0:00

Hey everyone, Carolyn here. The

0:02

next episode you're about to hear is actually

0:04

an episode of my other podcast,

0:06

Love's a Pitch, but it's with

0:09

somebody who I really wanted to have

0:11

on the Diking Out podcast and didn't get

0:14

a chance to interview. It's a very interesting conversation.

0:17

They took a course about dating

0:20

and how to get back into the dating game, and I thought it

0:22

was pretty interesting. So

0:24

want to post it up here this week instead

0:26

of re-releasing a Diking

0:29

Out ep. But

0:30

thank you for staying subscribed

0:33

and listening, and hope

0:35

you are all doing all the gay

0:37

things each and every week. Miss

0:40

you, love you, enjoy this episode.

0:53

Hi and welcome to Love's a Pitch, a podcast

0:56

where I talk to people about their

0:58

love lives and what they're looking for, try

1:00

to make some connections in the queer community, and sometimes

1:04

end up making a new friend for myself.

1:06

I'm your host, Carolyn Bergier, and

1:09

that is what happened with this

1:11

week's guest. I had so much fun

1:14

interviewing this person that we

1:16

immediately made plans to hang

1:18

out, and since recording this, that hangout

1:21

actually happened

1:22

and I can confirm. Maybe I should do this

1:25

with everybody that I haven't met before, is

1:27

meet them, and then I can let you know, verified,

1:31

a great catch.

1:33

So let's get right into it. Today

1:36

I'm here with Phil Korn. Phil,

1:38

I am so excited to be talking

1:40

to you today, as

1:42

I said when we got on the Zoom, but I'm going to say

1:44

it again now. This is very exciting.

1:47

I think you do a lot of great

1:49

stuff. Thanks for coming to Love's

1:52

a Pitch. Thank you so much. I'm

1:54

so happy to be here. I had

1:56

to think to myself, am I ready to pitch myself

1:59

publicly? And I'm like, yeah.

1:59

like yeah let's do

2:02

this. And if you're not it's too late

2:04

no. True

2:06

that true that. Well before

2:09

we get into your pitch Phil how do

2:11

you identify? So I

2:12

identify as non-binary

2:15

I consider myself of trans

2:17

experience I you know I don't necessarily call

2:19

myself trans but I am of trans

2:21

experience I

2:23

am more masculine leaning on

2:26

the non-binary spectrum but

2:28

you know what I just like being called Phil.

2:32

If you need an identifier I can give you one

2:34

but just call me Phil. Great all

2:36

right well with that let's get

2:39

into your pitch. Okay so I

2:41

thought about this pitch a little bit because I was like

2:43

I don't know how to pitch myself and what

2:45

I decided was is I would think

2:47

about what my friends would say about me I feel like that's

2:50

a good way to approach this.

2:52

So I think my friends would say about

2:54

me that I'm kind I'm funny

2:57

I'm wise I have an open heart

2:59

I'm very warm I can

3:02

be a bit rigid I can be a bit

3:04

rigid I think that's my capricorn

3:06

nature we have to grow into things but

3:09

the good news about my rigidity is that I am aware

3:11

of it and I am working at it you know I'm

3:13

working on it and I'm doing a lot better

3:15

at pushing myself and I've

3:17

seen situations where I've been rigid and

3:20

softened a little bit and found so

3:22

much growth on the other side of that so I'm doing

3:24

a lot better at being more

3:26

of a flexible human. I

3:29

think something that anyone that knows me would say

3:31

about me is that I'm always on a quest to

3:33

learn more about myself.

3:34

I'm a human that is really

3:37

interested in understanding myself and

3:40

evolving and up-leveling as

3:42

a human as just my personal development

3:44

is a huge part of my life and if

3:47

you like talking about personal development

3:49

if you like asking yourself questions

3:51

and you know being aware of who you

3:53

are and how you exist in the world I think

3:55

you'll love talking to me because that's that's where I

3:58

live I live in the deep end of the pool where's just

4:00

like, oh my goodness, you know, my

4:02

parental sort of like influence

4:05

has influenced me in this way and I want to shift

4:07

that. I'm always thinking

4:09

about how I can be better,

4:12

how I can, you know, exist

4:14

in the world in a better way and not just for myself

4:17

but for others. I think they

4:19

would also say that I'm somebody

4:22

who, everyone knows this about me, I love birds.

4:25

I get lots of laughs when I talk about

4:27

the birds. Birds are my are my

4:29

jam, okay? I love birds. Birds

4:31

are all sizes, shapes, yes,

4:34

give pigeons a break, they are birds

4:36

too. I love birds,

4:38

I love nature and I think

4:41

I would say that I'm really, I'm a really

4:43

good communicator. I love to communicate with people.

4:45

I love to, when I'm dating someone, have

4:48

experiences with them and again

4:50

try

4:50

to push myself into things that might feel

4:52

uncomfortable at first but, you

4:54

know, I try to grow into you and I think the

4:57

last thing I say is like I'm the person that most

4:59

of my people come to when they want

5:01

good advice. I'm always happy

5:04

to give advice and I think I give very good advice but

5:06

I like I mentioned before since I'm

5:08

also someone who wants to learn I don't want to be the person

5:10

who when

5:11

I'm in a relationship with someone is just teaching.

5:13

I want to make sure that I can learn as

5:15

well like I want to, I always want to dance in my relationships,

5:18

right? It's like it's a little bit of this, a little bit of that,

5:20

you know, you take care of me, I take care of you, I want to flow

5:23

and a dance and

5:24

a nice ease in my relationships.

5:28

Wow, Phil, I love

5:30

all of this. There's so

5:32

much here. In addition to all

5:34

the stuff that you mentioned

5:36

before the interview that I want to talk about,

5:40

we only have an hour. I know. Where

5:42

do I start? I kind of want to start

5:45

with

5:45

birds. I think that's

5:47

it. So there's a diking out episode

5:50

that's all about birds. It's diking out about

5:52

birds. My wife and

5:54

I, we love birds and we just

5:56

got back from Disney. So

5:59

we were in Disney. to surprise my nephews

6:01

who were there and we thought it'd be fun to just

6:03

show up. And at Animal Kingdom,

6:06

there are so many birds and there's like

6:08

a bird show and the birds are

6:10

trained and they're just fascinating,

6:14

fascinating creatures. Oh my God,

6:16

that's my happy place. I

6:19

just feel like birds don't, I think people

6:22

do not give them the do

6:23

they deserve. Birds are fascinating.

6:25

They're so intelligent. They're intelligent animals.

6:27

Yes. And there

6:29

are intelligence involved differently

6:31

than ours did, but they're still super intelligent.

6:35

What's your favorite bird?

6:37

I think I love the Northern

6:39

Cardinal. I'm

6:42

sure people have seen it. Yeah. It's like the

6:44

males are red and the females are brown. I

6:46

think it's because I had a period

6:48

in my life where I was actually feeding one. It

6:51

sort of became a pet.

6:52

So I was living in Prospect Heights and I

6:55

decided to put some birdseed out in my window sill

6:57

and I started to get all these birds and I realized I was

6:59

getting the same sort

7:01

of family of birds over and over again.

7:03

So this bird and I

7:05

developed this relationship to the point where he

7:07

decided, he and his wife decided

7:10

it was okay to leave their young on my

7:12

window sill

7:13

while they just foraged all day. And

7:16

I was working from home at the time and I was like, guys, you

7:19

cannot leave your kids here. They cried

7:21

all day long. I can't feed them and

7:23

now I have to listen to it all day long. Guys, you can't feed

7:25

them. Yeah. Unpaid childcare. What's

7:28

going on, birds? That's right. I became

7:30

a surrogate

7:30

parent to a freaking bird and

7:33

without consent, they just left these birds

7:35

there. It was really crazy. That's

7:37

so funny. My wife was trying to train

7:40

a blue jay in our backyard

7:43

and she was leaving these peanuts out

7:45

for it and I was getting

7:47

really anxious about it because I'm like,

7:50

I don't like the idea of you leaving peanuts

7:53

outside because the bird's not the only thing that's

7:55

going to get them. Then I started finding these

7:57

peanuts in other places in the yard.

7:59

And then I found the

8:02

peanuts

8:03

hidden away in places in our house.

8:05

You know what that means. And it was attracting mice and the

8:07

mice were taking the peanuts and I'm like, that's

8:10

it?

8:11

You're not a Disney princess. You're

8:13

not training the birds. Project

8:16

V Blue Jay is ended. I know.

8:18

But now that she just saw that bird show, she's

8:20

like, I'm going to start training them again. I'm like,

8:22

no, those are professionals. Please

8:25

don't. Yeah, you're going to

8:27

have a problem in your hands. And also Blue Jays are notoriously

8:30

like aggressive birds. Those are

8:32

not birds to play

8:33

with. I think Blue Jays attack cats. So

8:35

I just want you to know, just be careful.

8:38

Oh my God. Okay. I'm going to have to relay that information.

8:41

Yeah. So now you know, just be careful. Pick

8:43

a less aggressive bird if you're going to come for

8:46

it. So you also mentioned being

8:49

rigid and you attribute

8:51

that to being a Capricorn. I'm also

8:53

a Capricorn. Sorry

8:55

if I've offended you. No, I just

8:58

said I was curious because I guess I've

9:00

never thought of, not to make this about me, but

9:03

I've never thought of myself as

9:05

being rigid, but I want you to expand on that

9:07

because maybe I'm going to realize something

9:09

about myself here. Well,

9:13

first of all, I don't think all Capricorns are rigid. I definitely

9:16

think that there is this sort

9:18

of, I guess, misconception that Capricorns

9:21

in general are rigid. I don't think they are all rigid. I

9:23

think that I have happened to have some Capricorn

9:25

rigidity in me, in that it

9:28

just takes me a minute to

9:29

grow into something that is unfamiliar

9:31

and new, but it becomes

9:33

a problem when, as I mentioned

9:35

earlier, when you want to be someone who grows

9:38

and is changing and really

9:40

embraces that, you have to push past

9:42

the rigidity to get to that. You know, a lot

9:45

of

9:45

the growth and a lot of the reward is on the other

9:47

side of the rigidity. So

9:51

while I have to push past

9:53

that, I still have it there. And I

9:55

watched myself. I mean, one of the things I should

9:57

mention is that I am 54 years of age. So

10:00

it's not like I'm a new person.

10:03

I have lived 54 years. I know myself.

10:06

I know that I can tend to

10:08

shut down an idea that is, you

10:11

know, might be good for

10:11

me at first. And then I have to stop for a minute

10:14

and be like, wait a minute, actually,

10:17

should I just soften a little bit

10:19

and like consider this? And

10:22

I found that every time I do that,

10:25

there's some wonderful growth there, incredible

10:27

growth. So yeah. Not everyone,

10:29

every Capricorn is rigid, but I can tend to be at times.

10:32

My co-host on Diking Out was

10:34

also a Capricorn. And I feel like if she

10:36

was listening to this, she would be like,

10:39

Carolyn, you're rigid. And

10:42

she would always suggest these changes. I'm like, no,

10:44

it's not broken. Let's, you know,

10:46

why make a change if it's not broken? But then like eventually

10:49

I'd be like, you know what?

10:50

You're right. Let's give it a try. Listen,

10:54

it's not a bad thing. I mean, it does keep you safe

10:56

in some respect, but in sometimes you have

10:58

to just be like, okay, I

10:59

gotta stop. I gotta push past

11:01

this. And in terms of personal

11:03

development, what have

11:06

been some of the most helpful tools

11:08

for you? Like, is there a certain book

11:10

that really changed things? No,

11:13

I think for me, personal development,

11:15

a lot of how it came

11:18

to unfold for me is, I

11:20

think is meditation. I think meditation,

11:22

which is this period of the

11:24

day where I get to stop everything,

11:28

not

11:29

have my phone in front of me or my computer, or,

11:32

you know, I'm not engaging with the world in any

11:34

way, and I just sort of go inward. I feel

11:36

like that's kind of where a lot

11:38

of my understanding, my learnings

11:40

have come from.

11:41

It makes me more attuned to, when

11:44

I'm walking through the world, something

11:46

I need to pay attention to that is going to contribute

11:48

to that personal development. I think meditation

11:51

is like made all the difference. Meditation and sort

11:53

of some sort of spirituality has really

11:55

changed how I, how

11:58

much I've learned about myself and how easy it is. it is to

12:00

learn about myself. And is there

12:02

a certain type of meditation

12:04

that you do? Do you listen to an

12:07

app? I can tell you for me, I can

12:10

go

12:10

between sometimes just sitting in a

12:12

quiet space by myself and then sometimes

12:14

I like guided meditations. When I'm

12:16

trying to work on something, manifestations

12:19

and things of that sort. So I can go back and forth.

12:21

It really just depends on where I am in

12:23

the day. And I think that it's just,

12:25

I have a routine in the morning that really, I think,

12:27

lends itself to all of this. And it involves

12:30

waking up, meditating,

12:32

journaling, and then maybe working out. I feel

12:34

like all of that is my meditation. Yes,

12:37

love a morning routine. That sounds

12:39

great.

12:41

I see this is where I get very Capricorn. I'm like, don't

12:43

mess with that routine. The

12:46

entire thing is like a Jenga. You just pull

12:48

that one slot out. It's like everything's going to

12:50

start toppling. So if you're dating

12:52

someone, they need to respect

12:54

the morning routine. Yeah. Yeah, listen.

12:57

I had a conversation about this recently and I realized that, again,

13:00

this is where you have to have a little like balance

13:02

because it's like you can't be super rigid

13:04

about the routine all the time. Right.

13:07

You have to understand that like, you know, if you're

13:09

dating someone, you may find yourself in

13:11

a situation where you can't adhere

13:14

to the routine here and there. But

13:16

again, I'm also 54 and

13:18

that means something a little different

13:20

from somebody who's younger because I

13:23

need the routine not just for my sanity

13:25

and for, you know, like I mentioned, mental development. I

13:28

also need it for health. So it's really

13:30

important

13:31

to me that I don't, I don't stray from it

13:33

too often because it is keeping

13:36

me healthy. I have like diseases in my family that

13:38

I have to be very aware of, like high blood pressure

13:40

and diabetes on both sides of my family.

13:43

And when you get older, it's like you

13:45

can't get away with it as, as, you know, the drinking

13:47

and hanging out and all that. You can't get away with

13:49

that as well as you could when you were younger.

13:52

So the routine is in place for

13:54

a number of reasons. And

13:57

although I'm willing to, you know, straight

14:00

from it here and there, I do want to make it the

14:03

rule and not the exception. Yeah, so if

14:05

there's a cutie in your bed in the morning

14:07

and she wants to cuddle with you, at

14:09

what point do you start getting anxious and

14:12

thinking, I really need to be journaling right

14:14

now? This is a really good question.

14:17

You were asking great questions. Okay,

14:19

I mean, I've had to deal with this. Okay, well, I'm

14:22

not gonna lie, there's a cutie in my bed. The journaling

14:24

goes out the window. That

14:27

goes out the window. This is why

14:29

I'm like, you have your priorities straight. Oh,

14:31

I do have my priorities straight. I mean, come on, you

14:33

know, it's like, I can go through

14:35

long stretches of being single. So when I am

14:37

with somebody, I'm just like, okay,

14:40

gotta find that balance. Maybe no journaling today.

14:42

It'll happen tomorrow. Oh,

14:44

with that, let's talk about your

14:47

dating journey. What's been going on?

14:49

Yeah. So, you know, when I reached out

14:51

to you in the show, I mentioned that I

14:53

recently did a dating workshop. And

14:57

I think that I got to a place in my journey

14:59

where I was like, you know what, I need to

15:02

think about how I've been dating and how it

15:04

hasn't been working for me. Like,

15:05

I realized that maybe there was something

15:07

I wasn't doing that was working, right?

15:10

I mean, otherwise, maybe

15:13

would I be single? Would I not

15:14

be dating? I was online. I followed

15:16

this one woman who's a dating coach and she's

15:18

incredible. Francesca Hoge, who is

15:20

awesome, just awesome. She's like a dating

15:22

coach. I signed up for her

15:25

mailing list and I saw her getting all these mailings

15:27

from her. And one mailing was like 60 day

15:31

love activation. And it's for

15:33

people who just weren't dating. These

15:35

are specifically, it's specifically targeted to

15:38

people who just were like, no, dating,

15:41

no. And I think I was there. I think I was

15:43

just like, absolutely not. After that

15:45

last relationship I was in, I was like, nope,

15:48

I'm not doing this. I may never do this again.

15:50

I may have to opt out of this. I mean, I just want

15:52

to unsubscribe from dating.

15:54

Dating was a mailing list. I am unsubscribing,

15:57

possibly for life. I was just like, no. And

16:01

after some time passed, I realized, okay,

16:03

is that realistic? Like am I really just never going to

16:05

date again? Like, come on, do better, right?

16:07

Do better. And

16:09

so I saw this mailing and I think

16:12

it just came through at the right time. It came through at

16:14

a time when I was willing to be more, to

16:17

look at myself and be like, wow, why

16:19

did I just stop dating? Like why did I just, I

16:22

removed that from my life. And I was like,

16:24

you know what, I'm going to join the dating workshop.

16:26

Maybe there's something to learn here. Maybe there's something that

16:28

I can understand about what I'm

16:30

doing wrong and why I feel so

16:33

adamant about staying away from dating. And

16:35

I have to tell you, it was just like incredible. I

16:37

feel like I learned so many things. Even

16:40

the first session we had, I had

16:42

to think about the beliefs I had about dating.

16:45

I had to think about like some of the

16:47

sort of like background programming

16:49

that was just running, you know, like

16:51

subconsciously running in

16:53

my head. So completely

16:56

different to what I actually wanted. Because if

16:58

I was honest with myself, of course I wanted

17:00

to date. Of course I wanted to be in relationship and being in

17:03

partnership, but it was just like I

17:06

was staying away from it and

17:08

I had to start to ask myself, why was

17:10

I doing that? And what, what

17:12

was making me so like, here's

17:14

the thing. I think if you decided you didn't want to date

17:16

and you were like, yeah, no, dating's not

17:19

for me right now. It's fine.

17:21

If you speak about dating in this way

17:23

where you're so passionately

17:25

against it, then you have to be like, hmm, what's

17:28

going on? Bro, you gotta, something's

17:31

up here. You gotta ask some questions.

17:33

And I think that's what happened. I realized that I was being

17:36

so adamant and so like, like

17:38

old man with like, no, no dating.

17:41

Like this really like shutting it down.

17:43

And I was like, oh no, that's something, that's about something.

17:45

Was there something that, it

17:48

sounds like there is an underlying issue

17:51

that, that you were uncovering, but

17:54

was there something that kind of flipped the switch

17:56

for you? Like what was it just like one

17:58

bad date too many? Was it a break?

17:59

breakup. Yeah, I think it was

18:02

a breakup and I think it was a breakup,

18:05

but it was, it's interesting because

18:07

at the time of the breakup, I didn't feel that

18:09

badly. I was like, okay, so this is ending.

18:11

It is what it is. But I think it was after

18:14

that breakup, I had time to sit with like what

18:16

had happened in that relationship. And I was like, ooh,

18:19

something sitting work out there and it wasn't

18:21

good. And I, I,

18:23

I felt like there were parts of

18:25

the relationship that,

18:27

um, when I look back, I was like,

18:29

this is a problem. Like this is a problem

18:32

that I have to look at. Like there were things

18:34

about this person that I was

18:36

with. I felt like they said

18:39

things and I don't want to

18:41

use the word attack, but they said things that were,

18:44

to me, I felt a little offensive about

18:46

parts of myself that I myself was not

18:48

owning.

18:49

So I feel like what I learned in

18:52

that relationship is that if you don't, if you go

18:54

into a relationship and there are parts of yourself

18:56

that you decide are not

18:58

good enough, you want to just distance yourself.

19:01

Like I feel like we all have parts of ourselves that some

19:03

parts of ourselves that we really embrace and we love me

19:05

like, and you'll be like, oh, this is what I'm like.

19:08

But there are other parts that we're just not as comfortable

19:10

with. We're not happy owning those parts.

19:13

If you don't own those parts, those parts are open

19:16

and vulnerable to being attacked

19:18

or hurt.

19:19

And so when I left that relationship, I realized there was some

19:22

parts of me that I wasn't owning that

19:24

got hurt. And I had to reclaim

19:26

them. I had to bring them back in and be like, no, no,

19:28

it's, this is a package deal. And there are

19:30

some parts that I have a problem with, but

19:32

I still have to love it. I still

19:34

have to own it and love it and bring it in. So

19:36

that was, that's why I was like new

19:39

dating after that. Cause I was like, really trying

19:41

to understand that. And was this workshop,

19:43

is it one-on-one coaching

19:45

or is it like a group of people?

19:48

It's a group of people. I mean, she does one-on-one

19:50

coaching. I think she may stop doing

19:52

that, but this is a group of people who

19:54

are also just not, you

19:56

know, just trying to understand why

19:58

they weren't dating.

19:59

And I think we

20:02

just, we're sort of ending the, we're at the end

20:04

of the workshop now. And I remember

20:07

being on the call the other day and being like, wow, these

20:09

people, like I've seen these people for

20:11

now almost 60, not 60

20:14

days, but I guess it's over the

20:16

course of like eight weeks, right? And

20:19

they're so different. Like I

20:21

saw the difference in them. Like everyone is just

20:24

different. They're just, they've just

20:26

softened. They seem lighter. I

20:29

could see the change.

20:31

Any cuties? No, not

20:33

for me. No,

20:36

I feel like, listen, by the way,

20:38

this is online, okay? So I'd like, I don't know where these people are.

20:40

Like, no, I don't think anyone's thinking like that. Everyone's just

20:42

like, no, we have to learn how to love again. That's where my

20:44

mind goes. I feel like, luckily

20:47

my parents were cool with me

20:49

being gay, but had I been sent to

20:51

like conversion therapy, I would have been like, all

20:53

right, we're the cuties. Like any

20:55

group you put me in, I'm just scanning the

20:58

room being like, all right. I'm not mad. I'm

21:01

not mad. I mean, listen,

21:02

you're married, but you still have eyes. It's

21:04

totally fine, I get it. So

21:08

what was the biggest change that

21:10

you saw in yourself through this? I

21:12

just realized how false

21:14

some of my beliefs were. That was a bit

21:16

shocking. It was a bit shocking. Beliefs

21:19

about yourself or about dating? I think

21:21

about myself more

21:23

so than dating, but about myself. One

21:25

of the things that she would say

21:27

at the beginning was like,

21:28

there's opportunities everywhere. I was like, what? I

21:31

mean, come on, opportunities everywhere

21:33

a day. And

21:35

I think it was must've been the second week

21:37

we were in a dating workshop, and I was walking down the street

21:39

in my neighborhood, and I was walking

21:42

past this woman and she was checking me out.

21:44

I saw her checking me out. And I'm not somebody

21:46

who's just gonna be like, everyone's checking me out. This one

21:48

was definitely checking me out. So she's

21:50

walking towards me and I

21:52

watched her looking at me, but I

21:54

watched her trying not to look at me.

21:56

And I remember thinking to myself,

21:59

okay, so this is...

21:59

interesting. She looked at me, but

22:02

then she's looking away and she's just, I'm

22:04

just watching her, but I'm observing her from

22:06

the standpoint of like a podcast

22:08

host per se, like something like that. Like this

22:11

is so interesting, human behavior. Like

22:13

I became David Attenborough like for

22:15

some reason and was like humans in

22:17

the wild checking people out. So

22:20

what I realized about myself in that moment was like

22:22

instead of being in the moment with that woman and just smiling

22:25

at her, I got

22:26

outside of the moment. I started analyzing

22:29

the moment instead of being in the moment. And

22:31

if I hadn't before the workshop, I wouldn't

22:33

even realize I was doing that. And I must've done that many

22:36

times, just walking on the street. So

22:38

I was like, just

22:39

smile. It's not that deep.

22:41

You don't have to be David Attenborough. Nobody needs to

22:43

be watching BBC right now. Just smile. So

22:46

if that happened again, let's say,

22:48

you

22:48

know, tomorrow,

22:50

same thing happens. Let's say it's the same woman.

22:53

Would you stop to, you know,

22:56

make conversation? Maybe. I

22:59

mean, I might, but I would smile. At

23:01

least smile. I would just give her like, baby

23:03

steps. I see what you're doing, girl.

23:05

I see what you're doing. I don't give her, I

23:08

don't give her the side

23:10

smile. You know, it's like, it works.

23:12

It works for me. It's worked in the past.

23:15

So I would give her the side smile and she would just probably, and she would

23:17

probably freak out because she was having a hard time. Like

23:19

I could see it. She was really trying

23:21

not to be in that. Like I saw

23:23

her. She was really trying not to be doing what she

23:25

was doing. But I'm like, listen, it's

23:27

happening. Let's just let it happen. It's fine. How

23:30

were you meeting people before in terms

23:32

of the people you've dated? Well, I always

23:35

meet people usually in person. I don't do dating

23:37

apps. That's the other thing. So that's the other

23:39

thing that I wanted to mention from, you

23:41

know, in the workshop. I was just like, is it okay

23:43

if I don't date online? And she was like, sure, but you have

23:46

to meet people in person, right? I don't like

23:48

dating apps. I just do not

23:50

like them. I don't think I represent myself

23:52

best on dating apps. And I feel like I'm just better

23:55

in person. I mean, with the pandemic,

23:58

that became a lot harder, but like, you know. It's

24:00

just for me, it's just better in person. I feel

24:02

like the dating apps put a layer of like, I

24:04

don't know what you're gonna be like when I see you.

24:07

Like we can talk, we can talk, we can do all this thing,

24:09

but when we see each other, like what's that like?

24:12

Yeah, I feel like any time that I've

24:14

met someone off an app, and

24:16

not in a bad way, but it's never what I think

24:19

it's gonna be.

24:20

Like there's always these assumptions

24:22

that you have, even in terms of like what they're

24:24

gonna look like, what their vibe is gonna be, and

24:26

then you can meet them and it's like their voice

24:29

is something that you weren't expecting, or

24:31

their demeanor, their energy or something.

24:33

Yes, and I think energy is a big part of that,

24:36

because it's just like, you don't really know what energy you're

24:38

getting until you're right in front of someone. And

24:40

for me, it's just much better that

24:43

like you meet me out, I'm with like people,

24:45

I'm in a very, you know,

24:48

me state, just being naturally me,

24:50

and I just like that better. I just, I

24:52

cannot do dating apps, I will not, I will

24:55

not. And how

24:57

has dating changed for

24:59

you over the decades? Ooh,

25:02

that's a good question. I

25:04

think, this

25:07

is about to get problematic, but I'm gonna say it. I

25:10

think, I have to say, I

25:13

feel like it's a little harder to find

25:15

the date, what I'm looking for. I

25:19

like

25:19

femininity, I like femme women. It's

25:22

just my thing, it's what I like.

25:25

I've always liked it. I

25:28

think that now there's a lot, a

25:30

lot of folks are non-binary, a lot

25:32

of people are, like

25:34

there's, I know we're erasing gender,

25:37

get it, let's do it,

25:38

that's fine. But like, I will always

25:40

at the end of the day, really just embrace

25:43

loving femme women. Like that

25:45

is what I like, and I think that's gotten harder.

25:48

I feel like it's harder to find them. I'm like,

25:49

where are they? It's

25:51

like an endangered species, where are they? That's

25:54

so funny, because I feel like so

25:56

many more people are fluid,

25:59

not just with. gender, but with their sexuality,

26:02

whereas I think there's a

26:05

lot more femme women,

26:06

because so

26:09

many more women are bisexual,

26:12

and in my experience, most

26:14

bisexual women lean femme.

26:16

So I love what you're saying.

26:17

I love it. But

26:20

I will say this, I think, so then that's

26:22

a me problem, right? Because it's like, I, it's

26:24

not that I wouldn't, I think in the past,

26:26

I would have been very

26:27

careful about dating a bisexual woman.

26:30

I think now I think I'd be a lot more open to it. I

26:32

think there was a time when I was like, no, no, no, this person,

26:35

like, I'm not sure if I want to get

26:37

into partnership with this person, what is it going to be like? But

26:39

I feel like that's, it's a pretty ignorant

26:42

standpoint to take, actually. And I feel like I've

26:44

opened up in that, but I don't know where

26:46

the, even know where the bisexual women are. I'm

26:49

like, where are, where are they? I'm like, please

26:52

make yourself known. I would love

26:55

to see. Yeah, that's the other thing with,

26:57

I mean, all of the bisexual

27:00

women that I've

27:02

dated or hooked up with, I want

27:05

to say has been through apps

27:08

because, and like,

27:11

from what I know through conversations with my friends who

27:13

are bisexual and everything, so many,

27:16

like a high percentage of bisexual women

27:19

are partnered with men, right? Because

27:22

it's just easier because

27:24

they're not, they might not be used to

27:27

being the ones who ask women

27:29

out. They might be worried

27:31

of like how they're perceived in the queer

27:34

community. There's like a lot of anxiety for them

27:36

around that. They're not sure how

27:38

to find other, like

27:41

queer women, that kind of stuff. Whereas

27:43

men are out there, you know, salivating

27:46

and,

27:49

you know, shooting their

27:51

shot. From, from their

27:53

car windows.

27:59

So it's easier. Men

28:03

will shoot their shot anywhere. Wow,

28:05

it's fascinating. One time I

28:07

was at a red light

28:09

and my window was down,

28:11

and these

28:13

guys on a patio

28:16

at the bar on the corner yell out

28:19

to me, and they're like, hey, come

28:21

join us. I'm on my way

28:23

to work and I get to work, and I asked this

28:26

guy, Jim, that I worked with who was just like

28:29

the

28:29

dutist of dudes, just typical

28:32

just like dad, football,

28:34

watching. I'm like, Jim,

28:36

you got to explain this to me.

28:38

Do these guys really think

28:40

I'm going to be like, you know what? Forget

28:42

where I'm going. I'm going to pull over

28:45

and

28:45

join these men. He

28:47

said, look, if

28:50

it works one out of 100 times, that's

28:53

great, then it worked. It doesn't

28:55

hurt them at all if you keep driving. Worst

28:58

case scenario, you just drive off. Best

29:02

case scenario, you join them. Honestly,

29:05

Jim, I think Jim's answer was dead

29:07

on. Yeah. If it works

29:09

one time out of 100, let's just keep it going.

29:12

Right, right. So that's what I think with

29:14

guys who cat call and things

29:17

like that, it's like fascinating. You know what?

29:19

There's, what is it, a

29:22

lid for every pot and maybe

29:24

some women

29:25

respond to the cat call and it just

29:28

takes that one time. Well, listen,

29:30

you know what? So I've dated

29:32

girls who've dated guys, right? Yeah. And

29:35

the first conversations we have is just like how

29:38

usually, I mean, I don't want to say this is a rule,

29:40

but once I've dated, it's

29:43

usually this conversation of

29:45

like how much cooler it is to be dating

29:47

me because I feed

29:49

them with respect. And I'm

29:51

like, well, geez, that's like a basic

29:54

thing with everyone I date. And

29:56

a lot of the queer people I know are like that, but

29:58

it's just so interesting because I'm always.

29:59

like it's hard because I'm

30:02

just like I don't want you to think

30:04

that what I do is special and great. Like

30:07

I don't want you I just I don't want that to happen. I'm

30:09

like you need to know that this is not for sure great.

30:11

This is baseline. Right

30:15

right. And it's only gonna get better from here. Like

30:18

it's this baseline. I just want you to know that this is not

30:20

like amazing baseline.

30:23

That's always an interesting conversation.

30:24

Yeah yeah it's tough because

30:26

you don't want to you know stereotype

30:29

any group and of course there are plenty

30:32

of toxic queer

30:35

folks and like people

30:37

who treat people awfully and we

30:40

hate that but it is something

30:43

that you notice or at least also

30:45

like you know I have my share of queer

30:47

friends who tend to their type

30:50

is quote-unquote straight women.

30:52

So they'll often be like the first

30:54

woman that

30:56

that somebody's dated and

30:58

they

30:59

will always comment how their girlfriends

31:02

are always like so used to like having

31:05

to play games or so

31:07

used to thinking

31:09

the masculine person in the relationship doesn't

31:12

have emotions or doesn't know how to

31:14

express them. So it's always

31:16

like this weird conditioning that they

31:19

have that they feel like they have to kind of like

31:21

work to undo and

31:23

be like no no you don't have

31:25

to do that with me. Right right

31:27

I mean you I mean maybe there's there's an episode

31:30

here where you just focus on that because I think

31:33

I want to hear that I just want to hear all the things

31:35

and like right here

31:37

all the sand points on this because it's fascinating

31:39

it's interesting topic I don't think people

31:41

are talking about enough. Yeah so

31:43

what's your type

31:45

your ideal type?

31:47

If you were on a dating app and you had to fill

31:49

out let's say some put

31:52

some filters on this.

31:53

Yeah okay so I think definitely

31:56

femme presenting right that's that's big

31:58

for me and but I think

31:59

I think at the end of the day,

32:02

it really is somebody

32:04

that is

32:05

kind of good for that dance that I sort of mentioned.

32:08

So first of all, before anything,

32:11

I have to say this and I know it's weird that I have to say this, but

32:13

I feel like I've had updated

32:15

people

32:15

in the past that I couldn't believe were like this.

32:18

You have to have basic kindness. You

32:20

have to be a kind person. I cannot

32:23

do people who are not kind.

32:25

That is such a deal breaker for me.

32:28

You have to treat people well. You

32:31

must do that. I know that it's weird

32:33

that I have to say that, but I feel like I've been with people in the

32:35

past where it's just like, are you serious right now?

32:37

You must treat everyone.

32:41

Random strangers. I

32:43

get having a bad day. I get people

32:46

pissing you off. That's a different thing, but you must, as

32:48

a

32:48

general rule, just be a kind person. Please

32:52

treat people respectfully. I think that's big for

32:54

me. I think also, in terms

32:56

of age, age is pretty open for me. I

33:00

can't go super, super young, but I feel

33:02

like it's always about how the energy plays together.

33:05

I would think somebody who

33:07

has similar energy to me, somebody who's warm

33:09

and open-hearted, is big. Also,

33:12

somebody who is very self-aware,

33:15

somebody who understands who they are. They

33:17

know who they are. They can communicate that.

33:19

They're not finding it out along the

33:21

way. They're all finding things out. I mean,

33:24

somebody who has a

33:25

basic, good understanding of who they are, because

33:27

I have dated people who didn't. What

33:30

I found was what they thought,

33:32

they didn't understand what it is they wanted.

33:36

They were finding it out in surprise as I was.

33:39

I was like, I'm sorry, what? We were finding

33:41

out together. I'm like, what? You

33:43

don't know? You didn't know this. I

33:46

think somebody who's very self-aware is big.

33:49

I like people who love laughter and fun and new experiences

33:51

and travel and like a good

33:54

meal.

33:59

I enjoy it. meal, you know, and

34:02

some live music. I think

34:04

those things would be high on my list. What

34:06

kind of live music do you like to see?

34:09

To be honest with you, I don't like big concerts,

34:12

so I love going to

34:14

a classical concert. Like, I love

34:17

doing that. Like, it is like the thing, one

34:20

of the things that just makes my

34:22

heart just like

34:23

burst open. Just something about a good classical

34:26

concert is great.

34:28

You know,

34:29

like a jazz concert. I mean, I'll

34:31

go see singer-songwriters

34:32

and various things, but it just needs to be on

34:35

a smaller scale. I just don't like large concerts.

34:37

It just drives me nuts. I don't like large crowds

34:39

in general.

34:40

Right. Especially in New York. I

34:42

mean, to go to a large... There's

34:45

nothing enjoyable about it. No,

34:47

it's not. It just stresses me out. It's like, when

34:49

are we getting out? I'm just not enjoying it.

34:52

But when I'm in a smaller scale... Like, I know that

34:55

for a while I was going to a lot of the candlelight concerts. Oh,

34:57

yeah. They're at churches and they're

34:59

so

34:59

nice. It's just, I went to some incredible

35:02

concerts where they're like,

35:04

you know, quartets or various

35:06

things.

35:06

I just, I like a smaller concert.

35:08

Just something intimate. The

35:11

genre doesn't matter

35:13

as much. I mean, I'm not so big into country

35:15

or, you know, bluegrass or any of that stuff, but

35:18

pretty much almost anything else just on a

35:20

smaller scale is great. Do you have

35:23

a go-to

35:24

date spot, like a restaurant that you

35:26

like to go to?

35:27

I don't think I do right now. And I think

35:29

that I'm still exploring some places, but

35:31

I really do love a speak easy vibe.

35:33

Like, I love a saddle

35:36

up to a bar, nice lighting.

35:40

I love that kind of experience and just

35:42

getting to know someone. I love the idea of just

35:44

being like quality time, like really having

35:47

a nice intimate place to

35:49

talk. So I feel like there are a lot of places in

35:51

New York that are like that, but I haven't, I

35:53

can't say having actual go-to at this point. There

35:56

is a bar I will recommend. They call it

35:58

a speak easy to me.

35:59

It's not like a real speed. There's no like knocking

36:02

on the door and saying the password or anything like this,

36:04

but Where is it as

36:06

a queer person? It's it's in the

36:08

west village and it's

36:10

called uh Do not disturb

36:13

and it's right by you've been there.

36:15

I have many years ago so long

36:17

ago It's been a while since i've been that place was great.

36:20

Yeah, so it's right by the cubby hole and They

36:24

I think they just like redid it recently,

36:26

but uh, my wife and I were like

36:29

so it's still there Yeah, yeah, my wife and I were leaving the cubby

36:31

hole and this queer

36:35

mask

36:36

Person was sitting just kind of sitting on

36:38

the steps. I didn't even know there was a bar there And

36:41

they were smoking a joint and I kind of gave them the

36:43

nod like yeah We're

36:45

queer too, you know and And

36:48

they were like hey,

36:50

do you want to check out my speakeasy?

36:53

Who said okay, so they took

36:55

us downstairs and like gave us

36:57

a tour and it gave us drinks

36:59

on the house And it was so

37:02

nice and now i'm i'm recommending it to everybody

37:04

because if the date doesn't go Well, just

37:07

go over to cubby hole and see see what's happening

37:09

there Wait, wait, is it but is it

37:11

run by a queer person? I don't know who

37:14

runs it. This person was just a bartender I

37:16

shouldn't say just a bartender, but but they were they

37:18

were working as a bartender there, but they

37:20

seemed like very Involved

37:22

like they helped create the menu create some of

37:24

the drinks and stuff. So That

37:26

is my next date swap in I didn't even know

37:28

that was still around and I am so i'm that's

37:31

that is my vibe

37:32

Yeah. Yeah, it was like good music You

37:35

know like good like sexy

37:37

lighting and stuff. So so I recommend

37:39

that one Wow, that is my vibe.

37:42

Nice that is going on my that's something at the top of my list

37:44

right now So thank you for that

37:51

You This

37:53

episode is sponsored by better help therapy

37:55

online how much time

37:57

do you spend on yourself first other people?

37:59

people in any given week. Just think about

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38:04

what everyone else needs from you and

38:07

you forget to prioritize your own needs,

38:09

especially if you have some of those energy vampires

38:11

lurking in your life, you know what I'm talking about. And

38:14

don't get me wrong, it's great to give time and energy

38:16

to others, but you also have to make sure you're taking

38:18

care of yourself too, so that you don't get drained

38:20

and burnout. That's something that I

38:23

had to learn to focus on in therapy, where

38:25

I became more aware of the demands of my energy

38:27

from others and how that sometimes

38:30

led to neglect of my own needs. Mind

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39:13

What's the longest relationship

39:15

that you've been in?

39:18

What's the longest relationship

39:20

that you've been in? Okay,

39:23

so I was married for several

39:26

years. We were married

39:28

for probably like 10

39:30

years, but I feel like the relationship

39:32

itself was about 18 years. Wow.

39:35

Oh yeah, no, I was in a long-term

39:38

partnership. Like I really,

39:41

I didn't think

39:41

I would be single ever again. Like

39:43

this was a long, I mean, I met

39:46

this person when I was like 28 and

39:48

it ended, I would say, like

39:50

five, six years ago. Wow.

39:53

Yeah, yeah, I was, it was

39:55

a while. That's a very long

39:57

span of time, right? So a lot of growth,

39:59

a lot of. I'm

40:01

such a different person from when I was

40:03

in that relationship, and even from the five

40:05

years, five, six years that relationship

40:08

ended.

40:08

Wow. Yeah, that's a long time. Do you keep

40:11

in touch with your ex at all? I did say I was 54.

40:16

No, not, I mean, no.

40:18

We're not friends in that

40:20

way. I had to get some things

40:23

from her recently, and it's

40:26

cordial, but we're not

40:28

in each other's lives that way. And that's

40:30

fine.

40:31

We don't need to be. Yeah, same with me

40:33

and my, I also have an ex-wife, but I

40:36

mean, me being like, wow, because it

40:38

didn't last that long. But

40:41

yeah, sometimes I do think about how different

40:44

my life is now than

40:46

when I got together with that person,

40:48

and it's just like living two very

40:51

different lives. It was, I mean,

40:53

for me, I came out as being

40:55

non-binary at the end of that relationship. So

40:58

I had a lot of

40:59

very, like huge

41:01

change, huge transitions at

41:04

the end of that relationship. A lot of things changed, and

41:06

you know, the marriage being one of the biggest ones,

41:08

but a lot changed for me. So I

41:11

am a completely different person from

41:13

when I was in that relationship. It's like, it's

41:15

night or day, really is.

41:17

So you mentioned you've been going

41:19

out on dates now since

41:22

you started the workshop. How's that going?

41:25

Yeah, I mean, so I have been dating

41:27

and it's been going really nicely. I feel like I'm

41:29

really enjoying it. It feels

41:32

different because I feel like I'm approaching

41:34

it differently. It feels more

41:38

expansive in a sense because I feel

41:40

like I'm approaching it

41:42

with less, I think

41:44

to use my one of my favorite words, rigidity, I'm approaching

41:47

it with less rigidity. I'm trying to be

41:49

a little more open.

41:51

I feel like I'm softer in

41:52

my approach and it's

41:55

nice. It's really nice. I mean, it just feels

41:57

nice to be out and about.

42:00

feeling I feel

42:02

what's changed is like I feel datable. I

42:04

didn't feel datable at one point and I feel datable

42:07

and that has changed a lot. It's

42:09

a weird thing to say that you would like you

42:11

can feel datable or not feel datable.

42:13

I feel datable right now.

42:15

Love that. Yeah it's

42:17

a nice change. Do you go out to

42:19

queer spaces to meet

42:22

people? Are you going to bars or events

42:24

or anything like that?

42:26

Yeah I mean I have been doing that. I

42:28

went to a couple speed dating events recently

42:31

and you know it's interesting I like going to speed

42:33

dating events. I don't

42:34

think there are a lot of people who enjoy speed dating and I'm

42:37

like I like it because I like talking to people. I

42:39

don't have to walk in there and feel like

42:42

I need to walk out with dates.

42:45

I walked out with friends one of my first

42:47

speed dating events and it was just nice to be there with other

42:49

queer people. I've been

42:52

locked away during the pandemic because I

42:54

was living with an immunocompromised

42:56

family member so I hadn't been out a lot during the

42:59

pandemic. So now that I'm back out

43:01

which

43:02

is my natural state because I was out all

43:04

the time before the pandemic it's just nice

43:06

to be in queer spaces again. So

43:08

I'm just picking that back up now and

43:10

being in spaces and I

43:11

really enjoy being around my community. I

43:14

just I love it. It's fun

43:16

for me. I can be in those

43:18

spaces with not feeling like

43:20

I have to be dating or have to be you

43:22

know getting someone's number and just being

43:24

in the space and enjoying it and that feels great. Yeah

43:27

that was something too coming out of the pandemic

43:30

was realizing how much time I hadn't been

43:32

spending in queer spaces

43:34

and once we got vaccinated

43:37

it's like let's

43:39

change that. Yeah

43:42

yeah I missed it so much and

43:44

I

43:45

I didn't even realize it myself but I have

43:47

stopped I had stopped going out you know

43:49

I just I just needed to be safe but now I'm

43:51

back out there. I'm trying not to

43:53

be too crazy but I am back out there again.

43:55

Now some of

43:57

the people listening are I mean

43:59

I've

43:59

I think most of them are thinking, gee, I

44:02

really love hearing Phil talk.

44:04

Well,

44:05

you're a podcaster. We haven't talked about that

44:07

yet. Can we talk about that a little bit? Of course,

44:10

of course. Yeah, so I am

44:12

a podcaster. I did

44:14

a podcast of four years called Transition

44:16

of Style. That was my podcast about gender

44:18

identity and personal style.

44:20

And that

44:22

was my baby. I did that

44:24

for four years. And it was, we

44:26

had guests on that. We talked

44:28

about gender identity and style and how those two things

44:31

interact. So it was a jumping

44:33

off point for me

44:35

to host the community

44:37

to talk about these things, but also for me to

44:40

hone my skills as someone who was an

44:42

interviewer, right? And who interviewed people.

44:44

And then I also

44:45

started to do, I'm from Driftwood, as you

44:47

know, with Andy Egan

44:49

Thorpe and Alex Berg, who

44:52

are some awesome humans. Yes,

44:54

for sure. Did that for a while. And

44:57

I also now do audiobook narration. So

44:59

I use my voice quite a bit. My podcasting

45:02

right now

45:02

is more on the production side, but

45:04

I'm using my voice a little more in audiobook

45:07

narration more than hosting at this point.

45:09

So yeah. Very cool. Yeah, I

45:11

do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I

45:14

love that. And how would you describe

45:16

your style? Oh, the way I dress? Yeah.

45:19

Oh, that's interesting. I feel like I'm

45:22

sort of re-exploring that

45:24

right now. I think for

45:26

a while I was really big on

45:28

suits and dressing. Dapper fellow?

45:30

Oh my God. I was big on it being a

45:32

dapper fellow. And I love being a dapper fellow,

45:35

and I still really enjoy that. But

45:38

I feel like my body's changed a bit.

45:41

COVID weight is a real

45:43

thing. I've had top surgery also

45:46

since that time. So

45:47

everything's different. And so I'm just finding

45:50

my style again.

45:51

And I don't know what I would say

45:53

about it right now. I'm not sure I have words

45:56

for it. I know I will find it.

45:58

But I think when I find it this time.

45:59

it's going to be a little

46:02

more unique. It's going to be a little more

46:04

like, there's going to be a lot more custom

46:06

clothing made. I want to be

46:09

in my own lane with style. So

46:11

I'm still exploring that, so I'm not sure I

46:13

would say about it. But if there's an event,

46:16

I will

46:17

put on a suit at the drop of a hat. I love

46:19

getting dressed up and stepping out

46:21

into town and looking hot, so I'm ready

46:23

for that. I'm always ready for that. Love

46:26

outshining the groom at a wedding. Always.

46:32

Is what I live for. And

46:36

I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to say it first, but

46:39

I do love doing that. Now I think that's

46:41

our job as queer people, just to keep

46:44

the straights in

46:47

line. Right.

46:50

Guys are getting too comfortable. They got to be like,

46:52

guys. Can't let them feel superior. Yeah. Like,

46:55

you got to step out, guys. Don't get too

46:57

comfortable. I'm coming

46:59

up on the rear here. Be careful. This

47:05

is great. Well, how should people

47:07

who are interested and maybe going on a date with

47:09

you, how should they reach out to you? What's the best way

47:12

to get in touch? Okay, yeah. So I

47:14

think you can find me on my Instagram, which I

47:16

think is going to change at some point. But I'm

47:18

using right now Phil,

47:19

underscore, aka

47:22

underscore Corinne. And that's C-O-R-I-N-N-E.

47:26

Yeah, if you send me a message there, you

47:30

like what you heard, you're like, that Phil sounds

47:32

interesting. Send me a message. That's

47:35

where you can find me. And are you looking

47:37

for New York based people only? Are

47:39

you open to long distance? No,

47:42

I've done the long distance thing plenty of times,

47:44

please be New York based because I've

47:47

done the long distance thing. I'm not

47:49

interested in that. I mean, listen, you can find wonderful

47:52

people everywhere, but I am looking

47:54

for ease at this point.

47:56

I'm 64 for God's sakes, people. I

47:59

want ease. in New

48:02

York. Are you also open

48:04

to people looking for maybe just casual

48:07

hookups or are you looking more for relationship?

48:10

Good question. I'm not a casual hookup person

48:13

so I don't I'm not saying

48:15

we have to go you know I need to be just

48:17

with people who are just relationship people

48:19

but at least they need to be just like people are interested

48:21

in dating I'm

48:23

not a casual hookup person it's just never been me

48:25

it's I often wonder how people can

48:27

do it but I'm like it's just not something that I've been ever

48:29

good at so no hookups please.

48:34

Alright sounds good well Phil thank you

48:36

so much this has been so interesting

48:38

I think you're such a catch so I'm excited

48:40

for our listeners to either

48:43

you know pitch themselves to you

48:46

or send their cute

48:48

femme friends your way. Thank

48:51

you so much this has

48:52

been so much fun I really enjoyed

48:54

it I love what you're doing for the community this is awesome

48:56

I know you also do a live show so I gotta

48:59

pop into that

48:59

and yes check that out at some point for

49:01

sure yeah this is wonderful thank

49:04

you so much for having me on. Thank you

49:06

Phil.

49:09

So I'm actually already working

49:11

on trying to set Phil up with

49:13

a past guest of this podcast

49:16

can you guess who I mean everything

49:19

they said they give great advice they're very easy

49:22

to talk to very wise

49:25

has interesting and good perspectives

49:28

on things so check

49:30

out Phil check out Phil's work

49:33

in podcasting some really great

49:35

stuff there too and thank

49:38

you for listening

49:39

you can follow me at TGI Caroline

49:41

on Instagram you can follow the pod account

49:44

to see clips and images at loves

49:46

a pitch

49:48

if you want you can

49:50

also rate and review on Apple podcasts

49:53

that's always a very nice thing that you can do

49:55

for me and for the community

49:58

why not and this podcast

49:59

is produced and edited by Caitlin

50:02

White. Music is by Velico. Thank you

50:04

so much for listening. Now

50:06

I'm gonna go make follow-up plans

50:09

to hang out with Phil again because last time

50:11

was so much fun!