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I'm Morgan Freeman

1:21

and this is Six Degrees from Jamie and Spencer. You know what,

1:23

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1:25

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1:27

about? J-Lo, Morgan Freeman, Samuel

1:30

Jackson, dare I say more. They came on because,

1:32

apparently, rumour has it, they love me. You

1:34

know that they're only talking to you to get to me. Whoa, whoa,

1:37

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm producer Phil, I'm

1:39

the one that gets us the A-list guests around here. So,

1:42

join us for the podcast that's all about making new

1:44

friends and have lots of fun on the way. And hopefully

1:47

we stay friends too. Beautiful. Six

1:49

Degrees from Jamie and Spencer. This

1:50

is going to be amazing. Only

1:52

on BBC Sounds. BBC

1:55

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Heyya,

2:13

and welcome back to Dua Lipa at your service.

2:16

That moment the rose petals fell from the

2:18

drag queen Sasha Velour's wig on the

2:20

RuPaul's drag race grand finale, it

2:23

gives me chills just thinking

2:25

about it again. Sasha

2:28

Velour, Shantae, you stay.

2:29

It

2:32

was so clear to me that Sasha was special, a drag

2:35

queen who would take the world by storm. She's

2:37

quite possibly one of the most deserving drag race

2:40

winners of all time. It's

2:42

been six years since her coronation and

2:44

Sasha has only continued to blossom. She's

2:47

taken her one of a kind drag act around

2:49

the globe and back again, all while

2:52

remaining dedicated to the New York City drag

2:54

scene she came up in. In April,

2:57

she released her first ever book, The

2:59

Big Reveal, which is part memoir,

3:01

part drag history, and all parts

3:03

brilliant. I had the pleasure of reading

3:05

The Big Reveal and found myself so swept

3:08

up in learning about cultures and histories

3:10

I'd never seen written about before. I

3:13

highly, highly recommend checking it out. Sasha

3:16

is just one of the many incredible drag artists

3:18

I've watched and adored from afar in recent years.

3:21

There's so much drag out in the world that it blows

3:23

my mind, and I especially love to see

3:25

drag queens like Lagannja Estranger and

3:28

Trinity K. Bonet perform the hell

3:30

out of my songs on the show.

3:36

Right now, there's a lot of concern that anti-drag

3:38

laws are being passed all around the world, but

3:41

so many of us feel that drag promotes freedom

3:43

of self and speech and empowers and

3:45

creates community.

3:46

I feel like Sasha is part of

3:48

our Service 95 family. She

3:51

did a takeover of one of our earliest issues

3:53

with a story about the nine things you should know

3:55

about the art of drag. So if

3:57

you've been with us since the start, you'll know how to do it.

3:59

smart and thoughtful she is on the art form.

4:02

I'm so excited to share this conversation

4:04

with you, so please welcome this week's

4:07

guest, Sasha Velour.

4:12

Hi Sasha, how are you doing? Hello,

4:14

gorgeous. I'm fantastic,

4:16

how are you doing? I'm so, so excited

4:19

to have you on the podcast and

4:21

I've been really looking forward to this conversation.

4:23

I want to

4:25

start by asking you a big question,

4:28

which I think you've done a really comprehensive

4:30

job at addressing in your book.

4:33

Sasha, what is drag?

4:36

The impossible question. The

4:38

impossible question. I mean, I

4:40

think drag surrounds

4:42

us, like we all know drag a little

4:45

bit, because it's the performance

4:48

of gender. And

4:49

we live in both a kind of non-binary

4:52

world and a very binary one, in

4:55

which we're interacting with ideas

4:57

of gender all the time. And for

4:59

some of us, those are just

5:02

ideas, myths that we can play

5:04

with, that we can play dress up in. Drag

5:07

is the art of having fun

5:09

with gender again, of making it joyful, of

5:12

making it imaginative, and

5:14

of making it a place that doesn't restrict

5:16

people, giving people true freedom.

5:19

Yeah, you mentioned about, you know, it's

5:21

freedom, it's drag is natural, it's

5:23

human, and it's always been a part of culture. And

5:26

as I just mentioned, you've, you know, you released an incredible

5:29

book called The Big Reveal, which is

5:31

a manifesto

5:31

about drag and its history, and

5:34

you trace drag back to its roots

5:37

and the way that it's been ingrained in global

5:39

culture and how drag has

5:41

essentially been around for centuries, 15,000 years

5:43

at your count. For

5:46

my listeners, who may

5:47

have only been exposed to drag with the

5:49

rise of pop culture phenomenon, RuPaul's Drag

5:52

Race, like, can you bring us a little bit back in time

5:54

and

5:54

give us a little quick lesson on some places

5:57

it comes from and how it's changed

5:59

and grown and. in its different forms. Okay,

6:02

let's try to get the highlights.

6:05

I think people think that drag wasn't popular

6:08

before right now,

6:09

but I discovered, and this

6:11

has obviously been known before, but it was kind

6:13

of new to me, how successful

6:16

drag artists have been in the past. Looking

6:19

at like British superstars

6:21

like Danny LaRue, who was the first

6:23

drag artist in Vogue magazine in the

6:26

1960s and was a comedian

6:28

and singer and appeared on television

6:30

shows. And then at the

6:33

turn of the century, vaudeville

6:35

stars like Julian Eltinge,

6:38

even like Josephine Baker, worldwide stars

6:41

who played with gender, crossed

6:43

and traversed gender lines and gender

6:45

norms in their acts and became worldwide

6:48

sensations.

6:49

But then it goes back even further,

6:51

I found, to some of the first times

6:54

that theater was invented, that

6:56

music was invented. People were

6:58

interested in dressing up across

7:01

the boundaries of gender, I guess. And

7:04

gosh, I guess it could go even back to religion, which

7:06

in some ways was the original

7:08

theater. I don't know, maybe that's my super

7:11

controversial take.

7:12

Yeah, well, I found the

7:15

history of drag section in your book

7:17

particularly fascinating and

7:19

especially how like other cultures had links

7:21

to it and especially like

7:23

drag and like mystical and spiritual leaders

7:26

and shamans. And while I was reading

7:28

it, I was thinking

7:30

about a conversation I had with Russell Brand

7:32

actually on the podcast last year. And

7:35

he was telling me about a book he had read and

7:38

there was a comparison that suggested that show

7:41

business was likely

7:41

born out of shamanism, which

7:44

was really quite interesting. I

7:46

was so struck reading about the shamans, descriptions

7:49

of, specifically I guess shamans, was

7:51

the name of healers and

7:54

mystical guides in Central Asia and

7:56

in Siberia.

7:58

And then that word was used to describe the.

7:59

same kind of

8:01

figures that existed all over the world. But

8:05

the way that they performed, and

8:07

I mean, it really was a performance, there would

8:09

be a drum beat, a fire

8:11

that created light and cast shadows on

8:13

the wall, and then an act

8:16

in which the person would transform

8:18

and become different genders, become

8:21

different types of animals. And

8:23

the idea was that if you had that fluidity,

8:26

that you could become different

8:28

figures, different past ancestors, different

8:31

kinds of cultural figures, that you were

8:34

connected to the forces that

8:36

shaped the world. And I think that

8:38

that seemed like, like maybe

8:40

it was used to balance things out,

8:43

or you could heal someone, or it would

8:45

be used to celebrate someone's life

8:47

or someone's passing or a marriage

8:49

or bring good luck. And I think people kind of

8:51

turn to performance in the same way. Like

8:54

it's so impactful to see

8:56

someone

8:57

become in front of your eyes. So

9:00

interesting as well. I mean, like you're

9:03

such a brilliant performer, and I think

9:05

it is a kind of spiritual experience

9:08

to watch someone

9:09

sing and transform,

9:11

to watch someone lip sync hopefully, if

9:14

you do it in an exciting way. Absolutely.

9:17

I think, you know, essentially it's just about connection

9:20

and how performance is, you

9:22

know, so freeing and such an expression

9:24

of someone's soul,

9:27

essentially

9:27

they're like aura and how that connects

9:29

with the audience. And what I

9:31

find really interesting is that you're the first

9:34

drag queen to really like dive

9:36

into drag's history like this. And

9:40

with a book like yours written by

9:42

someone like you, like

9:43

this has never existed before. Like

9:46

why did you feel like now was the

9:48

right moment to write a book, you know, chronicling

9:50

the history of drag? And why

9:52

did you feel up to the task to do it in

9:54

the first place? I

9:57

tried to prepare myself so I would

9:59

be up to the task.

9:59

it felt like a really essential one. There's so

10:02

much misinformation about drag

10:04

from both sides, from people who love it and from people

10:07

who think it's some kind of abomination

10:09

and scandal. So I think one of my goals

10:12

with this book was to,

10:14

first of all, chart just how normal and natural

10:17

queer expression, queer people are

10:19

in the world history, but also

10:22

to show distinctions between

10:24

many, maybe on the surface, disparate

10:27

variations of this art.

10:29

To say this does come from the same impulse, we

10:31

are all part of the same big community.

10:34

And then I just tried to read as much as I could.

10:36

I literally made a map and a chronology

10:40

because I wanted to make sure I was sampling

10:42

drag from every continent,

10:44

that I had an inclusion that spun

10:47

as much world history as I could. Because

10:50

I felt like there are all these missing pieces in the story and

10:52

it has to be so much richer

10:55

than just America and just Britain. It

10:57

has to be so much further back than just the 20th century. I

11:01

read that your dad, Papa

11:03

Vellore, he's

11:05

an author as well and a historian. Yeah, he's a

11:07

historian of revolution. And so

11:10

do you feel like that

11:12

kind of inspired your,

11:15

you know, wanting to go in chronological order

11:17

and really dive into the history of drag? Or

11:20

do you think you got inspired

11:22

by him? I also read that you

11:24

were saying he's doing something drag

11:27

related in his next book or

11:29

something. So maybe you're inspiring each other. There's

11:31

a whole family affair going on here. I

11:33

love that. I'm really touched that he's

11:36

taken up an interest in queer history

11:38

as a straight

11:40

seven-year-old professor.

11:42

Because when I first started doing drag,

11:45

he was not so on board. He

11:47

felt like, yeah, he was skeptical.

11:51

My mom was a

11:52

little skeptical as well. She

11:55

was concerned that

11:57

that drag maybe was parody or

11:59

it was...

12:00

It was like simply making fun

12:03

of gender. And I

12:05

tried to show not just through my own artwork,

12:07

but by sharing the people I love who

12:09

inspire me

12:10

that this is really just art, pure

12:13

and simple, freed from the

12:15

restrictions of gender. It makes it such

12:17

a feminist art form because it's about

12:19

people having autonomy

12:21

over their own presentations.

12:23

I read in your book that your

12:26

grandma, Dina, she

12:28

was the first person to put you into drag.

12:31

Absolutely. You know,

12:33

your story is sadly probably

12:35

one of the rarer ones when

12:37

it comes to families and queer

12:40

acceptance. You know, how

12:42

has their support then and now

12:44

helped you turn into

12:46

the person and the performer you are

12:49

today? Well, I wanted to tell a happy

12:51

story because I think we deserve

12:53

those to look to, not

12:55

just traumatic ones. I

12:57

think this is the dream

13:00

for queer kids like myself,

13:02

is to have a family that's not gonna judge

13:04

you, that's just gonna meet you where you are,

13:07

allow you to become

13:09

the person that you're dreaming of.

13:12

And blessedly, like my family, were

13:15

kind of self-professed radical

13:17

hippies and they may have, one of the things

13:20

to be feminist and experimental

13:22

and anti-capitalist and all kinds of other

13:24

ridiculous things, but they allowed

13:26

me to be gay

13:28

before I knew what it was myself

13:32

and didn't want me to feel shame for

13:34

just being who I am. And I

13:38

actually meet a lot of families

13:40

like that more and more. Like

13:42

getting to tour, getting to

13:45

do drag in public has been such a privilege.

13:47

And the best part is when

13:49

people come with their parents to a drag

13:52

show and they come in drag and

13:54

their moms are taking video

13:57

of them and photos and they're so proud.

14:00

But I think that's the most beautiful

14:02

thing that a family can have.

14:04

What was your first exposure

14:07

to drag like and what

14:09

did that make you feel? I have a hard time

14:11

remembering what my first exposure

14:13

to drag was, because when I saw like I

14:15

write about this in the book and so many people

14:19

feel this way, too. But when I saw the Wicked Witch of the

14:21

West in The Wizard of Oz, I was

14:23

like, this is a drag diva. Like

14:26

I get that she's evil, but she's glamorous.

14:28

She's gorgeous. She knows what she wants.

14:31

She's going to fight for it. And it's all

14:33

about shoes. So a little

14:35

ruby slippers, a symbol of power

14:38

like every high heel. Yeah. I

14:41

think the first drag queen I ever

14:43

saw was RuPaul.

14:45

And it shows like how having representation

14:47

on TV can give you maybe

14:49

it doesn't totally transform the world,

14:51

but it gives you an idea that

14:53

starts a journey. And I saw RuPaul

14:56

on Sister Sister with Tien

14:58

Tamara Mowry. And the 90s and

15:01

she wasn't even playing a drag queen. She just was

15:03

playing a tall, glamorous kind

15:06

of judgmental woman. And I thought, oh,

15:08

my gosh, this is someone fabulous

15:10

that I connect with. And I don't even know why. That's

15:13

amazing.

15:14

Sasha, what are some of the differences

15:16

between Sasha in and out

15:18

of drag? Oh,

15:21

my gosh. I think I'm so like

15:23

giggly and soft out of drag. And

15:25

then so like

15:27

intense and severe in drag.

15:30

It is it really shows that

15:32

like myths about gender are

15:34

just that. I love

15:36

channeling like

15:38

a vengeful, powerful

15:41

energy when I'm in drag. And

15:43

I mean, my first drag numbers were kind

15:46

of scary. Like

15:49

I I often like would kill

15:51

men who had done bad on stage

15:53

in my performances. Some

15:55

of my Brooklyn drag siblings were like, we miss

15:58

those. You should bring those back.

15:59

I'm like, no, I'm trying to soften it,

16:02

make it more about emotion, less about revenge.

16:06

But there's a place for that as well. The

16:08

Wicked Witch's influence. Yeah, I

16:10

mean, I've seen so many videos of

16:12

your performances and I'm dying to

16:14

see something live soon. For sure,

16:16

I would love to come down and see your show.

16:20

You know, we've done some Dua Lipa

16:22

songs at my nightgown show.

16:25

I haven't performed to you yet, but

16:27

I think this is, that would be, if you're

16:29

in the audience,

16:29

I might just have to. But we had an incredible

16:33

performance to One Kiss years

16:35

ago by my drag sister,

16:37

Neon Calypso. And she like,

16:40

I think you would be so proud of it. She

16:42

made it all about this moment when she

16:44

performed and was recognized

16:47

as, and given a chance for the first

16:49

time as a teenager and made it as

16:51

like a love letter to how you

16:53

can just like, kind of that one

16:55

person believing in you in a room, cliche. It

16:59

brought tears. Oh, that's amazing.

17:02

I have to make my way one night for

17:04

sure to come

17:04

see you. A listener

17:07

asked in, what quality does your

17:09

drag persona have that you wish you

17:11

had

17:11

in your life off stage? I'm sure

17:13

it's a cliche, but the confidence

17:16

of the armor of drag,

17:19

I'm trying to learn to carry that with

17:21

me. That's one of the reasons I turned

17:23

to drag is because I wanted to imagine

17:25

myself as a more powerful being

17:28

who knew how to take up space in the world. And

17:31

I have to remember like I'm

17:33

the same person. So

17:36

if I could do it on stage, but somehow

17:38

the character, the setting, the

17:40

lights, the audience, it helps

17:42

make it.

17:43

I feel the same way. Really? Like

17:45

when I'm performing, I think I get up on

17:47

stage and I feel absolutely invincible.

17:49

And then actually like backstage,

17:52

I'm also, I'm like quite, like I'm

17:54

tough, but I'm quite sensitive

17:56

and like gentle. And then I'm like, where is

17:58

that?

17:59

feeling of invincibility that you feel when you're

18:02

on stage and it

18:04

makes a difference, but. Do you feel like you designed

18:07

your onstage persona or did it just kind

18:09

of come organically? It

18:12

just came organically. I think also

18:14

a lot of the songs when I write them, I

18:16

write them from a perspective to make me feel

18:18

stronger.

18:20

Oh, that's so true. And so

18:22

then I kind of embody that character, which

18:24

then evidently leads me to feel that

18:27

energy. Yeah, you become that. But

18:30

they don't necessarily come from that place in the beginning. Like

18:33

I make a very

18:33

conscious decision to make

18:36

the songs that I write and the music I make

18:38

to make me feel

18:40

more empowered and strong and invincible

18:43

really is

18:45

kind of the only way I can describe it. Cause I

18:47

feel in that moment that I embody something

18:50

that again, like you said, something that I would like

18:52

to take with me off stage as

18:54

that kind of confidence.

18:55

It works, it's infectious. The music

18:57

like makes other people feel that too. How

19:01

did winning RuPaul's Drag Race

19:03

change your life?

19:05

The winner of RuPaul's Drag Race,

19:09

America's next drag superstar

19:11

is Sasha Ballou. Oh

19:16

my God. Is

19:21

there anything you'd like to say? Let's

19:24

change up. Let's

19:27

get inspired by all this beauty,

19:31

all this beauty and change

19:33

the motherf****** world. Oh

19:35

my gosh, it gave me so many

19:37

opportunities. And

19:40

right at the time when I won season nine,

19:43

there was a huge shift in the audience of

19:45

Drag Race. I think because of the transfer to

19:47

VH1, but also it was

19:50

available worldwide in a new way. And

19:53

I just tried to keep doing the same things I was

19:55

doing before, but just amp

19:57

it up and then bring my own levels to match.

19:59

I was working with different

20:02

costumers because I had been

20:04

wearing kind of whatever vintage clothes I could

20:06

afford literally from a thrift shop.

20:08

And the internet let me know that wasn't

20:10

quite good enough. So I learned

20:13

about how to work with designers and make

20:15

truly like

20:16

gag worthy looks. Well, they were

20:18

very gag worthy for sure. Thank

20:21

you. Thank you. It's

20:23

not one of my most enjoyable things to wear something

20:26

custom. That also like

20:28

leads to the transformation.

20:30

We'll be right back.

20:57

And of course, what should you do if you've accidentally

21:00

sexed at your boss? Just

21:02

search for help I sexed my boss on BBC

21:04

sounds and help us change your life for the

21:06

better or potentially maybe make things

21:09

worse. It could.

21:12

Go

21:27

either way.

21:56

I'm sure you've been asked this before, but

21:59

would you ever. for an all-winners

22:01

season of Drag Race, especially

22:03

now that they've already done one. Or

22:05

do you think you'd prefer to come back as like a

22:08

lip-sync assassin? I

22:11

would do anything, honestly. Yeah?

22:14

Yeah, I just, you know, I'm happy

22:16

to use the platform

22:17

to try

22:20

to

22:20

reach more people. I love sharing

22:23

what I do.

22:24

And I think I've changed a lot since

22:26

I was on TV. So I think

22:28

so many people, their only frame of reference

22:30

for drag is Drag Race. And

22:33

I wanna fight that a little bit,

22:35

push back, tell people to go and support

22:37

local shows to follow what their

22:39

favorite queens do after the show.

22:42

But I also like gotta work with the system

22:45

as it is. And if going back on

22:47

Drag Race means I get a chance to show people

22:49

how

22:50

much I've learned and how much work I've done, I would

22:52

love to do that. I

22:54

feel like I'm a totally heightened

22:56

drag queen since they last

22:58

saw me. So I think it would be pretty fun.

23:00

I mean, I'm just like imagining it. I think

23:02

people would lose their minds, I think,

23:05

because you kind of sent everybody on like a

23:07

wild goose chase after

23:09

your like final performances

23:12

on Drag Race. So

23:14

I think that would be something very exciting.

23:17

So I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

23:20

I keep trying to come up with new kinds of

23:22

ridiculous reveals. And

23:24

to support the book, I've been doing this like

23:27

little mini book show. And

23:29

I try to do as many

23:31

ridiculous reveals as possible.

23:34

And I feel like they're definitely Drag Race

23:36

ready ones. I don't wanna spoil anything, but

23:39

I try to like, you know,

23:41

pop out and have things pop out of me

23:44

in ways that people have not seen before. Oh,

23:47

that's really exciting. I feel like I got some

23:50

hot goss now. Speaking

23:52

about, you know, working with

23:54

the system as it is, very early

23:56

on in your book, you kind of poke fun

23:58

at like the necessary evils.

23:59

of doing reality

24:02

TV to expand your platform. You joke

24:04

about a fictional manager asking

24:06

you to do Dancing with the Stars, sell

24:08

a lip kit, release a dance

24:10

track in order to help sell the book. Like,

24:12

have you felt that

24:14

tension between art and commerce

24:17

and, you know, message before when it comes

24:20

to drag and like, how do you navigate

24:22

that? For now, I think like

24:25

writing the conflict is really

24:27

exciting to me and being able

24:29

to laugh at

24:31

the very real push and pull that

24:33

I think many of us feel between wanting

24:36

true authenticity as artists,

24:38

as humans,

24:39

and then also needing to survive

24:42

in this world, needing if like, if I'm gonna be

24:44

a full-time artist, I do have to make

24:46

money and somehow keep

24:48

that machine going. So I

24:50

think trying to reconcile that, I just wanna illuminate

24:53

it at first, not pretend that

24:55

like every step I make is

24:57

completely authentic when some of the

25:00

moves I do make are about survival. I

25:02

mean, I don't know what the answers are. I keep

25:04

joking like it's a privilege to sell out.

25:06

Like, please let me have my corporate

25:08

crossover. I'm ready to be sponsored.

25:11

I'm ready to release the lip kit. Those

25:15

things aren't exactly happening for me behind

25:17

the scenes. I'm still like kind of living

25:19

the

25:19

life of a hustling artist.

25:22

But

25:23

when my makeup line comes out, I hope everyone

25:26

knows

25:27

this is me trying to soak it all

25:29

up. In your

25:31

art,

25:32

you've always been incredibly intersectional

25:36

and diverse in who you choose to spotlight

25:38

and platform. And we've

25:40

just seen the

25:42

last drag race crowning

25:44

of the trans icon, Sasha

25:46

Colby, who

25:48

is a regular performer at your

25:51

New York City show, Nightgowns. And

25:54

you're constantly showcasing drag

25:57

kings, non-traditional queens.

25:59

many more members of the queer and drag

26:02

communities. Like, where did that

26:04

mission come from? And why has it become

26:06

such a backbone of

26:08

your art and your advocacy?

26:11

It's just my love of good drag

26:13

that brought me to that place.

26:15

And I think like part of

26:17

me when I started my show did

26:19

want to teach people

26:22

who might be new to drag what drag is. And

26:25

I felt like I couldn't do that with

26:27

without like an expansive

26:29

selection. But

26:30

it's really not just about

26:33

checking boxes or anything. It's

26:35

it's like this is what inspires

26:38

me. I mean, I don't know. Some people

26:40

maybe are more like like

26:42

just one style of drag. And I love that

26:45

for them. But I really love like every

26:48

single aspect of drag from like divine

26:51

screaming on a microphone to like

26:54

a pageant legend like Sasha Colby

26:57

or like Monica Monroe, one of her heroes,

26:59

like

26:59

standing absolutely still and just giving

27:02

the most perfect, glamorous lip sync.

27:04

I think that's all so

27:06

stunning, so inspiring. Honestly,

27:09

like every performer, every person

27:11

needs

27:11

to draw a little bit from all those directions

27:14

in life to access their

27:16

full self. Like we all need the screaming

27:18

naked, chaotic self and

27:21

the absolutely queenly royal

27:24

one. It just it all

27:26

sounds so like fun

27:28

and exciting and energizing and

27:30

adventurous and creative. But

27:32

then, you know, I want to talk to you about a huge

27:36

conversation topic lately that's

27:38

been in the news, which has been the labeling of

27:40

drag as like obscene or

27:43

sexually explicit and like

27:46

chatter about the way some people that could say like

27:48

disturb or confuse children.

27:51

Something like a drag queen story,

27:53

our library, for instance, has

27:55

become like a target of like widespread

27:58

panic attacks. Like why do you think?

27:59

that people consider drag dangerous and

28:02

why now? Oh my gosh, it's hard.

28:04

It's honestly hard for me to wrap my head around because

28:07

Drag Queen Story Hour is literally

28:10

children's books read

28:12

by people dressed as princesses

28:15

and fairies. It's so child-friendly

28:18

and so reminiscent of things that

28:21

children already love. I think

28:24

there's like active misinformation.

28:27

There's like

28:27

doctored videos that show

28:30

more adult drag performances being performed

28:32

around children.

28:34

But also like the human body

28:36

is not in itself sexual

28:39

or inappropriate like someone, it's

28:41

just dance

28:43

and people being comfortable with their bodies. And that's

28:45

like,

28:46

that happens in people's houses, that happens

28:48

on TV, that's

28:49

just a normal part of life. I

28:51

think

28:52

to many conservative people, I guess,

28:55

they want to really underscore the message,

28:57

girls are only allowed to do this, boys

29:00

are only allowed to do this. To

29:02

be a normal person, you have

29:04

to behave and this in such a way and drag

29:07

it completely rejects

29:09

that message and says, girls

29:12

can do anything, boys can do anything,

29:14

you can be non-binary

29:16

if that feels right for you or gender fluid.

29:19

And then that when it comes to what you

29:21

do with your own body, that's

29:24

not for anyone to decide. Yeah, of

29:26

course, in the current climate, there are so

29:28

many people celebrating

29:31

drag and drag queens.

29:33

But also as we've touched on, there's also

29:36

so much hate too. Like

29:38

how do you combat those voices

29:40

of ignorance and how do you protect your mental

29:43

health and how do you find the strength

29:45

to power through it to lead

29:48

a conversation

29:49

about change on the other side? Oh,

29:52

it's a combination of kind

29:54

of sometimes tuning out the hateful

29:56

voices, telling myself not

29:58

to engage or... Acknowledge

30:00

it, maybe smiling and laughing

30:03

in the face of people telling me that

30:05

I'm disgusting or frightening because

30:08

that's all you can do sometimes is

30:10

laugh, especially because it does seem so ridiculous.

30:13

I know that if I felt like

30:15

I was the only person I knew dealing

30:18

with this, it would be too much.

30:20

But thankfully I have a community of people who

30:23

do drag, who face similar

30:26

pushback in the world. And we get together and

30:28

we have a cocktail or have coffee and

30:30

go for a walk in the park, breathe in the

30:32

air, look at our silly dogs

30:35

and give each other a little larger

30:38

context. And I think that that

30:40

is their strength in there and a bigger context

30:42

or a reminder that we're not alone

30:45

and that there's somehow we can balance

30:47

out and return to a reasonable view that

30:49

this is totally normal and we can get

30:51

through this and we can keep going. Yeah,

30:53

and to remember that the things that happen online,

30:56

people love to hide behind

30:58

their screens. And a lot of the time those

31:01

people would never come up and like say it to your

31:03

face, it's a very different

31:05

experience, the power of people hold and

31:07

they can

31:08

remain anonymous. But

31:11

I'd be remiss if I didn't turn to what's

31:13

happening in America right now, which

31:16

is the onslaught

31:17

of anti-trans and anti-drag

31:19

legislation that politicians are passing

31:21

in places like Kentucky, Alabama

31:23

and Texas. Can you tell me

31:25

what's

31:26

happening, how long it's been going

31:28

on and what are the most pressing issues that

31:30

we need to be concerned about? Yeah, there are

31:33

over 400 anti-trans,

31:36

anti-drag bills currently

31:38

facing the country.

31:41

I think it's being mirrored in places like the UK, in

31:43

Canada and then of course

31:46

reflects things that have already happened

31:48

in different places in the world, like places like

31:51

Russia, parts of Poland, have

31:53

rules about no visible

31:56

queer expression being allowed. It's

31:59

an extremely... fascist worldview.

32:01

I think we have

32:03

to combat it. The ACLU is

32:05

doing a great job of fighting

32:08

these laws and that can

32:11

happen on the legal level. And then

32:13

on the community level, we're trying to

32:15

raise money to support

32:17

young trans people who need to move out

32:20

of their homes who aren't safe with

32:22

their families or aren't safe in their communities,

32:25

trying to provide housing and medical

32:27

coverage,

32:28

food sometimes for the people who

32:30

are hit the hardest

32:32

by restrictive laws that deny them access

32:34

to freedom.

32:35

And then I think hopefully like there's a cultural

32:38

shift that can keep happening

32:40

where

32:41

we remind people that

32:44

queer and trans people are really like

32:46

a small minority just trying

32:48

to live our lives, that

32:50

this isn't some new wave

32:53

or whatever the myths that make people feel afraid

32:55

are that this is like taking over young people.

32:58

No, this is still a small group of people who

33:00

are just

33:01

finally accessing the tools and the language

33:03

to see ourselves clearly and

33:05

in a larger community. And

33:07

we need freedom and laws and protections.

33:10

I hope someday we will finally

33:13

pass like protections for

33:15

gender expression in the workplace, in schools,

33:18

in the world. We haven't had

33:20

laws that protect against discrimination for

33:22

gender expression. And I

33:24

think that's going to be a big international

33:27

legal step that needs to change. Yeah.

33:29

How can I and how can my listeners

33:32

be of service? You know, I tell

33:34

people to just like share

33:37

the drag that they love, share

33:39

trans leaders that they look up to with their

33:42

family or with their workplace

33:44

or school, especially if there's pushback to

33:46

just explain why you personally

33:49

connect

33:51

with queer culture and how it helps you,

33:53

whether you're queer or not, feel like you belong

33:56

in the world, get a sense of hope and joy

33:58

and beauty. And I think those.

33:59

individual stories do change minds.

34:02

And then when it comes to systemic change,

34:04

I think the biggest thing to do is look for

34:07

your local cities, queer

34:09

and trans focused housing

34:12

organizations, food pantries

34:14

that do not turn away based

34:16

on any kind of moral compass,

34:19

like not necessarily

34:21

religious focused organizations. And

34:24

almost every city, like here in New York,

34:26

my nightgown show has been raising like

34:28

around $5,000 every month to support

34:32

different organizations that provide housing

34:34

that deal with medical and legal

34:37

costs. Cause it's those small organizations

34:39

that really affect individuals,

34:42

safety and lives.

34:44

And if we can all do that for the people in our

34:46

city and our immediate community,

34:48

I think people are gonna be okay and we can get through

34:50

this. Amazing. Thank you so

34:52

much, Sasha. I love

34:54

to end my episode by

34:57

asking my guests for a list, which

34:59

is actually something you've already

35:01

done for your incredible news, Lesser

35:04

Takeover for Service 95, which

35:06

was last year, which was really when we

35:08

were in our very like baby form. So

35:10

I'm so grateful to you for doing

35:13

a long read for us. That was really, really exciting.

35:16

And you gave us a list of queer spaces to visit

35:18

all around the globe, both of which we'll

35:20

link in the show

35:21

notes. But today I have a new list

35:24

I'd like to ask you for. And

35:26

we started talking about

35:27

what drag is and could

35:29

be. So I wanted to end on this. For

35:32

my listeners out there looking to get into drag

35:34

who don't know where to begin, where can

35:36

they start?

35:37

Well, first of all, I would recommend

35:39

my book. I think I'd be

35:42

unfortunate not to. I second

35:44

that big time. I

35:46

tried to make it

35:48

historical, but fun. And

35:50

it has a reading list of places to

35:52

look up as well. There's so

35:55

much drag on

35:57

YouTube. That's something that

35:59

people can ask. totally for

36:01

free. I think

36:03

Monica Monroe, I've been watching videos

36:05

of this

36:06

mid-90s Miss Continental

36:09

and EOI winner

36:11

named Monica Monroe. Sasha Colby mentioned her

36:13

on Drag Race as well. And it was Sasha

36:15

Colby and Brooklyn Heights who are both

36:17

Miss Continental winners who introduced

36:20

me to this performer. And she has an

36:22

amazing lip-sync

36:25

to Shirley Bassey from 1994

36:29

that is on YouTube that will

36:31

blow your mind. She's so still, so

36:33

commanding. It's to

36:35

the rhythm divine. And oh my gosh,

36:38

it is pure power. I try to channel

36:41

her gestures and her eye contact in

36:44

everything I do now. Just even like pouring

36:46

water for myself. And

36:48

you can also, there's a lot of historical

36:52

drag available on YouTube.

36:54

Like you can watch Cochinelle

36:56

perform in Paris

36:59

in the 1950s. She was a

37:01

trans drag icon who

37:03

performed at all the clubs in Paris and traveled

37:05

to Berlin and created an organization

37:07

that helped other trans women access

37:10

information and figure

37:13

out how to get surgeries and finance

37:15

them.

37:16

Of course, I would recommend checking

37:19

out videos of Divine. Many

37:21

people have seen John Waters movies and know

37:23

Divine.

37:24

To me, that's like such another valid

37:26

side of drag. There's a video of her performing

37:29

in like a club

37:31

in Ohio and she just is screaming

37:34

at the audience. And she's like

37:36

kind of, she's kind of rude to

37:39

them, which is like a definitely

37:41

a different tradition of drag that I

37:43

love as well.

37:44

It reminds me of we had

37:46

my amazing drag race sister Peppermint

37:48

at the last nightgowns and she went into the audience

37:51

and she kind of had a similar energy actually.

37:54

And she's yelling like,

37:55

okay, touch me, touch me, touch me. And

37:57

everyone sort of started grabbing

37:59

her. fringe and touching her hips

38:02

and then she said stop

38:04

touching me and they immediately

38:07

stopped and just like that that command

38:09

that confidence and self self and what

38:11

you want like that

38:13

that's kind of a drag essence that

38:15

we every single person needs

38:17

in their life you ask for what you want

38:19

with love and then you get it yeah

38:23

amazing Sasha thank you so much

38:26

thank you so much I really appreciate

38:29

it it's been so fun talking

38:31

to you I loved reading your book and

38:34

I urge everyone to

38:36

go in and grab it and read it and

38:38

learn about the history and the art

38:40

of drag and Sasha I'm gonna

38:43

come and find you and we are going

38:45

on a night out and we're we're

38:47

doing the damn thing I will

38:49

put together the best night for you you

38:52

deserve the best thank

38:54

you so much thank you thank

38:56

you thank you I

39:00

can't thank Sasha enough for her warmth

39:02

her service and her time I

39:04

think she's an incredible and powerful spirit and

39:06

I'm just so lucky that we were able to have

39:09

her on the podcast if you

39:11

want to hear more from Sasha you can visit our service 95

39:13

website for her list of all the ways

39:16

you can consume drag at home and

39:18

we'll be dropping a few special video clips from

39:20

our episode on service 95 socials

39:23

so visit us there to see more of Sasha and

39:25

I in the days ahead

39:26

this week in our service 95

39:29

newsletter please be sure to also read

39:31

our deep dive into the recent wave of book

39:33

burnings and bannings both in the US

39:35

and globally it's a piece that's

39:37

sadly more relevant than ever so

39:40

subscribe now for free at service 95

39:43

comm to read that and so much more we'll

39:45

put all the links in the show notes including

39:47

the story Sasha wrote for us last year thanks

39:50

again for listening and I hope to see you all back here

39:52

next week for another episode of at your

39:54

service

39:55

bye

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