wanna say. If you remove yourself from any situation

10:39

and you try and like think,

10:41

so you can kind of talk yourself

10:43

off the edge. For

10:46

me, I've had to

10:47

put in like yoga and meditation

10:50

into my practice where I'm like, okay, I've done one thing

10:52

that makes me feel really good about myself today.

10:55

So that will like help me change my perspective

10:58

on anything else that's going on around

11:01

me.

11:01

I also like

11:03

early on made like a really conscious decision if

11:05

I'm gonna get on a plane, I'm not gonna get on the

11:07

wifi, I'm not gonna answer the emails, I'm

11:09

not gonna respond to the texts, I'm gonna

11:11

read a book or watch a film or

11:13

whatever, or sleep. Sleep. I

11:15

mean, fuck, sleep is so important.

11:17

Like not getting enough of that. And

11:20

so I think those little rituals

11:23

and practices are super important. Have you got

11:25

any like specific rituals

11:27

and practices that you put

11:29

into your routine that maybe my listeners

11:32

can implement that into their own

11:33

life? We for sure. What

11:35

I really try to do, and I don't do it perfectly

11:37

every time, but again, like I need

11:40

some buffer between me

11:42

and the world, which to me oftentimes

11:45

my world is in my phone. So

11:47

I need to drink

11:50

water before I look at my phone. I

11:52

need to ideally meditate

11:55

or pray. I think also

11:58

praying, I think people find it like.

11:59

from a religious lens, I

12:02

just need

12:03

to acknowledge something outside

12:06

of myself. And it's like,

12:08

let's say I wake up with the thoughts and there's work

12:10

anxiety or relationship anxiety or

12:12

body or whatever it is.

12:14

And it's less like, please make sure

12:16

I get this job. Please, God, or

12:19

whoever you insert. Also,

12:21

my God, my version of higher

12:23

power literally looks like

12:25

my favorite author, Toni Morrison, sitting

12:27

on a porch

12:28

with a stern love and sees me

12:30

perfectly. Sometimes it's my friends. But

12:33

whatever it is, I speak to that energy.

12:36

And I'm like, please relieve me

12:38

of the obsession of self today.

12:40

Because that's what it is. It's like when

12:43

I'm like,

12:43

oh, I need to start the

12:45

diet or get this job or do this

12:47

thing or get this car or get this outfit or

12:50

whatever it is. It's not praying

12:52

to get those things. It's actually for praying

12:55

for

12:55

relief from the obsession to need

12:57

those things. I've been dealing

12:59

with a lot of grief around a friend.

13:00

And I was like,

13:03

God, please allow me to experience

13:05

this person throughout my day. Because

13:08

it's having to come into the reality I'm not going to see

13:10

this person in the physical. So it's

13:13

not like,

13:13

please relieve me of my sadness and

13:15

let me get over this. It's like, no, let

13:17

me see this person in all walks of my day.

13:19

That's beautiful. I love that. And then,

13:21

yeah,

13:22

rest, like not berating

13:25

myself for needing rest and needing

13:27

sleep. Also, I'm kind

13:29

of basic in this. But every time I feel

13:31

kind of not good, I also shower. I

13:33

shower like three times a day. It's

13:35

a necessity for me. And it's

13:37

like a restart. It's completely

13:39

cathartic and useful for me. So

13:42

meditation, prayer, showering,

13:45

water. I love those.

13:49

You've spoken really beautifully

13:51

about sobriety in recent years.

13:54

And I won't be the first person to

13:56

say this. But I often see a really powerful

13:59

link between.

13:59

people who are sober and extremely

14:02

spiritual. And it's actually something I

14:04

explored a little bit in the first season of

14:06

the show with my guest Russell

14:08

Brand. Can you tell me a little

14:11

bit about your sobriety journey and the

14:13

ways that you found it

14:15

linked to your spiritual practices? Definitely.

14:19

I'm open about it because we live in a time

14:21

that

14:22

so many more people can have access

14:25

to a

14:26

second chance at life, as they say, you know,

14:28

or whatever. To a new experience.

14:31

And it used to not be that way. And

14:35

this is kind of what's afforded. I

14:38

stopped drinking and like using drugs when I was 19.

14:41

I saw people in my immediate

14:44

life that were doing this, but I think

14:47

the access to the conversation and really what it

14:49

meant felt really far. Maybe

14:51

that was just because it was like the genesis of Instagram

14:53

where all these things were happening. But

14:55

I fundamentally, since I was a

14:58

very young child,

14:59

I was also a really

15:02

intensely curious child. So I had

15:04

questions that felt unfulfilled. And

15:06

so I felt afraid, you know, it was always

15:08

why, why? But why, but like

15:10

you told me to eat this, but why? But why, like we're reading

15:13

this, but why? I got in trouble all of

15:15

my elementary school for being like, I

15:17

don't want to sing the Pledge of Allegiance. Why

15:20

do we

15:20

have to sing this? Like, I, like,

15:23

like, very that. But

15:27

in general, like on a deep and emotional level,

15:29

I felt

15:30

like I couldn't

15:32

understand my why, you know?

15:34

And it was like a perfect kind

15:37

of combination where things

15:41

that could supply me with that relief, i.e.

15:43

drinking or drugs or whatever

15:45

it was, kind of came in swiftly and

15:47

overtook that whole journey. It

15:50

quieted. It silenced the

15:52

why. And, you

15:54

know, it worked for a short amount of

15:56

time

15:57

and a painful amount of time.

15:59

And I say this,

16:02

the link to spirituality

16:02

is so profound in

16:05

kind of putting on drugs and alcohol and getting

16:07

into your own why,

16:08

is

16:12

that you have to relinquish control of how

16:14

all of it works. I felt like I was

16:17

constantly, even as a kid, even with

16:19

parents that loved me in many ways, I felt

16:21

so certainly unsafe

16:24

and unclear because I felt that

16:26

I was the director. You know what I mean? I

16:28

felt in control of it all. So

16:31

it's really important for me and

16:34

in a lot of circles of

16:37

sobriety

16:37

to not have a religious experience,

16:39

but a spiritual one, because

16:42

we also live in an intensely individualistic

16:45

culture and space where it's like,

16:48

you are in control of your own destiny,

16:50

you, you, you. But how do we

16:53

manifest that? How do we materialize all of that?

16:55

It feels impossible. And I think that

16:58

link of identifying, okay,

17:01

I can show up

17:02

this much, like keep myself out of the street

17:04

clean, like be kind, be of service, be

17:07

a human being that I can be proud of, be imperfect,

17:09

be imperfect.

17:11

And the rest is taken care

17:13

of.

17:14

That link fundamentally comes down

17:16

to when we surrender the control,

17:19

we are given freedom.

17:21

And I think

17:23

that

17:24

it's been so useful. It's taught

17:27

me so much in the 11 years that

17:29

I've

17:30

not been drinking or using drugs. It's

17:32

reparented me in many ways. It's shown

17:34

me like how to be a person, how

17:37

to show up for other people, how

17:39

to not always require

17:41

the answer. That's been such

17:44

a huge, huge, huge

17:46

realization that at times

17:49

I have to be okay with not

17:51

knowing.

17:52

I don't know, do you,

17:53

what is your kind of spiritual zone? Yeah,

17:57

my spiritual zone, I think it's something

17:59

that's.

17:59

that's happened over time. When

18:02

I was growing up in Kosovo, everybody

18:05

there mainly is Muslim, but

18:07

nobody practices. So I think

18:09

it was more like a culturally ingrained religion

18:12

where you would follow some of the, you

18:14

would do Eid or it would be more of

18:17

a gathering and

18:17

a family community

18:20

setting, everybody getting together. And

18:22

in those ways, I felt like I really

18:24

related to religion in that way.

18:27

And then as time passed

18:29

by, I kind of, like I said, I started to separate

18:31

a little bit from the idea of

18:33

there being just one

18:36

God or something. And it was more

18:38

about the way that I

18:40

connected with people. And that's the part that I love the

18:42

most about

18:43

spirituality. And then

18:45

at

18:46

the same time, I think I need to make

18:48

a really

18:49

active, active effort to

18:52

find the time to do that. Because I

18:54

think sometimes it's easy to be spiritual

18:56

when you're in nature and there's nothing around you. And

18:59

you're like, oh, I'm so connected to the universe

19:01

at this point in time. And I feel like I'm

19:04

really grounded. And then it's also

19:06

kind of finding spirituality

19:09

and groundedness even in the madness, even

19:11

when you're around people and in

19:13

like really mundane

19:15

situations, where it's

19:17

not breathtaking and I'm just on my

19:19

sofa and it's an active

19:22

exercise and practice that I have

19:24

to do. It's

19:27

like fundamental use for me

19:30

is bringing it in in the chaos

19:33

when it becomes extremely hard to

19:35

pick it up, when it feels like

19:37

I'm in so much self-will, when I'm

19:39

in trying to be in so

19:41

much control. And then I'm like, hmm, I

19:43

wonder why I'm miserable right now. And

19:45

you're like, that's crazy.

19:48

Like what? You know, it is an

19:50

active work. Something

19:55

I didn't say before, but

19:58

I also try and use like graphic. attitude

20:00

lists, which I know for some people feels

20:04

a little bit like corny, but it's like, I

20:06

need

20:07

to do it because my

20:10

default setting is being a hater and

20:12

being judgmental and being, I need to do opposite

20:15

action to the things. I need to be

20:17

corny. I need to be open in these ways.

20:19

I need to be soft, pick up the

20:21

feather instead of the bat. And

20:24

gratitude, in especially

20:26

the darkest times for me, has

20:30

been

20:30

so, so

20:31

intensely helpful and has

20:33

really changed

20:34

my perspective.

20:38

It can be as long or as short as you want

20:40

it to be. When I was younger, I used to keep a diary.

20:42

And I used to write all the time. And

20:46

later down the line, I just kind of fell out with it. And

20:48

I decided recently, I was like, oh, I'm going to write again.

20:51

And then I'd sit down and be like, I don't want to write a whole

20:53

thing about my day and this is annoying. And

20:56

I was in the studio and a friend of mine was like, oh,

20:58

have you ever seen George Harrison's journals? And

21:01

he would write these journals. But it would

21:03

be the most simple. Today,

21:05

I went to the shop. I went

21:07

to the studio. I did this. It was just

21:09

like a little log. Some days it can be something

21:11

more extensive. Sometimes it can be something really short.

21:14

I think just the act of putting something

21:16

down onto paper is such a relief.

21:19

And

21:21

at least for me, I feel like I write things

21:23

down. And I feel like I have to

21:25

be super descriptive in the moment. It's

21:27

actually sometimes so easy, just let it out, whatever

21:30

it is, for words, if it

21:32

has to be. Yeah.

21:34

It's such an incredible exercise to

21:36

exactly what you're saying. It can be anything. Because

21:39

I think we're

21:40

conditioned, especially

21:43

in

21:44

our jobs and in our fields and stuff

21:46

like that. We give so much of ourselves

21:48

to so many people. And

21:50

so it kind of feels like, OK,

21:53

what's for me? And I too, I relate

21:55

so deeply to that. Before,

21:58

I was really even like. modeling,

22:00

my path was to be a writer.

22:02

I wanted to be a journalist. I went to school for

22:05

psychology and literature. I wrote

22:07

my entire high

22:08

school life, published, and

22:10

da, da, da. And I still do it, but actually

22:12

in the last four years, I've really struggled

22:15

with it. I've really struggled

22:17

with it. I don't struggle with it as much when it's

22:20

meant to be other

22:22

people to see it. But

22:24

then when it comes to writing for myself

22:27

or a journal, it

22:29

feels almost painful because I sometimes

22:32

struggle with putting

22:32

pen to paper without it being consumed

22:35

by someone else.

22:36

And that was never its use or its mechanism

22:39

as a tool of

22:41

relief when I was younger. It was

22:43

never designed to be that. And

22:46

then now, when it's like, everything

22:48

is for everyone

22:49

or everything. And then I'm like, oh,

22:51

well, maybe George

22:53

Harrison, my journal's going to get published.

22:57

You're going to Shakespeare this shit right

22:59

now. Exactly, which feels like

23:02

not fun. Actually,

23:04

my therapist, amongst

23:06

many other requests

23:09

for me over the last like

23:11

five months, she's just

23:13

like, every day you need to write something in your

23:15

journal.

23:15

And it might not be long at all. It might just

23:17

be, went to the shop, da, da, da, da,

23:20

da. Exactly. I need a map. And that's cool, too.

23:23

And that's enough. And that's enough.

23:26

One thing that I really love about

23:29

you is the way that you really wear your vulnerability

23:31

on your sleeve. I feel like you're just so

23:34

open about your journey and your truth. And

23:37

opening up can be really scary,

23:40

but also really healing. How

23:42

have you embraced your

23:45

vulnerability in your creative process?

23:48

And how has it helped you connect

23:50

with others on a deeper level? I

23:52

also value that in you. You have an

23:55

openness that I think is not. celebrated

24:01

the way that we think it should be. I

24:03

think when I first started modeling,

24:07

I tried to be kind of like the architect

24:09

model, like keep it quiet,

24:11

keep it cute, show up for the job. And I found

24:14

that I was really sad,

24:16

you know? And then I was like, well, I'm putting like college,

24:18

I'm putting all this stuff on the line. So

24:21

I found that if I was going to do

24:23

this job and like wanted

24:26

fulfillment, I had to marry the two. There

24:28

had to be conversation, there had to be purpose.

24:31

I have like such a spectrum

24:33

of people, I'm sure you understand that like, I

24:36

feel so privileged to be in

24:38

relationship

24:41

with, around

24:43

the work that I do. And

24:46

for me, to do that,

24:48

it requires a certain level

24:50

of vulnerability

24:50

and honesty because

24:52

I feel connected to these people

24:55

who

24:56

know that of me, you know? And

24:58

I don't think there's always like, hey, why aren't you like trauma

25:01

dumping on the internet this week? I think it's more

25:03

just like, because there was

25:05

like an era of that where

25:06

that felt like, not like useful, but like

25:08

that's where I was at, where it felt important to

25:10

just like show all parts of me, but like as I've gone

25:13

a little bit older,

25:15

that is also the truth in my

25:18

vulnerability is that I can't

25:21

provide everything for everyone or be

25:23

like the hero, like the body positive

25:25

hero or be all these things. That's

25:27

the creative for me, that's the honesty

25:29

for me. I'm working

25:32

on a book, but it's pretty much outlining

25:35

two breast surgeries that I've had actually over

25:38

the course of

25:39

six years that I've had a very

25:41

close friend photograph. And I

25:43

was talking to someone

25:45

who kind of had like, kind of a

25:48

prescriptive idea of like, oh, like

25:49

what are your fans gonna think because

25:51

you're so about like self-love

25:53

and about, I was like, what makes

25:55

this not self-love? What makes

25:57

like me in authority?

25:59

of my body not self-love.

26:02

Like I don't have to wake up every single

26:04

day and be like, I love my body like cellulite

26:07

every day. Like for me to still love and

26:09

care

26:09

for myself. Self-love,

26:13

for

26:13

me it's always been in

26:15

acceptance. Okay, like today

26:18

actually, like I'm talking really terribly

26:20

to my body and like that's okay for today, cool. Like

26:23

I'm not loving it today or I'm not

26:26

feeling great about this, you know. And I think

26:29

I bring that into

26:30

all pockets of my life,

26:32

which I think for people they

26:34

connect with and ultimately

26:37

is interpreted

26:37

as vulnerability, which is true. Cause

26:40

my vulnerability is just my truth and I'm not gonna

26:42

get on here and lie. Yeah,

26:44

no, completely. I really, I admire

26:46

that in you. Cause when I think about vulnerability,

26:49

I think that was probably the hardest

26:51

thing for me to be

26:54

able to let people in and see that, especially

26:57

like in an industry where I would go

26:59

into rooms and I'd have to write with so many

27:02

producers and so many men. And I

27:04

felt like I really had to hold my own and prove

27:06

that I deserve to be there or whatever.

27:08

And so I'd always put on this like quite severe,

27:10

tough exterior to try and like

27:13

prove a point.

27:15

And then, you know, lace

27:17

down the line I had to just like shed all

27:19

of that

27:20

skin to just be like, it's okay to

27:22

be vulnerable. And that actually helped me get

27:25

to like a really good place in

27:27

my writing where I felt like I was being so much

27:29

more honest, so much more real with myself, so much

27:31

more. I was like, there's nothing I can do. Why

27:33

am I hiding or shying away from my

27:35

own human experience? Because I feel

27:37

like I have to put on this like front.

27:45

We'll be right back. How you feeling today? Let

27:47

me not get into that.

27:54

We're

28:00

gonna see it. And there's gonna be consequences. There's

28:02

gonna be consequences. Your voicenotes

28:04

are back. I just wanted to tell you guys

28:07

how that made me

28:07

feel. And don't forget, they've got

28:09

your back. Trust me, guys, when I have

28:12

a malleable be sick and tired. Mary

28:14

and Musa. Oh, yeah. Adeola

28:16

Patron. I am that

28:17

girl. Press. Listen on BBC Sounds.

28:25

I guess we all have these kind of pivotal moments in our

28:27

lives where we realize the transformative

28:30

power of art, whether it's

28:32

the way that we share it or the way that

28:34

we receive it.

28:35

Can you remember a specific

28:37

experience that made you realize

28:40

the incredible healing

28:42

potential of

28:43

art? Yeah. I

28:46

mean, I have really

28:48

kind of calcified memories. I'm

28:50

a very like, memoryed

28:52

person. And much

28:55

of my like links to memories

29:00

that bring up like joy for me have

29:03

to pertain to art, largely

29:05

music and books like

29:07

literature. Like I remember I was

29:09

listening to Madonna's music

29:12

album recently

29:12

and I was saying, oh, I love

29:14

this album because everyone just thinks like music.

29:17

But I was like, there are some tracks

29:19

on this album because I remember

29:22

being young. There was like that Sony

29:25

like blue boom box. And I was

29:27

also like

29:27

I had siblings, but I was also in like weird solitude

29:30

a lot when I was younger

29:31

and surrounded by people. But

29:33

I just have these like very specific memories

29:36

on my own and then

29:38

navigating like my

29:40

own femininity. I felt fundamentally

29:42

as a kid, like not beautiful because I was chubby.

29:44

I was surrounded by a lot of like thinner,

29:46

like white peers. I felt fundamentally

29:49

like

29:50

not a girl, not like

29:52

a gendered exploration, but just not

29:54

in the way that I was understanding

29:57

it. And I remember literally living

29:59

in the same place. listening to this album on this boombox, and

30:02

that

30:03

Madonna song, like, but

30:05

it feels like for a

30:07

girl, and like stealing my mom's like weird makeup

30:09

and like painting the makeup on like a clown. And

30:12

like those versions of like getting

30:14

to my own humanity as like a really young

30:16

girl through music and

30:19

that art. That felt so intensely

30:21

personal that like, I think when I was younger,

30:23

I used to be embarrassed of thinking of something like

30:25

that. And then I was listening to the album

30:27

again recently. And I was like, oh my God.

30:30

And like all of the songs, you know, or the

30:33

first time I remember being in like eighth

30:36

or ninth grade and

30:38

I read The Bluest Eye, which was like one of my favorite

30:40

books by Toni Morrison. It's kind of like her seminal

30:42

text

30:43

and

30:45

experiencing life

30:47

through someone else's

30:49

life, you know, coming to terms with

30:51

that understanding and that

30:53

being so present, I think when I was younger

30:56

and I had so much more time to

30:58

spend with art in the ways it felt

31:01

like there was nothing else in the world

31:03

besides me and this boom

31:05

box that's playing this like song.

31:08

And there's nothing besides me and these pages

31:10

like sitting in my messy bedroom.

31:13

And I think that art

31:15

creates that freedom or like the walls can

31:17

kind of fall away in it. And I

31:20

miss that time, but

31:22

I also, I'm in constant

31:24

pursuit of creating those times, you know, and

31:26

what it means to kind of be a part of something,

31:32

you know, which like I think art fundamentally

31:34

does, you know, you feel a part of something.

31:37

I'm always trying to recreate that same Madonna

31:39

moment. I

31:42

can relate to that moment 1000%. It's

31:45

funny also, like when you listen

31:47

back to music and immediately it brings you back

31:49

that feeling. So you know that that childlike self,

31:52

that childlike wonder is within you.

31:54

You just have to find ways to like unlock

31:56

it. And that can be like

31:58

a really...

32:00

healing process and a beautiful

32:02

one and it's so fun to have that.

32:05

I guess on the topic of healing, I was

32:08

reading an interview you did last year where

32:10

you spoke about realizing how important

32:12

it is for black women to rest because

32:15

as you put it we're not taught to do that.

32:17

Can you tell me more about the realization

32:20

and journey and the ways in which you've since

32:23

made necessary space for yourself to

32:25

find that rest and peace?

32:28

I think

32:31

I am a very cognitive

32:34

person that's been really

32:36

helpful in a lot of ways but

32:39

I've been out of consent

32:41

with my physical self for a long time

32:44

in many different departments but just really around

32:46

rest. Like most of my friends are like, Paloma

32:49

can like get off an airplane and like go and do

32:51

the thing. Like I'm like I used to really pride myself off

32:53

the like I only need five hours. I just need

32:55

five hours and kind

32:58

of the work

33:00

in therapy and

33:02

just other like forms of like healing

33:05

has

33:06

actually taught me that

33:08

I do not just need five hours

33:11

actually because I've been so out

33:13

of consent with my physical you

33:16

know and I think that so many women specifically

33:19

black and brown women are not

33:21

given the space to be in any form of

33:23

consent with their bodies you know whether it's medically

33:26

whether it's sexually whether

33:29

it you know there's so many ways that we

33:31

just are out of consent with ourselves

33:34

and one way that I've kind of like taken

33:37

power back is

33:37

doing a lot of like somatic work. My

33:40

therapist like funnily enough and

33:42

like frustratingly enough I'll be like going on

33:44

this like intellectual tangent of like why this

33:46

is happening and like how does

33:48

it feel in your body

33:51

right now

33:52

and it's weird because it elicits this like I

33:54

feel a little embarrassed to describe it it

33:57

sounds childish almost like my

33:59

heart is

33:59

or like I'm sweating or like my

34:02

shoulders or things like that. But

34:05

in that practice of kind of like somatic

34:08

mapping,

34:08

I've also learned how

34:10

to notice when I

34:12

need rest

34:14

and like not be in

34:16

so much judgment in the times

34:19

when I slept

34:20

till 10, 10.30, try it.

34:21

And

34:24

it's like, okay, like literally that's

34:26

what my body needed. And it doesn't mean that

34:29

I need to sleep till 10.30 because

34:31

the day before I was on six airplanes and blah,

34:33

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I could have had a completely

34:35

relaxing chill day the day before and

34:37

still

34:37

needed to sleep until 10.30. That

34:42

is on just being more

34:44

in touch with my body. This is gonna be like a very long

34:47

journey for me personally because I've

34:49

used my brain as the leader,

34:52

as the ruler. And

34:56

it feels really empowering at this stage

34:58

in my life to really bring my whole body into

35:00

this experience. Well, it's ultimately

35:02

just about being more gentle with

35:05

yourself and finding compassion

35:07

and empathy

35:07

for yourself as well.

35:10

Yes. What advice would

35:12

you give to individuals who are

35:15

seeking to explore the spirituality and

35:17

harness the healing power of art

35:20

in their own lives? I

35:24

think I've said this before, but

35:28

find out things that you like

35:31

about yourself other than how you look.

35:33

But to expand on that to your

35:35

question is find out

35:37

what brings you joy outside of

35:39

how it would be perceived.

35:41

I think,

35:43

you know, find out what spiritually

35:46

makes you tick or what

35:48

serves you spiritually outside of what

35:50

you may have been indoctrinated into or

35:53

told and then like same with

35:55

art, you know, like it's okay.

35:57

to

36:00

explore art that other

36:02

people might think is corny

36:04

or whatever it is, but it's like find out what

36:08

works for you outside of how it would

36:10

be perceived.

36:11

For me using that as a metric

36:14

has been just eye-opening, like it's just

36:16

like cracked me open. So yeah.

36:19

I love that. Well, I would thank you so

36:21

much. It's been an absolute

36:23

joy talking to you and getting to

36:26

know you a little bit. It's been

36:28

really, really lovely. Thank you so much. I like

36:31

to end my episodes

36:33

by asking my guests for a list. And

36:37

I was wondering who are five

36:40

up and coming or under celebrated

36:43

creatives that you

36:44

have your eye on that you think the world

36:46

should be paying very close attention to. Okay.

36:50

Patricia Zamm, iconic

36:52

photographer, model, legend,

36:55

queer icon.

36:57

She's just fab and

37:00

I want her to get all of her flowers. I

37:03

think I'm pronouncing her name correctly,

37:05

but Alake Schilling, they're

37:07

a painter based out

37:09

of LA. They kind of create like really

37:11

beautiful, whimsical art and

37:15

sculpture that I think is amazing.

37:17

And I really would love people

37:20

to look at their stuff. I

37:22

have to shout out my brother though. Sage Elsasser,

37:26

he goes by Navy Blue.

37:28

He is a musician and rapper and,

37:31

you know, just making like really powerful music.

37:33

It's like really interesting to be in family

37:36

ship with someone that separately. I'm just like, wait, I

37:38

really like your music and I'm really proud of you. I think

37:40

you're really cool.

37:42

Kim Nguyen of Nguyen

37:45

Inc.

37:45

She's a designer, an

37:48

artist, and she's making

37:49

really amazing articles

37:52

of kolang out of like recycled

37:54

materials and

37:56

five.

38:01

I don't know. I've thought of four. Four

38:03

is good. Four is good. Four is perfect.

38:06

Okay. Thank you so

38:08

much, really. This has been so, so great.

38:11

I appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time out.

38:14

Oh my God, Jo, thank you so much.

38:20

So

38:20

what did you guys think? I'd

38:23

really love to know what your favorite takeaways

38:25

were. So be sure to reach out

38:27

to us on the Service95 socials, and

38:29

let us know. And throughout the next week,

38:32

we'll release exclusive video clips from my conversation

38:34

with Paloma on all our social media channels.

38:37

Be sure to follow us via the Service95 handle on

38:40

TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and threads

38:42

for those and so much more.

38:45

Thanks again to all of you for tuning in, and

38:48

see you next week for another episode of

38:50

Do A Leaper At Your Service. Bye.

38:59

Hello, I'm Jordan North. And I'm William Hansen.

39:03

And together we host Help I Sexed My Boss, a podcast that

39:05

combines William's World of Etiquette tips with

39:07

Jordan's special Northern charm. We

39:10

help navigate the everyday challenges of modern

39:12

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39:14

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search for Help I Sexed My Boss on BBC Sounds and

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