0:08

Well. Good day. It's. It's alive.

0:10

And I'm at Stetson and I'm broadcasting to you

0:12

live from my studio here at Mariner's Church

0:14

in Southern California. And, uh,

0:17

for many of you who are listening, who are on the

0:19

Moody Network, we're on different networks sometimes,

0:21

but most of you overlap. You heard our,

0:23

uh, Mike Ferrera's just beforehand hosting

0:25

an open line with, uh, as

0:28

he does when he fills in sometimes. And he actually is recording

0:30

from Southern California, broadcast from Southern California. So

0:32

it's a it's a moody radio partner,

0:34

an affiliate of Southern California. Morning. And

0:36

so glad to have you with us as as

0:38

well. It did rain this week. So we

0:41

really, really were very sad because we never get

0:43

rain here. So I know, I know it's still 75

0:45

degrees and but it did rain this week. So

0:47

just keep in mind that we're kind of in a

0:49

sad season here. Like not being able to go

0:51

out and go for walks every day anyway.

0:54

Just have a little fun. As a former guy, I used to live in Chicago

0:56

for seven years there at Wheaton College, but now I am

0:58

the the dean and a professor

1:00

at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola

1:02

University. And for today I am.

1:04

And every Saturday I'm your host here.

1:06

And that's her live. And our guest today is going to help

1:08

us to understand the Bible, not

1:10

just about its content, but more

1:12

about its maybe our origin and why

1:15

it matters in its journey and more. Our

1:17

guest today is Rob Suggs. He's

1:19

written and collaborated on more than 60 books.

1:22

Among them are Christmas eight, My Family,

1:24

The Comic Book Bible, and The

1:26

Book That Conquered Time. The Book That Conquered time is going to be what

1:28

we talk about today. We actually have five

1:30

copies. We're going to give away not just random

1:32

folks calling up saying I want a book, but to brilliant

1:34

and insightful callers, as you always

1:37

are. He's an experienced teacher and preacher,

1:39

and has led a four part seminar on how the Bible

1:41

came to be. Also wrote the Life

1:43

Guide, Bible Studies, Ten Commandments,

1:45

and Christian Community. So

1:47

super glad to have you Rob here to talk about

1:49

the well, the book that conquered time.

1:52

And fascinatingly, you actually trace

1:54

the history of the creation

1:56

of the Bible. I think a lot of people,

1:59

um, maybe, I mean, maybe me, maybe

2:01

me, when I was a new believer, kind of perceived

2:03

that the Bible maybe came

2:05

down on, well, maybe Golden

2:07

plates, but that's a different religion, but

2:09

came down somehow, all connected and

2:12

completed. Then later I found out it wasn't

2:14

one book, but it was 66 books. And later I found out

2:16

that it spans centuries of time. So

2:18

let's jump in. And just why

2:21

do you think it's important for us to understand

2:23

the history of how the Bible

2:25

came to be?

2:27

Well, thanks for having me. First of all, Ed.

2:29

Um, I wrote this book because

2:31

I wanted to write a kind of biography

2:34

of the Bible. Like you'd write a biography

2:36

of any famous person. I

2:38

felt like I wanted to introduce it to people who

2:41

don't know it. And it's interesting that

2:43

you said your perception

2:45

of it as a new Christian was that it came down on

2:47

a golden plate, all formed

2:49

and ready and connected in 66

2:52

books. Um, I think most

2:54

people today it's more the opposite.

2:56

They are highly suspicious

2:58

of it, and they

3:00

kind of keep themselves at a distance

3:03

because they're afraid that it's going to

3:05

pop like a bubble. They're just

3:07

they hear what the world says. They think

3:09

it's maybe a collection of myths.

3:12

They believe that it's been

3:14

copied over so many times that we have no

3:16

idea what it originally said. And

3:19

so they kind of keep their distance from it.

3:21

And what I found, um, as someone

3:24

who's been around the Bible all my life, was

3:26

the closer you draw to it,

3:28

the more powerful it becomes. The more the

3:31

more personal it becomes, the

3:33

more integrity it has. And

3:35

boy, just don't be afraid of it because it's

3:38

it's it defends itself.

3:41

Yeah, fascinating. I actually, because I grew up

3:43

nominally Catholic, so Irish Catholic,

3:45

New York City. So we sort of had this high

3:48

respect for the Bible. Matter of fact, I would

3:50

put it, I would say God wrote a book. God wrote a

3:52

book. I just didn't think I could understand it. And then

3:54

when someone opened the Bible, it was very, you know, transformative

3:57

for me. But we're at a different stage, you know, that was decades

3:59

ago or a different stage in our culture.

4:01

And I think you're you're right. A lot of people just sort

4:03

of unsure, um, of its

4:06

origin. I remember the first time I was a new Christian,

4:08

and the first time someone finding

4:10

out I was relatively new Christian questioned

4:12

the authority of the Bible. And this is I started

4:15

my journey asking some of the questions. You are. It's

4:17

my high school. Uh, maybe my

4:19

not maybe my middle school, late middle school, early

4:21

high school teacher, when talking about

4:23

the Bible said, well, you know, the Bible is a

4:26

good book written by shepherds thousands of years

4:28

ago that doesn't have application to our life

4:30

today. And and I was it my shepherds.

4:33

And so I started doing some work. So so

4:35

how would if like so my first understanding

4:38

history of the Bible thousands of years ago, some shepherds

4:40

wrote this stuff down, doesn't have application today,

4:42

but could understanding the history of Bible help

4:44

us understand more clearly how God is

4:47

working through His Word, his work through His Word?

4:48

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And

4:51

and in this journey that's in the book,

4:53

which takes us through the history

4:55

of how the Bible came to be. Uh,

4:58

we do talk about the various parts

5:00

of the Bible and what kinds of people

5:02

wrote those parts of the Bible. And,

5:04

you know, we we go into the assumption that God inspired

5:07

at all that the voice of God

5:09

speaks through it, but he speaks very definitely

5:11

through the personalities of the people.

5:13

And, uh, yeah, some of them were

5:16

were shepherds. One of them wrote

5:18

a lot of psalms, for example, but

5:20

a lot of other different kinds of people

5:22

wrote the Bible is written by kings

5:25

and prophets and priests

5:27

and ordinary people like

5:29

Abraham. Uh, and it just

5:31

that they were just called out and, um,

5:34

for the with their stories. Not that Abraham

5:36

wrote any of it, but people like him.

5:39

Yeah, certainly people of

5:41

of centuries, millennia ago.

5:44

And so then for some people, the question becomes, you know, how

5:46

is this pertinent to me and how

5:48

so let's let's even talk about that. So if it's going to part

5:51

of what you write about is you actually think

5:53

that understanding the history of the Bible could help people,

5:55

well, engage the Bible more effectively, could

5:58

could bring more people to faith and more.

6:00

So that's a pretty lofty goal. I don't

6:02

generally think of. One

6:04

way to reach more people is for understanding the history of

6:06

the Bible. But you you kind of make that case. And

6:08

I found it interesting. So tell us a little bit about why that's

6:11

the case.

6:12

Yeah, I think you're right in that it's not the

6:14

major, um, evangelistic

6:17

weapon that we're going to use a book like this,

6:19

but I wrote more for the Christian

6:21

who's been around the Bible has

6:24

been maybe to Sunday school classes and

6:26

Bible studies, but really

6:28

doesn't know what's in that book. Uh,

6:31

the type of people I teach on Sunday mornings

6:33

in my class that, uh,

6:35

are again, I feel

6:38

like there's a kind of almost a

6:40

functional agnosticism in our churches

6:42

and that people say, yeah,

6:45

I believe in God. I

6:47

believe in these things, but I don't really

6:49

want to. I don't really want

6:51

to get too close to it, because I'm afraid I'll find

6:54

that it's all mythology and that it's not

6:56

real. Um, and then I'd lose my

6:58

church and I'd lose my friends. So

7:00

I wanted them to say, look, let's get

7:02

to know this book. Let's take this on.

7:04

How do we know that these

7:06

that what we're reading is what they wrote

7:09

2003 thousand years ago

7:11

and so we go into

7:14

the different parts of the Bible, how they

7:16

came together, what kinds of people

7:18

made the decisions to,

7:20

uh, use this? Don't use

7:23

that. And then how do we

7:25

know it stayed the same? You know, how do we know

7:27

we're reading something that is in

7:30

line with what was originally written?

7:33

Because so much is based on that. You know, we we even

7:35

in, you know, schools and the doctrinal

7:37

statements. I served with the Talbot School of Theology and

7:39

Biola University. I was at Wheaton, I think.

7:41

I think all of those doctrinal statements

7:43

say that the Bible was

7:46

I think it used the word inerrant at both schools and

7:48

and in the original autographs,

7:50

which sounds like a strange phrase. It's not autographs

7:53

doesn't mean that that, you know, John wrote

7:55

his John Hancock is a big flowery signature

7:57

at the end of the gospel, but it means that you know what

7:59

was actually written there. So this leads to a lot of questions,

8:02

and I know our audience is going to have questions

8:04

as well. For example, we don't have

8:06

any of the original autographs, not one.

8:08

So what does that mean

8:10

for the idea of the Bible being reliable,

8:13

being true, its history. But I'm going to

8:15

open up the phones as well and invite people

8:17

to call it 87754836758775483675.

8:25

Maybe you have a question about how the Bible came to be. What's

8:27

in the Bible? What's not in the Bible? Why?

8:30

Um, you know what? What ultimately

8:32

how that how that matters for our faith

8:34

and more. Um, and so

8:36

again, we're talking to, uh, Rob Suggs. The

8:38

book is the book that conquered time. We're going to give

8:40

away a few copies to our brilliant callers. Um,

8:42

so, you know, the Bible is the best selling book

8:44

of of all time. It always

8:47

is. You always go every year. It's there. Um,

8:49

why do you think that is after so

8:52

many thousands of years?

8:55

I think because it is just so absolutely

8:58

unique, because it has,

9:01

um, one thing we talk about is

9:03

how deeply it is affected our culture.

9:06

It affects our language, the expressions

9:08

we use. The way we look at each

9:10

other, the way our justice system

9:12

works. Western culture is

9:14

based on the Bible. And people

9:17

think that, well, we

9:19

could just kind of push the Bible aside.

9:22

Not so easily. I mean, it's

9:24

been it's had thousands of years

9:26

of shaping the way we think

9:28

and the way we speak and the way we see

9:30

each other, the the meaning

9:32

of things. So people who think that they

9:34

are completely divorced from Christian

9:37

or all religion and they say,

9:39

I have no religion, I have no faith,

9:41

and I have no spiritual beliefs. Those

9:44

people two are tremendously

9:46

molded more than they know by the

9:48

Bible.

9:49

For sure. For sure. Remember our number is (877) 548-3675.

9:55

That's (877) 548-3675.

10:00

Of course, you know, we can't trust the Bible because

10:02

it is been translated and

10:04

people have added things to it and taken

10:06

things they didn't want out of it. And so

10:08

so the Bible is maybe,

10:10

maybe long ago, it was more to

10:12

the true writing intent of the

10:14

author. But we can't trust it anymore, right?

10:17

Oh, that's an interesting

10:20

thing. You know, the internet has really,

10:22

really cut into a lot

10:25

of things. So. Yeah, but.

10:26

But Rob, you can't put it on the internet unless it's true.

10:28

So, you know, it's if it's on the internet it's true.

10:31

So we but I see a lot of

10:33

Jesus never existed. Jesus

10:35

is a fairy tale. Yeah. And you and I know

10:37

that even the most skeptical of the skeptics out

10:40

there, people who study the Bible

10:42

every day. But maybe you're not Christians

10:44

at all. They'll all tell

10:46

you Jesus definitely existed.

10:48

That's a historic fact. Now,

10:50

when we get into the miracles and the resurrection,

10:52

we can talk about those things. But

10:55

Jesus existed. But as

10:57

you said, you can't believe everything on the internet.

11:00

But it has. There's been this general

11:03

challenge that the Bible is just like

11:05

any other ancient piece of literature.

11:08

It's a bunch of stories. It's a bunch

11:10

of myths, and we can't trust

11:12

it. And one of the the, I

11:14

guess the central things I set

11:16

out to challenge was this idea

11:19

that we have no idea what was

11:21

in those original autographs,

11:23

and I have a member of my family that

11:25

believes that. And it's very we've

11:27

I've tried to dialogue with him about it

11:29

and he just it's hard

11:31

to get through. He believes that it's like

11:34

that game of telephone. And you've heard that

11:36

comparison to where us or something

11:38

in someone's ear and they whisper it and they

11:40

whispering, and it goes around the circle and the message

11:42

changes. And of course, you and

11:44

I know Bible transmission was

11:46

nothing like that at all. Um,

11:49

and, you know, we I don't know how deep into

11:51

the, into the weeds we would go on that. But

11:53

the point is, it's, it's more like

11:55

I write something down and I hand it to

11:57

someone else, and then he makes

12:00

a copy of it very carefully

12:02

and hands it to someone else. And then

12:04

over time, people are copying those copies.

12:07

So, um, it's very different

12:09

than a game of telephone.

12:11

In other words. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And the level

12:13

of precision, the intentionality and

12:15

more, we're going to talk more about that and much more

12:17

with Rob Suggs. His new book is the

12:20

Book that Conquered Time. We'll be taking your calls as

12:22

well. (877) 548-3675.

12:25

That's (877) 548-3675.

12:39

Hey! We're back.

12:40

Its jets are alive. And we're talking about

12:42

the Bible. Not just like the what

12:44

the Bible's content is, but really kind of the history

12:46

of the Bible itself. A biography

12:49

of the Bible is the way Rob Suggs or

12:51

the author here of the book That Conquered time,

12:53

explained it to us as well.

12:55

We're taking your calls, got lots of calls lined up, so

12:57

we're going to jump right in. (877) 548-3675.

13:02

Rob it's always fascinating to me like what people

13:04

are interested in calling in about.

13:06

And it appears based on our phone calls here today

13:09

that people are interested in talking about these

13:11

issues. So let's let's take a look

13:13

and start jumping in with

13:15

to our conversation. Let's see,

13:18

uh, we're going to go to Victoria and Rialto, California.

13:20

Victoria, you're live on the air. You go ahead with your question,

13:23

your comment.

13:24

Hello. I'm so grateful

13:26

to hear that this book is being offered

13:28

and the author has written it because

13:30

I'm a 67 year old grandma with a 22

13:33

year old grandson who was raised

13:35

in not in our home all the

13:37

time, but a lot of the time

13:39

that he was growing up. He lost his dad to

13:41

a car accident. So no father

13:43

in in the home.

13:46

But his grandpa is a Christian and he went

13:48

to church with us. But he's 22

13:50

now. He's gone through relationships,

13:53

car accidents, drugs, alcohol.

13:56

And he said, grandma, how can you believe

13:58

in that old antiquated book? It's

14:01

been passed down for all these years.

14:03

Nobody believes in that anymore.

14:06

How can you think that? It's the truth.

14:08

I think it's nothing more than Wikipedia.

14:10

It can be changed. It can be somebody's

14:13

opinion I need

14:15

help.

14:17

I think it's a great question, Victor. If you'll hold on just

14:19

a second. And after Rob Suggs answers,

14:21

we're going to give you a copy of his

14:23

book to help. It's called the book The Concord. Tommy, will that help

14:25

you in your conversation with him as well? But,

14:28

Rob, what do you think?

14:30

Boy, that is such a great question and I

14:32

know exactly where she's

14:34

coming from. Um. We

14:36

face a culture that is saying, you know,

14:39

why should I believe that?

14:41

And number one, be thankful the questions

14:43

being asked, even if it's being

14:45

asked skeptically because it shows

14:48

a desire to

14:50

listen to, to can

14:52

I trust this book? And maybe

14:55

maybe he doesn't believe he can.

14:57

But this is where the

15:00

Bible can stand up for itself. It

15:02

can. If he gets into

15:04

a good study, if you could get him to

15:06

into a good study in a church, for example,

15:09

where some of these questions could be answered

15:11

and where the Bible could be taught, he

15:14

would see that it does apply

15:16

everything in it in Old Testament and new

15:18

applies to the the struggles

15:21

we face today because people

15:23

don't change. So yes,

15:25

these are old stories, but they're stories

15:28

about people very similar to

15:30

the people we face today. And

15:32

what attracted me to the Bible

15:34

from the very beginning, I think, is that

15:37

it understands us so well.

15:39

It doesn't have. Faultless

15:43

characters. David is not a faultless character.

15:45

Abraham is not a faultless character.

15:48

Um, none of Moses. None

15:51

of these people. They're all just very

15:53

imperfect people. And yet it just

15:55

nails the problem of sin the Bible

15:57

does. And so when I talk

15:59

to people, I begin to talk to them on the basis

16:02

of don't you feel like

16:04

there are things in your life that you wish

16:06

weren't so? It isn't. What

16:08

is it that's wrong with all of us?

16:10

It's not just you, it's all of us.

16:12

We have these things in our lives, life

16:14

that just aren't right. These

16:17

temptations we have these tendency

16:19

to do things wrong. The Bible understands

16:22

that it nails it and understands

16:24

the problem of sin, and it

16:26

shows us what to do about it.

16:30

Well, could help. Maybe. Yeah,

16:33

right. Hold on the library too, because right

16:35

after, uh, right after I'm done talking,

16:37

our producers are going to come on the line. Karen. She's going to give you

16:39

a copy of the book. And

16:41

super, super helpful question. Okay. Let's go to David

16:43

listening on Wbai in Chicago.

16:46

David, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.

16:48

Hi. Um, really appreciate your program.

16:51

It's excellent. Thank you. Um,

16:53

my question is, um, uh,

16:56

I believe you had said that,

16:59

um, there's not one

17:01

original. Um.

17:05

Uh, autograph or manuscript?

17:08

The original. Uh,

17:10

that is, uh, that had

17:12

survived. And

17:14

so my question is,

17:17

uh, isn't it, isn't it true

17:19

that, um, a

17:22

manuscript was was

17:25

by archaeologist was found

17:27

that was around

17:30

the time of John, uh, the

17:32

apostle John around 100

17:34

A.D. or so. Isn't that correct?

17:39

We think. Rob.

17:40

Well, that's a that's a good question too.

17:42

We're finding new manuscripts all

17:44

the time, and some of them get

17:47

very close to,

17:49

uh, that period. That is the most interesting

17:52

period to me, which is the period

17:54

of the gospels. So we

17:56

found some things that could be very late

17:58

first century. Now, if you get very

18:00

late first century. Yes. That's around the time

18:02

John was written. We haven't found

18:04

what John wrote, though.

18:07

We found very,

18:09

very early copies. Possibly.

18:11

But keep in mind that the copies we find

18:14

are fragments there you can find

18:16

pictures of them online. They

18:18

look like someone ripped something out of a book.

18:20

And there's a little groups of words here

18:22

and there. But by the way,

18:24

this is this is why. We

18:28

have less of a need to see those originals

18:30

than you might think is because there are

18:32

so many copies, there's so many

18:34

thousands in there, in so many different

18:36

places. They're in Egypt, they're

18:39

in Asia minor, they're in Europe, and

18:41

they compare very well to each other.

18:43

So here's the thing. Let's

18:46

just say John writes this. He writes down

18:48

his gospel. In the beginning was the word,

18:50

and the word was with God, etc.. And

18:53

then people began to make copies, and

18:55

these copies go all off to different corners

18:57

of the world. And then you find

18:59

that 30 years later there's copies of copies

19:02

and they still match each other. And

19:04

the only thing that's different, or maybe

19:06

the the word D is,

19:08

is different here. Or,

19:11

um, there's a qualifying adverb

19:14

and not even an adverb preposition

19:16

that's stuck in there. Very minor

19:19

words that don't affect the sentence at all. And

19:21

those are the only changes. That's

19:23

the situation we have with manuscript

19:26

study. We know that,

19:28

uh, scholars will tell you what we have

19:31

is about 97%

19:33

accurate to the original, we believe,

19:36

because there's just such consistency

19:39

in the in the copies we have.

19:42

Yeah. And I think that I, I

19:45

think I want to hold on, get a copy of the book

19:47

as well, remember. If you'll just hold on for the line after

19:49

I'm done talking. Uh, we'll give you Robb Suggs

19:51

book, the book that conquered time. But

19:53

but I think, David, that

19:55

again, I'm not a New Testament scholar,

19:58

but I if I recall, the oldest

20:00

manuscript is in the Rylands Library

20:02

and it's kind of mid one hundreds,

20:04

I think maybe I mean, there are books

20:07

that might be older

20:09

than, than the, for

20:11

example, the book of revelation. Uh, you know,

20:13

there might be, you know, things like The decay and

20:15

the Shepherd of Hermes. So maybe that's what you're thinking

20:18

about. Whereas there are books

20:20

that are not in the Bible that are as

20:22

old as the Bible, that are Christian books

20:24

and so, so, but but I'm not sure.

20:27

But we don't I don't think anybody says

20:29

that I've ever heard. And I could could be

20:31

wrong, but I don't think I've heard anyone say that we have

20:33

an actual manuscript, in part because

20:35

it would be, I mean, paper. It would be very

20:38

difficult to withstand

20:40

2000 years of of

20:42

time. And here's the great thing. And now I'm jumping on

20:44

your stuff, Rob. So forgive me, but here's the great thing

20:46

the power is not in the object.

20:48

It is in the inspired, inerrant words.

20:51

So even if we had

20:53

the original manuscript, it wouldn't

20:56

be any more holy. It's not like

20:58

a relic that we would carry around and put in a

21:00

case and, you know, walk through town singing

21:02

about it. It's the Word of God,

21:04

not the paper upon which the word or

21:06

the papyrus in that case upon which the word

21:08

is written. So super question, David, and just hold on. We're going

21:10

to give you a copy of this as well.

21:13

Let's go. You started getting to this a little bit

21:15

and I think John John in Moline,

21:17

Illinois, he's listening on Wdvm. He's got a question

21:19

that I think will help us move forward. The conversation.

21:21

John, you're on the air. Go right ahead.

21:24

Yes.

21:25

Thank you very much again. Um, just

21:27

kind of curious, as I've studied

21:29

in reading more in the Bible and getting

21:31

deeper with it, uh, older persons

21:34

age. Um, and the

21:36

other day, uh, a little Bible

21:38

study group ago with um, they

21:40

said, well, why do we have so many conversions,

21:43

like the Living Bible, which I've read

21:45

and studied with? And of course, and as

21:48

you grow from the 25 to 45

21:50

age, and I agree with

21:52

what has been said here this morning.

21:55

And of course, and then I guess I'm going back for

21:57

confirmation. My own thoughts here from

21:59

the people here today on the show.

22:02

Um, if it was King James,

22:04

it was the Living Bible, whatever verse

22:06

you want to call out there. They're

22:08

all pretty much close because

22:10

like you say, we don't have an exact. Word

22:14

for word proven. And

22:16

if that makes you understand what

22:18

Christ does for us and God's

22:20

power was in the creation of all this,

22:23

then that's the true

22:25

test I was feeling. Is there what makes

22:27

you feel to grow, to dig deeper?

22:30

Not just the name of the conversion

22:32

of what the book is.

22:34

Right?

22:34

Right. Yeah, yeah.

22:36

Yeah. So I'm looking.

22:37

Let's, let's, let's let's have Rob. So let's jump in.

22:39

Let's have Rob jump in on that and

22:41

talk a little bit about that. Because I think just to make

22:43

sure we get one thing though, to be clear,

22:45

most, uh, the overwhelming

22:48

majority of English

22:50

translations of the Bible

22:52

rely on the same set of manuscripts.

22:54

Or there's two. So it's not that the translations are

22:56

not generally saying, with the exception

22:58

of there are exceptions. I'm saying generically,

23:01

most recent translations of the Bible rely

23:03

on the same or similar set of manuscripts.

23:05

King James Version has some variants. We'll talk about that.

23:07

But but I want to make sure we're talking. So let's

23:09

start with the question of why there are different translations

23:12

rather than and John, you hold

23:14

on the line. We're going to give you a copy of the book. Uh,

23:16

but why are there different translations

23:18

if we have some reliable manuscripts?

23:22

That's it really is a good question and a common

23:24

one. I hear that a lot. People

23:26

are saying I'm confused by all these translations,

23:29

and why are there so many? And

23:31

we have a whole chapter on that. And toward the

23:33

end of the book, um, and it introduces

23:35

some of the translations, it doesn't make

23:38

a lot of value judgments on which translation

23:40

is better than the other. But part

23:43

of this is that, as it

23:45

said a minute ago, um, it's

23:48

not the paper that it's written on. It's

23:50

not any of that. Those

23:52

are the wineskins. You know, Jesus talked

23:54

about new wine placed in old wineskins.

23:57

These translations are like wineskins

24:00

that cover that have

24:02

carried the word of God. But

24:05

while the Word of God never changes, human

24:07

language does so. For

24:09

example, for 500 years, I

24:11

guess the King James Bible

24:14

was just a fabulous, fabulous

24:16

translation. I wrote a lot

24:18

about the King James because I'm actually

24:20

a fan of it. Yes, it has inaccuracies

24:23

in it today, and a lot of the wording

24:25

is archaic, but

24:27

it was written during Shakespeare's era,

24:30

the most beautiful period of the English language.

24:32

God chose to to

24:35

bring the King James out of that. So

24:37

it's written for poetry, it's written for

24:39

sound. And it just it

24:41

carried through the years. But now

24:43

we need new translations because

24:46

the language has changed. We don't say

24:48

faith, hope and charity anymore. We

24:50

say faith, hope and love. So

24:52

we need to keep up with the changing

24:54

of the language. That's part of it.

24:56

Also, there are different purposes

24:59

for different translations. If

25:01

you have the new American Standard Version,

25:04

you've got a very, very, very

25:06

accurate, almost painfully accurate

25:09

word for word translation. So

25:11

you people don't like to know, I want to know exactly

25:13

what the Greek word was and

25:15

exactly what the English version of that

25:18

Greek word was. Well, that's the new American

25:20

standard. And translations like

25:22

it, the English Standard Version,

25:24

etc. but it might be

25:26

a little less readable as a result of that.

25:29

A version like the New International and

25:32

some of the others is going to come along

25:34

and say, let's take a concept

25:36

for concept and translate it

25:38

not based on every word, but

25:41

on every sentence, and get the sense

25:43

we're going.

25:43

To run out of time.

25:44

So they're a different time.

25:45

Rob. So we're going to jump right back in and

25:47

continue with Rob Suggs in just a minute

25:49

about his book, the book that conquered time and your calls.

25:51

(877) 548-3675.

26:07

Hey, we're back yet? Stats are live. Sorry about that.

26:09

Cut off there at the end. Rob. Appreciate you hanging

26:11

with us. We unfortunately got a hard break

26:13

at the bottom of the hour. We're giving away a few copies

26:15

of Rob Suggs book, the Book

26:18

That Conquered Time talking about it. Because I have

26:20

a biography of the Bible, there

26:22

are several questions, Rob, that are coming in that

26:24

I think I'll probably just put them together as

26:27

one question. And

26:29

so if that's okay for our for our listeners, our

26:31

callers. So Doug in Michigan

26:33

asks, do you think the NLT is

26:35

a good version? If so, why?

26:37

Why is some scripture taken out

26:40

compared to the NKJV, uh,

26:43

where it's in the NKJV? So

26:45

but I'm going to combine these together. Could

26:47

um, could Rob comment. This is

26:49

Michael in Dayton. Could Rob comment about

26:52

how his research would impact the thoughts about a King

26:54

James only group? Are also,

26:56

are there some translations to avoid

26:58

which are the best ones?

27:00

And then another one is why there's so many different versions of the Bible.

27:03

What's there? What's the opinion of the best

27:05

version? But I think they they all

27:07

kind of have to do with. And you and

27:09

you said there were some I think you use the word

27:11

mistakes in the KJV, which I

27:13

want to I want to give you the opportunity to explain

27:16

by that what you mean by that, because, uh,

27:18

because the language can mean different things

27:20

to different people. So if you don't mind, unpack

27:22

because, I mean, we're talking about manuscripts here with

27:24

the KJV and we're talking about translations

27:27

as well. So just walk us through that

27:29

so people understand that why we got these different translations,

27:31

why the KJV has some verses

27:33

that others don't. And

27:36

what do you think about modern translations today?

27:39

Okay. Boy, that's that's a lot there.

27:41

Okay. And if you could do that all in about seven

27:43

minutes.

27:45

Yeah, I first of all yes

27:47

I don't if I use the word mistakes

27:50

I don't I don't want to use that word at all. So

27:52

let's let's have that stricken from the record.

27:54

I totally know what you're saying. You were talking about some translation

27:56

differences, right?

27:57

It translation differences. And it has

27:59

to do with, um, discoveries that

28:01

have been made since 1611,

28:04

you know, since around the time

28:06

of Queen Elizabeth when

28:08

that translation was made. They

28:10

did a tremendous job. The scholars on

28:12

the King James Version and the King

28:14

James is still a good translation to read.

28:17

I read it mainly for the beauty

28:19

of the language. Um,

28:22

I would use more something like the

28:24

English Standard version or something

28:26

along those lines to read more for

28:28

precision. Um,

28:30

I'm, I'm very hesitant

28:32

to make value judgments on on

28:35

translations. I don't think

28:37

there are a lot of bad ones because

28:39

as editor has said, they're all the word of

28:41

God and they're all based on

28:43

the same manuscripts. And

28:46

I have to remind my people of that, you know, when

28:48

I teach and they compare their

28:50

Bibles to each other and, hey, they're

28:52

those are based on the same manuscripts,

28:54

but different scholars make different judgments

28:57

on how to translate this or that phrase.

28:59

Um, someone asked a question about

29:02

why would the NLT drop

29:05

some verses? Um.

29:07

Let me add, so it's not just right, it's not just

29:09

the NLT. It would be. Most modern

29:11

translations, for example, don't include the longer

29:13

ending of Mark. There's a passage

29:16

first, John, there's there's and it has

29:18

to do with the manuscripts

29:20

that the that yes, yes that the King

29:22

James Version you. So the King James Version uses

29:24

a different manuscript set and, uh,

29:27

ironically, it uses a younger manuscript

29:29

set and the newer translations

29:32

have found older manuscript sets. So

29:34

the King James is older, but uses a

29:37

manuscript set that was closer to

29:39

its time. Whereas now we go back a little further.

29:42

Yeah. So so so why why does

29:44

that matter? Why do we keep looking at manuscript

29:46

studies like that?

29:47

This. This is a this is a great thing.

29:50

Um, and this is why

29:52

I'm not going to tell you what translation

29:54

to buy, but I'm going to tell you to buy

29:57

a good study Bible. And there

29:59

are a lot of good study Bibles out there. There's

30:01

a, a website. I mean, I'm sorry,

30:03

there's a YouTube, um,

30:05

that that has a really good YouTube

30:08

video that talks about the various study Bibles

30:10

and compares them, and you need to seek

30:12

that out. But a study Bible

30:15

will give you some of this. We've mentioned

30:17

that the long and short endings of Mark.

30:20

Most Bibles will give you

30:22

a note when you get to the end of

30:24

Mark that says, you know, after

30:27

this verse, these endings

30:29

are not in any of the oldest manuscripts.

30:31

So I believe the last verse

30:34

of Mark that we know is

30:36

in the oldest manuscript says

30:38

that the women went to the tomb

30:40

and and they saw the angel,

30:42

and then they went back, you know, went

30:44

back to their homes frightened, which is a

30:46

strange way to end that

30:49

gospel. But it does end there.

30:51

And they in terms of the original, the oldest

30:53

manuscripts we have, there are manuscripts

30:56

from a little later that have endings

30:58

that seem to have been cobbled on and

31:01

a little bit similar to Matthew, etc.

31:03

and so the point is,

31:06

you should have a note in your Bible that tells

31:08

you about this, so nobody's trying to sneak

31:10

anything by you. Now,

31:12

the other big one is John.

31:14

Uh, is at John six, the woman

31:16

caught in adultery and the woman

31:19

caught in adultery. Story. This is where

31:21

he was without sin. Cast the first

31:23

stone. That story, it's a favorite

31:25

story, but it's not in the

31:27

oldest manuscripts. Now, it

31:29

is such a wonderful Jesus story,

31:31

and it's so much in keeping, um,

31:34

with the Gospels. Then

31:36

it has been left in, but usually

31:38

with a qualifying note that says

31:41

this is not part of the original manuscripts.

31:43

For that reason, some preachers will

31:45

not preach from that passage. Um,

31:48

because as they're saying, we we really don't

31:50

know if this is in the original autographs.

31:53

So those

31:55

are the two biggest passages

31:57

that have, uh, questions

32:00

about them. But there are other little places

32:02

here and there. The Lord's Prayer.

32:05

Um, here are some some of the verses

32:08

were in the original or the oldest. So

32:10

those are those are some the reasons

32:12

you need a good study Bible is they

32:14

give you some of the background of that.

32:17

Yeah. Super helpful. And again, it's

32:19

it's worth noting that a lot of this

32:22

is is in every study Bible because it's not

32:24

like a secret that people are trying

32:26

to sometimes you'll end up in a, maybe a King James only

32:28

conversation. And they'll also often

32:30

point to first John five seven and eight, which

32:32

in the King James Version says there are three that bear

32:34

record in heaven the father, the word, and the Holy Ghost.

32:37

And these three are one. And

32:39

that's omitted from almost all

32:41

modern versions.

32:43

It's but a King James only person would say, but

32:45

listen, that proves the Trinity. Well, the Trinity is in the

32:47

Bible. It's it doesn't need this verse

32:50

that is kind of found later

32:52

in later manuscripts as well. And we should

32:54

also add that there's no doctrine of Scripture

32:56

that is overturned or

32:58

undermined by any manuscript

33:00

difference as well. Okay. We're getting

33:02

we're getting down a rabbit hole here and I should and I should

33:04

stop that. So but again I'm interested in topic

33:07

as well. So um, but let's go to Gary

33:09

in Alabama. Gary, you're live on the air with

33:11

your question or comment. Go right ahead.

33:15

Thank you for taking my call.

33:17

Um, I'd like to know, is it? Can

33:20

you justify a position

33:22

that. Surely

33:24

the God who created the universe could preserve

33:27

His Word and through all

33:29

the translations. Maybe

33:31

I don't know exactly the word that was used

33:34

in the original, but

33:36

surely the meaning is still

33:39

applicable in the various

33:41

translations of the Bible that we have.

33:45

Yeah. So what do you. What do you think, Rob? Oh,

33:47

let me say to oh, we're going to give you a copy of

33:49

of, we're going to give you a copy of his

33:52

book and the book that conquered

33:54

time. So, you know, how

33:56

does God preserve his word as a matter? I mean,

33:59

how is that case important that God has preserved

34:01

his word?

34:02

Well, it's it's very important.

34:04

Very important, because we have

34:06

to know that we haven't

34:08

been mixing in, um, our

34:10

own doctrines and our own ideas and our

34:12

own guesses, but that, um, as

34:15

Gary says, God inspired

34:17

his word from the beginning. And

34:20

and it comes down to us.

34:22

And this is, I think,

34:24

the heart of the book that I wrote is

34:26

the fact that after these thousands

34:29

of years, this book is still

34:31

the bestseller. It's still blesses

34:33

lives every time

34:35

I teach. Doesn't matter

34:37

what the passage is. The prodigal son

34:40

I've taught the prodigal son, and I

34:42

know you have to add over and over and over

34:44

and it's never the same story.

34:46

Every time I come to it, there's

34:49

something new in it. And what

34:51

it is, is that's the Holy Spirit applying

34:53

it to my life and where I am in

34:55

life and where are the hearers of

34:58

the lesson are and what they need

35:00

to hear. And so it's a living

35:02

word. God is speaking through

35:04

it. The same God that spoke thousands

35:06

of years ago, as Gary pointed out,

35:09

is still speaking to us. But

35:11

through that word, through the word he inspired.

35:14

So that's why it's so important for

35:16

us to understand that it's a living

35:18

book.

35:20

Okay. So we're going to continue.

35:22

A conversation with Rob Suggs in just a moment. And

35:24

the book is the book that conquered

35:26

time. We've got one more segment with your calls.

35:28

I'll give you one number one more time. We're going to try to do

35:30

a rapid fire round, which I have not

35:32

been a good model or example of when I started

35:34

going into the manuscript stuff, so forgive me.

35:37

(877) 548-3675

35:41

is our number. That's (877) 548-3675.

35:45

The book that Conquered Time with author Rob

35:48

Suggs. We're gonna talk more about the Bible. Hey,

36:00

Rebecca. Headsets are live. We're going to do, I don't

36:02

know, a lightning round kind of thing. I'm going to go hopefully

36:04

to Clark and then to Elena and then

36:07

to Judy, and then we'll keep going through.

36:09

So Clark, Elaine and Judy, you'll be ready, but

36:11

with brief questions. And then we'll

36:13

have Rob give brief answers and they'll

36:15

all be around his book, the book that

36:17

conquered time. So, Clark, you're up first. How

36:19

do you defend the Old Testament scriptures? Talk to us about

36:21

your question. I almost gave you a question. But tell us what your question

36:23

is.

36:26

You beat me to it. Um, huge fan of Moody

36:28

Radio is thankful for you guys. For

36:31

your love for the Lord. Um, yeah. So

36:33

just in essence of how many

36:35

manuscripts there are for the New Testament,

36:38

I'm just wondering how to provide a

36:40

reason for the hope within me for

36:42

the, um, the Old Testament scriptures,

36:45

since there aren't as many manuscripts.

36:47

Super question, Clark Holden. I'm going to give you a copy

36:49

of the book. Rob, what do you think? Less manuscripts

36:52

in the Old Testament.

36:54

Less manuscripts, but they

36:56

were scrupulously copied

36:59

by scribes even more

37:01

carefully than the New Testament in many

37:03

cases. And, um, there's

37:05

just very little, there's

37:08

very little dispute. Um, of,

37:10

of complete version of Isaiah

37:12

was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls

37:15

in the 1940s, and it perfectly

37:17

matched. Almost perfectly matched what?

37:19

You know, what we've always used.

37:23

The Dead Sea Scrolls were such a huge find

37:25

and address some of these issues as well. Super Christian Clark,

37:27

remember going to give you a copy of that book. Elena in

37:29

Wheeling, Illinois, you're live on the air. Go ahead.

37:32

Oh, hi. Thanks. Well, how do you

37:35

answer someone who says, yes? The Bible

37:37

is a historic book, but only in the

37:39

fact that it's, um. It's helps

37:41

mankind with his agenda of, like, pro

37:44

communism, anti-communism, pro homosexual,

37:46

anti-homosexual. And it just helps

37:49

me push his agenda through time.

37:51

Just as you would use Shakespeare, which

37:53

is lasted, um, quite a long time. And

37:55

the ancient philosophers, they put the Bible

37:58

on that and that shelf,

38:00

because you can use it for your agenda.

38:03

Okay, good. Thank you. Let's let's

38:05

have Rob jump in. Okay. Let's have Rob jump in. So

38:07

it was hard to hear too. So what? Um, so how do

38:09

you start with people who believe the Bible is, is

38:12

used for an agenda rather

38:14

than maybe historic. And in our case,

38:16

we believe inerrant, inspired.

38:18

Well, it's number one. It's so broad

38:20

and it doesn't cover agendas

38:24

other than, well,

38:26

not really, other than the

38:28

problem of sin, what to do

38:30

about our sin? Who were who

38:32

was humanity and who was God. And

38:35

it covers those main things and

38:37

it touches on these other things, but

38:39

it's not about an agenda. As far as

38:41

ancient literature, I enjoyed

38:43

Homer's Odyssey and Homer's Iliad. I

38:46

enjoy Aesop's Fables, which were written

38:48

at the same time as the Book of Daniel,

38:50

but I don't they don't speak into

38:52

my life. The Bible does.

38:55

Okay, good. Judy, we're.

38:56

Going to go to Judy in Sycamore, Illinois. Listen,

38:58

Wbai, Judy, you're live on the air with your question. Please

39:00

jump right in.

39:02

I will. Hi. I've rephrased

39:04

my question since I left it with the caller, but

39:07

in conversation with someone

39:10

who seems to be really pushing their

39:12

point that the Bible's just not true and

39:14

can't be believed. What would

39:16

be the best beginning

39:18

response to them?

39:21

Um, how do

39:23

you start with the information

39:26

that's been given today? There's so

39:28

much of it. Yeah.

39:30

That's great. That's great. By the way, thanks for pushing through

39:32

that phone ringing in the background. I appreciate you staying

39:34

on the other question. So so what do you think?

39:36

I mean how do you start is is her question Judy

39:38

swaying when someone maybe questions that starting

39:40

point.

39:42

Start with a non argumentative

39:44

attitude. That's the best thing you can do.

39:47

Listen carefully, not

39:49

say I understand how you would ask that question,

39:52

and I would invite you to

39:54

read the Bible and would

39:56

invite you to listen to the

39:59

to its words and see what it

40:01

says, and that you

40:03

might have some preconceptions, like

40:05

the man said, tell me about the God you don't believe

40:07

in. I probably don't believe in that God either.

40:10

So. But the main thing is

40:13

not to get drawn into arguments

40:15

with people, because when people

40:17

become very defensive in arguments and

40:19

we can never make any progress that way.

40:22

Yeah for sure. And that's helpful. I think it's

40:25

helpful. You say you say in the book that if the Bible disappeared

40:27

tomorrow, its imprint would remain

40:29

really across our culture and every part of life. Explain what you

40:31

mean by that.

40:33

And we hit on this a little earlier in

40:35

the interview. Um, it is had

40:37

such an effect on

40:40

shaping Western civilization

40:42

that we can't carry on

40:44

a conversation without using

40:47

phrases that come out of the Bible whenever

40:49

we say something like a prophet in his own country

40:51

or or any of those things

40:53

where, um, we're using

40:56

words and ideas that come

40:58

out of the Bible. So,

41:02

um, and then our system

41:04

of government, our, our, um,

41:06

the idea that justice, um,

41:09

is what we owe to people, these are biblical

41:11

ideas. So it's just

41:13

it's just been a tremendous that just the

41:15

very idea of sin is another one. The

41:18

idea I think most people

41:20

have a conception of,

41:22

uh, the the lack of perfection

41:25

in humanity and the fact that there's something

41:27

wrong with us. That's the idea of sin.

41:29

You don't find as much about that in eastern religions,

41:32

but it's a biblical idea that,

41:34

um, so our culture has been

41:37

just shaped tremendously

41:39

by the Bible.

41:40

Super, super. Chris Chicago. You got

41:43

a question in your comment. You're live on the air. Go for it.

41:46

Yeah. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I

41:48

was wondering how

41:50

early translations into

41:52

languages other than Greek, like

41:54

maybe Coptic and other languages.

41:57

Uh, help us to understand what the original

42:00

autographs, uh, would, would

42:02

indicate or help us to get back

42:04

to those.

42:05

That's a super question, Chris. And it's kind of like

42:07

like it's beyond my my I'm

42:10

not I know, just everyone knows Bibles written in three primary

42:12

languages, uh, the biggest of which is Hebrew

42:14

and Greek. And then we have a translated English,

42:16

but it was translated into other things as well.

42:19

So what do you think, Rob? You got any brilliant insights on that?

42:22

Not on not as much on the Coptic.

42:24

That's a really good question. Makes

42:26

me want to do some more.

42:27

Translated, some more.

42:28

Research.

42:29

What about just it being translated into other languages?

42:31

How does that speak to our confidence in the Bible?

42:33

Yeah.

42:34

I think that's something that I work

42:36

really hard when teaching it to help people understand

42:38

is that languages aren't

42:41

perfectly portable to other languages.

42:44

So we have to do a lot little extra

42:46

work when we're working from the Greek.

42:48

And we know that we see the word love. Most

42:50

people know the Greek has several

42:53

words for love, not even just three,

42:55

but more than that. And so we have

42:57

to understand which Greek word

42:59

was used. So yes, the

43:02

languages are very, very important

43:04

because we have to understand what they meant

43:07

to those, the words meant to those cultures.

43:09

And that's why, again, a good study Bible

43:11

can be helpful.

43:13

Yeah. Super question Chris. Good. I'm going to I'm

43:15

actually going to do a little googling about that afterwards

43:17

and maybe even move beyond Google. We're going to go to

43:19

Paul. He's listening on my Faith radio.

43:21

I love the Faith Radio Network. By the way, Paul, you're live

43:23

on the air with your question or your comment.

43:26

Hi. Thank you for.

43:27

Taking my call. So I have a quick question. Why

43:29

do we have to limit the Bible to say that

43:31

it must be completely an accurate

43:34

historical document? And did older

43:36

theologians like I'm talking about 500,000

43:38

years ago, see it only in that

43:40

way?

43:42

That's a good question, Paul. It's a good question. So

43:44

I think he's talking about an historical

43:47

document. In other words, does it

43:49

does it always accord and accurately record

43:51

history and did theologians thousands of

43:53

years ago see it that way or see it more?

43:56

Uh, I could see it sometimes using more as

43:58

metaphor things of that sort. Why does that matter?

44:00

We've got about two minutes left in the program.

44:04

I think what the Bible attempts

44:06

to do is to be a book of faith, and

44:08

that's the primary thing that is. However,

44:11

in terms of history, for example,

44:14

here's what I've learned. Always

44:16

give the Bible the benefit of the doubt, because

44:19

archaeologists keep finding things

44:21

all the time that reinforce

44:23

what the Bible says. The history

44:25

in it is extremely accurate. Um,

44:27

now, when you get into questions of science,

44:30

that's almost a philosophical thing.

44:32

There are poetic descriptions of

44:34

what the mountains clap their hands. Mountains

44:37

don't literally clap their hands, you know, things

44:39

like that. So when you get into those

44:41

kinds of you, we have to understand

44:44

when the Bible is speaking poetically,

44:46

when it is speaking historically,

44:48

when it is speaking on faith, because

44:51

it does use a lot of allegory,

44:53

metaphor, parable, and

44:55

all of those things. God expects

44:57

us to use our brains and our

44:59

common sense when we study

45:01

it, but it's best not

45:03

to get too hung up on it. As

45:06

strictly a book of history because

45:08

it's not primarily a book of history.

45:11

It's a book that contains this history.

45:15

Subprime. The Book of History is a book. It contains

45:17

history. And I would say when it speaks to history, it it

45:20

does so intentionally.

45:22

And and so I think ultimately at

45:24

the end of the program. So I want to and accurately I

45:26

want to I want to go I want to go and spend

45:28

like ten minutes on just that answer. But we have about

45:31

a minute left. So last word

45:33

from you is, again, the book is the book

45:35

that conquered time. Robb Suggs. I want to encourage

45:37

people to get the book. But what you know, in a paragraph

45:40

or less, what was it that drove

45:42

you to this topic, and why do you think it matters to Christians?

45:46

A deep, lifelong love of the Bible.

45:49

The book is almost a fan letter to the Bible

45:51

for me, and wanting

45:54

to get to know it and wanting to walk

45:56

with it through its own life, which

45:58

people don't normally do, and

46:00

to to to learn about

46:02

the path the Bible has been on.

46:06

Fascinating. You speak of the Bible as if, you know,

46:08

like almost like a person. You're writing a biography

46:10

and, and I think, I think reading the Bible and

46:12

understanding its origin really is it's

46:14

actually a discipline. It's actually I have professors

46:17

at the Talbot School of Theology who teach on that,

46:19

but this is a good, accessible resource. So I

46:21

want to thank my guest, Rob Suggs, for joining

46:23

me today. Thank him for writing the book that Conquered

46:25

Time. Also thanks to behind the scenes team

46:28

here at Moody Radio, my producer, the amazing

46:30

Karen Hendren, my engineer Bob Morrow,

46:32

and Laura manning. The phones today here,

46:34

today's program again. You'll find it at headsets

46:37

or Live.com or on the Moody Radio app,

46:39

where you can actually subscribe to every program as a podcast.

46:41

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46:43

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46:45

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46:47

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46:50

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