0:02

Welcome to Conversations for

0:05

the curious. Part of the Library of Economics

0:07

and Liberty I'm your host, Russ Roberts

0:09

of Shalem College in Jerusalem and

0:11

Stanford University's Hoover Institution. Go

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with every episode we've done going back to two

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thousand and six. Our email address

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is mail at econ talk dot org.

0:30

We'd love to hear from you. Today

0:37

is January worth twenty twenty three, and

0:40

my guest is Tiffany Jenkins. Our

0:43

topic for today is her most recent book,

0:45

Keeping their marbles. How the

0:47

treasures of the past ended up at museums

0:50

and why they should stay there.

0:52

Tiffany, welcome to EconTalk. Hello.

0:56

Let's start by talking about why museums

0:58

are important in

1:00

the abstract what

1:02

happens to us as as visitors

1:05

to a museum that that matters.

1:07

You know, it's they're interesting. I look around.

1:09

There's artifacts and Some of

1:11

them are

1:12

impressive. Is there anything more

1:14

than that? Look,

1:16

I find it's an encounter with the past.

1:20

And with the people of the past. So

1:22

I really during COVID that

1:24

if you couldn't go to these places that you would go

1:26

to regularly and you took the granted, You

1:28

could see them online. You could see the artifacts

1:30

online. You could go to the Louvre. You could go to

1:33

the Met. You could go to anywhere. But

1:35

couldn't go yourself through that door.

1:37

And it's something about going through that door.

1:40

And you enter this world, and it might be

1:43

ancient Egypt, it might be Assyria,

1:45

it might be ancient Athens. And

1:48

it's like you're transported. I find them

1:50

almost like a time machine. Depending

1:52

on your state of mind than

1:55

the time of day and what's going on with your life,

1:57

it might be that you just start in

1:59

to see particular painting or object

2:02

But it also might be that you want to be just

2:04

taken somewhere actually by the institution

2:06

because, you know, they've curated these things usually

2:09

intelligently to tell a story

2:12

I just find it awe inspiring. I

2:14

do that these people,

2:17

thousands of years ago, were creating

2:19

these things. So they might not have been initially

2:21

to impress us and certainly weren't. They were often

2:24

for a particular purpose to worship a

2:26

God or to make their an

2:28

ordinary breakfast bowl, that sort of thing.

2:30

And somehow it's like they've left it for

2:33

you. So you have a, like, a door into

2:35

their life. I find them

2:37

if I'm sad or happy, they

2:40

just sort of take me out of myself

2:42

and show me another world and another

2:45

time in place. And I think that I

2:47

mean, I just think that's worth everything

2:49

really. Understanding other Plunder,

2:53

understanding that we aren't the only ones

2:55

on the earth. That there's this sort

2:57

of chain of generations

2:59

behind us that influence

3:02

us, that connect us, connect

3:04

to us. And I do find them inspiring.

3:06

So they make me

3:08

think of human

3:10

achievement. Even it might be

3:13

even if you go into, you know, museum of

3:15

war. You

3:17

see the complicated, sometimes,

3:19

destructive nature of human beings. But

3:21

you also see the creative and

3:24

human side. So I really like them.

3:27

A lot of your book is about the

3:30

increasingly loud demand that

3:33

many of the objects in these in these museums

3:35

that came from elsewhere should return

3:38

to where they once were. Either

3:40

geographically within some

3:43

national boundary that may or may not have existed

3:45

in the past. But but certainly closer

3:47

to where they started. When

3:53

I went to London for the first time, I

3:56

asked a British friend of mine

3:58

what I should do when I was there. And

4:00

he said, well, you know, the British Museum of Course

4:02

and then he listed a bunch of other things.

4:05

And I I've probably remarked on this on

4:07

the program in the past. That phrase,

4:09

the British Museum comma, of

4:11

course, is really not doesn't

4:13

really capture what an extraordinary collection

4:18

of of human experience is

4:20

under its roof. I

4:23

would I have the suspicion

4:27

that if objects

4:29

that currently there were repatriated to

4:31

where they once came from, there

4:33

wouldn't be much there. Much

4:36

of it is the is a comment

4:39

on the British past, both

4:41

military and colonial

4:43

and exploratory.

4:47

And it it these

4:49

demands that items be returned certainly

4:53

make you think about what a museum would be

4:55

in the absence of some of of

4:57

the imported

4:58

items. But in the for the British

5:00

Museum in particular, the

5:02

most prominent example would be what

5:04

what is called or what are called

5:06

the Elgin marbles. Tell

5:08

us what

5:10

they are, where

5:12

they started, and how they came to

5:14

be residing in Bloomsbury under

5:16

the roof of the British Museum.

5:18

Okay. Well, the

5:21

British museum is

5:23

an interesting museum to start

5:26

with because it doesn't have very

5:28

many objects

5:30

from Britain. Lots of other museums,

5:32

particularly France

5:34

and Europe, were housed,

5:37

were built to house the collections of the

5:39

nation. The British Museum

5:41

was constructed a little bit earlier in seventeen

5:44

fifty six. Out of

5:46

the collection of a man called Hanslone. And

5:48

initially, you had objects

5:50

from the voyages of exploration. So there's

5:52

no antiquity in there whatsoever.

5:54

But now they are, if you'd like, all

5:57

about antiquity, not all about antiquity, but

6:00

the Elgin Marbles Many

6:02

people want to call them the parthenon sculptures

6:05

now. Even the term Elgin gets

6:07

you kind of into trouble. But there

6:11

we have it. We'll I'll properly call them

6:13

both. In fact, no, I'll call them the Marbles just

6:15

to distinguish them. So these are

6:18

sculptures that were taken from the Parsonen

6:21

in Athens. They're about two

6:23

thousand years old. So they

6:25

were made at the height of Athen's

6:29

most democratic but also imperial

6:32

moment. And they were

6:34

built under Pericles, the general and

6:36

politician. Under

6:38

his command to

6:42

honor the goddess

6:44

Athena So it was a temple initially,

6:46

this this Parcelon. And it's not

6:48

the temple is not like how how we would think

6:50

of a temple. It was there really to house

6:52

the god or the goddess. In this case,

6:54

Athena. And

6:57

properly loot from war,

6:59

and it was constructed partly

7:02

to partly

7:05

as a kind of and

7:08

partly as a trophy against the ...persons

7:10

who they had just defeated. It was kind

7:12

of like, we are we're the best. We the

7:15

us Atheneans are the best. And

7:17

it is an astonishing work. I was in Athens

7:20

this summer. And

7:23

the image we all have now of Athens

7:25

is obviously of the bassinin that's still

7:27

left on of

7:30

the acropolis that's still left on the of the

7:32

apartment, it's still left on the acropolis. Half

7:34

of those sculptures roughly are

7:37

in the acropolis museum, which is a

7:39

reasonably new museum, ten ten

7:41

years old or so, a bit older.

7:44

And half are in the British Museum

7:46

in Bloomsbury. So these sculptures from

7:49

ancient Athens are really at

7:51

the center of the British Museum.

7:54

The ones in the BM I mean, there are

7:56

a lot of them. There's a whole room.

7:59

And there's these incredible sculptures

8:02

of horses, and the

8:04

big part of it is this relief. And

8:06

in ancient accounts, actually, people don't really talk

8:08

about the relief. That's not the big deal,

8:10

but that's what we've got, and it is

8:12

a pig here. You see

8:14

these is a procession and

8:17

a few battle scenes. And

8:19

these figures are They're

8:22

sort of off white as ancient

8:25

antiquity is. It's not like the Romans

8:27

sculptures, which are kinda really white.

8:29

This is off white. It's

8:33

I sometimes think of it a bit like Leonardo in

8:35

as in as much as it's It's

8:38

realistic, but it's also imagined. So

8:41

you can see the on

8:43

the horse, for example, which is one of the

8:45

most famous sculptures, you

8:47

can see this vein

8:50

down its nose and

8:52

you can Oh, you know when you want to

8:54

touch a horse's face or

8:56

long nose. It's like that. And it's

8:58

sort of pulsating. There's

9:02

these battle scenes of

9:06

And you can see this warrior is about to

9:08

die. I find

9:10

it incredible. There was an exhibition there a

9:12

few years ago the British Museum that

9:15

compared the parliament to the sculptors

9:17

of Augustroden. The French

9:19

sculptor, he was tremendous really,

9:21

really impressed and excited by them.

9:24

And Putting them side

9:26

by side, you could

9:28

see both how he was influenced by them, but

9:30

also how he departed from

9:32

them. And

9:34

how actually those those

9:36

pieces, since they were

9:38

taken to the British Museum in the at the

9:40

turn of the nineteenth century, have

9:43

inspired artists for generations,

9:46

including to this day. Obviously, people

9:48

around there to this day. So you

9:50

asked the most important question

9:52

which is, how did they get there? So

9:54

they there were very few

9:58

antiquities in the British Museum. And there

10:00

were very there was very little knowledge

10:02

of Greek antiquity at that

10:04

time in the sort of turn

10:06

of the eighteenth into the early

10:08

nineteenth nineteen hundreds.

10:13

Atadathans itself was under

10:15

an occupier. The Ottomans and had

10:17

been for three

10:20

and forty years or so, three hundred

10:22

years. And they

10:24

were just travelers that were beginning to get

10:26

into the area and look at it. At

10:28

the time, it was a shantytown.

10:30

In Athens, it was on the top, but

10:32

it was are buildings everywhere. It doesn't

10:35

look like it does today because a lot of

10:37

surrounding buildings were taken down

10:39

to subsequently glorify

10:42

that particular period in history. So all the modern

10:44

stuff had gone has

10:46

since gone. The Turks were

10:48

using it as a garrison And

10:51

look You're talking about the acropolis now?

10:53

Yes. We just acropolis. You've had it

10:56

into Athens, and I was also just there recently

10:58

for the first time. It's rather

11:00

extraordinary. It is essentially a

11:02

plateau. It it is almost like it looks

11:04

like it's created to

11:06

be a pedestal. For the

11:08

for the parthenon. It it towers

11:10

above towers is too strong, but

11:12

it's visible from everywhere as

11:14

this stand alone Mesa

11:16

almost this flat topped area, and

11:18

the part that I'm on is large enough to be visible

11:21

from almost everywhere that you can

11:23

see it. And you're saying that

11:25

in the before, in the

11:27

eighteen hundreds, the Turks used it as that

11:29

whole flat topped area as

11:32

a garrison and had other buildings

11:34

as well as the remnants of the

11:36

bathroom.

11:37

Yes. And in fact, inside it, there was a

11:39

mosque which they'd created

11:41

for themselves. Which has also since been

11:43

gone. So but there are travelers. People are people

11:45

were beginning to get really interested in

11:47

this particular period in history.

11:50

And really wanted to see the real Greek stuff. They

11:52

had the Roman Roman stuff, but they didn't

11:54

have the Greek stuff. Elgin,

11:57

Lord, Elgin is the British

11:59

ambassador to

12:01

confirm to Noble. And he

12:04

becomes intrigued by these some

12:06

paintings and drawings that he's seen of

12:08

these sculptures. And he

12:10

sends a number of people to go fetch

12:12

them. He comes to a deal

12:14

with the Ottomans. This is one the controversial

12:16

things later. But what

12:18

we know is that they

12:20

came to some kind of agreement of which

12:22

there is a firm and which is a terms of

12:24

an agreement There is

12:26

an Italian translation of it,

12:30

which was the lingua Franco of the

12:31

time. That's what diplomats and

12:34

people spoke. So we have this

12:36

Italian translation of the Fuhrman

12:38

which says he can take parts

12:40

of the sculptures which are on the

12:42

ground. What we know

12:44

is he took some off the building.

12:48

So did he

12:50

exceed the limits? Probably, But

12:53

it's not like modern day

12:55

where you have like contracts that are

12:57

that thick, where there's everything

12:59

saying, you know, you can take this glaive grass

13:01

but not that blade of grass. It's

13:03

a different it's a different set up.

13:05

Equally, many of the locals were

13:07

taking parts of the building. To

13:10

grind up and to use for

13:12

their own purposes. So it wasn't

13:14

this sort of archaeological or

13:16

verified site that it is today.

13:19

There is writing

13:21

between him and his agents about

13:23

how I think there's one phrase that

13:24

said, we were forced to be a little barberous.

13:28

And

13:28

there's a description of the because these are

13:30

big sculptures. You know, they're pretty

13:33

heavy, large, marble

13:35

stone. And there's

13:38

descriptions of them sort of crushing

13:40

crushing to the ground and the

13:42

earth shaking. They

13:46

then are shipped back to

13:48

Britain. I think at the time

13:50

he wanted some for his house,

13:53

he goes bankrupt.

13:55

He has syphilis. He has a terrible

13:57

time. He can't

13:59

afford to keep them. And he lands

14:02

on the scheme of selling them to the British

14:04

government. And they have

14:06

an inquiry into it. Should they

14:09

do it? And that inquiry, if you

14:11

read through today, is quite interesting. There's

14:13

two things that are at

14:16

the center of whether they should buy it or

14:18

not. One is, were

14:20

they looted in a way that the

14:22

French would loot? And

14:25

they decide, no, they weren't exactly.

14:29

So that's fine. But

14:31

the other that I find really fascinating

14:33

is that when they arrive,

14:35

people have this idea in their heads of

14:37

what they should look like. They

14:40

should be, a, they should have all

14:42

their limbs. They should be kind of

14:44

smooth. They should be right. And

14:46

they're not. They're off white. And they look a

14:48

little bit more kind of relaxed than the

14:51

Roman stuff that they are familiar

14:53

with. So there's a big debate over whether they're

14:55

any good or not. Massive

14:58

massive debate. And

15:00

it's possibly through that debate that

15:03

they'd be begin to be established as these

15:05

great works of art. And they're

15:07

acquired in the end by the British Museum, I

15:09

think, for seventy four thousand and

15:14

they are bored partly because they

15:16

hope that they will reinvigorate

15:18

and revitalize the arts in

15:20

England. And there's some

15:22

there's some desire that maybe they're also,

15:24

by their sheer presence, the

15:28

kind of democratic spirit of Athens, will

15:30

seep into British

15:32

culture. There

15:35

was some talk of maybe putting them I

15:37

mean, at first, they were treated more like

15:39

art objects.

15:41

Sort of aesthetic quality, you know,

15:43

the aesthetic quality, unless

15:46

as they're kind of

15:48

hoping that they would kind of inspire artists. And

15:50

I think it suddenly they suddenly

15:52

became objects of poetry and inspirations, but

15:54

they never quite had that impact

15:56

upon British art that it

15:58

was hoped, but they did

16:00

become the centerpiece of this museum

16:02

at in Bloomsbury. And they

16:04

are still today. I mean, if you go

16:08

In fact, if you go to the DuVim galleries

16:10

where they're housed, do you always hear

16:12

this kind of massive discussion going on

16:14

at the and the harm

16:16

isn't about what people had for dinner or whether

16:18

going afterwards. It's about whether or not they should

16:20

be there in the first place, which is

16:22

quite interesting. And they're

16:24

arrayed in a large rectangle

16:27

somewhat akin to how they

16:29

may have been mounted

16:31

on the as a a freeze

16:34

or a the relief part of it, at

16:36

least, around the top of the

16:38

parthenom, which is, like, right correct where they

16:40

they started. Yeah.

16:42

It's a rough approximation, although

16:44

it's much lower. Yeah. So if you ever go to

16:46

the bottom, it's absolutely huge.

16:48

I mean, it's so tall. It's

16:50

an amazing picture which you can find on the Internet

16:52

of Isadora Dora. Isadora

16:55

Dora. Standing

16:57

in front of it, and it just towers

17:00

above her. So the British Museum are much

17:02

lower, which means you can see them. I

17:04

mean, that's in a way, so

17:06

there's this one of the debates is, you know, should

17:08

they be as they

17:10

were? Or

17:13

should you around with it. And the

17:15

British Museum brings them low so you can actually see them

17:17

and you can go you can go up close to them

17:19

and you can be right sort of

17:21

there. Yeah. front of the horse,

17:23

which I really like. Oh, the thing

17:25

that that is that

17:28

I learned from Brooke that I that I did I

17:30

learned many things here, but by the way, I did not know. We'll

17:32

we'll talk some more about some of them in a minute. But one

17:34

of the most interesting things I learned was

17:37

that It's

17:40

very hard to remember that

17:42

people in the past were almost as

17:44

complicated, if not more so than people

17:46

alive today. And we have

17:48

a certain set of

17:50

templates and stereotypes about people in the

17:51

past. One of my favorites

17:54

is everyone was religious except

17:56

for David Hume. And this is

17:59

not true. There were many people

18:01

who had doubts about the

18:03

existence of God or the the value

18:05

of religious life just

18:07

like today. Different proportions, perhaps.

18:09

But in this case,

18:12

I assumed incorrectly not

18:15

in a conscious way. But I would have

18:17

if you'd ask me, well, most people

18:20

in England when those marbles

18:22

Marbles. We're proud of them and

18:25

glad that they came and and

18:27

didn't really care about how they were

18:29

acquired because we're

18:31

England. We we we we rule

18:33

the the Senate protests on the British

18:35

Empire, and and we're proud of that.

18:37

And and yet your book

18:39

reveals that certainly with with

18:41

the marbles and

18:44

with the the

18:46

looting of the Palace and

18:48

P King, during the aftermath

18:50

of the opium wars in the

18:52

earlier part of the nineteenth century,

18:55

that many people

18:57

in England were deeply uncomfortable

18:59

with this process. They didn't just

19:01

say, well, we're the most powerful nation on earth.

19:03

We're entitled to anything we happen to pick

19:06

up and grabbed. They were

19:08

there was shame. There were people

19:10

who said this is immoral, unethical.

19:14

They So even

19:16

then, people were

19:19

uneasy with that acquisition, even if

19:21

it was different than loot or

19:23

plunder Plunder case of the marbles. It

19:25

was purchased, maybe

19:27

exceeded in the EconTalk. Yes.

19:29

But as you say, there were gray areas in in in many

19:31

contracts like that. It wasn't like there

19:33

was an archaeological commission there

19:36

overseeing the removal It

19:38

was a chaotic time

19:40

and and that was that. But

19:42

even then, people were somewhat

19:44

not somewhat. Many people

19:46

were very uncomfortable. They were.

19:49

And I

19:49

think I think there are other ideas

19:52

that influence that.

19:54

Like I mentioned about the French. The French were

19:56

much more conscious about

19:59

and deliberate about their looting.

20:01

Wasn't to say that the Brits didn't do it, but it's much

20:03

more accidental and has

20:05

had informal and it often came as a

20:07

consequence of Empire rather than it being

20:09

a kind of instrument of

20:11

Empire. There was also quite

20:13

a romantic strain So

20:16

there's a very strong sense that

20:21

artifacts belonged in the

20:23

soil. Of where they came from.

20:26

That, you know, cultures are

20:28

different and they have different practices

20:30

and different ways of thinking and

20:32

different ways of worshiping, and they should

20:35

remain in the soil

20:37

of where they came from. So the

20:39

beginning that kind of in psychopedical or cosmopolitan

20:42

idea of comparing cultures was

20:44

something that not everybody bought

20:46

into. And in fact, if you see some of

20:48

the claims of the demands for

20:50

repatriation were

20:52

along those lines. They should go back to

20:54

where they belonged. Yeah. I

20:56

was shocked to discover that

21:00

Napoleon was not just a

21:02

that that there

21:04

wasn't just looting it was

21:06

systematic looting. It it was they were they were eager to

21:09

acquire the French army through and

21:11

Napoleon were eager to acquire although

21:14

I have to confess, Tiffany, this is an account

21:16

from someone who's from the United Kingdom.

21:18

So perhaps rise

21:20

against the Have to keep that in mind. I'll I'll let you

21:22

defend yourself in a second. But Napoleon in

21:25

your in your story had plans.

21:27

He'd say, let's go that thing in in

21:29

Belgium. And and when we get to Italy, we're gonna take those things.

21:31

And then when he loses

21:33

the battle of Waterloo, the

21:37

British systematically tried to get it

21:39

returned. That is

21:41

extraordinary. So they

21:43

repatriated repatriated through her

21:45

rather than I'm like, well, you have

21:47

to put a foot down. There was that a stone. The

21:51

the the British Army did defeat French and took the Rosetta

21:53

Stone that the French soldiers had found. But

21:55

in general, the

21:57

British army forced the

22:00

repatriation of native works of art

22:02

to their or places of origin

22:05

after conquering

22:06

France. In eighteen fifteen in the Battle

22:08

of Waterloo. Correct? Correct. And

22:11

it in a way, it's the mirror image of

22:13

taking it. For sort

22:15

of national game. So there was a

22:17

city in France that went something

22:19

like, Rome is no longer in

22:21

Rome. It's all in Paris.

22:23

And the idea was that you take the

22:26

greatest works of civilization to

22:29

the greatest city of civilization, Paris.

22:33

And Napoleon was I think in his head

22:35

was following in the footsteps of

22:37

the Romans who

22:39

looted, like, they were the first great

22:41

looters. And they were brewing their stuff

22:43

back in the center of

22:45

Rome, in these big imperial triumphs,

22:47

you know, with crates of everything

22:49

that they were they had taken to show that

22:51

they had

22:52

achieved concrete you know, they kind of

22:54

conquered their enemies. And

22:56

and the optics were part of that.

22:59

And I think that's what very much inspired

23:01

Napoleon. And he did bring these things

23:04

back and have, you know,

23:06

triumph his kind of equivalent to

23:08

the triumph in Paris.

23:10

So the Brits, when

23:12

they win at Waterloo, forcing

23:14

him to

23:14

return, is their kind

23:16

of same sort of thing. They're using

23:19

loot and objects as a display of

23:21

mind. Yeah. It's it's

23:23

it's really quite fantastic.

23:25

When I visited Rome for the

23:27

first time, which again was recently

23:30

about five years ago, it's

23:32

hard not to notice that there's a

23:34

number of obelisks large

23:37

towers of with Egyptian

23:40

hieroglyphics and being

23:42

an

23:42

idiot, my first thought was I wonder why they would

23:45

build Egyptian Of course, they didn't

23:47

build them. They stole them. They have

23:49

the most obelisks. They they

23:51

have thirteen evidently. I looked it up before

23:53

our conversation. I think they have the most of anywhere

23:55

in the world. They have more than ever in

23:57

Egypt. And that's because

23:59

they were powerful and they took

24:01

them and they still have them, and

24:03

they're rather extraordinary. And it's

24:06

particularly starting to see them in in

24:08

Rome. Yeah. But

24:10

the French took many things from Rome, and the

24:13

British way they'd give many of them back. They

24:15

couldn't get all of them, as you point out, about maybe

24:17

about half. Some of them are

24:19

important ones got returns, probably said not all of

24:21

them and so on. I think

24:22

it also I think the interesting thing about

24:24

those oblaces, I think they also made a

24:27

particularly large ship for them because these

24:29

are huge objects. I

24:31

mean, if you imagine how they could have done

24:33

it, it's quite astonishing. But

24:35

I think there are there were also

24:38

and maybe I'm being a bit generous to the Brits.

24:40

I think there was the beginning

24:42

of an idea of what was right and what wasn't

24:45

wrong, but it wasn't to say it was

24:47

systematic. And I think

24:49

probably there was possibly a sense of, you know,

24:51

this is not what we

24:53

Europeans do, which doesn't mean to say that they

24:55

then didn't do it elsewhere. The

24:59

other the other interesting controversy at the

25:01

museum that I found so

25:03

extraordinary is that if you go

25:05

to the British Museum, they have quite a number of

25:07

these large stone items,

25:09

objects from Nineveh, from Assyria,

25:13

of they're doermis of

25:15

a of a creature that is

25:18

half bull, half human, and

25:20

the human part is a head the head is is

25:22

this large bearded head and

25:24

then there's wings just to make it

25:26

interesting. They're extraordinary and

25:28

they have a ton of them And one

25:30

I've learned two best things for your book. One is,

25:32

lots of other people happen too. They don't have

25:34

all of them. There's someone in see there's

25:36

some in Seattle and there's some in New

25:39

York and my gosh, when

25:41

Nineveh was plundered in,

25:44

again, in semi

25:46

modern times, there were no

25:48

Assyrians around to speak for themselves,

25:50

these things went everywhere and they're

25:52

so striking. And And

25:55

yet, were

25:55

they allowed to I

25:56

should just say they weren't plundered them. They were

25:59

excavation. Correct. No. Yes. Actually,

26:01

they were

26:02

but that's also an amazing thing, I think, is that they were

26:05

underground.

26:05

These things in museums were not,

26:07

you know, just taken from the shelves in other

26:09

countries. They were underground they were at

26:11

escalated by Henry and in this case, Henry

26:14

Leyard. And so they they were there with

26:16

their shovels and their kind

26:18

of spades and finding them. And he just didn't go,

26:20

because he's love those objects

26:22

because they they are huge,

26:24

and I think they are dawned the they

26:26

were at the entrance of the palace.

26:28

There are all sorts of other things that they found them, which,

26:30

you know, it things that we didn't know about

26:32

those civilizations. But the thing I

26:35

love about those is that when came

26:37

time to decide whether the British Museum

26:39

should acquire them, again, through

26:41

easing the money of the British

26:44

government, not a private collector, There

26:46

was an enormous debate about whether they were, quote, any

26:48

good, and whether they were art, and and

26:50

they were inevitably compared to the Elgin

26:52

Marbles, which were, quote,

26:54

the best. And these were just like, I'm not

26:57

even sure this is art. Let's talk about

26:59

that. It's incredible.

27:00

No. I think that's really interesting because effectively,

27:03

The museum is an opera and

27:06

it makes things into hierarchies.

27:08

It is it creates knowledge, but

27:10

it does also then impose it.

27:13

And at the time, the idea that, you know,

27:15

the Assyrians could possibly be as good

27:17

as the Atheneans was

27:19

an athena. It's not a chance, you know,

27:21

in in a That's a very different mindset to not

27:24

today to today where, you know, we haven't

27:26

the sense that all cultures are equal

27:28

and they're at

27:30

the ancient the

27:32

Atheneans with one among many of

27:34

different civilizations. And I

27:37

think it also speaks

27:39

to just how important the

27:41

British Museum found the

27:43

Algar Marbles. You know, they worshiped

27:45

them. The whole of the museum

27:47

was kind of orientated around

27:49

them. That's slightly different now. But

27:51

The

27:51

great thing about them being in the British

27:54

Museum, as you

27:54

say, is

27:55

that you can then go to I mean,

27:57

if you stand in

28:00

one place, I think to the right, you've got

28:02

Assyria and to the left, you've got Egypt. And

28:04

in front of you, you have ancient

28:06

Athens. So in front of you, you have

28:08

the To the right, you have those funny

28:10

winged beasts, which are

28:12

really clever because they've got, let's

28:14

say, five legs rather than four.

28:16

And it's not because they had five legs, these

28:19

imaginary

28:19

creatures. It's because they're walking.

28:21

I

28:21

think, oh, that's really

28:24

clever. But you can see, I

28:26

think, you can look over there and you can see

28:28

these winged beasts, and you can look in front of

28:30

Dean, you can see, particularly with ancient Athens,

28:32

a lot of not just the parthenian

28:34

sculptures, but you've got a lot of, you

28:37

know, they were they're revered the

28:39

naked body.

28:40

You see the kind of human figure at

28:42

the center of Athens.

28:45

And then to the left, you see these kind

28:47

of these gods, ramises, very

28:51

different way of thinking about the world

28:54

and just having those three

28:56

civilizations next to each

28:57

other. You can see

29:00

both

29:01

you can understand each of them on

29:03

their own terms better, I think,

29:06

through comparison. And I think that's

29:08

what sort of these museums do is through comparison. You

29:10

understand the specificity. And

29:12

for

29:12

me, right also right there is the

29:15

Rosetta Stone, which for

29:18

for those if you think

29:20

for some people who wears out a sound just

29:22

a language app on their phone, but

29:24

but it actually is physical

29:27

item that had three

29:29

different languages written on it,

29:31

which was the only way at least at

29:34

the time that we learned how to translate

29:36

some of those languages of the

29:38

hieroglyphics in particular.

29:41

And to think of for

29:43

me, it stands there like a like

29:45

a sentinel, like a little bit like a very

29:47

much like a monument to

29:50

the mystery of the past.

29:52

Which of those winged creatures? Like, why did they drop? Why did

29:54

they make them that way? And what

29:56

did they have to say about them? And

29:58

to the extent because we found

30:00

the Rosetta Stone, we

30:03

were able to decipher ancient

30:06

writing and get a glimpse of what they

30:08

were about. And of course, there are

30:10

a thousand other mysteries. We

30:12

can't fathom because we don't have

30:14

enough Rosetta Stone's in

30:16

every cultural conscious language, but

30:18

other religious practices

30:20

and commercial norms.

30:22

And they're lost to

30:24

us. And the fact remains is so

30:27

gloriously beautiful to me.

30:29

And so for me, it is a it

30:31

is a there's

30:33

something awe inspiring about

30:35

that particular spot. And some

30:38

of that awe will go

30:40

away if those marbles head

30:42

back to Athens. So let's turn to that question.

30:45

A lot of people, both British and

30:47

certainly Greek, think

30:49

that even though they

30:51

were give it away by Ottomans

30:53

or sold or whatever by Ottomans.

30:56

They belong in Greece, and

31:00

that's the British Museum should give them up.

31:03

So you are more

31:05

ambivalent. It's it's

31:07

my take. Talk about why

31:09

make the talk about why they should be returned and

31:11

then maybe why they shouldn't?

31:13

Well, I I was in Athens this

31:16

summer. And I went to the acropolis

31:18

museum, which is right next to the

31:21

acropolis. And you can it's a I think it's

31:23

a glorious building. It's modern.

31:25

It's light. There's a lot

31:27

of glass. It's elegant. And

31:29

you can, you know, from the lovely

31:32

cafe, but also from the

31:34

museum itself. You can look at and you can see the

31:37

acropolis on the hill. And

31:39

in

31:39

fact, if you go up to the acropolis, it's quite

31:41

difficult to understand what this place was.

31:44

But if you

31:44

go into the acropolis museum, it

31:47

tells you everything. And it

31:50

begins with pre classical sculpture

31:53

from the area. And

31:56

it tells you the story of

31:58

of the bassinin, sort of how it

32:01

was created after

32:03

the Persian walls as

32:05

this monument to them. It was a you

32:07

know, it money went to God of Athena. But

32:09

it shows you through sculpture

32:14

how magnificent these

32:17

pieces are. How different they are. They become It's like you

32:19

just walk through time and you

32:21

see different ideas about human form

32:23

and scope to change. Just

32:25

a just a sense of

32:28

how a person would

32:30

stand. You know, a lot of the earlier

32:32

sculptures are just really static. There's

32:34

no no life to them. So

32:37

you really understand the specificity

32:39

of the time the place in which

32:41

they were created. So There's

32:43

no doubt in my mind that if the sculptors that

32:45

were in the British Museum went to the

32:47

ecropolis

32:47

museum, they would probably enhance

32:50

it slightly.

32:51

And you go there and you think, God, this is,

32:53

you know, there's the even though you know

32:56

it's two thousand

32:58

years on that they

33:00

don't look like they looked like at the time. You know, they were

33:02

colorful. They had lots of

33:04

bling on them. We don't

33:06

have a lot of them, you

33:08

know, that's forties, fifty percent has

33:10

gone lost to the world. So

33:13

they they don't look like they

33:15

did

33:15

look, but you still think, oh, this is real.

33:17

This is the authentic place. So

33:19

I was almost persuaded

33:22

this this this

33:24

summer. But I think

33:26

there were There are numerous

33:28

reasons why I think the situation

33:30

as it stands with half in each

33:32

place is pretty good. It's probably

33:34

the best situation because I think objects do different things in

33:36

different places. And

33:38

in the British Museum,

33:40

for a start, they have been there for two hundred

33:43

years. And so they're very much

33:45

part of the identity of the

33:46

museum. They're part of

33:49

in a way, they've got a kind of

33:52

British identity. I've

33:54

also got a world identity because

33:56

it's from the retreat

33:58

the retrieval of those sculptures

34:00

at that time. And the way they were

34:03

communicated to the world, they suddenly kind

34:05

of went the equivalent of

34:07

viral, I suppose. You

34:09

know, they just at the time when people

34:11

were beginning to think about the glory

34:14

of

34:15

ancient Athens, including

34:17

A few years later, the Greek

34:19

state, which was formed.

34:21

And they too started to

34:24

that's when they took down a lot

34:26

of the buildings around it and

34:28

almost invented the sense

34:30

of being ancient Athenexion

34:33

and the continuity with the

34:36

new the new Greek

34:38

state. But in the British

34:40

Museum, I think you understand them in relationship

34:42

to other cultures. You

34:44

understand them in relationship

34:46

as we were saying to the Assyrians, to the

34:48

Egyptians, to the Romans, you

34:51

know, the enemy, the

34:52

Persians, but also now African

34:56

art, art from

34:57

Korea. And I think that just really

35:00

helps you understand what they

35:02

were then, what they

35:04

were, what they meant. It's a different

35:06

way of seeing what they

35:08

were then. When they were created originally, but also what they have

35:10

subsequently meant. And so I

35:12

think does it enhance our

35:14

understanding there

35:16

without question? And so that's

35:18

why I'm firmly on the side of retaining

35:20

them. And my guess

35:22

is they will not

35:24

be retained. Your book was written in

35:26

twenty sixteen. I just

35:28

before we recorded this, I found

35:30

an article from the BBC's website

35:32

about how negotiations for

35:34

returning them or almost finished. Of course, that last ten percent may

35:36

never happen. But I I

35:38

suspect it will. And

35:41

my suspicion is and you

35:44

can agree or disagree, but my suspicion is

35:46

is that they will

35:48

be replaced at the British Museum by

35:51

casts of the of the

35:53

originals. And I want you to reflect on that for

35:56

a moment. I

36:00

have I'm a big fan of

36:02

Rodan. You mentioned Rodan

36:04

earlier. Having spent

36:06

many, many summers

36:09

at Stanford, they have an extraordinary

36:11

rhodend collection there.

36:14

And on

36:16

the campus, And the burgers at Kelly are one of my five favorite

36:18

works of art, I would say, and I could

36:20

spend a lot of time just looking

36:22

at them. But

36:24

of course, they're casts. They are not quote the original. They're

36:27

a little bit different in that

36:29

it's not a a freeze or a

36:31

relief. It's a a full blown

36:34

sculpture, but I don't look at

36:36

that and say, oh, this is just a

36:38

cast or

36:40

of the Gates of Hell, which is another extraordinary work that Stanford has

36:43

on its campus by Red Dead. And I

36:45

don't say, oh, it's just I

36:47

love them. I think they're beautiful. I could look at them for a long, long

36:50

time. And when

36:56

we'd have to ask, what is really

36:58

lost if the marbles

37:00

are replaced by casts

37:02

at the British Museum and

37:04

the Athenean, the acropolis museum gets the

37:07

quote originals. Now I'm sure there are

37:09

people who would say, Well,

37:12

they're not the same and and AAA

37:14

real artist. An artist historian would

37:16

would would would see differences and

37:19

it would bother them. But

37:21

I think something else. I really

37:23

think there's something about the original just like

37:25

seeing them online is nice.

37:28

It's interesting. There's value

37:30

to it. I'm glad that

37:32

Google and others have digitized many of

37:34

the world's great art

37:36

museums, but

37:38

I've seen a lot of photographs of

37:42

Michelangelo's David.

37:44

And debt doesn't work.

37:46

You know, there's a

37:48

cast of it. There there

37:51

there are two Davids, I think, in

37:53

Florence. The real one and the cast,

37:56

I suspect that the cast

37:59

would amaze me as well,

38:01

but I don't like it as much. And

38:03

it's just kinda interesting that the real

38:05

thing is better somehow. I

38:06

think I think it's better for two

38:10

reasons. One is that although the cars are really good obviously

38:13

technology is just

38:16

jumping far

38:18

ahead, I don't think it is as good, and

38:20

it might be that I couldn't tell the difference in

38:22

it, but I still I like to

38:24

think I

38:25

could. Yeah. I think

38:28

I probably could. And

38:30

I do think

38:31

we want to see the authentic

38:33

thing. And I don't

38:34

think it would it would just I

38:36

just don't think I think people and it might

38:39

be that we were object fetishists and all the rest

38:41

of it, but fine. I'm

38:43

happy with that. I wanna see the real thing. I think

38:45

casts aren't going to be the

38:47

answer. I also think you

38:49

could probably do something more

38:51

creative with casts. I mean, the

38:53

cast there's really great cast in the

38:56

DNA, but I think it's Victoria and

38:58

Albert. Museum.

39:00

Yeah. I think one one thing you could do is try

39:02

I mean, if if money was no up to

39:04

it, you could try and do what we think

39:06

it would have actually looked like. I

39:10

mean, and just do a full one and see. I mean, that would be that would be

39:13

that wouldn't be trying to solve

39:15

the repatriation argument.

39:18

It would be trying to imagine what it was like. And therefore, it would be a

39:20

new thing in and of itself. I think that would

39:23

be really exciting. I'm not

39:26

sure they will go back.

39:28

I think a lot of that stuff in the press at

39:30

the moment is slightly

39:35

mischievous. From those who would like to

39:38

repatriate. But I think what it's

39:40

doing is taking advantage of a moment

39:42

in the debate

39:44

over museums. Which is that that's what this kind of discussion

39:46

about repatriation moves and

39:48

up and down in relation to other political

39:52

questions. And

39:54

often, if you can't mount the case

39:57

for the museum and I

39:59

tie this repatriation discussion to

40:01

that, can you mount case of

40:03

a museum. Can you mount a case with bringing lots of things

40:05

that were not originally from here, here, putting them together

40:07

and showing them to people,

40:09

and actually saying, help

40:11

with some authority, what

40:14

they

40:14

were, and why you should look at them.

40:16

Can you do

40:17

that? And at the moment, And

40:19

for many years, I think museums have actually found that

40:21

quite difficult. They've been

40:24

much more defensive, so

40:26

they they sometimes apologize

40:28

really for what they're doing

40:30

or they try to hide it slightly and they

40:32

talk about their cafes and things like

40:34

this and which we love. But, you know, they

40:37

I think they're much more defensive. And at the moment, I think meetings are very much

40:39

on the back foot, which is why

40:41

this argument will

40:43

what's the point of them anyway? Why do we just send

40:45

them back? Is

40:50

kind of so

40:52

popular. But I don't know if it will

40:54

happen.

40:55

The the technical

40:58

thing is that there is a law that says it

41:00

can't in Britain, the British

41:03

Museum Act. But

41:05

there are there have been laws

41:07

that say certain things can't happen in relation

41:09

to museums in the past. In relation

41:11

to, for example, human remains. And the

41:13

the government has changed the

41:15

law and therefore, they've

41:17

they've gone back. But

41:20

I do see I mean, I've been putting this debate for a long and it

41:22

does it's very volatile because

41:24

it's so aligned to kind

41:26

of political and intellectual currents. So

41:30

for example, we had

41:32

Brexit in two sixteen,

41:34

which was to leave the European

41:36

Union. It's very the

41:38

vote four was fifty two

41:40

percent. The vote against is forty eight. So

41:42

it's quite a divided. And it

41:46

became a really kind of controversial and still is

41:48

subject with, you know, massive people

41:50

not talking to each other on

41:52

the different sides of the

41:54

divide. Point being after

41:57

that, people were concerned that it was a kind

42:00

of return

42:02

to national assert of nationalism. Yeah. That was a general

42:04

feeling. And if you did a

42:06

debate then over the

42:08

marbles, then nobody wanted

42:10

them returned. Because it was

42:12

seen as this kind of expression of Greek

42:14

nationalism and we're against that. That's

42:16

gone. And I think even things

42:18

like Black

42:20

Lives Matter, has changed the

42:22

debate, particularly over things like the

42:24

Benham Brothers, which was something

42:26

different, the objects taken

42:28

from Nigeria, they

42:31

are now going back, and people think

42:33

that will impact upon the

42:36

marbles. But I

42:38

will state my representation saying I don't think they'll go

42:40

back. Well, you heard it

42:42

here first. It's twenty twenty

42:44

three here in January. Well, to

42:47

bold prediction because, you know, it's like when

42:49

people say about Marx,

42:53

he was so He had such foresight, his predictions

42:55

haven't come true yet, meaning, you know, it's just

42:58

a matter of time, but it may take a lot of few

43:00

hundred centuries.

43:02

But that you're gone on record. We

43:05

appreciate the boldness. I I think

43:07

let's turn to this

43:09

question of of the role of

43:11

the museum because you spent a lot of time on it. And I found

43:13

that also quite fascinating.

43:17

Growing up in nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties,

43:20

America's little boy.

43:22

Musians are for where you learn about

43:25

stuff a long time ago and it gets explained

43:28

and you look at might be a

43:30

Diyrama, it might be

43:32

an object, but they're educational

43:34

institutions for understanding the past, generally, or

43:36

for appreciating art. And of

43:38

course, as you write quite

43:42

nicely about many

43:44

defenders of museums in the

43:46

past. They were also seen

43:49

as symbolizing that that you went to a museum to become

43:51

quote a better person. You

43:53

you educated yourself,

43:56

you appreciated the

43:58

art or the artifacts of the

44:00

past. And

44:02

you also point out of

44:05

course that even though they're for the people, they tend

44:07

historically to be mostly for

44:09

rich people. Not

44:13

most museum goers tend

44:15

to be relatively well

44:18

off. And so there's a little bit of

44:20

an illusion there that it's for the people

44:22

writ large. That's true colleges

44:24

and universities too. By the way, we

44:27

we romanticized them as for the

44:29

people, but fact, they tend to be well off people. And

44:31

so subsidizing them as we do both of those

44:33

items. Universities and museums strikes me as a

44:36

little bizarre. And

44:39

dishonest, but that's the

44:41

way it is. But your

44:43

point, which is

44:46

obvious even to those of us who aren't experts, is

44:48

that the whole idea of a museum is in

44:50

the way I've described it is under attack.

44:52

Museums are now frequently seen

44:56

as their appropriate mission should

44:58

be vehicles for restitution, contrition,

45:02

apology, attainment,

45:05

or a social a cultural agenda.

45:08

So talk about that movement and

45:10

why in your feelings

45:12

about

45:12

it. Okay. Well, I I think

45:13

it's quite let's let's try and think

45:15

about the museum

45:16

of the Victorian age or the enlightenment age

45:18

and the museum of the present. I think

45:22

there was a great there was a lot of building of museums

45:24

in the enlightenment period later

45:26

and then the Victorian age. And

45:28

I think the idea then was

45:32

to educate Kate the masses.

45:34

And there was a paternalism to

45:36

that. But the British Museum was

45:38

free to owe free to anyone

45:41

from seventeen fifty six, you had to write

45:43

and apply. So, you

45:46

know,

45:46

there was a certain barrier. You also had to have

45:50

clean shoes. I think the one in

45:52

Russia, you had to wear

45:54

dress like a proper evening gown and a dress

45:56

suit. So there

45:58

was a terminalism there, but I did think I do think that there was

46:00

a sense that ordinary people

46:04

could be

46:06

could learn something, could be transformed,

46:08

you know, could move from

46:10

their their particular circumstances

46:14

into another. Okay? And I don't think that's so much the case

46:16

now in all the discussions about

46:18

accessibility in museums. It's

46:20

very much the sense in which we need

46:22

to reflect their culture to

46:24

them. We need to go to

46:26

them. You know, there might be the hindering

46:28

about not having teenage boys in there.

46:30

So what do we do? We'll put in the case here, you know,

46:32

we'll put video exhibition and video games

46:34

on, and then they'll

46:36

come. So there is in that sense

46:38

that you could move So

46:40

thought that paternalism was good, but

46:42

there was a sense that we could,

46:44

you know, we could be we

46:46

could be

46:48

transformed we could be educated, even

46:50

ordinary people. So I think

46:52

that's gone. I think there was

46:56

also I think perhaps in the past, and there's always a danger when you talk about the

46:58

past that you idealize it. So I accept

47:00

that. But I think there was

47:04

an interest in other cultures that in a way you don't

47:06

quite get the same today. Now,

47:08

what do I mean by that?

47:11

When we talk about things

47:13

like diversity

47:15

and world culture today,

47:18

it's remarkably

47:20

unspecific And sometimes

47:22

you feel more like it's a

47:26

moral lesson. Than

47:28

it is and a lesson about those people of the past.

47:31

So I think museums

47:33

have become very moralized particularly

47:36

around a kind of the

47:39

reckoning with history that's

47:42

going on. Particularly in

47:44

in Britain, I don't I I mean, I'm sure it I

47:46

know it's the sort of similar in the states

47:49

and to a

47:52

lesser degree, parts of

47:54

Europe. There's in Britain is a

47:56

kind of there is a kind

47:58

of encounter with and

48:00

reckoning with the

48:02

colonial

48:02

past. To which you might

48:04

say about time. But it's

48:07

peculiar in that it's

48:10

you don't really learn very much about

48:12

the colonial

48:13

past. You learn it

48:15

was bad. But

48:17

the specifics of it, No.

48:19

And I'll give you an example of a

48:21

recent case. She said

48:24

there's a in

48:25

London, there's a collection called

48:27

The Welcome

48:28

Collection. Henry welcome, the pharmaceuticalist. He was

48:30

also a medical collector of medical objects. And

48:32

he was a slightly, you know, he was a slightly odd

48:34

guy. He collected some really odd stuff.

48:38

Which you could see in

48:41

an exhibition, sort

48:43

of fifteen, twenty long

48:46

exhibition of his collection, which

48:49

itself was multivocal,

48:51

so it had different

48:54

interpretations of the artifacts. Some of

48:56

them are human remains, for example, which are

48:58

very controversial.

49:01

And so it'd have different interpretations of the

49:03

the ethics of having those there and

49:05

what different people might think

49:08

of them. But that

49:10

closed this year, last year

49:12

now because we're in twenty twenty three. That closed

49:14

in at the end of twenty

49:17

twenty two. Because the curator said it

49:19

was racist, sexist, and

49:22

ableist.

49:22

And to which you think, oh, that's bad.

49:24

But then she was unable, I think, to be able

49:27

to explain why it was

49:29

racist, sexist, and why

49:31

if it was it

49:34

should be shut because

49:35

surely, isn't it

49:36

the job of the museum to help

49:39

us understand that mindset, understand

49:41

that time, understand that period.

49:44

It doesn't have to

49:46

be systrophistic or hackyographic about

49:48

it is that is to open up the

49:50

parcel. I almost think that what we're doing

49:53

is almost quarantining the

49:56

past rather than

49:58

exploring it. Another example

50:00

is Pitt Rivers Museum, in

50:03

Oxford, which is is a museum

50:05

of a museum. If you ever want to go

50:07

to see what museums are like in the Victoria and I,

50:09

she could go to this

50:12

or could go

50:14

to this museum. It's all the

50:16

dark cases. It was a ethnographic collection.

50:20

And it was brought together to show hierarchy of cultures by

50:22

comparing the different things that they made. So

50:25

it had that kind of purpose, but

50:27

it it ever to really

50:29

didn't quite achieve that. In fact, if anything, it showed

50:32

the similarity between cultures.

50:35

A case where museums may intend

50:37

to do something, but the

50:39

nature of objects

50:41

and history and people

50:43

is that it

50:46

doesn't you know, doesn't you can't always kind

50:48

of construct it the way you'd like

50:49

to. But they've taken off their

50:52

shrunken heads off display,

50:54

and these are not going to be returned

50:57

to

50:57

communities. I think in many cases, what's the

51:00

interesting thing about the repatriation

51:02

argument is that it's come from

51:04

within museums and confident about

51:06

why they have this stuff anymore, unable

51:08

to do anything with it, thinking,

51:11

let's just get who will take it? Who will who can we

51:13

give it to? And I think there's a degree to which

51:15

you're seeing that with Ben

51:18

and Brunz's in Nigeria.

51:20

There is a demand for them, but there's also an

51:22

eagerness from institutions to get rid of

51:24

them. In the case of

51:26

rivers, they've taken the shrunken heads

51:28

off because they don't have any community to send them to. There's nobody's

51:30

wanting them, but they no longer

51:32

think it's for you, the

51:34

audience because you might think the

51:36

wrong thing. So I think

51:38

there's a sort of

51:40

finger wagging now with

51:42

institutions, which tells

51:44

you very little about the past more

51:46

about the museum mindset of these certain curators and more

51:48

about what they think of the audience, which

51:51

is effectively you need to be

51:53

schooled in the right moral thinking. Not

51:56

about who lived where, when, and how

51:58

they lived. You quote

52:01

the Scholar Torpe and

52:02

maybe of some other people who make

52:05

an argument I never heard before, which I think

52:08

is utterly extraordinarily fascinating,

52:11

which is itopianism

52:14

is in dispute

52:16

to some extent in

52:19

in world thinking. Some

52:22

people recognize that it could actually be utopiaism, it

52:25

can be dangerous. And instead

52:27

of fighting over what is

52:29

the ideal future, we

52:32

culturally have turned to

52:35

the past, which is rather

52:37

an extraordinary moment in

52:40

the human journey. If it's correct. If if this insight is

52:42

correct. The idea is that,

52:44

okay, I'm gonna give up on a

52:46

better future

52:48

because I don't know how

52:50

to get there or we can't agree on it or they all seem pretty horrible and

52:54

and religion

52:56

which once promised, you know, a messianic age

52:58

of sorts is also in

53:02

retreat. So looking toward the

53:04

future is

53:08

shunned. And instead,

53:10

let's fight over the past. Let's

53:12

try to repair our past. Let's

53:16

try to use the

53:18

past as a form of virtuous

53:20

signaling. You

53:22

know, he told me thatism is definitely was has always been a form

53:24

of virtue signaling whether it's religious or

53:28

political or or political,

53:30

but but this this

53:33

focus on the

53:36

past as the battleground of our intellectual

53:38

warfare is is

53:41

a fascinating insight I I

53:43

had never heard

53:44

before. EconTalk

53:46

about that. I think one

53:48

way of thinking about it in a nutshell is

53:50

that you used to have them particularly

53:53

on the left. This sense of don't mourn and

53:56

organize. I think that was a song by

53:58

a left wing protester, Joe Hill,

54:00

don't mourn

54:02

organize. And

54:04

now it's flipped over till we must organize to

54:06

Mon. And I think the left is

54:08

key here because I think you had

54:11

if you look at I mean, I know left and

54:13

right don't really work anymore, but the right

54:16

traditionally had a sense of needing to

54:18

conserve the past. And they perhaps

54:20

too wedded to it, you know. And

54:22

therefore, they weren't open to experimentation and

54:26

different futures that could be imagined

54:28

and realized. That

54:30

was the role I think of the left. And then

54:32

in a way it kind of worked quite well

54:34

in that you had this looked to

54:36

the past and then this looked to this

54:38

the future. And there's a tension between the

54:40

two. And I think over the course of the twentieth century, the

54:44

failures of

54:46

left wing politics and the

54:49

experiments in alternatives to

54:52

capitalism. Failed.

54:54

And I think

54:57

also they left moved away

54:59

from the working class. Towards

55:02

themselves really as being agents

55:04

of

55:05

change. And as a result, that kind of the

55:08

future

55:09

receded. And what

55:12

do you do then? You you have what

55:14

Thatcher described as there is

55:16

no alternative. This is it.

55:19

And it's not a instead

55:22

of being a moment of triumph, I think it

55:24

was a moment of defeat of both left

55:27

and right. Both ideologies have

55:30

waned and weakened.

55:32

And I think you

55:34

can really see sort of post eighty nine

55:37

ninety this turn towards almost a a sort

55:39

of an apologetic outlook. And

55:42

I think at first that was a kind of way of

55:44

gaining legitimacy. I mean, people

55:46

who were apologizing were in our case,

55:48

you know, Tony Blair, the

55:50

pope. The things they

55:52

had nothing to do with the potato blight.

55:55

In his case. This is, you

55:57

know, just before he's going into Iraq.

55:59

This is Tony Blair, not the pope. The

56:01

Tony

56:01

Blair Prime Minister. Yeah. No. Not

56:03

the pope. Yeah. Two different guys. And other things to

56:05

apologize for. But

56:06

yeah. Exactly. But there was this and

56:09

and I think you've seen it I

56:11

think you've really seen it and really kind

56:14

of become really high pitched in the last few

56:16

years over slavery,

56:18

over the birth of America, what

56:21

was the originate originating date

56:23

of

56:23

America, the sixteen

56:26

nineteen project,

56:28

So the foundations of the past are being

56:30

ripped up, and people are fighting over

56:32

its meaning, but it's all driven by

56:36

present. It's nothing to do with the past, but it is very

56:38

destabilizing, I think, because we learned less and less

56:40

about the past.

56:42

We're not thinking

56:44

about the future. And in a way, we've lost

56:46

the we've lost the distinction

56:48

between the past and the future.

56:50

So you get a sort of

56:52

curious presentism. And I think

56:54

the all you all you

56:56

can do really is argue for

56:59

understanding the past but we have to return to politics if you like.

57:01

And I think in in this context, obviously, culture has

57:04

become instead

57:05

of, you know, thinking about how

57:08

you might

57:09

make a productive economy,

57:12

we think about returning

57:16

objects. And the cultural sector has become very very politicized

57:18

and involved in that to its detriment,

57:20

I think. And objects do then become

57:23

tools of politics rather

57:26

than objects of enlightenment. Well, I'm confused about your

57:28

argument about the present versus the

57:32

past. Again,

57:34

I grew up in nineteen

57:36

fifties, nineteen sixties America where,

57:38

you know, cowboys and Indians,

57:40

there were good guys and bad guys.

57:44

And Certainly, the

57:49

some sort of reckoning has been

57:51

made. I don't think it's very effective

57:53

or very well done with

57:56

the treatment of Native Americans

57:58

in the United States.

58:02

The part So I I think that's

58:04

I I wouldn't say we've not we've

58:06

ignored the past. We've swung

58:10

toward a different vision of the past in in the cultural mainstream that

58:13

that's almost as one-sided in some settings,

58:15

not this one, but in

58:18

many settings. That that that's

58:20

not particularly accurate either, but

58:22

at least it's a voice that gets heard,

58:24

that didn't get heard before. The

58:29

part I that I the resident was made in your book, and III

58:31

think you said this. Certainly, it's a theme

58:33

whether you said explicitly or

58:35

not, is that You

58:37

know, the people who stand up at

58:40

conferences and begin by

58:42

announcing that they apologize

58:44

for the fact that the land that that they

58:46

are standing on where the

58:48

campus was established or

58:50

the museum was established once

58:53

belonged to, say, Native Americans

58:55

or some other or an

58:57

aboriginal group in the case of Australia that

59:00

this has you

59:03

could argue whether it's good or bad,

59:06

but it appears to

59:08

be a

59:10

gesture that allows people to

59:12

avoid taking responsibility to

59:15

be the present where

59:17

we're the treatment of

59:20

certainly Native Americans in the United States is is still

59:22

deeply troubling. I'm not talking about

59:24

day to day races. I'm talking about government policy

59:28

is is deeply troubling. And the

59:30

the real problem I have with

59:33

virtue signaling isn't the

59:36

the performative part of it. It's the performative

59:38

part of it to the exclusion of real change.

59:42

So I

59:47

think

59:47

that's that's the problem I have with

59:50

that. I I think you agree with that or

59:52

do you? Yeah. No. I I do very much

59:54

so. I think that's certainly the

59:56

case here as well. And it was

59:58

notable that it was a labor government that

1:00:00

turned to culture to solve

1:00:02

social problems rather

1:00:04

than government. So it said

1:00:06

these these centers, centers

1:00:08

for social inclusion, museums and

1:00:10

galleries. And this was a this was

1:00:12

a government which, you know,

1:00:14

it has we have seen rising inequality and in a way

1:00:16

the retreat of the state

1:00:18

and the government and

1:00:20

the political

1:00:22

sphere from solving social problems. And I think

1:00:25

certainly that's that's

1:00:28

happened. Let me try and explain

1:00:30

what I mean because it's quite hard

1:00:32

to try and tackle

1:00:33

it. I think

1:00:34

if you look at the

1:00:36

museum of the Native American Indian, in

1:00:41

America. It's in Washington

1:00:44

DC on the on the mall? On

1:00:46

the mall.

1:00:49

In a way, it's

1:00:51

definitely progressed from the exhibits that you

1:00:53

talked about in the fifties. There's no doubt about it. In no

1:00:55

way, am I saying we need to go back to the way

1:00:58

things were. But I think two things have

1:01:00

happened. So I'd like

1:01:02

to be critical of them without

1:01:04

saying there was this golden

1:01:06

age. There

1:01:08

was without doubt, no golden age. In

1:01:10

terms of the this

1:01:11

institution, it kind of exemplifies what I

1:01:13

mean. So on the one

1:01:15

hand, you've got

1:01:18

Having cultural representation

1:01:20

and inquiry is essential to

1:01:22

being an equal citizen in society.

1:01:26

But in a way, it's all loaded onto culture. So

1:01:28

that speaks to sort of the point you were making.

1:01:30

In a way, what about what about the stuff?

1:01:32

What about material? You know,

1:01:36

instead treating native Americans

1:01:38

as if their problems can be magic

1:01:40

to wave by a museum. What

1:01:42

about doing other things? Think

1:01:45

there's an element of that. But there

1:01:47

is something else that's gone on. And then where I think

1:01:49

it's more because it's driven for the benefit of the

1:01:52

museum than

1:01:54

it is for the Native Americans. You know, they're the

1:01:56

ones who are making the decisions

1:01:58

about what goes in and what this

1:02:00

museum

1:02:01

is for.

1:02:02

They do it in the name of in the voice of Native

1:02:04

Americans. I said they I mean, they run they

1:02:07

they have to have a certain number number of

1:02:09

Native Americans, but who speaks the

1:02:11

native Americans. Right? Who's you know, that

1:02:14

that government took in a way that it's gonna stay

1:02:16

to

1:02:16

appointed. But what

1:02:19

you got is one vision

1:02:21

that's allowed. And so

1:02:23

you it's certain museums

1:02:25

can only be run by people at certain identities and

1:02:27

really can only have certain message

1:02:30

about the past. And that's because almost because

1:02:32

it's so tied to its political purpose,

1:02:34

which is to make people feel like

1:02:36

they're part of America that they're good,

1:02:39

they're nice people. And so the

1:02:41

kind of the narrative

1:02:44

is driven by that political purpose. And so in a way think

1:02:46

you're getting this very idealized

1:02:48

view of history. And

1:02:52

so in So you could say in the

1:02:54

past you had these hidden

1:02:56

histories where which might

1:02:58

have been the native you

1:02:59

know, the history of native Americans in America.

1:03:01

Was written by Americans,

1:03:04

and it was

1:03:05

hidden. It was sort of secreted

1:03:08

away. And now

1:03:10

you have a new hidden history because only certain people you

1:03:12

in a way, only certain histories are allowed to

1:03:14

be told. They dress it up in

1:03:18

nice language. But it's still it's still very

1:03:20

partial. Does that make sense? Yeah. I

1:03:22

mean, you could I mean, part of it

1:03:24

is the fact

1:03:27

that in large mass

1:03:29

cultural movements, Nuance is never gonna be

1:03:31

the strong suit

1:03:33

of unfortunately, just a reality.

1:03:38

The motto of this program Tiffany

1:03:40

is it's

1:03:42

complicated. Yeah. It's the

1:03:44

informal motto that people tease me about.

1:03:46

And it's complicated. It

1:03:49

doesn't sell very well. And

1:03:53

so, inevitably, I think it's going to be the case, culture swings

1:03:56

between various unnuanced

1:04:00

interpretations of history. But

1:04:06

I think what you remind

1:04:08

me of that that

1:04:10

is fascinating

1:04:14

and alarming.

1:04:16

Is that these institutions that we're talking about museums.

1:04:18

But of course, that's just

1:04:20

one piece of the cultural landscape. Another

1:04:23

important piece of the cultural landscape

1:04:26

are universities.

1:04:30

And I think I've joked about this on the

1:04:32

program before a when

1:04:36

I was at Washington University in Saint Louis,

1:04:38

a friend of mine was he

1:04:40

told me he's spending a lot of time on a committee he was on. I said, what what committees said? Well,

1:04:42

it's the education committee. And so, what do you mean

1:04:44

the education committee? So, well, you know, it's

1:04:47

the committee that keeps an eye

1:04:50

on the educational process.

1:04:52

Well, you're thinking, but isn't this

1:04:54

universe? I mean, isn't that

1:04:56

authentic? And of course, it's not. And

1:04:58

and universities which were

1:05:01

temples of scholarship

1:05:04

and education. In

1:05:06

the old days just like museums were temples

1:05:10

of historical memory

1:05:12

and and

1:05:14

and education. Now they have they

1:05:16

they serve a different purpose. And

1:05:18

and some would say that's better. I

1:05:20

wouldn't, but who knows if I'm right?

1:05:23

The argument is that they serve our identity or our

1:05:26

sense of who we are

1:05:28

or a a cultural

1:05:30

force that's

1:05:32

necessary as atonement for a past

1:05:34

injustice. Right

1:05:37

now, in America, Many

1:05:41

many colleges are dropping the

1:05:43

meritocratic entry barriers that they

1:05:46

once established

1:05:48

of SAT scores,

1:05:51

grades in the name

1:05:53

of other goals. And

1:05:56

I think that's I think a great deal is lost, but others would say,

1:05:59

yeah, perhaps, but much

1:06:01

has gained. But but the

1:06:03

real point is that all

1:06:06

of these institutions, and I'm sure there are others,

1:06:08

are not doing what

1:06:10

they once did, and that's

1:06:12

just the way it is.

1:06:15

I think the question

1:06:18

therefore is, are they

1:06:20

succeeding on their own terms? I don't

1:06:22

think they

1:06:24

are. I I think

1:06:26

you have to ask access to

1:06:28

what? And if you're one of the people who

1:06:30

allow who are kind of committed in finally,

1:06:34

By lowering the demands,

1:06:36

are you going to be satisfied?

1:06:38

No. Because I think you're treated.

1:06:40

It's a it's a lie. Isn't it?

1:06:42

Really? If you're not being educated as the standard, you need

1:06:44

to be to get into university. And

1:06:46

then at university, educated to a

1:06:48

higher standard than being allowed, if

1:06:52

you like, for your imagination to roam

1:06:54

free if you're not being

1:06:56

stimulated, which I don't think people are. They're just

1:06:58

being told they're They're

1:07:00

in, here's the certificate. You

1:07:02

know, it's a con. I think

1:07:04

it's a con for those people. I

1:07:07

think there are better

1:07:07

ways, which is there might there are reasons why people

1:07:10

aren't getting to stand

1:07:12

you know, getting to

1:07:13

the educational level they need

1:07:16

to get to to get into university. And they

1:07:18

need to be tackled in it. How do we how

1:07:20

do we really create a

1:07:22

a kind of healthy

1:07:24

intellectual culture? helps

1:07:26

people up. We're not doing that. I

1:07:28

also think that when you get to

1:07:30

university, I mean, I speak to students a lot and they

1:07:32

just feel like because they've paid

1:07:34

their money,

1:07:35

they're they're there for kind of all these

1:07:37

other kind of political goals.

1:07:40

They know

1:07:41

it's not kind

1:07:43

of it's not this intellectual space that they want, they

1:07:45

would like. I think it's the con.

1:07:47

Well, some of it

1:07:48

is a you know, if we looked at

1:07:50

the underlying driving courses on this, I

1:07:53

I think it's much more about egalitarianism than it

1:07:55

is about fighting injustice. I think

1:07:57

it's a a desire for leveling

1:08:00

and getting rid of

1:08:02

hierarchy and argue that that's got some

1:08:04

benefits. Open minded or agnostic

1:08:06

about that. But I

1:08:10

think the the point you

1:08:12

make in your book, which I find quite persuasive, is that

1:08:14

museums weren't designed to

1:08:20

be places of atonement. They

1:08:22

weren't designed to be the

1:08:25

place to conduct

1:08:28

cultural contrition they

1:08:30

were designed to educate. And whether they were designed for that or not, doesn't matter, they don't

1:08:32

perform you

1:08:37

as you alluded to a minute ago, they

1:08:39

do not perform the task that they're being asked to perform very effectively. We need a different

1:08:41

institution for that. The political process

1:08:43

needs to do that. The

1:08:47

political processes to redress grievances. And

1:08:49

the real risk and

1:08:51

and I I worry when I

1:08:54

say this it sounds like an excuse. So I I say it

1:08:56

was some caution. The real worry

1:08:58

is that by doing what what

1:09:01

is a sham in in this case,

1:09:03

apologizing for, say, past injustices and accumulation

1:09:05

of items at a museum or

1:09:08

closing a museum or

1:09:10

getting rid of the items that that that make people uncomfortable,

1:09:12

we we we've

1:09:16

solved we've

1:09:19

solved our conscience. And therefore, we're done.

1:09:21

And the true injustices, the true things that need to be

1:09:24

redress are are

1:09:26

left undone. And I

1:09:28

think the

1:09:31

natural response to that as well,

1:09:33

you should do both, but that does not seem

1:09:35

to be the human response. It's

1:09:37

it seems to be more like

1:09:39

Well, I apologized. You know, I'm done.

1:09:41

I've done my part.

1:09:44

And so I I

1:09:46

think your critique of museums

1:09:48

as ill suited for

1:09:50

cultural education of this kind

1:09:52

via political

1:09:53

arguments is is very

1:09:55

persuasive to me. Right.

1:09:58

I think it comes about for

1:10:01

two reasons. One is the kind

1:10:03

of future looking political

1:10:05

projects. Which means the cultural sphere

1:10:07

and the past becomes the place for kind of contestation. And to

1:10:10

the sense in which museums

1:10:15

and institutions of learning, including universities,

1:10:17

have lost faith in

1:10:19

the point or most

1:10:22

of learning about the past and the

1:10:24

possibility, you know, the possibility that we could do

1:10:26

that and it's not all just a relativist mush.

1:10:29

And so they're linked, unfortunately. And I think getting out of it does

1:10:31

mean both doing stuff in the political sphere where

1:10:33

there is a great

1:10:35

deal of fatalism. You

1:10:39

know, if we are determined, if everything today is

1:10:41

as as a result of what happened

1:10:43

two hundred years ago, then what

1:10:45

can we do? You know, they're just prisoners. There's a real

1:10:48

fatalism. So some kind

1:10:50

of more ambitious

1:10:53

thinking about the possibilities of what human

1:10:55

beings can do because we have I

1:10:57

mean, the past is sort

1:10:59

of a half, empty, half full thing,

1:11:01

isn't it? You know, depending on the way

1:11:03

you look at it, it could be all

1:11:05

terrible, war, inequality, violence, abuse, or it could

1:11:08

be the things that

1:11:10

we have achieved, civil rights,

1:11:13

degree of equality, material advancement, the medical breakthroughs.

1:11:15

And so, you know, we we need to rebalance

1:11:17

the way we see our past

1:11:19

a little bit more. It

1:11:24

perhaps was a little bit too positive in

1:11:26

the past. Now it's a little bit too

1:11:28

negative. But so we need to have,

1:11:30

I think, as a society, much more kind

1:11:32

of confidence in what human

1:11:34

beings can be and do.

1:11:37

Some more ambitious thinking there.

1:11:39

But we also just need to treasure the insights and

1:11:41

the knowledge and the creativity of

1:11:43

civilizations that came

1:11:46

before us. To be able to look and understand

1:11:48

at what they created, the bad,

1:11:50

and the good. And museums and

1:11:53

institutions like universities are place to do that. We need

1:11:55

in a way to respect what the past can tell us

1:11:57

and understand that there's a threat between the

1:12:00

two

1:12:02

and not confuse them, I suppose. I guess, the day has been

1:12:04

Tiffany Jenkins. Tiffany, thanks for

1:12:06

being part of EconTalk. Thank

1:12:10

you. This is econ

1:12:13

talk, part of

1:12:16

the EconTalk of

1:12:19

economics and liberty, For more EconTalk, go

1:12:22

to econ talk dot org, where you can also comment on today's podcast and find links and readings

1:12:25

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1:12:28

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1:12:30

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1:12:33

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1:12:36

on Monday.