0:08

So this is it's desert Live. And

0:10

I'm Ed Setzer. I'm the dean of the Talbot school

0:12

of theology. Have Biola University.

0:15

Today's show is actually pre-recorded, so it

0:17

is probably ironically called Ed Switzer Live.

0:19

But nevertheless, that's where we are.

0:21

And so. Well, we have a pretty exciting

0:23

conversation today that you're going to find

0:25

interesting. And we're going to lean in on some questions

0:28

that people have and more. Our guest

0:30

today is Doug Huffman. He's a doctor.

0:32

Doug Huffman serves as the professor of

0:34

New Testament and dean of academic

0:36

programs for the Talbot School of Theology at

0:38

Bill University. So, yes, he's my colleague. He's

0:41

the author of several books, currently serves as

0:43

consultant for The Chosen, and he's a

0:45

pastor, licensed and ordained minister in the

0:47

Evangelical Free Church of the America

0:49

of America. Now, Doug, we are going

0:51

to talk some about The Chosen.

0:53

But I do sometimes like wonder if like

0:55

if you're just this guy teaching New Testament

0:58

and loving Jesus and all of a sudden

1:00

everybody wants to talk about the chosen. You've

1:02

written lots of things,

1:04

uh, really, really helpful resources, including

1:06

a couple of books coming out in 2020 for understanding

1:09

the New Testament use of the Old Testament,

1:11

which I must tell you, the government I have questions

1:13

about. I can't wait for that. Also, the story

1:16

of Jesus continues a survey of

1:18

the acts of the apostles from Zonda and Academic.

1:20

But you also written lots of other resources.

1:22

We're going to go. If everyone goes to Ed Stats or Live.com,

1:25

you can find a link to all of Doug's

1:27

books, because he is a serious

1:29

and significant New Testament scholar,

1:32

and might add a key part

1:34

of the team here at the Talbot School

1:36

of Theology. So, um, we

1:38

are going to talk some about The Chosen, but I'm going to

1:40

throw a couple of questions, New Testament ish

1:42

around there, because I know that

1:44

you are a scholar

1:46

in the New Testament. So matter of fact, I

1:48

mean, how what do you teach now at Talbot? What

1:51

do you teach now?

1:52

Well, due to my. Good morning. Great

1:54

to be with you. Um, due to my,

1:56

um, administrative duties, I

1:59

really only teach 1 or 2 classes

2:01

each semester. Right now, I've been teaching the

2:03

Book of Acts, which folds

2:05

into that forthcoming Acts

2:07

survey book. Uh, and then I'm,

2:09

uh, because of my responsibilities

2:12

with the chosen as a script consultant,

2:14

the film school at Biola has asked

2:16

me to team teach the

2:18

faith and film class. So those are

2:21

the classes that I'm currently involved with.

2:23

Well that's fun. We have a crazy, crazy,

2:26

um, film program here at the variety magazine

2:28

recently listed the top ten film schools

2:31

in the US, and Biola University is right there,

2:33

right here in Los Angeles County, and building

2:35

a new building and lots of good things going on

2:37

in film. So I love that you're there. Okay.

2:39

But it's actually your New Testament ish

2:41

work that got you engaged at The Chosen.

2:44

And it wasn't just because, you know, The chosen

2:46

is about, you know, Jesus and the New Testament, but

2:48

you had some connection with. Well, you tell us the connection

2:50

with the leaders here.

2:52

Yeah. Well, um, 30

2:54

years ago, when I first started

2:57

out teaching at a small school in

2:59

Minnesota, uh, Dallas Jenkins

3:01

was one of my students. Um,

3:04

in fact, I was teaching a Christian

3:06

thought course, and

3:08

he was in that particular class.

3:10

We engaged in discussion about

3:12

how Christians can influence the culture.

3:14

He was very interested in film back

3:17

then and obviously still now. Uh,

3:19

so it started a long friendship.

3:22

Um, his wife, Amanda, was one

3:24

of my students as well. Um, so

3:27

we've seen them in their romance

3:29

develop, and now they've been married for over 25

3:32

years for kids. Um, yeah.

3:34

So I've got a long connection with Dallas.

3:36

Uh, and so it was an easy ask for him

3:38

and an easy for me when he

3:40

was thinking about doing this show.

3:43

Yeah. And he, uh, he's been on the program. We'll

3:45

link to his past, uh, his

3:47

past interview as well. We talked a lot about, well, maybe

3:49

some of the things we'll talk about here, but also some

3:51

things that are different. For those of you who don't know, Dallas Jenkins

3:53

is, uh, film and television

3:56

director, writer and film producer and,

3:58

of course, best known for The Chosen, though I got to say,

4:00

I like The Resurrection of Gavin Stone, which

4:02

he talks about his greatest failure. Uh, but

4:04

and that led him into this chosen. But I like that movie.

4:06

I thought it was fun, but what do I know?

4:08

All right, so, um, so so then you

4:11

serve as a consultant

4:13

on the script. It's not just you tell us

4:15

about the group and what you do.

4:17

Yeah. He has asked, uh, three

4:19

of us, uh, to be consultants.

4:22

Uh, looking at the scripts, there's, uh,

4:24

Father David Guffey, a Roman Catholic

4:26

priest, um, a

4:29

messianic Jewish rabbi. Joseph,

4:31

uh, um, uh, Jason

4:34

Sobel and then myself,

4:36

an evangelical, uh, scholar.

4:38

Yes. It sounds like a joke. A priest,

4:41

a scholar, and a rabbi enter a TV

4:43

studio. Um, but,

4:46

uh, we get the scripts, um,

4:48

we read through them individually

4:50

and send back our feedback, and they

4:52

take those, uh, pieces of feedback

4:55

and to adjust the

4:57

script before filming. And

4:59

then after filming, they bring the three

5:01

of us back together to,

5:03

uh, discuss the episodes and

5:05

the significant things going on inside

5:08

the show. Uh, and Dallas is humble

5:10

enough to say, okay, what did I do?

5:12

Uh, incorrectly. Uh, what did I get right?

5:14

What did I get wrong? Um, and there are

5:16

great, um, uh, conversations

5:19

around the table. And those

5:21

roundtable discussions are available, uh,

5:23

on the app so people can watch. Yeah, they can go to the.

5:25

Shows, an app, and and you can actually watch

5:28

your discussions. And they're kind of

5:30

they're pretty interesting to me because, you know, I'm a theology

5:32

nerd, but a lot of our listeners will will be in

5:34

that space as well. Um,

5:36

because, I mean, so what we should say, I

5:38

guess, that if we find anything we disagree

5:40

with in the chosen, we should email you directly and

5:42

let you know of our disagreements. Is that correct?

5:45

No, no, there are many people that do

5:47

that actually. Yes.

5:49

Yeah, I imagine I imagine that there are. Well,

5:51

because here's where the here's what the challenge is, is you are

5:54

you are um, you are adding,

5:57

uh, context or more information or

5:59

speculative fiction between

6:02

something that we as Christians believe. Well, we

6:04

at Talbert believe is the inerrant word of God.

6:06

And so tell us why it's

6:08

it's a good thing to you because obviously

6:10

you're participating. To add what is

6:12

speculative fiction between

6:15

something so sacred as

6:17

the word of God? Talk to us about that.

6:19

Yeah. Um, I tell people

6:21

maybe this is a blinding glimpse

6:23

of the obvious. Um, but

6:26

that's chosen is not

6:28

the Bible. The chosen is

6:30

a TV show. And,

6:33

uh, people are saying, you know, well, you're adding

6:35

to the Bible and it's like, um, no,

6:38

we're not intending to

6:40

have you print out the scripts for the

6:42

show and make it book number 67 in

6:44

your Bible. That's not the goal

6:47

of the Chosen. Um,

6:49

recently I've found myself comparing

6:51

the chosen to lead

6:53

in our davinci's, uh, famous painting

6:56

The Last Supper. And

6:58

people really like that work of art.

7:00

Um. And they look at

7:02

it and say, oh, look, there's John sitting

7:05

next to Jesus, just like he's described

7:07

in the Gospel of John. And oh, there's

7:09

Judas with the money bag, just like the

7:11

Bible describes him as being the person

7:14

who was in charge of the finances for

7:16

the disciples. And so they find

7:18

all these biblical connections in that work

7:20

of art, and they rejoice in that.

7:22

But then they stand back and they look and go, huh?

7:25

I didn't know that the Last Supper was held

7:27

in a, um, in

7:29

an upper room that had,

7:32

you know, medieval architecture

7:34

and really the the table

7:36

was set up on Sawhorses and

7:38

they all sat on one side of the table.

7:41

And so then they begin to critique the work

7:43

of art and they say, well, it

7:45

looks like Leonardo's, uh,

7:47

representation of these biblical

7:49

themes has added to

7:51

the Bible. But again, it's

7:53

a work of art. It's not the Bible. Nobody thinks

7:56

that that painting should be printed out and

7:58

stuck as book number 67, in the back of

8:00

their Bibles. You shouldn't do

8:02

that with the chosen either. So

8:04

what they're trying to do, the

8:07

writers are trying to add plausible

8:09

backstory. They're trying to

8:11

move from the written page of Scripture

8:14

to an audio visual

8:16

work of art, and you can't get around

8:19

filling in the details. Does

8:21

that make sense?

8:22

It does, it does. I think it would be

8:24

consistent if somebody were to

8:26

object to the chosen, that they would also object

8:29

to, uh, Leonardo's Last

8:31

Supper. I would also point out to you that Leonardo's

8:33

Last Supper, uh, launched a thousand

8:35

conspiracy theories with that extra hand and that

8:37

knife that's over there and the V-shape in the middle

8:39

and and so, so,

8:41

so but so maybe your example also

8:44

kind of leads to I mean, it does this

8:46

kind of stuff riles people up. And I think

8:48

one of the reasons it riles people up, one of

8:50

the reasons is you're kind of,

8:52

um, you kind of messing with stuff

8:54

that maybe they think is better

8:56

not portrayed, whether it's

8:58

in Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper.

9:01

And there are some people, you know, particularly maybe

9:03

people on the more reform side who hold

9:05

a theological view of about

9:07

images. You shouldn't have any image that's

9:10

there. Um, but I guess what you're

9:12

saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, is that it?

9:14

Consistency would really make

9:16

the difference, is that you're just gonna have to be consistent

9:19

about how you hold these images.

9:21

Sure. And again,

9:24

you know, I remind people

9:26

maybe with a little too much fun, right?

9:28

If if you find the

9:31

chosen offensive as a TV

9:33

show, you know, you don't have to watch

9:35

it. And if you get more spiritual

9:37

fulfillment by watching the news

9:40

or some other sitcom,

9:42

then you know that's your choice,

9:45

but that it's

9:47

not at all the intention of the chosen

9:49

to, um, unnecessarily

9:52

offend our sensitivities. In fact,

9:54

if people make a good

9:56

observation about the

9:59

very first episode of The Chosen,

10:01

it actually puts a disclaimer on

10:03

the screen that says, you know,

10:06

it's based on the true stories of

10:08

the gospels of Jesus Christ. Back

10:10

stories and characters and dialogue

10:13

have been added. We're encouraging

10:15

you to read the Gospels.

10:18

As they say, the book is always better

10:20

than the movie, right? So

10:22

that and I tell Dallas,

10:25

uh, when we get these,

10:27

um, uh, pieces of hate mail,

10:29

um, I said, you should you

10:32

should actually look at the good side of that. People are

10:34

going and reading their Bibles and they're saying, hey,

10:36

that piece of the chosen is not

10:38

in the Bible. Good for you for noticing. We

10:40

want you to read the Bible. Don't have

10:42

your devotions with the TV show. So.

10:45

Yeah. It's good. I think ultimately one

10:48

of the things I'm going to ask and we're going to we're going to take

10:50

a pause for just a second. But one of the things I want to ask

10:52

is, why do you think it's become so just

10:54

insanely popular?

10:56

Um, I mean, people all around the world and now with the

10:59

with this foundation coming alongside to try to

11:01

translate into all these languages and millions

11:03

and hundreds of millions of people and more.

11:05

So we're gonna continue our conversation with Doug Huffman,

11:07

who's a New Testament scholar, that one of

11:09

the many things he does, he does great leadership

11:12

at Catholic school theology teaches New Testament

11:14

as well, but he also has consultant with

11:16

The chosen. We're going to continue our conversation with

11:18

him.

11:19

And just a moment.

11:37

Hey! We're back. Headsets are live. I'm Ed

11:39

Stetson, your host. This and every Saturday at this time. My

11:41

guest today is a

11:43

friend, a colleague. We worked together there at the Talbot

11:45

School of Theology, Doug Huffman's

11:48

name. He's a professor of New Testament, and

11:50

he leads our academic programs there as well.

11:52

He's got a really a wonderful

11:54

array of books, including two new books coming

11:56

out as well, some some

11:59

much more technical as well. For example, he's written a book

12:01

called Verbal Aspect Theory and the prohibitions

12:03

in the Greek New Testament. So that's quite

12:05

a party. Uh, on the other hand, a little less

12:08

heavy as things like the Handy Guide for New Testament

12:10

Greek, new books coming out, and more

12:12

so when I encourage you to to follow the

12:14

links that are live and pick up some of

12:16

Doug's content as well.

12:18

He's, he's he's quite a thinker and and a

12:20

good brother. Okay. So we were talking about

12:22

the chosen, uh, you're serving as a consultant at

12:25

The Chosen, and there's,

12:27

um, one of my questions is just why

12:29

do you think it's so wildly

12:32

popular? I mean, I and I got to confess,

12:34

you know, I didn't watch it for a long time,

12:37

and then my wife was watching it.

12:39

She's all into it. And then,

12:41

uh, you know, I was like, I'm not, you know, Christian television,

12:43

Christian movies. It's just not they have not

12:45

won me over Doug Huffman. They have not won

12:47

me over. So finally, I'm talking to,

12:49

uh, Mark green, who's the guy from Hobby Lobby,

12:52

and he's and he asks, he just brings up the

12:54

shows. And I said, well, I haven't seen it. And he's like, you

12:56

need to see it. I'm going to send you DVDs. I'm like,

12:58

I'm like, who has DVD? Like, I don't even have a DVD player

13:00

anymore. But his point was, I'm not going

13:02

to let you have any excuse not to watch The Chosen.

13:04

And I watched it, and then I really ended

13:07

up binge watching it, which I guess

13:09

is something Dallas said from the beginning. He wanted a Christian,

13:11

a show about Jesus people could binge watch.

13:13

But why is it working? Doug Huffman.

13:18

Well, I'd like to, uh, I'd like

13:21

to answer that question maybe in a couple

13:23

of different ways. Uh, first, um,

13:25

why is it that faith based films

13:27

are often rather poor quality?

13:30

Uh, I would suggest that,

13:32

uh, there's several reasons for that. One of them is they

13:34

often just don't have the financial backing.

13:36

They can't, um, they can't hire

13:39

the best cast and crew members. They can't

13:41

rent the best equipment. They don't have access

13:43

to the best, uh, editing suites,

13:45

all of those things. But,

13:47

uh, a second reason I think faith based

13:50

films sometimes fail

13:52

is because they're so concerned

13:55

to explain the

13:57

story that it affects

13:59

the storytelling. They try to explain

14:01

the story inside the story,

14:04

and that falls flat. Even

14:06

Jesus told parables that

14:08

he didn't explain while he was

14:10

telling the parable. Um, and

14:13

I think The chosen

14:15

is focused on really good storytelling

14:18

and is not as concerned

14:20

with explaining the story inside

14:23

the story. Um, on the

14:25

chosen app, you have lots of tools

14:27

to explain the story. The Bible roundtables.

14:30

We analyze the story outside

14:32

of the story, but inside the story, they're

14:35

just focused on telling the really good

14:37

story. So I think that's one

14:39

of the things that makes The Chosen really

14:42

inviting to audiences.

14:45

I think it's interesting, too. I think

14:47

that, um, the, the, the

14:50

resources that are available around

14:52

the chosen, I don't think it's, I mean, I don't

14:54

I know that most people aren't aware of those.

14:56

I mean, everyone sort of has some level awareness.

14:59

Probably most of our audience has, um, level awareness of the chosen, but

15:01

they don't know you're having, like theological discussions

15:03

and other resources around that. Just so I

15:05

encourage everyone to pick up the chosen app. I think

15:07

that would be helpful for you to do.

15:09

I'm interested. Like your particular role,

15:11

you're a New Testament scholar, and then there's

15:13

a Catholic priest and a

15:16

messianic rabbi. A messianic rabbi would

15:18

be a Christian follower of Jesus who's a rabbi. Um,

15:20

and so that's a that's an interesting mix

15:23

right there. I'm kind of wondering

15:25

what that what that's like and what

15:27

do those sessions sort of feel like and sound

15:29

like.

15:30

Yeah. Um, the three of us get along

15:32

really, really well, um,

15:34

even when we differ on

15:36

our Christian traditions.

15:38

Um, and you can see some of those differences

15:41

taking place in those roundtable discussions.

15:43

But we, uh, each of us brings sort of

15:46

our area of expertise to help

15:48

with the storytelling. So as

15:50

a New Testament scholar, I'm very,

15:52

um, oriented toward this, the

15:54

text of the New Testament, the Gospels

15:57

for the chosen, and the story of

15:59

Jesus. I'm also very interested

16:01

in the first century, um, historical

16:04

setting in the background. Dallas

16:06

will tell you that I'm the guy, the

16:08

consultant, who complains about,

16:11

um, the distance between cities.

16:13

And they sometimes they, um, they

16:15

have a plot

16:18

line in the story that

16:20

a person travels from this city to

16:22

that city and back again, and they, you know, they

16:24

do it in a matter of two days, and it's like,

16:26

uh, yeah. Dallas, that would take a week to do

16:28

that trip. And so I'm the

16:30

guy that reminds them of those sorts

16:32

of things. Um, unsurprisingly,

16:35

um, uh, Jason

16:37

Sobel, our Jewish rabbi, is

16:40

very interested in the culture. And

16:42

so he's got lots of suggestions for the

16:44

show on the representation of Jewish

16:46

culture. And then, um, Father

16:49

David Guffey, he

16:51

brings a lot of church history and,

16:54

um, a sense of theological

16:56

import to the discussion

16:59

and how things are displayed

17:01

and the, um, potential

17:03

symbolic representations going

17:05

on in the show and the

17:08

ripple effect that that has for

17:10

the church today. So each

17:12

of us brings a little something to those,

17:14

um, analysis of the story.

17:18

Fascinating, fascinating. Of course, David Guffey,

17:20

he's been involved in eras of theater,

17:22

and more so that certainly

17:24

makes some sense there. But it does. It does

17:26

also kind of talk to like, what

17:29

kind of show is this,

17:31

uh, event? You know, Christian

17:33

Lee, you know, is this a. Yeah. Is this an

17:35

evangelical show? Is this a

17:38

is this a Christian show? And the

17:40

one question I want to ask after that to follow up

17:42

with it, where does Mormonism fit into

17:44

these conversations? Before we get to that, let's talk

17:46

some first about so how does

17:48

how does Dallas and how do you describe

17:51

this? Is this a Christian show?

17:53

Um, you know, the chosen

17:55

as a television company.

17:58

It's a limited liability. Uh,

18:00

corporation. So LLC,

18:02

uh, it's not a

18:04

ministry, much less a church.

18:07

It's not a business. Yeah, it's

18:09

a business. They're doing a TV show.

18:12

Um, I would describe it as,

18:14

um, a TV show with

18:16

a mission. It's not a mission in

18:19

itself, but he has

18:21

a mission for this TV show. And that mission

18:23

is to get the people to

18:26

read their Bibles, because

18:28

Jesus is an important figure

18:30

that they should be interacting with.

18:33

Um, so that is

18:35

a missionary goal,

18:37

I suppose you could say for this TV

18:39

show. Um, and Dallas

18:42

has an evangelical Christian is, you know,

18:44

pretty up front about his ministry

18:47

in in that sense, he

18:49

actually has that ministry inside the show

18:51

because as a regular old

18:53

TV show, he's got cast

18:55

and crew members that are not believers at all,

18:58

um, because they're just professional workers.

19:00

And so I pray for Dallas and his

19:02

ministry inside the show. Yeah,

19:04

I think that's important. Um,

19:07

the, um, one of the things,

19:10

I guess maybe the second big thing that makes

19:12

the show so popular with so many

19:15

viewers is not

19:17

just that it tells the story well, but

19:19

it tells the story in a relatable

19:22

fashion. Dallas is desire

19:24

to get people to read their Bibles.

19:26

Um, includes the desire to get them

19:28

to read their Bibles with a proper

19:31

imagination. Um, we're

19:33

2000 years, you know, approximately

19:35

after the writing of the New Testament and

19:37

the original readers and hearers

19:40

of the New Testament itself, they

19:42

would have had the bright pictures in their

19:44

heads about what's being described

19:46

on the page. And so the

19:48

chosen is just a manner to, uh,

19:51

excite people's imagination

19:53

for them to read it correctly

19:55

rather than to have these flat

19:57

figures, uh, on the page

19:59

to remember. Oh, yeah, that's right. Peter

20:02

was a real person, and we

20:04

know from the New Testament that he was

20:06

married. And, uh, the New Testament

20:08

actually doesn't mention his wife. It mentions his

20:10

mother in law. And usually

20:12

a spouse comes with a mother in law.

20:14

So what was it like for a married

20:17

person to be a follower of Jesus?

20:19

And the TV show tries

20:21

to portray a little bit of that.

20:23

And I think that's one of the

20:25

things that makes the show popular is viewers

20:28

go, oh, I'm a married person.

20:30

Oh, uh, I, I've never

20:32

read about that passage

20:34

in the New Testament with that sense of imagination,

20:37

but maybe I should, um.

20:40

Uh, so I think that is what's drawing

20:42

people in rather than be overly

20:44

explanatory. The

20:46

show is trying to tell the story

20:49

with a proper sense of imagination,

20:51

and people are starting to see that, oh,

20:53

Jesus does apply to my

20:55

life as well.

20:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's

21:00

also I mean, that's the thing I think you're right.

21:02

One of the reasons it's so popular, it's also one of the reasons

21:04

why people, uh, maybe particularly

21:06

theologically driven people, um, sometimes

21:09

have concerns. I'll give an example. So I think

21:11

I should say to you, I'm raising

21:13

these issues and, you know, that I've been watching,

21:15

binge watched it, and I've been a fan, and we've

21:18

actually gone to the set together, uh, there

21:20

in, uh, Texas and filmed some content

21:22

there. We'll link that over at stats or Live.com.

21:25

Um, but at the same time, like when

21:27

I read the New Testament, now, having

21:29

watched The Chosen, uh, and

21:31

really having someone in my family who's

21:34

on the spectrum, on the autism spectrum, um,

21:36

like, it makes sense to me that Matthew

21:38

was on the spectrum and I feel like I'm spoiler

21:40

alerting people. But you find this out like in the first episode

21:42

or two, so that's right. Um, um,

21:45

and and and so and I think it's

21:47

a powerful part of it because because I think also Dallas

21:49

has shared his own, uh, you know, uh,

21:51

autism spectrum diagnosis as well. So,

21:54

so you have here something

21:56

that I think is a powerful it's plausible.

21:59

It's powerful, it's impactful.

22:03

Yet now when I read the Bible, I

22:05

tend to I mean, I just know, like

22:07

I see when I'm reading Matthew,

22:09

I'm like, oh yeah, maybe he's maybe he would track that way.

22:11

And part of it is I'm carrying it over from what I saw in The Chosen.

22:13

So that's where I think people

22:16

worry that because the Bible doesn't

22:18

ever say that. And reading into

22:20

that is an extra biblical reading in that could

22:22

influence our reading of the biblical text.

22:24

So, I mean, how would you respond to that?

22:27

Well, um, you're right, the

22:29

Bible does not say that Matthew was

22:32

on the spectrum. Um, but notice

22:34

that it doesn't say he wasn't on the

22:36

spectrum. So, um, yeah.

22:39

Is that an incorrect,

22:42

uh, assumption, or is

22:44

it just an imaginative

22:46

way to look at the text

22:49

in a plausible manner? I

22:51

think we probably need to be a little bit more

22:53

honest. Those people that say

22:55

they actually have no picture

22:58

of Jesus in their head when they're

23:00

reading the Gospels. Um,

23:02

I'm tempted to call them a liar.

23:05

Um, they've got some picture in their

23:07

head. Um, and I'm not

23:09

so sure that, um,

23:12

having a picture in their head is

23:14

is a is a good goal

23:16

to say I want to avoid that.

23:18

Um, uh, again, a

23:20

proper sense of imagination.

23:22

We we have a

23:25

positive respect for art.

23:28

Um, the Bible itself shows

23:30

that God's in favor of some

23:32

artistic representations. Indeed.

23:36

No. One of the Big Ten Commandments,

23:38

right? No representations of God.

23:41

But it's God who sent Jesus

23:44

in the in the human form.

23:46

And to say that

23:48

nobody saw him in

23:50

that human form is actually

23:53

against what the text says. It says

23:55

that they did see and recognize Jesus.

23:58

So for us to have a representation

24:01

of him, yeah, it shouldn't

24:03

be blown out of proportion. But

24:05

we can say that about most things should not

24:07

be blown out of proportion. But

24:10

is it wrong to have a representation of

24:12

Jesus and the first, uh, his first

24:14

followers? Um, I would say

24:16

it might be wrong for you to say that

24:19

we absolutely can't.

24:21

Hmm. Okay. So and again we would see art

24:24

throughout history portraying those things.

24:26

So certainly that's the case. Um,

24:28

I want to we're going to take a

24:30

quick pause for just a second. I want to come back. I want

24:32

to talk some about the question, uh,

24:35

in and around, uh, the

24:37

Mormon question, because this has been something like,

24:39

if I Google right now and I typed

24:41

in is Dallas Jenkins, the first question

24:44

that comes up is, uh, is Mormon?

24:46

And so we're going to we're going to talk

24:48

about that. Now, I've known Dallas Jenkins for years. You've

24:50

known Joel Jenkins for years. But it is a common question.

24:52

And there's a reason there's some there's

24:55

some connections and history that

24:57

will help us understand why that's the case.

24:59

And we'll talk some about that. So. So you want to stay

25:01

with us again. You're listening to Stats Are Live. My guest

25:03

is Doug Huffman, author of many books in

25:05

and around the New Testament, including two of them coming

25:07

out in 2024. When I encourage you

25:09

to grab a hold of those as well. If you

25:11

click through to add stats or live stats

25:14

or Live.com, you can actually click

25:16

through and find the bio

25:18

there. Uh, find Doug Huffman's bio there,

25:20

which also lists all his books and

25:22

all his resources. So when I encourage

25:24

you to stay with us, we're going to continue our conversation

25:26

about The chosen, which has become this

25:29

worldwide phenomenon.

25:31

And we'll talk some, too, about what it looks like

25:33

to translate this into so many different languages

25:35

and why they're doing all

25:37

these things as well. So stay with us. You're

25:39

listening to Setzer live here on Moody Radio. Moody

25:42

radio is a ministry of Moody Bible

25:44

Institute, and we're going to continue our conversation with

25:46

Doug Huffman, a New Testament scholar

25:48

and advisor to The Chosen and just. Okay,

26:07

we're back at Stats are live, but just a minute ago,

26:09

I kind of told you we were going to talk to you some about

26:12

Mormonism, or as now they prefer to

26:14

call latter day Saints and The chosen.

26:17

And I think it's an important conversation because

26:19

every time I, you

26:21

know, post something about the chosen

26:24

and, you know, I've watched it, I've

26:26

shared it with people, uh, someone will

26:28

say something, but it's Mormon or some, you

26:30

know, posted on social media, you know, they can't put it on social

26:32

media if it's not true. So

26:34

how do we address this? What does this

26:36

look like? Okay, so

26:38

so let's talk first about why this

26:40

matters. So Mormonism is a,

26:43

uh, distinct religion, separate from Christianity

26:45

has a different view of who

26:47

Jesus is used. We refer to Jesus.

26:49

But Jesus they describe is not the Jesus

26:51

of Scripture. Uh, and lots of

26:54

distinctions we could go through. This is not a show on

26:56

Mormonism. So but when

26:58

you read the New Testament, Mormons would read

27:00

the descriptions of the New Testament and,

27:03

uh, you know, just just as, as Christians

27:05

would and say this is what happened in the gospel.

27:07

So, uh, thus then being

27:10

drawn to a show that depicts

27:12

some of these gospel things would not

27:14

surprise us. Again, it's

27:16

it's who or maybe what

27:19

Jesus is, as there's never been

27:21

a time when God has not been God the Father,

27:23

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus

27:25

is not God the son is not a created being. But,

27:28

uh, again, we believe in the biblical teaching of

27:30

the Trinity, and more so,

27:32

uh, but there are there are some

27:34

connections here that

27:37

related to, well, you why don't you explain them? Because

27:39

it's not it's not just someone just made this up. There

27:41

are some connections here. So explain them

27:43

a little bit and then we'll talk about what it means for the

27:45

show.

27:46

Sure. Um, as a

27:48

television show, there's several

27:51

different, uh, studio production

27:53

companies and studios involved

27:56

in making the TV show

27:58

The Chosen. And one of

28:00

those studios you see at the beginning

28:02

of the credits is called Angel

28:04

Studios. Uh, Angel

28:06

Studios, uh, formerly was called vid

28:09

Angel. If you're into television

28:11

history, um, vid Angel

28:13

uh was famous for providing viewers

28:15

the opportunity to watch movies and TV

28:18

shows, uh, in a way that

28:20

allowed them to skip objectionable

28:22

content. Uh, it got rid of it

28:24

bleeped out.

28:25

The bad stuff is what it did. Yeah. So. And yeah,

28:27

and a lot of us, a lot of us had it. And then there was a lawsuit.

28:29

It's still back now, but but people don't

28:31

realize that vid Angel became the production.

28:34

Well, can you keep going? Yeah.

28:35

So, um, you know that wonderful

28:38

family oriented service,

28:40

um, they became Angel Studios

28:43

and wanted to back,

28:46

uh, original shows. And,

28:48

uh, The Chosen was one of those shows.

28:51

Um, the Angel Studios is owned

28:53

and operated by people who come from

28:55

a latter day Saints, uh, backgrounds.

28:57

Um, as you mentioned, uh, formerly we

28:59

knew them as Mormons. Um,

29:02

but the company, as far as

29:04

I know, is not owned by The Church

29:06

of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. It's just

29:08

owned and operated by people of that particular

29:11

faith. Uh, and it's one of

29:13

the professional production companies associated

29:15

with the chosen. Uh, I mean, they use,

29:18

you know, craft services that are owned

29:20

and operated by, uh, non-Christians

29:22

and, you know, travel services, and they rent

29:24

cameras from other, uh, non-Christians.

29:27

You know, it's in the TV

29:29

business. They're doing business with

29:32

lots of, uh, of people

29:34

from different faith backgrounds. Um,

29:36

they they, you know, when Dallas

29:38

flies, he flies on American Airlines

29:41

or Delta or Southwest. Whether or

29:43

not those companies are owned by Christians doesn't

29:45

really matter. They're looking for the profession

29:47

that's, uh, being needed,

29:50

not the profession of faith. Well, for the.

29:51

Record, Alaska Airlines is owned by Christian.

29:53

So you could fly Alaska Airlines.

29:55

You could if they flew to all the places

29:57

you wanted to go. Yeah.

29:59

That's true. That's I'm just saying you can only drink milk from

30:01

a Christian cow, too. But but it is an important and

30:04

and and the way you described, you know,

30:06

you talked about using non-Christian things and

30:08

Mormons as latter day Saints people. Now,

30:10

just in the last few years, I've started using the word

30:12

Christian to describe and define themselves, which

30:15

I don't think it's helpful. I think the historic view where

30:17

they saw themselves as something distinct

30:19

and different, uh, made it more clear

30:21

that Mormonism isn't Christianity and Christianity

30:23

isn't Mormonism, but the connection

30:26

to that company is sort of stuck around. So

30:28

are there Mormon influences

30:31

in the script and the resources

30:33

that are there? You're consultant to that. Do

30:35

you have you ever seen that? Do you discuss

30:37

those things?

30:38

Um, you know, I think it is

30:40

informative, um, that

30:43

The chosen has three script consultants,

30:45

uh, a Roman Catholic priests, a messianic Jewish

30:48

rabbi and an evangelical New Testament scholar.

30:50

Uh, we're consultants,

30:53

um, uh, and we're all from historic

30:55

Christianity. There's no

30:57

latter day Saints script consultants

30:59

that, uh, that I'm aware of. So

31:02

there are people from a

31:05

mormon background. LDS faith

31:07

that work for the company.

31:10

Um, like I said, but it's it's a

31:12

TV company, and they.

31:14

Write it's not a distinctly religious company.

31:16

It's a production company. Yeah.

31:17

So yeah, it's it's not advisors.

31:19

Right. So the advisors are all from,

31:22

uh, the kind of the grand great tradition, historic

31:24

Christian traditions, uh, Dallas

31:26

Evangelical as well.

31:28

There was this one place that got all the attention

31:30

when, when, when Jesus said,

31:32

I am the law and the prophets

31:34

and which is, uh, you know, pointed to

31:37

some people, pointed to, uh, this connection

31:39

to something similar in a mormon, uh, scriptural

31:41

text. Um, but to me, it seemed like that

31:43

just be a normal thing that, I mean, that's

31:46

pretty common. So I'm sure you remember

31:48

that. Did you talk about that in any of your roundtables?

31:50

Oh, yeah. That, um, that blew

31:52

up, uh, in the,

31:56

uh, in the trailers for season

31:58

three, which interesting to me

32:00

is when the actual episode came out

32:02

and people saw it in context,

32:05

the controversy went away.

32:07

It did? Yeah. I actually have

32:09

the Book of Mormon on my shelf here at

32:12

home, and I.

32:13

You're going to start a rumor with this. I really, really

32:15

wish you said that live on radio.

32:16

But I

32:19

have.

32:19

To say, we have we have we have our neighbors.

32:22

We have lovely Mormon neighbors as

32:24

well. Again, I just but I also have lovely,

32:26

uh, secular neighbors. I have lovely Muslim

32:28

neighbors. I want all people to know the

32:30

true Jesus of the Bible. Anyway, you have you have Book of Mormon

32:33

there you were saying. Yeah.

32:34

So I looked up the passage in question, and

32:36

I read the the passage in

32:38

third Nephi. Um, and

32:41

I thought, wow, this is actually

32:44

very similar to what Paul says

32:46

in Romans chapter ten, uh,

32:49

that Jesus is the end

32:51

of the law, even in its

32:53

own context. In third Nephi.

32:56

Uh, what what the character

32:58

of Jesus in that particular episode

33:01

saying, I am the law of Moses, uh,

33:03

was not actually from

33:06

that passage in third Nephi,

33:08

and reading the passage in third Nephi

33:11

sounded a lot more like Paul in

33:13

Romans ten. I thought, yeah, this

33:15

is going to go away as soon as people

33:17

see this all in context. And sure enough,

33:19

it it's gone away.

33:20

So yeah, well, it's gone away

33:22

for that specific thing. But it's interesting

33:25

how and I wish people would

33:27

be at least aware. And having

33:29

been aware, be honest. You might dislike

33:32

the chosen. And, you know, I think, for example,

33:34

certain Presbyterians who have a view

33:36

of graven images, I totally get it.

33:38

But I think the consistency would be don't

33:41

also look at Leonardo da Vinci's, uh, The

33:43

Last Supper. But but I would say, let's

33:45

be let's be honest about what

33:47

the issues are. There are there are non-Christians,

33:50

uh, non-Christians of no religion, non-Christians of other

33:52

religions working in the company.

33:54

And that shows up sometimes. Uh,

33:57

and so but the content is this

33:59

what, what I hope we would debate and

34:01

talk through because it is a it

34:03

is a dramatic portrayal of

34:05

in between the biblical text. I think that's for

34:07

me what I, what I would like to see.

34:09

But it's 2024, and I don't know that people

34:11

do that as much in 2024,

34:14

uh, any anymore. So, um,

34:17

so, uh, the.

34:18

The, the Mormon controversy thing is not

34:20

going away anytime soon in

34:22

itself. That particular episode, yeah, that's

34:24

faded away. But even two days ago, I

34:26

got an email, um,

34:29

a text message asking about this.

34:31

And so I was responding,

34:34

uh, you know, my church is thinking about showing

34:36

this, you know, as a,

34:38

as an opportunity for our church members

34:40

to come together. But there's some pushback

34:43

because of the Mormon connection.

34:45

And, um, yeah,

34:48

I think the way

34:51

this is going is we'll

34:53

always have this conversation

34:55

as long as the Mormons keep liking

34:58

the show. Uh, as

35:00

long as the latter day Saints people are enjoying

35:02

it. Um, and I, I have,

35:05

uh, some Latter-Day Saints scholar

35:07

friends who enjoy talking

35:10

about the show. And I've

35:12

even seen in a secular,

35:15

scholarly setting, probably

35:18

the most evangelical sounding

35:20

portrayal of The chosen

35:22

coming from a latter day Saints scholar,

35:25

uh, which was fascinating to me because,

35:28

um, he, he was being more

35:30

bold about his faith in Jesus,

35:32

his particular kind of faith in Jesus.

35:35

Then, uh, I have seen some evangelical

35:37

scholars in those settings, uh,

35:39

regarding that faith. Yeah, there's

35:41

there's yeah, I might for us.

35:43

And my hope is and just so everyone understands what

35:46

when when you portray and,

35:48

you know, in this case add some some

35:50

speculative fiction to portray the

35:52

New Testament ad speculative fiction between

35:54

the places in the New Testament. Uh, Mormons

35:57

read and and really, anybody who reads

35:59

the New Testament would recognize the what's

36:01

going on in addition to some of the speculative fiction.

36:03

So my hope is for our Mormon friends that.

36:06

They would that they were latter day Saints friends,

36:08

that they would indeed watch

36:10

the chosen and keep reading. Keep reading.

36:13

Uh, read through the totality of the New Testament. Read

36:15

the passages like in the beginning was this John one

36:17

one, in the beginning was the word, and the word was

36:20

with God. The word was God. He was with God in the beginning to

36:22

see who that Jesus

36:24

of the Bible actually is.

36:26

So again, I'm for people, uh, digging

36:29

deeper and sort of understanding more

36:31

and taking those next steps as

36:33

well. So but I appreciate you're always going to have

36:35

some of those questions. I get it. It's

36:37

the world in which we live. And I've

36:40

got a couple more questions for Doug Huffman as well.

36:42

Doug Huffman is a New Testament scholar,

36:44

professor at the Talbot School of Theology

36:46

and written multiple books, including two

36:48

coming out this year. We'll link to all of them

36:51

over at Ed Setzer Live. We're going to continue

36:53

our conversation about The chosen.

36:55

We're going to demand to know when is it going to be

36:57

on our live streaming, and more into our conversation

37:00

in just a moment. Hey,

37:10

Rebecca, it says here live thanks to our team

37:12

working hard here, Karen Hendrie and our producer

37:15

Bob Moroz, our engineer. And

37:17

we're, we're pre-recording this show. So we're not taking

37:19

your calls today. Uh, and, and

37:21

I want to point out to you, uh, Doug Hoffman, of course,

37:23

our guests that that, you know, the

37:26

the Mormon question, like I said, we live on. But I was also

37:28

thinking that I'm actually not in my normal studio

37:30

in Southern California today. I'm actually

37:32

at a marriott hotel and, uh, which

37:34

is owned by people who are Mormons, and I'm

37:36

using their internet. So at what point the question

37:39

I have to ask is at what point is

37:41

is and I would say to you, Christians can

37:43

differ and disagree on some of

37:45

those things, but I think being accurate is is

37:47

being honest is always a good thing.

37:49

And uh, and I and I, you know, that would be Americanization

37:52

people who have questions as, as well.

37:54

Okay. So so here we are. You know,

37:56

we're you and I went to Midlothian,

37:59

Texas, to the to the filming

38:02

set of The Chosen. And we I think

38:04

we actually like, released video clips inside

38:06

the, the, uh, the set before we

38:08

were supposed to. And so people got to see if

38:10

they, if they follow on social media. Shame

38:13

on us. We but we did ask them but they

38:15

I think they afterwards said, oh, wait, are you doing

38:17

it inside the set. Yeah. We were um,

38:19

so but but here's um, so

38:21

right now though, like I used to watching

38:23

it on the app and yet we just

38:25

heard that the, the release of additional

38:27

free episodes, which again, I

38:29

need to explain why they're free. But first, because

38:32

that's a key part of what we're talking about here is why

38:34

are we not able to see this? Why is this another?

38:36

Have we been scammed? Have we been tricked? What's

38:38

going on here? Doug Huffman, where are

38:40

my episodes?

38:42

Yeah.

38:43

Well, um.

38:44

Lionsgate, um, film

38:47

distribution company has seen

38:49

to it that season four of

38:51

the show was released in theaters

38:53

these last couple of months. So

38:55

basically, there's, uh, eight episodes

38:58

to season four. Uh, season

39:01

four, episodes 1 to 3

39:03

were shown as one movie in

39:05

the theaters, then episodes four,

39:07

five, and six as a movie, and then

39:09

episode seven and eight as a movie in

39:11

theaters. People that wanted to see

39:14

them could pay the theater price

39:16

and go see those on the huge screen.

39:19

Um, and the chosen was saying,

39:21

but of course, as always, we'll

39:24

release, uh, season four

39:26

on the chosen app,

39:28

uh, for free later in

39:30

March. Um, that's

39:32

been the goal. Unfortunately,

39:35

there was some legal snafu of some

39:37

kind that needs to be solved

39:39

before they can

39:42

release the show for free

39:44

on the app. I don't know all the details

39:47

of what's the legal

39:49

snafu was, but they're trying

39:51

to solve that. Even, uh,

39:53

ten days ago, they were meeting, um,

39:56

to solve that issue.

39:58

Um, and hopefully that'll happen shortly.

40:01

Dallas Jenkins, the

40:03

creator, director, writer,

40:05

uh, he is insisting

40:08

that the chosen will always

40:10

be available for free, always and

40:12

forever. But he notes

40:14

that free costs a lot.

40:17

So, uh, he needs to

40:19

raise the funds to make sure that

40:21

he can pay the professional cast and crew

40:23

and all of that sort of stuff. Um,

40:26

but he always wants it to be

40:28

for free, uh, on the app and streaming

40:30

services.

40:31

Yeah. So. So stay tuned. Like

40:33

give. Yeah. But I want to give you business advice, but

40:35

I'll give you a little bit of advice, right. Because you're a consultant

40:38

with them. And I guess I could text Dallas, but

40:40

you know if you do it free it doesn't

40:42

work. You gotta you gotta pay the bills.

40:45

So how like like,

40:47

I mean, those actors, they are getting paid

40:49

and those those, uh, camera crews, and so.

40:52

So how is it working? And maybe

40:54

explain a little bit about the longer term strategy.

40:57

Well, um, they started out

40:59

by, uh, crowdfunding,

41:02

um, when, when they were first

41:04

considering doing this, uh,

41:06

TV show and this was, uh,

41:08

just a brief time ago, just six years ago,

41:11

Dallas was on the media, uh,

41:13

staff at his church in the Chicagoland

41:16

area. In fact, I think it was a church that you were involved

41:18

with. Ed. Um, and

41:20

in the Christmas season of 2017,

41:23

he put together a little imaginative, uh,

41:25

Christmas special called the Shepherd.

41:28

Uh, what might it have been like for a Shepard

41:30

to be visited by angels on that first Christmas?

41:32

And it was a little ten minute short. It filmed

41:34

in a farm in rural

41:36

Illinois. And,

41:38

um, after everybody enjoyed it at Christmas

41:41

and after the Christmas season was over, he thought,

41:43

well, I might as well just put it out on social media

41:45

and see what happens. And it went viral.

41:47

And that's when the idea was proposed

41:49

that they turn this imaginative,

41:53

um, historical fiction, uh,

41:55

motif of telling stories

41:57

and tell the story of Jesus in that

41:59

same way. Can you turn that into

42:01

a TV show in Dallas? His response,

42:03

of course, was, well, it takes money to run

42:05

a TV show, and I don't have that kind of money.

42:08

So they decided to do crowdfunding.

42:11

Crowdfunding is where you take little bits of money

42:13

from a big number of people,

42:15

and they all own a piece of

42:17

the show. So there's, you know,

42:19

these several thousand people that

42:22

pitched in their money for that first season

42:24

that are all owners,

42:26

if you will. Uh, in,

42:28

in the chosen, um, they

42:31

actually broke a crowdfunding record.

42:33

Um, the the record was held

42:35

by Mystery Science Theater

42:37

3000. Uh, that

42:39

little TV company had raised

42:41

five points, a little over 5.7

42:44

million. And the chosen,

42:46

uh, they were shocked. They they

42:48

got 10.2 million, almost

42:50

double the record. So that's

42:52

how the first season was funded.

42:55

Um, and since then, they have

42:57

allowed people to continue to donate

43:00

money. A different kind of crowdfunding

43:03

where rather than ownership, you get

43:05

opportunities. So

43:07

the feeding of the 5000, the huge

43:09

crowd of extras were people that had

43:11

donated money to the show. And they that

43:13

was.

43:14

Such a crazy thing. That was so crazy.

43:16

All the extras there are the people who are the donors. But what

43:18

a cool idea.

43:19

Yeah. And, uh, and then, uh,

43:21

a couple of years ago, um, one

43:24

of the board members from Biola University where

43:26

you and I work, um, he

43:29

decided I'm going to start a foundation,

43:31

a not for profit foundation.

43:34

And our one beneficiary

43:37

of our foundation is going to be the chosen,

43:39

the TV show. And so

43:41

the Common Sea Foundation is

43:43

raising money now to help,

43:46

um, complete the TV

43:48

show. The goal is to have seven seasons

43:51

to tell the the whole story of the Gospels.

43:55

Um, and in addition

43:57

to completing the, the seven

43:59

Seasons, uh, the Come and

44:01

See Foundation is trying to get it translated,

44:04

either actual dubbing of

44:07

voices by voice actors

44:09

and or with subtitles in.

44:12

No kidding, 600 languages.

44:14

That's so crazy. Yeah, yeah.

44:16

Yeah, yeah. And there are there. More

44:18

than you know, depending who you count there. You know,

44:20

there are thousands of languages, and it depends on

44:22

how you count sub language. You know what dialects

44:24

are. But but if you get 600 languages

44:27

you get almost everybody. If

44:29

you get ten languages, you get the vast majority of

44:31

people in the world because people speak, you

44:33

know, they might speak Mandarin and

44:35

their local dialect. There might be, you know, the local

44:37

language and English, but 600

44:39

is in the heart, languages of the vast

44:41

majority of people in the world.

44:44

And to make it forever free.

44:46

So that's, that's um, that's some

44:48

big goals that are, that are really

44:51

and I'm looking at the website right now, the website's

44:53

called uh, come and see

44:55

and we'll, we'll link it there as well. And you can find

44:57

out more information that's listed there.

44:59

So we got we got about a minute left.

45:01

And so what do you hope Doug

45:04

Huffman people will see and experience

45:06

when they watch The Chosen?

45:08

Well, um.

45:09

Perhaps the main goal of The Chosen

45:11

is to get more and more people

45:13

interested in the real

45:15

Jesus of the Bible and to get them

45:18

to rethink their beliefs

45:20

so that they go to the Bible

45:22

and see if their beliefs

45:24

in Jesus are really correct.

45:26

And they measure themselves by the Bible,

45:29

not by the TV show, but by the Bible.

45:31

Uh, and if the Lord uses this popular

45:34

TV show to get more people into

45:36

his word and to find Jesus,

45:38

I think that would be a really good thing.

45:41

And that is the passion of Doug Huffman, who

45:43

serves as a professor of New Testament at

45:45

Biola University of Talbot School of Theology

45:47

of Biola University. And I want you to know that,

45:49

Doug, it's very gracious of you to talk about the

45:51

chosen all the time and to do it with me,

45:53

your your dean and your friend. But,

45:56

uh, but because I know you are a New Testament

45:58

scholar and you are your contributing editor

46:00

of such books as God Under Fire Modern Scholarship

46:02

Reinvents God. How then, should we choose

46:04

three views of God's will, decision making, all kinds

46:06

of stuff, and coming soon again.

46:08

You can pre-order these if you go to editor, stats or Live.com.

46:11

Um, understanding the New Testament use

46:13

of the Old Testament, which I will tell you, has been

46:15

a question that people have had for 2000 years.

46:17

How do these New Testament writers do

46:19

this? And then also the story

46:21

of Jesus continues a survey of the

46:23

acts of the apostles, which are teaching right now.

46:25

And people can go actually to

46:28

Biola University and the Talbot School of Theology

46:30

and take courses on these things with

46:32

you online. You only have to relocate in some cases

46:34

as well. So thanks for taking the time to listen

46:36

to Ed's that's alive. As I mentioned, we were pre-recorded so

46:38

we couldn't take your calls, but we'll be back to your calls next

46:41

week and let me encourage you in the meantime.

46:43

That reminds you, Ed steps are live as a production

46:45

of the radio. It's a ministry of

46:47

Moody Bible Institute. We're thankful for your listening.

46:50

God bless you. We'll see you next Saturday.