0:10

Welcome back to the dungeon master's

0:13

block, the place where we come to talk

0:15

about the dungeon master, the most important

0:17

person in the game. With every conversation

0:20

we hope to inspire as many as possible

0:23

268 keep on dungeon

0:25

mastering. I'm one of your

0:27

host, DM Neil aka Jody

0:29

Moniak. And today on this episode,

0:31

we're going to be talking about games that don't

0:33

have anyone running them. It

0:36

could be amazing. It could be the way you take a

0:38

break. It could be a way that you find out who should

0:40

be the person running it in the first

0:42

place. today, we have Michael from the

0:44

RPG Academy back on

0:46

to talk about this and how

0:48

he approaches having a GM

0:50

list or DM list game and

0:53

it is a wonderful conversation that DM Chris

0:55

and I

0:55

have. But

0:56

rather than take any more of your time, let's head,

0:59

to the meet. I'm starving. We

1:02

ain't got nothing but Maggie Brent

1:04

for three, taking days.

1:08

Why can't we have some meats. The

1:10

slight meat back on my menu

1:12

boys.

1:15

Alright. Well, welcome to the

1:17

Meat of the episode here at the

1:19

Dungeon Master's Block. Today, we have a oh,

1:22

too familiar. I don't know if it's too familiar or not

1:24

familiar enough. I don't

1:25

know. We have a familiar face

1:27

with us,

1:27

Michael. Appropriately familiar. Appropriately

1:30

familiar. Not even

1:32

face because can't see you. Just a voice. Listen

1:34

to the voice. I'm the Dutch master's block today.

1:36

Michael Ross is here with us from

1:39

the RPG Academy, and it's

1:41

always pleasure to to have you have

1:43

you on here. You have so many accolades that

1:45

we could tack on to the end of that because

1:47

you've been around this industry for a while and

1:49

had numbers of shows that have started,

1:52

ended, continued on the

1:54

entire time, and you're kind of

1:56

legend in the

1:56

industry. So we're glad to have you on podcast

1:59

with us. Well, I'm excited to

2:01

be here as always. I I have the the

2:03

great fortune of having Neil

2:05

over on my small bill podcast regularly.

2:07

So he and I get to chat you know, every

2:09

four or five months or so about that. But

2:11

you and

2:12

I, unfortunately, has been a little bit further

2:14

between. So happy to be your

2:16

man. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe

2:18

or maybe, like, once a year or so. I think

2:20

we might be on that that sort of pattern. But, yeah,

2:22

it's good to good to have you here. So,

2:25

Michael, one of the questions which you're probably

2:27

familiar with at this point is, are

2:30

there any things that you are currently working

2:32

on? And we always add caveat that

2:34

you can talk about because there are some things that

2:36

you can't talk

2:37

about. So for me, fortunately, I'm

2:40

kind of everything's in house. So

2:42

I kind of I have the freedom to talk about when

2:44

that whenever I want whenever I want to.

2:46

And there's one thing in particular that I'm very

2:48

excited to talk about I'm gonna actually before

2:50

we get to that, I'm gonna give a super short

2:53

plug for a brand new podcast

2:55

that I'm starting. It's actually my first professional

2:59

I guess, and then I'm I got paid to do

3:01

this the same part of an organization called

3:04

Healthy Mines Alliance. It is

3:06

from the Health three sixty organization. It

3:08

is a mental, well-being, mental

3:10

health focused organization. And

3:13

they wanted a podcast So I agree

3:15

they you know, basically I let them know, like, hey, I've been doing

3:17

this for years as a hobby. So they basically

3:19

pay me a little bit to create

3:21

a podcast. It's gonna be a weekly interview

3:24

show with people who are serving through

3:26

the the Americor volunteer program

3:29

as part of Healthy Mines Alliance. I

3:31

do that currently. I'm a I'm a currently member

3:33

already. One of the things I do

3:35

there is I teach youth mental health first aid.

3:38

Which is a course that's designed for adults

3:40

or caregivers of youth like school teachers

3:42

would be an obvious go to coaches. Really,

3:45

but anyone who interacts with youth on daily

3:47

basis how to look for signs of

3:49

mental DMless, mental challenges, distress,

3:52

anxiety, depression, all the way up through,

3:54

you know, self harm, and then how

3:56

to intervene in the immediacy.

3:58

So like first aid for someone who falls and bumps

4:00

their knee, you know, you put ice on it, you call

4:02

a doctor. This is the same sort of thing. If

4:04

someone's like exhibiting behaviors, it makes you think

4:07

they might be deal with something. How do you intervene

4:09

and then get them in contact with professional? It's

4:11

called Healthy Mines Alliance. The

4:13

first episode's gonna come out later in

4:16

March. It's part of mental health awareness

4:18

week through health three sixty. So

4:20

I just would love if people would check that out. It's gonna

4:22

be a very short format, very positive

4:24

focused,

4:25

mental wellness mental well-being podcast.

4:28

Absolutely. Thanks for doing that work, man. That's

4:30

as somebody who also works with you, that's huge.

4:33

I'd greatly appreciate you doing that for

4:34

people. It is very rewarding. III

4:37

have some lived experience with some of the things we

4:39

we teach. And I've lost people

4:41

in my life for some reason. So it

4:43

definitely is something I'm emotionally invested

4:45

in and trying to spread the word. So I was ready

4:48

and eager to do this when they brought it up. That's

4:50

cool. That's awesome. Alright. But

4:52

the real reason I'm here today was only

4:54

because I love you guys. 268 two

4:56

-- Yes. Is because I have finally

4:58

created my own game after

5:01

years and years of hacking other systems and

5:03

basically making everything my own anyways.

5:05

And it went live on Kickstarter as of today

5:07

that we're recording. That's February twenty eighth. I

5:09

don't know exactly when this will come out. It's

5:11

gonna run for twenty two days, so it will

5:14

end on March twenty second, and

5:16

it is called Action twelve

5:17

Cinema. It's DMless zero

5:20

prep game about telling over

5:22

the top action movie style stories

5:24

using handfuls of

5:25

d twelve dice. Everybody's favorite dice.

5:28

Every it should be. It's the best time. It's

5:30

the pinnacle of the Polycom. Was that

5:31

you? We were having the the argument

5:33

with d twelve. Yeah. Yeah. That was me.

5:35

Yeah. I'm consistent about it. I do I do

5:37

love the d twelve.

5:38

There you go. Yeah. And then doesn't

5:40

Tom hate he's just contrary

5:43

by nature. He he will argue any side

5:45

of any argument if he give him a chance. It was like when

5:47

people used to pick on each other in elementary school,

5:49

it really meant that you liked them. So in

5:51

his picking on the d

5:52

twelve, it really means he likes them.

5:54

I I think yeah. think it's right. I

5:56

think one of my arguments I can't even

5:59

remember if this is a four or against one

6:01

of my arguments was that the d twelve is

6:03

the best d four. It is. Yes.

6:06

When you because you replace the sides and then

6:08

you just have the ones I have are roman numerals

6:10

and they're great for the kids

6:12

and, you know, magic missiles and all those things.

6:14

So, yeah, the d twelve also makes the best

6:16

And the best D6I was gonna say that you double

6:18

d sixes. Yep.

6:20

So then the d twenty is best d ten.

6:22

I

6:22

mean, that's how it originally started whether you took

6:24

your crayo -- Yeah.

6:25

Yeah. -- marked marked marked them

6:27

off the right way.

6:27

Anyways, we didn't come to talk about d

6:29

twelve.

6:30

A way I

6:30

did, but the only only Michael did.

6:33

Yes. Yep. And I'm sure we'll

6:35

get more into it because with the

6:37

topic we have at hand. But for the surprise

6:39

question, Yes. I had I

6:41

came up with something. So

6:44

as a frequent

6:45

guest, I feel like you have heard yourself

6:48

a golden jacket. Like,

6:49

golden We have these, which is like the five

6:51

times we have those. Sure. I mean, the

6:53

dungeon masters masters, if we ever

6:55

do a golf outing, Yeah. Dash.

6:58

If you check under your chair right now

6:59

Oh, it's

7:00

looking amazing. He's wearing it. No one can stop

7:02

his audio video. Yes.

7:07

So with the golden jacket, do

7:09

you so that's this is an

7:11

S and L reference, basically someone that's been on

7:13

five times. Receive the golden jacket.

7:15

Do you know who those people are?

7:17

And if so, like, who's your favorite SNL

7:20

guest that has a jacket?

7:22

Oh, wow. Because that happened

7:24

recently. Someone got one

7:26

and then, like, all the others came on there. And I

7:28

believe Steve Martin is

7:31

one of the five comers. Yep. And I

7:33

love Steve Martin. And I mean, from

7:35

wait. Like, the I still referenced the jerk.

7:38

In half the D and D games I

7:39

play, there's a reference about the new film books

7:41

appearing, and I don't need anything except this

7:43

and this and this. But the that

7:45

new show that he did with Martin

7:47

Shore and Warner and that's like, oh, yes.

7:50

love that show. So I'm sure

7:52

there are others, but my my vote is gonna be

7:54

for Steve Martin. Barton Short.

7:56

So he had a crazy story encounter with

7:58

Chance or Apple the other day. You guys

8:00

hear about this? That's also

8:02

a chance. He, like, gave his seat up Yes. -- for sensitive

8:05

kids and his daughter were on a

8:07

flight and they weren't sitting together. And so Martin

8:09

Short was on the same flight and gave up his

8:11

seat either next to his daughter

8:13

or next to Chance in order that they could sit next

8:15

to each

8:15

other. And then Chance Rapper goes on

8:17

Twitter and says thank you Jack Frost for giving

8:20

up your seat. Nice.

8:22

Perfect. So you

8:24

actually chose the second spot.

8:27

The the second highest

8:30

returning guest. So Steve Martin is at

8:32

sixteen. But we're we're

8:34

going to segue into our topic of hand and

8:36

you had referenced

8:37

it. Because you alluded to AGM

8:40

list game with Zero Prep,

8:42

and I

8:42

feel like that is the episode before

8:44

us. So,

8:46

hey, we prepped me. One of the big questions we

8:49

yeah. We talked about it. I text you.

8:51

But one of the big things that we ask

8:53

now is, like, what who's put

8:55

that on your mind as a topic

8:57

that you want to kinda introduce to people? I mean,

8:59

obviously, it's something that's on

9:01

your mind enough to create a game. Without

9:03

a GM.

9:04

Right. But, like, yeah. So kinda what is what

9:06

did you thought process about that discussion? So

9:09

and I've kind of worked myself backwards

9:12

into this But we've

9:14

talked about this for years on the RPG Economy

9:16

Podcasts. Like, how do you get better

9:19

at being a DM? And there's lots of things

9:21

you can do. You can learn to prep better. You

9:23

can learn to take notes better. You can learn to

9:25

design and counters better. But one of the things

9:27

we constantly talk about is how do you learn to improv?

9:30

How do you learn to just take

9:32

something someone says that you didn't plan

9:34

for and roll it into the

9:36

story, build off of it, and

9:38

keep things moving without it just, you know,

9:40

completely derailing an adventure. And

9:43

it's really hard to teach someone

9:45

to be better at improv outside of saying,

9:47

take an improv. Class. Like, you know, there are classes

9:49

that you can take to do that or just

9:51

do it. Like, you just have 268, like, start

9:54

doing more of it in your games and slowly you

9:56

will get better at it. So in the process

9:58

of, like, designing this game and and playing

10:00

other games and just being more and more around the g

10:02

DMless of, you know, design

10:05

it hit me like that's what a DMless

10:07

game is, really. It's an improv

10:10

machine. It's a diem training machine.

10:13

Because where you don't have a GM, you don't

10:15

have one person in

10:16

control, it kinda leans

10:18

towards more silly, which means you

10:20

don't have to be so worried about introducing something that's

10:22

gonna be game because you're not doing it in the middle

10:24

of a campaign

10:25

or ask somebody to pick up a really serious

10:27

storyline that you just created. Yeah.

10:30

Exactly. So you kinda have

10:32

the freedom to go big if you want

10:34

to without a lot worried about destroying

10:36

something that's gonna, you know, ten sessions

10:38

later. And in in

10:40

particular, my game and I'm not saying my game is the only one

10:42

that does it, but this I have a lot of experience with my

10:44

game. The way our dice mechanics

10:47

work you can basically

10:49

describe whatever you want to have happen happen.

10:51

But you get to determine when you roll

10:53

the dice and the dice determine if what you said happen

10:55

actually help or not. Basically, that's how the g list

10:58

works in my game. So if you think of

11:00

it in this way so it's

11:02

meant so let's say that we're doing a car chase.

11:04

That could be one of the obstacles that happens in my

11:06

game. It's very classic movie action sort

11:08

of situation. The you know, you've probably

11:10

seen this happen in a lot different movies where

11:13

someone probably a cop, holds up their

11:15

badge and gun, and, like, flags down a car,

11:17

and then, like, gets in the car. They, like, you know,

11:19

there's a word for that. I can't think about it. Now, a comedy

11:21

or vehicle. Right? If it's

11:24

a buddy cop movie, maybe the other person stays

11:26

in the car or even draws for them. I don't know. You

11:28

do you. But then they're driving down

11:30

through the city streets or we've been in and out traffic.

11:32

They might be running some red lights. They

11:34

eventually get up on the highway and they start trying

11:36

to ramp this car off the road

11:38

and then it hits into the water barrels at like

11:41

a intersection, you know, there's this big water balloon.

11:43

You've probably seen that in thousand different shows.

11:45

So you can absolutely do that in my game.

11:48

And you could wait till the very end and

11:50

say, okay, I'm gonna roll my dice now and

11:52

see if this helped, but you've

11:54

already narrated that the entire chase

11:56

has basically happened. So you

11:58

then are challenged with, well, what if I roll

12:00

really poorly, and it turns out

12:03

the chase isn't over. How does that

12:05

work? And you have be able to think on your feet and go, okay.

12:07

Well, maybe I've got the wrong car. You know,

12:09

maybe they switched cars somewhere and I didn't realize

12:11

it. Maybe there's a decoy car. Or

12:14

maybe you ran them off the road, but then they've now

12:16

jumped off the interchange, and they're now

12:18

on, like, a train that was going underneath,

12:21

like, a trussle situation. Anyhow, however

12:23

you wanna figure out, you gotta figure out how to make sense.

12:25

But the real key to this is

12:27

that you could choose to roll at any point

12:29

along that story, and

12:32

that will determine different things.

12:34

Like, if you rolled right away, the first thing you

12:36

rolled, and you rolled really well, then

12:38

maybe the person who stopped when you tried to come into

12:40

your vehicle was like a muscle car. So you're

12:42

now like a Ford GT,

12:44

I don't know cars. That's like really big and

12:46

powerful. So it's gonna be easier to catch up. That's

12:48

why you your head in the chase mechanics.

12:50

Or if you roll really poorly, maybe the only

12:53

schmuck that would pull over was on a moped. You

12:55

know, so now you're leaning on to the comedy of it.

12:57

Or maybe you don't roll there, but you roll when you're weaving

12:59

in and out traffic, if you roll well. Yeah. You weaving

13:01

in and out traffic, you run red lights or things. It's fine.

13:03

If you roll poorly, Maybe you get in an accident

13:05

because you try to run a red light and now you have to

13:07

switch cars and that's why you're little bit behind

13:09

in the math. So if you think

13:11

about this like you have the ability in my

13:13

game in and others to decide when you

13:15

roll and when you roll gives you

13:17

different sets of criteria for how you

13:20

determine success and

13:21

failure. It's it's giving you

13:23

all these opportunities to practice improv basically.

13:25

I just I couldn't help get out of my mind. Either

13:27

you're having a fast and furious scenario where

13:30

the driving is amazing or you're having, like, was

13:32

it the other guys with Will Farrell and

13:34

not at Walbridge? Yeah. Just distinct

13:36

she liked the economy between the two of

13:37

those. And either would

13:40

be

13:40

a good touch point for Action twelve.

13:42

Either would be a great reference, and everybody

13:44

would have fun.

13:45

And obviously, the rock and Nebula

13:47

object and just rolled extremely low when

13:49

they jumped out that building. Yeah.

13:52

You think of what I'm thinking? Ain't for the bushes.

13:54

That was for the bushes.

13:55

One of the biggest twists in a movie

13:57

that I was so prepared for It took

13:59

so long. It took so long for them to

14:01

fall. Yeah. And it's whether whether

14:03

you can handle your gun or you're doing a desk pop

14:05

off. You know, one one or two things is gonna

14:07

happen. Oh, no. So good. Yeah. Well,

14:10

and I I my first thought is is

14:12

almost immediately, like, how would that apply

14:15

to, like, your d and d campaign, especially

14:17

I think it works really well, especially if you're thinking

14:19

about a way to make

14:22

exploration more interesting. Exploration

14:24

travel, you know, the the three pillars blah blah blah.

14:26

One is exploration. Oftentimes, what

14:28

do you do? You you don't wanna feel too heavy handed.

14:31

They're just like, I mean, it's hard because

14:33

you're like, okay, roll and everyone's like, well,

14:35

I hope I don't get a bad number because

14:37

then -- Yeah. -- something random is gonna happen. But

14:39

if you already know what the the goals in the destinations

14:42

are, let's say, I'm in town.

14:44

I know the dead engine is x miles

14:46

away. We all need to go there. And then

14:48

we start rolling. Is it

14:49

eventful? Is it not eventful?

14:51

Is it feel like when you

14:53

start to ask for percentage dies

14:55

or certain things like that? It just tips your

14:57

hand a little bit much. So if you have more

15:00

of a system of success failure

15:02

instead of something nothing,

15:04

Maybe that's

15:05

where

15:05

my problem is. But,

15:06

yes, it it will do that because, again,

15:08

we know the destination. If we know where the party

15:10

wants to go, Right. It's just how harrowing

15:13

is it for them to get

15:14

there. Yeah. I think it doesn't it doesn't

15:16

map on perfectly to a game like d and d, which

15:18

is traditional game with AGM that

15:21

They're just presenting the game in a lot of aspects

15:23

to the stimulus style. But I would think of

15:25

it as so we know we wanna get to the

15:27

cave of wonders. And we know we want

15:30

there to be something that happens on the way, but we don't

15:32

exactly know why. We just think it'd be too boring to be

15:34

like, okay, you're there. So then you maybe

15:36

you roll. If you roll really well, you come up with

15:38

something that's been official to them. They meet a

15:40

helpful NPC. They find something on

15:42

the road that tells them a secret about the

15:44

cave of wonders or a secret entrance or

15:46

a hint to a riddle they might encounter. If they

15:48

roll really poorly, maybe it's an encounter

15:51

or a fight that waste their resources,

15:53

or maybe you just narrate that, like, they got lost.

15:55

So it took them two extra days to get there.

15:57

It just kinda gives you an idea of, like, playing around

15:59

with, I know something's gonna happen,

16:01

but I'm gonna decide in the moment if it's

16:03

good or bad or or, you know,

16:06

difficult or easy or a combat

16:08

or a role play situation, kinda

16:11

testing yourself out to give yourself that

16:13

ability to try that knowing

16:15

that if it doesn't work perfectly, they're still gonna

16:17

get to capable wonders. That's really the adventure we're getting

16:19

to anyways. But I'm gonna test myself

16:21

to see if I can come up in the moment something good

16:24

or bad based on some

16:25

rules. Yeah. I was thinking too

16:27

even I mean, indeed indeed,

16:29

yes, there is the typical DM

16:31

that runs the game. Right? And I was I was thinking

16:33

about this on my way home from work today of just

16:35

thinking how could you run? Because

16:38

you need and it's very basic

16:40

understanding as most roleplaying games are a

16:42

set of rules to be able to run a game. Right? There's

16:45

mechanics to make it work. And I

16:47

was like, I wonder

16:49

what a game would look like if

16:52

players all had things that they wanted to

16:54

do, like say somebody

16:56

wants to go to a magic shop. Like, your

16:58

wizard wants to go to a magic shop, and

17:00

it's the rest of the party's table to then

17:02

say, okay, who wants to roleplay that

17:04

magic shop? You know, who wants to come up with the

17:06

name, who wants come up with the NBC. I was about because

17:09

I think the thing that players often struggle

17:11

with, especially think when they're

17:13

new, if they don't have a theater background, is

17:15

how do we actually become comfortable

17:18

role playing when we may get, like,

17:20

one or two opportunities outside of battle a session

17:23

268 role play. And

17:25

usually, they're not very long. They're like, okay. You're

17:27

camping at night. You're with another

17:29

person in your party. What do you wanna talk about?

17:32

And usually, it's like, I don't know. Like,

17:35

how's your family? You know? Like -- Yeah. --

17:37

what's going on with you? Oh, your family's dead,

17:39

great. Okay. Well, I don't know where to go there because I

17:41

don't role play very often, you know. Mhmm.

17:43

But giving your players the opportunity, even

17:45

if you have a DM to make it more

17:48

DMless, maybe not fully DM

17:50

lists, but to say, like, DM's have

17:52

a lot on their play and even to say, like,

17:54

okay, who wants to take role playing that scenario?

17:56

You know? Wants to make

17:59

up stuff and create a because then you're just having

18:01

more buy in and it's not exactly

18:03

g m list, but it's more

18:05

g m list at that make sense, you know,

18:08

to help that improv part of

18:09

it. Yeah. I've experiment with that a

18:11

little bit. I know other tables have done that as

18:13

well, and usually that comes up when you do,

18:15

like, you were saying you have AAA party

18:18

split situation where you have one

18:20

player that wants to do one thing and one player wants to

18:22

do the other. And it would be boring for

18:24

the other one to just sit there for half an hour

18:26

while the wizard goes and shops at the wizard shop

18:28

and be boring while the, you know, the other person

18:30

goes 268, like, the fighter guild and tries to get

18:33

level up or advancement, whatever. So you

18:35

get everyone at the table involved in both. So

18:37

we're we're rebilling with the wizard character, but everyone

18:39

still gets to play. You're the shopkeeper. You're

18:42

maybe you're the the tread upon assistant.

18:44

Maybe you're someone else who's a customer who's already

18:46

in line and is frustrated that

18:49

they're helping you instead of them or, you know, whatever

18:51

the case may be. Does everyone gets a role? Everyone gets

18:53

a role play a little bit? You give them the freedom

18:55

to be as as involved or as not involved

18:57

268 they feel comfortable, you know, set like

19:00

a twenty minute time limit. I'll I'll say set a timer,

19:02

but, you know, in your head, keep a clock of how long

19:04

this is gonna go. But that way, no one is

19:06

just, like, waiting around. Everyone gets

19:08

a chance to play all the time.

19:10

Yeah. Because I imagine even even in the system

19:12

that, like, you've created with

19:14

Action twelve Cinema. Like, there's probably gotta

19:16

be moments where players

19:19

so I mean, you talked about, like, in travel, for

19:21

example, where you go and you get this helpful piece of

19:23

information. Right? Like, what's

19:25

to say that that doesn't that piece of

19:27

information, another player doesn't wanna pick up

19:29

on and make a whole separate quest

19:31

out of

19:31

-- Mhmm. -- you know, like and then it's like,

19:33

okay. How do we hand that off to

19:35

other people to run that part of it?

19:38

You know, like, what are what are we doing to

19:40

chase that rabbit hole now? You know? Like,

19:42

it could just be really, really fun to

19:44

give your players the creative

19:46

license to think outside the box for

19:48

some of those things too. I think it just all helps. Like

19:50

you said, like, instead of saying, hey, go to an improv

19:53

class. Right. You're actually getting to help

19:55

them think like that at your

19:56

table, which is kinda cool. And I've, you

19:58

know, I've said this for for years that playing

20:01

other games has made me a better DMless

20:03

playing non d and d games makes me a better

20:05

DM4D and d games. Playing

20:08

g DMless games are gonna help you be better

20:10

player or a DM in any

20:12

game that you wanna play. So

20:14

I just again, I just encourage people to try

20:17

GM plus Games just for

20:19

any reason they're fun, I think so anyways.

20:21

They're they're different than they're again, there's

20:23

sort of like a not really a guilt free,

20:25

but a risk free opportunity 268

20:27

just go big and really just ham it up

20:29

and role play as silly as you wanna

20:31

be. And then learn things and then

20:33

apply them back to your home game. Another

20:36

format that I think of in

20:39

not having much experience myself, but I think

20:41

about how applicable it would be 268, like, a

20:43

West March style game. Because in the in

20:45

the scenario, if you already have a group

20:47

of players coming to the table

20:49

with an idea of what that group actually wants

20:51

to accomplish in the first place, but what if

20:54

there's no one to DM them at

20:56

that time. Could they then sustain

20:58

themselves by figuring out, okay, well, we

21:00

all agreed what we want to accomplish

21:03

what's stopping us from figuring that

21:05

out as we go and, you know, collectively

21:07

deciding. Because that's what it ultimately ends up being

21:09

is everyone's collectively deciding what's

21:12

going to happen rather than one person kind

21:14

of being that that go

21:16

to point. But here, I think a West

21:18

March game would be really interesting where you have

21:21

players especially if it's non

21:23

combat scenarios or if

21:25

it's, you know, certain aspects that

21:27

they would be able to do a DMless game

21:29

on their own. And then basically report

21:31

back to the collective West March

21:34

group. Oh, we we accomplished x,

21:36

y, and z. I mean, there's a lot of, like, solo

21:38

games as well and you could probably sort of mix

21:40

and match little bit, like, you know,

21:42

take a solo games mechanics for, like,

21:44

rolling for the difficulty, the tops

21:46

of encounters that you, you know, you encounter.

21:49

Any sort of rewards that you get, but then still

21:51

rather than just like journaling, which is very

21:53

common in solo games, you actually role play them out

21:56

with the other players. I I think the

21:58

the danger with that is if you have, like, a long

22:00

term sustained campaign -- Okay. -- and think

22:02

DND, and then there's a DM

22:04

who's like, okay, you know, at this level, I I expect

22:06

them to go do and do that and and the other.

22:08

But you have this very free form

22:11

process. They might get

22:13

well 268 advanced in level or power

22:15

before they get back to your thing because they're having

22:17

all it's like

22:17

basically, like, when you play a video game and you do all

22:20

the side quests before you go to the main quests. Oh.

22:22

Yeah. Hans me. Don't talk about I'm

22:26

playing through Spider Man right now in anticipation

22:28

of the Spider Man 268 coming out later this

22:29

year. So, yeah, I'm side questing everything. Yep. I've

22:32

brought this up several times, so long term listeners

22:34

will know their story all too well. But as

22:37

a person who I played

22:39

oblivion, I watched a buddy play and he did

22:41

the main quest, And so that when I picked it up,

22:43

I was like, oh, I'm not that interested. These side quests

22:45

seem more more fun. So I fast

22:47

travel into the arena. I

22:49

killed the guy at the end because he asked you 268,

22:52

then I was approached by the guy who was in charge of

22:54

the thieves guild, but he's invisible. I didn't know who

22:56

he was. I killed him too. I

22:58

basically became a an NPC in

23:00

a game because now I can't buy thieves tools

23:02

or interact with that quest in any way

23:04

should perform because it killed the NPC. I

23:07

proceeded to go do every other quest imaginable.

23:09

And when I went back to the main quest, it

23:12

had outleveled me and I

23:13

died. So I was like,

23:14

well, no.

23:15

I have literally no idea what the main quest for oblivion

23:17

is. I know all the side quests. So I was

23:19

like, in Skyrim, like, if you didn't go to waste

23:21

run right away or whatever that first town

23:23

was, like, dragons just never

23:26

appeared in the world. Like, the

23:28

first one would, but then you would never

23:30

see another dragon. And that was what I did the first

23:32

time through the game. Was I

23:34

never went there, never talked to the

23:36

the king there, and I just

23:38

did a bunch of side quests with never experiencing

23:41

a

23:41

dragon. It was weird. Very weird.

23:43

Oh, so

23:45

and and those are the kind like, you know, we bring

23:47

that up. But, like, I think

23:49

it fits because those are the kind of things that you

23:51

could probably do, especially if you're trying to

23:53

adapt a GM scenario, to

23:55

your d and d campaign. You have to do things that

23:57

basically they do something and

23:59

everyone has

24:00

fun, but it's not this really plot

24:03

main story heavy kind of situation

24:06

because

24:06

-- Mhmm. -- if it is that longer running campaign,

24:08

there are those threads and those pieces, that

24:10

that, you know, your DM would

24:13

want to keep going forward. But it is

24:15

really interesting to get a table set up

24:17

so that you know, let's let's say,

24:19

I can't make it. But to the session,

24:22

something comes up, but everyone else is still available.

24:24

You know, our go to our go to for

24:26

my table is that we play board games

24:28

if too few people are there.

24:31

But with this scenario, there's nothing to say,

24:33

oh, because you could also go backwards

24:36

to go forwards. You know, you have a flashback

24:38

scenario to say that, like, keep when

24:40

we were in the town, last time,

24:43

this is what these are the antics that we

24:45

got up 268. Because you know where you have

24:47

to be, because you're already there,

24:49

and you know where you came from. So you're just writing,

24:51

like, a little side story

24:54

with without your g m or d m

24:56

at the table. Well, And is that the way,

24:58

like, if they missed something that could have been

25:00

potentially important that then they're gaining

25:02

some of that knowledge that maybe, like, like,

25:05

rolling when you're on your way to the temple

25:07

or the cave of wonders where we were calling it

25:09

earlier.

25:09

Yeah. You

25:10

get the helpful piece of information. Maybe it

25:12

was back in this other town, as Bartender

25:14

mentioned something back in the

25:16

day, that could lead to that piece of information.

25:18

If you have two people two few people, coming

25:20

to the table. I think it could be a really fun

25:23

experiment if you're nervous about running

25:25

AGM list game. It could be a really fun

25:27

way to experiment

25:30

with what that could look like at your table

25:33

with not having massive ramifications

25:36

because clearly you're not gonna kill the players

25:39

because they're still going

25:42

on in the

25:42

future? Or are we creating multiverse

25:44

of Madden

25:45

stuff by going back? Yep.

25:47

It's a really bad dream. You both woke up.

25:50

It was a really bad dream, you know. Yeah. It

25:52

didn't didn't didn't happen. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah.

25:54

Blah. Blah. Yeah. But I did I

25:56

think that's interesting from the concept as

25:58

a DM intentionally leaving

26:01

holes in your story. To

26:03

be filled later by these sort of, like,

26:06

outside retro retcons

26:08

or a situation. So, like, saying, like, yeah, you

26:10

spend a a night at the bar we're not

26:12

really on deal with it, but you were there last night.

26:14

And then that gives you a whole night to play

26:16

around within the future if you wanted

26:18

to do those sorts of things. It gets So I don't know

26:20

if I would like that or not, but I just I think it's an interesting

26:23

concept to think about intentionally leaving

26:25

holes like

26:25

that. Yeah. I was reading because, you know, I had never heard

26:27

of them with March's style before. Game,

26:29

and I was just reading about it. And I was like, in a

26:31

way, if you were doing that with your players, like, hey, not

26:34

everybody can make it tonight. You're

26:36

in a sense kind of given the opportunity

26:38

to do an inter party West March's

26:40

style where it's like, okay. For those

26:42

of you that can get tonight, go back through your notes.

26:45

Are there any things that you would have wanted

26:47

to explore back in

26:49

the past when we were in such and such a town

26:51

or whatever it was that maybe to

26:53

the opportunity because then your players

26:55

are coming back to the table with new information and

26:57

getting really excited and then it could

26:59

possibly create more excitement for

27:02

those off nights for people too

27:04

could be really fun. Especially, and give you the opportunity

27:07

to explore it as AGML style night

27:09

because you may have forgotten about

27:11

it at that

27:12

point, and they weren't gonna go back to it. So

27:15

Oh, well, I also think of, like, it it

27:17

makes for what?

27:20

It it makes for a more logical

27:22

explanation for one of the most hand wavy

27:24

scenarios that you find yourself as a DM.

27:27

We're deep deep within the cave of

27:29

wonders. We haven't seen the light of day for a week.

27:31

And

27:31

then Wizard just disappears for a while.

27:33

Yep. But don't worry. He magically reappears.

27:36

Later on because I

27:38

don't know. I didn't really wanna deal with, you know, this

27:40

person's character without them. That

27:42

feels weird, but also, like, that I wanna

27:44

counterbalance the fact that there's not another character

27:46

here. None of that none of that applies when

27:49

we're reconning back to

27:51

go into the

27:53

town and basically say, okay, the

27:55

three of us went and did something. The

27:57

fourth and fifth person are asleep

27:59

or they're taking extra time at

28:02

dinner or they're doing all these other

28:04

things and leave you know, just kinda leaving

28:06

that back behind. Because I do feel

28:08

like It is one of the most hand waving

28:10

things I have ever done as a DM

28:12

is just just kind of saying, they're

28:14

not here, but they'll be here if

28:16

they show up to the next session. We all

28:18

just accept.

28:20

And that's how I handle that. Like, it's

28:22

not the most satisfying from a narrative

28:25

standpoint, but you know, we've we've

28:27

talked on our show a bit

28:29

about, like, one of the worst campaigns I ever

28:31

played

28:31

in. When I first met Jared and Brad,

28:33

we've kinda came friends through that Well,

28:36

I'll say a bad experience. Shared

28:38

trauma is what that's Yeah. Shared trauma. But

28:41

one of the things that that Deem did is they did

28:43

come up with a narrative reason every

28:45

single time a certain player

28:48

wouldn't be there. And

28:50

it became frustrating for those of us who

28:52

were there most of the time that so

28:54

much of the table time was

28:57

spent with the character that wasn't there.

28:59

It's like it's almost like they were being rewarded

29:02

for being missing because they became more important

29:04

than those of us who were actually there. So I

29:06

so I'm I'm big pro of the like, they're there.

29:09

Just hand waving away. They're they're like they're kind

29:11

of misty. Like, they're there. If you you talk them. They

29:13

have items you can borrow them, but they're not gonna die everyone

29:15

dies. They're not gonna get I do milestones.

29:18

But, like, they're not gonna get any loot type of

29:20

a thing. But when they show up next week,

29:22

they're just gonna be there because it's just easier than

29:24

trying to figure out why they were summoned

29:26

to the court of the wizard council you

29:29

know, against their will, and they did this had this

29:31

whole side quest for a week. And then,

29:33

like, their their adventure was more interested than

29:35

ours, and they weren't even like, I just there's

29:37

probably a good way to do it. I'm not saying you

29:39

couldn't, but my my experience

29:41

is just easier and in my opinion

29:43

better, just be like they're there, but just hand waving

29:45

it. I'm I'm fine with that. Because, yeah,

29:47

the only other thing I could think of is

29:50

I thought of, like, DMPC, but then calling

29:52

it APPC because

29:54

then it's a player's PC, but they like, you

29:56

put them on auto autopilot, have static

29:59

damage roles, have or just constantly

30:01

give the help action on their turn,

30:03

things like that. But the other one that

30:05

The other thing that came up was the

30:08

flashbacks, mechanic that

30:10

happens in games. Most notably,

30:12

in my mind, is a, like, a blades in the dark.

30:14

Game where you have the prospects. This

30:16

could be perfect for that to say that let's

30:18

say they come to you know, I

30:21

I like that we're using the case of one Also, I'm terrified

30:23

that there are wanda wonders in here, which

30:25

actually gave our players that recently just

30:27

because I think it's really funny. I'm

30:29

sure I'm destined to regret it soon

30:31

enough. But if we're in the cave of wonders and

30:33

we come across this ornate door

30:36

that has all these complex rooms

30:38

and everything like that, you could

30:40

then have that session that is without,

30:43

you know, DMless where they

30:45

figure out, oh, I remember that.

30:47

From that one time, we went

30:50

268 this one place, and then you have that flashback

30:52

session 268 get that information so

30:54

that they're more prepared for what's in front of them.

30:57

Which is great because, you know,

30:59

you never you have no idea how well

31:02

that puzzle will

31:03

go. Yeah. I I actually think that's a

31:05

really that's a really interesting idea because

31:07

we've talked about puzzles lot on our show as well is that

31:09

usually they end one of two ways. Someone

31:11

immediately knows the answer, or no

31:13

one will ever figure it out no longer how how long

31:15

we stand here. Correct. So it it's

31:17

like this frustration, but that could be

31:19

way that, like, if they don't just get it, like, you know,

31:21

maybe you expect them to get it, but they don't.

31:24

Rather than saying, okay. Roll Arkana. Okay.

31:26

You know the answer. Do the okay. Well,

31:28

we're gonna do a flashback. We're gonna you're gonna you

31:30

rolled Arkana and you passed. We're gonna

31:32

tell the story of how you learn that. We're only just

31:34

like a fifteen minute improv. You're this

31:36

wizard. You're that wizard. And

31:39

make it like a fun, silly role play moment

31:41

to figure out what essentially was a skill

31:43

check. So you're getting to interject role play

31:45

instead of just accepting that d twenty

31:47

plus ten role and it'd be in

31:49

nineteen, so you pass. I think I think

31:51

you've also hit on

31:53

one of the other really important pieces

31:56

of this. Because a lot of

31:58

people oh, man. I hate this. Sometimes

32:00

it just it's like, you have these revelations, sometimes

32:03

we're just like, why wasn't it out doing things? This

32:05

way, the whole time oh, why did

32:07

I not codify it with, you know, with

32:09

with better language like we're gonna do now?

32:12

We're a lot of talk about, like,

32:14

one of their most memorable

32:16

moments is when they're not doing

32:18

anything -- Mhmm. -- when they're watching their

32:21

when essentially they're sitting at DMless

32:23

table and just watching it play out

32:25

before

32:25

them.

32:26

All of this conversation starts to lend itself

32:28

towards having those moments at the table,

32:31

Maybe it's not an entire session. Maybe it's fifteen

32:33

to thirty minutes where you've basically

32:35

given them the tools to then

32:37

have what is AGM list

32:39

mini session. Where, you know,

32:42

you're the five wizards with the

32:44

party wizard, and all of you are

32:46

going to discuss this elaborate scenario,

32:50

you all can see where you need to go.

32:52

How did you get there? And

32:55

then then you just watch and

32:57

hope Yeah. -- it's like a little,

32:59

you know, community theater just

33:02

for you. Yeah.

33:03

Perfect. That's That's the goal.

33:05

I figured it out. That's the ultimate goal.

33:08

Yeah. Now I do really like that idea of

33:10

taking a puzzle that's not going well and

33:12

turning it into a really fun role play

33:14

session. Like, you know what? That we

33:17

we thought we were gonna do this,

33:19

hard last but now we're into role play territory,

33:21

which is not a favorite place to be in town. We're

33:24

gonna do ten, fifteen minutes of just zany

33:26

role play because it doesn't really matter as long as

33:28

at the end of it, you You know that the answer is twenty

33:30

seven. You know it's twenty seven because you wrote really well

33:32

in told you, the answer is twenty seven. But let's roleplay

33:34

how we how you knew that. And then it

33:36

could be the barbarian next time. It could be the

33:38

Ranger next time. Like, how do you know these are albatim

33:41

or albatim

33:42

tracks? Well, let me tell you about the first

33:44

time I've had an albatim

33:45

and then you know, do do do do

33:47

do we're doing flashbacks, and then we have a little

33:49

fifteen minute scene with everybody being a

33:51

ranger, maybe one person's the albert. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.,

33:54

you know,

33:54

that can be fun. That sounds like a terrible

33:57

drunken story that you would hear at a bar. Let me

33:59

tell you about the time I met an

34:00

albert. It's called the cocaine

34:03

albert. Yeah. That

34:05

is a that is a cinematic masterpiece.

34:09

I don't see it. And I

34:11

caution listeners, cocaine

34:13

beer, is an r rated film,

34:15

268

34:15

more series and -- Yeah. -- mainly

34:18

for violence and gore.

34:20

But if if you're okay with those things, I

34:23

suggest you watch the film. It

34:26

it subverted my expectations in

34:28

wonderful ways. And all I could think

34:30

of the age was, you know what? This was

34:32

someone's job. They wouldn't even work days

34:35

or weeks on end and made

34:37

this CGI bear. CGI

34:39

bear look better than it should. Absolutely

34:42

better than it should.

34:43

So, yes, oh, gosh, cocaine

34:46

out there. I saw I saw meme the

34:48

other day that was like this sad Coca

34:50

Cola polar bear back in the day that said the other

34:52

Coke bear got a

34:53

movie. Nice.

34:57

Perfect. It's wild.

34:59

Well, I don't I don't know where we go from

35:01

there, but I really don't. I well,

35:03

I'll just do a quick plug for caticon. I

35:05

can mention what you Both have helped me

35:08

mention that before. Commissions are a great

35:10

place to try out games like this because you're

35:12

not already taken away from your established setting.

35:14

You know, you're gonna have two or three days or maybe it's

35:17

just a one day pass. Go play things

35:19

you don't normally play, whether it's GMS

35:21

or not. But look for that as an opportunity.

35:23

It's like a very low risk, you

35:25

know, chance someone's gonna teach you the game.

35:27

If you don't have to buy it, you don't have to try to teach

35:29

it to your other friends. And again,

35:32

if it's great, fantastic. You've learned things that you

35:34

can apply to your d and d or your other traditional

35:36

games. And if it was terrible, it's

35:38

268 three hours out of your life, you probably find some

35:40

way to still have fun even if the game itself isn't.

35:42

So I'm a big proponent of going to conventions and

35:44

playing things that you don't normally play.

35:46

Yeah. The the big one for me is,

35:48

like, that really stretched me as a

35:51

d you know, DMGM was

35:53

masks. Because you don't roll. Like,

35:56

as the person running the game, you don't roll.

35:58

You just call for roles based

36:00

on what's happening. And then you move forward.

36:03

In whatever direction based on the roles of the players.

36:05

But essentially, I don't I

36:07

don't need dice as the

36:09

person running it, which is it

36:12

is the most difficult concept I

36:14

have ever walked through in

36:16

a game because it was just

36:18

a stumbling block constantly to say, okay,

36:20

I don't need to roll. I don't need to roll. But

36:22

the big learning thing in there is, okay,

36:25

but then that's putting my brain

36:27

in the space to say, okay, but then what do you need

36:29

to do as a player? What do you what can I

36:31

provide? What additional information can I provide

36:33

you as a player? I'm not just a map.

36:35

I'm not just a calculator. You

36:37

know, to say that sometimes I

36:39

feel that way in combat. Like, I I get

36:42

to calculation mode because so many

36:44

things are going on. But with masks,

36:46

I'm never that way because I'm only asking,

36:48

okay. Well, then what did you wanna do?

36:50

Okay. Go ahead and roll this. Okay. Well,

36:52

you succeeded or failed or partial success.

36:55

Then this happens. Okay. Next player, what

36:57

do you wanna do? Then you roll these dice.

37:00

So yeah. I mean, in a in a lot of ways,

37:02

you know, that starts to lean towards journalists

37:04

because that person. Again,

37:07

they don't even need dice.

37:08

Yeah. I I still get a little bit weirded

37:10

out at GM not having

37:13

dice. Like, I know it works, and I've played it. I've

37:15

ran it. But there's still a part of

37:17

me that, like, wants to roll nice. I just

37:19

I like rolling nice. This is the DM. And

37:21

I have run into a few games. I won't mention names

37:23

that are supposed to be DMZ don't roll dice,

37:25

but there were couple things that came up where it's like, well, I

37:27

kinda need to here. Like, Like the I

37:29

don't know that the mechanics are perfectly fleshed

37:32

out for that, but I do

37:34

agree it's a good stretch and learn learning

37:36

experience for the DM to figure out how do

37:38

I you know, not manipulate. That's

37:40

wrong word. How do I influence things and drive

37:43

things in certain times, certain ways without

37:46

having the dice there to kinda help me do it?

37:48

So, yeah, definitely would encourage people to play

37:50

or run dice less or not dice but

37:52

g m dice less games as well. It's just, you know, I'm

37:54

a big runner playing anything that you've not played

37:57

think you're gonna learn something from it. Even if it's

37:59

what not to

37:59

do, because sometimes that's some of our best

38:02

teachers or things that were like, that was terrible. I don't

38:04

wanna do any of that.

38:04

don't like that mechanic.

38:06

I don't like that. Yeah. So then you know

38:08

not to try that in your DND game or

38:10

other traditional game. Which kinda leads

38:12

us into because I I realize how

38:14

how long we're we're going, which

38:16

doesn't feel like it at all, which speaks to why

38:18

you sure have the gold jacket. But one of

38:20

the things is certainly homework. Do we have things

38:22

that we could tell people to check

38:25

out, to watch, to

38:27

read, to listen

38:29

268? There it

38:30

is. User says, I don't think

38:32

there's anything you could taste, but I

38:34

don't know. I mean, some people have that, like,

38:36

since those schizophrenia thing

38:38

where they, like, smell flay flavors and

38:40

--

38:41

Oh, yeah. -- colors. Yeah.

38:42

Perfect. So people 268 things there. I don't

38:44

know. I don't know if

38:45

I would want that forever, but I would be curious

38:47

as far as, like, what that would be

38:49

like. I think if you take mushrooms or

38:51

mushrooms, musk try

38:53

it out. Yeah. Find out. Again,

38:55

well, for me specifically, again, my game is

38:57

all about bad action movies. So watching

39:00

a lot of action movies good and bad is just

39:02

lot of fun. I know the

39:04

a friend of mine, Devin had a podcast

39:06

for years called Shark Bone. They

39:09

actually changed formats couple of different times. But

39:11

if you go back and listen to the original short run

39:13

episodes, which I think you're still available, that

39:15

was their format as they

39:17

would the three hosts, but I'll watch a movie,

39:20

and then they would take, like, an hour, break down

39:22

elements of that movie. How would

39:24

we turn that into mechanics.

39:27

How would we take that scene or that encounter

39:29

or that MPC or that monster? And they would

39:31

talk about ways to do that. I thought it was brilliant.

39:34

Format because if someone who also likes movies, I just

39:36

thought that was really good format and way

39:37

268, like, think about mechanics and how you could apply

39:40

them. So I would say, go, listen to old Shark episodes.

39:42

Yeah. One of the things I had thought of was

39:44

just actually going to, like, I know

39:47

if you're around like, a major city or

39:49

even somewhat major

39:51

city like Grand Rapids, for example, where

39:54

where I am. Like, you can find improv

39:57

cruise that actually, like or troops that

39:59

do improv and just, like, learning from them

40:01

because they do. They they might have

40:04

a prompt that they run with, but then

40:06

where that goes is anybody's guess.

40:08

And you can learn a lot just from

40:10

watching people without actually signing up

40:12

or paying for a class. Just like picking

40:14

up on little things of how they interact

40:16

with each other and what

40:19

they might do, like, to just

40:21

and and even to think for yourself in those

40:23

spaces because it's often what I do when I go to

40:25

an improv thing is, like, what what

40:27

I do in response to that? You

40:29

know, like, would I have done the same thing? And that's the

40:31

brilliance of, I think, some GMO stuff is, like,

40:34

that might not be what I did, but that's great.

40:36

Like -- Yeah. -- let's go let's go with that. So

40:38

I think just checking out an improv, troop

40:40

would be would be a really fun way.

40:43

And just put yourself in that mindset, like,

40:45

if I was the next person up that had to say something,

40:48

what would I do or what would I have said

40:50

or how would I have acted in that

40:52

moment? I think that could be really, really fun

40:54

and helpful. And there's plenty of them around that you

40:56

can go to. Good better, otherwise. And

40:58

and you can also just there's ways

41:00

to watch it online TV shows, you

41:02

know, again, I know a lot of people don't like

41:05

listening or watching actual plays They

41:07

just don't understand it and I

41:09

can get that. But if you're trying to learn

41:11

things, you could you could watch it or listen to it from

41:13

that side. Like, I'm not listening to this for entertainment. I'm

41:16

listening to see how the DM manages this

41:18

or how the player is interacting with that.

41:20

I will say quickly just because I see this

41:22

a lot online that I feel like has misinterpreted the

41:24

whole yes and thing from and Bravo. I'm

41:26

a big believer in yes and I'm a yes and

41:29

d m, but that doesn't mean I don't tell my players

41:31

know. I tell my players know a lot. But

41:33

usually, I tell them before we actually start

41:35

playing. Like, you know, this is a world that doesn't

41:37

have wizards. Can I play a wizard? No. Because it's

41:40

world without wizards. Like, this is a world where all

41:42

the dorms are gone. The the serious advantage

41:44

is gonna be the only dwarf. No, because they're all

41:46

gone. But once we start playing,

41:48

if they're like, hey, I wanna jump on the chandelier

41:51

and swing across the room, I'm not gonna go there's

41:53

not a chandelier in here. Unless there's a

41:55

really, really, really good reason why there's not

41:57

like they're in the middle of the cave of wonders, but don't

41:59

know. Maybe there is a chandelier in the cave of wonders.

42:01

Look at that wonderful chandelier. Yeah.

42:03

Like, what's the question of, like, why is there

42:05

chandelier? He wants us to act hang out

42:07

at one point, you know. Yeah. What's gonna So that's

42:09

what the yes and is just trying to let

42:11

the players kinda take a little bit of narrative

42:13

control and just say yes. You know,

42:16

because does it really matter if there's a rock

42:18

nearby? Like, I just I again, I'll let my players.

42:20

I want them to say, I grab a nearby rock and

42:22

I throw it to try to make a distraction and

42:24

not go Is there a rock nearby? I don't

42:26

know. Let's roll a d twenty. Unless there's

42:28

a reason there shouldn't be a rock around here,

42:30

then there's gonna be a rock lane nearby

42:32

those are those are the sort of yes and that we talk

42:34

about. We talk about DMN. And it's not my

42:37

character wants to be a pegasus who

42:39

has a plus five vorpole tail

42:41

at level one. You can say no to that

42:43

because that's not in the spirit of the game. But yes,

42:45

Andy is more like in the moment in the scene

42:48

trying to keep the narrative narrative momentum

42:50

and not saying no on their ideas there's

42:52

really good reason. But that's it doesn't become an instant

42:55

eye win button for the players. If

42:57

if the GM is like a yes and GM.

42:59

That's a little bit off topic, but I I recently got

43:01

into, like, a discussion online about that, so

43:03

kinda passionate. That's a really good in

43:05

a really good framing

43:07

of that scenario is that you're

43:09

live on stage. And there is an entire

43:11

audience in front of you. And one of the reasons you're

43:13

doing, yes, end is because you're

43:16

in a performative mode and saying

43:19

no and talking

43:21

about it live on stage is

43:23

not ideal for the entertainment of those that

43:25

are in front of you that often paid to

43:27

be in nothing. It's like that that's one

43:29

of the reasons it's there. But I also

43:31

think about the scenarios where

43:35

it's like a like a murder mystery theater.

43:37

And the person who has

43:40

committed 268 if you find This is

43:42

the one that I would try and find if you could

43:44

really find one, is where

43:46

the person who committed

43:48

the murder will change based on audience response.

43:51

And if you can go to more than one of those shows,

43:54

you will walk away with a mountain

43:56

of knowledge just because you're gonna watch the

43:58

same people go through the air quote

44:00

same scenario and come out with a

44:02

different result. And I think those are

44:04

the ones where, like, is it is it DM? Like,

44:06

I've learned it the most from because I can

44:09

you can kind of start to see what

44:11

those changes are and how they're playing off

44:13

of the rest of the people in the

44:15

theater. To make their decisions

44:18

because that's kind of what we do as the

44:20

person running the game. You're kind of playing

44:22

off of what you're getting in response from

44:24

and players. And then going from there.

44:27

The other piece to read is Adisey

44:30

Adventure, which is part of the educational

44:32

materials directly from DND,

44:35

They basically it's the it's

44:37

almost like a session zero where

44:39

you don't know which of the kids that are

44:41

in your group want to be the DMless

44:43

it just presents a scenario. You

44:46

roll and based on your role, this

44:48

happens. So it's already set up. It's almost

44:50

like a two year old individual dice rolling.

44:52

Which is how the entire my little

44:54

pony tails of equestria is set up because

44:56

I've run that for my kids. And it's literally just

44:59

you go to the page and even you roll and it tells

45:01

you what page you go to. Then inevitably, they're

45:03

like, oh, no. I didn't I didn't turn the page. It doesn't

45:05

count. And I was just like, no. No. No. No. That's a help.

45:07

So one thing I would say as well,

45:09

if you have someone who's a little bit

45:12

hesitant. Maybe it's like it's a player

45:15

either in wanting to do that because I know some players don't

45:17

want narrative control. They don't wanna play in

45:19

the top a game like that. That that's not the Verus military

45:21

that they're in for. And you have some GMs who

45:23

are uncomfortable giving that player an air 268 because

45:25

they're afraid that players are gonna say something. They just

45:27

don't know how to respond to it. A lot

45:29

of us do a version

45:32

of this. Usually, it's around combat. Where

45:34

we're we're playing a regular game and,

45:36

you know, Neil, you roll enough and you're gonna kill

45:38

the orc company. Okay. Neil, what does it look like when you

45:40

kill the orc? Like, that's a little

45:42

bit of that sort of GM power because

45:44

you can describe how it looks to

45:46

kill that orc however you want. Even if like mechanically,

45:48

you swing your long sword, you did eight damage,

45:50

and it died, you could change

45:53

it to be like, well, actually, I missed, but he

45:55

dodged out of the way, and then his feet got tangled

45:57

up in the rope and he fell off the bridge and that's

45:59

how he died. That's as long as the Elger still

46:01

or the orc when it was still dead at the end of the narration,

46:04

it doesn't matter how you describe it. And

46:06

that's like oh, it's like I say like putting a

46:08

box on it. Like, you you put a little box

46:10

around how much narrative control the players

46:12

have. But if they enjoy it

46:14

and a lot of them will and they get more comfortable

46:17

with it, then you can start to expand

46:19

it and be like, okay, what's the name of the

46:21

next town over? Or what's some rumor you've heard

46:23

about the mayor in this town? Or what's the name of the

46:25

bartender? Like, you can just start adding more of

46:27

those in So it's not truly ginormous,

46:29

but you're sharing that narrative control almost

46:32

like a ginormous

46:32

game. Alright. Our most important question.

46:34

Where can

46:35

people go? To see all of the things

46:37

that you're doing on the old

46:39

interlids. So the easiest

46:41

place to come is still at the RPG

46:44

Academy on Twitter. I have people

46:46

in my life that I care about more than

46:48

anyone else other than immediate family that

46:50

I only know because of Twitter. So

46:52

I am clinging to Twitter hard

46:54

as I can. And it's it seems to be on

46:56

a path, a downward spiral, but I

46:59

I love so many people because of Twitter. I'm trying

47:01

hold on to it. So I'm still there. The RPG

47:03

Academy feed, we do lots of different podcasts,

47:06

various show types, interviews, actual

47:08

plays, game theory discussions. So if you anything

47:10

I said today connected with you at any level.

47:13

There's probably a show that I do that

47:15

you might be interested in. We have one about crowd

47:17

funding campaigns.

47:19

There's there's too many. There really is to

47:21

do anything. I do show about smallville

47:23

called farm to fable, which Neil

47:25

has been cast on multiple times. And and

47:27

then, again, the big thing right now is my

47:29

action twelve cinema Kickstarter. It's

47:31

currently, as we are speaking, it just

47:33

hit it's not quite a fifty percent. We're

47:36

almost fifty percent day one. So I'm at, like,

47:38

five hours. So it sounds

47:40

like we're doing well. We're

47:42

we're on board to to be successful. But,

47:44

you know, with like to fund, but also like to go above

47:46

that. You know, we got some stretch goals in mind and stuff like that.

47:48

So that would be a big thing for me as if

47:50

people could go check that out and support it. But

47:52

Yeah. Thanks for coming on, and I can't

47:54

believe that we picked the perfect size for

47:57

gold jackets as you're currently

47:58

wearing, and no one can debate that. So

48:00

there we go.

48:01

That you found under your chair. We shipped it -- Yep.

48:03

-- and, you know, had somebody put it there. It's

48:05

great.

48:05

I broke

48:05

in to your home. Nice.

48:07

Neil flew all the way across the country.

48:10

Yep. Worth it. It

48:11

definitely definitely was worth it. And we will

48:13

definitely have you back

48:14

on. I can say that without a shadow of a

48:16

doubt. We

48:18

just want to thank Michael again for coming on and

48:20

spending some time with us, telling about his

48:23

own game that he's made and other games

48:25

and ways to approach having no DM

48:27

or GM at the table. And if you wanna

48:29

tell us about a game that you've played without having

48:31

a DM or GM and how that went, the

48:33

ups, the downs, the left, the right.

48:36

AP, start select. There you

48:38

go. Then you can always email us at

48:40

dungeon master block at gmail

48:42

dot com. And of course, if you see fit

48:44

head to your podcatcher of choice via iTunes,

48:47

Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify.

48:50

I have overcast. Do you listen directly

48:52

out of Pudby wherever you listen

48:54

and leave us a rating and review. And

48:56

of course, you can always follow us on social media

48:59

and look for the Dunge Investors block on

49:01

Twitter. We're at DMS underscore block

49:03

that's at d m's block and you can of course

49:05

find us on Facebook and Instagram as well.

49:08

As always, the potential investor Block is proud

49:10

member of Block Party Podcast Network,

49:12

where you can check out other shows like

49:14

lieutenants and dragons, fungents

49:17

and daughters, and more And as always,

49:19

we just wanna thank you for listening to the

49:21

Dungeon Master's blog. The place where we come

49:23

268 talk about the Dungeonmaster. The most

49:25

important person in the game the only

49:28

person capable of playing God,

49:30

killing characters, and lowering ego

49:32

of everyone else at the table. I'm DM

49:35

Neil. Good night. And good

49:37

luck.

49:47

It's not inspiration, it's not wisdom, and

49:49

it's a bad advice.

49:51

Easiest way to have. The g game

49:53

is not show up. Goodbye.