0:02

Welcome to EconTalk, conversations for

0:05

the curious, part of the library of economics

0:07

and liberty. I'm your host, Russ Roberts

0:09

of Shalem College in Jerusalem and

0:11

Stanford University's Hoover Institution. Go

0:14

to econ talk dot org where you can subscribe

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comment on this episode and find links on our

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information related to today's conversation.

0:21

You'll also find our archives. With

0:23

every episode we've done going back to two thousand

0:26

six. Our email address is

0:28

mail at econ talk dot org. We'd

0:30

love to hear from you. Today

0:37

is January fifth twenty twenty three, and

0:39

my guest is poet and lawyer Dwayne

0:42

He is the creator of the Freedom Reads Project,

0:45

an initiative to install

0:47

curated micro libraries of five

0:49

hundred books in prisons across the country.

0:52

Project we spoke about on his first

0:54

appearance. This is his third appearance on

0:56

EconTalk when it was slashed here in May

0:59

of twenty twenty two discussing Ralph

1:01

Ellison and Primo Levy. I

1:03

wanna encourage listeners to go to talk

1:05

dot org where you'll find a link to our

1:07

survey of your favorite episodes of

1:10

last

1:10

year. Duane, welcome

1:12

back to EconTalk. I

1:15

know it's always a pleasure to be here. I'm

1:17

chasing my monkey. You're close. Well, with this

1:19

third episode, you know, you're on

1:21

your way. I lose track.

1:23

I think Mike said it's forties, but, you know,

1:25

just a few more dozen, couple

1:28

dozen, well, three dozen more well, more than

1:31

that. But you I'm not I

1:33

I would I would never underestimate

1:35

you, Duane. All things are

1:37

possible. So so we have

1:39

three topics today. We're gonna talk about

1:41

if we get to them. We'll see. We're gonna talk about

1:43

beauty in prison, which

1:46

is a bit of too many

1:48

would be an oxymoron. We're gonna

1:50

talk about what's happening with your library project,

1:52

and then we're gonna talk about your latest book, which

1:54

is quite unusual in many dimensions.

1:57

That book is redaction as they

1:59

have it. Let's start with beauty. I

2:01

mean, you recently wrote about beauty in prison

2:03

in a piece in the New York Times.

2:06

It it opens this way quote. The

2:09

first morning, I woke up in a cell.

2:11

I was sixteen years old and had

2:13

braces and colorful bands covering my

2:15

teeth. My voice cracked

2:17

when I spoke. I was five foot

2:19

five and barely weighed more than a sack

2:21

of potatoes. Before my

2:23

eighteenth birthday, I'd scuffle

2:25

in prison cells, be counseled

2:28

to stab a man I declined, and

2:31

get tossed into solitary confinement five

2:33

times. And still of

2:35

those years. The memory

2:37

that endures is the moment a prisoner whose

2:39

name I've never known slid

2:42

Dudley Randalls, the Black Poets,

2:45

under my cell door in the

2:47

hole. And a

2:49

quote, So for listeners who

2:51

didn't hear your first appearance and, of course, we'll link

2:53

to it. How'd you get to prison

2:55

at sixteen? And how did that book? That

2:58

was slid under your door by a stranger

3:01

who you've never known now and never met

3:03

how to change your life. And,

3:07

you know, one of the things I find

3:11

I find challenging is is is,

3:13

you know, as you get older, some

3:16

of the excuses you make for, you

3:18

know, younger selves started to wane

3:20

just because, like, all of a sudden,

3:22

you're in contact with people who who

3:24

you think, you know, could be. Right?

3:26

It's almost like you you meet yourself constantly.

3:28

And, you know, when

3:30

I was twenty, there wasn't a case because when I would

3:32

you know, me to sixteen, you know, they they felt

3:34

like me even when I was twenty five and when I was

3:36

thirty. But now that I'm forty two and

3:38

then I got a fifteen year old that

3:41

question of how did you end up in prison at sixteen

3:44

as one that that

3:46

I find baffling, you know? Because because

3:49

I realized that the answers that I thought made sense,

3:51

no longer makes sense. But

3:53

but the short of it is that EconTalk

3:56

somebody and it was December

3:58

seventh nineteen eighty six nineteen

4:01

ninety six. And then the next

4:03

day, we we got arrested driving.

4:05

We actually got arrested at the mall. We were

4:08

shopping with a credit card

4:10

that didn't belong to us. And

4:14

that's the short answer is that I somebody. I

4:16

got a court, you know, one

4:18

of the funny things about that

4:20

people don't realize, you know, I think that that that,

4:23

you know, just wowed and and you ran in

4:25

the streets. I mean, the first thing I deal was

4:26

confess. And it wasn't

4:29

the pressure of having police pulling

4:31

pictures at me. I think it was that

4:33

I was living in a place

4:35

where I

4:37

expected to go to college, wanted to go to

4:39

college, but it was just much easier

4:42

to engage in the balance that was around

4:44

me than than to avoid it. And

4:46

it was much easier to imagine

4:48

that I I have to have a foothold in that world

4:50

even if it's just momentary. Didn't

4:52

didn't recognize that that thing would change the

4:54

way sold myself the only other soul me

4:56

for the rest of my life. And so I

4:59

I confessed immediately, you

5:02

know, didn't even know how much time I

5:04

would get I just confessed so that they would

5:06

drop some of the charges. And

5:08

I stood in front of a judge, sixteen years old.

5:10

They said life in prison because EconTalk

5:12

goes life in Virginia. And

5:15

I remember I remember sitting

5:17

on the sitting in my

5:19

chair and my family got up a couple

5:21

people. My family total

5:23

family friends. Let

5:25

me explain how I called Jack the man because I

5:27

didn't have a father and and

5:30

my

5:30

mom, she she didn't she didn't get up

5:32

and testify on my behalf, but she was in the

5:34

room. And

5:37

I just you know, I remember thinking, man, nobody told

5:39

me to not have any father to a leak from

5:41

the from the chunk. And so

5:43

when the judge asked me what I wanted to

5:45

say, I

5:47

remember saying I I apologized to

5:49

the victim, and I apologized to my

5:51

mom, you know, to my family. And

5:53

and all I know is I didn't do it because I didn't have

5:55

a father. But the

5:57

the wild thing and then this is what I've I've

5:59

really had no further to truly

6:01

been able to answer this is I didn't provide to

6:03

judge for a reason why I did it. I

6:05

just I just knew why. I just knew what

6:08

wasn't a rationale, you know. And,

6:10

anyway, I I went to prison and

6:13

And it's so interesting because it's the most humbling

6:15

thing in my life. I thought I was so much

6:17

better than there's so many

6:19

people, you know, my peers because I

6:21

was getting degrees, but I was trying I

6:24

I thought they wouldn't have passed the Redaction.

6:27

ended up in prison before all of them.

6:30

And and if something's really humbling when

6:32

when when you get into a

6:34

place like that and you recognize, like, that this is your

6:36

community. And and you gotta figure

6:38

out, man. You know,

6:41

if you hate them, you hate yourself. And so some

6:44

torturous, I think, about being a sixteen year old

6:46

in this this guy for taking place and trying to

6:48

find meaning. And that's why the books

6:50

became so so valuable, you know.

6:53

But, yeah, that's not what happened. That book

6:57

sliding along the floor that went into your cell door?

7:01

How long were you had you been there

7:03

before that happened? Do you

7:05

remember? Yeah.

7:08

Yeah. No. Definitely, it's one of those

7:10

things that I'm a self forget about. And since that

7:12

Like, I haven't read books all of the time. You know, we

7:14

all have orange or storage and and and I have different

7:16

orange or storage too. I I should say, like, one of

7:18

the first ones was, you know, I

7:21

when I was yeah. I got locked up

7:23

when I was sixteen in my eleventh

7:25

grade. Yeah. When I was in the tenth grade,

7:27

one of my my history teacher quote

7:29

me reading in the classroom, you know, and I was

7:31

reading I was reading for, like,

7:33

homes. You know, I had it under my desk,

7:35

and he came back and busted me.

7:38

And I mean, I thought he would take my book and yell.

7:40

He just said something, like, to the

7:42

fact that that's a good book. And So

7:46

so what happens is I I walk up

7:48

to him and he and and afterwards, and

7:50

he's reading the philosophy book and he lets me borrow it.

7:52

I remember like, being deeply,

7:54

deeply enthralled in his work of of philosophy.

7:56

He's asking these questions, like, how do you know you

7:58

exist? And I was I was captured back. Right?

8:00

Then he let me borrow it. And did two

8:02

things. He he wanted he introduced me to this

8:04

book called called Sophie's

8:09

World. And it was, like, this

8:11

fifteen hundred word book.

8:13

It was this young girl who who

8:16

who ended up meeting, like, all her grief loss.

8:18

That's right. It was an intro to philosophy book,

8:20

but I hadn't got my hands on it. And the

8:22

second thing he did was he he

8:24

he he was trying organize the trip to the whole

8:26

course. He was in for the whole class. But

8:29

the school wouldn't permit it. So then he told us,

8:31

you know, if you wanna come in the summer, you

8:33

know, if you meet me, then I can get you a private tool.

8:36

Now this is, like, five months before I go to

8:38

prison, before I the bank, you know, before

8:40

I get nine years from prison.

8:42

That summer, I go to the whole of course myself with this

8:44

with this teacher. And and this is

8:46

my first experience. We we really,

8:49

we'll understand what the whole of course is.

8:51

Even thinking about what it means to be Jewish as,

8:53

like, a idea as a as a notion.

8:55

Right? So I get

8:57

locked up, and and I'm trying

8:59

to find a way back. Right? And I got this

9:01

teacher that's telling me I could help you get

9:03

your high school diploma. And and

9:05

essentially what my my courses

9:07

study became with her was

9:10

you know, look, you'd have enough credits to

9:12

graduate right now. All you need to do is finish eleven grade

9:14

and say twelve grade English. So I

9:16

did all of my classes at the county jail,

9:18

and then she gave me twelve grade English. And with

9:20

twelve prelims consisted of, is reading

9:22

everything. You know, I'm reading all

9:24

the I read Ernest Gaines. I'm reading

9:26

anything that I wanna read or anything that she

9:28

tells me to read. And she says, what do you wanna read?

9:30

And I said, you know, I wanna read this book,

9:32

Sophie's world. I think about the teaching. I said, I wanna read

9:34

Sophie's world. And so she's like, okay. I'm

9:36

gonna get you Sophie's world. If she comes

9:38

back, like, you know, a week later, and she says, I

9:40

think you're mistaken. Because

9:42

I was looking for it, and I can't find a book called

9:44

Sophie's World. I think you wanna read Sophie's Choice.

9:47

Not the same book. And

9:51

you know, I'm like sixteen and it's like, what

9:53

was me? And then I read Sophie's Choice and

9:55

my world is blown. And and I

9:57

go from from Sophie's Choice,

10:00

to the confessions of that turn.

10:02

And and so in in my own head, you know, I I

10:04

tell this older story about becoming

10:06

a poet. Betts think the the reality is

10:08

even before I had became a poet, some

10:10

notes had to happen, which is I

10:13

had to get exposed to the literature that then we

10:15

have some sensitivity to

10:17

understand I know that it's not just what was neat.

10:19

So this is

10:21

nineteen ninety six. It's

10:23

nineteen ninety eight when I ended up so

10:25

I read Sophie's World I read Sophie's

10:28

Choice in nineteen ninety six. It's nineteen

10:30

ninety eight when I'm at the first president

10:32

on that. You know, I've been sentenced.

10:34

I've been transferred downstate to

10:36

the prison, and it's something happened

10:38

on the yard and I ended up getting put us on a

10:40

certain apartment, and it summer of nineteen

10:42

ninety eight. Book for contraband, so they

10:44

took all of my books and and they didn't let anybody be

10:46

able to have books like that. But you would hear

10:48

guys on the door asking for

10:50

And then people were slacking books and then it was

10:52

just like the underground library. If if somebody

10:54

had a book and the actual one, they were given

10:57

to and and they wouldn't ask you what you

10:59

wanted. You know what I mean? So I've read, like,

11:01

so many reader's digest Betts. But

11:03

I remember, I was like, yeah. Somebody

11:05

sent me a book and And then, you

11:07

know, this poetry book doesn't write offs the black

11:09

poetry slides under myself. And but the

11:11

truth is though, you know, and and at first, I was like, what am I

11:13

gonna do with this read poetry,

11:15

you know, some sixteen, seventeen years

11:17

old, I'm a solid surgeon found it.

11:20

What is the problem gonna do for me? But I

11:22

I discovered, you know, Robert Hayden. I

11:24

called McCabe, Lucille Clifford, Sonya Sanchez,

11:26

like so many fascinating writers. But the

11:28

thing that really turned me into a poet was I I

11:30

discovered after his name. And he

11:32

had this pulmonary cordial for a freckle face

11:34

gerald. And and and one of the

11:36

lines was sixteen years, hadn't done a good

11:38

job on my voice. And

11:40

I'm a kid when I'm And

11:43

and and I said, with his precise

11:45

speech in the same

11:46

grid, he couldn't quite wanna twist the

11:49

fist, sort of, black cats around

11:50

him. And I mean, just pulling him over to

11:53

sixteen year old kid who ends up getting raped in

11:55

prison. And phone

11:57

was written in the seventies. And so I was

11:59

thinking, like, what was made? You know,

12:01

I'm sixteen, seventeen years old. I'm in prison,

12:03

and it's a whole cohort of us. I'm

12:05

thinking this is the first time this has ever happened in

12:07

the world. I can't believe this is going on. And

12:09

then I read this poem that's about

12:12

somebody who could have been me in

12:14

the seventies. And and I

12:16

just thought, wow.

12:18

A poem could be history. It could be

12:20

psychology. And

12:23

also I read it and it made me grateful for the life

12:25

that I had, which is, you know,

12:27

you're grateful for anything in

12:28

prison, but

12:30

but I didn't really have precise speech. I didn't

12:32

have an innocent grand, and people loved me

12:34

even in prison. And and even

12:36

in the whole, I knew, like, And

12:38

I was I was not a tough guy. You know, I was in a

12:41

hole. I mean, I was probably the hole

12:43

because somebody had, like, swung on me

12:45

and and I never you know, I didn't

12:47

really retaliate, you know. So it's not like I was

12:49

a tough guy, but I read that poem

12:51

and I knew. The thing that the

12:53

poem did was was captured

12:55

a story that the person who experienced it couldn't

12:57

because the person who experienced it might not

12:59

survive. And at that moment, I was like, you

13:01

know, this is the thing I wanna be. This is the

13:03

thing I wanna do. And it's

13:05

really strange to to to commit to

13:07

doing something, you'll be a subject when

13:09

you're so young. But you

13:12

know, I did and and and all these years later. I

13:14

committed to being two things actually, you know, I committed to

13:16

being a criminal too, not understanding that

13:18

decision I was making, and then to be able to commit

13:20

to being something else. And it

13:22

had other thing last longer than the first

13:24

thing is is still something that's pretty humble

13:26

to me. That's

13:28

amazing. So

13:34

in this space, for

13:36

the times, and

13:40

unintentionally or not in your what

13:42

you just said. Try

13:45

to make a life. You're in prison, but you still

13:47

make a life. We don't I think

13:49

those of us who have not had to

13:52

deal with that kind of thing just have a

13:54

very flat stereotype

13:56

view of what it means to

13:58

be in that situation, not just in

14:00

prison, but being convicted of a

14:02

crime and having an identity suddenly

14:04

thrust on you or chosen by

14:06

you is a unbearable

14:09

surprise. And

14:13

yet, there's other

14:16

stuff going on there. It's

14:19

it's not as flat as it looks. You

14:25

You're right later in that piece. Talking about

14:27

Rikers Rikers president

14:29

Rikers Island, quote,

14:31

The conversations about places like Rutgers are

14:33

usually limited to the violence that takes

14:35

place there as if prison. Like

14:37

the streets we walk each day, is it

14:39

filled mostly with people attempting to get by?

14:42

People who reach for beauty in every way they

14:44

can. During my time in prison,

14:46

I got into a single real

14:49

fight. People to understand how many of us

14:51

ought to become more than our

14:53

crimes or how many of us

14:55

starved for lack of a conduit.

14:57

To the dignity that we sought. So

15:02

what does that mean? When

15:05

you reflect on your own experience and

15:07

then on your experience of going back into

15:09

prisons recently with books and we'll talk about that

15:11

in more detail. But What does it

15:13

mean to reach for beauty? Can

15:16

you can you appreciate

15:18

that when you're there? Yeah.

15:20

You know, is what

15:21

one thing is really interesting actually is is

15:23

one of my friends criticized my first book and

15:25

he say, I've read it, you know, I've read it in a couple

15:27

of days. And so, you know, what will

15:29

get me is I

15:31

think that just ain't us. And

15:34

he's, like, prison ain't just us. Now I've

15:36

read my first book, I mean, I wrote it.

15:38

And I try it very hard not to make the

15:40

book haws. Right? But

15:42

a good friend of mine who had been since

15:44

the life in prison, you know, his critique

15:46

was you didn't capture

15:48

the the substance of everything else that's going

15:50

on

15:50

here. And

15:51

and you don't mind explaining that. Osm

15:54

being just a horrific hell

15:56

hole. Oh oh, yeah.

15:58

Oz meaning, like, the the world of you know,

16:00

it's it's it's it's it's these certain narratives

16:02

about prison that persist, and and Oz

16:04

was a television show. That was about, I

16:06

don't know, like, for the jail. And I'm sure I was gonna

16:08

take more and it's just to hard. But

16:10

what people know from us is sort of to hard.

16:12

And so

16:13

the question for him was,

16:15

as a writer, you

16:17

know, how complex do you make this

16:19

portrait and every decision you make as a

16:21

choice? And I don't think in the

16:23

first book I wrote about what it means to reach for beauty. And

16:25

and I but I do think it exists in prison,

16:27

and it exists in a lot of ways.

16:29

You know, you see a bunch of grown

16:31

men, science. They they didn't really let us play

16:33

football in Virginia. But,

16:35

you know, around Thanksgiving. I remember

16:37

just one Thanksgiving snow on the ground,

16:39

and he let us play football. And,

16:42

you know, you see a bunch of grown men running around

16:45

playing football. And and

16:47

all ages, you know, I mean,

16:49

it's something that's that's joyful and and

16:51

and it's been people trying to recapture that.

16:53

You you see people playing

16:55

basketball, but you see people actually, like, Like,

16:57

I remember walking into AAA prison

16:59

and and and this then my cell part that

17:01

was out fifty six years

17:03

old. And

17:04

was in my twenties. So so that means that

17:07

now he's probably in his eighties, you know. But he

17:09

was crying at his table and there was a circle

17:11

when around him. I just thought something's

17:13

got profoundly wrong to to to

17:15

for this guy who's been locked up for twenty five

17:17

years to be crowned in public.

17:20

And he and me parole, and

17:22

and nobody made the road during that time.

17:24

And he was crying and his friends were

17:26

wearing them. And so I I, you know, III

17:29

think that is complicated because

17:31

to to say something like you is there beauty in

17:33

prison? Is is this

17:35

a is this is like like, we started this

17:37

conversation with in a ways like a

17:39

oxymoron. Right? But

17:41

but there is sometimes beauty. I

17:43

mean, I remember the first dude

17:45

that defended me. You know, it

17:47

was this Salvadorian. El Salvadorian guy,

17:50

you know, a tattoos all over

17:52

his body. And he used to draw roses when

17:54

a envelope. With an ink pen

17:56

and and get this astonishing depth

17:58

of detail and shading just by

18:00

using ink pen. So I

18:02

I do think his beauty in prison. And I think, you

18:05

know, you don't wanna, like, trivialize your experience

18:07

and act like it's just this one thing.

18:10

But in in in in in in trying to trying to

18:12

really engage the world to say how horrific

18:14

it is, it's very easy to

18:16

forget that there are these moments

18:19

a beauty, and it's easy to forget that, you

18:21

know, in all of the language and the

18:23

work around criminal justice reform, the thing

18:25

that people don't really do a lot is

18:27

we'll we'll say what does it mean to

18:29

actually fundamentally, radically change the

18:31

lived experience of people aside to say,

18:34

like, like, that's the thing I'm doing. You know?

18:36

I might not get you out of prison. You

18:38

know, I might not release not showing any

18:40

sentence. I'm not even advocating

18:42

for for for criminal justice or

18:43

reform. And in in my current work, what

18:46

I'm saying is

18:47

that you need another, you know, you

18:49

need another a another Iota of beauty

18:51

in your life. And and the vehicle for

18:53

that literally can't be a book because

18:55

I think the other moments of beauty ahead

18:57

it. It's like when somebody slid that book under

19:00

my cell. You know, if it's these

19:02

conversations that were all the shit I

19:04

had. I mean, I remember a guy called

19:06

me I'm doing a reading in

19:08

upstate New York. And I was like I was like,

19:10

I'm gonna answer this because this is my friend called me

19:12

from prison. I tried to answer things and somebody

19:14

called me. Which is, like, the most

19:16

disrespectful thing you do ever to a audience.

19:18

Right? And I'm, like, oh, look, man.

19:20

I'm doing this

19:20

portrait. I'm, like, you know what? You wanna

19:22

listen in?

19:23

And I put him on speaker so that

19:25

he can hear me. And and he

19:27

he he has, you know, he has the audience

19:30

laughing. Somebody in order to say it's tied to them,

19:32

you know, and and, like I

19:34

mean, I don't think that's that's a moment of a

19:36

beauty. That's a moment of richness. That's

19:38

a opportunity to be more

19:41

connected to the world. And and so I I do

19:43

think it's beauty and prison. I think

19:45

that it's not enough.

19:47

And I think that we should push because if

19:49

we push to make it more, I think we remind ourselves

19:51

of of who we are and

19:53

and we give ourselves opportunity

19:56

to to to revisit that that

19:58

that that idea of who we wanna be

20:00

instead of being stuck, you

20:02

know, in in a circumstances.

20:04

So to speak, And I

20:10

wanna trivialize the challenge of being

20:12

a prisoner, but, of course, us

20:14

have this challenge of remembering the

20:16

dispute in the world. Pretty easy

20:18

to go through life.

20:21

Just missing it. It

20:24

is everywhere. You just have

20:26

to pay attention. I'm paying attention

20:28

is really hard. I

20:30

don't know why it's so

20:30

hard. What what it shouldn't be.

20:33

You know, there's some places

20:35

that are physically more

20:38

static. Than others. There

20:40

are some places that offer

20:42

more glimpses of the transcendent and

20:44

the awesome than others. But

20:47

Almost every place has beauty in in some

20:49

fashion and I

20:52

think the I

20:54

just said Ramante of Emily Dickinson. I think I've

20:56

had this right. My heart stirred

20:59

for a bird. The idea that,

21:01

you know, I just

21:03

I want a urine to see something

21:07

magical, beautiful, transcendent,

21:10

awe, filled, I don't know. It's

21:12

it's a under experience,

21:14

part of the human experience. I think it's just because

21:16

we don't pay enough attention.

21:19

Yeah. I remember I I mean, I

21:21

remember once I've I've had a bit of a

21:23

charm like for some ways, and and yet

21:25

but everybody has. And it's the the thing about pain that says

21:27

I was just to teach my

21:29

son this notion of paying attention. And but but, like,

21:32

even the phrase, you know, to

21:34

pay attention, like, what is it what

21:36

is the the the sorta

21:39

the the that vehicle that you have

21:41

to give the world, what is what is the

21:43

the money that you have to the world? And it's

21:45

just your attention. So what does it mean to

21:47

pay attention to something how is

21:49

remarkably so much of a choice.

21:51

And I remember I was in this this

21:53

sale at June I was sent to Santa Fe

21:55

forty signature to a dark gel and and

21:57

later to prison, I would sneak a book in to my

21:59

cell at night and read it. And I got

22:01

all caught up in, like, you know, like, the

22:04

Jonathan Lewis to see all

22:06

And so I had him and myself and

22:09

then my aunt was sending me something. She sent me

22:11

one of her books. And and the

22:13

guard, he he walked past and he saw

22:15

me reading and he chastised me, he just worked

22:17

in leadership. But then when he opened the

22:19

door to take my book, he saw what I was reading.

22:21

And I guess he had read similar books. He was

22:23

into the Betts. so now I had I had

22:25

AAAA friend. You know, he Betts me

22:27

keep the book, and then he would I will read and

22:29

I will fall asleep when I read. And so he will wake

22:31

me up before shift sales. And and and

22:33

and and and and get the book from me and put

22:35

it back so that I wouldn't get a trouble. And

22:37

I remember once he gave me the book that I had

22:39

of my locker and I'm reading it

22:41

and I turn the page, I get to the middle,

22:44

and I swear I doesn't fully close

22:46

this film out of the book, you

22:48

know, because I he he

22:50

had told me how to file a police service.

22:52

I I searched for police service to his day, you know,

22:54

when I went to walk in, I find him pretty

22:56

consistently, but she would find him put

22:58

them in books, and I do the same

23:00

thing. I'm gonna open this book and, like,

23:02

that doesn't fully flow this

23:04

on fallout. And and and whatever reminds

23:06

me of, is

23:08

as always that, like, the the certain

23:10

portfolio is a decision

23:12

for her to pay attention. And

23:15

then, you know, putting it in the book, and then stored it in the book,

23:17

and then later to get a book to me, and it was

23:19

all happenstance. She probably had no clue

23:21

that, you know, those forty photos were

23:23

in that book because you know,

23:25

she had that book, ten years, fifteen

23:28

years before she she gave it to

23:30

me. So anyway, I do think that

23:32

you what you do is you wait for moments

23:34

like that. And and

23:36

you get to choose what what moments you

23:38

will imagine are remarkable. I I think a

23:40

lot of times we we forget that that we get to

23:42

choose, and it might be you know,

23:44

some people might think the police was a tribute.

23:46

And I I know because they looked at me sometimes

23:48

when I'm on a corner, sitting down and,

23:50

like, you know, walking my dog and

23:53

I looking fine at Fortis Global. They're like, what what, you know,

23:55

what are you doing? I'm like, when we look at Fortis

23:57

Global. But for others, there's

23:59

there's a moment a beauty and it

24:01

captures something that that

24:02

matters. You know? Yeah. You're also

24:04

looking for your aunt, which is pretty beautiful that you

24:06

can find her on a street corner and

24:09

kinetic it somewhere. Yeah. It's pretty sweet.

24:12

So the literal sense

24:14

in which you were trying

24:16

to bring beauty into prisons with Freedom Reeds project.

24:19

And so, you

24:21

know, when I think of it,

24:24

here at Chalham College. We we do

24:26

a it's a little like what your

24:28

project is, not quite the same,

24:30

but there's a a

24:32

trail like the Appalachian trail here

24:34

in Israel. It's called Shwiliasirals, the

24:36

Israeli Israel Trail.

24:38

And you can go from the full north and

24:40

south of the country on this trail.

24:42

And Shalom College, I'm president

24:45

of before I got here, I'm is I

24:47

love this decision. I had nothing to do with it. I

24:49

love it. We put out boxes of books on the

24:51

trail, scattered along the

24:53

trail, and and you

24:55

can go there and pick up a book. It's

24:57

often a book that Maybe

24:59

always, I don't remember, but that we published

25:02

in in our press. And

25:07

sure people are walking along and thinking,

25:09

what's that box? And they go and look at it? They go, like,

25:11

oh my gosh. She got books. It was

25:13

amazing. And you're

25:16

bringing books, you know, into a different

25:18

kind of wilderness, different kind of desert, different

25:20

kind of trail. But

25:24

the part I wanted to emphasize is

25:26

that you made a decision to

25:30

make the bookcases that house

25:33

those books beautiful. You know,

25:35

he didn't just say, well, we'll put a bookcase in a

25:37

library, and we'll have five hundred two bookcases. I'll

25:39

hold five hundred books. You

25:42

you designed somebody

25:44

designed a gorgeous

25:47

curved wooden bookcase.

25:49

We'll put links to the

25:51

project online, of course, to the set of episode.

25:53

You can look at it yourself, listeners. But

25:56

You may they're beautiful. They're really beautiful.

26:00

They're not practical for me because

26:02

they they're not flush to

26:04

the wall because they're curved, but

26:07

they're perfect for president. So

26:09

talk about that decision and and

26:11

Why did that?

26:12

You know, it really

26:14

was imminent. You know, somebody said, basically,

26:17

somebody said to me, what would you do?

26:19

You know, in his world if you if you could have a

26:21

bigger impact and and it wasn't about money.

26:23

And I I thought, well, I would put, you know,

26:25

we put millions of people in prison.

26:28

I'll put a million books in prison. And I thought

26:30

about the the Betts. I thought about the

26:32

the the the, like, the the prison

26:34

is like a glass. You

26:36

know, and the people are like water. And I

26:39

thought of the books like ice cubes. And and and

26:41

if you had enough ice cubes to a glass of

26:43

water, the water overflows.

26:45

You know? And I thought that that if you add

26:47

enough books to prison that

26:49

we might conceptualize what we do

26:51

to each other -- Yeah. -- on both

26:53

ends to you know, it's both ends of the

26:55

spectrum. I think people in prison understand home and violence

26:57

as as much as anybody

26:58

else. I think,

27:00

you know, it's not to just say that the

27:02

the world is injustice. It's to say that the

27:04

world is injustice. And really profoundly

27:07

complicated ways. And and in

27:09

some ways, what we do with prisons is

27:11

is is allows us to ignore

27:13

the injustice. And I just don't have the idea of

27:15

books and bringing more and more books in the

27:17

prison will profoundly alter the way we

27:19

sort of space and the way people inside

27:21

sort of space. lot of things were happening.

27:23

So then I was like, okay. Well, how will you do this? You

27:25

know, will you just do a bookshelping? I was

27:27

thinking it's gonna be a five hundred

27:29

book collection. So Walter Reilly

27:31

had five hundred books when when he was

27:33

at the, you know, Tower of

27:35

London. And I thought, like, five

27:37

hundred books is is is a sufficient

27:39

number of books to, like, you

27:42

know, especially their grade books if they if

27:44

they had weight to them. There's a sufficient number

27:46

of books to carry you through a stretch

27:48

of time. And I also thought it was

27:50

I'm I'm I'm pretty well rare, but I have

27:52

huge gaps just based on

27:54

not having the opportunity to

27:56

to read some books when I had the time. And I thought, you know,

27:58

you know, prison is a lot of time.

28:00

It also thought that books fundamentally are

28:03

just so much better a

28:05

change of people's minds in a way they see the world,

28:07

then the arguments. And so I was like, what kind of

28:09

books? And it was mostly

28:12

fiction impository, you know, self philosophy

28:14

and some non fiction, but mostly fiction and poetry

28:16

because I think a novel, I think, you know, for me,

28:18

like, reading reading Sophie's choice may

28:20

be much better understand, like,

28:22

would have meant to carry the experience of the

28:24

whole cross around that the reads and non

28:26

fiction will have. I think reading

28:28

and you, you know, we could all go down the list.

28:30

But then the question was, okay. So you're gonna put the

28:32

books in. Will you? And at first, I was gonna do

28:34

a book show, like, a case that's on the

28:37

wall, on your wall behind you. And

28:39

I thought, well, but that's taking up so much

28:41

space. You know, people in prison, they don't push

28:43

ups on the wall, sort of the

28:45

wall is like valuable space. They

28:47

leaning against the wall to talk. And

28:49

then the thing is that if you go to your

28:51

bookshelf, you know, you exist at your bookshelf

28:53

and as you commute it with the Right?

28:55

It's not a it's not a community.

28:57

They can spill from that experience. Maybe one

28:59

person stands besides you, but but y'all shoulder

29:01

to shoulder, y'all not looking at each other

29:03

in the face, And again, it's it's

29:05

just, like, two people that get to take up all of

29:07

that space. So I

29:10

thought, okay. III don't want it up against

29:12

the wall. So then decided not to have it

29:14

up against the wall. I had to deal with with

29:16

prison. I had to deal with

29:18

blind facts on the prison rate

29:20

elimination act and the fact that you

29:22

can't of your sight lines. And so they led me to think, okay.

29:24

Well, now it has to be forty four inches

29:26

high. And I thought, what if and I'm working

29:28

with mask design, at

29:30

the time, the architecture and

29:32

design firm that, you know, build Bright

29:34

premises memorials to hospitals around

29:37

the world. And don't one

29:39

of these silent gardens at Gallaudet.

29:41

They do some some interesting things that

29:43

and I was working with this guy named Jeffrey, this

29:46

architect did and

29:48

and we settled on, like, you know, forty

29:50

four inches high and and and thinking

29:52

to make it curve, if it don't want with the

29:54

king, you know, to the Aker University's

29:57

basketball's justice. And but

29:59

the thing is, by doing it that way, one,

30:01

we could maximize the number of books we could get

30:03

in a small space. Because we can make the book the book

30:05

successful with two

30:06

SAGs, but also by making a

30:09

curved, the

30:10

typical library has three books bookshelves.

30:13

And and around three bookshelves this curve forty four each

30:15

time, six to seven people could

30:17

just browse at one time. And what happens

30:19

is when you when you're looking at those

30:22

she's not just looking at the books, she's looking at the person across

30:24

her, and it literally creates a space.

30:26

And and then the question was, well, what would

30:28

the material be? And I I got really obsessed

30:31

material. I was like, we're gonna make it out of wood. We're

30:33

gonna make it out of hardware. We're gonna use,

30:35

like, maple and corn and

30:37

and and oak and cherry. And and

30:39

the reason was because the the wood last

30:41

forever and it's beautiful. And you go into a

30:43

prison and it's just street lines and

30:45

right angles. And it's just, like,

30:47

still in concrete and

30:49

and and and and, like, plastics. Right? And

30:51

so I was, like, we're gonna use

30:54

was something that that you know, every time I see

30:56

when III put my handle and I touch it

30:58

because it is is is life that's

31:00

coming out of it. And and a lot of people argue

31:02

me and say, well, I mean, why don't you just get our

31:04

keyboard shows? You know, if you got our keyboard shows,

31:06

then then you can do this thing. And I was like, well, you

31:08

know, if we got our keyboard shows,

31:10

One, the prison will permit that

31:12

Kimbook shop, frankly, because this is that's usually

31:14

made by Vineyard and and and

31:16

the the shelves are really gonna be done and they

31:18

can become weapons. But two,

31:20

it'll miss the depth of beauty. You

31:23

know? And and then it actually missed the process

31:25

that goes into the construction. And so at

31:27

this point, the

31:29

the production of one of these is is a

31:31

journey for everybody involved. You know, is

31:33

this transformation of

31:36

wood, It's the the labor of the people's hands while

31:38

literally crafting these things at

31:40

our beauty and, you know, I was

31:42

I was thinking about that that biblical

31:45

story. With looks like somebody washes his

31:47

I can't remember the story because I I

31:49

don't you know, I

31:52

I know the story actually. I think it's it's it's a

31:55

woman. It's like washing

31:57

Jesus' feet wet hair or something, you

31:59

know. And I

32:01

forgot what they say the story meant. Like, who's

32:03

supposed to mean. But when I think about it, it's

32:05

just like, who is to

32:08

say who is worthy? Of

32:10

a beautiful thing. You know, who

32:13

gets to to decide that

32:15

question? And when you anybody who's engaged

32:17

with this project, you know, when you work and all

32:19

that you build in it, I mean, this is

32:21

the most beautiful thing that is in the house of most

32:23

people that I know. You know, nobody has

32:25

something that's this beautiful. So when you work

32:27

on it, you know that your

32:29

design is something that that has the kind

32:32

of attention to detail, the

32:34

kind of care, and the kind of

32:36

cause. That exceeds what a lot of us are capable

32:38

to bring into our home. And,

32:41

frankly, none of us will bring this into our home because

32:43

it is not efficient. You

32:45

know? And so you work on this thing and you

32:47

know that it's something that's profoundly beautiful.

32:49

There's always it forces you to act. So

32:51

does this person deserve this?

32:53

And in every step of the process, you say yes,

32:56

and you say they deserve it. Not

32:59

even because they've done something that's like, you know, this

33:01

is the most greenest scholars in

33:03

prison these are the most powerful human beings. No.

33:05

I mean, they deserve it because

33:07

it says something about how we

33:10

want people to be

33:12

treated and seen in the world. And

33:14

so so at the end of the day, you know, you you we

33:16

have actually seen a transformed spaces.

33:19

And and that's you know,

33:22

not to act as if it's like

33:24

this truly existential moment for

33:27

everybody. But it is existential sort

33:29

of transformative experience, I think, for for

33:31

a lot of people increased opportunity

33:33

for for, like, you know, you you

33:35

really pause work too. I think it does

33:37

Redaction to the full transformative experiences

33:39

for so many people involved. And we put

33:41

one in for the staff as well, you know.

33:44

And and I think the thing is radical

33:46

about that. It's I mean, you said it's

33:48

saying when when when the CEO was getting on our parents,

33:50

it's like, you're doing life

33:52

too. You know, you're just doing it eight hours at a

33:54

time. You know? With

33:56

your cell phone that you know what I

33:58

mean? But if you wanna reach

34:00

your wife right now, how are you gonna do

34:02

it? You come in here with a plastic

34:04

bag that has to be see through because they don't

34:06

trust you no more than they trust me. And and and and,

34:08

you know, correctional officers have

34:10

high rate of alcoholism. Higher

34:13

rate of domestic violence, higher rate of

34:15

stress, than people with a lot of

34:17

professions around in this world. And so

34:19

by bringing one in for them too, you

34:21

know, it's just but you get to see just

34:23

a moment. I've seen it. Just to get to see a moment that that

34:25

they're saying like, damn. You know, this is

34:28

a bit

34:30

of light in in a dark place, and it's light in a dark place, not

34:32

just for people just doing time, it's light in a dark

34:34

place, for people that works there. And and

34:36

a really radical thing, if it ever gets to

34:38

this point, is the kind of

34:40

permissions that it gives you, you know, when

34:42

you put a library in the housing

34:44

unit, I think it gives permission for the men

34:46

there to see each other as more

34:48

than just you know,

34:50

criminal stage player

34:52

athlete. But to but to

34:54

see to see a person in public as

34:56

a reader, because you don't have lab access to collaborate. And

34:58

then if you get to the place where the

35:00

get a chance to actually go read and that's a part

35:04

of to to eat those in the structure of other day

35:06

for them, then I think that they get to see

35:08

themselves and something other than

35:10

to jail. You know, and and the

35:12

people doing time, get to see the CEOs and something

35:14

else. They get to publicly

35:16

be seen as a reader. You know, it's only one

35:18

CEO the whole time, I I served time, but

35:20

I served as a reader. Know, he was guy

35:22

who worked at the

35:24

door, you know, who worked at the

35:26

door if he wanted to go to a

35:28

low library. He had these books every day and they would be on his desk, but he would have turned

35:30

over as if it was, like, as

35:32

if it was, like, illicit material. And I would

35:34

be, like, what do you read? Why you don't want us

35:38

to know? Must be doing one of the

35:40

romance novels. And, like and and I was I was

35:42

I was I was a GED too at the time. So

35:44

every time I came in, I would mess with him about

35:46

his books. And and he was, you know, he was kind of a hardass. And and people

35:48

disliked it because he took his job seriously and

35:50

he would search you and and he felt like

35:52

he was responsible for making sure contraband

35:56

wasn't passed back and forth. And so people

35:58

disliked him. And I I didn't care because I was a

36:00

handsome contra band, and he hadn't spoke since I

36:02

was just messing

36:04

with Every single time. And and then I got an

36:06

opportunity to work in a low library,

36:08

but he had to approve

36:10

whoever's gonna get hired because it was,

36:12

like, I He was like, look,

36:14

if I don't approve the person, then they

36:16

can't get hired because I think that if you work on

36:18

whatever, you gotta access

36:20

the computers, you can make gambling tickets and things like that. And he's like, I just need trust

36:22

the person. I'm like, he's a young kid. And

36:24

me and him, my whole relationship had just been,

36:26

like, me messing with him over these

36:30

books. And then when I go out for a job, he oks me to get the

36:32

job. And and and I know a lot of

36:34

it had to do with justice back and forth that we

36:36

had about me trying to discover when he

36:38

was reading and I'm not

36:40

telling me. And and I but I worked in a

36:42

law library, and that's how I learned how to do legal

36:44

research, and I ended up going in a law

36:46

school. So years and years later, I end up going to Yale law school.

36:48

And so it's just this way in which I

36:50

think everything is interconnected and and

36:52

and the

36:54

creed is base of beauty creates kind of

36:56

opportunities that I couldn't even predict on the

36:58

front end, but I know what will happen on

37:00

the back end. So

37:02

how many books

37:05

have you put in

37:07

prison so

37:07

far, roughly? How many libraries have you

37:09

been able to to

37:11

to to

37:14

so it's actually been really radical because we started

37:16

our the first time, you and I talked,

37:18

I mean, we went at we

37:20

were part of Yale Law suit, and and then we separated, and now

37:22

we're independent 501C3.

37:25

And, you know, and it

37:27

was I did. It

37:29

was like it was like all dream. But but,

37:31

you know, at this point, we've

37:33

done sixty libraries.

37:37

Across seven states and

37:40

nineteen prisons. Later this

37:42

month, we don't and, you

37:44

know, and I I do say it's it's an experience and

37:46

it's it's labor. Right? When I say that we have these things called ambassadors.

37:48

And the freedom ambassadors are, like, you

37:50

wanna be able to come into a prison

37:52

and not be a lawyer.

37:55

So for instance, we

37:58

did eleven libraries that women's

38:00

prison in in Connecticut. They got eleven

38:02

housing units. We put a library on every

38:04

housing unit. I mean, but that's

38:06

five thousand books and and that's, you know,

38:09

thirty three bookshelves. Right?

38:12

And and so this you physically picking them up and take

38:14

them into a space and that's labor. And so

38:16

we work in with the staff, different

38:20

relationship. But if it's five

38:22

thousand books, that means there's hundreds of boxes

38:24

and you open a box and you're taking a

38:26

plastic out. And so when people come inside

38:28

to support the work sometimes, they they are our

38:30

ambassadors. And and you can't put books on

38:32

the shelf without talking to the people around you. So a

38:34

lot of times, we end up getting conversations

38:37

with staff. We're getting conversations with the people inside. We

38:39

settle them about the project. But yeah.

38:42

So at this point, we've done sixty and and,

38:44

like, we're doing at eighteen it's

38:46

it's a two day stretch later this month. We'll do eighteen in

38:49

a men's prison in California, and

38:51

then there's a women's prison across the street,

38:53

and we're doing five that we'll

38:55

come back and do more than that when it's prison. But over to

38:57

the stretch, you know, we'd be putting in twenty three

39:00

libraries. So so, yeah,

39:02

we we have gone from this thing being dream

39:04

and a idea to actually have in

39:06

states reach out to us and say, you

39:08

know, how can we make this happen?

39:10

And this this self we

39:13

we're gonna be in North Dakota in a

39:15

few months. So, you know, we've been to

39:18

Colorado. We've been to Angola

39:20

in Louisiana. And we and we hired people who just came home, and there's a

39:22

couple of guys who who working with Freedom Rees to spend

39:24

their first job. And and and

39:26

one of the most deeply moving things that I

39:28

did my

39:30

my solar show in Angola at the they got a they got

39:32

a rodeo in Angola that they do every year.

39:34

And so they got the rodeo space, and I

39:38

did my so data piece there, but what has been,

39:40

you know, really interested for me is,

39:42

like, at Angola, one

39:44

of our guys, you know, this guy named

39:46

James Wash and he did twenty five

39:48

years. He got locked up at fifteen.

39:50

So he he grew up in that or he just came

39:52

home. And,

39:54

you know, we go there he built them with

39:56

his hands. And and and and he

39:58

started doing what worked and when he was in prison.

40:00

And so we've returned with these

40:02

war not like these beautifully handcrafted woman

40:05

ourselves. And I see him interacting

40:07

with dudes that he's known, you

40:09

know, for years. That was deeply,

40:12

deeply, deeply meaningful and powerful.

40:14

And and having him there, I

40:16

think, just made me

40:18

recognize that you know, when you talk beauty

40:20

beauty, it is

40:24

persistent and and it's evident that it

40:26

brings people

40:28

joy when you see a circumstance like that, when you see somebody like him

40:30

bringing him in, you just see this immediate

40:32

connection. So so, yeah, we're really excited

40:34

about the work. And I think

40:36

we did fifty libraries last year. We'll do a hundred

40:39

and fifty this

40:39

year. What's the total? Do you

40:41

have a goal?

40:44

We have a goal. I mean, so

40:45

the goal is really the saturated prisons. You know? And and

40:47

I think it's saturated on its

40:49

things. Is saturated?

40:51

Factory. Because, like, you don't wanna create more

40:54

inequity. So if people don't understand why

40:56

we put in more housing in. We put in more housing units

40:58

because a lot of prisons do

41:00

have libraries. But the libraries are open from eighty to five. And if you have a

41:02

full time job, then you don't go to the

41:04

library. And if you got a prison with, like, a

41:06

thousand people in

41:08

one library, it's impossible for all

41:10

of those people directly go to the library

41:12

anyway. But more importantly, we think

41:14

about this combination of books

41:16

and beauty And what does it mean to

41:18

witness somebody being a reader? Because the the reader goes to the library. But

41:20

then even when you go to the library, will you get exposed

41:23

to anything you know, where you get exposed

41:26

to the odyssey. Will you

41:27

randomly pick up? You know, it's a great book on

41:29

a gentleman in Moscow. You know,

41:32

when you where you if you never heard of it, then how do you know about it? You

41:34

know? So so by us

41:36

putting cure rate in this time hundred book collection, I

41:38

think we we basically cure rate

41:40

in opportunities And

41:42

so each prison will have, like, between six housing

41:44

units and ten housing units. And so if

41:46

we say that we wanna saturate because we don't wanna create

41:48

more inequity, then we always try to

41:51

put libraries on, like, sixty percent of the housing

41:53

loans. Right? So that it could be a thing

41:55

that people experience and that just some

41:57

special thing for for this group of

41:59

prisoners who are working in the kitchen for this group of prisoners who are taking college courses.

42:02

It could be something that's democratic and

42:04

it's for

42:06

everybody. And so if you just take the number of state prisons, it's it's tripping under

42:08

state prisons. So you must flatten out,

42:10

you know, we're talking about trying to build

42:13

ten thousand libraries. And

42:16

and so I I do say, you know, we have a

42:18

goal. The moon shot

42:20

is to make this a part of

42:22

the live experience and somebody who does time. You

42:24

know, suffering is a part of the living experience with

42:26

somebody who does time.

42:28

But I do think books will my conduit

42:30

to become a different person.

42:33

Books to a a conduit to me,

42:35

understanding myself and understanding the

42:37

world better. And so we wanna

42:39

make that opportunity present in anybody's experience of

42:42

incarceration. And so, yeah, our moonshot

42:44

go is

42:47

sometimes I I'm I'm you know, I'm like, I

42:49

don't even wanna stay an hour loud, you

42:51

know, because it's a it's a significant

42:54

cost. It's

42:56

a it's a logistical nightmare. You know, I I found myself

42:58

now. Really deeply understand that

43:00

we're working in a way that I had no

43:02

idea about it. When, you know, when I

43:05

started project, understand, like, what it means

43:08

to to fit project

43:10

products from, like, from

43:12

Connecticut to

43:14

Colorado from Connecticut to California, you know, and I and I

43:16

also understand something about what it

43:18

means to try to build a label for

43:22

us. Right? And so if I articulate the the big goal, it it

43:24

it feels a little bit overwhelming.

43:26

But the big goal is is

43:28

to do five, ten,

43:30

fifteen thousand of these libraries

43:32

because that becomes five

43:34

to fifteen thousand opportunities, not just

43:37

for people in prison to discover books

43:39

and beauty, not just for people who work there

43:41

to discover books and beauty, but but for us

43:44

to make it more

43:46

more porous. You know, the the the the the

43:48

wall that separates prisoners

43:50

from those on the outside of a

43:52

responsible force. With

43:54

a project like this. And I think I think that's meaningful for

43:56

for all of

43:57

us. And and and, you know, even

43:59

if you just have

44:01

You you hate to use yourself as an example,

44:03

but, like, 2345,

44:07

twenty, thirty people. To have some of

44:09

the experiences that I I've had in this life,

44:12

you know, both when I was in prison and

44:14

since I've been home, I think

44:16

that there's

44:18

something of I'm a I'm a I'm a like, well, if if I

44:20

could be the the the vehicle for

44:22

others to get the experience of

44:24

that stuff. Do you

44:27

hear

44:27

from people who are reading the books?

44:30

Do you know

44:31

if they're being read? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

44:33

We I mean, so this is an occasion where, like, we sent books out

44:35

before they've been published, you know,

44:37

honorary jeffers. I think, you know, a a

44:39

book when a national bookable.

44:42

But the the love songs

44:44

of WEB. DeBoise, you know, her

44:46

publishing gave us, like, thirty copies. Then we

44:48

sent it to a group of guys and a

44:50

prison in Texas, and they raided before it came

44:52

out, and they wrote out his handwritten notes, you

44:54

know, about his

44:55

book. And And III went to the Zoom with with with

44:58

women in with women in in a different

45:00

text in Texas prison. I went to

45:02

the Zoom when

45:04

we first did the library, one of the first places we put one that, it was

45:06

a it was a segregated housing unit.

45:09

Right? And it was for people

45:11

who didn't protect capacity. And

45:13

and when I started this, I I wasn't actually even I

45:16

was thinking about myself, you know, so I

45:18

wasn't in

45:20

PC. I spent a

45:21

lot of time in a whole, but I was thinking about myself in general

45:23

population. And then in collaborating with the

45:25

DOC, you know, it was like,

45:27

well, we need a segregated housing

45:30

that these guys never go to the library.

45:32

They they know, and and they they

45:34

live their lives in a cell, you

45:36

know, because they're free. Because they have and they

45:38

have legitimate reasons to be afraid of a lot of

45:40

times. So so they

45:42

said a Zoom call would mean these ads.

45:44

Right? And one of the do's

45:46

do my name, and he wrote my book, and he got to

45:48

argue with me for, like, why wasn't my book in the

45:50

library? He's like, you know, this all matter the whole lot

45:52

more. When I realized that you had did it because you're

45:54

not raged a book. It's it's kinda good too.

45:56

Yeah. It's kinda kinda good. But but

45:59

it was this guy. No. Where's that? I don't

46:01

forget this man. It was this guy. Owed away because

46:03

he was, like, and everybody it was, like, AAD. You know, everybody introduced themselves and

46:05

say, how long have you been in prison? And I also thought

46:07

that I did the project for for the kid. It

46:09

was, like, me. Betts

46:12

what I found is the project has ultimately been for

46:14

for the me who if

46:16

I was still in prison. You know, the

46:18

the people that I talked to about this work. There

46:20

have been people who've been locked up for twenty

46:22

years and twenty five

46:23

years. And this guy said, he's not been locked up for

46:25

twenty seven years,

46:27

and And I don't know if you noticed, but I'm gonna tell you. Because I

46:29

was like, why would I know that?

46:31

You know? And he said, man, but

46:33

I picked up his

46:36

book, Bariscans. He's like, you know, this

46:38

novel. Man, this is a boat. A talent is just like the talent my family

46:40

comes from. And he started telling me how

46:42

he had been inside for so long.

46:46

That he forgot what home was. And because we had that

46:48

book in the collection, he was,

46:50

you know, saying that he reconnected

46:53

with that space. And so so it's been

46:55

interesting than talking to people about it. And

46:57

we have some videos online. We got

46:59

a newsletter. You can subscribe to the newsletter.

47:01

We try to you know, produce stories to give you

47:03

a glimpse of of what it means. And

47:06

and it is. It's

47:08

it's always It's always

47:10

sort of humbling because

47:12

people when you go in and you and you unbox. So

47:14

the book's one of the things you hear

47:15

is, I wonder if that book

47:17

is

47:17

there. And then and then they were fine. I was like, oh, man, I

47:19

I think you go ahead. That's what, you know.

47:22

And and sometimes it's like, I always wanted to

47:24

read this and and, you know, five

47:26

hundred books is is something for

47:28

everybody to discover that they never heard

47:30

of. But as I

47:32

I snuck out of sniffing it, you know, we had talked about

47:34

this before. I snuck

47:36

your book on Adam Smith and Edward. That's how that's

47:38

how I snuck Adam Smith and Edward as

47:40

opposed to, like, the actual Adam

47:42

Smith book. Because it's it's really dense. But I I think,

47:44

you know, the thing is somebody's gonna pick that up.

47:47

And and I'll just remember being introduced to the

47:49

idea what it means to be lovely. And

47:51

so somebody will pick that up and get introduced to that

47:53

idea, and it will literally, I know, carry

47:55

them through a bunch of days.

47:57

So so, yeah, we got feedback and

47:59

feedback has been because it had because,

48:04

you know, for better worksbooks are

48:06

not renamed. Yeah.

48:08

You know, I

48:11

I was preparing

48:13

for this interview. I

48:17

just interviewed Tiffany Jenkins.

48:20

You haven't heard of yet? Franklin's ten

48:22

come out yet by elevator yesterday. It's about

48:25

the British Museum and other museums

48:27

that have stuff from the past that

48:29

they haven't returned and or, excuse me,

48:31

they bring pressure to return.

48:33

Like the Elgin Marbles from the Parthenon and

48:35

many, many, many other things like

48:38

her. And and, of course, of her book is

48:40

a little history of of museums

48:42

and the desire to collect, and she tells a

48:44

story in there. I think it's talked about an error, so I'm

48:46

cheating a little bit, and I'm adding

48:48

it here. About

48:52

Han's slown whose

48:54

collection becomes the British Museum. When he dies,

48:57

this is guy I sixteen sixty to

48:59

seventeen something. And he's a collector. He's

49:01

a crazy collector. He's got fifty

49:03

thousand books and

49:06

seventeen thousand pieces or something, and he collects

49:08

everything. And he for a while, his since the

49:10

British Museum didn't exist and he was

49:12

a collector, His

49:16

house was the museum. And people will come to his

49:18

house. And the composer,

49:21

Haendel, who wrote,

49:23

you know, the Messiah, and

49:25

other great works of music supposedly came to his

49:28

house but put a

49:30

buttered muffin the

49:32

manuscripts in his Redaction,

49:36

which he didn't like. And,

49:38

you know,

49:40

And I'm reading that. I've heard her from I read

49:42

it, I guess. But then I heard it

49:44

talking to Tiffany, we didn't get it

49:46

in the episode. But, you know, I'm thinking,

49:49

I can relate to that because I think

49:51

I've told the story before when

49:53

I was when I was seven

49:55

years old, I threw

49:58

a book tossed it across the room, and my dad gave

50:00

me spanking. And

50:02

I never threw a book again, and I've

50:04

always thought a book says something

50:06

sacred is something that you don't

50:08

put a butter muffin on and you don't throw them. And

50:10

when you read them, you don't crack

50:13

the spine and you trade them

50:16

with deep

50:18

deep respect. And as I was thinking

50:20

about talking to you about

50:23

this, You know, I'm thinking, why is it

50:25

that you and me, and we're

50:27

not alone? Why do we think a book

50:29

says so special?

50:32

Is so potentially transformed, but it's part of the reason president of a college

50:34

that emphasizes actually

50:36

reading books that not just heard about it

50:39

in a lecture. Our students are in

50:41

small seminars, so they actually read the books. It's really a novel pardon

50:44

the pun, novel idea. And

50:49

Sure. Books change your

50:52

life and they, you know, they've changed

50:54

mine, obviously. I don't think that's

50:56

the reason. I

50:58

I think I think I have and I suspect you do

51:00

as well something

51:02

close to a religious attitude

51:05

toward books that Now

51:07

they represent in many ways the highest form

51:10

of human achievement

51:12

that that we can speak and

51:15

have languages extraordinary. That we

51:17

can somehow communicate across

51:20

Connecticut to Jerusalem is

51:22

extraordinary that we can preserve our

51:25

thoughts and ideas with little black lines inside something you can

51:27

hold your hand and you

51:30

give that to someone and it shakes them

51:32

up or lifts

51:34

their spirits, or shows

51:36

them a future they might have or

51:38

teaches them about the human heart and conflict with

51:40

itself, it's

51:43

a it's magic. And and so

51:45

I have a radical

51:51

view of books that your project,

51:53

you know, moves me deeply because I

51:56

believe in it. It's

51:58

not rational, right, to

52:00

think that a

52:02

person's gonna pull a book off the shelf, read it before it goes to bed at

52:04

night and change. But I

52:06

believe in it. And and I

52:08

think it could be true. But I

52:11

wanna believe in it much more have reasonably been

52:13

it. What what is

52:16

that?

52:17

Yeah. And for me though, I I like I I

52:19

like wanna believe in it. And actually, I

52:21

wanna believe in it independent of whether

52:23

or not it's true. Like

52:26

like, it it provides me

52:28

solace, the very notion

52:30

that, you know, like I said, a book is

52:32

not a grenade. And and and and people would not argue about

52:34

the kinda damage that a grenade could do or

52:36

the kinda damage that a bullet

52:38

could do. All

52:40

all the kind of relief that those things might provide if if

52:43

you're dealing

52:43

with, like, some, you know, wars,

52:46

some some wars are

52:48

legitimate. Right?

52:49

But to believe that a book could have

52:51

that same kind of weight. You

52:54

know, could could have that same kind of

52:55

influence, could have the same kind

52:58

of significance. And, also, I I just wanted to know anything that,

53:00

like, looks like something

53:01

about who was present in the world

53:03

at a particular time.

53:06

And and I think it's our only way of remaining president in the

53:08

world even if we say that, you know,

53:10

you're alive as long as somebody still

53:13

is telling you story. Well,

53:15

books are the way that

53:17

that that story gets told,

53:19

you know, for perpetuity. You

53:21

know, instead of instead of books

53:23

dissipated a story, is always

53:24

there. So I actually feel like, you know,

53:26

the the last bit of footprint of

53:30

civilization, you know, in some ways, it's marked.

53:33

About a book as a kind of permanence. And

53:35

then also, I I just think, honestly,

53:37

the the the real reason why I've done all of these things

53:39

in my life, you know, and it's it's so

53:42

strange that the most significant things in my life have

53:44

come via the book,

53:46

but those things haven't

53:48

been predicted you

53:50

couldn't predict it from the beginning. You know? Like,

53:52

that black polis comes into my life

53:55

and I become a poet. You

53:57

you can't predict that. Or I'm looking

53:59

for Sophie's world, and I read Sophie's choice, and it

54:01

connects me to the heritage and the history

54:03

of a great person that

54:06

introduced me to Sophie's

54:08

world. You know, I understood

54:10

more about the holocaust from reading

54:12

Sophie's choice in a real way than I

54:14

did from going to the museum. I mean, I understood

54:16

something about the legacy,

54:18

the heart, the actual fact I

54:20

would haven't occurred, but reading Sophie's choice may

54:22

be carried around with me in my head, in

54:24

my heart. For a long time in this

54:27

in Sophie Choice, more than a museum is why

54:29

I remember that teaching. Right? So I think

54:31

that these Betts, they they

54:33

just they The first time I was

54:35

out, I I was on a front page at The Washington Post in two thousand six. It

54:37

was because

54:38

I started a book club for boys.

54:42

and and, like, the stuff that happened

54:44

from my engagement and interaction

54:46

with books, it hasn't

54:48

been transactional. Redaction I

54:50

think that's what, you know, we share, but I think anybody

54:52

who loves books recognizes that their

54:54

relationship with the books has never

54:58

been transactional. But often, it has provided these kind

55:00

of of rewards

55:02

that people crave with them even if it's just,

55:04

like, even if you know, like, you you,

55:06

like, know, you're not obsessed with

55:08

books the way some of us are.

55:10

But but you remember that one book. You

55:12

remember this time? Like, actually, it comes up to

55:14

me last night. He's

55:15

like, you know, can I'm anxious up

55:17

there? Up.

55:17

I read this book and and, you know, we were going

55:20

back and forth about, like, yo, you know, comes to

55:22

that and read you with me, and he's on a break.

55:24

And he's like, I wanna play

55:26

Minecraft, so he's having it comes

55:28

to down and and read with me. I'm reading the stamps because my my oldest

55:30

son, he loves the loves Christina

55:34

King and he likes to book the stand and he was like, I want you to read this

55:36

and it's like fifteen hundred pages. And I'm like,

55:38

I don't wanna read

55:40

this. But I'm

55:42

reading it, and I'm finding a fascinating, and my youngest

55:44

son is beside me reading this book, and last lady

55:46

says, oh, he can be part two of

55:48

his book. And and it's

55:50

just that even just the the

55:52

the the the the fact that a book could give

55:54

you desire to go deeper into another

55:56

world, it's just something

55:58

that doesn't exist in the same

56:00

way that anything else in this world

56:02

looked. There's nothing else

56:04

that that does it quite the same way. I

56:08

mean, strained. I mean, I got this book. This is like it's like walk.

56:10

You know? And it's a cookbook. Right? But

56:12

it's a it's a book. It's an exploration

56:14

into this person. It's like,

56:17

if you know, like, the very idea of a

56:19

book just as well

56:21

how satisfying as well

56:23

how how how people literally

56:25

can build lives around three hundred pages

56:28

and four hundred

56:28

pages. And I think it says

56:32

something about

56:34

it is

56:34

is is is in itself just a beautiful notion, you know,

56:37

that you could build your whole

56:39

life around trying to

56:41

to words on the page

56:43

and imagine somebody else will read it

56:45

and then the reading

56:48

experience a slice of your mind,

56:50

nothing is sudden just

56:54

irreducibly beautiful

56:56

about that. Talked a little

56:57

bit recently about communication

57:00

when talking about Patrick House about consciousness

57:03

and how we assume the

57:06

person across the table

57:08

is hearing the words that we're hearing because we're

57:10

saying them and we know they can hear

57:12

them. They don't hear the same

57:14

words. They don't conjure up the same images.

57:16

Their mind is wandering, and they're filtering

57:18

it in a different way,

57:20

and The

57:22

the idea that you could write

57:24

those words on paper and

57:27

someone would actually

57:29

understand them is miraculous. Is

57:32

and profoundly human. Again, there's nothing

57:34

I don't think it's you could argue there's really

57:36

nothing more human than that. It

57:39

is our highest expression

57:42

or highest action

57:46

activity. Let's

57:48

turn to your latest

57:49

project, which is a book called

57:52

redaction. It's collaboration

57:54

with you and an artist.

57:57

Explain the collaboration and how it came

58:00

about?

58:00

And, you know, it's it's really

58:02

it's so tight as so far as the artist I'm working

58:04

with, and he lives in Nathan too

58:07

and and, you know, with friends. And and I

58:09

think that, you know, maybe in the back of my

58:11

head, we always wanted to do something together, but how

58:13

do you figure out the thing

58:15

to do? And and particularly with, like, visual arts and

58:17

poetry. Because always, the the challenges is the poetry gonna

58:20

be a substrate for the art or would the

58:22

art become a substrate for

58:24

the poetry. And

58:26

he was in Maine at Boden

58:28

College and at at a

58:30

residency, and he was messing around with printmaking.

58:32

And he, you know, called me up and

58:34

say, hey, on y'all can remain. You don't take your vacation down here. I mean, you could go to

58:36

studio. And so we went and we started

58:38

doing some work together and

58:41

messing around with, you know,

58:44

using silk screen and

58:46

and etching to combine

58:48

to poetry and the art. And

58:50

I was I was doing these poems, these redacted poems, and they were really

58:52

visually arresting. And so I was like, oh,

58:54

this is perfect. Because the

58:56

redaction poems they were

58:58

based on these class action lawsuits where people

59:00

were were challenging,

59:02

Bill, and a challenging being

59:05

locked up. And and and hail because they

59:07

couldn't pay traffic tickets, they couldn't pay

59:09

quote fees, or they couldn't pay

59:11

low level bill.

59:14

Right? And and and he's you know, I was I was

59:16

struggling with the fact that I was a lawyer

59:18

for a study to become a lawyer.

59:21

And I thought that these cases were compelling, but they

59:23

were filled with legalese, you know, and it's

59:25

a fifty page document and frequently is

59:27

not gonna

59:29

be decided

59:29

on on the heart of the matter. It's gonna be

59:31

decided on some legal point, you

59:33

know, some something that really felt like

59:35

my new shit And so I

59:37

was messing around with redaction. I was like, well, what if we redacted to get to

59:39

just the salient points? And we

59:42

didn't redact to

59:44

obscure what was in a text, but we've redacted

59:46

to reveal what was in a text.

59:48

As I started, you know, redacting these

59:52

court documents, and then working on things like, oh, what if I put the x

59:54

things of people behind that? You know?

59:56

And so it's almost like you get

59:58

this doubling, you get

1:00:00

the voice, and and

1:00:02

the image, but they're both pushing in the same

1:00:04

direction. And in a mugshot,

1:00:06

it's this class of the, you

1:00:09

know, the reason why they do mug shots and and driver's

1:00:11

license is that picture in that way

1:00:13

because you get most of the face and

1:00:15

and you could really, you

1:00:18

know, like, like, as opposed to a savvy or something like that. But we

1:00:20

turn the mugshot into a

1:00:22

statement because when you see somebody,

1:00:24

you say that's a mugshot. And he was like, what if we

1:00:26

did that? But we made it

1:00:28

beautiful. We did these portraits of people. And it

1:00:30

wouldn't necessarily be the people that were involved

1:00:32

in the case, but you could imagine it. And then

1:00:34

he he doubled

1:00:36

it. So So, anyway, so we we do this project and and me and him are just

1:00:38

messing around, and we go and we meet

1:00:40

with Sara Suzuki at

1:00:42

at choose

1:00:44

a curiosity that she works at a moment at the Museum

1:00:46

of Modern art. And we just go and meet where

1:00:48

because she was available types of work, and

1:00:51

she didn't titus. And we just go to talk to her about the

1:00:53

project. So this is, I guess,

1:00:54

it's, like, two thousand eighteen

1:00:58

maybe. I think it's, like, two

1:01:00

thousand eighteen, yeah, two thousand

1:01:03

eighteen, two thousand nineteen. It's two thousand

1:01:05

nineteen. Do we go meet with it,

1:01:07

like, January two thousand nineteen? I said,

1:01:09

oh, this would be great. But, know, I'll count on it for moments, like, exhibits. It's, like,

1:01:11

two or three years down the line, but you can go

1:01:13

to Momo PS line. If we

1:01:15

could do this, I mean, we could

1:01:17

do this. Then, man, we just wanted to talk to about the idea, and we just had some testers

1:01:20

that we had done. And she says

1:01:22

so then she said to the court,

1:01:25

with the person at Ryan's moment on PS one. Now,

1:01:28

like, yeah, we could do we would let it have you all be a part

1:01:30

of this exhibit that we wanna put up

1:01:32

in March. I'm clerking

1:01:34

for a federal judge in

1:01:36

Pennsylvania and Philly, you

1:01:38

know. And right now, this is just the idea in

1:01:40

our head. This is not, like,

1:01:42

anything finished. And now this is January. We got from January to

1:01:44

March to find a printer who

1:01:46

could do this. Right? To find a master

1:01:48

printer who could actually work with us to

1:01:50

produce these

1:01:52

things. And and man, it was, like, A34

1:01:54

month period of my life that was brown. I mean, some

1:01:56

days, I would be for for hours each

1:01:58

day, I would be in Connecticut New

1:02:01

York and Philly, you know, just going back and

1:02:04

forth. But it came

1:02:06

out, and and we did fifty prints. And,

1:02:08

typically, you know, you because each poem was about five

1:02:10

to eight pages long. So we

1:02:12

did a print for each palm, and it showed that the

1:02:14

process developed. And we printed on

1:02:16

black paper, and it was

1:02:18

beautiful. But we did it, and the

1:02:20

exhibit was and people came, and it was it was great. But then we realized that

1:02:22

this you know, if you're not in New York and you

1:02:24

never heard them on with PS one,

1:02:26

you would never

1:02:28

see this. And so we decided to do a book. And we

1:02:30

wanted the book to be a a obvious to beauty

1:02:32

and and and to be something that

1:02:34

was also, like so if you and when

1:02:36

you went when breeders get it

1:02:38

and and they should get it because I think it's

1:02:39

beautiful. You

1:02:41

know, man'sitis put some money into it

1:02:43

to reduce the cost. Because

1:02:45

we it's three different kinds of paper in

1:02:47

a book. You could just print it with four

1:02:49

colors, but we print it with, like, seven or

1:02:52

eight colors. We printed on black paper and the

1:02:54

Redaction which were on black paper.

1:02:56

And and they exhibit, we put it

1:02:58

on black paper here. Betts

1:03:01

we also didn't put an image on on each side of the page. We wanted the image just to

1:03:03

be on one page so that, you know, if

1:03:05

you wanted to cut that out and put it on the

1:03:07

wall, you basically got a

1:03:10

mono print. We use cold glue, so the book opens up flat on each

1:03:12

page. You don't have to worry about breaking a siren

1:03:14

when you open it, you know, we use cold glue to

1:03:16

facilitate, like, really enjoying

1:03:18

a book. And

1:03:20

then we use we we got, you know, three sections that's

1:03:22

retrospectives on his work and my work. And at

1:03:24

first, I was going to use a old poem. It

1:03:26

was gonna be poem from previous books.

1:03:28

But then I you know, we got to work on the project. And and I was like, man, III

1:03:31

like these new forms. I'm writing. And so and

1:03:33

so now the book has

1:03:35

all new forms. For

1:03:38

me about forty, fifty pounds. It

1:03:40

has all the redaction pieces Redaction, it

1:03:42

has a bunch of tightness that's working. And it's

1:03:44

it's interesting that I was I'm really proud

1:03:46

of it. And and wait because, like, I

1:03:48

said, you know, I I was in

1:03:50

a prison and I went into this prison and

1:03:52

I had my

1:03:54

full Betts. And when I

1:03:56

read it from the first recollections in the poetry,

1:03:58

you know, each each poem it was

1:04:00

holler for me to

1:04:01

read, and

1:04:01

I felt like like, the poems weren't doing what I wanted them

1:04:03

to do to orientated. You know, it's it's sort

1:04:06

of like if a a drone a man didn't

1:04:08

wanna wanna

1:04:10

hear about the story of a drowned man necessarily, you know.

1:04:12

And I got some redaction poems, and and I

1:04:14

could just feel the light lifting in the

1:04:16

space. Because I I knew that I

1:04:18

had written these

1:04:20

arms to have some joy

1:04:22

in it. And it was my first time actually really

1:04:24

as a ray that my wife tells me it's a lie that's,

1:04:26

like, you you know, you're right about prison

1:04:28

or not. what about writing about something that has some some some light

1:04:30

in it. And and

1:04:32

this was my first time really pursuing it. And and

1:04:34

and I wasn't even pursuing it to collect

1:04:36

a a book. I was just waiting for

1:04:39

a friend who was going through something and and trying to rate

1:04:41

in that way, maybe pay attention to the world

1:04:43

in a different way. I

1:04:45

remember just reading those poems in his prison and

1:04:48

a and a whole room changed, man. You get you can see

1:04:50

it on people's faces and by the end. They were like,

1:04:52

well, where

1:04:54

You know, and and I was reading from it was not out

1:04:56

yet. So I I was like, I don't have copies with you

1:04:58

guys yet, but I can't wait to actually, you

1:05:00

know, we made a cloth down so that

1:05:02

it has has to

1:05:04

fill a hard back

1:05:05

book, but

1:05:06

but it's not a hard back book because you

1:05:08

can't get hard back books in prison. And so we did

1:05:10

all of these, like, subtle things even in a

1:05:13

book. You know, is one of the pages we consider to book

1:05:15

the the third exhibit of redaction

1:05:18

and and which is just to

1:05:20

say that you know, when you hold it, it's like we like to believe that holding

1:05:22

it. It's a combination of going to a poetry

1:05:24

reading and going to a museum. And even

1:05:26

the poems, a hundred poems on

1:05:28

a page, with

1:05:30

our titles in a statement

1:05:32

that you hang art on the wall so

1:05:34

that it becomes a a run

1:05:35

commentary. But you've experienced a

1:05:38

poem in in a different way, I think, than

1:05:40

than we would experience a

1:05:42

poem? I'd like

1:05:44

you to read one of them. You

1:05:46

have a problem that's first line is

1:05:48

we waited without a name. Now

1:05:52

I think I

1:05:54

think, Duane. I might be wrong. When you read a

1:05:57

poem on your first

1:05:59

appearance here, you're that

1:06:02

we were I think it was your first appearance,

1:06:04

we talked about Fallon, which was a a poetry collection of

1:06:06

yours. And it's it's dark

1:06:10

as you were saying, and these these pumps

1:06:12

in this new collection, ironically,

1:06:14

perhaps, or Redaction

1:06:17

pumps are or dark. Obviously, they're

1:06:20

they're they're

1:06:22

a little bit harrowing. They're

1:06:25

there's a point in. They're

1:06:27

powerful. Betts they're mixed in

1:06:29

with these new Redaction,

1:06:31

but full Palms ears. But

1:06:33

I think when you read the first one, I think you read it

1:06:35

from memory. And I think you changed

1:06:38

a little bit. And it and

1:06:40

Dana Joya, the poet who

1:06:42

was on here also changed when

1:06:44

he read one of his poems, he read it.

1:06:46

So I don't know if you're gonna

1:06:48

read, which which I love, by the way,

1:06:50

some of my favorite moments

1:06:52

of of hosting the show is to have

1:06:55

a poet write a poem

1:06:57

on the show, essentially, read

1:06:59

it. Just a little bit differently than how we wrote

1:07:01

it is a is a

1:07:03

unique moment. But

1:07:06

I don't know if you're gonna read we wait without name it off

1:07:08

of of a text, but I'll

1:07:11

take it either way.

1:07:13

Alright. Cool. Let

1:07:14

me see what I could do. We

1:07:17

waited without

1:07:19

a name for your

1:07:22

wonder. And after

1:07:24

your birth, after you

1:07:26

entered this world whereling like the

1:07:28

dragon, your tiny hands reaching

1:07:31

for late at the jumbo

1:07:33

jets hour. We waited.

1:07:36

And three days passed

1:07:38

without words, to announce this gift. And I

1:07:40

read poems to myself

1:07:42

and didn't think of the

1:07:44

company I gave you years later.

1:07:48

Or the compass, you become, for me, in

1:07:51

that afternoon, for the first

1:07:53

time I was

1:07:56

not lost. Just

1:07:58

discovering a story to

1:08:00

tell myself about the

1:08:03

world. Aren't we always looking for a

1:08:06

story to tell ourselves

1:08:08

isn't

1:08:09

a name just a shorthand

1:08:11

or a myth? He

1:08:15

gave you two words, a

1:08:18

word in his tongue.

1:08:21

The English, a translation, or a Hebrew,

1:08:23

or vice versa. Each, the name

1:08:25

of the uncle you

1:08:28

never meet. The

1:08:31

names pulled from the book, some

1:08:33

wonder. When I held

1:08:36

you, his little

1:08:38

body was neither well know

1:08:41

how.

1:08:41

I was so fragile and an afraid of these, shiver her hands,

1:08:43

or a warm water

1:08:46

that I banged you

1:08:48

with. Delayed and

1:08:50

spilled from your mother's belly, patient and smiling day.

1:08:54

As if you knew,

1:08:58

you were first born to

1:09:03

find me worthy. That's

1:09:07

just so beautiful. I

1:09:12

had nothing to say. I was gonna ask you about names, but forget

1:09:14

it. I'm not gonna ask you about names. Did did you read that did you

1:09:17

just recite that from

1:09:19

heart by

1:09:20

heart? It's it's it's

1:09:22

actually in my show. So it was, like, fifty fifty. Yeah. You're saying because

1:09:24

we we did not give anybody the

1:09:26

background on that. You did a solar show

1:09:31

And you're saying, in that solo show, you would this was

1:09:33

one of the things. You decided to say, yeah.

1:09:35

So I know that one.

1:09:37

You know them pretty well. This is it's interesting too though

1:09:39

because, like, before I did my soloist, I did a solo show

1:09:41

based on, like, my life in the book selling. And

1:09:44

the reason why I

1:09:46

did it is is is also I recognize moves up And,

1:09:48

you know, I wanna go into a prison

1:09:50

and do the show and and and entice

1:09:52

people for what they will get

1:09:54

from inside of a book. Right?

1:09:57

And being a poet, you know, my folks would be

1:09:59

like, oh, you're you're a poet, say a poem. And for years, I I couldn't I didn't have my

1:10:01

book, I I couldn't give you

1:10:03

a poem. So part

1:10:06

of doing the solo show was was to try to

1:10:08

stretch as a

1:10:09

artist. And that's the fascinating too, but

1:10:11

that's one of the poems. That's that's in the

1:10:13

show. And so that's that's one of the reasons. So,

1:10:15

I mean, this the the reason why I was able to do a part of my heart the first time this time is because, you know,

1:10:17

trying to become and becoming

1:10:20

a performer has

1:10:22

made me, like, value the art of memorization in a way that

1:10:25

I hadn't force. But so now I know everybody's

1:10:27

work, you know. I I like,

1:10:29

everything I like, the afters night poems. I I know

1:10:31

those by heart. I know so, anyways,

1:10:33

there's been a a radical transformation at how

1:10:36

III met that that I wasn't

1:10:38

made to learn things my heart when I was a kid, you know,

1:10:40

just just, like, it should have been

1:10:42

a fundamental part of of education.

1:10:45

I I remember nothing

1:10:47

from from seventh grade. If

1:10:49

they would have just made me memorize Shakespeare, at least I would remember that. You know, it's just

1:10:51

this thing of but we people you know, we imagine

1:10:53

the things that we force people to

1:10:56

learn will we'll

1:10:58

we'll be carrying with them for the rest of their lives. And often

1:11:01

it's not, and then things that they will

1:11:03

carry with them is like it's too much

1:11:05

work though, you know, is it's too difficult to make

1:11:07

you spend a lot of time on one book, you know. Let's let's

1:11:09

just do hey. III

1:11:11

sweat. We read we

1:11:14

we read a

1:11:16

we read a

1:11:19

Julie season in,

1:11:20

like, three weeks. And

1:11:23

it's temporary. Like, what kind of absurdity

1:11:25

is that? Like, you know, we would have got

1:11:27

I would have gotten more out of just

1:11:29

reading twenty lines for three weeks as opposed

1:11:31

to, like, being forced to cram all of Julius

1:11:34

Caesar into, like, a three

1:11:37

week period. It it it was

1:11:39

just as a as a template as somebody who was completely unfamiliar with

1:11:41

a text is basically in

1:11:43

another language completely unfamiliar

1:11:46

with the history and So anyway

1:11:49

yeah. I I braided up most of the dog. Yeah. I've mentioned

1:11:51

my eighth grade teacher, miss Kettin on here before. I'll mention her again

1:11:53

that she made us redo

1:11:55

lysys by heart. I'm

1:11:58

not sure she made everybody learn it, but maybe she gave it as an option. And I

1:12:00

did that. It's a long bomb. It's

1:12:02

not super super long, but it's that

1:12:07

I'm gonna guess it's sixty lines, something like that. And

1:12:09

I wish I knew it all by

1:12:11

heart still. I know a

1:12:14

chunk of it. I know the opening and I

1:12:16

know the ending, which are the best parts, I

1:12:18

just wanna say. But I'm grateful for

1:12:21

that and I'm grateful you know, for all the problems my

1:12:24

dad read to me often enough

1:12:26

that I know chunks of them by

1:12:28

heart. And

1:12:31

my kids all know stopping by snow

1:12:33

on a stopping by woods

1:12:35

in a snowy evening. I think I have that

1:12:37

right. I can't remember the title, but I can read

1:12:40

the poem. The cross

1:12:41

problem. And and they all know it by heart too, still as as

1:12:44

adults. It's

1:12:48

It is a sweet gift that's

1:12:50

undervalued. I encourage all parents out there. And it it's great

1:12:53

to read. Your your

1:12:55

problems were complex, but you

1:12:58

know, pumps that rhyme like by on snowy evening or

1:13:04

limping my kids know a lot

1:13:06

of sibling by heart because he's so memorable, literally. He's easy to remember.

1:13:08

He's got a

1:13:11

great rhythm and he's they know

1:13:13

some Robert service by heart, it would

1:13:15

fall in that category also. So I encourage all parents listening there to

1:13:17

to read Palms to

1:13:20

your kids often. And

1:13:22

I'd include winning the pool in there, and and when we were six, and not winning the

1:13:24

pool. When we were

1:13:26

six, the AML Palms, her

1:13:31

I am and, like, we're, like, we're the sidewalk in -- Yeah. -- you

1:13:33

know, like, oh, for me in the building. Like

1:13:36

yeah. I've I've I

1:13:38

learned that's the first one I learned about and and still it,

1:13:40

you know, it it it took me took me took

1:13:42

me too. So actually, I think it's last name,

1:13:44

just the the idea of,

1:13:46

you know, the memorization part it

1:13:49

almost creates a a geographical connection to work and a historical connection

1:13:51

to work for you in a in a way

1:13:53

that, you know, reading reading book

1:13:55

does too, but if

1:13:59

you if if if you know about how you

1:14:01

can carry around with you wherever you are.

1:14:03

You know? But my it's funny.

1:14:05

I knew most of

1:14:07

the problems I mentioned, say the ball

1:14:09

to east and

1:14:10

west. I kept playing my dad taught to me and certainly

1:14:12

the frost. I bet it

1:14:14

was on a show evening. And

1:14:19

Betts, those prompts are in my children's

1:14:21

beds. This is where I know

1:14:24

them prompt because I read

1:14:26

them to them. And that's

1:14:28

where they'll always be. And ulysses will

1:14:30

always be and miss Canadian eighth

1:14:36

grade class. So just

1:14:38

the way it is. Let's close with one more if you would. I don't know if you know this one

1:14:40

by heart, but this brother is

1:14:42

dancing in the city, which is

1:14:47

another beautiful beautiful poem here out for this

1:14:49

new book? Actually,

1:14:50

I know I don't know this

1:14:52

on my heart, but it's funny I

1:14:54

wrote this on on my birthday. Last

1:14:57

my thing, like, last

1:14:59

year, after my book and William said past.

1:15:01

And and what's

1:15:04

interesting is,

1:15:06

you know, I didn't know

1:15:08

that I

1:15:09

forgot I

1:15:10

wrote the

1:15:11

poem. I I just,

1:15:13

like I literally have forgot that

1:15:15

I wrote the poem And and

1:15:17

then I realized and

1:15:19

I and I so

1:15:22

I wrote it in November

1:15:24

And and I and I was asked

1:15:26

to write a piece about my book A. Williams for the New York Times for

1:15:28

the last daily

1:15:30

Redaction. And I I

1:15:33

wrote the poem I wrote the piece, and I ended with

1:15:35

him dancing. It was a viral video. I I hadn't known that he was a Redaction. You

1:15:40

know? And it was this viral video

1:15:42

that I came out of him dancing, and which is really fascinating because he's

1:15:45

in, like, a

1:15:47

park in Brooklyn, he got

1:15:49

on this really comfortable car, and and this is, like, so much joy on his

1:15:51

face and he's dancing. And

1:15:55

everybody's, like, clapped in

1:15:57

a a house music in this plan. And and I saw this video describe a video before

1:16:00

he had died, and I

1:16:02

actually had a chance to meet

1:16:04

him. A little

1:16:06

bit before that. And we were talking about democracy and enrollment in our lives. And and he

1:16:10

was just as really

1:16:13

to me, this really humble humble dude. And the person that sort of helped set up the conversation, he

1:16:15

was just you know, I know he was a bit

1:16:17

older than her, but he was like, man, and

1:16:20

he was really,

1:16:23

really respectful. And so my birthday was, like,

1:16:25

late at night, and I just rode this

1:16:27

in a in a rush,

1:16:30

you know. And completely forgot about it.

1:16:32

And we were in the last stages of the

1:16:34

book. And and so then I wrote the piece,

1:16:36

and I completely forgot about the poem. But

1:16:38

when I wrote the piece, I ended with an image that's in the poem. I was

1:16:40

like, Dan, this is a good image, Dan. Dan,

1:16:42

this is a good image show. It didn't

1:16:45

it didn't

1:16:45

know. And then we're working on

1:16:48

a book.

1:16:49

And it was, like, months later when I remembered the poem. And so I was,

1:16:51

like, you know what? I'm a I wanna publish

1:16:54

this poem. So this is it. Before you

1:16:56

read it,

1:16:59

asked him before he'd read it. I don't forgive

1:17:01

me. I don't know who

1:17:03

Mike. Okay. Williams was. So tell me.

1:17:05

Oh, Michael. But I know you've seen

1:17:07

a wire door. Yeah. I

1:17:09

have. So he he played he played

1:17:11

Omar. Oh. Whoa. And how did he

1:17:14

play Omar? And how did he

1:17:16

die?

1:17:19

And it's it's actually interesting that was part

1:17:21

of the argument and that I had with

1:17:23

my editor. So he he he died of

1:17:25

a drug overdose -- Okay. -- and

1:17:27

during the pandemic. And and when I

1:17:29

was writing a piece about it, I mean, I remember the the someone that had back and forth

1:17:32

to my managers.

1:17:34

They was like, well, you gotta say

1:17:36

how he died in your peace. And I was like, I don't

1:17:38

think I have to. And he was like, no, you you do because and I

1:17:41

was like, but I

1:17:43

but I wrote about you

1:17:44

know, bill with us, and I don't even know how he

1:17:46

died. And I was like, and I wrote about

1:17:47

Anazaki son gay.

1:17:47

I was like, let me just check the website, and I went

1:17:49

to the

1:17:50

website, and I looked at a bunch of old glass they

1:17:52

lived pieces.

1:17:54

And I was like, are you freaking only people don't

1:17:56

say that people die? And he was like, and and

1:17:58

I was like, look, I'm not I'm not

1:18:00

gonna talk about that. The last memory that I

1:18:02

read about this this this further is not gonna be that he got of a o

1:18:03

wiz. And and and and the and the last image ended up

1:18:06

being about a guy. And because I I do

1:18:08

think

1:18:11

you know, I mean, when you write something, you get a chance

1:18:13

to to to argue about what that

1:18:16

is. And and it's not

1:18:18

erasing history. It's like making a

1:18:20

case for the thing that you want

1:18:22

to persist. And and it was interesting that, like, so I and, you know, I called the poem on

1:18:24

on my forty four

1:18:27

forty four's birthday. That, you know,

1:18:29

I'm closing my night out, and it was the image of him that that I thought that

1:18:32

I thought the

1:18:35

right about. So yeah, Michael K Williams. He

1:18:37

played he played Omar in the wire. He played, you know, a bunch of

1:18:39

iconic characters. And I just was really AAAA

1:18:43

fast name he would've been who

1:18:46

you know, he wanted to Redaction, and

1:18:49

he was and he was a NASA,

1:18:51

and he was choreographed. But then he got

1:18:53

in a fight and he helped a friend

1:18:55

in a club, and they gotten a tussle when

1:18:57

somebody, like, sliced his face open. Right? And he almost died.

1:18:59

But, you know, it was

1:19:01

a thing

1:19:03

that, in some sense,

1:19:05

changed the whole trajectory of his career, you know. And so

1:19:07

I got this sort of people

1:19:12

became and and made him distinct in a different way that

1:19:14

carry him to his work, but he was never

1:19:17

but what was beautiful about it,

1:19:19

I think, was that you

1:19:22

know, on a screen, this allowed

1:19:25

him to be

1:19:28

gentle in an unexpected

1:19:30

way. You know, even though people people receive a scar

1:19:33

and expect that to be confront

1:19:35

somebody that was meniscent. But

1:19:37

I think it allowed

1:19:39

him to be general in in a in a in a in a

1:19:41

in a in a in a in a in a in a in a in a in

1:19:43

a in a in a in in a a a in

1:19:45

a in a in a in a unexpected way and a big move move away. So anyway, test of the problem is is for

1:19:47

us for Michael K Williams. On my

1:19:49

41st birthday. This brother oh,

1:19:50

I should say this too. Right? I

1:19:51

did this whole

1:19:54

thing with with this nothing

1:19:56

to do with the poem. But I did this whole

1:19:59

thing where I learned how to do the dance that he was doing. I can't dance, you know. I

1:20:03

hired somebody and I I did lessons. And I even brought my son to the

1:20:05

lessons, you know. And and the reason why I

1:20:07

wanted to do it

1:20:11

is because was know was gonna read about it, but it's, like, what

1:20:13

does it mean to be actually alive in the world? What

1:20:15

does it mean to walk in somebody,

1:20:17

shooting them. And and actually, what

1:20:19

does it mean? To

1:20:21

find different opportunities to give yourself over to possibility. And

1:20:24

and I think that's what

1:20:26

books are essentially is a opportunity

1:20:31

that we take each time we pick up a book to give ourselves over

1:20:33

to to something that's deeply,

1:20:36

deeply and meaningfully

1:20:39

unexpected, you know, experience that you can't predict

1:20:41

before having read the book. And I think it's this is

1:20:44

maybe Ellie

1:20:46

Paul may argue with me. I think it's one of the transformative experiences,

1:20:48

you know. I don't care what you

1:20:50

told me about your leases. I'm a go

1:20:52

back and read it, but it's nothing that you

1:20:55

told me that could prepare me what

1:20:57

I'm gonna read in the experience I had when I read it. I'm gonna read it to my kids tonight

1:20:59

just because of this conversation, but I have no idea how it's

1:21:02

gonna play out. I don't know how I'll

1:21:04

be moved or

1:21:07

or they'll be moved. Alright. So how

1:21:09

much 41st birthday for Michael

1:21:11

K Williams? This brother

1:21:14

is dancing in a

1:21:16

city. His forehead, the only

1:21:18

sun some of us will see on this one a day. His body draped

1:21:21

in the colors

1:21:24

of heaven. And each limb,

1:21:26

living, and every burrow at once. How I

1:21:29

wanted to

1:21:32

be free When I

1:21:33

tell my son about his brother and his feet moving

1:21:35

and have a scar from his full

1:21:38

head to his lip, was not

1:21:40

nearly the most interesting thing about him. I

1:21:42

think of his feet and one to

1:21:45

how to be this

1:21:47

kind of honest. And written

1:21:49

in a moment everything that matters. I want to

1:21:52

be somebody's

1:21:56

child again young enough to

1:21:58

stand before a mirror and learn moves that I believe will save

1:22:00

me. Maybe

1:22:04

nothing saves us, except being

1:22:06

a witness to someone else,

1:22:11

moving so free. I guess

1:22:13

today has been Duane Bets.

1:22:16

Duane, thanks for

1:22:18

being part of the

1:22:20

EconTalk. It's

1:22:23

my pleasure always. This

1:22:30

is econ talk, part of the

1:22:33

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1:22:35

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1:22:37

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1:22:39

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1:22:44

Russ EconTalk.

1:22:47

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1:22:51

Talk to you

1:22:55

on Monday.