0:07

Well, this is editor Stetson Live. And this on

0:09

every Saturday we come to you with discussions

0:11

about the culture of the moment, the mission,

0:13

really how we can be faithful and fruitful in the

0:15

work of Christ in the world and today, particularly

0:18

well, in America, where it's

0:20

around that Thanksgiving time. So we're going to talk about

0:22

thankfulness and gratitude and

0:24

more. I'm Ed Stetson, I'm the

0:26

dean at the Talbot School of Theology

0:28

at Biola University. And for every Saturday

0:31

this time, I'm your host. Let me remind

0:33

you, if you're listening live, we're so glad you are. But

0:35

you can also subscribe to the podcast. And

0:37

you can do that by going to Ed Stetson Live.com.

0:40

Because maybe you're not. Every Saturday at this time

0:42

available, we can always listen to the podcast because

0:44

we have some wonderful guests, including

0:47

a friend of many years, and Vos Camp

0:49

is our guest today and we're super excited

0:51

to have her on the program. She's a Canadian

0:54

author, blogger and writer

0:56

and just speaker, and I can't

0:58

think of like ten other ways to describe her. But for

1:00

me, she's a friend and we so thankful

1:03

we were. I got to know her really well

1:05

as she walked through her master's degree there

1:07

at Wheaton College, when I was the dean and her

1:09

occasional professor. She's written many books,

1:11

including the New York Times bestseller 1000

1:13

Gifts A Dare to Live Fully Right

1:16

Where You Are, as well as The Broken Way,

1:18

A Daring Path Into the Abundant Life, and Waymaker

1:20

finding the way to the life

1:22

that you've always dreamed of. She's married to Daryl.

1:25

They have seven children Daryl the farmer.

1:27

They have seven children, and they literally live

1:29

on a farm in Ontario,

1:32

which is just so amazing. And thanks

1:34

for joining us and talking about gratitude

1:36

and Thanksgiving today.

1:38

So, so, so good always

1:40

to be with you, Dr. Setzer. Thank you.

1:44

Well, it's Thanksgiving in America.

1:46

Not that October Canadian Thanksgiving

1:49

that that that you up north

1:51

do. And I should full disclosure my my

1:53

wife and knows it's my wife's Canadian. So

1:55

you like to celebrate Thanksgiving every time

1:57

weekend. My three kids are dual citizens

2:00

as well. But but you know, for

2:02

Americans, it's you know, right

2:04

now is in a sense, it's

2:06

the beginning of the holiday season, which

2:08

some people dread and some people have joy.

2:11

And in the midst of all this, man, how do we

2:13

find things amidst the deadlines and

2:15

debt and drama and

2:18

and even sadness? You know, all

2:20

these things the holidays

2:22

represent to us. Let's talk a little bit about about

2:24

joy, gratitude and thankfulness in all

2:26

of those things.

2:28

You know, and I think even this year, it's even

2:30

more tender

2:32

and poignant for all of us to gather

2:34

our I mean, here in Canada, I have such

2:36

high esteem for Americans

2:39

who can celebrate Thanksgiving,

2:41

the end of November and move right

2:43

into Advent and Christmas. I'm

2:45

grateful that up here in Canada, we have a longer

2:47

runway. We celebrate Thanksgiving, the

2:50

beginning of October and then get ourselves

2:52

turned around towards advent. But

2:54

regardless of Canadian, American,

2:56

anywhere in the world right now, giving thanks

2:59

is very

3:02

tender and complicated. In the

3:04

midst of war

3:06

and unknown future and

3:09

increasing polarization and

3:12

our own complicated

3:14

stories. I think the idea of coming

3:17

we look at Thanksgiving as a date on the

3:19

calendar, something that we do. But

3:21

what does it look like to have a posture

3:24

of thanksgiving in a very

3:26

fractured, polarized

3:29

world? And when our own hearts are breaking

3:32

and I think that I just always

3:34

turn back to Scripture, and

3:36

where is the first time we actually see

3:38

Thanksgiving in Scripture?

3:42

And it's actually mentioned as a Thanksgiving offering.

3:44

And actually that Thanksgiving offering

3:47

was part of the peace

3:49

offering, and which seems

3:52

particularly poignant

3:55

this time of year when we just

3:57

see so many global,

4:02

all kinds of conflict. What does it look like to give

4:04

thanks and find peace in the midst

4:06

of all of this? And really, it's

4:09

that scripture telling us is that no one actually really receives

4:11

the peace of God without

4:13

giving thanks to God. And what does

4:16

that actually look like?

4:18

There were actually ten offerings of bread

4:21

in Everything's Offerings for the Israelites.

4:23

And the first, the first of those offerings

4:25

was like crackers, like the second is like

4:27

wafers. And they were just known for like,

4:30

thinness. And that

4:32

was for the Israelites was the order of thanksgiving.

4:35

And the thanks began for

4:37

the thin things, the way for things that

4:39

almost like like they weren't there, like non-existent.

4:42

And the way the people of God give thanks

4:44

is for us to give thanks for even

4:47

the meager and the unlikely.

4:50

And then, only then, it

4:52

was this Thanksgiving for the leavened

4:54

bread, and you kind of wonder, looking

4:56

back at the Israelites like leaven and yeast,

4:58

that scene in Scripture is like the

5:01

impure or the unwanted. Why would leaven

5:03

be included as part of the thanks offering?

5:06

And to realize as we get

5:08

to Thanksgiving, we sit around those tables

5:11

to realize that authentic thanks

5:13

is always for all things,

5:16

because God is actually

5:18

kneading all things into

5:20

goodness, kneading all things into

5:22

a bread that sustains we.

5:26

We don't give thanks to God

5:29

because of how we feel. We

5:32

give thanks because of who God is.

5:34

And it's a it's a sacrifice

5:37

of thanksgiving and a sacrifice.

5:40

It means to sacrifice our understanding

5:42

of what is good, sacrifice our understanding

5:44

of what is beneficial, and to thank

5:47

God in the midst of everything. Because he's

5:49

benevolent and he

5:51

is a good kid. So

5:53

we gather around those Thanksgiving tables this

5:55

year. Can we think about,

5:57

okay, if I want to be part

6:00

of a peace story in the world right now,

6:02

a shalom story in the world, can

6:04

I bring my offering of thanks, my

6:06

offering of things for for meager things,

6:09

then things that don't even look like they exist?

6:11

Will it be my my sacrifice of

6:13

thanksgiving that I am?

6:16

I'm sacrificing my understanding of what is good and

6:18

trusting that God is going to take even the things that

6:20

I don't think are gifts, even the things that I

6:22

don't think are good. Can I give

6:24

thanks for those? Because I am trusting in

6:26

the goodness of God, the character of God that he

6:28

is redeeming.

6:29

Even this which

6:32

is which is so challenging

6:35

at times. Yes, and. Donna

6:37

and I were just sitting down yesterday, and we're looking

6:40

we're looking at the holidays. So no, this this program

6:42

will air the Saturday right

6:44

after Thanksgiving. And we're trying to plan

6:46

what happens after that. So and the reason

6:48

we're trying to plan this is that my

6:50

my mother is a widow over

6:53

as of two months ago. Her mother is a widow as

6:55

of last week. And so

6:57

we're trying to figure out.

6:59

So much grief and.

7:01

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's like so.

7:03

And you're also trying to figure out you don't want your, you

7:05

don't want your, your newly widowed mother's,

7:08

hers and mine to be alone on Christmas.

7:10

Yet you also know there's going to be processing

7:12

that's there. So, you know,

7:14

times of grief, you've walked through grief. We've

7:16

we've all kind of experienced some level of that.

7:18

And the holidays for a lot of our listeners is

7:21

a time that they dread because

7:23

of grief. So yeah,

7:26

but how do we walk through, how do we walk through

7:28

a verse that says, be in all

7:30

things, give thanks, you

7:32

know, rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give

7:34

thanks in all circumstances. For this is the will of God

7:36

in Christ Jesus for you. First Thessalonians 1516

7:39

through 18. How do we

7:41

do that? That's a bit a beautiful part of what you've written,

7:44

even in your own journey.

7:46

Well, I think, yes,

7:48

my own journey, actually,

7:50

my own journey, Ed, begins

7:53

with so much grief. My very first memory

7:55

is being four

7:57

years old, standing at the kitchen

7:59

sink with my mother, washing dishes, looking out

8:01

the kitchen sink window, and

8:03

in front of both my mother and I, my little

8:05

18 month old sister was

8:08

walking across the farmyard after a stray cat

8:10

and a service truck in

8:12

her farmyard didn't see her and and

8:16

ran over her and crushed and killed her in

8:18

front of my mother and I and I

8:20

as a young child, the world

8:23

was an incredibly terrifying

8:25

place where the most incomprehensible,

8:27

horrific things could happen right in front of

8:29

your eyes. I grew up as a very

8:31

terrified child,

8:34

and by the time I was in my,

8:36

I had an ulcer by the time I was in grade

8:39

two and was hospitalized for the ulcer.

8:41

And by the time I was in my teens, I was cutting

8:43

through my teens. I

8:47

was diagnosed with agoraphobia,

8:49

having panic attacks by

8:51

the time I was 19 just really

8:54

struggled with fear,

8:57

terror, and a

8:59

story that really started with so much grief and

9:01

trauma and realizing

9:04

that if I can, there

9:06

is always, always, always something

9:09

to be thankful for. Someone dared me. Could I write

9:11

down 100 things I was

9:13

that I loved? And as I started to write down 100 things that I

9:15

loved, I realized, oh, what I'm actually doing is I'm

9:17

giving thanks right now. And

9:19

I took the dare to write out a thousand things

9:21

I loved, a thousand gifts, and

9:24

realizing that you can't simultaneously

9:27

feel fear and

9:29

gratitude at the same time.

9:32

And I think in the midst of loss

9:34

and grief, how do we find

9:36

even one small thing

9:39

to be grateful for? There is always, always,

9:41

always something

9:43

in the midst of the dark to be

9:45

grateful for. And that that

9:48

gratitude for one small thing, everything

9:50

ultimately compounds. If we can go ahead and

9:52

find one small thing to be grateful for,

9:54

there's a little bit of light in

9:56

the dark that is moving us

9:58

to see that. Oh look, the Lord

10:01

is here at work. He is redeeming

10:03

all of this and so many people

10:05

over the last 12 years, since

10:07

I've written 1000 gifts and

10:11

more than a million and a half other crazy people

10:13

decided to pick up a pen and start writing down a

10:15

thousand things that they were grateful for. To so

10:18

many people said, you know, I so

10:21

many people I've met face to face have confessed,

10:23

you know, I was dealing with so much loss

10:26

and so much grief. I really couldn't see my way through.

10:28

I I've sat with people who said, you know, I,

10:30

I had a gun in my hand and really

10:33

wanted to end it all. And

10:37

I started the practice of

10:39

picking up a pen instead

10:41

and starting to write down, could I find

10:44

just one thing a day that

10:46

I was grateful for? And

10:49

you turn back to Scripture

10:51

and we see. We

10:53

see those ten lepers who

10:56

the Lord had healed, and they went off

10:58

out into the world, and only one comes

11:00

back to

11:02

give thanks. Only one

11:05

comes back and

11:08

threw himself at Jesus feet and

11:10

give thanks. And he was the Samaritan. And

11:12

and Jesus says, you know, weren't weren't

11:15

all ten cleansed? Were the other nine?

11:17

Why is no one found to return

11:19

and give thanks except this foreigner?

11:21

And then Jesus says, rise and

11:23

go. Your faith has

11:25

made you well.

11:29

And I think in the midst of grief and

11:31

loss and overwhelm

11:34

and a very crazy world,

11:36

what does it look? Like to be

11:39

well when our hearts are

11:41

breaking. And

11:43

the actual original language, that word, well, it's

11:45

sozo when it means wholeness

11:47

and and completeness.

11:52

Jesus. Jesus is saying that if

11:54

we want to live the full life,

11:56

the well life, we need sozo and

11:58

he came to give us that. And

12:01

when do we receive that?

12:04

When we return and give

12:06

thanks. That

12:08

is actually your faith has saved you.

12:10

You are made well when we

12:12

return to Thanksgiving,

12:14

when we return to Jesus.

12:17

And I am so thankful, Lord, for you.

12:19

I'm so thankful we, in the midst of

12:21

our grief and our loss and the darkness.

12:24

If we can remember the one thing we can

12:26

always, always, always give thanks

12:28

for is Jesus Christ Himself.

12:32

If we can return to he has given us I

12:34

the only son, how will he not give it? Also

12:36

give us all the other things that we

12:38

need in that is wellness and wholeness.

12:43

We're getting into a conversation with Ambrose Camp in just

12:45

a moment. And again, this is a pre-recorded episode,

12:47

and so we're not taking your calls, but we're having an important

12:49

conversation about Thanksgiving and gratitude. Stay

12:51

with us as we continue our conversation with an Bos

12:54

camp.

13:05

Okay, we're back at Center Live.

13:07

As I mentioned at the end of the last segment, we're actually

13:09

in a pre-recorded program. It's

13:11

Thanksgiving weekend here in America.

13:13

Thanksgiving, by the way, is in October for our Canadian

13:15

friends like Anne Voss Camp and Donna Spitzer, my

13:17

wife and my kids. Anyway, so

13:20

we're it's a great time to reflect

13:22

on issues of gratitude and thanksgiving

13:24

and more. And if you're just joining

13:26

us and start off sharing some of our own story, when

13:28

I encourage you to to listen through

13:30

that conversation as well. And really,

13:32

how do we find some joy? How do we find thanksgiving

13:35

and gratitude in the midst

13:37

of these, these these difficult and

13:39

often dark times as well?

13:42

It's interesting because we're pre-recording this program.

13:44

We almost don't know what

13:47

bad things are going to happen between now and

13:49

then. And if you in 2019,

13:51

you were predicting a global pandemic and

13:53

a war in Europe and a war in the Middle East, and,

13:56

you know, not probably far from now, a war in

13:58

Asia and more you you are

14:00

quite the predictor of the future. But

14:02

we don't know yet. We know that that

14:05

walking through a broken and hurting

14:07

world leads to brokenness

14:10

and struggle. That's there. But

14:12

also, the holidays are supposed to be a time of great

14:14

joy. They are a time of great joy. You know, our family

14:16

loves the holidays as well.

14:18

But the challenge is, is how do we find

14:21

Christ like living

14:24

and joy in the midst of days when

14:26

they're gritty, long, and just kind of plain

14:28

old hard? So and you've written on

14:30

this, you have a passion for this. And

14:34

again, you know, we can lose focus around these

14:36

holidays as well. I know that, you know, we've

14:39

already just passed Black Friday, the

14:41

Friday after Thanksgiving, which

14:43

is called Black Friday because supposedly stores go into

14:45

the black. So that's not necessarily true, but it sure feels

14:47

like a lot of blackness around consumerism,

14:50

you know, just a darkness around consumerism.

14:52

So talk to us a little bit about

14:54

how we stay focused on the things

14:56

that matter in 2023

14:58

and beyond.

15:00

I think I'm I think you're

15:02

right. I do have a passion for

15:04

what is it? How does it actually change

15:06

our lives? And the last segment we're talking about, Sozo,

15:09

that what is wellness and wholeness looks like.

15:11

And a life of Scripture tells us

15:13

that a life of wellness and wholeness is

15:15

connected to. Do we return to the Lord

15:17

with thanksgiving? If we look at research

15:21

the secular world, overwhelming

15:24

research indicates a life of

15:26

gratitude is integral

15:28

to a life of wellness,

15:30

of wholeness, of happiness. So

15:32

we know that from the research, they actually say that if you go ahead and you

15:34

can pick up your pen and write down even just three

15:37

things a day that you're grateful

15:39

for in three months

15:41

later, if you do that for 30 days, three months

15:43

later, you're going to be 25%

15:45

happier. Who doesn't want 25%

15:48

more happiness for free? If you can pick up and just

15:50

find one, two, three things a

15:52

day to give thanks for. But

15:54

I think sometimes we

15:57

can be cynical. We can be jaded. I know I

15:59

certainly have, and and giving thanks

16:01

can feel like we're being

16:04

pollyannaish that we've got blinders

16:06

on and we don't see the

16:08

true state of the world. And I think it's really important

16:11

as we pick up the pen and start to write

16:13

down the things that we're grateful for, to realize

16:15

that giving thanks is only

16:17

this. It's making the canyon of

16:20

pain that is this world

16:22

into a megaphone to

16:24

proclaim the ultimate

16:26

goodness of God.

16:29

It isn't saying that all is well

16:31

now. It is saying what we read

16:33

in Romans 828. He is working

16:35

all things out together

16:37

for good. When faith gives

16:39

thanks in the middle of

16:42

the story, when we choose to

16:44

go ahead and live into a posture

16:46

of gratitude, what we are saying is

16:48

I am giving thanks for God

16:51

at work in the world. The story

16:53

isn't yet over or finished.

16:56

I think in my own life I have

16:58

too often thought, well,

17:01

I, I

17:04

when I am grateful,

17:06

I will give thanks and that will lead

17:08

to joyfulness. When I have enough good

17:11

circumstances in my life, when

17:13

I can, when everything works

17:15

out the way I would like it to work out,

17:17

then I will give thanks and then I

17:19

will be joyful. But the reality is,

17:22

when we are joyful from our circumstances,

17:24

that isn't what makes us grateful. Ultimately,

17:27

the reality is both from secular

17:29

research indicates, and when we read in Scripture,

17:31

it's when we are grateful.

17:34

That's what makes us joyful. We need to actually

17:36

switch the paradigm around and not

17:38

wait for we're joyful, and then we'll go ahead.

17:40

And because we are grateful, we will give thanks.

17:42

But actually, can I go ahead and switch a go? Now I'm going to

17:44

have a habit, a practice,

17:47

a daily rhythm of looking

17:49

for the goodness of God, looking for

17:51

the gifts. Because being grateful

17:53

is what makes us joyful,

17:56

actually. And I've just I

17:58

just had for days

18:01

retreated into the desert in New

18:03

Mexico. Praying through

18:06

the Psalms and sitting in

18:08

silence for a retreat and

18:10

carrying that posture

18:12

back out to day and sitting

18:14

down with them with the Psalms. And

18:16

actually this morning reading Psalm

18:19

42. And I just thought, oh,

18:21

I so resonated with David as the

18:23

psalmist. Why are you so full of

18:25

heaviness, O my soul? Why are

18:27

you so disquieted within me?

18:30

Whether it's fresh

18:32

grief that we're walking through, whether it's the

18:34

state of the world, whether it's the unknown in

18:36

front of all of us, who doesn't resonate

18:38

with that, then what does the psalmist say? Put

18:41

your trust in God, for

18:43

yet I will yet give.

18:47

I choke up to sing it. I will give

18:50

thanks to him who is the help of

18:52

my countenance and my God.

18:55

Not only does it say it once in

18:57

Psalms 42, it finishes

18:59

off the psalm with again, while

19:01

my bones are being broken, my enemies

19:04

mocked me to my face. All day long

19:06

they mock me and say to me, where are now

19:08

is your God? It's

19:11

almost turns to Saul again and says, why are you so full

19:13

of heaviness, O my soul, why are you so disquieted

19:15

within me? Put your trust in God, for

19:17

I will yet give thanks

19:19

to him who is the help of my countenance,

19:22

and who is my God. What

19:24

brings so, so, so wholeness

19:27

and wellness in the midst of

19:29

our souls? Being completely downcast

19:31

in our hearts, broken over a very broken

19:33

world? Do we have a

19:35

posture, a way

19:37

of life, a rhythm of life that keeps

19:40

us looking for the ways God

19:42

is at work? I think I've learned in my own life

19:44

that I get a choice. It's

19:46

either doxology or

19:48

dark. I get to choose the way of

19:51

Jesus who came at the

19:53

Last Supper, facing

19:55

the cross, which is bearing

19:58

all of the darkness and brokenness

20:00

of all humanity from

20:02

time immemorial on himself.

20:05

The actual apex of darkness.

20:08

And what does Jesus choose to do?

20:11

He does exactly. Just read this

20:13

morning in Psalms 42. He chooses to take

20:15

the bread. I see

20:18

it as grace, give

20:20

thanks for it, and

20:23

then break it and pass that grace on

20:26

out into the world. The

20:28

word in Greek is Eucharistic.

20:31

So can I have a Eucharistic

20:33

life like Jesus? A life

20:35

that gives thanks in the midst of everything?

20:37

A life that chorus does, that word

20:40

grace? Can I go ahead and see everything

20:42

as grace? Eucharist?

20:45

How can I give thanks for

20:47

it? And then therein

20:50

is joy. Cora, I

20:52

think that word right there, if it

20:54

is what Jesus chose to do before

20:57

the cross when he was betrayed,

21:00

I don't have a better way

21:02

to walk into this world, apart

21:04

from the way Jesus chose a Eucharistic

21:06

life of giving thanks said.

21:09

And you just casually mentioned

21:12

that you were in the desert for four days.

21:14

I'm guessing yes. This wasn't like

21:16

this wasn't like Old Testament, like you're not. You know what I

21:18

mean? Water and food. I'm guessing the result.

21:20

No, but it was. But

21:22

we did not. It's the it's the modern

21:24

day version of that. And there was no cell service.

21:27

Oh, yeah. Which is the modern. That's true. How can you live with

21:29

that? So tell us about that a little bit. You know, I

21:31

think people are intrigued because one of the things that

21:34

that you and I were just recently talking about, spiritual

21:36

formation, things of that sort. So this

21:38

is a practice of spiritual formation

21:40

that leads to a sense of centering and gratitude.

21:42

So talk a little bit about what you did there.

21:45

Yeah. So it was four

21:47

days in New Mexico

21:50

when you you leave the main road and you

21:52

drive 13 miles into the desert

21:54

to a monastery of

21:58

somewhere, half a dozen

22:00

15 Benedictine monks

22:03

who live a life

22:05

of prayer, a rhythm

22:07

of beginning at 4 a.m.,

22:10

with vigils to Compline

22:13

at 735 of

22:15

praying the Psalms.

22:17

And we entered into that

22:20

seven times a day.

22:22

I think that's right at 6 or 7 times a day,

22:24

pausing and praying through the Psalms

22:27

and the Psalms, I mean, look, I read

22:29

for there from Psalms 42, the Psalms

22:31

actually encapsulate our

22:33

all of our pleas with gods,

22:35

our questioning of God, our grief,

22:38

our lament, our heartache,

22:40

personally and nationally,

22:43

globally. I mean to pray the Psalms

22:45

to to pause your life

22:48

and pray the Psalms is

22:50

to go ahead and to be honest about what

22:52

it means to be a human in a very

22:54

broken and continually heartbreaking

22:57

world. And yet then how

22:59

do I turn my eyes upon

23:01

God? And yet then the

23:03

psalmist, over and over again it all

23:05

give thanks to the Lord. His love

23:08

is everlasting. It is again

23:11

when we see the. We see the people, the Israelites.

23:13

And you see it again in the Psalms, over and over and over

23:15

again they go ahead and they recollect

23:17

all that God has done

23:20

for them and recount

23:22

it. And I think in

23:24

stopping to count our blessings, we

23:26

are recounting all of

23:28

the ways God's faithfulness has

23:30

met us in the past. So then

23:32

we know who we can count on in the

23:34

future. That we. This is a God we can

23:36

trust in, who will provide

23:38

and be our Jehovah Jireh and grant

23:40

provision for whatever unknown is

23:43

coming in the future. And

23:45

when we come to that table of the Last Supper,

23:47

and Jesus gives bread and gives thanks,

23:50

and passes the grace on out into

23:52

the world, he asks us, do

23:54

this in remembrance of me.

23:57

Do what? Yes. Remember

23:59

his sacrifice in the cross? Yes. Remember

24:01

it with thanksgiving. Live with such Thanksgiving.

24:04

Because no matter what else happens in the world,

24:06

he has given us himself

24:08

to to not only cover

24:10

our sins, but to start the great

24:12

revolution that starts to make all of the bad

24:14

things, the sad things, come untrue.

24:17

To redeem the cosmos,

24:19

we can. There's always something to give thanks

24:21

for. Ultimately and holy. It is

24:24

all in Christ who sacrificed

24:26

himself for us. So then,

24:29

if that is what he's asked us to keep

24:31

remembering every time

24:33

we give thanks in a broken

24:35

world where our hearts are continually

24:37

breaking, that act of

24:39

giving thanks is actually

24:42

remembering us,

24:44

putting back our broken parts

24:47

and pieces of ourselves together

24:49

to say, look at God is holding it all. God

24:51

is redeeming it all. God is making

24:54

all things well in the world.

24:56

That is so, so remembering

24:59

to give thanks, remembering

25:02

to recount our blessings,

25:05

remembers the broken parts of

25:07

us, which brings us to wholeness

25:09

and sozo in Christ alone.

25:11

Which is why we started this conversation

25:14

off talking about what the Thanksgiving

25:16

offering was before the peace offering. When

25:18

we give thanks, we are

25:21

remembered, brought to sozo wholeness,

25:23

which is ultimately shalom wholeness.

25:27

Fascinating. We're going to continue our conversation with Ross

25:29

Kemp. I think you'll be encouraged as

25:32

one of the things she talked about doing a gratitude list. We'll talk

25:34

about that as well as we continue

25:36

our conversation. You're listening to Spencer Live. This

25:38

is a prerecorded episode, so you

25:40

can't call him, but nevertheless, some great

25:42

content from my friend of many years

25:44

and Ross Kemp. And what encourage you to continue

25:47

to listen. Stay with us as we talk about

25:49

Thanksgiving and gratitude this American Thanksgiving

25:51

weekend. Hey,

26:06

we're back with my friend and Voss camp.

26:09

She's written Waymaker finding the way to

26:11

the life you always dreamed of. I guess

26:13

we're kind of circling a bit around her book,

26:15

1000 Gifts A Dare to Live Fully

26:17

Right Where You Are. But part of

26:19

why we're doing that is we're talking about the idea of

26:21

being thankful for what we received and

26:23

more. One of the things that

26:26

you've talked about doing and you've mentioned already, but

26:28

is keeping a gratitude list. So

26:30

if you don't mind, because we're Thanksgiving weekend,

26:33

we're kind of hopefully looking at a time for

26:36

thankfulness when the rest of the world

26:38

can get caught up in consumption and

26:40

consumerism around the holidays, basically

26:42

the Christmas holidays. What are some of the benefits

26:45

of keeping a gratitude list,

26:47

and how would you encourage people to even start that process?

26:50

Well, I think this is a perfect time

26:52

to actually talk about it, because

26:55

Thanksgiving isn't just to

26:57

be a holiday, it's meant to be

26:59

all of our days. It's meant to be the posture

27:01

and the way that we actually live our

27:03

lives. You mentioned Waymaker, the

27:07

book that I wrote that really talks about more than just

27:09

wanting a way to something.

27:11

Do we have a way of

27:13

life that keeps us in the way

27:16

himself? And in that book

27:18

I talk about is an acronym

27:20

that has become my way of life a

27:23

I a journaling practice, a

27:25

a way I try to keep my mind

27:27

thinking through sacred. That

27:29

acronym and the D of

27:31

sacred is actually doxology.

27:33

So yes, ed for the

27:35

last oh, it must be almost

27:37

15 years now. I have kept a daily practice

27:40

of going ahead and picking

27:43

up a pen and writing down the things I'm grateful

27:45

for. Martin Luther says

27:47

that Satan hates

27:49

the use of pens, and

27:52

I always see it as when I pick up that pen to

27:54

go ahead and write down the things I'm grateful for, that

27:56

this is my sword that I am using

27:58

to to wield, to fight

28:00

for joy. Because the joy

28:02

of the Lord is our strength. And if I lose my joy

28:04

in him, I lose my

28:07

strength. In

28:09

this day in moving forward. So how do I go

28:11

ahead and pick up that pen, write down the things that

28:13

I'm grateful for, because joy

28:16

is actually always a function of gratitude.

28:18

And gratitude is always a function of

28:20

perspective. And we often think that gratitude

28:22

is actually a function of circumstances. And

28:25

it's not. If I can shift my

28:27

perspective to see things

28:29

to be grateful for, that actually is what

28:31

moves me towards joyfulness and

28:33

actually does change my interior internal

28:36

circumstances. So actually they say if you if

28:39

you can go ahead and pick up a pen, write down three things

28:41

a day that you're grateful for. It is actually going

28:43

to lower your cortisol levels. That's

28:45

those stress levels. It's going to go ahead and bring down

28:47

your blood pressure. The people that go

28:49

ahead. And this to me, this is

28:51

wild. People that go ahead and practice gratitude

28:53

are actually going to live on average

28:55

seven years longer than people

28:58

who don't. So I can't.

29:00

But I'm actually going to pick up a pen and give

29:02

thanks. And actually this

29:05

we just actually released a

29:07

little book called Gratitude and

29:09

Beatitudes. That is a new practice

29:11

for me to go ahead and write down the things I'm grateful for.

29:13

It kind of is formatted, you know, like

29:15

those five year diaries

29:18

where you go ahead and write out what happened

29:20

today, and then like next year, you're going to revisit

29:23

it on that same date, and then the next year with the

29:25

the payback. And seeing is like, you have

29:27

to keep writing out the your diary

29:29

for a full year to come back around. So we

29:31

actually reformatted it. The concept

29:34

is that it's by month. So I

29:36

write down what I'm grateful for this

29:38

day in November, and then I will revisit

29:40

that same page in December,

29:42

and then on the same date and the

29:44

next in January, so that you are

29:47

actually going to be seeing the things that you were

29:49

grateful for each day

29:51

of the previous month, on the 10th

29:53

of the month of the 12th of the month or whatever. And I

29:55

have found that it's actually been

29:57

doing two things. Number one, I want to

29:59

keep writing down the things I'm grateful for because I don't

30:01

want to miss it, because I don't want to get to that day the next month. And

30:03

I didn't write down what I was grateful for. So it's actually

30:05

this motivational factor all the time.

30:08

But also it is. It's

30:10

building right into a gratitude

30:13

journal. Part of the power

30:15

of writing down what you're grateful for is you see.

30:17

Oh, look. Look how God has continually

30:19

provided. And he has

30:22

been Jehovah Jireh and so provisional. Thus

30:24

I can count on him and it actually grows

30:27

my trust muscle this practice

30:29

of gratitude. But if you don't have a

30:31

way that you're constantly reviewing the things that you're grateful

30:33

for, you really aren't building that trust

30:35

muscle in him. And this way of going ahead and

30:37

writing down the things you're grateful for, you look every time.

30:39

Oh, look at I was grateful for this back in July

30:42

on this date, and I was grateful for this in August of

30:44

this day. And it is a way

30:46

to literally do what we see

30:48

the Israelites doing, what we see David

30:50

and the Psalms doing. It is a way to recollect

30:53

and remember the past goodness

30:55

of God, which then, as we've

30:57

mentioned, remembers us, puts us back

30:59

together and grows our courage

31:02

and our hope in the future.

31:04

So for me, I mean,

31:07

I think this past summer I came across

31:10

in my travels and

31:12

speaking, there were three women

31:14

this summer who all must have started counting

31:17

right when the book came out, because they were all between

31:19

28,000 and 31,000

31:22

things that they had given thanks for since

31:24

they started reading

31:26

1000 gifts when it was first released, and writing out

31:28

the gratitude journals. But I think when you go

31:30

ahead and for me, after all these years writing

31:33

out the things I was grateful for, it's been very powerful

31:35

to have a built in way where I am constantly

31:38

reviewing the past things

31:40

that I have been grateful for, because

31:42

I think gratitude is more than

31:44

a feeling. It is an actual

31:46

posture and a way

31:48

of living. And if I can get up in the morning

31:50

and start with my scripture reading and

31:52

my time of prayer when I moved to journaling,

31:55

I'm going to start with gratitude. Starting the day with a

31:57

grateful heart is

31:59

the is the way you your

32:01

day moves towards having a joyful

32:03

heart throughout the day. And ultimately what

32:05

you focus on is what you become like.

32:08

And my default.

32:10

Like we are just wired, we have this bias

32:13

towards negativity. We have a bias towards threat.

32:15

We have a bias towards what is the next terrible

32:17

thing that could be coming at us, so that we need to be prepared

32:19

for it. But when you go ahead and you have

32:21

a gratitude journal and you're practicing

32:24

this habit of giving thanks, you're

32:26

focusing on the good and you'll see more

32:28

good everywhere to focus on. You're actually

32:30

training your brain against

32:33

that negative bias that we all

32:35

naturally have towards looking

32:37

towards. Look, this is how God is at work,

32:39

and that's the kind of training I need to keep working

32:41

on day by day by day, because

32:43

this is actually what's going to expand

32:46

my joy and just realizing

32:49

that no amount

32:51

of regret changes the past.

32:54

No amount of anxiety is going to

32:56

change all of that unknown future that we keep talking

32:58

about. But any amount

33:00

of grateful joy for the gift

33:03

right now is going to change the present

33:05

moment.

33:06

First thing I think when I think of you, I

33:08

think of ongoing growth

33:10

in all these areas. So I find you encouraging

33:13

you. You provoke me to love and good deeds.

33:15

As the writer of Hebrews says, you know, we

33:18

did together this master's degree. You

33:20

just finished your master's degree, Wheaton College, but

33:22

you're continuing to want to lean in and study

33:24

and grow. You're

33:27

talking about future options as well. So why?

33:29

Why is that? Why why are you on this

33:31

learning journey?

33:33

I honestly, when

33:36

I think back, it started

33:38

with gratitude. I really

33:40

do believe, truly believe that gratitude

33:42

plants this small seed. Because what happens

33:44

is when you're giving thanks, when

33:46

you're giving thanks, what you're doing is you are focusing

33:49

on the grace and the goodness

33:51

of God, and that it seems

33:53

like a contemplative act to do,

33:55

but actually it's it becomes

33:58

an activist. You become an activist.

34:00

That contemplation moves you towards

34:02

activism because the grace

34:04

you are. So you

34:07

focus so much on the grace you become.

34:09

Anyone who has become radically grateful

34:12

becomes a radical to pass

34:14

that grace on out into the world.

34:17

And so it has moved me towards

34:19

here. I have so many gifts that I have been given.

34:21

How can I not then move those those

34:24

grace, those gifts on out into the world? How

34:26

do I then not be? How

34:28

do I not? That gratitude is actually

34:30

grown me towards wanting

34:33

to live a more Eucharistic life, a

34:35

life that is more cruciform, a

34:37

life that is formed and shaped like Jesus.

34:40

Jesus, who took the bread, gave

34:42

thanks. And what did he do? He broke it

34:44

and passed that grace on out into those into

34:46

the world. That that form

34:50

and shape of the cross has actually become the way I

34:52

want to live my life. Everything that comes down

34:54

from above, that horizontal,

34:57

that vertical beam of the cross, everything that comes

34:59

down. I then want to turn around and give

35:01

thanks for that. My Thanksgiving can rise up to

35:03

him. Then those horizontal

35:05

beams in the cross can't take all the grace that he's given me.

35:07

And pass it on out in. To the world.

35:10

I want to be shaped and formed

35:12

like Jesus. It's a Eucharistic way

35:14

of living what he did there, the Last Supper. It's

35:16

a cruciform way of living. So

35:19

yes, I am. I am hopeful,

35:21

prayerful, actually. Just yesterday,

35:25

when I departed from my four days in the desert,

35:28

I got notification that all of my

35:31

transcripts of my forms have been submitted to tell

35:33

that applying for the doctoral in

35:35

spiritual Formation at Tobit. So, Lord

35:37

willing, this process will only continue to

35:39

continue.

35:40

Oh, I love the ongoing learning. Continue our

35:42

conversation with Anne Vos camp. We got one final segment. Remember,

35:44

this is a pre-recorded show, so we're not taking your

35:46

calls, but we're having a great conversation with my

35:48

friend Anne Vos camp. Stay with us. Our conversation

35:50

about gratitude and thanksgiving. Hey!

36:04

We're back. One final segment with

36:07

our Thanksgiving weekend show.

36:10

I keep saying American Thanksgiving because. Because

36:12

Ann and my family are Canadian as

36:14

well, so. But American Thanksgiving family, it's a

36:16

time of gratitude. It's a time of consumption.

36:19

It's a time of stretchy pants.

36:21

It's depending how much you eat at Thanksgiving

36:23

and more. But this show

36:25

is actually airing the day two days after Thanksgiving.

36:28

We've had Black Friday, and so it has been

36:30

opportunity to say, you know, how do we redirect from

36:33

getting caught up in the things

36:35

and the ways of the world,

36:37

and just shared and shared about her

36:39

coming into the program at the Tablet School of Theology

36:42

to study spiritual formation.

36:44

And we're super excited to to have you

36:46

do that. And and you've got

36:49

wonderful. The wonderful team here is

36:51

going to go on this wonderful spiritual journey with

36:54

the Spiritual Formation Program. Actually, spiritual formation

36:56

is one of the key markers of

36:58

our program here at the

37:00

Tablet School of Theology. One of the things I quickly learned

37:02

is that we're very much out of the norm in all

37:04

of our programs, have a very strong

37:06

kind of spiritual formation component.

37:09

And in a world where we've seen a lot of pastors

37:11

and Christian leaders stumble,

37:13

fall, maybe their ability

37:16

was stronger than their character, and

37:18

eventually that caught up with them. For

37:21

Christians who maybe are struggling

37:24

with kind of growing in

37:26

maturity and therefore maturity

37:28

comes wisdom, why do

37:30

spiritual formation practices,

37:33

why do they matter? Why do they appeal to you? And why

37:35

do they matter for Christians today? Because not, you know, not

37:37

everyone's going to come to the demon like you're going to do

37:39

at Talbert. But everyone

37:41

needs to tend to the state

37:44

of their soul and their spiritual life.

37:46

Considering how often we

37:48

struggle in the world, help us understand why that

37:50

matters and how to respond.

37:52

I think I'm, I think we

37:54

we well, I'm not a pastor

37:56

or maybe I'm not in lay ministry.

37:59

Spiritual formation doesn't apply to me. Well,

38:02

I would invite you to pause and

38:04

think every thing around

38:06

us is forming us one way or

38:08

the other. Everything that we read,

38:10

everything on our screens, everything

38:13

that all of our social media that is coming

38:15

at us, our music that is coming at us, everything

38:18

in this world is forming us

38:20

towards God or

38:22

away from God, forming us to

38:24

conform moment into the image and likeness of

38:27

Christ, or forming us malformed

38:29

in a way that distorts who we

38:31

are made to be. So

38:35

what are we? What practices? We've

38:37

talked about this throughout the program, and what

38:39

practices, what way of life do we have,

38:41

whether it's getting up in the morning and what's

38:44

the first thing do we turn to do? We turn to our phones and the screens

38:46

or do we silence? And still

38:49

we're talking about my way of life.

38:51

Sacred was my acronym that first that's

38:54

of sacred for me. Stillness.

38:56

Do I go ahead and still all of

38:58

the noise and turn

39:01

my heart, my attention, my mind?

39:03

Do the things of God? Do I open up scripture? Do

39:06

I sit with the word and allow this

39:08

word, the living

39:10

Word of God, to go ahead and

39:12

form me to take captive

39:14

every thought and make it obedient

39:16

to Christ? Do I let what Scripture

39:18

says holy text, go

39:21

ahead and shape me more like Jesus?

39:23

Or do I not have

39:25

ways, rhythms, habits

39:28

of life, spiritual disciplines per

39:30

se that keep me in the word but

39:32

actually distract me away

39:34

from the things of Jesus? So I would

39:36

just as we I

39:39

mean really, as we move from Thanksgiving

39:42

November into the holiday season,

39:44

advent, the it's really

39:46

a season of reflection, reflection on the end of the year.

39:49

Advent being a time of waiting. Might

39:52

you take time and see this

39:55

this holiday season holiday

39:57

holy days as

39:59

an invitation to pause and

40:02

say what? What are my rhythms and practices

40:04

that are forming me more into the

40:06

image of Christ so that my life does look

40:08

more cruciform, more shaped like a cross?

40:11

And do I have rhythms that are

40:14

that are not about consuming

40:16

the next thing, but rhythms

40:18

that say what the Lord has given me

40:20

is enough. He's given me Jesus. I'm going to focus

40:23

and fix my gaze on him. I'm going to pick up a pen and

40:25

start writing down all the things that I'm grateful for,

40:27

that the Lord is at work doing good in the

40:29

world. That we

40:31

started this program thinking about was the first time we

40:33

see Thanksgiving in Scripture.

40:36

We also think about the

40:38

Israelites not just coming

40:40

with their thanksgiving offering, their peace offering, but

40:42

the Israelites at Passover. And for

40:45

more than a thousand years, the Jewish people. What have

40:47

they sung at their celebration feast

40:49

of Passover? They sing. There's one word day.

40:51

I'm not sure I'm going to say this right at de

40:53

New Day. De menu.

40:56

And it literally means it

40:58

would have been enough if God had brought

41:00

us out of Egypt. It alone would have been enough.

41:02

Enough for us to be thankful for. Danu.

41:05

If God had slain their firstborn

41:07

and not given the

41:09

given us their substance, it alone would have been enough to

41:11

been thanked before. If got a part of the Red sea for

41:13

us alone, and we'd walk through

41:15

a dark ground, it alone would have been enough

41:17

for us to be thankful for day. When

41:20

we get to Thanksgiving. Culture

41:22

would like to tell us it has not been enough

41:24

for us to be thankful for what has already been given.

41:26

We now move into Black Friday

41:29

and a million things we have to go and consume

41:31

because we don't have enough. And

41:33

maybe today, can we create

41:35

even just a bit of time? Yes, sometimes

41:37

there's wisdom we need to go ahead, and we want

41:40

to go ahead and take the gifts

41:42

and grace that we've been given and pass it on. And we want

41:44

to give gifts out into the world. So there might be a point

41:46

in time today where something is on sale, and it's a good time

41:48

to go ahead and buy it so we can be a wise stewards

41:50

of the gifts that the Lord has given us. But

41:52

also today. Can there be a sometime

41:55

this weekend? This season

41:58

I am going to make space

42:00

to pause in

42:02

the chaos and the busyness and in

42:04

the dark. And

42:06

they come before the cross,

42:08

the feet of Jesus and just

42:10

say, Lord, because you gave Jesus

42:12

Christ your son, he alone

42:15

is enough. I have a heart of gratitude

42:17

because I have you

42:19

yourself with me here.

42:21

Communion. That's the ultimate feast.

42:24

You know, there's something countercultural

42:27

about that right now.

42:29

Like, it's almost like in January, we should be having this

42:32

conversation. Like, this should be a New Year's resolution.

42:34

But I wanted to have you on because

42:37

I think what a beautiful countercultural

42:39

gospel picture it is when we actually

42:41

push against. You

42:43

know, and again, it's we still I was just

42:45

looking over my calendar because you were planning these things

42:47

I mentioned in the beginning, kind of planning some family things

42:50

because of the loss of family members and more.

42:52

And I looked at my Christmas parties

42:54

I have I got a Christmas party at church. I got

42:56

a Christmas party at Biola Talbert,

42:58

I got Christmas parties with family,

43:00

and it was almost like, oh, you know,

43:02

I can't, you know, I got I didn't I didn't turn

43:04

into the Scrooge, but enough that I was like,

43:06

there's just a lot. So

43:09

if this is a time and somebody is hearing this

43:11

conversation and they want to want to

43:13

lean into this,

43:16

these spiritual practices around what

43:18

is for many people the busiest time of the year. But

43:20

also, I mean, there are rhythms. You've mentioned

43:22

advent several times. There are rhythms that

43:24

are for you right now

43:27

that you could take a countercultural

43:29

moment and walk into a journey of spiritual

43:31

formation, gratitude, and more.

43:33

So how how would you

43:35

exhort them, or should they wait till January? You

43:37

know, everyone right now is saying, I got an email

43:39

the other day from somebody just yesterday said, well, let's swing

43:41

back around after the holidays. Should we swing

43:44

back around after the holidays to talk about our spiritual

43:46

formation, or how can we lean in now?

43:48

I think it's leaning in now because oftentimes

43:51

we know what leads to joyfulness. Secular

43:53

research will tell us that they'll have different words for it.

43:55

But here's the words I will go ahead and use. They think you

43:57

have to move your body. You need to exercise.

43:59

You need to. They'd say you need gratitude. Well,

44:02

do we need to move our hands into a posture

44:04

of praise? So move your body, move

44:06

your hands into a posture of praise. They would say

44:08

mindfulness. I would say you need it's prayer fulness.

44:10

Can you move your heart towards Jesus? Do you have

44:13

a space and time where I'm just going to go ahead and I'm

44:15

going to move my mind towards Christ in

44:17

prayer. And then research would

44:19

say, you need sleep. So we

44:21

would say, we're not going to move the

44:24

why don't we go ahead? And when things start

44:26

to get crazy, like during the holidays, that's the

44:28

exact point in time when we actually need to do these

44:30

things more, not do these things

44:32

less. So I would encourage you during

44:35

when we move from Thanksgiving into advent

44:37

and this time of the year, well, you

44:39

can actually pick up that book, Gratitude and Beatitudes,

44:41

because that is undated. You can start the practice. So you're ready

44:43

for January the 1st. You can

44:46

start that practice of giving thanks.

44:48

You could pick up the waymaker. And that is all about

44:50

having a sacred way of life. Do you have this rhythm

44:52

that starts with stillness every day, the S

44:54

of sacred and ends with doxology?

44:56

Because we get to choose doxology or start or

44:59

I have three Christmas books that you could

45:01

pick those up and move through advent, where I'm keeping

45:04

company with Christ, where

45:06

I am going ahead, and he he

45:09

keeps him in perfect peace. His mind is stayed on him.

45:11

Do you have a way of life, a practice of life

45:13

that is going to keep your mind stayed on him, whether it's

45:15

giving thanks to him, whether it's going

45:17

ahead and reading the Scripture each day through

45:19

the month of December, through advent,

45:21

this thing like, okay, Jesus, the coming of Jesus

45:23

was foretold all through the Old Testament. All of these

45:25

stories through the Old Testament are pointing to the coming

45:27

of Christ. So you are preparing your heart for

45:30

he who is the greatest gift, so

45:32

you don't miss him on Christmas morning.

45:34

What we need is these these practices

45:37

that are forming us

45:39

more into the image of Jesus, that are practices

45:41

that are keeping our eyes fixed on

45:44

the one that we are ultimately the

45:46

most grateful for, Jesus Christ Himself.

45:49

You know, I love when

45:51

Anne Vos camp talks and shares, and I love to

45:53

read and camp. And so, you know,

45:55

when we mentioned these books, these are like books that are at

45:57

our house that we have read together, Don and I

45:59

have read and shared. So I really do want to encourage

46:01

you. If you go to our live.com, there's a link to all

46:03

the books that we've mentioned here as well. You can also Google

46:06

Anne as well. But what I encourage you to pick

46:08

up some of those books and resources, and this is

46:10

the time to lean in on your spiritual formation,

46:12

because if you can function countercultural,

46:14

living a cruciform life right now in the midst

46:17

of the holidays, this can shape your

46:19

life years to come. So lean

46:21

into this right now. So thank you to Envoy Camp

46:23

for being our guest. Thanks to our behind

46:25

the scenes team at Moody Radio. Karen Hendren,

46:27

my producer and engineer, has

46:30

been Courtney Young. To hear today's program

46:32

again, you'll go to Ed Stetson Live.com or

46:34

on the Moody Radio app. Connect with us through social media.

46:36

That's R live. And remember, Ed Stetson Live

46:38

is a production of Moody Radio ministry

46:41

of Moody Bible Institute. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving. Let's

46:43

make much of Jesus the rest of this holiday

46:45

season. Thanks for listening.