0:00

So we've got two guard dogs for

0:02

adoption. First up is Tinkerbell. And

0:05

then there's Brutus. All

0:30

four, take your base. The only thing worse than

0:32

a pitcher running out of gas on the mound

0:34

is your old phone running out of storage for

0:36

your photos in the stands. Goodbye, home run! Switch

0:39

to Verizon and get a great deal on a

0:41

new iPhone 15 Pro with

0:43

tons of storage for all the ballpark picks you want.

0:46

Just trade in your iPhone, any model in any

0:48

condition, so you'll feel like you're winning, even when

0:50

your team's not. Trade in any

0:52

iPhone in any condition for a great deal

0:54

on iPhone 15 Pro with Unlimited Ultimate and

0:56

get iPad and Apple Watch SE with the

0:58

Eligible Service Plan only on Verizon. Well,

1:00

come on to the final edition

1:02

of our position rankings here on

1:04

Dunked On as we work towards

1:06

selecting the top players in the

1:08

NBA regardless of position. So

1:10

we are now going to do

1:12

the point guards, perhaps the most

1:15

controversial because it has up and

1:17

down the most star power. This

1:19

is the position where these guys

1:21

get the ball the most. I

1:23

think the casual fan probably can

1:25

evaluate these guys the

1:28

best because they're on the ball the most.

1:30

So let's begin, Danny, with our quick

1:32

usual summary for those who may

1:34

have missed an earlier episode of how we do

1:36

this. The criteria is

1:39

we're imagining a full season starting today,

1:41

so regular season 82 games and playoffs,

1:45

and you heal players from short-term injuries, but

1:49

propensity for injury or recurring things,

1:51

those can still count. And this

1:53

is thinking about players on the

1:55

average team. So if they're, you know,

1:58

the surrounding talent, we're trying to eat. equalize

2:00

that versatility matters, malleability matters. But especially at

2:02

point guard, things are a little bit different

2:04

because just like with centers, which we discussed

2:07

over the last few days, if you cannot

2:09

fulfill the positional responsibilities of being the offensive

2:11

engine, and with point guard, the term is

2:13

so loaded because some people think of it

2:15

as an offensive role, we define it more

2:17

defensively, that if you can't run an offense,

2:20

then your team needs someone else who can.

2:22

So you need to be really good at

2:24

everything else. And there of course are guys

2:26

that can do that. Yeah, and you certainly

2:28

do run into that same thing where once

2:31

you get below a certain level as that

2:33

main offensive engine, you may start to run

2:35

into guys who are more fit guys who

2:37

can play off the ball a little bit

2:40

more, defend, shoot. If as

2:42

an unball guy, you're not really pushing

2:44

your team's offense to an extremely high

2:46

level. But generally the expectation here is

2:48

that you can at least dribble the

2:50

ball off the floor. Certainly that you're

2:52

capable of defending the other team's point

2:54

guard that you don't necessarily need to

2:56

be hidden. That's gonna give you extra

2:58

points here as well. What stands out

3:00

to you in terms of some of

3:02

the positional averages that we compile here?

3:04

And the way we do that is

3:06

to look at all players who've played

3:08

a thousand minutes this year and take

3:10

the average of the stats among them.

3:12

Point guards actually take slightly fewer three

3:14

point attempts per 36th than shooting guards,

3:16

but 37% as the

3:19

average among those top thousand, that's actually

3:21

basically the same. And generally speaking, point

3:23

guards are taking harder three point attempts,

3:25

larger off the dribble there. And

3:28

of course, assist per 36 is significantly higher. 6.5

3:31

per 36 there, or

3:33

if you wanna do it in terms of

3:35

Seth Partno's playmaking usage, 13.5 for point guards.

3:39

And the next highest I think is

3:41

significantly lower. I think it's like 8%

3:43

at any other position. Yes. Yeah,

3:46

shooting guards are 8.2. Yeah, it's interesting

3:48

actually that point guards are 13.5 and

3:52

then really it just goes between from

3:54

eight to about six when you go from

3:56

shooting guard to center. So the big

3:58

delineation that we have here. And a

4:00

big part of why some of these guys

4:02

are classified as point guards instead of shooting

4:04

guards and of course, Tombow guards do exist,

4:06

you may. Pribble with our classifications. And the

4:08

three point attempts, you know, being at 6.1

4:10

per 36, this has become, I think, more

4:12

of a shooting position over time that there

4:14

is that expectation. I think there's an understanding

4:16

that if you don't shoot the ball reasonably

4:18

well, and number one, ideally you can shoot

4:20

it off the dribble on a pick and

4:22

roll. And if you can't do that, then

4:24

you need to be able to at least

4:26

shoot it as an off-ball guy. And

4:29

with that, you better be the greatest rim attacker

4:31

we've ever seen at the position, basically,

4:33

to not be an offensive liability. And

4:35

of course, good enough that he can

4:37

give you the ball. Yeah,

4:39

so 6.1, three point attempts per 36. This

4:42

position doesn't get to the line a ton. So if you can

4:44

get that out of this position, that's like 3.3 per 36. They

4:47

do shoot 82% from the line. You

4:50

do get some more steals out of this position, 1.2 per 36. And

4:55

just for shits and giggles here, I want

4:57

to give you the South Partner rim protection

4:59

stats for this group. Contest percentage, 10.7%.

5:02

Remember, we just did the centers. That average

5:04

was 32, 33% contest percentage. And

5:08

for centers, the average rim field goal percentage a lot

5:10

on the contest is 58%. For

5:13

point guards, it's 73.5%. So

5:16

certainly, these things change a

5:18

lot. This is an offensive position you

5:20

wouldn't expect anything different. And speaking of

5:23

it as an offensive position, the

5:25

average of those thousand minute players is

5:27

a positive 1.1 offensive EPM

5:29

and a slight negative on defensive EPM.

5:31

And it's largely the same story with estimated

5:33

record. Can I make one other

5:36

note before we move on before we start ranking?

5:38

Of course. There is a

5:40

specific reason why we do position rankings

5:42

before the playoffs started. It's a mix

5:44

of recency bias and everything else. There

5:46

are so many players, even high on

5:49

this list, who I wish

5:52

we had playoffs just on the sense of like,

5:54

we're going to get testing of the concepts. And

5:56

that ties in with the big picture thing that

5:58

we'll get into, which is I think. I think

6:00

there's an aging of the top, like an

6:02

aging of some of the top guys in

6:04

this group, and then young players rising up,

6:06

but it's figuring out how those mesh and

6:08

like where the lines of delineation are. I

6:11

think this is the toughest year I've ever had

6:13

for that. Like usually I'm very picky with point

6:15

guards, I'm very definitive with point guards, and

6:18

I'm like, eh, you know, we'll see. And

6:20

then the other part of that is a couple of

6:22

the high profile guys have basically been hurt a significant

6:24

part of this year. And so

6:26

how do you reconcile that with everything else?

6:28

So this was the hardest year I've ever

6:30

had ranking point guards. One other thing here,

6:32

I wanna see if this trend persists over

6:34

time. This is the first year that we've

6:36

looked at this. Point guard actually has the

6:39

highest average age of players who have,

6:41

when you take the average of the

6:43

players who have played more than a

6:46

thousand minutes of position, Shooting

6:48

guard is 26.6, so is center. Small

6:51

forward, 26.7. Actually power forward

6:53

has the lowest at 26.0. I'm

6:57

not gonna describe a ton of significance

6:59

to that. You know, you got Chris

7:01

Paul, you got Mike Conley, some of

7:03

the older guys, Seth Curry, who are

7:05

skewing some of these numbers. But maybe

7:07

it is becoming the case because it

7:09

used to be back in the 90s, you

7:12

had Kevin Willis and Robert Parrish.

7:14

These guys who were just old

7:17

and but just knew how to defend in the post, playing

7:20

at center was more about rebounding and defending in

7:22

the post in some ways than it was about

7:24

room protection and certainly about pick and roll defense,

7:26

defending in space. So I do think there's so

7:28

many of the idea that maybe center has become

7:30

more of a young man's position, power forward has

7:33

become more of a young man's position. We also

7:35

may just be classifying guys who are younger and

7:37

less skilled at power forward, who may move to

7:39

small forward as they acquire more ball skills.

7:41

Like Keegan Murray. Over time, like Keegan Murray.

7:43

Yeah, he's a perfect example of that. But

7:46

maybe there's a feeling that at point guard,

7:48

particularly if you don't have to guard a

7:50

premium position, if you're a Chris Paul, Mike

7:52

Conley, a Seth Curry, as long as you

7:54

can shoot and pass, that you're still going

7:57

to be valuable at this position as long

7:59

as you can. because you can just stay

8:01

on the floor at least. So that's interesting.

8:03

Or maybe we're just in kind of an

8:05

operational period where there's just been a

8:08

good number of point guards who

8:10

are older, who've maintained their value.

8:12

Let's begin with tier one, number

8:14

one, who you got. This

8:16

is the first year in a long time

8:18

that I've been reluctant, but I do still

8:20

have Steph Curry, number one. His

8:22

playoff performance, you know, this is age 35 year,

8:25

but he has been like the only point guard who

8:27

has been the best player in the championship team at

8:29

any point in recent vintage. He is

8:31

still the driver of a successful offense, even

8:33

if it's not as successful as some of

8:35

his brethren. And Curry's, you

8:37

know, high volume, still incredible three

8:39

point shooting is an advantage. But

8:41

I will say tentatively, and this

8:43

is, I've said, I was definitely

8:45

less confident in this, I do preliminarily

8:48

have someone else in this tier. So

8:51

I have as much respect for what Steph

8:53

Curry has done in his career as anybody,

8:55

but did you not see that Shay Gilgis

8:57

Alexander was on this list? Like, did you

8:59

think we had a shooting guard or something?

9:02

I think he's, there's a pretty good argument

9:04

that he is the best offensive player of

9:06

anyone in the top 15. And

9:09

I think there was an unassailable argument that

9:11

he's the best defensive player of any point

9:13

guard in the top 15. And

9:16

to me, I didn't really have much trouble.

9:18

I had Shay Gilgis Alexander as my number

9:20

one tier one. I did not have anyone

9:22

else in this year. I have Shay as

9:24

the other guy in this tier. And part of

9:26

it for me is the playoff element. I

9:28

mean, it's been a few years since Gilgis Alexander

9:31

was there. He is a completely different player

9:33

at this point. His game is very predicated on

9:35

foul drawing and how that will translate. And

9:37

then the other part of it is the ecosystem

9:40

factor. I'm counting it slightly against Shay,

9:42

though slightly for him, where they play

9:44

with a space floor all the time.

9:46

And that makes life a lot easier.

9:48

The Warriors often play with two non

9:50

shooters, if not more on the

9:52

floor and Shay clearly, clearly better

9:54

defensively. Point guard defense does matter,

9:56

so it matters less to me than I think to the other

9:58

side. So let me add to that. Shay

10:01

I would say is one

10:03

of maybe three four guys on this

10:05

list that actually make a difference as

10:07

a rim protector. His test percentage 15.3%

10:09

and holds opponents

10:13

to 64.8% which again

10:15

that's not like you know unbelievable but when

10:17

you consider kind of the value over replacement

10:19

that is remarkable. Like he sticks his nose

10:21

in there defensively he'll play off the ball

10:23

more right like he's not like slithering over

10:25

screens he's not asked to do that but

10:28

he's you can talk about the context he's

10:30

part of what makes that OKC context

10:32

work right like you can play more

10:34

offensive type players smaller players around Chegios

10:37

Alexander because he's doing more on the

10:39

defensive end as a health defender and

10:41

then you know he's I

10:43

haven't checked what the leaderboard is recently but

10:45

at one point he was leading the league

10:48

in steals by Oprah steal per game which

10:50

is just absolutely insane I mean that is just so

10:52

valuable and we just haven't like I think the last

10:55

time Dan looked at this I asked him to that

10:57

at least as a like a month and a half

10:59

ago or so the last time that someone

11:01

had led the league by that many steals

11:03

per game was like back in the 80s

11:05

I think it was Alvin Robertson so that's

11:07

uh I think it's you know I'm not

11:09

gonna say he's the best defender of this

11:11

position like I'd probably say that that's feeling

11:13

so since we didn't have Caruso in this

11:15

group but and you know like your your

11:17

mileage will vary with like a men tops

11:20

and some of these other guys are like

11:22

more defensive specialists but among the guys who

11:24

have major offensive roles like there's nobody close

11:27

to him defensively in this

11:29

group and I think it's you know

11:31

if you look at the stats this year

11:33

I do think it's like pretty obvious to

11:35

me that he's the best offensive player like

11:37

I understand we could talk more about you

11:39

know how it's gonna turn into the playoffs

11:41

but he has the second highest or no

11:44

I'm sorry he is the highest scoring usage

11:46

at the position and he has the highest

11:48

true shooting at the position yeah the highest

11:50

of anyone who is you know more than

11:52

like a hundred minutes or so I mean

11:54

that's that's absolutely incredible it is and I

11:56

mean if you're if we're ranking a solely

11:58

on who on performance this year She goes

12:00

dog zeroes tier one number one. I mean he's

12:02

last time we did MVP you and I both

12:04

had him in the top tier And he was

12:07

the only point guard who was even close to

12:09

that and you're not I'm not arguing any of

12:11

those elements What makes it different is Joseph Alexander

12:13

shoots far fewer threes than the positional average here

12:15

He does a lot as a as a free-throw

12:17

shooter, and we'll see where that goes and

12:20

he is extremely productive as a defensive player

12:22

You're not going to get me to denigrate

12:24

Shay on that end at all And he

12:26

is definitely the best defender of any great

12:28

offensive player this position But will it will

12:30

it all work will it all fit together

12:33

like I'm fine being cautious for one more

12:35

year And I and if

12:37

he earns this if he earns the space there,

12:39

then I'll give it to him Well, here's the

12:41

other thing I would say is if this were

12:43

the Steph Curry of two years ago I think

12:45

I would have them in the same tier. I

12:47

just I think stuff is slipped enough Yeah,

12:50

I mean and we'll see you know I don't

12:52

know if they're even gonna make the playoffs this

12:54

year But the oh like he doesn't quite inspire

12:56

the same level of fear He hasn't been as

12:59

effective as a driver this season as he

13:01

was even last year and certainly the

13:03

year before Hey shooting forty point five

13:05

percent on threes You know, he's not

13:07

in the forty two percent range or

13:09

forty three percent range as he's been

13:11

before His minutes have been down

13:13

a little bit. He has stayed healthy But

13:16

and the true shooting which is sixty one

13:18

point eight percent this year Yeah, that's been

13:20

in the sixty four sixty five percent range

13:22

in prior years I think his defense has

13:25

really fallen off from two years ago as

13:27

well and that's no shade on him Like

13:29

he's about to turn 36 and he's he's

13:31

still one of the best 35 about to

13:33

turn 36 year olds of all

13:36

time I mean really, you know, he's certainly in

13:38

the top ten of guys at that age

13:40

level right now But the reality is I just

13:42

don't think he has quite the same Verb

13:45

on the offensive end to be that one-man

13:47

offense And I don't he's to me not

13:49

as good of a playmaker either Like his

13:51

playmaking is kind of falling down like he

13:53

I don't think he's been as good as

13:55

a pick and roll threat as an assist

13:57

guy You know, the gravity is still there,

13:59

but it's You don't see quite as many

14:01

just like crazy dunks happening because of Steph

14:03

Curry's gravity as maybe you did in the

14:05

past Where guys are just being left wide

14:07

open. Maybe that's the league adjusting whatever it

14:09

is So I think that I'm just not

14:11

as much of a believer in stuff Like

14:13

I just think physically he can't quite do

14:15

it at the same level I thought that

14:17

he really struggled in the Lakers series last

14:19

year and probably put a rim protector on

14:21

the floor Like he's not being able to

14:23

do much and I think Shay is like

14:25

pretty darn close on stop light I see

14:27

what you say about the free throw attempts.

14:29

Maybe that that falls off But even if it does

14:32

he still is probably the best offensive player at this

14:34

position and that's not gonna hurt the defense either I

14:36

mean if you look at overall EP,

14:38

I like he's just I get it Like he

14:40

hasn't you know won finals MVP and four championships

14:42

and all that but I mean it's neat It's

14:45

not only that he hasn't won finals MVP. He

14:47

hasn't had a good playoff series in his career

14:49

That's it. That's a different line here. Well, I

14:51

mean relative to where he was as a player

14:53

I think he was fine and you know his

14:56

first couple years That's the only two playoffs he's

14:58

been in. I remember I remember some significant grassing

15:00

on this podcast about how disappointing he was I

15:02

think that was the first one not the second

15:05

well did defensively in the in the Houston series

15:07

in 2020 That was where I

15:09

wasn't happy. I think he was good in that

15:11

that first series with the clippering of the Warriors

15:13

But that was so long ago. That was so

15:16

long ago Um, no, I mean, it's just like

15:18

even if he drops off a little bit He's

15:20

still I think like clearly the best of these

15:22

guys and that's especially when you throw in the

15:24

defense where pretty much everyone else On

15:27

this list other than maybe deer and pox in

15:29

the top 15 is probably a defensive liability And

15:32

he's like a massive plus like that's really hard

15:34

to get around Even if you think he's gonna

15:36

fall back to the pack of some of these

15:38

guys offensively I think you'd be hard pressed to

15:40

argue he's gonna be like worse than the rest

15:43

of these guys in the playoffs offensively Well, and

15:45

one other thing just to note. I mean Shay

15:47

has been a positive in defensive EPM for years

15:49

This is the first year he's been even close

15:52

to this level So the I mean I think

15:54

he's improved and Shay deserves credit But the idea

15:56

that maybe like I'll just use the EPM as

15:58

a rough proxy here He was

16:01

plus 1.1 last year and then plus 2.5

16:03

this year. Maybe his true level is like

16:05

a plus 1.8 That's still better

16:07

than everyone. But if it's a little bit

16:09

below this he's still the best by far But

16:11

it is a little less value It's

16:13

I completely understand where you're coming from and

16:15

I wouldn't be surprised if a year from

16:18

now I am exactly where you are, but

16:20

I'm I'm gonna wait Yeah, I get that the last

16:22

thing I want to say too is of the guys

16:25

that meet, you know Whatever you want to consider your

16:27

top 15 I would say that

16:29

every single one of them at least in terms of

16:31

mine except for maybe De'Aaron Fox Is

16:33

someone that and maybe you know, I don't know if

16:35

you have De'Jante Murray in your top

16:37

15 is very much towards the bottom of that

16:39

for me But until you get down to like

16:41

a Drew Holly like everyone else is someone who

16:43

the other team can run pick and roll at

16:46

In the playoffs. Yeah, maybe Jamal Marajah like they'll

16:48

go after him, but only because there's nobody else

16:50

um, but and I think we saw for Denver

16:52

last year how powerful that is to not have

16:54

like that guy that you can just go after

16:57

With uh LeBron James Kevin Durant that sort of

16:59

guy and Shay I think they may try to

17:01

go after him like it sounds like that's like

17:03

a little bit of success with that But overall,

17:05

I think you know, he's still gonna be really

17:07

good So just like how powerful I think it's

17:09

gonna be in the playoffs and we'll see, you

17:11

know, okay See is just so young but how

17:14

powerful it'll be in the playoffs If

17:16

to just not have that guy

17:18

that you can just like relentlessly

17:20

attack is pretty massive I would

17:22

say compared to a lillard or uh,

17:24

John Marantz or uh, Trey

17:27

Young or I mean staff obviously so

17:29

I I think that that just for

17:31

team building And I think also if

17:34

Shay needed to just like make standstill threes out

17:36

the ball Like he's not just getting left wide

17:38

open or anything like that either So I think

17:40

he is I have more

17:42

hope for him as being the centerpiece of the

17:45

championship team than most point guards Right, like we've

17:47

noted that there have not really been very many

17:49

point guards At least certainly under 6-5

17:51

who have been the best player on the

17:53

championship team other than Steph and Isaiah Thomas

17:55

is He probably was the best player

17:58

on the Pistons, but they were you know, a big time

18:00

and it helps that Shay is also

18:02

taller than 6'5". You know, I

18:04

think he's right at 6'5". He's listed at

18:06

6'6". Yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, I

18:09

mean, that's, but he's basically shooting guard size, but

18:11

he can play, he plays point guard. You know,

18:13

I think that's really, that's kind of like, he

18:15

is going to be the smallest guy out there

18:17

a lot of times, but he can play point

18:19

guard, he can play shooting guard. Like it's, that

18:22

also adds a lot of value. One other strong

18:24

point in favor of Shay, this is something when

18:26

I got into the rotation data with OKC is

18:28

that, yes, they have a huge differential when

18:30

he's, when he's on the floor. Joe

18:32

DeSalzender and Mark Dagnall, there's their credits. It's

18:35

not like he's playing all of his minutes

18:37

with Chet Holmgren. I mean, they generally play

18:39

four spacing at the five with the other

18:41

fives, but he often anchors those units. And

18:43

that's a really important difference between him and

18:45

some other point guards where his role

18:48

is not just like best, best surrounding talent.

18:50

It's also to shore up their weaker mixed

18:52

lineups. That helps a lot. Yeah.

18:54

I would say the biggest criticism possibly of

18:56

Shay would be like, what does it look

18:58

like if you play, pair him with a

19:01

non-shooting center? What does it look like?

19:03

Exactly. If he has to play,

19:05

you know, a conventional pick and roll style,

19:07

like he hasn't necessarily shown that they've deployed him

19:09

in the best possible way. I mean, I

19:11

think he's a good enough ball handler and passer

19:13

and he also plays slow, which I think

19:15

is really important for playing that more conventional pick

19:17

and roll game with a roll man center.

19:19

I think he would actually be pretty good at

19:22

it. Kind of in the same way that

19:24

Luca is. He's not that level of passer obviously,

19:26

but just because he never turns it over.

19:28

That's another thing of all the guys who

19:30

really do like a significant amount of passing.

19:32

He's right up there with the lowest turnover

19:34

percentage. And certainly when you consider the usage

19:36

that he has, you know, it's incredible how

19:38

little he turns. And particularly when you consider

19:41

how much he drives to him, he's in

19:43

traffic all the time. But

19:45

I think he's not reliant on just like

19:47

the floor being spaced as much because I

19:49

think he can get to his spot. His

19:51

handle's good. He's got that reactive handle. So

19:53

yeah, I'm surprised that we've had this much

19:55

of a disagreement. But again, I think it's

19:57

even more so to me of just the

19:59

decline. of stuff than it

20:01

is. I mean, it's also the

20:04

chase on bleep, but I think the biggest thing is I

20:06

don't see another candidate.

20:08

Like I think I'm guessing I probably have

20:10

a shade in my top five or pretty

20:12

close. I got to really go through it.

20:14

There isn't another player I would consider a

20:16

reasonable candidate for that level. That's completely fair.

20:18

And maybe maybe I will recontextualize this when

20:20

I do top 10 players. I think

20:22

about them a little bit differently. But generally the

20:24

rough positional order stays the same. That's part of

20:27

my theory. Do you have curry number two?

20:29

Or do you have someone else number two? Yeah, I

20:31

do have him number two. I

20:33

have Halliburton in this tier as well.

20:36

Man, I just love American Giants,

20:38

just an amazing clothing company. I was reminded

20:40

again of how much I love it when

20:43

I drove from California to Montana over the

20:45

all-star break. And you know what it's like

20:47

when you're on a long road trip and

20:49

it's cold particularly when it starts off warm

20:52

in the bay and then we get into

20:54

some really cold areas. You're like, well, I

20:56

don't want to wear like my jacket in

20:58

the car, but then I get out to

21:01

fill gas. I'm going to be freezing. But

21:03

the American Giant hoodie was perfect because despite

21:05

being made out of a nice heavy material

21:08

that'll keep you warm, it's not too hot

21:10

as well. So I was able to wear

21:12

it in the car, not be too hot,

21:14

step out of the car and still be

21:16

warm enough when I was filling up gas

21:18

or going into a restaurant or something that

21:20

I didn't feel like I needed my jacket

21:23

even when it was cold outside. These things

21:25

are amazingly durable. I proposed my wife wearing

21:27

an American Giant hoodie in the Grand Canyon

21:29

almost seven years ago. I still own that

21:31

same hoodie. I still wear it constantly. And

21:33

American Giant has since spread out into all

21:35

sorts of other types of

21:37

clothing like their premium Slub Crew Tea,

21:40

the No BS High Rise Pant, the

21:42

Slim Rough Neck Pant featured in Giant

21:44

Magazine issue two. Every American Giant piece

21:46

is made in America and designed to

21:48

last no exceptions. And it provides year

21:51

round comfort. So find a closet staple

21:53

for every part of your spring days

21:55

that american-giant.com and get 20% off your

21:57

first order when you you

22:00

use that for their code CAPSPACE at checkout. You

22:02

remember we talk about CAPSPACE all the time here

22:04

in the program. That's 20% off your first order

22:06

at american-giants.com. Don't forget that CAPSPACE code to let

22:09

them know you came from us. Anyone

22:11

who's seen our YouTube videos knows that

22:13

I don't wear formal stuff all the

22:15

time. So when it's time to dress

22:17

up rather than dress down, I highly

22:19

recommend Inochino. They were the official outfitter

22:21

of my wedding. I got my tux

22:24

from there, all my groomsmen, got their

22:26

sport jackets from there as well. I

22:28

felt really good about having them be

22:30

the outfitter of my wedding because all

22:32

my groomsmen were gonna get stuff that

22:34

they could continue to wear that fit

22:36

them perfectly because when you go somewhere

22:38

else, you're not gonna get something that's

22:40

made European

23:04

wools, linen, cottons, tons of colors, tons

23:06

of patterns you can customize. Things like

23:08

the lapel, the vents, the pockets, and

23:11

you'll get a piece that is personalized

23:13

for you in fit and style. Level

23:15

up your game with Indochino. Go to

23:18

indochino.com. Use the code CAPSPACE. These

23:20

are our CAPSPACE. We talk all the time here on

23:22

the program. You get 10% off any purchase of $399

23:24

or more. That's

23:27

10% off at Indochino, I-N-D-O-C-H-I-N-O,

23:29

indochino.com. And don't forget that CAPSPACE code to

23:31

let them know that you came from us.

23:35

The big difficulty for me with Hal Burton

23:38

was simply trying to figure out, are we

23:40

grading him on the player that he was

23:42

before or after the hamstring injury? And particularly

23:44

he's like massively struggled from three since then.

23:46

But when you consider the way he shot

23:48

the ball, the entire rest of his career

23:51

is like a 40% three point shooter. I'm

23:53

not a believer that all of a sudden

23:55

he's a 26% three point shooter. I think

23:57

that hamstring just has to get right. that

24:00

it ever has. The 65 game rule

24:02

seems like it kind of fucked him

24:04

on that although hopefully he'll at least

24:06

get his extra whatever it's going to

24:08

be eight million dollars a year for

24:10

40 million dollars. And so I really

24:12

understand why he has decided to play

24:14

it this way. Still easily the best

24:17

passer at this position when you look

24:19

at the playmaking usage. It is completely

24:21

insane. 25.6 percent that

24:23

is by far the highest in the league. 12.5 assists

24:25

for 36. Still second at this position

24:30

in terms of his team's on court offensive rating.

24:32

121.5 that has really dropped of course since

24:35

coming back from the hamstring injury. It was like a

24:38

125 before that. The other personnel has kind of changed

24:40

a little bit too. I do think

24:42

he's more reliant on having a great spacing

24:44

than some. But I mean this guy was

24:47

playing like prime Steve Nash early in this

24:49

season. He's only 24. I

24:52

still think even in his diminished state he's

24:54

a fantastic passer. But if we allowed him

24:56

to get right and started a season I

24:58

think he was you know probably a top

25:00

five offensive force in basketball. And the way he

25:03

was playing he was playing like maybe the best

25:05

offensive player in basketball before the end. He was

25:07

and I simultaneously like I

25:09

was like you it didn't have Hal Burton in

25:11

the same tier as Gilda Salgander in part because

25:14

of the defensive difference and in part because they

25:16

you know like Hal Burton didn't end up getting

25:18

a full season. And there are reasons why that

25:20

could very well be the case. The decision that

25:23

I ended up being more torn with there was

25:25

how to you know I talked about the agent

25:27

guard was how to deal with Damien Lillard where

25:29

Lillard again clearly below his

25:32

standard in a couple of key ways

25:34

including the three-pointer being below what it

25:36

was pre like what I'd say pre

25:38

like the injury because it's I mean

25:40

he's had such a weird run of

25:42

it. So Lillard was the

25:44

what injury you talk about the core muscle injury

25:46

in 21. So Lillard before

25:48

that he was firing you know 39 40 percent

25:50

on threes on 10 attempts per 36. And

25:54

this year he's at 8.6 on or he's at 8.6 and

25:56

36. Well wasn't he he was ridiculous

26:00

last year though wasn't he? 37 percent. I

26:02

mean the attempt rate was high but the

26:04

percentage wasn't what it was before. Yeah.

26:07

And I mean he's still and now

26:09

he's below for the for the first

26:11

full year in a while he's below

26:14

50 percent on twos which is

26:16

kind of that can be a

26:18

sign of athletic decline. His pre-throw

26:20

attempt rate is also down from

26:22

last year and the Lillard versus

26:25

Halliburton question is also fascinating because

26:27

you don't get the the defensive

26:29

tiebreaker necessarily because Lillard's actively bad

26:31

on that end. Yeah I would

26:33

probably rather have Halliburton than Lillard.

26:35

You know I had Halliburton in

26:37

a tier above Lillard with stuff

26:39

but Halliburton was number three stuff

26:41

was number two for me. And

26:43

we haven't seen Halliburton in the

26:46

playoffs at all. Hopefully we'll

26:48

get a chance to see that this year

26:50

but again he may not be totally healthy.

26:52

You do wonder how he would deal with

26:54

a really athletic playoff defense that's locked in

26:56

on him extremely well. You know I don't

26:58

think he played all that great in that

27:00

in-season tournament final against the Lakers but of

27:02

course he went up against the Celtics and

27:04

he torched them before that but in season

27:06

tournament it's not the playoffs in terms of

27:08

your preparation even though it was given a

27:10

bit more emphasis this year. Again this just

27:12

goes back to not being

27:14

a massive believer in the group below him.

27:16

If Damian Lillard was just playing the way

27:18

he played last year he would be above

27:20

tiresal but I think he's just looked kind

27:23

of slowed down there. It hasn't been a

27:25

specific injury to point to. You know there's

27:27

been ankles. He just hasn't been kind of

27:29

nagging stuff like that but he just hasn't looked

27:31

as explosive to me in terms of getting by

27:33

guys. He's playing with a pretty darn space floor.

27:35

You noted the two-point decline from 57% to below

27:38

50. Now that 57% last year was basically as

27:42

good as it ever got for him in his career

27:44

by quite a bit so you should have expected some

27:47

regression. He just hasn't been as good as a driver

27:49

but he does just have more

27:51

of a track record. I think his playoff

27:53

tracker is probably more mixed than some people

27:55

remember but I do think that he's what

27:58

he does as shooting the ball off. the

28:00

pick and roll. Like he's starting to get more chemistry

28:02

with Giannis as well. Like that is just something that

28:04

schematically is just incredibly hard to deal with. So I

28:07

did have him at the top of this next group.

28:09

You know, he's been one of the better clutch players

28:11

in the league for a while. Buck's been a good

28:13

clutch team this year. So I, but

28:15

I think just Halliburton to me, like I don't

28:18

know if Damien Lillard is like your number one

28:20

best offensive player anymore. Now he shoots it really

28:22

well. He can play off the ball just fine,

28:24

but Halliburton is like just that crazy engine to

28:27

me. So that's why I had him in a

28:29

different group than Lillard. What I ended up

28:31

doing was Halliburton in his own tier, Lillard

28:33

in his own tier, and then moving down

28:35

just because I, I think in

28:37

some ways of Halliburton, even with the lack of

28:39

playoff resume as a, they're not the same player,

28:41

but it's kind of a better version. Also Lillard,

28:43

his game is extremely predicated on foul drawing at

28:45

this point in his career too, which is notable.

28:47

We'll see where that goes in the Buck's post-season

28:50

series. And like you, part of the reason why

28:52

I have Lillard in a tier above the rest

28:54

of them is the, well, I don't have Lillard

28:56

in a tier above the rest of them. No,

28:58

why I do, why I'm explaining why I do.

29:00

Well, you said like me. So I, oh,

29:02

sorry. But my, my issue is, is a

29:04

little bit of misgivings with the rest of

29:07

the players in the next group and

29:09

they're all, they're all very good, but can they

29:11

be, you know, the guy, the old term I

29:13

used was the him alone test. And it's like,

29:16

some of them can, but I worry about them

29:18

in the playoffs. Some of them will have to

29:20

see. And so like I, maybe I'll move Lillard

29:22

into that group. I still haven't, I'm not set

29:24

on it. As I said, I'm less sure on

29:27

point guard than any other spot, but let's start

29:29

talking about that next group. Yeah. So I

29:31

had Lillard at the top of it,

29:33

my tier three, and I included three

29:35

more men along with him. Jillian Brunson

29:37

at number five, Jamal Murray at number

29:40

six and John Marant. You remember him,

29:42

at number seven. I think

29:44

some people might be saying, you

29:46

know, I think Brunson probably you

29:48

can argue has played the best

29:51

of these guys this season. I

29:53

do have some concerns about his

29:55

style of play where he really,

29:58

really pounds the ball. It's

30:00

a perfect fit on the Knicks because that's just what

30:02

they desperately need him to do. But I

30:04

don't think he's that great of a passer. I don't

30:06

think he puts enough pressure on the rim to where

30:09

he opens up a ton of passing lines. Admittedly, he's

30:11

playing on a team that doesn't have a lot of

30:13

spacing, but he was never really an amazing passer with

30:15

the Mavs either. So I do think like the way

30:17

that he shot the ball from three this year certainly

30:20

has helped, but a lot of those are off the

30:22

dribble. Amazing 3.2 in performance by him. 6.8 for 36,

30:24

40.2% from downtown. Although he started

30:29

the year, you know, the first two months he was

30:31

at 47%. So that's kind of been waning.

30:33

I would guess that he's probably going to

30:35

be below 40% in a season that started

30:37

today as we're talking about. And

30:39

the Knicks offensive numbers with him in the 4.1.20 off 104.5.

30:41

Part of that is not having a

30:45

backup, but part of that is that he's really

30:47

been able to lift them without a ton of

30:49

supporting talent around him. But he's another guy I'd

30:52

like to see him do it in the playoffs.

30:54

This is kind of his first year at this

30:56

level. And I do just wonder about his fit

30:58

on a different kind of team than

31:00

where the Knicks and Tom Thibodeau too, like loves

31:03

doing this as a point guard, just giving the

31:05

ball absolutely as much as they possibly can. I

31:07

have Brunson at number five as well. And I

31:09

have some more misgivings on like where, where it's

31:11

going to look in the postseason and what he

31:13

would do in a different system. But I mean,

31:15

he has been incredible. I mean, for those who

31:18

remember, I had him fifth in the MVP the

31:20

last time we did that. And that isn't the

31:22

same as positional rankings, not, not in any way,

31:24

shape or form. And I have

31:26

John Marant here as well. It's projecting kind

31:28

of what he was pre, pre absence,

31:30

pre injury. And I mean, that this is the

31:32

level, the level of player that he was. And

31:35

I worry a little bit about how Jaws game is

31:37

going to age because he takes so many physical risks.

31:40

And I mean, I thought just, you know, watching

31:42

him this year, he looked like the same guy,

31:44

but then he only made it for through nine

31:46

games. And, and I only factor in the off

31:48

court. I do factor in a little bit because

31:50

availability does matter. But I mean, do you think

31:53

that this is going to recur or anything like

31:55

that. And that ties in with so there, there's

31:57

one player that I have in this group that

31:59

you don't. and I have one player

32:01

out of this group. And let's start actually

32:03

with the guy that you have in, and

32:05

that's Jamal Murray. And Jamal Murray gets the

32:08

ecosystem argument for him, is what moves him

32:10

down. And I will say he's not even

32:12

in my next tier. And the reason for

32:14

that is there are very few point guards

32:17

who get the latitude to get the role

32:19

that he does, where he is clearly not

32:21

the best player on his offense. He is

32:23

clearly not the reason why his team

32:26

works, his role within it

32:28

is limited. And then you get into,

32:30

yes, there are reasons why, from

32:33

Denver's perspective, that the non-Yokich minutes

32:35

don't work, that they never really

32:37

have gotten that right. If Jamal

32:40

Murray could, like if

32:42

he could be a more traditional point

32:45

guard, they have a 105-8 offensive rating

32:47

when Jamal Murray is on the floor

32:49

and Nikhil Yokich is off. That

32:51

is horrendous. That is fifth percentile,

32:53

five. And even if you wanna

32:55

say, Yokich is the system, Yokich is the

32:58

reason it works, and they've never had a

33:00

mini-Yokich or anything like that, if you put

33:02

almost any other point guard on this list

33:04

in the top 15, in that circumstance, it

33:07

wouldn't consistently fail the way it has consistently

33:09

failed for Jamal Murray. So I have to

33:11

grade him down for that, because if we're

33:13

putting him on an average team, he's gonna

33:16

be the best offensive player. Yeah, I certainly,

33:18

I thought that was probably gonna be your

33:20

argument for having him lower. So

33:23

let me start with a positive, obviously

33:25

the way he plays the two-man game

33:27

with Yokich is awesome. The way that

33:30

he's able to move off the ball,

33:32

that's not completely irreplicable. There

33:34

are other passing centers that you could pair

33:36

him with where it might look the same

33:38

with that two-man game. His off-ball movement is

33:41

maybe the best at this position outside of

33:43

stuff. That definitely matters. His

33:45

three-point shooting wasn't amazing early in his career,

33:47

but he's really settled in. High

33:50

30s, low 40s, about six attempts for 36.

33:53

So I'm a believer in that. I think that's something on

33:55

a different team that he could maybe ramp up

33:57

a little bit more. One of the best isolation

33:59

scores. this position and yeah if

34:01

he is your worst defender then you're in

34:04

pretty good shape I would say because

34:06

he's 6'5 he's got some pretty decent strength but

34:08

he's not gonna he'll at least hold up for

34:11

like a couple of dribbles in the post before

34:13

you got to send the help you're

34:15

not gonna just run pick and roll

34:18

at him and he's just complete meat

34:20

as soon as he switches on to

34:22

your star scoring wing. So really the

34:24

only issue that you have is these

34:26

numbers without Yokich on the floor and

34:28

I think I take those seriously

34:31

that maybe is why he's not at

34:33

the top of this group but I

34:35

really I like his ability to fit

34:37

in as your second best offensive player

34:39

really well even if it's not necessarily

34:42

Nikola Yokich maybe it's next to somebody

34:44

else because his ability to shoot off

34:46

the ball and defend reasonably well and

34:48

then I do think there's some context

34:50

those numbers that you know he's playing

34:53

with Azik Najee, D'Andre Jordan, a lot

34:55

of the time Christian Brown, Peyton

34:58

Watson there's just no shooting whatsoever

35:00

on these groups that he's playing with in

35:02

the second unit a lot of time it's

35:04

also a small sample yeah I think if

35:07

you just well it's small sample but it's

35:09

been pretty persistent over the years like even

35:11

if it has been it's just you know

35:13

we saw this a lot with Kyrie Irving

35:15

too when he played with Lebron that was

35:17

like a big reason to not be a

35:19

believer in Kyrie. I actually think that Jamal

35:22

Murray and Kyrie have a lot of similarities

35:24

in the way that they play as

35:26

with their isolation ability scoring like Kyrie's

35:28

really worked on his off ball game so

35:31

yeah you know I'm not sure that Jamal Murray

35:33

is like your number one engine but I think

35:35

he makes a better number two than a lot

35:37

of these guys and I would like to see

35:39

him as like really the guy in a real

35:42

spread pick and roll system which we just haven't

35:44

ever seen that like these backup units have been

35:46

awful that he's played with like it's not even

35:48

like a lot of times they're letting him play

35:50

with Aaron Gordon and Michael Borden Jr. and I

35:53

think it's also worth noting that when Nicole Jokic

35:55

was off the floor in the playoffs and they

35:57

went to some real lineups around him that he

35:59

was was able to keep those groups. Yeah,

36:01

it was. And so, yeah, I think it's,

36:05

yeah, it's a genuine concern for me. But

36:07

the value of as a number two is

36:09

really fascinating. And at point guard, that conversation

36:11

is really different than it like the three

36:14

words, just how everything scoots around. But it's,

36:16

it's definitely worthwhile one nice smile when you

36:18

brought up Kyrie, because that's the player that

36:20

I have in that you don't hear. And

36:22

Irving, he is filling a different, you know,

36:24

he's been this player before, but the, you

36:26

know, in many ways, the second best offensive

36:29

player on a really, really good offense, but

36:31

Irving has carried the units when he

36:33

has been on and Luca has been

36:35

off overall, like he has done really,

36:37

really well there. Irving is above positional

36:39

average as an efficient scorer. He has

36:41

a large role within the Mavericks offense,

36:43

even though he plays with one

36:45

of the most heliocentric players in the entire

36:47

league. And he of course, can

36:50

have some huge clutch performances and everything else.

36:52

So for me, like Kyrie is he, I

36:54

feel better about him, not only as a

36:56

number one, partially as a number one, but

36:59

especially as a number two, then somebody like

37:01

Trey Young, who I have in the next

37:03

year down. Yeah, I think it was ultimately

37:05

health of why I didn't move Kyrie up.

37:08

And also, it's been, are

37:10

we going to say that like the crazy stuff

37:12

is like totally over with him? Oh, hell no.

37:14

It's always, it's always a part of the picture. But,

37:17

but it has been incredible in Dallas. And

37:19

I think there are some who predicted that,

37:21

you know, from like a leadership standpoint, everybody

37:23

has glowing reports about him. And

37:25

some were like, Oh, well, he got paid. So

37:27

now he's not gonna, he's not gonna be living

37:29

up to his part of the bargain there. But

37:31

so I don't know, and he's alluded

37:34

to learning some lessons and stuff like that too.

37:36

So I don't know. I mean, I'm not gonna

37:38

predict that it's going to happen, but I think

37:40

there's a percentage chance. I mean, John Morant is

37:42

kind of the same thing. I'm, I certainly hope

37:44

that both of them are past the off

37:46

court issues that they've had, but they still kind of

37:48

stick out there. Yeah, I think ultimately just at age

37:50

31, pretty extensive injury

37:52

history. That's maybe why I bumped

37:55

Kyrie down a little bit. I

37:57

think his Nets teams, he really

37:59

was. I know the

38:01

numbers with him on and Luca

38:03

off this year are good offensively,

38:05

but when you saw KD miss

38:07

time for those Nets teams, when

38:09

Kyrie was the only guy, they

38:11

would go on massive losing jags.

38:15

I think Kyrie's defense

38:17

is, I don't think his

38:20

effort level is pathetic, but he's not particularly

38:22

a plus at this position either. He's not,

38:24

I think that he doesn't get attacked maybe

38:26

just because everyone has so much respect for

38:28

his game. Like he's sort of like the

38:30

players player that they just almost don't

38:32

want to go after him because they

38:34

just, I think that could be more

38:36

successful. But he's got more size and athleticism than some

38:38

of these guys, like a Marantz or a Trae Young

38:41

or something. So I could understand

38:43

having him above here. I think it was just

38:45

ultimately health as the reason that I didn't. So

38:48

that rounds out your, you're at what,

38:50

number eight right there with Kyrie? I

38:53

have, I have tech. I'm ending this

38:55

tier with John Moran at seven. So

38:57

I'm okay. So Kyrie is above Moran. Kyrie

39:00

is at six, but you know, same thing. All right.

39:02

And you didn't have Murray. You had Murray, you said

39:04

two tiers down for me? Yes. But

39:06

what is a very small tier five and

39:08

that tier five is just two guys. It's

39:10

Trae Young and Jiren Fox. And

39:12

for Trae, the argument. You have Murray below

39:14

Fox and Trae Young. I do. Yeah.

39:17

That I can't, I can't abide that. I mean,

39:19

I can abide it. It's not, we're

39:21

talking about point guard rankings here, but

39:23

I, I, I really strongly disagree with

39:26

that for just because those, those guys

39:28

to me just have not been the

39:30

level of playoff performers. Like, I mean,

39:32

if you put those guys into Jamal Murray's

39:34

place, I think the Nuggets are just like

39:36

so much worse of a team. Yeah, but

39:39

that's, I don't think that's, I don't think

39:41

that's remotely fair context for every, Jamal Murray

39:43

has the best offensive player in the league

39:45

on his team and is able to be,

39:47

he's, he's a great worst defensive player. But

39:50

it's like, if you had, if you had

39:52

other, you put other players in that circumstance,

39:54

like, I mean, Jokic, Jokic is the, is

39:56

the exception to all this type of stuff.

39:58

And he makes. these things easier and

40:01

you talked about the two man game with

40:03

Jamal Murray and Jokic being so good. Well,

40:05

the other guys haven't gotten this opportunity. You

40:07

know, like Trey Young's been playing with Clickapella

40:09

and Onyeko kongwoo and various different centers over

40:11

the years. I'm like, you're in Fox place

40:13

with the bonus, but the bonus is to

40:15

Jokic. We know that for sure. And I

40:18

think that I'm, you know, this is putting

40:20

a player on 30 teams and

40:22

the context of the one is important. But

40:25

if if a player is in the single

40:27

most favorable context for them as a player,

40:29

then I until they prove it in another

40:31

context, I am going to hold that against

40:33

them. I just think you're so much more

40:35

likely to win a championship with Jamal Murray

40:37

on your team versus Trey Young because of

40:39

Trey Young's just incredible defensive concerns and also

40:42

the way that he like kind of has

40:44

to dominate. But if Jamal

40:46

Murray is your best offensive player, how are you going

40:48

to have a good enough seed in the playoffs to

40:51

actually but you don't have he doesn't I mean, we're

40:53

talking about, you know, guys who are not in the

40:55

top five at their position. So when you're talking about

40:57

a guy who's not in the top five of their

40:59

position, if you're going to win a championship,

41:01

you need to have someone who's better. And

41:03

so that's that's what I'm thinking about it.

41:06

Like I value those high-end outcomes more and

41:08

I also think that Jamal Murray's game is

41:10

much more resilient than Trey Young's in the

41:12

playoff because Trey is reliant on foul drawing

41:14

away that Murray isn't Murray has just is

41:17

able to create his own offense. I think

41:19

better than Trey Young. So that's why I

41:21

think it to me, it's like very clear

41:23

that Jamal Murray should be above Trey Young

41:25

Fox. Maybe it's a little bit different

41:27

like he's he's he's someone we'll have to discuss in

41:30

greater detail. So I think there's some very interesting

41:32

arguments for and against him. But yeah, to me,

41:34

I think that just like you're you're much more

41:36

likely to win a championship with Murray than Trey

41:38

Young. Now, if we're talking about at

41:41

like the top one or two at your position

41:43

where you're truly expecting that this guy is going

41:45

to be the best player on your team and

41:47

you're going to go win a championship with that

41:49

guy as your best player, then, you know, I

41:51

think that your argument holds water. But I think

41:54

this far down the table, you have to it's

41:56

more about how you fit in as the number

41:58

two guy than how you are. as the

42:00

number one guy because you're just not, if you're the best

42:02

player, like you're just, you're gonna end up where the Trae

42:04

Young Hawks have ended up these last few years. It's

42:07

a philosophical difference between us and that's

42:10

completely fine. Man, it is crazy to

42:12

think that I've been working with Helix

42:14

Sleep since 2015. And

42:17

I think that's because my story with

42:19

them seems to really resonate with

42:21

listeners. If you've never heard it

42:23

before, that was kind of the

42:25

beginning of the direct-to-consumer boom and

42:28

there was another very prominent mattress

42:30

company at that time that was trying

42:32

to convince you that mattresses were one

42:34

size fits all. They found the one

42:36

formula, the one mattress that was gonna

42:38

work for everyone. My then girlfriend, now

42:40

wife, and I ordered that mattress. We

42:42

ended up having to return it because,

42:44

hey, guess what? Not everyone is the

42:47

same. And then she did some more

42:49

research and found Helix Sleep. We took

42:51

their sleep quiz and we found a

42:53

mattress that actually worked for us and

42:55

our body types. Now Helix offers 20

42:58

unique mattresses. Every sleeps differently

43:00

and Helix Mattresses are designed for specific

43:02

sleep positions and field preferences, hot or

43:04

cold, side sleeper, back sleeper. So take

43:07

that Helix Sleep quiz, find your perfect

43:09

mattress in under two minutes and it's

43:11

shipped straight to your door, free of

43:13

charge. It's no risk because you really

43:15

need to sleep on the mattress in

43:17

your own home. You're gonna be like,

43:19

well, how should I order this if

43:21

I can't sleep? Yeah, you're not gonna

43:24

learn anything by going to the mattress

43:26

store and sleeping on the mattress where,

43:28

do I take my shoes off? Do

43:30

I leave my shoes on? But then my feet

43:32

kind of hang off the bed because I don't

43:34

wanna put my shoes on the bed. And is

43:37

it weird that I'm laying here for more than

43:39

30 seconds? You can't tell anything under those circumstances.

43:41

You might as well just order it, get it

43:43

sent to your house, get that 100 night trial.

43:45

They're 10 to 15 year warranty depending on the

43:47

model. And there's never been a better time to

43:50

try a Helix Sleep mattress because they are offering

43:52

20% off all mattress orders and

43:55

two free pillows for our listeners

43:57

at helixsleep.com/cap faith, easier slash cap...

43:59

we talk about all the time here on

44:01

the program that's helixsleep.com/capspace. This is their best offer

44:04

yet. I can attest to that since I've been

44:06

working with them for nine years and it won't

44:08

last long with Helix. Better sleep starts now. Don't

44:10

forget that slash capspace URL to let them know

44:12

that you came from us. Timmy

44:18

everybody. Great job. Next

44:20

up for our fifth grade class

44:22

recital we have Samantha. Ten

44:25

times better performance can make a big

44:28

difference. Castrol Edge motor oil gives your

44:30

engine ten times better high temperature performance

44:32

so you can unlock maximum performance with

44:35

every drive. Castrol Edge better oil for

44:37

maximum performance. Train

44:40

based on sequence 3 H test versus API

44:43

SP plus limits. Let's

44:45

talk about Fox because his shooting this year

44:47

was very encouraging to start the season. He's

44:49

been way off recently. You know there was

44:51

a point at which he was taking like

44:53

over 8 for 36. He was hitting 40%.

44:55

You didn't think that was gonna continue particularly

44:57

because he does that 72% from the foul

45:01

line and his free throw drawing is not

45:03

as impressive as it had been. I don't

45:05

know if he's wearing down but I just

45:07

I've noticed him kind of struggling to get

45:10

separation a little bit more. You know he

45:12

had that that clutch player of the year

45:14

season a year ago where and I felt

45:16

like he could just get separation from that

45:18

mid ranger or whatever he wanted to and

45:20

that that that just hasn't looked quite as

45:23

good. I'm not I think he's probably maybe

45:25

a little bit worse as a passer. I

45:27

haven't seen him quite like the Kings transition

45:29

has been quite as devastating. I think he

45:31

hasn't been quite as much of an engine

45:33

there and he's still the best player on

45:35

a team that's looking like they're gonna make

45:37

the playoffs or at least be seeded to

45:39

make the playoffs and I think

45:42

his defense is really really improved this year a

45:44

lot like where he is actually like a positive

45:46

there when he locks in and even sometimes for

45:48

lack of a better option just has to guard

45:50

the best threat on the other team at the

45:52

one and his overall efficiency at least individually

45:55

hasn't been amazing but he's been

45:57

you know he's an irreplaceable player

45:59

on the the Kings offense. So I'm

46:01

just kind of struggling with where he should

46:03

be because I don't love that he's got

46:05

a true shooting below the positional average. It's

46:07

not great. And this would have been a

46:10

much easier ranking for him if it was

46:12

earlier in the season when not only was

46:14

he doing great, but he was clearly the

46:16

best player on the Kings offense and the

46:18

Kings offense was a little bit stronger than

46:20

it is right now. But for

46:22

me, the kind of the reason that he's here and

46:24

above this next group and part is I'm not a

46:27

huge believer in the next group. And it's also because

46:29

I think he's a better defender. You

46:32

brought up how he's improved. Not that steals

46:34

are everything, going back to Russ Westbrook and everything else.

46:36

1.9 steals per 36 is actually really high on the

46:40

list. It's not that far from Shay in

46:42

terms of rate. It's minutes played and everything

46:45

else that makes some of that difference per

46:47

game and everything like that. And Fox, that

46:50

may overstate it a little bit. I think

46:52

of Gil just Alexander as a meaningfully better

46:54

defender than Fox, but he can do some

46:56

of that point of attack stuff. He can

46:58

be a transition engine and he, it

47:00

also has from what I recall, I didn't pull

47:02

the set specifically for this. Like it's gone reasonably

47:05

well when he's been on the floor without Sabonis

47:07

and the team can have an identity. And so

47:09

for me with, with Fox and Trey here, it's

47:12

like, well, we know generally speaking what a, what

47:14

a Trey young team is going to look like

47:16

that he's going to have a huge role. They're

47:18

going to have a successful offense, even if this

47:20

year's margins are not as ridiculous as they have

47:22

been in prior years, but he is significantly better

47:24

defensively. So for me, both of those guys are,

47:27

they could be the best player on a pretty good

47:29

team, probably not the best player on a great team unless

47:31

they had an equal number two, but

47:34

they could fit in. And if you could,

47:36

you know, you're reporting them on a random

47:38

team, then they wouldn't mesh. They would mesh

47:40

with other good players and could make something

47:42

work in a different, in a variety of

47:44

styles, maybe more for Fox, but Trey young

47:46

is Trey young. So these are

47:48

my concerns about Fox. I'm concerned even though

47:50

his three point shooting has dropped off that

47:52

at 37% this year, that that may not

47:54

even be real at 37% and that that's

47:56

kind of propping

47:59

him up. similar levels

48:01

of efficiency as what he

48:03

had in the past and even

48:05

he's also three percentage points below the

48:07

true shooting mark that he established last

48:09

year and that's shooting 37%

48:11

from three this year and he was at 32% last year. So

48:15

I mean some of these athletic markers

48:17

are not particularly kind to him. 41

48:20

dunks last year, 19 this year he

48:22

played 73 games last year, 60 this

48:24

year, 80% at the rim

48:27

last year, 70% this year and

48:29

also has declined from 17 to 14% of his shots being

48:32

taken at the rim. Flutter range was

48:34

awesome, 57% last year, still really really

48:37

good at 55% this year but

48:40

then the actual jump shots

48:42

have really declined for him as well. He

48:44

was at 49%, 10 to

48:46

16, that's 44 this year and he was taking

48:48

more jumpers from outside of 15 feet which I

48:50

think is a really important shot for him particularly

48:53

the pick and roll. He was making those at

48:55

44%, that now he's taking

48:57

very few of those and he's only making

48:59

33% of those this year. So I just

49:01

don't like as I think about it more

49:03

like as a pick and roll threat, I

49:05

just don't think he's been quite as good.

49:07

I don't think he's been quite as devastating

49:09

in transition and he's relied on what I

49:11

would say increased his percentage of shots from

49:13

three to from 27.6% to 36% but he's

49:15

kind of taken

49:19

away from shots more closer to the rim

49:21

to get to that and so if his

49:23

three-point shooting falls off and when you consider

49:26

the free throw shooting, I kind of expect

49:28

that. Yeah, I don't

49:30

know. It's a concern and

49:32

Fox at age 26, I think

49:35

back to the old Kevin Pelton thing which

49:37

is that players' athleticism declines from when they

49:39

come into the league and it's can you

49:41

make up the skill stuff and with Fox

49:43

it is possible, I hope it doesn't happen,

49:45

that his prime is a little earlier for

49:47

this reason. If the skill development doesn't really

49:49

get there if the shot never quite does.

49:51

So yeah, I consider having Fox a tear

49:53

down and just kind of moving things around

49:55

a little bit but I end up just

49:57

liking him a little bit. better,

50:00

you know, like it can work, but maybe

50:02

part of, maybe I should move

50:04

them down. Well, I'll say one more

50:06

thing here in his defense that I do

50:08

think that the context for the Kings a

50:10

little bit different this year, you know, they

50:13

haven't been going with some of the backup

50:15

units that he would play with when he

50:17

staggered with Seponis had more shooting than they

50:19

do this year. Rather, they're playing Trey Lyles

50:21

at center for a lot of last year

50:23

and Keegan Murray, Kevin Herder, like those guys

50:25

haven't shot it as well. I think teams

50:27

been able to load up in the paint

50:29

a little bit more to un-Fox, but I

50:31

think, you know, a lot of this comes

50:33

back to when both subjectively hasn't been able

50:35

to get the same separation off the dribble.

50:38

And then also you see some

50:40

of those declines in terms of getting to the

50:42

basket. That's where I kind of, I

50:44

thought I was going to have him in this group

50:46

too, but I think I probably do need to move

50:48

him below Kyrie at this

50:50

point because I, it's kind of on the same idea

50:53

with, I was talking about Trey Young and Jamal Murray.

50:55

I think you'd say the same thing with Kyrie and

50:57

Fox. So I think I am going to actually move

51:00

Fox down Kyrie up and let me see

51:02

if I can, and I'm just kind of

51:04

torn. Do I want to put Kyrie in

51:06

the same group as like Bronson and Murray

51:08

and Morance? See if you convinced me on

51:10

that. I just wonder like about Kyrie as

51:12

like your number two player. Yeah. All right.

51:14

I think I will do that. I'm going

51:16

to move Kyrie up. Why not? I'm going

51:18

to trust him. That never went wrong for

51:20

anybody, right? Ever, ever. Let's get into some

51:22

of this next group. And again,

51:25

it's some, some young guys who are moving up

51:27

and then I'm torn. I may be moving an

51:29

old guy down further down. And so the

51:31

next two I want to discuss

51:33

are Tyrese Maxie and Darius

51:35

Garland. And both of them have unusual

51:37

roles that are kind of hard to

51:39

reconcile. So Tyrese Maxie. Did we talk

51:42

about Trey enough yet? Oh, we can

51:44

talk about him more. I had him

51:47

as of now, I have he and Fox

51:49

is my tier four at number nine, number

51:51

10. And yeah, I

51:53

think that like ultimately I think

51:55

as an offensive engine, Trey Young,

51:58

probably the second best play. maker

52:00

at this position or second best

52:02

passer at this position behind Tyreese.

52:04

And we talked about how his

52:06

shooting is still like a pretty

52:08

massive weapon. 8.8 threes

52:10

for 36, 37% shooting him

52:12

off the dribble pretty well. I think that's pretty close

52:14

to real. You know, I know his, his numbers have

52:16

gone up and down. I think one

52:19

thing that's a little disturbing is, you know,

52:21

he's not like that top five offense by

52:23

himself this year. You know, the, their numbers,

52:25

offensive numbers with him on the floor, 116

52:28

offensive rating is quite pedestrian in comparison

52:30

to what it's been before. And he's tried

52:33

a little bit more on defense, but still

52:35

is just going to get attacked at the

52:37

end of every game pretty remorselessly. But I

52:39

do think that the rest of these guys

52:41

that we're going to get to like this

52:44

maxi being one of them as those guys

52:46

aren't as compelling a number two's as like

52:48

an Irving or a Murray. And so I

52:50

think I kind of like Trey young's number

52:52

one stylings better than some of the guys

52:55

that we're about to talk about. Cause I

52:57

don't see even some of these other guys

52:59

that's like quite good enough. Number two's.

53:01

So I'll go with the established number one

53:03

who can get you into the playoffs on

53:05

the offensive end. Exactly. So I have Trey

53:07

right now I have an eighth by himself.

53:10

So I put Fox below and part of it

53:12

is the old him alone test where if you

53:14

put Trey young on your team, you're seeing, they

53:16

might not have a top five offense anymore, but

53:18

they'll have a good one. And he can, you

53:21

know, you can, we've seen Luca play around with

53:23

different players and you could have a more limited

53:25

defensive center and he can find that guy is

53:27

unbelievable at finding players around the basket, but also

53:29

theoretically if Trey played with even more of a

53:31

space for, I think it could work reasonably well.

53:33

And yeah, I think the problem with him too

53:36

is just that like, I just don't fear him

53:38

that much as a two point score. No, no.

53:40

And that's, that's kind of be the basis in

53:42

a lot of ways. And like

53:44

some would say, well, wow, you have Terry's

53:46

Halbert and Trey young so far apart, but

53:49

it's, it's in part because Halbert and I

53:51

think that his game is going to be

53:53

more durable than Trey's. Also, he has better

53:56

positional size and in part because the, like

53:58

the machine that he created when he was

54:00

healthy, it was just better than what Trae Young has done

54:02

the last year or two. Well, and people love playing with

54:04

Tyrese Albert and they don't like playing with Trae. That helps

54:06

too. And that's because Tyrese,

54:08

I think, really hit ahead passes, transition.

54:11

Like, he's not dominating the ball the

54:13

way Trae is. He's willing to play

54:15

off the ball more than

54:17

Trae is. And so I think

54:19

that all really matters a lot, both in terms of

54:21

being harder to stop, but also just in terms of

54:23

the overall culture of the team. And he also is

54:25

not just like, I'm going to hold the ball. It's

54:28

like, I'm going to hold the ball every single second

54:30

on offense. And then you have to

54:32

cover for me every single second on defense. That's

54:35

not like a great way to build a

54:37

culture for a team. To make friends and

54:39

influence people. Yeah, that's definitely fair. And

54:42

let's get to, would you rather talk about Maxi

54:44

first or Garland first? Yeah, so I had both

54:46

these guys in this next group as well. And

54:48

I feel like I've kind of overtierized a little

54:50

bit. But as I think about it, I

54:54

can't really say that Darius Garland is as good

54:56

as Trae Young. I don't think I can say

54:58

that Tariq Smackty maybe has more of an argument.

55:01

But I still think that he

55:03

just this time without Embiid has not

55:05

been particularly kind to him. He just

55:08

hasn't been good enough as

55:10

a passer, as a pick and

55:12

roll technician to be like

55:14

the guy that you're just putting the ball

55:16

in his hands. Like the numbers with him

55:18

on the floor when Embiid was off, when

55:20

Embiid was available were pretty good. But that

55:22

was a pretty small sample. And that's also

55:24

going up against backup units. That hasn't held

55:26

up nearly as well in the absence of

55:28

Embiid, noting that they've had other injuries too.

55:31

But as I look at it and I defend this

55:33

year, I'm like, yeah, I can't say that Tariq Smackty

55:35

is as good as Trae Young or De'Aaron Fox. And

55:38

I don't feel that way about Garland either. And then

55:40

I also, as I look down, I'm like, I'm not

55:43

going to tell you that De'Jante Murray, Fred Van Vliet,

55:45

LaMelo Ball, Anthony Simons, like my next group that those

55:47

guys are as good as Tariq Smackty either. I don't

55:49

think there's really much an argument. So if that's how

55:51

you do the tears when you feel like there's no

55:53

argument that the guys below or

55:56

the guys above are in the same group,

55:58

you have Garland first or Maxi? I

56:00

preliminarily have Garland first. With Maxi, a part

56:02

of it is just, can he be the

56:04

best offensive player on a good team? And

56:07

I mean, we're getting more data that at

56:09

least for right now, he can't, but- Yeah,

56:11

I mean, again, we're talking about the 11th

56:13

and 12th best point guards. So you're probably-

56:16

But- Yeah, that's not a fair expectation

56:18

at this point. It is. I think

56:20

that's reasonable. And with Maxi, the improvement as a

56:22

three point shooter, both in terms of like, that

56:24

makes him way more interesting here. And like, I

56:27

think that there are steps, Maxi's only 23, where

56:30

that he can take to get there. And

56:32

he's made strides defensively, but he's still definitely

56:34

not a positive and kind of making his

56:36

way there. And then with Garland,

56:38

who I've liked, for basically since he was a

56:41

prospect on that tiny bit of Vandy film, his

56:44

three point shooting numbers are actually, in

56:46

terms of volume and efficiency, slightly lower

56:48

than Maxi right now on the full

56:50

season, but they're relatively even

56:52

as, like in terms of

56:54

overall efficiency. And I personally think of

56:56

Garland as a little bit better of

56:58

a passer. It depends on the moment

57:00

in time, whether I am really holding

57:02

firm to that. But- I

57:04

would consider him as a lot better of a

57:06

passer and just a pick and roll technician than

57:09

Maxi. I think like, if you're, I feel

57:11

much more comfortable putting the ball in the

57:13

hands of Darius Garland to run my offense

57:15

than I do Tyrese Maxi. Now Maxi is

57:17

probably a little better as an off ball

57:19

guy, but not a ton. You know,

57:22

I think Garland is improving it in that

57:24

realm. Also, like Garland has had a down

57:26

year this year. I think certainly Maxi has

57:28

been better this season. And Maxi also doesn't

57:30

play with another point guard, basically, or another

57:32

ball dominant guard the way that Garland does.

57:35

And Garland's had a bunch of injuries, most

57:37

of which are not really, you know, like

57:39

facial fracture, you know, broken jaw. Like that's

57:41

the sort of stuff that you don't think

57:43

is gonna linger and be a

57:45

problem in his career, the way a lower body issue

57:47

would be. So I think I ultimately like Garland a

57:49

little bit better, but I like that both these

57:52

guys can shoot it well enough to play

57:54

off the ball, which is important when neither

57:56

of them are like premium number one options.

57:58

Yeah, it opens. the door for them to

58:01

be a complimentary player in the way that some of these

58:03

other guys have on the list. Yeah. Do

58:05

you think there's a meaningful difference between their defense? I mean,

58:08

Jamal definitely has more highlights. Like

58:12

there have been a few like really good blocks

58:14

and stuff for him, but possession by possession I

58:16

think they're relatively comparable personally. I think

58:18

Garland has improved a lot as a

58:21

lot of these guys have under JB

58:23

Bickerstaff, but just getting into the ball,

58:25

sending it where it needs to go.

58:28

So I think I might like Garland a

58:30

little bit better, but I think both of them

58:32

are going to kind of get pick and roll

58:34

run at them in the playoffs. Yeah. So

58:37

then this next group, this is probably the

58:39

end of guys that I would consider being

58:41

at like an all-star level. I

58:44

would too. And that's why I ended up drawing a

58:46

line here. Yeah. So what's your next group,

58:48

though? It's a hodgepodge of guys

58:50

who are either less like, you

58:52

know, more balanced players, but just not quite

58:54

as good. And then the most extremes on

58:56

the other ends. And so for me, the

58:59

group is so on the, on

59:01

the kind of the less dynamic overall players, I

59:03

would say that collection is Dejante Murray and Fred

59:05

Van Vliet where both of them are good point

59:07

guards. They can, they can run stuff, but you're

59:09

not going to have like an elite, elite offense.

59:11

They have things they do well. Then

59:14

you to me have the two best defenders

59:16

left who are capable enough offensive players. And

59:18

so for me, that's Jaylen Suggs and Drew

59:20

Holliday. And then you have Lamello Ball, who

59:22

is just the wildcard, who is more offense,

59:24

but you could argue easily. And I've had

59:26

him higher on this list that like a

59:28

healthy Lamello Ball should be, should be higher,

59:30

but we haven't gotten to see it and everything

59:32

else. So you have a potential offensive engine and

59:35

then you have these other positional archetypes. Yeah. Lamello,

59:37

it's just been so long since he's

59:39

been a serious player and there's certainly

59:42

some things that you like, you know,

59:44

10 three point attempts per 36 is

59:46

number two at this position. And

59:48

only it's 35 and a half percent

59:50

of those is his pre-throw drawing has

59:52

improved some, but still not amazing

59:55

considering the, that he has

59:57

this absolute sky high usage.

1:00:00

rate of 34% going

1:00:02

over to Seth stats, playmaking rate really high 19.5%,

1:00:04

scoring usage 27.5%, but

1:00:09

the turnovers have just been absolutely

1:00:11

ridiculous. 4.9%

1:00:13

turnovers, but you know, Trey Young has that too,

1:00:16

but then his overall team doesn't turn it over

1:00:18

that much. So, and Lomelo is also has never

1:00:20

really shown much as a defensive. Why don't we

1:00:22

just haven't seen the guy play in two years?

1:00:26

Looks like he's headed for 22

1:00:28

games again this season after

1:00:30

kind of similar last year. And so certainly I

1:00:32

think you can have him come in and be

1:00:35

effective. You know, the Charlotte offense

1:00:37

was better with him on the floor, but

1:00:39

still nothing good. They had nothing around him

1:00:41

a lot of this season and his defense

1:00:43

has been kind of a joke the last

1:00:45

couple of years. So it's just like, I

1:00:47

think there's a way for him to get

1:00:49

into that Garland maxi group. If he could

1:00:51

just like be healthy and on a real

1:00:53

team, but I just, I'm not, I'm not

1:00:55

ready to bet on that yet. And just

1:00:57

particularly with the vibe that he gives you

1:00:59

of just having, just being so far away from

1:01:01

playing winning basketball on a real team. That's, yeah, that's

1:01:03

pretty much why I have him in the team. Well,

1:01:06

but his talent level, I couldn't have him below this

1:01:08

group, the 13 to 17 group for me.

1:01:11

So it's just, he's there. What's your

1:01:13

go-to drink before a flight, a West

1:01:15

coast IPA or Manhattan? Find

1:01:17

the detail that moves you with local beer and

1:01:20

craft cocktails at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the

1:01:22

club. Learn more at chase.com/Sapphire Reserve. It's issued by

1:01:24

JP Morgan, Chase bank, and a member FDIC subject

1:01:26

to credit approval. The

1:01:29

only thing worse than a pitcher running out of gas on

1:01:31

the mound is your old phone running out of storage for

1:01:34

your photos in a stand. Switch

1:01:36

to Verizon and get a great deal on

1:01:39

a new iPhone 15 pro with tons of

1:01:41

storage for all the ballpark picks you want.

1:01:43

Just trade in your iPhone, any model in

1:01:45

any condition. So you'll feel like you're winning

1:01:47

even when your team's not trade in any

1:01:49

iPhone in any condition for a great deal

1:01:51

on iPhone 15 pro with unlimited ultimate and

1:01:53

get iPad and Apple watch SE with eligible

1:01:56

service plan only on Verizon. your

1:02:00

interest in terms of discussion. I'll leave it up to

1:02:02

you. Let's do the

1:02:04

defensive player. So for me, Jalen Suggs, he's,

1:02:07

I, either you brought up Shay, I think of

1:02:10

Suggs as the best defensive player who we classify

1:02:12

as a point guard for this. He can

1:02:14

do point of attack. He is extremely disruptive and

1:02:16

he can, he can work on ball, off

1:02:18

ball, whatever you really want there. An

1:02:20

underrated part of why when he's been available, the

1:02:22

magic offense has really worked. The question, and you

1:02:24

brought this up in the 15 and 60, is

1:02:27

whether this level of shooting for

1:02:30

Jalen Suggs is anything close to plausible because it's

1:02:32

kind of. I know since we questioned it, it's

1:02:34

only continued to climb. He's up to 40% now

1:02:37

on seven for 36. So

1:02:39

because for Suggs, it needs, it doesn't need to be

1:02:42

40% in order for him to

1:02:44

be in this group, but it probably does need to

1:02:46

be in the high thirties at their minimum. And this

1:02:48

is the first year that's happened because if he's playing

1:02:50

Suggs is off ball. So that the point guard can

1:02:52

be tricky for people because you think of it as

1:02:55

an on ball position, but it doesn't have to be.

1:02:58

And with Suggs, he's

1:03:00

not good enough at the things, at the

1:03:02

things that you pick and roll and all

1:03:04

those things, other than some transition creation to

1:03:06

be that player. But if you're the best

1:03:09

defender at the position, at a high leverage

1:03:11

defensive position relative to the rest of the

1:03:13

perimeter, because he can defend point of attack,

1:03:15

then if you get guarded, I'm fine with

1:03:18

you being here. So for Suggs,

1:03:21

it is a little bit of projection. It's funny,

1:03:23

I've been, I've been skeptical on a lot of

1:03:25

the young guys, but I love what he does

1:03:27

defensively. I mean, I've loved him defensively since summer

1:03:29

league that first year, and even a little bit

1:03:31

that I saw when he played against Aga. And

1:03:34

so I believe in that part of it. And if

1:03:36

the offensive game is at this level, like for me,

1:03:38

Suggs versus Murray in particular is why they have

1:03:40

in the same chairs. Like Murray is a

1:03:42

meaningfully better offensive player, but Suggs is in

1:03:44

some ways the defensive player that Ajante was

1:03:46

when he came out of UW. Yeah, I

1:03:49

think he's way better than Ajante ever was,

1:03:51

just because he's so much stronger, so much

1:03:53

better getting over a screen. And he does

1:03:55

also provide that great level of

1:03:57

help defense, amazing in the passing lanes. contest

1:04:00

percentage 16.1% shots at the rim and you

1:04:02

know, a lot of 66% that

1:04:06

you see is the six four guard, but

1:04:08

that still is providing value versus when you're

1:04:10

just leaving guys wide open. I still had

1:04:12

him in the next group though. He's

1:04:15

my number 20 in a group with

1:04:17

Kobe white and Emmanuel quickly. Um, you know,

1:04:19

I think there's part of it

1:04:21

is not quite believing in the shooting. The

1:04:23

other part is only 7.5% playmaking usage is

1:04:25

basically, you know, the level of a shooting

1:04:27

guard and that while he is making some

1:04:30

more shots, I don't think of him as quite a

1:04:32

shooting guard level of shooter yet, you know, he does

1:04:34

this for another year. Maybe I will feel that way.

1:04:36

Seth has noted that this is one of the greatest

1:04:38

one season shooting improvements that we've seen from the three

1:04:40

point line. And, you know, I think enough

1:04:43

of that's real that I think he'll be

1:04:45

respectable from out there, but I don't know

1:04:47

if you're going to view him as like,

1:04:49

you know, a quality option. So maybe even

1:04:51

an argument that he should be a shooting

1:04:53

guard as well. So I just, maybe I'm

1:04:55

just not valuing his defense quite enough. Well,

1:04:57

to me, to me, yeah. The reason I

1:04:59

have such here is because you could put at

1:05:01

this point, you're probably going to want a

1:05:04

better offensive player than like Dejante Marie anyway,

1:05:06

somebody like that. And you can put sags

1:05:08

as long as the shooting is close to

1:05:10

real with basically any of them, like the

1:05:12

idea, basically, it doesn't matter if it's a

1:05:14

five, if it's a two, where whoever that

1:05:17

best guy is, he fits in. And it's

1:05:19

a very similar argument to the later stage,

1:05:21

true holiday argument, which is like, he's not

1:05:23

the number one offensively, but because of his

1:05:25

positional strength and everything else, like he can,

1:05:27

he can make that work. So yes, he's

1:05:30

not the best offensive player on a good

1:05:32

offense anymore, but he does all these other

1:05:34

things well enough that like, there are many

1:05:36

circumstances if we're throwing players on a random

1:05:38

team where I would rather have drew holiday

1:05:40

than Fred van Bleeft, because if Fred van

1:05:42

Bleeft, actually, and he's a, he's a better

1:05:44

defensive player than some of the other guys,

1:05:46

but like, where if you don't need what

1:05:48

he does really well, then it, it could

1:05:50

mute, it could mute him a little bit.

1:05:52

Yeah. I think that you're, there's

1:05:55

a big difference in degree between

1:05:57

the offense of even drew holiday this

1:05:59

year. much less in

1:06:01

the last couple of years before this one. You know, True

1:06:03

Holiday, I think had like 25% usage just

1:06:06

last year and still his playmaking usage

1:06:08

even in a very truncated role in

1:06:10

Boston is 11.6, I'm

1:06:13

sorry, excuse me, 10.9% this year compared to

1:06:15

7.5% for Suggs. And

1:06:18

so like True Holiday can run some

1:06:20

pick and roll. He can back guys

1:06:22

back down smaller defenders. He's also, I

1:06:24

still think a more reliable shooter than

1:06:26

Suggs as well. He's just done

1:06:28

it over a longer period of time. I think 44.5% from

1:06:30

downtown. And

1:06:33

yeah, probably not quite as good as Suggs

1:06:35

defensively anymore, although I might still like Drew

1:06:37

against maybe some bigger players in the post.

1:06:40

So yeah, I mean, I think to me,

1:06:42

Drew is like clearly better than Suggs still

1:06:46

because I do think Suggs is like pretty much kind

1:06:48

of a one true. So he's only playing 27 minutes

1:06:50

of game too. That's something that

1:06:52

I still kind of stick out to me a little

1:06:54

bit. It seems like he's always dealing with injuries in

1:06:56

and out of the lineup, all that type of stuff.

1:06:58

Now he's played 61 games this year. He's been

1:07:00

available. But I do think it's noteworthy that

1:07:03

on an Orlando team that doesn't really have

1:07:05

any great guards, that he's still only playing

1:07:07

27 minutes. All right, they

1:07:09

need to work in Cole Anthony. They need to

1:07:11

work in Markel Foltz. Those guys all have equity

1:07:14

there. But if Suggs is like so awesome, wouldn't

1:07:16

they just be playing him more? You

1:07:18

can argue they're wrong about that. So

1:07:20

I had him in that group with Whiting quickly. Let's

1:07:23

talk about some of the, I just, I still

1:07:25

can't say that on

1:07:27

most teams but

1:07:29

I'm giving more respect for what this

1:07:31

position means and just generally what you

1:07:34

need to do at this position. And

1:07:36

Fred Van Vliet is someone who's really improved

1:07:39

Houston this year. Like, Anthony Simons pulls threes

1:07:41

off the dribble really well. Like,

1:07:43

Dejante Murray is actually, I think, having

1:07:45

kind of an underrated season because he's

1:07:47

been talked about getting traded. His shooting

1:07:49

has really improved both from mid-range and

1:07:52

from three this year. And I think

1:07:54

he could maybe be better defensively than

1:07:56

he's been in Atlanta when he doesn't,

1:07:58

if he's now your worst defense. So

1:08:00

I think for all those guys to me and

1:08:02

then drew and the and lamella like I'm just

1:08:04

maybe there's a few teams that are Rather of

1:08:06

Jalen Suggs on but I don't think too many

1:08:09

and and and those teams It's like if we're

1:08:11

talking about him as a point guard, you're probably

1:08:13

really playing Suggs at shooting guard Yeah, which you

1:08:15

know again, he's he was kind of tough to

1:08:17

classify in that regard So I understand you're having

1:08:19

him here. Maybe I'm just not giving his defense

1:08:21

enough respect Were there any other guys in this

1:08:23

group you wanted to talk about? I mean just

1:08:25

to just to give a little bit of praise

1:08:27

to Fred Van Blede I mean the way he

1:08:30

has transformed I mean to the basic point

1:08:32

of the Rockets going from the highest turnover

1:08:34

offense to I believe they're closer to middle

1:08:36

of the Road at this point like that

1:08:38

that makes their offense so much better and

1:08:40

van Blede is it still a capable defender?

1:08:42

I you know, there are moments where you're

1:08:44

where you wonder like I mean these shooting

1:08:46

threes at a high volume doing pretty well

1:08:49

38% on set on basically eight per 36 like that.

1:08:51

That's very good I'm pleased with how

1:08:53

he's improved his efficiency this year up to 57 percent

1:08:56

true shooting base The league average

1:08:58

for point there average and in part

1:09:00

and I would say in some ways This is a

1:09:03

credit though. Not entirely to van Blede is that he

1:09:05

has been able to play alongside other Offensively

1:09:08

dynamic players. I mean you could go back

1:09:10

to Kyle Lowry and Kawhi in Toronto, but

1:09:12

also Alfred Shangu now So he has a

1:09:14

smaller role within his team's offense than basically

1:09:16

anybody we've discussed so far a partner

1:09:19

total usage below 37%

1:09:22

but he does a reasonably good job when he's in there

1:09:24

He's a positive offensive player and the other thing that I

1:09:26

really like about van Blede and why I absolutely

1:09:28

wouldn't have below this But I didn't quite want to

1:09:30

have him in the garland maxi group is He's

1:09:33

a credible positive on both ends of the

1:09:35

floor and they're actually sure that many players

1:09:37

left where that's true No, absolutely not and

1:09:39

you know, he's probably better now as like

1:09:41

more of a switch guy more of a

1:09:43

health defender This is actually pretty hilarious Danny.

1:09:45

Like I think van Blede is the shortest

1:09:48

guy we've discussed so far Fred van

1:09:50

Blede has the Highest or

1:09:52

I'm sorry the lowest rim field goal percentage

1:09:54

allowed at this position Wow 63.1%

1:09:58

and now you only contest 8.4% of

1:10:00

opponent shots that Dan actually I think wrote

1:10:02

about how Van Vliet has this incredible shot

1:10:04

blocking record for how short he is which

1:10:07

is mostly like strips around there but he's

1:10:09

there enough to kind of bother guys will

1:10:11

take some charges these physical so certainly more

1:10:13

of a plus than most of these guys

1:10:15

defensively and of course his ability to play

1:10:17

off the ball is very important at this

1:10:19

range and maybe on a different team he

1:10:21

would help push the ball and transition more

1:10:23

I think he's maybe slowing down a little

1:10:26

bit in that respected age 30 but he

1:10:28

also can still play like a billion minutes

1:10:30

no problem without doing 37 minutes a game

1:10:32

this year which is I think higher than

1:10:34

anyone at this position other than Tyrese Maxi

1:10:36

and Simon's moved into point guard this year

1:10:39

from shooting guard he's just been playing point

1:10:41

guard for the last two seasons playmaking usage

1:10:43

is at pretty much the positional average at

1:10:45

this point an absolute bomber from three off

1:10:47

the pick and roll 9.3 per 36 38.6

1:10:52

percent that's just been going on for like

1:10:54

three four years now great free

1:10:56

throw shooter at 92 percent and so I

1:10:58

think that's pretty powerful and also a

1:11:01

guy who can move some off the ball defensive

1:11:03

liability to be sure but so are a lot

1:11:05

of these guys I think he's firmly in this

1:11:07

group to me and I think is

1:11:09

someone that can't can't I think like the idea that

1:11:12

the Orlando Magic should be trying to trade for him

1:11:14

I think is that kind of an interesting one with

1:11:17

and that there are some other teams maybe that

1:11:19

could I think he's got he's got some similarities

1:11:21

I would say to Maxi Maxi just a little

1:11:23

bit higher a volume probably a little better defensively

1:11:25

a little bit better attacking the basket as Simon's

1:11:28

is kind of struggled a little bit from inside

1:11:30

the arc but I don't just like a solid

1:11:32

starting point guard who really you know anytime in

1:11:34

this range if there

1:11:36

are things that you can do that really

1:11:38

are going to like stress out the defense

1:11:40

you got to feel pretty good about it

1:11:42

and his three-point shooting off the dribble is

1:11:45

certainly I really like how there are players

1:11:47

in this area who have improved to get

1:11:49

here so Simon's is of course one of

1:11:51

them and one of them is Kobe White

1:11:53

and Kobe White becoming a more dynamic overall

1:11:55

player you know kind of being an underappreciated

1:11:57

reason why the Bulls have had the success

1:11:59

that's they've had this year, 39% on 7 threes per 36 has, you

1:12:01

know, has been a clear positive offensive

1:12:06

player this year. Um, there are, you know,

1:12:08

there are other players on the Bulls, but

1:12:10

the Bulls offense is nine points per 100

1:12:12

possessions better when Kobe whites on the floor.

1:12:14

And I think he's been at times

1:12:17

capable defensively. He's not like a great defensive player

1:12:19

or anything like that. I think he, I think

1:12:21

he's totally fine. Like he's six, five, like he's,

1:12:23

he's learned to compete there. Yeah. I don't, I

1:12:26

don't think he's a liability, which for a starting

1:12:28

point guard is, is solid. And then another player

1:12:30

in this who's improved to this level for me

1:12:32

as a manual quickly and quickly. I wish

1:12:34

we had more of a sample with how this

1:12:36

is going to work with quickly and Barnes in

1:12:38

Toronto, both due to Barnes injury and now and

1:12:41

now quickly's personal absence, but I'm becoming

1:12:43

more open to the idea of quickly

1:12:45

being a, a creator. He's shown more

1:12:47

chops still, still work in progress and

1:12:49

quickly is 24. So there's still plenty

1:12:52

of time for him to improve there,

1:12:54

but I think this is the right

1:12:56

place to have it. Well, and I,

1:12:58

I'm not as concerned about, you know,

1:13:00

his pick and roll creation, maybe as some,

1:13:02

and I think, you know, his two point shooting

1:13:04

has been disappointing since he got to Toronto. Hopefully

1:13:06

that's something that will improve for him, but 39.6%

1:13:09

three point shooting 7.7 for 36 and he's doing

1:13:11

it actually working off

1:13:15

the ball a lot and he's taking deep three.

1:13:17

So that's, that's an exciting element to me that

1:13:20

you can throw the ball to Scotty Barnes and

1:13:22

set him a flare screen and

1:13:24

get him open for a three that he

1:13:26

can make. And then I think defensively he's

1:13:28

maybe a little undersized, but also we'll get

1:13:30

into the ball. I think he's, he could be

1:13:32

solid there and just a conventional pick and roll

1:13:34

scheme. He was in New York. It's been a disjointed

1:13:37

time for him in Toronto, but this is kind of

1:13:39

where I've had him in the last couple of years

1:13:41

is I've got a number 19 overall.

1:13:43

I have white quickly in Suggs as my

1:13:45

18 through 20 in a tier seven. So

1:13:48

it sounds like that. Do we have the

1:13:50

exact same top 20 guys? I

1:13:52

have two other players in this tier that

1:13:55

are so how we, how we order it, you know,

1:13:57

I, I'm at the point now where I'm not ranking

1:13:59

guys. Then I'll mention them and

1:14:01

I actually could be persuaded to move them

1:14:03

down So the first one is Mike Conley

1:14:05

and Conley, you know pick and roll operator

1:14:07

Even if it's Anthony Edwards show now, but

1:14:10

he's you know provides an important piece of

1:14:12

stability for them and Conley he's

1:14:14

a limited defensive player, but he's not a

1:14:17

Civ like a catastrophic there the

1:14:19

limitations for Conley a are like age

1:14:22

and capability to play serious minutes Like

1:14:24

I mean he's he's played 1800 so

1:14:27

far this year, which is which is very good for a 36 year old But

1:14:30

you wonder where that's gonna go moving forward and

1:14:32

like what his role is so different than some

1:14:34

of these other guys Like what would he do

1:14:36

in that? But he's so he's so good at

1:14:38

what he does and he's an important part of

1:14:41

one of the league's best teams Yeah, it's still

1:14:43

a great passer and you know, he can move

1:14:45

off the ball for shots a little bit I

1:14:47

think he can set the point where he can

1:14:49

shoot 43% from three in his sleep I

1:14:52

do think that towards the end in Utah I

1:14:54

was clear that he was a defensive liability and

1:14:56

just because he's on the walls that that Hasn't

1:14:59

really been exposed and then you know, he

1:15:01

has stayed healthy this year He's dealt with

1:15:04

the hamstring issue the last couple years in

1:15:06

Utah or I guess I guess it's been

1:15:08

two years now since that That was the

1:15:10

case. But yeah, he clearly is on a

1:15:12

30 minute per game limit They are not

1:15:14

gonna play him more than that It seems

1:15:17

like under any circumstances and they certainly could

1:15:19

use him more and he just can't score

1:15:21

inside the arc in the slightest Anymore he's

1:15:23

really more going to just make passes from

1:15:25

outside the arc and get you into your

1:15:27

offense And he he does fulfill is irreplaceable

1:15:30

for Minnesota And then there's also the

1:15:32

thought that this is his age 36 season

1:15:34

and if a season starting now You could

1:15:36

see a drop off you could see some

1:15:38

injuries and he does at least never turn

1:15:40

it over But that 13.5 percent

1:15:43

scoring you so like I did I can't put

1:15:45

him in the same group as those guys above

1:15:47

because the combination of the minutes

1:15:49

inability to do anything inside the arc and

1:15:52

You're not I wouldn't consider him like he's

1:15:54

not gonna like just totally like screw you

1:15:56

on defense by making mistakes But he I

1:15:58

don't think he can provide much resistance

1:16:00

than one-on-one against anybody who can do

1:16:03

anything at this point. So he

1:16:05

had to be in the next group. And I

1:16:07

will say the other guy that I had, I

1:16:09

already moved down. I didn't really want him there

1:16:11

because I don't like his game, but it was

1:16:13

the Angela Russell. And Russell's having an amazing offensive

1:16:15

season in terms of three-point shooting.

1:16:18

Like, I mean, 42% on respectable volume,

1:16:20

7.6. Yeah, more

1:16:22

than respectable volume. Yeah. But he doesn't get

1:16:24

to the line, really, at all. I mean,

1:16:26

that's one of the striking things with Russell.

1:16:28

That was a criticism we had back when

1:16:30

he was the Laker the first time. But

1:16:32

he's down to below three free throw attempts

1:16:34

for 36 minutes. He's over 50% on twos.

1:16:36

That's a real area

1:16:38

for growth. But he is a limited defensive

1:16:40

player, of course. And so with Russell, it's

1:16:42

the lingering question of, like, well, what would

1:16:44

he be if he had a different role

1:16:47

for other guys? And so I ended

1:16:49

up, I had him briefly because he's having this

1:16:51

successful offensive season and everything like that. I mean,

1:16:53

if we were really getting it, not that it's

1:16:55

ratings or gospel or anything like that, but, like,

1:16:57

you know, he would be above this in terms

1:17:00

of, like, offensive EPM and certain

1:17:02

other things like that. But A, I think

1:17:04

this season for the 27-year-old Russell

1:17:06

is probably closer to the high water mark

1:17:08

of where things are going. And

1:17:10

he has these other limitations. So I moved

1:17:12

him into this bigger group that I call

1:17:14

high-end reserves who still shouldn't start or close.

1:17:16

And there are exceptions to that based on

1:17:18

team circumstances. But I'm talking about on

1:17:21

the average, you know, like, on the average

1:17:23

team, they have some limitations that make it

1:17:25

harder to work with them. Yeah,

1:17:27

I think definitely one of the worst defenders at

1:17:30

this position, like, just can't get over a screen

1:17:32

at all. And I think maybe he gives you

1:17:34

a little bit more than some of these guys

1:17:36

as a health defender because he is smart and

1:17:39

he's got, like, long arms, a little bit of

1:17:41

size. But he is just so slow that it's

1:17:44

really, really difficult for him to guard. And

1:17:46

if he didn't have Anthony Davis behind

1:17:48

him, it would be a lot worse. Like,

1:17:50

I mean, more so than his offense, the

1:17:53

reason that they couldn't play him against Denver

1:17:55

was he just couldn't run after anybody around

1:17:57

the D.H.O. at all, like, in the way

1:17:59

that... like Schruder could and that's

1:18:01

why he lost time to him as the

1:18:03

playoffs went on. And yeah, I'm also just

1:18:05

not a believer that 41.9% three point shooting

1:18:08

is really big. High thirties

1:18:10

is, but I do a quality

1:18:13

passing option too, but there's only so much he

1:18:15

can do because he doesn't put pressure on the

1:18:17

rim in that regard. And I do think if

1:18:20

you, if he's going up against a bad defender,

1:18:22

he can do some stuff in isolation, but not

1:18:24

against a good defender. So yeah, I had him

1:18:26

in this next year. Here's some of the names

1:18:29

I have in this tier, which is from

1:18:31

21 down to 27. So

1:18:34

I got Russell here, Tyus

1:18:37

Jones, Connelly, Io Dusunmu, who

1:18:39

another guy is kind of on the borderline of point

1:18:41

guard and shooting guard. He certainly can defend point guards.

1:18:43

He can really defend all the way up to three.

1:18:46

Honestly, like he's had some moments there. And

1:18:48

do you believe that he's a 39% three point shooter? I

1:18:51

don't, but I think he's going to make open ones

1:18:53

at this point. He's starting to take a few more

1:18:55

and he's been effective as a driver, just, you know,

1:18:57

a second side straight line driver, good transition option. So

1:19:00

he's really had a nice bounce back season

1:19:02

after kind of a disappointing second year. And,

1:19:04

you know, he can kind of come in

1:19:06

and fulfill that George Hill style of Arkansas,

1:19:08

early career George Hill, not the guy who

1:19:11

actually did some more pick and roll stuff

1:19:13

in Utah necessarily. So that's, you know, I

1:19:15

don't think that Dusunmu has a lot of

1:19:17

craft to his offensive game, but I think

1:19:19

he can not be a liability. He's shown

1:19:21

that now this season, I've got confidence there.

1:19:24

And certainly, you know, one of the better

1:19:26

defense. When it's time to hit the hay,

1:19:28

but cold and flu symptoms are keeping you

1:19:30

awake. You need Nyquil Severe Honey

1:19:32

flavor. Just one dose of

1:19:34

Nyquil Severe Honey gives you fast, powerful

1:19:36

relief from your worst cold and flu

1:19:39

symptoms. So you can get back to

1:19:41

having sweet dreams. Nyquil Severe

1:19:43

Honey is your nighttime, sniffling, sneezing,

1:19:45

coughing, aching, fever, best sleep with

1:19:47

a cold medicine with a dreamy,

1:19:49

honey, delicious taste. Use as

1:19:51

directed. Keep out of reach of children. The

1:19:56

only thing worse than a pitcher running out of gas on

1:19:58

the mound is your old phone running out of storage. for

1:20:00

your photos in a stand. Goodbye, alright! Switch

1:20:02

to Verizon and get a great deal on

1:20:04

a new iPhone 15 Pro with

1:20:06

tons of storage for all the ballpark picks

1:20:09

you want. Just trade in your iPhone, any

1:20:11

model in any condition so you'll feel like

1:20:13

you're winning, even when your team's not. Trade

1:20:15

in any iPhone in any condition for a

1:20:17

great deal on iPhone 15 Pro with Unlimited

1:20:19

Ultimate and get iPad and Apple Watch SE

1:20:21

with eligible service plans, only on Verizon. There

1:20:25

are a lot of players in this group that I

1:20:27

really like or appreciate what they do well. This

1:20:30

is where I ended up with Jose Alvarado. And

1:20:32

Alvarado was only playing 18 minutes per game, which

1:20:34

is pretty incredible. Some of that is... Yeah, I

1:20:37

had to go lower on him

1:20:39

because of that and also just because he can't really

1:20:41

do anything inside the arc. He can't do anything inside

1:20:43

the arc, but Alvarado in those limited minutes, 37% on

1:20:45

7 threes per 36. If

1:20:49

this continues, he may be the

1:20:51

most notable Fred Vinson success story

1:20:53

there are others in consideration. So

1:20:56

I have him here. I think he's one of the better

1:20:58

defenders at the position in this group. And

1:21:01

he's... Yeah, I had to lower

1:21:03

him just because... And particularly when you consider

1:21:05

his style too, we've just never seen him

1:21:07

in a role where he's playing

1:21:09

more than 20 minutes a game. I

1:21:12

had to put him in just a backup

1:21:14

category. Yeah, that's fair. Another

1:21:16

guy who's here, the first rookie that we've had

1:21:18

at all this, I have Keontae George

1:21:20

and I hires here, then I have Scoot Henderson. For

1:21:23

next year, I still like what Scoot can be,

1:21:25

but the growth that Keontae George has shown over

1:21:27

this season, I just think he can step in

1:21:29

and play a role on a good team. Yeah,

1:21:32

I had him a little bit lower just because

1:21:34

I wonder about his... Yeah, I just kind of

1:21:36

wonder about that, him

1:21:38

playing a role on a good team. Now, 7.8, three point times

1:21:40

for 36, 36%. That's

1:21:44

solid. He has to be guarded out there

1:21:46

for a rookie point guard. 55% true shooting

1:21:48

is not bad. I think he can maybe

1:21:50

get there defensively, but it's still a liability

1:21:53

at this point in time. I think if

1:21:55

you're really trying to win, I think he's

1:21:57

probably more of like an offensively focused backup.

1:22:00

I had him in the group below as well. Let

1:22:02

me say who I did have

1:22:04

here. Sure. Chris Paul still have

1:22:06

him here. I think he could, he can't play

1:22:08

that many minutes anymore, although he would probably tell

1:22:11

you that he could. And his

1:22:13

three point shooting has gotten better as the year

1:22:15

has gone on. He's taking a few more of

1:22:17

them, but more clapping a spot up role. He

1:22:19

can't really do much off the pick and roll

1:22:22

anymore. But I don't know, is he really that

1:22:24

much worse than Mike Conley at this point? Conley's

1:22:26

a better shooter. I think Chris Paul actually can

1:22:28

still do some positive things on the defensive

1:22:30

end with his hands and his strength and

1:22:32

competitiveness. Probably similar minutes, limitations. So I think

1:22:35

it's like Paul has kind of been in

1:22:37

a weird spot because he's been coming off

1:22:39

the bench this year, but I think he

1:22:41

can still give you some decent caretaker point

1:22:43

guard play. I have Chris Paul in this

1:22:45

group. Every single player you've, I have a

1:22:47

bigger tier than you, every single player you've

1:22:49

mentioned has been in mine. Malcolm Brogdon? Yep.

1:22:52

Yeah, and this is one where he, I don't

1:22:54

think he can start anymore just

1:22:56

because of the minutes limitations, but can

1:22:58

certainly be a solid backup option. He's

1:23:00

hitting as usual 40% on threes. Again,

1:23:03

even if like his shot form isn't conducive

1:23:05

to a ton of volume, and he can

1:23:07

still drive to the basket a little bit,

1:23:09

although that part of it is waned. And

1:23:11

he's got a big body slow defensively, but

1:23:13

probably not gonna just get totally abused there

1:23:15

on a real team. And then I had

1:23:17

one more guy in this group who we've

1:23:20

completely forgotten about, but if we are getting

1:23:22

everybody healthy, I would have Gabe Vincent here.

1:23:24

I had Vincent at the kind of the

1:23:26

top of my next group, but just because

1:23:28

his best moments haven't been

1:23:30

as consistent, but I understand why you would.

1:23:32

I think he's just really good defensively. He

1:23:34

can do some switching and it can shoot

1:23:36

a mid ranger off the pick and roll,

1:23:39

but it's also a guy who's gonna bomb

1:23:41

for three. I think your biggest concern for

1:23:43

him is how many threes is he actually

1:23:45

gonna make? But he's had a couple

1:23:47

of really good playoff runs with Miami. I think

1:23:50

the other concern is just why is the knee

1:23:52

never gonna be right? Cause you

1:23:54

don't like it when he's struggled all season to

1:23:56

get healthy and then he ended up having to

1:23:58

have a surgery and maybe. he's going to

1:24:00

come back, maybe he's not. There's conflicting reporting

1:24:02

on that. But we haven't seen

1:24:05

anything yet to indicate that this knee issue is

1:24:07

something that's like going to just completely torpedo his

1:24:09

career. Like there are like a couple of things

1:24:11

that kind of make you raise your eyebrows, but

1:24:13

for the purposes of this exercise, I don't think

1:24:15

that's fair to him. So,

1:24:17

and the guy that we saw in the playoffs

1:24:20

the last few years and in at least one

1:24:22

regular season for Miami was someone who I felt

1:24:24

could be in this range because he does fit

1:24:26

in on a good team with that skill set.

1:24:28

So you said you had a bigger tier here,

1:24:30

who else are you throwing in? I

1:24:32

had Truder here, I had Andrew Nemheart

1:24:34

here, I've had Kyle Lowry here. He's

1:24:37

had such a star-crossed year, but Monte Morris, I think

1:24:39

this is the level of play that he had last

1:24:41

season. So I wanted, I think, I don't

1:24:43

think his stuff is going to persist. And then

1:24:46

you said you had Tyus here, I do as

1:24:48

well. I also have his brother Trey. Yeah, Trey's

1:24:50

shooting is just a little bit too much of

1:24:52

a problem for my taste. 31.9%, 3.1 per 36. You

1:24:58

really kind of, he is, I mean, he shoots

1:25:00

him with pretty easy. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to move him

1:25:02

down. But that's wide open. I'm moving

1:25:04

him down. He's almost working more often as a roll

1:25:06

man than as a pick and

1:25:08

roll creator these days. It's a weird scheme.

1:25:10

For Victor. Yeah, I'm not sure,

1:25:13

I certainly understand you putting all these

1:25:15

guys kind of in the same group. I guess

1:25:17

I just felt that. I could have done a

1:25:19

subdivision, but I'm just like, eh, like. I think

1:25:21

I've just gotten to the point where I'm like,

1:25:23

all right, I don't, if this guy's starting for

1:25:25

you, you clearly need an upgrade. Yeah, that's true.

1:25:27

I mean, and for example, like I have a

1:25:29

bigger group. My group runs from 22 to 32. There

1:25:32

are teams that can play bigger guys and just

1:25:34

don't have a point guard at all, but it's

1:25:36

not like every team. There is

1:25:39

a real issue. Yeah, so I drew

1:25:41

the line here with Schruder, Trey Jones,

1:25:43

Keontae was in this for me, Kyle

1:25:45

Lowry was in this group for me. So

1:25:48

you had like, basically you divided the same

1:25:50

general concept in two, whereas I had it

1:25:52

in one. Yeah, and I threw maybe a

1:25:54

few other guys in as well that you're

1:25:56

going to have more as kind of pure

1:25:58

backups. I've had Jason Wallace. There I think

1:26:00

he's a really defensive option. He's making open threes to

1:26:02

the tune of 42%, 5.0 for 36. But

1:26:06

he's done really absolutely nothing else other than

1:26:08

maybe finish on the fast break. 5.2% playmaking

1:26:11

usage is infinitesimal. I think your hope is

1:26:13

that he develops into maybe a Jalen Suggs

1:26:15

type. And he certainly is very good on

1:26:17

defense. And Nembhard is sort of the same.

1:26:19

We got seduced by that one ridiculous game

1:26:22

that surely is going to be, it would

1:26:24

seem like the best of his career that

1:26:26

he had against Golden State last year that

1:26:28

we did for the strategy stream. But

1:26:30

at this point, I'm not sure if he's

1:26:33

a good enough shooting option. I mean, he's

1:26:35

been starting a lot next to Tyrese Halbert.

1:26:37

And he still is shooting only 34% for

1:26:39

three and 3.6 for 36. He's

1:26:43

not really going to shoot it off the

1:26:45

pick and roll. You could do a little

1:26:47

mid-range stuff. The presence of T.J. McConnell, he's

1:26:49

really had to play mostly shooting guard this

1:26:51

year. But it would be nice if you

1:26:53

really trusted him with the ball in his

1:26:55

hands a little bit more. So

1:26:57

that's been a little bit of a struggle. But certainly one

1:26:59

of the better defenders of this position. One quick

1:27:01

thing on Kacen Wallace. The lowest

1:27:04

total usage of any player that we've

1:27:06

really discussed so far is around 25%.

1:27:09

And we didn't even discuss Jose Alvarado that

1:27:11

much. Kacen Wallace is at 18% right now.

1:27:14

Like he just has such a tiny role within the

1:27:16

offense. And now I think he could do more. But

1:27:18

how much more is an open question? Yeah, I mean,

1:27:20

I don't think you're giving him the ball in pick

1:27:22

and roll. So how exactly is

1:27:24

he supposed to be creating these shots? Maybe

1:27:27

a little more in transition. It's

1:27:30

not like even attacking closeouts. You think you could

1:27:32

do a little more than this. Yeah,

1:27:34

so I had Amen Thompson here as well. Probably controversial

1:27:36

that we have him as a point guard. I still

1:27:39

would like to see him more in that role. But

1:27:41

with Houston starting to win again, I don't think it's

1:27:43

going to happen. I was in my head.

1:27:45

I made the joke about it. It's going to be

1:27:48

exciting to see Amen Thompson play before different positions in

1:27:50

the position rankings his first four years. But

1:27:54

I mean, I think he's a top two

1:27:56

or three defender among the guys that we're

1:27:58

talking about. I think I

1:28:00

just, we just haven't seen him get to run

1:28:03

like any pick and roll at all. I think

1:28:05

maybe on another team, it might've been a little

1:28:07

bit different for him. So, but you know, the

1:28:09

reality is he was being guarded by Victor of

1:28:11

Ambediama and that was totally messing up Houston's offense

1:28:14

in this first game, but he can certainly bring

1:28:16

the ball up court. He can, he can push

1:28:18

it. He's a very good passer. Uh, it's just,

1:28:20

you know, the complete lack of shooting and he

1:28:22

is probably the worst shooter at this position, like

1:28:25

even worse than Markel Foltz because he's not really

1:28:27

much of a mid range game either. But given

1:28:29

what he's doing on the, on the defensive

1:28:31

end and that he can at least, you

1:28:33

know, initiate the offense and hopefully do some

1:28:35

more attacking the basket within a larger role.

1:28:37

Miles McBride was here for me too, as

1:28:40

a guy who struggled from three, 7.3 per 36, 40%

1:28:45

from downtown only played injured in 14 minutes. So

1:28:47

I'm not going to believe the shooting's quite at

1:28:50

this level, but he is really able to get

1:28:52

in the ball. He's more of a one position

1:28:54

guy on the defensive end, but he really can

1:28:56

execute. But it's a good, but it's a good

1:28:58

one position. Like I would rather have a one

1:29:00

position point of attack defender than a

1:29:02

one position, pretty much anywhere other than

1:29:04

five. Vasilier Misiches full season numbers are

1:29:07

skewed by some minutes in OKC playing

1:29:09

off the ball, but I think he's

1:29:11

proven that he is a minimum,

1:29:13

a very solid pick and roll creator as

1:29:15

a backup point guard. Not like a devastating

1:29:17

score inside the arc. We'll see how his

1:29:19

three point shooting comes along is at 28%

1:29:21

on the season. But

1:29:24

I think he's had a pretty decent shooting

1:29:26

track record in Europe, but he's just a

1:29:28

beautiful passer out of the pick and roll and

1:29:30

defensive liability. To be sure he's low, he's 30. But

1:29:33

I think you, if you feel like, Hey, we needed

1:29:35

someone to come in and run our second unit and

1:29:37

for 20 minutes a game, Vasilier Misiches do a really

1:29:39

good job for it. Somebody else in the, like, I

1:29:41

definitely in rotation, but not starter group for me. And

1:29:43

this is like, I mean, he'd be one of the

1:29:45

biggest followers. We're not at that point in this podcast,

1:29:48

but Spencer Dinwiddie, this is just where I ended up

1:29:50

with him. And I don't, I

1:29:52

don't, I don't know where the equilibrium

1:29:54

is on Dinwiddie as an overall player,

1:29:57

but going from where he was with

1:29:59

the net. and the Wizards to basically

1:30:01

like in a rotation but not really a

1:30:03

credible starter is dramatic. Well, he's stuck for

1:30:05

the Wizards but on the Mavs obviously he

1:30:07

was really good and then he went right

1:30:09

back to being terrible with the Nets as

1:30:12

he had been with the Wizards and he

1:30:14

had just the weird lack of aggressiveness that's

1:30:16

continued in an LA uniform. I think he's

1:30:18

solid enough defensively and he still is playing

1:30:21

29 minutes a game usually, 800 minutes a

1:30:23

season. He's

1:30:25

been healthy which has been a problem for him but he

1:30:27

hasn't made the three the way he has in Dallas basically

1:30:30

before or since it's been a long

1:30:32

time anywhere outside of a Dallas

1:30:34

uniform for him to make those and his free throw

1:30:37

rate used to be so good before the second

1:30:39

torn ACL but that is

1:30:41

totally cratered at this point. He's like

1:30:43

an okay passer but not amazing so

1:30:45

you're just kind of like it's really

1:30:47

backup quality offense and like okay defense

1:30:49

is kind of what you're looking at

1:30:51

at this point just kind of more

1:30:53

steady hand than really doing much to

1:30:55

really move the needle but

1:30:58

yeah I did have him as this kind of like

1:31:00

a high-end backup low-end starter can get by

1:31:02

with him and then the last guy I

1:31:04

had in that group was Cole Anthony who

1:31:07

I realized hasn't been as efficient this year

1:31:09

but he's also been asked to do probably

1:31:11

more scoring than is good for him and

1:31:13

I think he's acceptable defensively. He's got decent

1:31:15

enough strength in that's why this is immune

1:31:17

if he's not someone who's amazing on that

1:31:19

end so yeah had him

1:31:21

here and then I kind of get into

1:31:23

another group after this of just like guys

1:31:26

that I just really wouldn't want starting at

1:31:28

all. Who did you have

1:31:30

it was there anyone else that you

1:31:32

kind of had in this range and you know

1:31:34

we're sort of getting a little bit scrambled but

1:31:36

no I think I mean in the I had a

1:31:38

big group of definitely an rotation but not starters

1:31:40

and includes some guys that we've been really high on

1:31:42

in the past and some guys who have risen

1:31:44

to this level so like Jevon Carter I had here

1:31:47

I still I still like him I want I

1:31:49

wish he got more opportunities Peyton Pritchard is here

1:31:51

for me this is where I ended up with T.J.

1:31:53

McConnell you said him mad and I.

1:31:55

McConnell is interesting right like in the regular season even

1:31:57

at 31 he'll come in and change games if you

1:31:59

have valuable player. Yeah, I actually had him

1:32:01

at the moment you get in the playoffs,

1:32:03

you can't play. I had him mature above

1:32:05

in the early stages. I'm like, you know,

1:32:08

I don't trust him as much here. And

1:32:10

the idea that I brought up before with

1:32:12

McConnell that he he's a reserve who's valuable

1:32:14

who you also can't start because it fundamentally

1:32:16

changes your scheme. And so like that, that

1:32:18

that to me is a little bit of

1:32:20

a different conversation. Cole, Anthony, I have here

1:32:22

you brought him up. And there are a

1:32:24

lot of these like defense first type of

1:32:26

players that that end up in the in

1:32:28

this space, you brought up Miles McBride and

1:32:30

Dennis Smith Jr. I still have here, Delaun Wright

1:32:32

I have here. And then I wanted to throw

1:32:34

out a couple of young players that will see

1:32:37

whether they can move past this or not. One

1:32:39

of them is Scoot Henderson, like just what is

1:32:41

what is your two is going to look like?

1:32:43

Will they have a more functional team? I also

1:32:45

have Marcus Sasser here. And this is where I

1:32:47

ended up. He was the baby the most speculative

1:32:49

edition for me. I ended up with Craig Porter

1:32:51

Jr. here. I just like him. I think he's

1:32:53

a good player. I think he can be a

1:32:56

part of a successful rotation, not as a starter,

1:32:58

not as anything like that. But just if

1:33:00

he's on your team, I think he should get

1:33:02

minutes. And that's really what the threshold is for

1:33:04

me here. Yeah, that's that's reasonable. The

1:33:06

three point shooting is pretty much non existent

1:33:09

for him. It's funny, I actually have him

1:33:11

right next to Delaun Wright in my sheet.

1:33:13

And I think those guys have a few

1:33:16

similarities with one another as the athletic kind

1:33:18

of strong point guards who don't really shoot

1:33:20

it at all from downtown. I think

1:33:23

Scoot will play better enough that you know, he's

1:33:25

at least someone you would want in your

1:33:27

rotation. And that's kind of scary that he's this

1:33:29

low right now. But it takes young guys.

1:33:31

So grisly. Yeah, I mean, his his overall

1:33:34

efficiency, but we've seen young point guards have

1:33:36

these disastrous. I mean, there was that year

1:33:38

that I can't remember which stat that was

1:33:40

the deer in Fox was like, by far

1:33:42

the worst in the league. And then of

1:33:45

course, he has risen and all that. Like,

1:33:48

I want to do more film work on scoop.

1:33:50

Like, yeah, he's having an invisible season from an

1:33:52

efficiency standpoint this year, 48% true shooting. But

1:33:55

I I'm starting to see more of what I

1:33:57

liked about him. Yeah, I think he's a good

1:33:59

enough passing. option playmaking usage is above the

1:34:01

positional average and he's been asked that the

1:34:03

blazer situation has been so weird it's been

1:34:05

disjointed for him due to injuries although you

1:34:07

do have to price that in I think

1:34:09

at this point given his history but he's

1:34:11

not gonna have a 20.7% scoring usage he

1:34:13

turns it over it to like

1:34:17

on a real team where he wasn't just being

1:34:20

asked to like continue to grow as a prospect

1:34:22

and he's actually trying to help you win I

1:34:24

think he could throttle it down and be a

1:34:26

decent player. Russell Westbrook also I had it in

1:34:29

this range I think he's a big part

1:34:31

of that is that he's just really really

1:34:33

improved his defense and to

1:34:35

the point where he can switch on to

1:34:38

up to fours and do a credible job he

1:34:40

can get over some screens as well he'll still

1:34:42

get you out in transition of course

1:34:45

his shooting is excreble at this point

1:34:47

and he'll still take enough to kind

1:34:49

of annoy you shooting 27% from

1:34:51

downtown that's that's always it's the

1:34:53

way that his shooting just completely

1:34:55

declined is really a sorry

1:34:58