Episode Transcript
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0:08
So this is Advertiser Live, and
0:10
I'm Ed Setser. I'm the dean of the Talbot School
0:12
of Theology have Biola University.
0:15
Today's show is actually pre-recorded. So it
0:17
is probably ironically called at Stitcher Live.
0:19
But nevertheless, that's where we are.
0:21
And so. Well, we have a pretty exciting
0:23
conversation today that you're going to find
0:25
interesting. And we're going to lean in on some questions
0:28
that people have and more. Our guest
0:30
today is Doug Huffman. He's a doctor.
0:32
Doug Huffman serves as the professor of
0:34
New Testament and dean of academic
0:36
programs for the Talbot School of Theology at
0:38
Bill University. So, yes, he's my colleague. He's
0:41
the author of several books, currently serves as
0:43
consultant for The Chosen, and he's a
0:45
pastor, licensed and ordained minister in the
0:47
Evangelical Free Church of the America
0:49
of America. Now, Doug, we are going
0:51
to talk some about The Chosen.
0:53
But I do sometimes like wonder if like
0:55
if you're just this guy teaching New Testament
0:58
and loving Jesus and all of a sudden
1:00
everybody wants to talk about the chosen. You've
1:02
written lots of things,
1:04
uh, really, really helpful resources, including
1:06
a couple of books coming out in 2020 for understanding
1:09
the New Testament use of the Old Testament,
1:11
which I must tell you, the government I have questions
1:13
about. Can't wait for that. Also, the story
1:16
of Jesus continues a survey of
1:18
the acts of the apostles from Zonda and Academic.
1:20
But you also written lots of other resources.
1:22
We're going to go. If everyone goes to Ed Stats or Live.com,
1:25
you can find a link to all of Doug's
1:27
books, because he is a serious
1:29
and significant New Testament scholar,
1:32
and might add a key part
1:34
of the team here at the Talbot School
1:36
of Theology. So, um, we
1:38
are going to talk some about The Chosen, but I'm going to
1:40
throw a couple of questions, New Testament ish
1:42
around there, because I know that
1:44
you are a scholar
1:46
in the New Testament. So matter of fact, it tells you, I
1:48
mean, how what do you teach now at Talbot? What
1:51
do you teach now?
1:52
Well, due to my. Good morning. Great
1:54
to be with you. Um, due to my,
1:56
um, administrative duties, I
1:59
really only teach 1 or 2 classes
2:01
each semester. Right now, I've been teaching the
2:03
Book of Acts, which folds
2:05
into that forthcoming Acts
2:07
survey book. Uh, and then I'm,
2:09
uh, because of my responsibilities
2:12
with the chosen as a script consultant,
2:14
the film school at Biola has asked
2:16
me to team teach the
2:18
faith and film class. So those are
2:21
the classes that I'm currently involved with.
2:23
Well that's fun. We have a crazy, crazy,
2:26
um, film program here. The variety magazine
2:28
recently listed the top ten film schools
2:31
in the US, and Biola University is right there,
2:33
right here in Los Angeles County, and building
2:35
a new building and lots of good things going on
2:37
in film. So I love that you're there. Okay.
2:39
But it's actually your New Testament ish
2:41
work that got you engaged at The Chosen.
2:44
And it wasn't just because, you know, The chosen
2:46
is about, you know, Jesus and the New Testament, but
2:48
you had some connection with. Well, you tell us the connection
2:50
with the leaders here.
2:52
Yeah. Well, um, 30
2:54
years ago, when I first started
2:57
out teaching at a small school in
2:59
Minnesota, uh, Dallas Jenkins
3:01
was one of my students. Um,
3:04
in fact, I was teaching a Christian
3:06
thought course, and
3:08
he was in that particular class.
3:10
We engaged in discussion about how
3:12
Christians can influence the culture.
3:14
He was very interested in film back
3:17
then and obviously still now. Uh,
3:19
so it started a long friendship.
3:22
Um, his wife, Amanda, was one
3:24
of my students as well. Um, so
3:27
we've seen them and their romance
3:29
develop, and now they've been married for over 25
3:32
years for kids. Um, yeah.
3:34
So I've got a long connection with Dallas.
3:36
Uh, and so it was an easy ask for him
3:38
and an easy for me when he
3:40
was thinking about doing this show.
3:43
Yeah. And he, uh, he's been on the program. We'll
3:45
link to his past, uh, his
3:47
past interview as well. We talked a lot about, well, maybe
3:49
some of the things we'll talk about here, but also some
3:51
things that are different. For those of you who don't know, Dallas Jenkins
3:53
is, uh, film and television
3:56
director, writer and film producer and,
3:58
of course, best known for The Chosen, though I got to say,
4:00
I like The Resurrection of Gavin Stone, which
4:02
he talks about his greatest failure. Uh, but
4:04
and that led him into this chosen. But I like that movie.
4:06
I thought it was fun, but what do I know?
4:08
All right, so, um, so so then you
4:11
serve as a consultant
4:13
on the script. It's not just you tell us
4:15
about the group and what you do.
4:17
Yeah. He has asked, uh, three
4:19
of us, uh, to be consultants.
4:22
Uh, looking at the scripts, there's, uh,
4:24
Father David Guffey, a Roman Catholic
4:26
priest, um, a
4:29
messianic Jewish rabbi. Joseph,
4:31
uh, um, uh, Jason
4:34
Sobel and then myself,
4:36
an evangelical, uh, scholar.
4:38
Yes. It sounds like a joke. A priest,
4:41
a scholar, and a rabbi enter a TV
4:43
studio. Um, but,
4:46
uh, we get the scripts, um,
4:48
we read through them individually
4:50
and send back our feedback, and they
4:52
take those pieces of feedback
4:55
and to adjust the
4:57
script before filming. And
4:59
then after filming, they bring the three
5:01
of us back together to,
5:03
uh, discuss the episodes and
5:05
the significant things going on inside
5:08
the show. Uh, and Dallas is humble
5:10
enough to say, okay, what did I do?
5:12
Uh, incorrectly. Uh, what did I get right?
5:14
What did I get wrong? Um, and there are
5:16
great, um, uh, conversations
5:19
around the table. And those
5:21
roundtable discussions are available on
5:23
the app so people can watch. Yeah, they can go to.
5:25
The shows, an app, and and you can actually
5:27
watch your discussions. And
5:29
they're kind of they're pretty interesting to me because, you know,
5:31
I'm a theology nerd, but a lot of our listeners
5:33
will will be in that space as well.
5:36
Um, because, I mean, so what we should say,
5:38
I guess, that if we find anything we disagree
5:40
with in the chosen, we should email you directly and
5:42
let you know of our disagreements. Is that correct?
5:45
No, no, there are many people that do
5:47
that actually. Yes.
5:49
Yeah, I imagine I imagine that there are. Well,
5:51
because here's where the here's what the challenge is, is you are
5:54
you are um, you are adding,
5:57
uh, context or more information or
5:59
speculative fiction between
6:02
something that we as Christians believe. Well, we
6:04
at Talbert believe is the inerrant word of God.
6:06
And so tell us why it's
6:08
it's a good thing to you because obviously
6:10
you're participating. To add what is
6:12
speculative fiction between
6:15
something so sacred as
6:17
the word of God? Talk to us about that.
6:19
Yeah. Um, I tell people
6:21
maybe this is a blinding glimpse
6:23
of the obvious. Um, but
6:26
that's chosen is not
6:28
the Bible. The chosen is
6:30
a TV show. And,
6:33
uh, people are saying, you know, well, you're adding
6:35
to the Bible and it's like, um, no,
6:38
we're not intending to
6:40
have you print out the scripts for the
6:42
show and make it book number 67 in
6:44
your Bible. That's not the goal
6:47
of the Chosen. Um,
6:49
recently I've found myself comparing
6:51
the chosen to lead
6:53
in our davinci's, uh, famous painting
6:56
The Last Supper. And
6:58
people really like that work of art.
7:00
Um. And they look at
7:02
it and say, oh, look, there's John sitting
7:05
next to Jesus, just like he's described
7:07
in the Gospel of John. And oh, there's
7:09
Judas with the money bag, just like the
7:11
Bible describes him as being the person
7:14
who was in charge of the finances for
7:16
the disciples. And so they find all
7:18
these biblical connections in that work
7:20
of art, and they rejoice in that.
7:22
But then they stand back and they look and go, huh?
7:25
I didn't know that the Last Supper was held
7:27
in a, um, in
7:29
an upper room that had,
7:32
you know, medieval architecture
7:34
and really the the table
7:36
was set up on Sawhorses and
7:38
they all sat on one side of the table.
7:41
And so then they begin to critique the work
7:43
of art and they say, well, it
7:45
looks like Leonardo's, uh,
7:47
representation of these biblical
7:49
themes has added to
7:51
the Bible. But again, it's
7:53
a work of art. It's not the Bible. Nobody thinks
7:56
that that painting should be printed out and
7:58
stuck as book number 67, in the back of
8:00
their Bibles. You shouldn't do
8:02
that with the chosen either. So
8:04
what they're trying to do, the
8:07
writers are trying to add plausible
8:09
backstory. They're trying to
8:11
move from the written page of Scripture
8:14
to an audio visual
8:16
work of art, and you can't get around
8:19
filling in the details. Does
8:21
that make sense?
8:22
It does, it does. I think it would be
8:24
consistent if somebody were to
8:26
object to the chosen, that they would also object
8:29
to, uh, Leonardo's Last
8:31
Supper. I would also point out to you that Leonardo's
8:33
Last Supper, uh, launched a thousand
8:35
conspiracy theories with that extra hand and that
8:37
knife that's over there and the V-shape in the middle
8:39
and and so, so,
8:41
so but so maybe your example also
8:44
kind of leads to I mean, it does this
8:46
kind of stuff riles people up. And I think
8:48
one of the reasons it riles people up, one of
8:50
the reasons is you're kind of,
8:52
um, you kind of messing with stuff
8:54
that maybe they think is better
8:56
not portrayed, whether it's
8:58
in Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper.
9:01
And there are some people, you know, particularly maybe
9:03
people on the more reform side who hold
9:05
a theological view of about
9:07
images. You shouldn't have any image that's
9:10
there. Um, but I guess what you're
9:12
saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, is that it?
9:14
Consistency would really make
9:16
the difference, is that you're just gonna have to be consistent
9:19
about how you hold these images.
9:21
Sure. And again,
9:24
you know, I remind people
9:26
maybe with a little too much fun, right?
9:28
If if you find the
9:31
chosen offensive as a TV
9:33
show, you know, you don't have to watch
9:35
it. And if you get more spiritual
9:37
fulfillment by watching the news
9:40
or some other sitcom,
9:42
then you know that's your choice,
9:45
but that it's
9:47
not at all the intention of the chosen
9:49
to, um, unnecessarily
9:52
offend our sensitivities. In fact,
9:54
if people make a good
9:56
observation about the
9:59
very first episode of The Chosen,
10:01
it actually puts a disclaimer on
10:03
the screen that says, you know,
10:06
it's based on the true stories of
10:08
the gospels of Jesus Christ. Back
10:10
stories and characters and dialogue
10:13
have been added. We're encouraging
10:15
you to read the Gospels.
10:18
As they say, the book is always better
10:20
than the movie, right? So
10:22
that and I tell Dallas,
10:25
uh, when we get these,
10:27
um, uh, pieces of hate mail,
10:29
um, I said, you
10:32
should actually look at the good side of that. People are
10:34
going and reading their Bibles and they're saying, hey,
10:36
that piece of the chosen is not
10:38
in the Bible. Good for you for noticing. We
10:40
want you to read the Bible. Don't have
10:42
your devotions with the TV show. So.
10:45
Yeah. It's good. I think ultimately one
10:48
of the things I'm going to ask and we're going to we're going to take
10:50
a pause for just a second. But one of the things I want to ask
10:52
is, why do you think it's become so just
10:54
insanely popular?
10:56
Um, I mean, people all around the world and now with the,
10:59
uh, with this foundation coming alongside to try
11:01
to translate into all these languages and millions
11:03
and hundreds of millions of people and more.
11:05
So we're gonna continue our conversation with Doug Huffman,
11:07
who's a New Testament scholar, that one of
11:09
the many things he does, he does great leadership
11:12
at Catholic school theology teaches New Testament
11:14
as well, but he also is a consultant with
11:16
The Chosen. We're going to continue our conversation with
11:18
him.
11:19
And just a moment.
11:37
Hey, we're back in Stetson live. I'm editor
11:39
Stetson, your host of this. And every Saturday at this time, my
11:41
guest today is a
11:43
friend, a colleague. We worked together there at the Talbot
11:45
School of Theology, Doug Huffman's
11:48
name. He's a professor of New Testament, and
11:50
he leads our academic programs there as well.
11:52
He's got a really a wonderful
11:54
array of books, including two new books coming
11:56
out as well, some some
11:59
much more technical as well. For example, he's written a book
12:01
called Verbal Aspect Theory and the prohibitions
12:03
in the Greek New Testament. So that's quite
12:05
a party. Uh, on the other hand, a little less
12:08
heavy as things like the Handy Guide for New Testament
12:10
Greek, new books coming out, and more
12:12
so when I encourage you to to follow the
12:14
links that are live and pick up some of
12:16
Doug's content as well.
12:18
He's, he's he's quite a thinker and and a
12:20
good brother. Okay. So we were talking about
12:22
the chosen, uh, you're serving as a consultant at
12:25
The Chosen. And there's,
12:27
um, one of my questions is just why
12:29
do you think it's so wildly
12:32
popular? I mean, I and I got to confess,
12:34
you know, I didn't watch it for a long time,
12:37
and then my wife was watching it.
12:39
She's all into it. And then,
12:41
uh, you know, I was like, I'm not, you know, Christian television,
12:43
Christian movies. It's just not they have not
12:45
won me over Doug Huffman. They have not won
12:47
me over. So finally, I'm talking to,
12:49
uh, Mark green, who's the guy from Hobby Lobby,
12:52
and he's and he asks, he just brings up the chosen.
12:54
I said, well, I haven't seen it. And he's like, you need to see
12:56
it. I'm going to send you DVDs. I'm like, I'm like,
12:58
who has DVD? Like, I don't even have a DVD player
13:00
anymore. But his point was, I'm not going
13:02
to let you have any excuse not to watch The Chosen.
13:04
And I watched it, and then I really ended
13:07
up binge watching it, which I guess
13:09
is something Dallas said from the beginning. He wanted a Christian,
13:11
a show about Jesus people could binge watch.
13:13
But why is it working? Doug Huffman.
13:18
Well, I'd like to, uh, I'd like
13:21
to answer that question maybe in a couple
13:23
of different ways. First, um,
13:25
why is it that faith based films
13:27
are often rather poor quality?
13:30
Uh, I would suggest that,
13:32
uh, there's several reasons for that. One of them is they
13:34
often just don't have the financial backing.
13:37
They can't, um, they can't hire
13:39
the best cast and crew members. They can't
13:41
rent the best equipment. They don't have access
13:43
to the best, uh, editing suites,
13:45
all of those things. But,
13:47
uh, a second reason I think faith
13:49
based films sometimes fail
13:52
is because they're so concerned
13:55
to explain the
13:57
story that it affects
13:59
the storytelling. They try to explain
14:01
the story inside the story,
14:04
and that falls flat. Even
14:06
Jesus told parables that
14:08
he didn't explain while he was
14:10
telling the parable. Um, and
14:13
I think The chosen
14:15
is focused on really good storytelling
14:18
and is not as concerned
14:20
with explaining the story inside
14:23
the story. Um, on the
14:25
chosen app, you have lots of tools
14:27
to explain the story. The Bible roundtables.
14:30
We analyze the story outside
14:32
of the story, but inside the story, they're
14:35
just focused on telling the really good
14:37
story. So I think that's one
14:39
of the things that makes The Chosen really,
14:42
um, inviting to audiences.
14:45
I think it's interesting, too. I think
14:47
that, um, the, the, the
14:50
resources that are available around
14:52
the chosen, I don't think it's, I mean, I don't
14:54
I know that most people aren't aware of those.
14:56
I mean, everyone sort of has some level awareness.
14:59
Probably most of our audience has, um, level awareness of the chosen, but
15:01
they don't know you're having, like theological discussions
15:03
and other resources around that. Just so I
15:05
encourage everyone to pick up the chosen app. I think
15:07
that would be helpful for you to do.
15:09
I'm interested. Like your particular role,
15:11
you're a New Testament scholar, and then there's
15:13
a Catholic priest and a
15:16
messianic rabbi. A messianic rabbi would
15:18
be a Christian follower of Jesus who's a rabbi. Um,
15:20
and so that's an that's an interesting mix
15:23
right there. I'm kind of wondering
15:25
what that what that's like and what
15:27
do those sessions sort of feel like and sound
15:29
like.
15:30
Yeah. Um, the three of us get along
15:32
really, really well, um,
15:34
even when we differ on
15:36
our Christian traditions.
15:38
Um, and you can see some of those differences
15:41
taking place in those roundtable discussions.
15:43
But we, uh, each of us brings sort of
15:46
our area of expertise to help
15:48
with the storytelling. So as
15:50
a New Testament scholar, I'm very,
15:52
um, oriented toward this, the
15:54
text of the New Testament, the Gospels
15:57
for the chosen, and the story of
15:59
Jesus. I'm also very interested
16:01
in the first century, um, historical
16:04
setting in the background. Dallas
16:06
will tell you that I'm the guy, the
16:08
consultant, who complains about,
16:11
um, the distance between cities.
16:13
And they sometimes they, um, they
16:15
have a plot
16:18
line in the story that a
16:20
person travels from this city to that city
16:22
and back again, and they, you know, they do it in a
16:24
matter of two days, and it's like, uh, yeah. Dallas,
16:27
that would take a week to do that trip.
16:29
And so I'm the guy that reminds
16:31
them of those sorts of things.
16:34
Um, unsurprisingly, um, uh,
16:37
Jason Sobel, our Jewish rabbi,
16:39
is very interested in the culture.
16:41
And so he's got lots of suggestions for
16:44
the show on the representation of Jewish
16:46
culture. And then, um, Father
16:49
David Guffey, he
16:51
brings a lot of church history and,
16:54
um, a sense of theological
16:56
import to the discussion
16:59
and how things are displayed
17:01
and the, um, potential
17:03
symbolic representations going
17:05
on in the show and the
17:08
ripple effect that that has for
17:10
the church today. So each
17:12
of us brings a little something to those,
17:14
um, analysis of the story.
17:18
Fascinating, fascinating. Of course, David Guffey,
17:20
he's been involved in eras of theater,
17:22
and more so that certainly
17:24
makes some sense there. But it does. It does
17:26
also kind of talk to like, what
17:29
kind of show is this,
17:31
uh, event? You know, Christian
17:33
Lee, you know, is this a. Yeah. Is this an
17:35
evangelical show? Is this a
17:38
is this a Christian show? And the
17:40
one question I want to ask after that to follow up
17:42
with it, where does Mormonism fit into
17:44
these conversations? Before we get to that, let's talk
17:46
some first about so how does
17:48
how does Dallas and how do you describe
17:51
this? Is this a Christian show?
17:53
Um, you know, the chosen
17:55
as a television company.
17:58
It's a limited liability. Uh,
18:00
corporation. So LLC,
18:02
uh, it's not a
18:04
ministry, much less a church.
18:07
It's not a business. Yeah, it's
18:09
a business. They're doing a TV show.
18:12
Um, I would describe it as,
18:14
um, a TV show with
18:16
a mission. It's not a mission in
18:19
itself, but he has
18:21
a mission for this TV show. And that mission
18:23
is to get the people to
18:26
read their Bibles, because
18:28
Jesus is an important figure
18:30
that they should be interacting with.
18:33
Um, so that is
18:35
a missionary goal,
18:37
I suppose you could say for this TV
18:39
show. Um, and Dallas,
18:42
as an evangelical Christian, is, you know,
18:44
pretty up front about his ministry
18:47
in in that sense, he
18:49
actually has that ministry inside the show
18:51
because as a regular old
18:53
TV show, he's got cast
18:55
and crew members that are not believers at all,
18:58
um, because they're just professional workers.
19:00
And so I pray for Dallas and his
19:02
ministry inside the show. Yeah,
19:04
I think that's important. Um,
19:07
the, um, one of the things,
19:10
I guess maybe the second big thing that
19:12
makes the show so popular with so
19:14
many viewers is
19:17
not just that it tells the story well,
19:19
but it tells the story in a
19:21
relatable fashion. Dallas
19:23
is desire to get people to read their
19:25
Bibles includes the desire
19:28
to get them to read their Bibles with
19:30
a proper imagination.
19:33
Um, we're 2000 years, you know,
19:35
approximately after the writing of the New Testament
19:37
and the original readers and
19:39
hearers of the New Testament itself,
19:41
they would have had the bright pictures
19:44
in their heads about what's being
19:46
described on the page. And
19:48
so the chosen is just a manner to,
19:50
uh, excite people's imagination
19:53
for them to read it correctly
19:55
rather than to have these flat
19:57
figures, uh, on the page
19:59
to remember. Oh, yeah, that's right. Peter
20:02
was a real person, and we
20:04
know from the New Testament that he was
20:06
married. Uh, the New Testament
20:08
actually doesn't mention his wife. It mentions his
20:10
mother in law. And usually
20:12
a spouse comes with a mother in law.
20:14
So what was it like for a married
20:16
person to be a follower of Jesus?
20:19
And the TV show tries
20:21
to portray a little bit of that.
20:23
And I think that's one of the
20:25
things that makes this show popular is viewers
20:28
go, oh, I'm a married person.
20:30
Oh. Uh oh. I, I've never
20:32
read about that passage
20:34
in the New Testament with that sense of imagination,
20:37
but maybe I should, um.
20:40
Uh, so I think that is what's drawing
20:42
people in rather than be overly
20:44
explanatory. The
20:46
show is trying to tell the story
20:49
with a proper sense of imagination,
20:51
and people are starting to see that, oh,
20:53
Jesus does apply to my
20:55
life as well.
20:57
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's
21:00
also I mean, that's the thing I think you're right.
21:02
One of the reasons it's so popular, it's also one of the reasons
21:04
why people, uh, maybe particularly
21:06
theologically driven people, um, sometimes
21:09
have concerns. I'll give you an example. So I, I think
21:11
I should say to you, I'm raising
21:13
these issues and, you know, that I've been watching
21:15
binge watched it and I've been a fan and we've
21:18
actually gone to the set together, uh, there
21:20
in, uh, Texas and filmed some content
21:22
there. We'll link that over at stats or Live.com.
21:25
Um, but at the same time, like when
21:27
I read the New Testament, now, having
21:29
watched The Chosen, uh, and
21:31
really having someone in my family who's
21:34
on the spectrum, on the autism spectrum, um,
21:36
like, it makes sense to me that Matthew
21:38
was on the spectrum and I feel like I'm spoiler
21:40
alerting people. But you find this out like in the first episode
21:42
or two. So. That's right. Um, um,
21:45
and and and so and I think it's
21:47
a powerful part of it because because I think also Dallas
21:49
has shared his own, uh, you know, uh,
21:51
autism spectrum diagnosis as well. So,
21:54
so you have here something
21:56
that I think is a powerful it's plausible.
21:59
It's powerful, it's impactful.
22:03
Yet now when I read the Bible, I
22:05
tend to I mean, I just know, like
22:07
I see when I'm reading Matthew,
22:09
I'm like, oh yeah, maybe he's maybe he would track that way.
22:11
And part of it is I'm carrying it over from what I saw in The Chosen.
22:13
So that's where I think people
22:16
worry that because the Bible doesn't
22:18
ever say that. And reading into
22:20
that is an extra biblical reading in that could
22:22
influence our reading of the biblical text.
22:24
So, I mean, how would you respond to that?
22:27
Well, um, you're right, the
22:29
Bible does not say that Matthew was
22:32
on the spectrum. Um, but notice
22:34
that it doesn't say he wasn't on the
22:36
spectrum. So, um, yeah.
22:39
Is that an incorrect,
22:42
uh, assumption, or is
22:44
it just an imaginative
22:46
way to look at the text
22:49
in a plausible manner? I
22:51
think we probably need to be a little bit more
22:53
honest. Those people that say
22:55
they actually have no picture
22:58
of Jesus in their head when they're
23:00
reading the Gospels, um,
23:02
I'm tempted to call them a liar.
23:05
Um, they've got some picture in their
23:07
head. Um, and I'm not
23:09
so sure that, um,
23:12
having a picture in their head is
23:14
is a is a good goal
23:16
to say I want to avoid that.
23:18
Um, uh, again, a
23:20
proper sense of imagination.
23:22
We we have a
23:25
positive respect for art.
23:28
Um, the Bible itself shows
23:30
that God's in favor of some
23:32
artistic representations. Indeed.
23:36
No, one of the Big Ten Commandments,
23:38
right? No representations of God.
23:41
But it's God who sent Jesus
23:44
in the in the human form.
23:46
And to say that
23:48
nobody saw him in
23:50
that human form is actually
23:53
against what the text says. It says
23:55
that they did see and recognize Jesus.
23:58
So for us to have a representation
24:01
of him, yeah, it shouldn't
24:03
be blown out of proportion. But
24:05
we could say that about most things should not
24:07
be blown out of proportion. But
24:10
is it wrong to have a representation of
24:12
Jesus and the first, uh, his first
24:14
followers? Um, I would say
24:16
it might be wrong for you to say that
24:19
we absolutely can't.
24:22
Hmm. Okay. So and again we would see art
24:24
throughout history portraying those things.
24:26
So certainly that's the case. Um,
24:28
I want to we're going to take a
24:30
quick pause for just a second. I want to come back. I want
24:32
to talk some about the question, uh,
24:35
in and around, uh, the
24:37
Mormon question, because this has been something like,
24:39
if I Google right now and I typed
24:41
in is Dallas Jenkins, the first question
24:43
that comes up is, uh, is Mormon?
24:46
And so we're going to we're going to talk
24:48
about that. Now, I've known Dallas Jenkins for years. You've
24:50
known Joseph Jenkins for years. But it is a common question.
24:52
And there's a reason there's some there's
24:55
some connections and history that
24:57
will help us understand why that's the case.
24:59
And we'll talk some about that. So. So you want to stay
25:01
with us again. You're listening to Stats Are Live. My guest
25:03
is Doug Huffman, author of many books in
25:05
and around the New Testament, including two of them coming
25:07
out in 2024. When I encourage you
25:09
to grab a hold of those as well. If you
25:11
click through to add stats or live stats
25:14
or Live.com, you can actually click
25:16
through and find the bio
25:18
there. Uh, find Doug Huffman's bio there,
25:20
which also lists all his books and
25:22
all his resources. So when I encourage you
25:24
to stay with us, we're going to continue our conversation about
25:27
The chosen, which has become this worldwide
25:30
phenomenon. And we'll talk some to you about
25:32
what it looks like to translate this into so many
25:34
different languages and why they're
25:37
doing all these things as well. So stay
25:39
with us. You're listening to Headsets Are Live here on
25:41
Moody Radio. Moody radio is a ministry
25:43
of Moody Bible Institute. And we're going to continue our
25:45
conversation with Doug Huffman, a
25:47
New Testament scholar and advisor to The Chosen, in.
25:49
Just a minute.
26:07
Okay. We're back. Stats are alive. But just a minute
26:09
ago, I kind of told you we're going to talk to you some
26:11
about Mormonism.
26:13
Or as now, they prefer to call latter day Saints
26:15
and the chosen. And
26:17
I think it's an important conversation because every time
26:20
I, you know, post something
26:22
about the chosen and,
26:24
you know, I've watched it, I've shared it with people.
26:27
Someone will say something, but it's Mormon
26:29
or some, you know, posted on social media, you know, they can't put
26:31
it on social media if it's not true. So
26:34
how do we address this? What does this
26:36
look like? Okay, so
26:38
so let's talk first about why this
26:40
matters. So Mormonism is a,
26:43
uh, distinct religion separate from Christianity.
26:45
It has a different view of who
26:47
Jesus is used. We refer to Jesus.
26:49
But the Jesus they describe is not the Jesus
26:51
of Scripture. Uh, and lots of
26:54
distinctions we could go through. This is not a show on
26:56
Mormonism. So but when
26:58
you read the New Testament, Mormons would read
27:00
the descriptions of the New Testament and,
27:03
uh, you know, just just as, as Christians
27:05
would and say, this is what happened in the gospel.
27:07
So, uh, thus then being
27:10
drawn to a show that depicts
27:12
some of these gospel things would not
27:14
surprise us. Again, it's it's
27:16
it's who or maybe what
27:19
Jesus is, as there's never been
27:21
a time when God has not been God the Father,
27:23
God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus
27:25
is not God the Son is not a created being. But,
27:28
uh, again, we believe in the biblical teaching
27:30
of the Trinity, and more so,
27:32
uh, but there are there are some
27:34
connections here that
27:37
related to, well, you why don't you explain them? Because
27:39
it's not it's not just someone just made this up. There
27:41
are some connections here. So explain them
27:43
a little bit, and then we'll talk about what it means for the
27:45
show.
27:46
Sure. As a
27:48
television show, there's several
27:51
different, uh, studio production
27:53
companies and studios involved
27:56
in making the TV show
27:58
The Chosen. And one of those
28:00
studios you see at the beginning of the
28:02
credits is called Angel
28:04
Studios. Uh, Angel
28:06
Studios, uh, formerly was called vid
28:09
Angel. If you're into television
28:11
history, um, vid Angel
28:13
was famous for providing viewers
28:15
the opportunity to watch movies and TV
28:18
shows, uh, in a way that
28:20
allowed them to skip objectionable
28:22
content. Uh, it got rid of it
28:24
bleeped out.
28:25
The bad stuff is what it did. Yeah. So. And yeah,
28:27
and a lot of us, a lot of us had it. And then there was a lawsuit.
28:29
It's still back now, but but people don't
28:31
realize that vid Angel became the production.
28:34
Well, you keep going.
28:35
Yeah. So, um, you
28:37
know, that wonderful family oriented
28:39
service, um, they became,
28:41
uh, Angel Studios and
28:44
wanted to back, uh, original
28:46
shows. And, uh, The
28:49
Chosen was one of those shows
28:51
that Angel Studios is owned and operated
28:53
by people who come from a latter day
28:55
Saints, uh, backgrounds. Um, as
28:58
you mentioned, uh, formerly we knew them
29:00
as Mormons. Um, but
29:02
the company, as far as I know,
29:04
is not owned by the church of Jesus
29:07
Christ of Latter day Saints. It's just owned and
29:09
operated by people of that particular
29:11
faith. Uh, and it's one of
29:13
the professional production companies associated
29:15
with the chosen. Uh, I mean, they use,
29:18
you know, craft services that are owned and
29:20
operated by, uh, non-Christians
29:22
and, you know, travel services, and they rent
29:24
cameras from other, uh, non-Christians.
29:27
You know, it's in the TV
29:29
business. They're doing business with
29:32
lots of, uh, of people
29:34
from different faith backgrounds. Um,
29:36
they fly, you know, when Dallas
29:38
flies, he flies on American Airlines
29:41
or Delta or Southwest. Whether or
29:43
not those companies are owned by Christians doesn't
29:45
really matter. They're looking for the profession
29:47
that's, uh, being needed,
29:50
not the profession of faith. Well, for.
29:51
The record, Alaska Airlines is owned by Christian.
29:53
So you could fly Alaska Airlines.
29:55
That you could if they flew to all the places
29:57
you wanted to go. Yeah.
29:59
That's true. That's I'm just saying you can only drink milk from
30:01
a Christian cow too. But but it is an important and
30:04
and and the way you described, you know,
30:06
you talked about using non-Christian things and
30:08
Mormons, latter day Saints people now,
30:10
just in the last few years have started using the word
30:12
Christian to describe and define themselves,
30:15
which I don't think it's helpful. I think the historic view
30:17
where they saw themselves as something distinct
30:19
and different, uh, made it more clear
30:21
that Mormonism is in Christianity and Christianity isn't
30:23
Mormonism, but the connection
30:26
to that company has sort of stuck around. So
30:28
are there Mormon influences
30:31
in the script and the resources
30:33
that are there? You're consultant to that. Do
30:35
you have you ever seen that? Do you discuss
30:37
those things?
30:38
Um, you know, I think it is
30:40
informative, um, that
30:43
The chosen has three script consultants,
30:45
uh, a Roman Catholic priests, a messianic Jewish
30:48
rabbi and an evangelical New Testament scholar.
30:51
Uh, we're consultants,
30:53
um, uh, and we're all from historic
30:55
Christianity. There's no latter
30:57
day Saints script consultants that,
31:00
uh, that I'm aware of. So
31:02
there are people from a.
31:05
Mormon background LDS faith
31:07
that work for the company.
31:10
Um, like I said, but it's it's a
31:12
TV company and they write.
31:14
It's not a distinctly religious company. It's
31:16
a production company.
31:17
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not advisors.
31:19
Right. So the advisors are all from,
31:22
uh, the kind of the grand great tradition, historic
31:24
Christian traditions. Uh, Dallas
31:26
Evangelical as well.
31:28
There was this one place that got all the attention
31:30
when, when, when Jesus said,
31:32
I am the law and the prophets
31:34
and which is, uh, you know, pointed to
31:37
some people, pointed to, uh, this connection
31:39
to something similar in a mormon, uh, scriptural
31:41
text. Um, but to me, it seemed like that
31:43
just be a normal thing that I mean, that's
31:46
pretty common. So I'm sure you remember
31:48
that. Did you talk about that in any of your roundtables?
31:50
Oh, yeah. That, um, that
31:52
blew up, uh, in
31:54
the, uh, in
31:56
the trailers for season three,
31:59
which interesting to me is when
32:01
the actual episode came out and people
32:03
saw it in context, the controversy
32:06
went away. It did? Yeah.
32:08
I actually have the Book of
32:10
Mormon on my shelf here at home,
32:12
and I you're.
32:13
Going to start a rumor with this. I really, really wish
32:15
you said that live on radio. But I
32:19
have to say, we have we have, we have, we have our neighbors.
32:22
We have lovely Mormon neighbors as
32:24
well. Again, I just but I also have lovely,
32:26
uh, secular neighbors. I have lovely Muslim
32:28
neighbors. I want all people to know the
32:30
true Jesus of the Bible. Anyway, you have you have a Book of Mormon
32:33
there you were saying?
32:33
Yeah. So I looked up the passage in question,
32:36
and I read the the passage
32:38
in third Nephi. Um, and
32:41
I thought, wow, this is actually
32:44
very similar to what Paul says
32:46
in Romans chapter ten, uh,
32:49
that Jesus is the end
32:51
of the law, even in its
32:53
own context in third Nephi.
32:56
Uh, what what the character
32:58
of Jesus in that particular episode
33:01
saying, I am the law of Moses, uh,
33:03
was not actually from
33:06
that passage in third Nephi,
33:08
and reading the passage in third Nephi
33:11
sounded a lot more like Paul in
33:13
Romans ten. I thought, yeah, this
33:15
is going to go away as soon as people
33:17
see this all in context. And sure enough,
33:19
it it's gone away.
33:20
So yeah, well, it's gone away
33:22
for that specific thing. But it's interesting
33:25
how and I wish people would
33:27
be at least aware. And having
33:29
been aware, be honest. You might dislike
33:32
the chosen. And, you know, I think, for example,
33:34
certain Presbyterians who have a view
33:36
of graven images, I totally get it.
33:38
But I think the consistency would be don't
33:41
also look at Leonardo da Vinci's The
33:43
Last Supper. But but I would say, let's
33:45
be let's be honest about what
33:47
the issues are. There are there are non-Christians,
33:50
uh, non-Christians of no religion, non-Christians of other
33:52
religions working in the company.
33:54
And that shows up sometimes. Uh,
33:57
and so but the content is this
33:59
what I hope we would debate and
34:01
talk through, because it is a it
34:03
is a dramatic portrayal of
34:05
in between the biblical text. I think that's for
34:07
me what I, what I would like to see.
34:09
But it's 2024 and I don't know that people
34:11
do that as much in 2024,
34:14
uh, any anymore. So, um,
34:17
so, uh, the.
34:18
The, the Mormon controversy thing is not
34:20
going away anytime soon in
34:22
itself. That particular episode, yeah, that's
34:24
faded away. But even two days ago, I
34:26
got an email, um,
34:29
a text message asking about this.
34:31
And so I was responding,
34:34
uh, you know, my church is thinking about
34:36
showing this, you know, as
34:38
a, as an opportunity for our church
34:40
members to come together. But there's some
34:42
pushback because of the Mormon
34:44
connection. And, um,
34:47
yeah, I think
34:50
the way this is going
34:52
is we'll always have this
34:54
conversation as long as the
34:56
Mormons keep liking the show.
34:59
Uh, as long as the latter day Saints people
35:01
are enjoying it. Um,
35:03
and I, I have, uh, some
35:06
latter day Saints scholar friends
35:08
who enjoy talking about
35:10
the show. And I've
35:12
even seen in a secular,
35:15
scholarly setting, probably
35:18
the most evangelical sounding
35:20
portrayal of The chosen
35:22
coming from a latter day Saints scholar,
35:25
uh, which was fascinating to me because,
35:28
um, he, he was being more
35:30
bold about his faith in Jesus,
35:32
his particular kind of faith in Jesus.
35:35
Then, uh, I have seen some evangelical
35:37
scholars in those settings, uh,
35:39
regarding that faith. Yeah, there's
35:41
there's yeah, I might for us.
35:43
And my hope is and just so everyone understands what
35:46
when when you portray and,
35:48
you know, in this case add some some
35:50
speculative fiction to portray the
35:52
New Testament ad speculative fiction between
35:54
the places in the New Testament. Uh, Mormons
35:57
read and and really, anybody who reads
35:59
the New Testament would recognize the what's
36:01
going on in addition to some of the speculative fiction.
36:03
So my hope is. For our Mormon friends that
36:06
they would, um, that they would. Latter day Saints
36:08
friends. That they would indeed watch
36:10
the chosen and keep reading. Keep reading.
36:13
Uh, read through the totality of the New Testament. Read
36:15
the passages like in the beginning was this John one
36:17
one, in the beginning was the word, and the word was
36:20
with God. The word was God. He was with God in the beginning. To
36:22
see who that Jesus
36:24
of the Bible actually is.
36:26
So again, I'm for people, uh, digging
36:29
deeper and sort of understanding more
36:31
and taking those next steps as
36:33
well. So but I appreciate you're always going to have
36:35
some of those questions. I get it. It's
36:37
the world in which we live. And I've
36:40
got a couple more questions for Doug Huffman as well.
36:42
Doug Huffman is a New Testament scholar,
36:44
professor at the Talbot School of Theology
36:46
and written multiple books, including two
36:48
coming out this year. We'll link to all of them
36:51
over at Ed Setzer Live. We're going to continue
36:53
our conversation about The chosen.
36:55
We're going to demand to know when is it going to be
36:57
on our live streaming and more in our conversation
37:00
in just a moment. Hey,
37:10
Rebecca, it says here live thanks to our team
37:12
working hard here, Karen Hendrie and our producer
37:15
Bob Moroz, our engineer. And
37:17
we're, we're pre-recording this show. So we're not taking
37:19
your calls today. Uh, and, and
37:21
I want to point out to you, uh, Doug Hoffman, of course,
37:23
our guests that that, you know, the
37:26
the Mormon question, like I said, we live on. But I was also thinking
37:28
that I'm actually not in my normal studio
37:30
in Southern California today. I'm actually at
37:33
a marriott hotel and, uh, which is owned
37:35
by people who are Mormons, and I'm using
37:37
their internet. So at what point the question I have
37:39
to ask is at what point is is
37:41
and I would say to you, Christians can differ
37:43
and disagree on some of those things,
37:45
but I think being accurate is is being
37:47
honest is always a good thing. And
37:50
uh, and I and I, you know, that would be Americanization people
37:52
who have questions as, as well.
37:54
Okay. So so here we are. You know,
37:56
we're you and I went to Midlothian,
37:59
Texas, to the to the filming
38:02
set of The Chosen. And we I think
38:04
we actually like, released video clips inside
38:06
the, the, uh, the set before we
38:08
were supposed to. And so people got to see if
38:10
they, if they follow on social media. Shame
38:13
on us. We but we did ask them but they
38:15
I think they afterwards said, oh, wait, are you doing
38:17
it inside the set. Yeah. We were um,
38:19
so but but here's um, so
38:21
right now though, like I used to watching
38:23
it on the app and yet we just
38:25
heard that the, the release of additional
38:27
free episodes, which again, I
38:29
need to explain why they're free. But first, it's all good
38:31
because that's a key part of what we're talking about here is
38:34
why are we not able to see this? Why is this another?
38:36
Have we been scammed? Have we been tricked? What's
38:38
going on here? Doug Huffman, where are
38:40
my episodes?
38:42
Yeah.
38:43
Well, um.
38:44
Lionsgate's, um, film
38:47
distribution company has seen
38:49
to it that season four of
38:51
the show was released in theaters
38:53
these last couple of months. So
38:55
basically, there's, uh, eight episodes
38:58
to season four. Uh, season
39:01
four, episodes 1 to 3 were
39:03
shown as one movie in the theaters,
39:06
then episodes four, five, and six
39:08
as a movie, and then episode seven
39:10
and eight as a movie in theaters. People
39:13
that wanted to see them could pay
39:15
the theater price and go see those
39:17
on the huge screen. Um,
39:19
and the chosen was saying,
39:21
but of course, as always, we'll
39:24
release, uh, season four
39:26
on the chosen app,
39:28
uh, for free later in
39:30
March. Um, that's
39:32
been the goal. Unfortunately,
39:35
there was some legal snafu of some
39:37
kind that needs to be solved
39:39
before they can
39:42
release the show for free
39:44
on the app. I don't know all the details
39:47
of what's the legal
39:49
snafu was, but they're trying
39:51
to solve that. Even, uh,
39:53
ten days ago, they were meeting, um,
39:56
to solve that issue.
39:58
Um, and hopefully that'll happen shortly.
40:01
Dallas Jenkins, the
40:03
creator, director, writer,
40:05
uh, he is insisting
40:08
that the chosen will always
40:10
be available for free, always and
40:12
forever. But he notes
40:14
that free costs a lot.
40:17
So, uh, he needs to
40:19
raise the funds to make sure that
40:21
he can pay the professional cast and crew
40:23
and all of that sort of stuff. Um,
40:26
but he always wants it to be
40:28
for free, uh, on the app and streaming
40:30
services.
40:31
Yeah. So. So stay tuned. Like
40:33
give. Yeah. But I want to give you business advice, but
40:35
I'll give you a little bit of advice, right. Because you're a consultant
40:38
with them. And I guess I could text Dallas, but
40:40
you know if you do it free it doesn't
40:42
work. You gotta you gotta pay the bills.
40:45
So how like like,
40:47
I mean, those actors, they are getting paid
40:49
and those those, uh, camera crews, and so.
40:52
So how is it working? And maybe
40:54
explain a little bit about the longer term strategy.
40:57
Well, um, they started out
40:59
by, uh, crowdfunding,
41:02
um, when, when they were first
41:04
considering doing this, uh,
41:06
TV show and this was, uh,
41:08
just a brief time ago, just six years ago,
41:11
Dallas was on the media, uh,
41:13
staff at his church in the Chicagoland
41:16
area. In fact, I think it was a church that you were involved
41:18
with. Ed. Um, and
41:20
in the Christmas season of 2017,
41:23
he put together a little imaginative, uh,
41:25
Christmas special called the Shepherd.
41:28
Uh, what might it have been like for a Shepard
41:30
to be visited by angels on that first Christmas?
41:32
And it was a little ten minute short filmed
41:34
in a farm in rural Illinois.
41:37
And, um, after everybody
41:40
enjoyed it at Christmas and after the Christmas season
41:42
was over, he thought, well, I might as well just put it out on
41:44
social media and see what happens. And it went
41:46
viral. And that's when the idea
41:49
was proposed that they turn this
41:51
imaginative, um,
41:53
historical fiction, uh, motif
41:56
of telling stories and tell
41:58
the story of Jesus in that same way.
42:00
Can you turn that into a TV show in Dallas?
42:02
His response, of course, was, well, it
42:05
takes money to run a TV show, and I don't have
42:07
that kind of money. So they decided
42:09
to do crowdfunding. Crowdfunding
42:11
is where you take little bits of money from a
42:14
big number of people, and they all
42:16
own a piece of the show. So
42:18
there's, you know, these several thousand
42:21
people that pitched in their
42:23
money for that first season that are all
42:25
owners, if you will. Uh,
42:28
in, in the chosen, um,
42:30
they actually broke a crowdfunding record.
42:33
Um, the the record was held
42:35
by Mystery Science Theater
42:37
3000. Uh, that
42:39
little TV company had raised
42:41
five point a little over 5.7
42:44
million. And the chosen,
42:46
uh, they were shocked. They they
42:48
got 10.2 million, almost
42:50
double the record. So that's
42:52
how the first season was funded.
42:55
Um, and since then, they have
42:57
allowed people to continue to donate
43:00
money, a different kind of crowdfunding
43:03
where rather than ownership, you get
43:05
opportunities. So
43:07
the feeding of the 5000, the huge
43:09
crowd of extras were people that had
43:11
donated money to the show. And they that
43:13
was.
43:14
Such a crazy thing. That was so crazy.
43:16
All the extras there are the people who are the donors. But what
43:18
a cool idea.
43:19
Yeah. And, uh, and then, uh,
43:21
a couple of years ago, um, one
43:24
of the board members from Biola University where
43:26
you and I work, um, he
43:29
decided I'm going to start a foundation,
43:31
a not for profit foundation.
43:34
And our one beneficiary
43:37
of our foundation is going to be The chosen,
43:39
the TV show. And so
43:41
the Common Sea Foundation is
43:43
raising money now to help,
43:46
um, complete the TV
43:48
show. The goal is to have seven seasons
43:51
to tell the the whole story of the Gospels.
43:55
Um, and in addition
43:57
to completing the the seven
43:59
Seasons, uh, the Come and
44:01
See Foundation is trying to get it translated,
44:04
either actual dubbing of
44:07
voices by voice actors
44:09
and or with subtitles in.
44:12
No kidding, 600 languages.
44:14
That's so crazy. Yeah, yeah yeah,
44:16
yeah.
44:17
And there are there. More than you know, depending
44:19
who you count there. You know, there are thousands of languages,
44:21
and it depends on how you count sub language. You
44:23
know what dialects are. But but
44:25
if you get 600 languages you get
44:27
almost everybody. If you get ten languages,
44:30
you get the vast majority of people in the world because
44:32
people speak, you know, they might speak
44:34
Mandarin and their local dialect. There might
44:36
be, you know, the local language and English,
44:38
but 600 is in the heart, languages
44:41
of the vast majority of people
44:43
in the world. And to make
44:45
it forever free. So that's, that's
44:47
um, that's some big goals that
44:49
are, that are really and I'm looking
44:51
at the website right now, the website's called,
44:53
uh, come and see and we'll
44:56
link it there as well. And you can find out more information
44:58
that's listed there. So we got we got about
45:01
a minute left. And so what do you
45:03
hope Doug Huffman people will
45:05
see and experience when they watch The Chosen?
45:08
Well, um.
45:09
Perhaps the main goal of The Chosen
45:11
is to get more and more people
45:13
interested in the real
45:15
Jesus of the Bible and to get them
45:18
to rethink their beliefs
45:20
so that they go to the Bible
45:22
and see if their beliefs
45:24
in Jesus are really correct.
45:26
And they measure themselves by the Bible,
45:29
not by the TV show, but by the Bible.
45:31
Uh, and if the Lord uses this popular
45:34
TV show to get more people into
45:36
his word and to find Jesus,
45:38
I think that would be a really good thing.
45:41
And that is the passion of Doug Huffman, who
45:43
serves as a professor of New Testament at
45:45
Biola University of Table, School of Theology
45:47
of Biola University. And I want you to know that,
45:49
Doug, it's very gracious of you to talk about the
45:51
chosen all the time and to do it with me,
45:53
your your dean and your friend. But,
45:56
uh, but because I know you are a New Testament scholar
45:58
and you are your contributing editor of such books
46:00
as God Under Fire Modern Scholarship Reinvents
46:02
God. How then, should we choose three views
46:04
of God's will, decision making, all kinds of stuff, and
46:07
coming soon again. You can pre-order
46:09
these if you go to editor, stats or Live.com. Um,
46:11
understanding the New Testament use of the Old Testament,
46:13
which I will tell you, has been a question that people
46:15
have had for 2000 years. How do these New Testament
46:18
writers do this? And then
46:20
also the story of Jesus continues
46:22
a survey of the acts of the apostles,
46:24
which are teaching right now. And people can go actually
46:27
to Biola University and the Talbot
46:29
School of Theology and take courses on
46:31
these things with you online. You don't have to relocate
46:33
in some cases as well. So thanks for taking
46:35
the time to listen to Ed's that's alive. As I mentioned, we were
46:38
pre-recorded so we couldn't take your calls, but we'll
46:40
be back to your calls next week and let me encourage
46:42
you in the meantime. That reminds you, Ed steps are live
46:44
as a production of the radio. It's a ministry
46:47
of Moody Bible Institute. We're thankful for
46:49
your listening.
46:50
God bless you. We'll see you next Saturday.
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