0:08

Well. Hey, this is editor Stats Alive. I'm Ed Setzer,

0:11

and we are, of course live every time

0:13

this every Saturday at this time, talking to

0:15

guests and taking your calls as well.

0:18

Um, I realized recently that I don't have the number

0:20

memorized, which really tells you that I do

0:22

not pay enough attention. So I'm trying to memorize the number

0:24

now. So it's (877) 548-3675.

0:28

But I know you want to know who we're going to talk to before you call

0:30

in. And so we'll get to that in just

0:33

a moment. But let me remind you that

0:35

you can also listen to this program as a podcast.

0:37

If you go to Stitcher Live.com,

0:39

you'll find there the links to download this as

0:42

describes a podcast, all the moody radio shows.

0:44

And of course, we're on Moody Radio partners and affiliates,

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over 200 outlets from coast to coast. Thankful

0:48

for our listeners. Uh, as well,

0:50

we try to bring you authors, often

0:52

authors, not only authors, but often authors, because

0:55

I think they they sometimes bring us new,

0:57

helpful ideas, maybe new and helpful ways

0:59

to think about things, and that it would be the case

1:02

of today. So AJ Swoboda

1:04

is going to be our guest today.

1:06

He's an associate professor of Bible

1:08

and theology at Bushnell University,

1:10

lead mentor for the Doctor of Ministry

1:12

program on Spiritual Formation and soul

1:14

here at Friends University. Uh,

1:17

that's Quakers, by the way. Kids, if you don't know what

1:19

friends University is and which is kind

1:21

of cool, maybe we'll talk about that. He's the author

1:23

of many books, including The Gift of Thorns After

1:26

Doubt, which we've logged a bit about, I think,

1:28

on the program and the award winning Subversive

1:30

Sabbath. He hosts Slow

1:32

Theology podcast with Ninja

1:35

Gupta, and he writes, he

1:37

widely read low level theologian

1:39

Substack. All that, by the way, all the books, his

1:41

bio, the Substack, Substack

1:44

podcast are all linked at editor. Stitcher

1:46

Live.com. So

1:49

super to have you on RJ and appreciate it.

1:51

You know, we're both on the West Coast and as we said before,

1:53

we came on the West Coast is the best coast. But

1:55

thanks for joining us here on Ed Stetson Live editor.

1:58

It's always a gift to get to talk

2:00

to you and thank you for the hard work that you do to serve the

2:02

church.

2:04

Oh, you're very, very kind. Well, let's talk about

2:06

hard work. You put hard work into this book

2:08

and then your publisher did

2:10

you wrong. Let me tell you why. Your publisher did you wrong. I

2:13

don't know, I think it's just funny. I think

2:15

it's funny. The title. So the title is.

2:17

I don't know if maybe your title

2:19

was How to Live Your Best Life.

2:21

You might sell more books than if the title

2:23

was The Gift of Thorns.

2:25

Again, the full title of the book is The Gift of Thorns

2:28

Jesus, the flesh, and

2:30

the War for Our Wants. And yet I think

2:32

most of the books about desire. So we'll

2:34

talk about that. But let's start with the

2:36

the thorns, because, I mean, even as I, as

2:39

I kind of engage your book, I was kind of surprised at

2:41

how, how, how much of

2:43

a theme that is in, I guess. And that's

2:45

one of the things I like is when books sort of like surprise me.

2:47

So, so convince us

2:49

why thorns matter, and then

2:51

I'll, I'll encourage people to get the book The Gift of Thorns.

2:54

But why? Why that title?

2:56

Yeah, well, you'd be surprised to know this as

2:58

a as a fellow writer. This is the first

3:00

time. This is my 11th book. First

3:02

time I've written a book in which my

3:04

proposed title was the actual title of

3:06

that the publisher received. So a

3:09

rare moment of victory in the Swoboda household

3:11

where that.

3:12

Is unusual.

3:12

Actually mattered. Yeah. Uh,

3:14

yeah. So so, uh, it actually,

3:17

uh, goes back to,

3:20

uh, the, the beautiful,

3:22

um, and inspired storyline of the Bible,

3:25

uh, the very beginning, uh,

3:27

of our origin story that goes back to

3:30

Genesis one and two. Humans are

3:32

deceived by the serpent. In Genesis three,

3:35

God tells the man that

3:37

he would turn his attention towards

3:39

his work. He would work the ground and it would

3:41

produce thorns and thistles

3:43

for him. And while

3:46

that that theme of thorns and thistles starts

3:48

almost in at the beginning

3:50

of the Bible, it's it's, oddly enough,

3:52

it's actually a theme that comes up

3:55

over and over and over and over

3:57

again and culminates. And I don't want to ruin it for the

3:59

reader, but culminates in a very beautiful

4:01

moment in the storyline of the Bible. Um,

4:03

and so the big idea is that thorns

4:05

represent a world where we do not get

4:08

everything that we want, and that God has

4:10

created as a result of our rebellion.

4:12

Um, uh, that God

4:14

allows us to experience frustration,

4:17

uh, what Paul calls groaning. And then

4:20

in the end, not getting what

4:22

we want is actually the the greatest

4:24

gift from our creator.

4:26

Mhm. Mhm.

4:28

Again did I mention there's.

4:29

An old.

4:30

There's an old.

4:31

Proverb. There's an old Persian

4:33

proverb that says um

4:35

if, if you want the rose you

4:37

must be willing to receive the thorn.

4:40

And that actually was the a

4:42

proverb that sort of stuck with me as I wrote

4:44

this, that in order for

4:46

us to experience the

4:49

full life of Christ and

4:51

full, you know, to be sanctified,

4:53

to be made holy, we must

4:55

embrace the fact

4:57

that, um, God

4:59

tells us no about things, that God

5:02

limits our lives. He doesn't give us everything

5:04

we want, and that that is a a radical

5:06

gift.

5:07

Hmm. Addressed Hilbert as our guests were talking

5:09

about his new book, The Gift of Thorns Jesus, the

5:11

flesh, and the War for Our Wants. I think it's

5:14

out like two months. So it is new.

5:16

Okay, so, um, thorns.

5:18

And yet a big theme kind of

5:20

known as woven throughout the book is

5:22

how it relates to kind of

5:24

think about desire and how we think about desire

5:27

from maybe a biblical or theological

5:29

point of view, our desires. Good,

5:31

bad. How do you how do you describe them? Walk

5:33

us through some of what you tell us. Tell us.

5:35

Yes, yes. Good

5:38

love all of it. Yeah,

5:40

yeah. So on a on a like just a

5:42

sheer Bible theology level. Um,

5:45

the, the paradigm of, of,

5:47

of Scripture, you know, we begin

5:49

our story begins with. Um,

5:53

all good designers. I mean, the first.

5:55

The first man and the woman in the Eden,

5:57

in the divine space of Eden, uh,

5:59

had a desire for, uh, relationship.

6:02

In fact, Adam longs for a

6:04

partner. This deep sense of

6:06

longing for a relationship

6:08

with the human. Uh, they are

6:10

given, uh, you know, permission

6:13

to name the animals whatever they so desire.

6:15

Uh, whatever Adam desires, um, uh,

6:18

you know, desire for food, for relationship

6:20

with God. They these desires

6:23

are, uh, inextricably

6:25

woven into human

6:28

anthropology. Who humans are. What what a

6:30

human is. Um, this is one of the unique

6:32

features of a human. And I would even argue it's part

6:34

of the Imago Day feature of the humans

6:36

is that we have a unique capacity

6:39

for longing that other creatures

6:41

do not. And of course,

6:43

everything is shattered immediately

6:46

upon the human rebellion.

6:50

They are banished. And even

6:52

in Hebrew, the word for banished is

6:54

the same Hebrew word for divorce.

6:57

It's the idea of being not only

6:59

separated geographically from God, but

7:01

being separated relationally from God

7:03

to the east of Eden. And

7:05

I define actually, this is Paul's word

7:08

for flesh, um, that he utilizes

7:10

quite regularly in the New Testament letters.

7:13

Um, as I define flesh as human

7:15

desire separated from the

7:18

presence of God, because humans continue to

7:20

have desire after the Garden of Eden. It

7:22

just begins to become perverted, um,

7:24

self-centered. It becomes twisted,

7:27

toxic, so on and so forth. So

7:29

many of our desires are profoundly good.

7:31

I mean, I desire to have a good relationship

7:34

with my son. I desire to my dog

7:36

is sitting right here. I want to be a good dog owner. Um,

7:39

I desire to be sanctified in the Holy

7:41

Spirit. And yet. And

7:43

I am a I have a wild

7:46

array of desires that I can tell you are

7:48

not are not good. In our culture. We would

7:50

say you do you. And my problem with you do

7:52

you is, you know, I'm very different on Monday mornings

7:54

than I am Friday nights, and the things that I want in those

7:56

two periods is very different. So the question is,

7:58

well, if I'm supposed to do me, which me am I supposed

8:01

to do? Um, and that I

8:03

need discernment in that because some of my desires,

8:05

if I actually did them, Ed would destroy

8:07

my family. Um,

8:09

and some of my desires, if I did them, would lead

8:11

to life, resurrection, power, grace,

8:14

mercy, and the sought. So

8:16

I here's what that book the book is about

8:18

is. It's about learning the difference between what

8:20

desires God has given to us and

8:22

what desires desperately need to be

8:24

crucified on the cross with Jesus.

8:27

You know.

8:28

And that's a huge distinction for sure. And you actually

8:30

get a kind of start in a way that might

8:32

be, I don't know, maybe a little surprising. You talk

8:35

about the origins of

8:37

desire itself. And um,

8:39

and since gods Desire. So

8:41

talk to us a little bit about where, how how that

8:44

roots the beginning of the conversation.

8:46

Yeah. Well, yeah. The first

8:48

chapter is, um, is

8:50

just a whole chapter on how

8:53

the Bible goes out of its way.

8:55

I mean, it makes it does all

8:57

of this stuff to make it clear

8:59

that the world was not

9:02

created by a robot or ChatGPT.

9:05

Um, the world was created by

9:08

a being who actually

9:10

wanted it. And,

9:13

you know, because ultimately there's a

9:15

obviously huge theological debate around this. Did

9:17

God have to create? Did

9:20

God? Was God forced to or compelled

9:22

to or oppressed to or required

9:24

to? And the answer is, of course, no

9:26

he didn't. He created freely. God can only

9:28

create freely. Um, and so

9:31

why would he create? Well, um, we're told

9:33

multiple times that before the creation of the world,

9:35

uh, that God loved, that God loved. God is

9:38

love. I I'm convinced and

9:40

I write in the book that that God created

9:42

out of sheer desire that God is a desiring

9:45

being who wanted

9:47

us. Which is a remarkable good news.

9:49

I mean, I have a friend who is, um,

9:52

the result of, um, an

9:54

evil, horrible sexual trauma,

9:57

um, before their birth and came to find that they

9:59

were an unwanted child. And

10:01

when she encountered

10:03

the gospel and realized that God wanted

10:05

her and God wants her.

10:07

Uh, that revolutionized her life. Um,

10:10

for those of us who are unwanted, for

10:12

those of us that are unwanted, um, the

10:14

idea that God wants us is

10:17

mind blowing. But there's all this stuff

10:19

in the Bible at about God's desire.

10:21

So, for example, in

10:23

Genesis six, um, there's

10:25

this little moment when God says to himself

10:28

that he will not, uh, that

10:31

that he, his spirit will,

10:33

you know, he can't put up with all this evil anymore,

10:36

right? He makes this comment about how it's just

10:38

gotten so evil. Um, and

10:40

the funny thing about that comment is that there

10:42

is no human present. Who could have known that?

10:45

So it is as theologians. Bible

10:47

scholars call that divine self-talk.

10:49

God is actually talking to himself. He's having

10:52

a it's his inner thoughts, his desires,

10:54

and the Bible is naming it. Why

10:56

would the Bible do this? Because

10:58

clearly the Bible doesn't just want us

11:00

to know God. The Bible wants

11:02

us to know God's desires. And

11:05

in the ancient world, many gods actually didn't

11:07

tell people what they wanted because

11:09

they wanted to keep control over them. It's kind of manipulative.

11:11

If you don't tell them, then they have to constantly live in fear.

11:14

Well, you have 613 commandments in the

11:16

Old Testament. You can

11:18

at least this God in the Bible,

11:21

whether you love them or not. This God

11:23

is always making his will known

11:26

what he wants. So this is

11:28

not only God who has desire. This

11:30

is a God who wants us to know his desire.

11:33

Um, it's almost like he wants to be known.

11:36

Hmm. Hmm.

11:38

We're going to continue our conversation in just a moment with

11:40

A.J. Swoboda. We're going to talk about his

11:42

book desires, uh, what that

11:44

means, thorns and how they relate. And we're going to take

11:46

your calls. Let me remind you that our phone

11:48

number, I think it's a fascinating discussion. I imagine people going

11:51

to ask about, you know, how they wrestle with desires.

11:53

What how do they know what's the right desire? How do they discern the

11:55

desires of their heart? It's (877) 548-3675.

12:01

Again, we're talking about the gift of thorns. Jesus

12:03

to flesh in the war on our wants. 8775483.

12:07

675. Hey!

12:17

We're back. Headsets are live. During the break, I learned

12:19

that I was mispronouncing AJ's name,

12:22

so that's so. That's awesome. I let you know that Karen,

12:24

my producer, actually sent me the correct

12:27

pronunciation. Uh, so because she's

12:29

doing her job. But but I have heard,

12:31

like, when I was at Wheaton College, I mean, AJ, you had that

12:34

book out about doubt and people were

12:36

talking about and I heard what it's Swoboda,

12:38

but it's Swoboda or so.

12:41

Right. I mean, how do you and that just.

12:43

A little, just a little kind of give you a little, little

12:45

cool thing, please. Uh, it means in, in

12:47

Russian or Slavic, uh, languages,

12:49

it means freedom. So if you ever

12:52

watch at the very end of the movie Braveheart,

12:54

when William Wallace screams freedom,

12:56

if you watch the Russian version, he

12:59

screams my last name. So it's,

13:02

uh, he screams very loudly. So a.

13:04

Bonus. What? Bo. Okay. All right, I

13:06

learned this, and this is check. Your name is Czech.

13:08

So, you know, the Czech Republic now

13:10

has changed its name to Czechia, so it's hard for us to take

13:13

the name seriously. Czechia. But I

13:15

don't know. You shouldn't give your country a nickname, but that's like

13:17

the official name now, so I'm a little traumatized

13:19

by that. But anyway, probably more information than anybody

13:21

wants to know. We're talking to a Swoboda.

13:25

Swoboda, not Swoboda, uh,

13:27

about the gift of thorns, Jesus, the

13:29

flesh and the war for our

13:32

wants. And and we kind of framed out a little

13:34

bit, you know, where thorns, where thorns come in,

13:36

what desires are, how they fit. We're taking your

13:38

calls as well. (877) 548-3675.

13:44

Because one of the things you know, we see AJ is

13:46

I mean, throughout the Bible, there's clearly

13:48

a war about wants and desires.

13:50

The very thing I want to do I just don't do. I do the things I

13:53

don't want to do and more. So

13:55

and again, this is a key theme in

13:57

the book, is what it looks like to kind of to

13:59

kind of address, to kind of walk through

14:01

those things and, and

14:04

self denials, a pretty common theme

14:06

that you talk about in the book. So, so

14:08

how do we rightly order

14:10

our desires and

14:13

how do we how do we even think about desires, maybe to get

14:15

there.

14:16

Yeah. Well, so so the the

14:18

language that you just used, um,

14:21

about rightly ordering our

14:23

desires is actually a language that was

14:26

adopted very early on

14:28

in the earliest Christian community

14:30

by, um, who has been called

14:33

the Apostle of Desire, Saint Augustine.

14:36

Um Augustine's writings. This

14:38

is a core theme of Augustine's writings. And in fact,

14:40

when you read his writings through the lens of desire,

14:42

you can tell this is pretty much just his,

14:44

his, his, his

14:47

topic. I mean, he is he is

14:49

a man clearly beset with,

14:52

um, unwanted sexual desires. He's

14:54

a man who is frustrated at

14:56

times that his baptism did

14:58

not cause all of his flesh to

15:00

just annihilate and vaporize

15:02

into the air. He. This is one

15:04

of his core themes as

15:06

the idea of ordering one's

15:09

desires. We tend to

15:11

think that the

15:13

that everything is about doing

15:15

good desires and not

15:17

doing evil desires. And certainly that is

15:19

part of this. Part of this is

15:21

what we would what Paul would say, crucifying

15:24

the flesh. Um,

15:27

and, and yet at the same time, learning to

15:29

do the desires that God would want,

15:31

which we would call the kingdom of God.

15:33

Uh, Dallas Willard's description of the Kingdom

15:35

of God is the effective range of God's

15:38

will, which basically means this whenever

15:40

we do what God wants, the kingdom

15:42

comes. So we yes, that's

15:44

part of this, but another part of this.

15:47

Is ordering our desires in such

15:50

a way that we opt to do

15:52

the God thing over the good thing.

15:56

So let me let me explain what I mean by that. Let me tell

15:58

you about my biggest struggle with jealousy.

16:02

This is my biggest envy. Biggest

16:04

envy. I lose sleep over it,

16:06

I. It frustrates me.

16:08

I get mad about it. In

16:10

my neighborhood where I live, here in Oregon,

16:13

I go for an evening run most

16:15

evenings. And when I do.

16:18

Um, my neighbors either during the day. In

16:20

the evening, my neighbors and my neighborhood will

16:22

leave their garage doors open. And

16:26

this is what kills me is not how much stuff

16:28

they have, it's that their garages are organized.

16:30

Oh, totally. I hate those.

16:32

Because I know my garage and it is uncertified.

16:35

And there it is. The chaos, the

16:37

sanctified realm of the chaotic

16:39

creation. Leviathan lives in there.

16:41

And, um, when I see

16:44

my neighbor's garage, it's the wicked of

16:46

the wick. It's the envy of the wicked

16:48

garage. I

16:50

get really mad because I don't have time

16:53

right now to organize my garage. I'm telling you, I'm

16:55

serious. It it just it destroys

16:57

me. You know what I've had to do? I've

16:59

had to choose at this season of my life, at 43

17:01

years old just now, doing my

17:03

swan dive into my midlife crisis, I have

17:05

had to choose. That

17:08

in this season of my life, I'm not going to

17:10

have an organized garage, but

17:12

I am going to be a present father. And

17:16

that I can't at this season. There's going to come a point

17:19

when I'm going to get to organize a garage and

17:21

I'll get to do that, but right now. I'm

17:24

choosing to be a good dad. And

17:26

this is for me, the work of the spirit.

17:28

Because, uh, it

17:31

is tempting to want to to do

17:33

the garage and neglect things that really matter.

17:35

How ironic and sad would it be

17:38

if I had an organized garage

17:40

and a neglected son? I

17:43

think the work of the spirit in our lives

17:45

is not just to invite

17:47

us to do what God wants.

17:49

It's invite us to do what God wants, not

17:51

only over evil things, but over

17:53

other alternative good things. And

17:56

so ordering our desserts, that's what I have a whole

17:58

chapter called Ordering Desires. We

18:00

have to address what is the most

18:02

important stuff for us to to desire.

18:06

Mm.

18:07

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm trying

18:09

to decide if I should be clever and point out that there are there

18:11

are other options. You could be a good father and

18:13

clean your garage. But I don't want to add shame

18:15

to you.

18:15

I'd appreciate it at this stage to not

18:18

complicate things, but the reality is, I

18:20

mean, you you get the point. We all have a complicated.

18:23

No, no, we were making choices, right? So every day

18:25

we have to make choices of things that

18:28

that we have to say let, let go of in some

18:30

ways. And I have a desire to have a clean garage.

18:32

I have I have the want of it, but not the

18:34

will of it. So I get that. That's right. Um,

18:36

and, you know, we just move. So maybe I have an excuse, but you've

18:39

lived there. How many years in your garage is still a disaster?

18:41

Yeah. Let's move on to the next topic.

18:43

Okay. Next topic. Okay. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. Next.

18:45

Next question. So, um, so,

18:47

so sorry. Um.

18:50

All right, so let me remind. Remind our folks who

18:52

that they can call in because we got some good calls lined up

18:54

as well. Uh, and I'll jump to them right in a moment.

18:56

But (877) 548-3675.

18:59

By the way, we're going to give away a few copies

19:01

of the book, The Gift of Thorns

19:04

Jesus, the flesh and the War

19:06

for Our Wants. And

19:08

to insightful callers, not just call up and ask for a copy

19:10

of the book with questions or comments. Again, our

19:12

number is (877) 548-3675.

19:17

We're going to go to we're going to go in just a second

19:20

to Jeanette in Kissimmee, Florida,

19:22

which AJ, the uninitiated

19:24

would say Kissimmee because that's what it looks like.

19:26

But I am not uninitiated

19:29

to the pronunciation because I went on my second

19:31

date, I don't even know decades

19:33

ago with my wife girlfriend,

19:36

uh, to Kissimmee, Florida. So, Jeanette,

19:38

with that backstory, you don't have to comment on

19:40

that, but you were live on the air with your question or your

19:42

comment. Jump right in. Jeanette.

19:44

Thank you. Congratulations on

19:46

knowing that. But I was wondering

19:48

more about if you're well aware

19:50

or not. I shouldn't say that that's presuming

19:53

on God, but if you're you're

19:55

certain that your desire

19:58

is a God given desire

20:00

and it's deferred, meaning,

20:03

um, it's not coming to fruition or

20:05

it's probably never going to be, I

20:07

can't think of a specific one, but I think of,

20:09

you know, maybe someone has a desire

20:12

to have a child, and that

20:14

certainly happens in the Bible. But, um,

20:16

I can think maybe there's others that you think,

20:18

well, it's a God given, um, maybe

20:20

a godly sounding desire,

20:23

but it it's not coming to fruition. What

20:25

should be our response?

20:27

Oh my goodness, the question.

20:28

I'm going to give you a copy. Let me give him a

20:30

copy. Hold on one second. Jeanette I'm going

20:32

to give you a copy of the book, The Gift of Thorns.

20:34

Jesus, the flesh and the world wants. I just need you to hold

20:36

on after you hear AJ.

20:38

And then our producer will come on after he's done

20:40

answering your question. AJ, write to you.

20:43

Yeah, absolutely. I'm just I'm

20:45

I'm I want to I wish I could reach

20:47

through the radio and give you a high five. That's just

20:49

a fabulous, fabulous question.

20:51

Every single one of us

20:54

have good desires for things

20:56

from God that we have yet

20:58

to receive. And what

21:00

we do with those desires. Be it I

21:02

was with a student this week who desires to be married.

21:05

Um, a desire for children, a better

21:08

job, a desire for,

21:10

you know, to to to be able to walk

21:12

through temptations that they struggle

21:14

with. Um, so,

21:16

so what do we do? What do we what do we do with that?

21:19

Um, you know, there's

21:21

this there's this old sermon,

21:23

and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pull out an old sermon here

21:26

by a guy named Martin Luther, the

21:28

Protestant reformer. Um, he

21:31

was preaching on. The

21:33

story of Jesus in the boat with the

21:35

disciples. And

21:37

there's the storm. And and he

21:39

has this line in, in

21:41

a in in a sermon on that, on that story

21:44

where. When Jesus

21:46

is sleeping in the boat. Um,

21:49

he asks, kind of in this vulnerable

21:51

moment, he says, why would why

21:54

would Jesus sleep in the boat?

21:56

But it's an interesting question. What's

21:59

the why would Jesus, what are you accomplishing

22:01

by by sleeping in the boat? Jesus.

22:04

And Luther makes this just almost

22:06

throwaway line that he says the

22:09

reason Jesus sleeps

22:11

in the boat. Is

22:13

to arouse his desire, the

22:15

desires of his disciples,

22:17

to need to cry out to him. Hmm.

22:21

And his. And what he's saying is,

22:24

is is he saying, like Jesus

22:26

intentionally goes quiet?

22:30

To to cause the

22:32

humans in the boat to long

22:34

for him. Would you respond?

22:36

When I read that, it

22:39

dawned on me. That is exactly

22:41

what happened in the Garden of Eden. Because

22:44

the man in the Garden of Eden who is alone,

22:47

there's no sin in the garden yet. It

22:49

says that he is alone. There's no

22:52

sin in the garden. God even says it's

22:54

not good for men to be alone. God

22:56

created Adam with

22:59

a desire for something that he did not

23:01

yet have. That was good.

23:04

Well, the sidestep here, the whole conversation that God

23:06

actually created us to

23:08

desire something other than himself.

23:11

God created us to actually want

23:13

community, actually want relationships.

23:15

And God is not frustrated that Adam longs

23:18

for these things because God created Adam

23:20

for these things. God

23:22

is. Why does he do it? I mean, I'm convinced that

23:24

God does this so that

23:26

Adam would not just know God

23:29

as his creator, he

23:31

would also know God as his provider.

23:35

I'm I'm convinced with my entire

23:37

being that those parts of our life

23:39

where we have desires for good,

23:41

godly things are

23:43

actually God's way. It's like he's sleeping in

23:46

the boat. They are God's way

23:48

of causing us to seek

23:50

him with all of our existence.

23:54

Now, what do we do with the fact, whether they come

23:56

or not? We're not sovereign beings and

23:58

we can't control that. But what we

24:00

can do in the midst of the waiting

24:03

is that we can seek God. I

24:05

am struck in the Bible, by the way, how

24:08

often as people wait for

24:10

something from God, that's

24:12

the very moment they're most vulnerable. It's when Moses

24:14

is up on the mountain, and the people

24:16

down below say he's been up there for too long,

24:19

and that is when they make the golden calf. We

24:21

often make our idols in

24:24

the waiting. It is when we wait

24:26

for what God is providing that we worship other

24:28

things so that the key is,

24:30

as we wait, actually trusting

24:33

in God as the one who will provide.

24:37

It's so good. I think. I think that pastoral tone

24:40

was one of the things that I found a little surprising,

24:42

your scholar, but they're very much a pastoral tone. You

24:44

share some of your own journey here as well.

24:47

We're going to continue our conversation with

24:49

RJ in just a minute. Our phone number

24:51

is (877) 548-3675.

24:55

Nancy, I'm going to come back to you on the other side,

24:57

and then we'll jump to some other callers as well.

25:00

But again, I want you to be able to jump in with this conversation.

25:02

I have some questions as well. I'm going to ask

25:05

questions like how do we kind of navigate

25:07

our desires? How do we you

25:09

know, I mean, it seems that a lot of the books premise is,

25:11

um, that the world where we don't always

25:13

get our desires is the best. And I,

25:15

you know, I have questions when I unpack that as well.

25:18

I imagine you will also, our phone number

25:20

is (877) 548-3675.

25:24

We'll give it one more time. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675.

25:30

Let me thank our behind the scenes team here

25:32

at Moody Radio as well. My producer Karen

25:34

Hendren. She's the one I mentioned earlier who sent

25:36

me the correct correct pronunciation

25:39

of Swoboda. Here I am against boda.

25:41

Uh, Swoboda. Swoboda got it back.

25:44

Uh, Swoboda. So we're going to also

25:46

thank Bob Monroe, who's our engineer, Laura

25:48

manning. The phones. I'm going to be back with RJ and

25:50

your calls in just a moment. Again, last time for the phone

25:52

number (877) 548-3675.

26:06

Hey! We're back. Stats are live. I'm Ed Stetson,

26:08

your host. I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.

26:11

Normally. And then on Saturdays,

26:13

I'm your radio host here with AJ. I'm

26:15

going to make sure I get it right. It's swoboda.

26:18

Swoboda. And so I'm getting

26:20

it right that time. Is that right AJ that's

26:22

right.

26:22

You got it. You got it.

26:23

Okay, good. I'm gonna tell you a funny story. Hey, Jake, is this the

26:25

pronunciation of your name has become the subtheme of

26:27

the show? I was, I was

26:30

I was preaching at a very high falutin church once,

26:32

uh, Westminster Chapel in London,

26:34

and I was trying to use the word apostolic,

26:37

and I couldn't for some reason

26:39

say the word apostolic. And I don't

26:42

know why you just sort of get something in your head. I'm sure this

26:44

happened to you. And it's like, and no matter what you say.

26:47

And so finally I said of the apostles, so I

26:49

might just say of the Buddha at some point with,

26:51

with your name. So again,

26:53

Karen Hendren prepared me. It's literally written

26:55

in the bio in front of me, but I cannot stop.

26:58

But anyway, we've got calls lined up as

27:00

well. And again, I really think this is a helpful conversation.

27:02

So I want to encourage people to pick up the book The Gift

27:04

of Thorns after, uh uh, which

27:06

which unpacks I mean, again, I his

27:08

book after doubt I was going to also mention is a good

27:10

book to to read as well. It'll it'll challenge

27:13

make you think about some things as well.

27:15

So let's go. We're going to take some calls here. I said

27:17

Nancy we're going to go to you first. Nancy, you're in Indiana

27:19

and you're live on the air with your question or your comment.

27:22

Yes. Thank you. How do we get rid

27:24

of an evil desire? I've had something

27:27

I've dealt with for several years, and

27:29

it just hangs on.

27:31

Mhm.

27:31

Super question have you feel. Hold on Nancy too. I'm

27:33

going to give you a copy of the book. Uh

27:36

Karen, my producer is going to come on after you hear AJ's

27:38

answer. Going to give you a copy of The Gift of Thorns AJ.

27:40

It's got to be a common question. And you do deal with it a

27:42

lot in the book. So talk about that.

27:44

Absolutely. Yeah. Nancy, thank you for the

27:47

terrific question. The first thing I want

27:49

to say to you, I have some just fabulous

27:51

news. Uh, you ain't alone,

27:53

friend. This is, uh,

27:57

uh, we are all, uh,

27:59

one of actually one of Saint Augustine's, um,

28:01

quotes. As he says, we are a gymnasium of desire,

28:04

which means, goodness gracious. We

28:06

are a wide array of just weird,

28:08

weird desires that some of which we chose,

28:11

some of which we did not. You are not alone.

28:13

And and and why? That's,

28:16

I think, an important thing to recognize is

28:18

that, um, you are not required

28:20

to have to come up with the path. Um,

28:22

you get to follow the path. So

28:24

the, the New Testament answer to that

28:26

is, um. Is

28:29

that our task is to crucify the flesh.

28:32

And what we mean by that is

28:35

it is our responsibility

28:37

is our it is part

28:39

of the discipleship that we have in Jesus

28:42

to put those

28:44

desires on the cross with Christ,

28:46

that they would be cruciform

28:48

desires. They would be desires that have been crucified

28:51

with Christ and formed around

28:54

him. Um,

28:56

here's, you know, it's a it's a, it's a, it's

28:58

a, it's a pretty heavy topic to

29:00

think about the topic of temptation

29:02

and whether temptation is

29:04

a sin or not. And we all, we all face

29:07

significant temptations, right? The evil one

29:09

seeks to get us. I mean, this is part of the Lord's Prayer.

29:11

Deliver us from the evil one. Um,

29:13

that that we experience

29:15

temptations from Satan, from evil,

29:17

from darkness. And

29:20

it's important for us to not

29:23

judge ourselves for experiencing temptation.

29:25

And the reason I can say that is temptation

29:28

is not a sin. Um,

29:30

Jesus himself was tempted by

29:32

the evil one, and he was the sinless

29:35

Son of God. And so

29:37

clearly temptation is not a sin.

29:40

So what I wouldn't invite you to do is

29:43

I would not invite you to, like, beat

29:45

yourself up for it. I would not invite you to

29:47

shame yourself. This is a part

29:49

of living in a world where

29:52

darkness has power and authority to tempt

29:54

us. But when those desires

29:57

from within or without come.

30:00

It is the constant task of the

30:02

follower of Jesus to hand

30:04

those desires to Christ

30:06

and say, I have this, I

30:09

don't want it, and I need you

30:11

to hold this for me. I need you to take this

30:13

from me. I would, in addition

30:15

to that, this say that we

30:17

all need. Kurt Thompson

30:19

is a Christian neuroscientist whose work has really

30:22

been helpful. He writes about what he

30:24

calls confessional communities. This

30:26

is the church. We need an environment

30:29

where we have a person or two

30:31

who we can bear the burden

30:34

of our evil desires, that we can

30:36

actually say it out loud because

30:38

by saying it again, it needs to be a trusted

30:40

person, but by saying

30:42

it, it removes its power.

30:46

Because when you hold that in over

30:48

and it just, it just gets stronger

30:50

and stronger and stronger. As a university

30:52

professor, if I had a dollar

30:54

for every time one of my students came into

30:56

my office to talk about unwanted

30:59

sexual desires, struggles with

31:01

wants for this or that, I'd be a billionaire

31:04

by now. Um, what

31:06

somebody needs in moments like that is

31:08

a trusted person who will listen

31:10

and point you back to Jesus

31:13

and offer forgiveness and the self

31:15

of healing. Because ultimately,

31:18

temptation is not a sin. Giving

31:20

in to the temptation and following it is,

31:23

but having it in and of itself.

31:25

Um, uh, is not is not, is

31:28

not, is not something that we need to

31:30

beat ourselves up over. So I think, Nancy,

31:32

that would be my gut gut level

31:34

response.

31:35

Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's a bit I remember

31:37

hold on, Nancy, that Karen's going to come give you a

31:39

book. I think there is a bit of a conversation

31:42

around, you know, what

31:44

desires. And I just had Rebecca

31:46

McLaughlin and she has a new book on same sex

31:48

relationships, and she's,

31:50

um, I have a podcast called the, uh,

31:52

Stetson Church Leaders Podcast geared towards pastors

31:54

and church leaders. And it's a big navigating

31:57

moment around issues of sexual

31:59

ethics in many churches. And, and

32:02

Rebecca has, uh, has, uh,

32:04

talked about her own same sex attraction.

32:07

And she'd been married, uh,

32:09

to her husband for, I forget, I think 17 years.

32:11

But there is one of the questions that we

32:13

talk about, and I encourage people, if they want to subscribe to the podcast,

32:16

they can just Google Stats or Church Leaders podcast. Actually,

32:18

we'll link it. Karen will link it after she gives away this book.

32:20

She'll link it in Stitcher Live.com.

32:22

But there is kind of a debate and

32:25

you've seen it is our

32:27

temptations of that

32:29

sort. In this case, Rebecca was talking about

32:31

same sex attraction, but just in general

32:33

our temptations towards sin. You seem to be saying

32:35

no, but let's unpack. It's a little more our temptations

32:38

towards, uh, sinful desires

32:40

and actions themselves. Sinful.

32:45

Yeah. I mean, how much

32:47

time do we have? I mean, this is this is such

32:49

a wildly complex,

32:51

um, conversation, especially

32:54

when we're talking about something as sensitive as

32:56

same sex attraction. I will say

32:58

this.

32:59

But we can talk about it in general. In general. I mean,

33:01

like, is is is the temptation itself,

33:04

uh, related to sin, you know, how

33:06

would you frame that?

33:07

Yeah. Um, when I read,

33:10

um, James one, um, there's

33:12

there's this, uh, beautiful and very

33:14

important passage where James

33:17

talks about how, um,

33:20

uh, sin. So he's he's talking about the full

33:22

fruition of sin, and he says, uh,

33:24

in James one, uh,

33:26

that when, uh, when

33:29

you, uh, each person is

33:31

tempted, when they're dragged away by their own evil

33:33

desire, they're enticed after desire has

33:35

conceived. It gives birth

33:37

to sin when it is fully grown,

33:39

gives birth to death.

33:42

So as I read this text and I've

33:44

I've read this a thousand times and I do not

33:46

want to sidestep so.

33:47

Fits so fits your theme in your book too.

33:49

So I get it. Yeah.

33:50

It's very important to recognize

33:53

that, um,

33:56

a James does not

33:58

seem to separate the

34:00

difference between temptation and evil

34:02

desire as some would want. So there's

34:04

a debate to be had about like, is

34:07

somebody's evil desire a culpable

34:09

sin in itself, and

34:11

is temptation from the outside? And

34:13

the argument by some is that evil desire is

34:15

us and temptation is from the outside. And

34:17

I understand that I'm not. I'm not saying that that's

34:19

not accurate, but I'm it

34:21

is odd to me as I wrestle with this,

34:24

that James does not to me

34:26

on appearance seem to separate

34:29

um, uh, temptation

34:31

and desire in the neat, clean

34:33

way that maybe one would want. Um,

34:36

and and at the end of the day, when I'm a

34:38

pastor, um, whether

34:41

somebody is experiencing temptation

34:44

or evil desire, my

34:46

response is going to be the exact

34:48

same. We need to give this to

34:50

Jesus and receive grace and mercy in

34:52

our time of temptation and in our time

34:54

of our flesh. So my response

34:56

would be the same in both. Let's put

34:59

this on the cross together where

35:01

it comes from, whether it's from the devil or

35:03

my own flesh. It's hard to know the

35:05

difference between those two, and

35:07

I don't think we can always suss out as

35:09

we can in James one, the difference

35:11

between those two. But I know that when

35:13

I'm sitting at with a young person

35:15

in my office who is describing

35:18

sexual desires that they know

35:20

do not align with the way of Jesus,

35:23

my spiritual authority requires me

35:25

to to not affirm desires

35:28

that will lead to death. My

35:30

responsibility is to invite somebody

35:33

to crucify those desires and

35:35

put them with Jesus. My pastoral

35:37

response would be the same, whether it were

35:39

temptation or evil desire.

35:42

Mhm.

35:43

Yeah. And I guess the question then

35:45

for me becomes in those pastoral conversations because

35:47

I'm, you know, I'm at Biola University students

35:50

and it's not, it's not just students though. Students have a lot of

35:52

questions around some of these issues. But it's all

35:54

of us. So do they cry

35:56

out to God and ask him to remove those

35:59

desires? How does that

36:01

relate to, you know, the cruciform approach

36:03

you talked about about, you know, putting them on the cross.

36:05

But but how do I how far

36:07

back do I go? Lord, take these desires away. Certainly

36:09

Augustine addresses that. You address that some in the

36:11

book talk to us about that. Yeah.

36:13

Well, this in the early church, there was actually

36:15

a there was a document called the

36:17

Shepherd of hermits. It was this

36:20

one of the earliest kind of spiritual.

36:23

Um, so one of the earliest kind of spiritual

36:25

writings that really edified Christians. But it wasn't

36:28

in the New Testament. So it was many

36:30

actually thought it should be in the New Testament, but it didn't.

36:32

It didn't make it rightfully so. And

36:34

the whole theme of the book is this what do you

36:36

do? What do you do

36:38

when you've been baptized? Saved? You

36:40

love Jesus. And yet

36:42

your evil desires that you had before

36:45

you got saved still remain with you. And

36:48

actually the theme of the book is so important for me because

36:50

when I was 16 and met, Jesus got saved.

36:53

Um, the desires that I

36:55

had before I met Jesus.

36:58

Many of those desires I continued

37:00

to struggle with and continue

37:02

to struggle with today. It is

37:04

a daily journey. I mean, this has been the place where

37:06

I have met God's grace the most

37:08

is in those desires that are wayward, that

37:10

are not God's desires. Um,

37:13

I wish, man, I wish.

37:16

I wish your baptism

37:19

meant that you no longer have to had

37:21

the flesh. But the reality is,

37:23

we walk with the flesh every day until resurrection.

37:26

It has been crucified with Christ, but it still screams

37:28

out really loud to us every

37:31

day. It does not have

37:33

the same power it used to have in us. And that's why

37:35

the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is

37:37

so important, because the Holy Spirit

37:39

gives us a pathway to walk out of

37:41

those evil desires in a way

37:43

that we did not have before we met Jesus.

37:46

But those desires, I mean, again,

37:49

I'm just I'm a reader of saints here and

37:51

almost every single saint that

37:54

I read about in the history of the church. From

37:57

Dallas Willard to Eugene Peterson,

38:00

to Henry Nouwen, to

38:02

Dorothy Sayers, to G.K.

38:04

Chesterton. I mean, I could go through this

38:06

list to to Billy Graham.

38:08

Every single saint I

38:10

read. Their biography

38:12

will always describe some

38:15

nagging desire in their life

38:17

that they always had that was

38:19

not of the Lord that they wrestled with. And

38:23

that, if I'm completely candid, is

38:25

profoundly hopeful for me because

38:27

I get so mean to myself

38:30

for having desires that I know are not

38:32

good, as though that

38:34

in and of itself means I'm

38:36

disqualified or a

38:38

complete and utter failure. Um.

38:42

You. You brought up Paul's language.

38:44

If I do what I don't want to do, and I don't do what I should

38:46

do, I mean, he Paul himself

38:49

describes his spiritual journey as

38:51

wrestling with desires after his own experience

38:53

with Jesus that just didn't go away.

38:55

That doesn't mean you're a failure. That means

38:57

God is walking with you.

39:00

Fascinating. We're gonna continue our conversation. We have one more

39:02

segment. We're going to try to go right to calls, which

39:04

means I would encourage our callers to be

39:06

ready. Be ready with your question, your comments.

39:09

Jump right in and then AJ will kind of

39:11

do a little lightning round there at the end. Lots of good questions.

39:13

We're talking about the gift of thorns Jesus, the

39:15

flesh and the war for our

39:17

one so we can continue with your call. (877) 548-3675.

39:33

Hey. We're back. Headsets are live. Thanks for listening to this.

39:35

And every Saturday at this time or wherever you listen

39:37

via podcast as well, we're talking to AJ

39:39

Swoboda. He's associate professor

39:41

of Bible and theology at Bushnell University.

39:44

His newest book is The Gift of Thorns

39:47

Jesus, the flesh and the War

39:49

for Our Wants. And

39:52

of course, we've listed all of his books at Stitcher Live.com.

39:54

All the resources are there. We're giving away a free

39:56

copies of The Gift of Thorns as

39:58

well to our callers. I really want to encourage you to get

40:00

right to your question in your comments. So we can get several

40:02

in. We're going to start by going to Tamika in

40:05

Chicago. Tamika, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.

40:08

Uh, thank you for taking my call.

40:10

And, um, RJ, my question

40:13

for you is, um, how do I

40:15

deal with you actually kind of address

40:17

this, um, during the course of this, um,

40:19

conversation, just how do I deal with unfulfilled

40:21

desires that are overwhelming

40:23

me and at times becoming all consuming,

40:26

causing me to lose sleep? I'm

40:29

just trying to. I've been wrestling with it for

40:31

a while. Um, I will say since

40:33

spring of last fall

40:35

of last year, I'm just trying to find

40:38

ways to cope with this and even just

40:40

asking God if these desires are not going to be fulfilled,

40:42

just take it from me, because I just

40:45

desire peace and

40:47

this is just what I'm struggling with. So it's

40:49

a loaded question and you've addressed it.

40:51

And I just wanted to get more info.

40:53

Oh, I think it's good to get more question answered

40:55

here. This is Tamika. Thank you so much for your transparency

40:57

and the question. I want you to hold on after AJ's

40:59

answer so we can give you a copy of The Gift

41:01

of Thorns. I mean, AJ, this has got

41:04

to be just such a common question. What do you say.

41:08

To make your, um, a hero of

41:10

mine for asking and for being so

41:12

in touch with yourself that you, um.

41:14

I even sensed as you were, as you were

41:16

saying that, that

41:18

you were almost holding back tears,

41:20

um, that there's a deep longing

41:22

that you have in your heart and you're wondering

41:25

why, uh, in the world,

41:27

um, you have received yet and what do I what

41:30

do I do with that? Um,

41:32

my wife and I, for

41:35

the better part of six years,

41:37

uh, experienced, uh, a very

41:39

painful season of infertility,

41:42

um, our inability to have a child,

41:45

which is very frustrating when, when, when

41:47

the season went through. We do have a son, and he's

41:49

the greatest kid in the world. Is 12.

41:51

Um, and I love him with

41:53

every part of every atom in my being.

41:56

Um, but it was really it

41:58

was really difficult during that season of,

42:01

of going through infertility because.

42:04

For a person who's walking through infertility.

42:06

Um, the worst thing is Facebook, because

42:08

everybody else can have babies on Facebook.

42:11

And you constantly see it and you

42:13

constantly see what everybody has,

42:15

and you constantly see, um,

42:18

you constantly see that that

42:20

other people who maybe don't

42:22

even want kids can have kids. It's so

42:24

frustrating and wondering, God,

42:27

what are you doing? What

42:29

are you doing? It almost felt at times, and I

42:31

know that he was. And I'm not questioning God's goodness.

42:33

But there were almost at times

42:35

this sense, like I wondered, Is God

42:37

being mean to me? Is

42:39

God mad at me? Did I do something

42:42

that upset the Lord? Like, am

42:44

I paying for sins from college or something

42:46

like that? And

42:49

I think, Tamika, what I had to learn

42:52

in that season of six years.

42:56

Um. Is

42:58

I had to learn to embrace

43:01

that season. As.

43:05

God's way of

43:08

showing me his

43:10

grace in a way that I could never imagine.

43:13

I actually, I think it would be wrong

43:15

of me. It would be spiritual malpractice for

43:17

me to give you some sort

43:19

of tip about how to get what you want, because

43:21

only God can be the provider. Only

43:24

God can be the provider. And in the waiting,

43:27

the need for mercy. The

43:29

need for mercy is so deep

43:31

and the need for grace. I

43:33

think I would say to you to allow,

43:37

allow that deep longing

43:39

and struggle to be a graduate

43:42

level course in

43:44

experiencing the grace of God. That should

43:46

be where you experience God's grace

43:48

every day. One of the great gifts.

43:51

It's funny, Paul says he talks about a

43:53

thorn in his side. Uh, we actually

43:55

don't know what the thorn is. He never mentions it.

43:57

Second Corinthians, he talks about this thorn. He has

43:59

an aside and he says it's there.

44:02

And I've asked the Lord to take it away

44:04

three times. But the Lord has not. Um,

44:07

some have thought that it was a sexual struggle.

44:09

Some thought it was a person. Um,

44:11

a colleague of mine, Leonard Sweet, argues

44:14

that it was that he constantly lived with

44:16

the gnawing knowledge that he was not one of the original

44:18

12 disciples. Uh, we don't

44:20

know what the thorn is, but we know

44:22

this, that Paul goes out of

44:24

his way in Second Corinthians to say, he

44:27

goes out of his way to say that the thorns

44:29

in his side have kept him

44:31

from being conceited. What he's

44:33

saying there is he's saying they have humbled

44:35

me. There

44:38

is a gift in the thorns in our side. And

44:40

the gift is to make of that as

44:43

you as you wait and long and struggle

44:45

with this thing at

44:48

that very place. God is humbling

44:50

you. And he is teaching

44:52

you to become a well formed

44:54

person. I think my

44:56

my encouragement to you would be receive

44:58

it as a gift. Receive

45:01

it as a gift.

45:03

Mhm.

45:04

That's a hard thing for us to do. And we've got just about

45:06

30s left in the program.

45:08

And so, so I hear you saying

45:10

that I want to do that. But I

45:13

struggled at stats or struggles with

45:15

doing this. Help me, help me to.

45:17

How might I receive this as a gift?

45:19

What change in my heart needs to come so

45:21

I can receive it as a gift?

45:24

Um, we, um, we

45:27

need to look at the cross again and

45:29

again and again and

45:31

see that Jesus himself

45:34

submitted his own desires to the

45:36

father, and it brought life to the whole world

45:39

that as Jesus said, the Garden of Gethsemane says,

45:42

father, if there's any way for this not to

45:44

happen, may it be, but your will

45:46

be done. That is how the world

45:49

is saved. It's through Jesus

45:51

who submits himself to the father so

45:54

that we could experience the love of God. It brings

45:56

life. It brings life.

45:58

So good and such a good way

46:00

to end our conversation as well. Let me encourage you if

46:03

you found today's conversation helpful.

46:05

And I just would just transparently our team

46:07

has been just we have a little chat and just we've

46:09

found it very helpful. And I wanna encourage

46:11

you to pick up the gift of thorns, Jesus, the flesh

46:14

and the war for our wants. It's just out

46:16

about a couple of months ago as well. And

46:18

so we've given away a few copies here because we

46:20

want you to be encouraged by that. Thank you so

46:22

much for our callers as well

46:25

to hear today's program. Again, you'll find it at Stitcher

46:27

live.com or on the Moody Radio app.

46:29

You can also connect through us through social media,

46:31

Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all at

46:33

Ed Setzer Live. Remember that

46:36

editor Sister Live is a production of Moody Radio,

46:38

which is a ministry of Moody Bible

46:40

Institute. So on behalf of our team and I didn't

46:42

mention earlier Laura manning the phones. Thanks for the good

46:44

callers and Laura manning

46:47

those phones as well. We look forward to talking to you again

46:49

next Saturday this.

46:50

Time as well.