0:08

Well, this is Ed Setzer live and this

0:10

and every Saturday

0:12

at this time, we have conversations about what's

0:14

going on and in the world today,

0:17

how we might how we might kind of live faithfully

0:19

in the midst of our very confusing cultural moment.

0:21

And more so we're excited to

0:23

have a conversation today that's going to be well, it

0:25

might have been something you actually saw on the History

0:28

Channel. We'll we shall see.

0:30

But will, if you watch the program, we're

0:32

going to talk about it. And we're excited about having

0:35

this conversation today.

0:37

Matter of fact, my guest is a friend and a colleague

0:39

and a coworker, Dominic Hernandez. And

0:41

Dominic Hernandez is an associate professor

0:43

of Old Testament and Semantics, which I'm going to have

0:46

him explain in just a moment. Don't worry. At the

0:48

Talbot School of Theology at Biola

0:50

University, he's the author of several books, including

0:52

Engaging the Old Testament How to

0:54

Read Biblical Narrative Poetry and

0:56

Prophecy. Well teaches

0:58

on an array of topics including biblical wisdom,

1:01

ancient Near Eastern literature, and

1:03

the Dead Sea Scrolls. And that's

1:05

I mean, he's he's awesome people. He's a great

1:07

professor. He leads Talbert in Espanol,

1:09

which we'll explain just a little bit. But the reason

1:11

I wanted to get him on Rick is

1:13

because he was on the History Channel

1:16

a lot the last

1:18

few days, and so kind of, uh,

1:20

kind of fun to watch. Uh,

1:22

one of my colleagues on the History Channel, but also

1:24

kind of funny to watch

1:26

one of my colleagues on the History Channel in the midst

1:28

of some really, like, strange

1:31

and fascinating conversations. You

1:33

know, the History Channel is, well, it's

1:35

pretty fascinating. Let's just say that the History Channel

1:37

is pretty fascinating, but I love the fact that they recognize

1:39

the great scholarship and the engaging

1:42

communication that Doctor Dominic

1:44

Hernandez brings to us, uh, as,

1:47

as well. So we're going to have some conversation

1:49

with him. Uh, and just a minute,

1:51

but we're going to, uh, first

1:53

remind you that you can call in and

1:56

(877) 548-3675.

1:59

And a lot of times we want to know what we're going to talk about.

2:01

Well, we're going to talk a little about the History Channel, where he

2:03

was on a special about where the Garden of

2:05

Eden was. Uh, and I

2:07

learned some things that I didn't

2:09

know. I'm not sure I wanted to know them, not from Dominic.

2:12

I like what Dominic had to say. But we'll talk about that

2:14

in just a minute. For, uh. And and then

2:16

he was on another special about

2:18

the Shroud of Turin, which, of course,

2:20

is the famous, uh, alleged

2:22

burial cloth of Jesus that so many

2:25

people, um, will,

2:27

will talk about. And, you know, they made all kinds of news. So.

2:29

All right, so we're going to jump right in. Dominic Hernandez,

2:31

thank you so much for joining

2:33

us on this conversation. You're there actually.

2:35

Right. Broadcasting right from the campus of Biola

2:38

University. Right?

2:39

I'm right here in my office at Biola

2:41

University surrounded by all of

2:43

my books.

2:45

Yeah, that is a comforting place

2:47

to be. I love that, I love that now.

2:49

But you're I will tell you, your

2:52

field, like, uh, is

2:54

like, for example, you both, uh, engage

2:57

in ancient Hebrew, you know, biblical Hebrew,

2:59

and also you speak modern Hebrew.

3:01

You have, uh, degrees

3:04

from Princeton. You went on to study,

3:06

uh, you studied in Israel. I mean, you're you're

3:08

a well equipped, uh, scholar

3:11

for all these things. And and

3:14

I would say to you that having watched the History Channel documentary,

3:16

there were other well equipped scholars

3:18

there, you know, you never know what the History Channel. Could it be about

3:20

ancient aliens? It could be about whatever.

3:22

Uh, so tell me, how in the world

3:25

did you end up getting

3:27

on the History Channel?

3:29

Well, first of all, thank you for having me

3:32

on again. I really appreciate it. How

3:34

did I get on the History Channel? Well it's interesting,

3:36

I think that the the person that does

3:38

the casting just went to Biola University's

3:40

website, saw what I, what I

3:42

do, what I teach, and was interested in

3:44

having me, I guess sort of auditioned

3:47

for the show. There was a recorded kind of

3:49

brief audition, which this

3:51

person recorded me answering

3:53

some questions. And

3:56

then. And

3:58

then she sent that to

4:00

the, I guess, the director producer, and

4:03

they invited me to come on a couple of shows.

4:05

Fascinating. Fascinating. Okay, now, of course, the one

4:08

about the Garden of Eden made sense

4:10

just naturally, because you're an Old Testament scholar. Oh,

4:12

by the way, I promised that you would explain semantics

4:14

because most people don't use that word. Are

4:19

you there? Can you hear me?

4:21

Yes. So let's just try this.

4:23

Well, I'm sorry about that. We're going

4:25

to go back to the Tower of Babel. You know, at

4:27

the beginning, everyone was sort of

4:29

speaking one language. That's how the Bible

4:31

depicts this. Well, scholars

4:34

say that there was a language called proto Semitic,

4:36

which was one Semitic language

4:38

that maybe all of the people in,

4:41

let's say, the Near East or the ancient Near

4:43

East would have spoken. We don't have any proto Semitic

4:45

documents or anything, but that's like the language.

4:47

And then there were there were languages

4:49

that split off from that. There were eastern languages,

4:51

like in Mesopotamia, East of Israel,

4:54

and Western Semitic languages that split

4:56

off from that. And in the Western

4:58

Semitic languages we have languages like Hebrew,

5:01

for example, which is another

5:03

important one. And on and

5:05

in Eastern Semitic languages we have Akkadian,

5:07

which is a well known one. So what your professors

5:10

do here at Talbott, your professors of

5:12

Old Testament and Semitic, is we don't only

5:14

teach the Old Testament, we don't really

5:16

only teach Biblical Hebrew, but we also

5:18

teach the languages that are related to Biblical Hebrew,

5:20

so that we can better understand the linguistic

5:23

and literary context of the biblical texts

5:25

by comparing it to other ancient

5:27

languages.

5:29

Fascinating. Fascinating. So I you know, when I

5:31

went to seminary, I took, of course, Hebrew and

5:33

and Greek and I guess probably

5:35

like most people like going into

5:37

pastoral ministry. At the time, I probably

5:40

it was easier for me to understand Greek

5:42

and it was easier for me to engage Greek, partly because

5:44

I took three years of Latin and there's, there's,

5:46

you know, but Hebrew is just such a different

5:48

construct. The whole language

5:50

is such a different, um, a different

5:53

experience as well. Did you find

5:55

it challenging to I mean, again, just

5:57

for context, Old Testament Hebrew

5:59

or the Hebrew Scriptures, um, are

6:01

distant in from modern Hebrew

6:03

in many ways, but you've kind of mastered

6:06

both. Is it was it was it a difficult

6:08

thing to do?

6:09

Well, do you have me in my soapbox now?

6:11

Right. Because I say, come on, bring it in, Christian.

6:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Christian, we we

6:16

believe that the Bible is is the inspired

6:18

word of God. Many of us would say that we believe in something

6:20

like the verbal plenary inspiration.

6:23

But frequently Christians will focus in

6:25

on studying the New Testament in Greek

6:27

because it's where

6:29

our sort of interesting debates are. Right?

6:32

Calvinism, pre millennial ism, you know,

6:34

all these other types of things. So.

6:40

So frequently, Christians will focus

6:42

in on the New Testament and New Testament texts. Well,

6:45

if we believe that the entirety of the scriptures

6:47

are inspired, we really should dedicate a large

6:50

portion of our formal biblical and theological education

6:52

to the study of the Hebrew Scriptures and even Aramaic.

6:54

There's 269 verses in

6:56

the Old Testament in Aramaic and other Semitic

6:58

language, so I do I

7:01

do get it. I'm sympathetic to Christians

7:03

that say, oh yeah, but Greek, it comes so

7:05

much more naturally to me. But

7:07

I also say, we have to we have to put

7:09

the batteries in, as we say in Spanish and

7:12

study, uh, Biblical Hebrew and

7:14

Aramaic as well, which is about

7:16

75%

7:19

of the inspired Word of God.

7:21

75% fascinating. And and

7:23

and worth, uh, if you follow if you

7:25

don't follow Dominic on, uh, on

7:28

Twitter, Instagram, he's quite, quite

7:30

good. A lot of it's in Spanish, some of it's in English

7:32

and of course talks some about Hebrew. Just I

7:35

share some of the things that he posts. And he

7:37

recently talked to a student who was studying modern

7:39

Hebrew with him as well. Anyway,

7:41

I just think it's fascinating. And we could spend

7:43

the entirety of our time talking about

7:46

just the Old Testament in Hebrew language and

7:48

more. But we can. Let's go. Yes.

7:50

Yeah, exactly. And you would love that.

7:53

Uh, so but talk to us a little bit. So. So there

7:55

were two specials that you were on.

7:57

Are there more coming or is it just just

7:59

like you already on two, but is it two or you got others

8:01

coming?

8:03

I'd love it if there were others coming. In fact, I

8:05

was invited to do a couple of things that were

8:07

sort of out of my area, and so

8:09

I politely declined those. But

8:11

I am on, uh, their sort

8:13

of list of scholars that they do

8:15

call for certain things. So if

8:18

they, if they call me up, I might have to tell

8:20

the Dean of Talbot School of Theology that I can't teach my

8:22

classes that day because I'm going to go be on television

8:24

again.

8:24

I will fill in your Hebrew class.

8:27

I will teach River class that

8:29

day. The great thing is we got lots of other

8:31

amazing Old Testament scholars as well.

8:33

Okay, so so talk to me. So this is the special

8:36

that we're talking about. That was

8:38

uh, was the one where, where I first

8:40

sort of, sort of watched it engage was

8:42

the Garden of Eden one. And

8:44

so the, the host sort

8:46

of comes on and talks about,

8:49

you know, where was this?

8:51

And it was interesting. In some ways, they made the assumption that

8:53

there was some sort of, uh, Garden

8:55

of Eden. It was not a, it's not a Christian program

8:57

by any stretch of the imagination, but

8:59

they're engaging scriptural ideas

9:02

and, and, you know, so to start with, just talking

9:05

about if you would mind kind of explaining the

9:07

arc of the program because I know it, it ended it

9:09

a little strange. And then, well, the

9:11

last segment was a little strange, but but

9:13

throughout it was some interesting questions that

9:15

were there. So talk to us about the Garden of Eden program.

9:17

Yeah, the Garden of Eden program, you're right,

9:20

was more sort of what I do.

9:22

I, as an Old Testament professor.

9:24

And you are also right, this

9:26

show sort of supposed that there actually

9:28

was of Garden of Eden and it seemed to

9:30

the trajectory of the show was, well, if

9:33

there was and maybe there was, where

9:35

would it have been? And so I'm, I'm

9:37

featured much more in the first part

9:39

of the show, which supposes that there

9:41

was a garden that was called

9:44

Eden, at least by the time the biblical

9:46

writers wrote. And it

9:48

seems like the biblical author

9:50

of Genesis chapter two

9:52

especially tried to indicate

9:55

where that was relative to either,

9:57

uh, places that were that were

9:59

known at the time of the writing of Genesis

10:02

or places that would have been

10:04

known during, we could say,

10:07

prior to the the generation of the writing

10:09

of, of the book of Genesis.

10:12

And so that's how the show started. And then it got

10:14

into other theories with regard to way the where

10:16

the the garden may have been. One theory was

10:18

Antarctica, another theory was Northern Africa.

10:21

Another theory was Missouri. There were a couple

10:23

of other theories as to where the

10:25

garden could have been. But ultimately,

10:27

Ed and I'm not sure if you saw this social media

10:30

post. They actually had me come on,

10:32

and I gave the last word. I was the

10:34

last person that spoke on that show and

10:36

basically said, well, you know, maybe

10:38

there's nothing in the Bible that ever suggests

10:40

in any way whatsoever that

10:42

the Garden of Eden may have been in Missouri.

10:45

Uh, I thought that was kind of funny and fun.

10:47

Yeah, that was that was just so people know the reason that

10:49

Missouri is Mormonism. Mormonism has that

10:51

connection that's there. But yeah. So keep keep telling

10:53

us about the at the last second, last lesson as well.

10:57

I'm sorry. Say that again, please.

10:58

So you keep your own. You're explaining about the last

11:00

segment when you kind of have the last word. What did you point them

11:02

to?

11:03

Well, first and foremost, I

11:05

was just excited that they had me on at the end saying

11:07

that, you know, there's really nothing

11:10

in the Bible that suggests that the

11:12

Garden of Eden could have been in North America,

11:14

you know? Um, but we do

11:16

read in the book of Genesis, Genesis

11:18

chapter two, that God,

11:20

the Lord God planted a

11:22

garden in Eden in

11:25

the East. So we're kind of like, okay.

11:27

East of what? And it makes sense that we would

11:29

say that that the author would, would,

11:31

would put this east of Israel

11:34

or even east of Jerusalem more specifically.

11:37

And we know that frequently the

11:39

East is understood to be maybe

11:41

ancient Mesopotamia, which is a lot of modern

11:43

day Iraq. Right. So that's

11:45

where I was featured most. Also, we

11:47

read that there are four rivers

11:50

in, uh, the garden is

11:52

is located relative to four rivers,

11:55

two of those rivers. We know where they

11:57

currently are. So

11:59

maybe the Garden of Eden would have been ancient Mesopotamia.

12:02

But here's the hermeneutical issue.

12:04

Those of us that would believe that there was

12:06

actually a Garden of Eden also probably

12:08

believed that there was a big flood.

12:10

And that is probably what

12:13

we're going to talk about a little bit more. Isn't that right?

12:15

It is indeed it is indeed. So I want you to also,

12:18

uh, I mean, church folks have a call. Maybe you got questions.

12:20

Maybe we'll talk about the Garden of Eden question as well. (877) 548-3675

12:25

is our number again with Dominic Hernandez

12:28

from Talbot School of Theology. (877) 548-3675.

12:34

We're going to continue our conversation.

12:36

In just a moment.

12:47

Hey! We're back. It's. That's her live. We're here with Dominic

12:50

Hernandez. Actually, I work with Dominic.

12:52

I introduced myself at the beginning of the show. I'm the dean

12:54

of the Talbot School of Theology. So I had the privilege

12:56

of serving Dominic and the other faculty there and

12:58

and really just, I mean, some world class

13:01

folks. And we're so thankful for, for

13:03

these kinds of conversations. Also thankful

13:05

that Dominic would end up on the History

13:07

Channel talking about

13:09

the Garden of Eden and

13:11

more. And we're going to take your calls

13:14

in just a minute. Let me tell you again, we're going to talk some

13:16

about the the garden narrative and

13:18

more, and then we're probably going to

13:20

move to the Shroud of Turin, not because those are naturally

13:22

connected topics, but because those were two things

13:24

that were covered on the History Channel

13:26

specials that he was on. And if you're interested,

13:29

you can go to Ed, Stitcher, live.com.

13:32

And there is just the link

13:34

to the shows right there. Some people actually

13:36

listen from that link because maybe they're, you know,

13:38

we're on 250 outlets across the country, but

13:40

but not everybody has a terrestrial radio

13:42

station near them, so they're listening online. But

13:44

you can also find links to Dominic's

13:47

relatively new book last year, Engaging

13:49

the Old Testament How to Read Biblical

13:51

Narrative, Poetry and Prophecy. Well,

13:53

and you can find links to the History

13:55

Channel episodes as well.

13:58

Okay, so we I mean, there are

14:00

some, you know, physical

14:02

markers that are sort of explained

14:04

in, in Genesis about, you know,

14:07

you mentioned those rivers and the Tigris and Euphrates

14:09

and, but then it's like, what are these other

14:11

two rivers? And, and then you're going to explain

14:14

a little bit how this ties to the flood. And then we kind of

14:16

ran out of time. Let me have you pick back

14:18

up. Let me remind people again (877) 548-3675.

14:23

So take us back to what our I mean, they're

14:25

pretty familiar stories, but maybe

14:27

the details get lost as we sort

14:29

of remember the broad outlines of the stories.

14:32

Isn't that right? So as we slow down

14:34

and we read some of the details of

14:37

the Genesis chapter two account

14:39

of the creation narrative, we read

14:41

that a river flowed out of

14:43

Eden to water the garden.

14:45

So Eden seems to be a

14:47

broader place than just the garden. And then it

14:50

became Four Rivers. And out of those four

14:52

rivers we know the name

14:54

of two, the Tigris and the Euphrates,

14:56

but we don't know the name of the other

14:58

two rivers, the peasant and the

15:00

Gihon. So we're kind of like where,

15:03

where were where were these rivers? Now,

15:05

if we just pause for a second and

15:07

remember that for those

15:09

of us that would say, hey, there was a a

15:11

literal garden someplace, uh,

15:14

this is referring to some sort of literal area.

15:16

Then we probably would also think that there

15:18

was a big flood, which also

15:20

seems to be corroborated in

15:22

other ancient Near Eastern documents like

15:25

outrageous and the Epic of Gilgamesh

15:27

that talk about this big flood. So

15:29

in reality, maybe

15:32

we don't know. We can't identify

15:35

where the Garden of Eden was.

15:37

Or maybe these rivers changed their

15:40

course after the flood. I mean, we may

15:42

just not even know, but it does

15:44

seem like the author of

15:46

Genesis. Put

15:48

these markers in there to

15:50

tell at least the readership that

15:53

there was an actual location

15:55

that we could call Eden.

15:59

Yeah. It's interesting when we find, uh,

16:01

historic or geographic

16:03

markers. Um, it's not just.

16:06

It doesn't just be something. Well, you know,

16:08

there's this idea, this story, this myth.

16:10

But there are reasons that the biblical

16:12

authors and the inspiration, the Holy Spirit includes some

16:14

of those things as well.

16:17

And I want you to keep moving forward through

16:19

in a bit. But let's take a couple of phone calls. It sort of help us

16:21

a little bit to think through some of these things. Uh,

16:23

Clinton in Dundee, Florida. Clinton,

16:25

you're live on the air with your question, your comment. Go right ahead.

16:28

Yes, just wondering aloud. My

16:31

eyes are compromised so I can see the text

16:33

to double check. But is it really the

16:35

garden in Eden or

16:38

the Garden of Eden? Eden

16:40

being a larger geographical area, and

16:42

the garden is a specific, uh,

16:44

you know, location within that larger

16:47

geographical sphere.

16:49

Yeah. Super question. And I want, if you don't mind, Dominic,

16:51

to I want you to explain to us why

16:53

that matters. I mean, explain, you know, kind of answer

16:55

the question, you know, but then also unpack it a little

16:58

bit and help us understand a bit of why that

17:00

ultimately matters.

17:01

Thank you very much for this question. So

17:03

the reason why we're

17:05

this question is important, if there

17:07

is a location of the Garden of Eden, is that

17:10

it seems that there's a garden in

17:12

Eden. Right? So and by the way,

17:14

a garden in Eden can also be a

17:16

Garden of Eden. And if Eden is a broader

17:19

area, they're not really that much different.

17:21

But I'm over here looking

17:23

at the Hebrew text right now in chapter two,

17:25

verse ten, and it says

17:27

Vineyard Eden,

17:29

which means a river

17:32

flowed from Eden

17:35

to water the garden.

17:38

So it looks like there's a place

17:41

called Eden, and that this

17:43

river flowed from Eden to water,

17:45

this garden that we call the Garden

17:47

of Eden.

17:49

Fascinating. And by the way, you're the

17:51

we posted, we both posted on Twitter

17:53

this morning about the program. And,

17:55

um, you were holding in that picture,

17:58

uh, what I'm assuming you're reading from right now, which

18:00

is just a a Hebrew. No,

18:02

no English in there, just a Hebrew

18:04

Bible, is that correct? You just read that direct from the Hebrew

18:06

Bible?

18:07

Yes. It's the Hebrew Bible that I've been using in

18:09

all of my classes since I was an

18:11

MDiv student, and now I even use

18:13

it here at our classes at Talbot School of Theology in

18:15

English and in Spanish. That's my Bible.

18:18

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Because we have talent as well.

18:20

Do you want to talk about that in just a minute? To, uh, Mary's got

18:22

a question about Hebrew itself. Mary

18:24

from South Florida. You are live on the air. Go right ahead.

18:30

Mary, are you there?

18:30

Hebrew.

18:31

Oh, good.

18:32

Yes. Can

18:34

you hear me? Yeah. Yes.

18:35

Go right ahead. Hello.

18:36

Okay. So how does Hebrew distinguish

18:39

itself? This is what I've

18:41

heard. That it distinguishes itself from all

18:44

other languages, is that

18:46

it's written in a different

18:48

tense. It's like we're not going

18:50

to do something. It's

18:52

already done. Uh,

18:56

but that's like, the only way I can describe

18:58

it. No, no.

18:59

That's fine, that's fine. Let's let's have him talk some about

19:01

the uniqueness of the Hebrew language. I'm

19:03

not sure. I mean, Dominic,

19:05

I don't know that we I mean, there are obviously similarities

19:07

with other language. So unpack that a little bit from Mary's

19:09

question.

19:10

Yeah. So Mary, I'm not exactly sure

19:12

what you heard, but I can talk to you about the tenses

19:14

in Hebrew. In Hebrew there is a

19:16

a perfect tense there. There are

19:19

basically two tenses that are used very

19:21

frequently in the Old Testament. There's

19:23

a perfect tense, which is normally

19:25

in and of itself something like a

19:28

past tense or something that's already happened

19:30

is completed. And then there is an imperfect

19:32

tense which is normally

19:34

which normally talks about something that is

19:36

a continuing action or maybe even a future action.

19:39

There is frequent. There is also,

19:41

um, another sort of

19:43

tense that came into modern Hebrew as a present

19:46

tense. But in reality those

19:48

are the main tenses that we would have

19:50

in Hebrew. So Hebrew would express

19:53

sort of biblical Hebrew would express conditional

19:55

things, not necessarily with the conditional

19:58

tense or conjugation per se,

20:00

but would use a different word structure

20:02

in order to indicate things like conditionality.

20:06

Okay. The, um, one of the things

20:09

I think maybe underlying Mary, I'm not 100%

20:11

sure, but let me just kind of flow from

20:13

that and say so sometimes I hear Christians say

20:15

that Hebrew, that Hebrew is, is almost

20:18

something like a, uh,

20:20

you know, language that is, is so

20:22

unique that that in and of itself speaks

20:24

to, uh, the wonder and

20:27

glory of, of, you

20:29

know, of God's work and his creation of

20:31

this language, that it's sort of like a special

20:33

I heard somebody say that I wouldn't find this language helpful,

20:35

but it's like a magical version of a language.

20:38

Uh, and that's actually, I mean, Hebrew

20:41

is is a language that's evolved from other languages

20:43

as well. So we don't want to, uh,

20:45

but but but in some ways, it's miraculous

20:48

that it's now it's now being used

20:50

in, in Israel. So there are some pretty

20:52

remarkable things, but we don't want to.

20:54

Well, you help me in our stand. I want to overstate the remarkable

20:56

nature of it.

20:57

Well, first of all, I love the

20:59

fact that people love the Hebrew

21:01

language and want to get to you doing it. And.

21:03

Right. So this is, uh, absolutely.

21:06

A love for Hebrew is where it starts. And

21:09

you can continue to take our courses at Harvard School

21:11

of Theology in Hebrew. Isn't that right, Doctor Spitzer?

21:13

Yes, indeed.

21:14

Haha. But here's what I'll say about

21:17

about Hebrew being a unique language. It

21:19

is unique. Inherently unique in the sense

21:21

that, uh, there is a portion of what

21:23

we consider to be God's inspired word written

21:25

in this ancient Hebrew language. So

21:28

in that sense, yes, it's unique now in

21:30

terms of it being some sort of special

21:33

or heavenly language. When you study

21:35

other Semitic next to the Biblical

21:37

Hebrew language, you see that it really does

21:39

fit into its ancient

21:41

Near Eastern linguistic settings. So

21:44

it's sort of like saying, well, Spanish

21:46

is a wonderful language as a Spanish speaker

21:48

because it was the most excellent

21:50

book. Don Quixote de la mancha was

21:52

written in Spanish. Well, yes, that it is

21:54

unique. And Don Quixote is a great,

21:56

great, classic book. But at the same

21:59

time Spanish fits very naturally

22:01

into these other Latin languages. It's very close

22:03

to Italian, Portuguese, French and

22:05

Romanian. Right? So I think

22:07

that we should recognize

22:10

that it is a special language because some

22:12

of God's words written in it. But at the same

22:14

time, we can study it alongside

22:16

other languages and say, okay,

22:19

we now see how it fits into its

22:21

ancient Near Eastern setting as well.

22:23

Yeah. So, so good. Okay, let me remind people too. We're

22:25

talking well, we're talking about Hebrew now, but we

22:27

were talking primarily about the Garden of Eden the minute ago. When

22:29

I come back, back to that in just a second. Our

22:32

phone number (877) 548-3675.

22:35

I'm gonna give it to you one more time. If you want to call (877) 548-3675.

22:42

Okay, so part of what we talk about when we talk

22:44

about the Garden of Eden is, is

22:46

actually in the special as well.

22:48

You've watched the special. I've watched the special talk

22:50

to us about archaeology. I mean, there was a lot

22:52

of I mean, there's actually some pretty good

22:54

archaeology in that special. I was,

22:56

I was, um, I wouldn't like, you

22:58

know, when talking about the turkey location, things

23:01

of that sort, um, I would it

23:03

didn't lead me to the conclusion that the Garden of Eden was there,

23:05

but I was surprised at some of the level of

23:07

archaeological discussion. So talk to us about archaeology

23:09

related to the garden.

23:11

You know, I actually do you

23:13

remember exactly what what

23:15

was said about the, uh.

23:17

I don't you know, I remember like talking about the

23:19

turkey site when they were talking about the turkey site, but,

23:22

uh, but, you know, they went back and talked about when it was

23:24

discovered and things of that sort, but I guess,

23:26

you know, not so much the special in general, but, I mean,

23:28

there's archaeology help us at all. Think

23:31

about the the Garden of Eden

23:33

or is that so far back that we don't

23:35

have archaeological connections to

23:37

that?

23:38

Well, I do remember now, as we're

23:40

talking about the turkey site, that

23:42

the area that was supposedly

23:45

Turkey is also east of

23:47

Israel, and that sort of fits in with the biblical

23:49

language that it's very clearly

23:51

north, maybe even more north and

23:53

east. But in terms of archaeology,

23:56

my personal opinion, uh,

23:58

I'm not sure that archaeology can help

24:00

us that much as it relates to this. First

24:02

of all, uh, even if we

24:04

take all of the Bible's numbers and all

24:06

of the Bible chronology, uh,

24:09

genealogies to be exactly what,

24:11

you know, if we if we sort of add up the years

24:13

we're talking about lots and

24:15

lots of years ago. Right. So

24:18

it's it's very difficult to to say that there

24:20

would have been any archaeology, there could be any archaeological

24:22

find that would, uh, maybe be

24:24

related to, to Eden. And in

24:26

addition to that, to be completely frank with you,

24:29

uh, it seems that ancient Mesopotamia,

24:31

particularly between the Tigris and Euphrates,

24:34

is simply a better option if

24:36

we're talking about east of Jerusalem. That is.

24:38

And that's my that's obviously my

24:40

my take if, uh, if you if you have to

24:42

press me on this issue.

24:44

Yeah. And I think, I think I mean that's kind of the I

24:46

mean, not everybody thinks that, but most

24:48

of Angelica scholars, you know,

24:50

I mean, it's when you mention two rivers

24:52

that are in that area, it's sort of hard

24:55

to to not come to some

24:57

of that conclusion as well.

25:00

And, and of course, you know, river shifting

25:02

is a is a very real thing as

25:04

well. Um, okay. So we're going to continue our conversation

25:06

in just a moment. And again, remember we're taking your calls

25:08

and and we're going to I'm going to start

25:11

what probably still some calls in and around these,

25:13

some of these Old Testament questions. But I'm

25:15

going to then move to

25:18

a conversation about the other special Iran, which

25:20

was the Shroud of Turin special,

25:23

which is a whole nother fascinating

25:25

conversation. It's not a it's not a biblical

25:27

text question. It's a it's an historic

25:29

artifact question as well. Remember,

25:31

we're going to take your calls (877) 548-3675.

25:37

Again it's (877) 548-3675.

25:42

We're talking to Doctor Dominic Hernandez,

25:44

who's, uh, professor and teaches an Old

25:46

Testament and Semitic at the Talbot School of

25:48

Theology. And again, we want to take your calls.

25:51

(877) 548-3675.

26:06

Hey! We're back. Doctor Dominic Hernandez

26:09

is our guest.

26:10

I've interviewed him a couple times, and rightly so.

26:12

He's the associate professor of Old Testament at Semitic at

26:14

the Harvard School of Theology. But he also leads Talbert

26:17

in Espanol, which is our Spanish language

26:19

program. We're going to probably talk a little bit about that in

26:21

our final segment, but we've got some calls

26:23

coming in. So we want to we want to kind

26:25

of work through some of these calls and

26:27

we'll go through. We got kind of all over the country

26:29

different calls. So we'll jump right in. Uh, Debbie,

26:32

we're going to go first to you in page, Arizona. You're live

26:34

on the air. Go ahead.

26:35

Hi. Um, good morning. My question is,

26:38

um, you kind of poo pod Missouri as

26:40

a location of the Garden of Eden. And

26:43

I was wondering if there's anything

26:45

in the Bible for or

26:47

against Missouri. And

26:49

why does some believe

26:51

so adamantly that that is where it is?

26:54

Super question. And, Debbie, hold

26:57

on the line, too, because I think it'll be a helpful

26:59

answer. Just for the record, we love Missouri. Dominic,

27:02

tell us about the Garden of Eden related to Missouri, why

27:04

people even think that and what your thoughts are on it.

27:07

Yeah, this is a good question. So

27:10

a couple of things to start off with.

27:13

This is an issue of reading

27:15

for me, as someone

27:18

who reads the Bible as the inspired

27:20

word of God, someone that says that,

27:22

someone that thinks that what the Bible says

27:24

is true. Now we have to be good readers

27:26

of it. But when I come to the biblical text,

27:29

I try to do my best to

27:32

read and and receive

27:34

what the text is communicating concerning

27:36

even things like the Garden of Eden, which, hey,

27:38

we don't know exactly where it may have been,

27:41

but we want to do our best to

27:43

give our be good readers and give a best educated

27:45

guess. So that's where I start. And as I

27:47

come to the biblical text, I think to myself,

27:49

okay, where could this be? And

27:52

and as I said on the History Channel,

27:54

I just don't think that there's

27:56

any evidence at all that

27:59

the garden could be

28:01

in North America. It doesn't.

28:04

The biblical text does not. Suggest

28:07

that it doesn't allude to that. It's just not

28:09

there. Now, the reason

28:11

why some might think it's in

28:13

it was in Missouri is because

28:16

of the Mormon faith. Mormons

28:18

actually believe that, uh,

28:21

that God will, through an

28:23

angel, revealed himself to Joseph Smith.

28:25

And then eventually that was in New York.

28:27

But eventually the movement made its way to Missouri.

28:30

And so Mormons believe that the

28:32

Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

28:35

Yeah, I think they did. They did indicate that

28:37

on the show it's Jackson County, Missouri

28:39

was where that would be.

28:42

So that's where that comes from. I don't know that it's

28:44

necessarily a biblical idea. And Mormonism

28:46

is a, you know, distinct, separate religion from

28:48

Christianity. And adherents hold different

28:50

views, including that

28:52

one as well. Okay, good. So let's keep going.

28:54

Let's go to Elizabeth in Carmel,

28:57

Indiana. You're live on the air. Elizabeth, go right ahead.

29:00

Hi.

29:01

Good morning. Um,

29:03

does the knowledge of other

29:06

Semitic languages help

29:08

with the understanding of Hebrew

29:10

words and with translation?

29:14

Elizabeth, I want to say to you, you're not helping

29:16

today. Because by asking questions

29:18

like this, you're going to give Dominic Hernandez

29:21

the opportunity to to tell you all

29:23

about Semitic languages. And

29:25

you're fulfilling the this is the greatest moment.

29:27

Like this is the moment of his of his

29:29

of his joy today. So no great

29:31

question, Elizabeth. What do you think? Dominic?

29:34

Yes, I think it absolutely

29:36

does. So I wrote

29:38

my dissertation first monograph

29:40

on the book of job, and one

29:43

rabbi named a very famous one

29:45

named Saadia Hagen. He

29:47

said that there are at least 70

29:50

hypotheses, so 70

29:52

words that are used only one time

29:54

in the whole Bible, just in the book of job.

29:56

Now, what does that mean to us? It

29:58

means that we don't really

30:01

have lots to compare those words

30:03

and and phrases to in

30:05

the Bible. So what do we do then? Well,

30:07

we start looking at similar words

30:10

and phrases in other ancient Semitic

30:12

languages to see if we might be able

30:14

to glean from

30:16

those languages and how they're used in their

30:18

contexts. We might be able to glean

30:20

meaning with the with the biblical words,

30:22

and the biblical phrases might mean in their context.

30:25

Now, it's very important to note, we

30:27

don't think that those the extra biblical

30:30

documents are necessarily authoritative like

30:32

the Bible, but we want to do our best

30:34

to figure out what the Bible is saying. And

30:36

so we we go to these

30:38

other languages that are very closely

30:41

tied, similar to

30:43

or in similar to, uh, Hebrew,

30:45

to try to figure out maybe what some

30:47

of these difficult words and phrases might mean.

30:49

So the answer to this is absolutely, positively.

30:52

Yes.

30:53

Yeah. So in a Bible word in, you know,

30:55

Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew is

30:57

used once. That's the term

31:00

that you refer to a minute ago. Uh, we

31:02

can actually see that it's often used. For example, I'm

31:04

a little more familiar with Koine Greek that that word

31:06

is used other places. It's like, okay, so if it's use

31:08

other places, then we can learn more

31:10

about the usage, even though it's used once in

31:12

the Bible. And so and, and

31:14

in Semitic languages are, you know, there's a,

31:16

as a family of languages as well.

31:19

Do any of those just looking at

31:21

some other questions people had, do any of those,

31:24

uh, still exist today in the way that Hebrew

31:26

does? Uh, are there descendant languages

31:28

from that? How does how does that play out?

31:30

Well, absolutely. Um, Arabic

31:33

is the is the one that is,

31:36

you know, obviously the strongest Arabic

31:38

is also a Semitic language. Arabic

31:40

even, um, preserves

31:43

some of the original pronunciation

31:46

of some of the Hebrew characters. So some

31:48

Hebrew characters basically are

31:50

pronounced very similarly in Modern

31:53

Hebrew. Arabic has preserved the distinction.

31:55

So Arabic is the real strong one.

31:57

That's a very close sister language

32:00

to Hebrew. But there also are

32:02

sort of these new or neo Aramaic

32:04

dialects. There are some people that speak

32:06

that those languages. And

32:08

we could really say that, um, because

32:11

of the way that languages touch

32:14

one another, there's language contact. Now

32:16

that we have remnants of different

32:19

Semitic languages in contemporary

32:22

Semitic languages as well, like for example,

32:24

modern Hebrew, which is basically

32:27

a creation from Biblical Hebrew and

32:29

Aramaic, some Aramaic. Modern Hebrew

32:31

has has lots of Biblical

32:33

Hebrew with some syntax, like

32:35

how the words are combined. That sounds a little

32:37

bit different than Biblical Hebrew, plus

32:39

some Arabic. So words

32:41

like yalla and walla and

32:44

uh, and some Aramaic. Right? So

32:46

it's a combination of

32:48

these languages that really do. It's

32:50

quite fascinating, to be honest with you, to

32:52

go back and looked at where some of the modern

32:54

Hebrew words and phrases came

32:56

from. They're really tied to other, other

32:59

Semitic languages.

33:01

Yeah. I love when I'm teaching and preaching, you know,

33:03

going through, learning some of those things,

33:05

connecting. And while we're talking about languages, you mentioned Aramaic.

33:07

So let's talk about what Jesus spoke and,

33:10

and what the disciples may have engaged

33:12

in with their language.

33:14

Oh, geez, you really are

33:16

making my day. Thank you very much, Ed.

33:18

I know, I know, I'm here to serve you.

33:19

Yeah.

33:21

Um, so lots of people say

33:23

Hebrew. Uh, Jesus spoke Aramaic.

33:25

Lots of our Bible say Jesus

33:27

spoke Aramaic. And when

33:30

I was in seminary, I thought to myself, why in the world

33:32

would Jesus speak Aramaic

33:34

during that time? That didn't seem to make so much sense

33:36

to me, particularly because the Mishna,

33:38

which is the first part of the

33:40

the Talmud that's written

33:42

in a in a sort of dialect of Hebrew called

33:44

Messianic Hebrew, and it was written even after

33:47

Jesus was on the earth. So

33:49

I just started thinking, and I had a

33:51

friend of mine that also was a it was

33:53

my my first Hebrew teacher. He

33:56

he wrote a book about Jesus speaking Hebrew

33:59

as a first language. And so I eventually

34:01

did a paper, uh, focusing

34:03

on Jesus speaking a form

34:06

of Hebrew to

34:08

other Jewish people during the time. Now,

34:10

I'll just briefly say, I'll give one example

34:13

as to why I think Jesus probably spoke a

34:16

form of Hebrew Mishnah keeper. And that's this

34:18

when Jesus is on the cross, he cries

34:20

out, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!

34:23

I'm almost everybody that's listening is probably

34:25

familiar with that. Eli Eli lama

34:27

sabachthani. And then Mark

34:30

and Matthew, where this is recorded, they translate

34:32

what Jesus is saying into Greek.

34:35

So they left it in the original language.

34:37

But they they put they transliterated

34:40

it, they put it in Greek letters,

34:42

but it's actually a Semitic language.

34:44

So the question is what language is that?

34:47

It's a reference to Psalm 22,

34:50

which is very similar. Eli

34:52

lama Asaph Tani. The

34:55

only thing that that changes there

34:57

is the verb, as often

34:59

in the Old Testament to the word

35:02

sabachthani in the New Testament. So

35:04

why does that change? And it turns out

35:06

that the word that Jesus was using on

35:08

the cross is actually

35:11

a, we can say contemporaries

35:14

synonym of Azov.

35:16

So really what Jesus is doing is he's making

35:19

reference to Psalm 22 by

35:21

saying Lama sabachthani. But he's

35:23

doing it in a way that all of the

35:25

people that would have been Hebrew speakers during his time

35:27

would have understood, and they would have understood

35:30

that he was making reference to some 22.

35:33

Fascinating. Fascinating. We're going to continue our

35:36

conversation with Doctor Dominic Hernandez in just

35:38

a moment. We're going to get to we'll

35:40

try to do a couple more calls. I'm going to go to Gray's

35:42

Lake, Illinois when we get back in Boca Raton when

35:44

we get back. And then we're probably

35:46

going to switch topics. So so if you're

35:48

if you're holding for other topics, we're probably going to switch

35:50

topics to the Shroud of Turin just to let you know. But

35:53

again our phone number two particularly, we're going

35:55

to lean in on the Shroud of Turin. Question is

35:57

(877) 548-3675.

36:01

We're gonna continue our conversation with Doctor Dominic Hernandez

36:03

at the Catholic School of Theology in.

36:05

Just a moment.

36:17

Hey. We're back. It says Here live here on Moody Radio

36:19

Network partners and affiliates, and we're

36:21

going to go to the phones in just a moment. I think

36:24

I already kind of signal we're going to go to Halle

36:26

next and Marvin after that. But it does remind

36:28

me because Hal is actually calling from and we're not going

36:30

to be quite yet help in just a minute. House calling

36:32

from Boca Raton. And one of the few things

36:34

I know in my limited knowledge of Spanish is that's

36:37

a funny name for a city if you speak

36:39

the Spanish language. So talk to us

36:41

a little bit about. Well, first of all, you got to tell him what

36:43

that means, but also talk a little bit about what you're doing

36:45

in Talbot in Espanol, which I think

36:47

is a unique and important part of what's

36:49

going on right now at Biola.

36:51

Well, I think it's a most excellent part

36:53

of what's going on here at Biola Talbot School of

36:55

Theology of Biola University. Um,

36:59

thanks to just

37:01

so many people that have contributed over the past

37:03

couple of years to this project, we have been

37:05

able to open up a program called

37:07

Talbot in Espanol, which is basically

37:10

the same trajectory of Talbot in English,

37:12

in English, but in Espanol.

37:14

So now we are offering a certificate

37:16

program. But not just that. Instead,

37:19

sir, you know, we just got three

37:21

master's degrees approved

37:23

completely in Espanol,

37:25

completely online at a very reasonable

37:27

price. The master's degrees are the Master

37:29

of Arts and Bible Exposition, the Master

37:32

of Arts in Leadership, and the Master

37:34

of Divinity in General

37:36

and Pastoral Studies. We offer all classes

37:39

to all people men, women, different

37:41

ages. It's a different dialects

37:43

of Spanish. It is a great opportunity

37:45

for those that are in ministry or desiring

37:47

to go into Spanish speaking ministry,

37:50

to be trained completely online

37:52

and completely in Spanish at a very

37:54

reasonable rate.

37:56

I love it, I love it, and I love that you're doing this, and I love

37:58

that you just casually go from Hebrew

38:00

to Spanish to English

38:02

to, well, I could I could list more. So we're super

38:04

thankful for that as well. You didn't tell us what

38:06

Boca Raton means in Spanish. What does it mean in Spanish?

38:09

Boca means mouth and Raton

38:11

means rat. So

38:13

I guess it does.

38:14

It's the.

38:14

It's the which.

38:15

Is. It's the mouth of the rat. So let's go to

38:17

the mouth of the rat. Hal, you're live

38:19

on the air with your question to your comment. Go ahead.

38:23

Thank you. Speaking from the mouth

38:25

of the rat. Oh,

38:30

I am. When

38:34

we encounter hermeneutic challenges.

38:37

Uh. Are considering

38:39

the possibility that we

38:42

might depart from Orthodoxy some. I

38:45

feel that after reading the Bible

38:47

for many years, it will contain

38:49

hints as to which way to go, which way we should

38:51

go. Uh.

38:55

So one of the questions I face is could

38:58

Genesis 1 to 4 be fable

39:01

rather than narrative? And

39:04

I come down to the detail of talking animals.

39:07

And there's another talking animal in the Bible, of course.

39:09

Bardem's ass. Everything.

39:12

So far.

39:13

So far, so far. But get right to your question because we only got

39:15

a few minutes left. So go finish and finish it up.

39:19

The Bible says specifically

39:21

that God opened the mouth of

39:23

the donkey. It

39:25

never says the same thing about the talking snake

39:28

in Genesis. Right.

39:30

So my question would be, is

39:33

it legitimate to think of

39:35

the talking snake when an animal

39:37

is presented as talking, when we know animals

39:39

don't do that? That may be the talking.

39:42

Snake in Genesis has

39:44

something of a fable about it.

39:47

Great. Great question. Thank you. If

39:49

you hold down the line, let's let's have Dominic jump in

39:51

because this is a question that, you know, I

39:53

you know, I read John Walton

39:55

I used to teach a Wheaton and John Walton talks about

39:58

this. I've actually not been in your class.

40:00

So how do you kind of walk through the question of,

40:02

you know, what is what is

40:05

myth? What is a story to illustrate

40:07

a point? Uh, what is, you

40:09

know, temple text we get we can't get super

40:11

too technical, but but where where where are we on this?

40:13

Mike, explain it to us.

40:15

Yeah. I think when these types

40:17

of questions pop up in classes, it's always

40:19

important to define terms like what are

40:21

we talking about when we say myth

40:23

and when we say fable. So you use

40:25

the word myth initially. And if and if

40:27

we're talking about Genesis one through four

40:29

or even Genesis one 311,

40:32

those are those are always sort of combined

40:34

together prior to us getting to the Abrahamic

40:36

narrative at the end of 11, if we're talking

40:38

about those being completely fictitious

40:41

tales like in the archaic sense of the word

40:43

fable, then I would say I don't

40:45

believe them to be fable. So it

40:48

seems that we are given

40:50

specific details within

40:52

those chapters that indicate that

40:55

that there were real people like the genealogies,

40:57

that there were real locations like Eden.

41:00

Now, that doesn't mean that

41:03

it's completely history, the way

41:05

that we might understand history,

41:07

because we have to let the biblical

41:09

writers talk to us and tell us

41:12

how. Let us see how they

41:14

were writing in their time about the things

41:16

that were important, not only to them, but

41:18

theologically important for the readership.

41:20

So a fable in the sense of being

41:23

completely fictitious? No, but

41:25

history in the way that we might expect

41:27

history to be told. Probably not,

41:29

because the biblical authors were always trying

41:31

to take us. They were being selective

41:34

in their storytelling to take us

41:36

to their theological goals.

41:39

Yeah. I always think of, um, you know, the Genesis

41:42

narrative where, uh, specifically

41:44

talks about, you know, God created the sun. God created

41:46

the moon because people in that day would have worshipped the

41:48

sun and the moon. And so clearly, uh, part

41:50

of that is to say what the things that you worship.

41:52

So they're, they're the telling of

41:54

that is also has

41:57

a theological implications to

41:59

the people in and around that day. Okay. We're going

42:01

to try to get in, uh, we'll try to get it one more

42:03

call. But Marvin, I'm going to go to you and Grace Lake,

42:05

but I need you to be right to it. So,

42:07

Marvin, you are live on the air. Go

42:09

right ahead.

42:11

Thank you. Uh, my

42:13

question involves

42:16

Genesis 321 to

42:18

24, and that's the expulsion of

42:20

the garden, uh, of the

42:22

man. And,

42:24

uh, to keep it from getting back

42:27

in and getting the tree of life.

42:29

Uh, so that suggests at least it might have been possible

42:32

for him to do that. Would, uh, Doctor

42:34

Hernandez comment on that, please?

42:36

Love it. I love the question. Do we have the greatest callers?

42:39

Dominic. Tell us what.

42:40

You think was excellent. Behold,

42:42

the man has become like one of us. We read this

42:44

now, lest he reach out his hand and take

42:46

also of the tree of life, and eat

42:49

and live forever. And then there's a blank there.

42:51

Literally there's a blank there. What does

42:53

what is the blank and the blank

42:55

consist to this very day? We don't

42:57

exactly know why

43:00

God is is trying to prohibit

43:03

him from potentially living forever

43:05

or something. There's literally like

43:07

a, like an ellipsis in the Biblical Hebrew.

43:10

So the short answer to this question is

43:12

don't really know the answer to

43:15

to why if, if

43:17

even if Adam and Eve could have

43:19

gone back to the garden, what the real

43:21

consequences would have been we that's

43:24

there's an ellipsis there in the, in the Biblical Hebrew.

43:27

Fascinating. Hal and Marvin. Super questions.

43:29

Great questions throughout the show today. But but doctor

43:31

Hernandez we got it. We got to answer one

43:34

question that's kind of even out of your field. But you're in the

43:36

History Channel special which people can go to Ed

43:38

Setzer Live.com and watch the two

43:40

history. The links are right there. So Shroud

43:42

of Turin, I mean, tell us what it is and

43:44

tell us. Well, first tell us what people think it is and then

43:46

tell us what you think it is.

43:48

All right. So many people don't know what the word

43:50

shroud means. We hardly use that term

43:52

in our day and age because we, many of

43:54

us that don't work in burying

43:57

people don't wrap bodies, don't

43:59

don't anoint bodies. Right. So

44:01

a shroud is simply a linen cloth

44:03

that was used to wrap a body.

44:06

And we read in the Gospels, we read in Mark,

44:08

we read in Matthew, in Luke and the Synoptics

44:11

that there was a shroud placed

44:13

over Jesus's body. And so,

44:16

uh, there's a shroud that exists

44:18

now in Turin, Italy, that's

44:20

called the Shroud of Turin. It's a it's basically

44:23

a linen cloth about 14ft

44:25

long, like maybe a little bit more than three

44:27

feet wide. And some

44:29

people believe that it has

44:31

the image of Jesus

44:33

on it. It was it was the actual shroud

44:35

that wrapped Jesus's body

44:38

that we read about in the synoptic Gospels.

44:41

Okay. And what do we got? About

44:43

a minute left. I need you to tell us. Is

44:46

it or is it not definitively.

44:49

Okay. So if you look at the shroud,

44:51

it does. You can see the image of a person.

44:53

And it does really look that way.

44:55

It looks like there's a person I would have

44:57

and some people would say, hey, there may have been

44:59

some like maybe linen found on

45:02

it. There may have been like a coin from

45:04

the from the first century found

45:07

in the image or something like that. But

45:09

others say, wait a second, we

45:11

don't know about its existence until like the 14th

45:13

century. And it seems

45:15

that the carbon testing that we've done

45:17

really doesn't put it much earlier than

45:19

that. And so could it conceivably,

45:22

maybe have been the shroud that

45:24

was used to wrap Jesus's body? Maybe.

45:27

But the better question is what is the

45:29

likelihood that it is? And in

45:31

my opinion, the likelihood is very, very

45:33

slim.

45:35

See now, I was hoping you were going to say

45:37

that because I thought the same thing. But there are some people

45:39

who, you know, the shroud has actually been put on display

45:41

a few times. You might. My thought

45:43

is it's some beautiful art that was made,

45:46

uh, you know, in around the 14, 1500s.

45:48

I don't know the exact time. And, um, and it was

45:51

intended to, to portray this crucifixion,

45:53

this linen of the crucifixion. But

45:55

but again, super. Uh, Dominic, thanks

45:58

so much for taking the time to be on the program

46:00

with us today. Let me remind you again about

46:02

his book, Engaging the Old Testament

46:04

How to Read Biblical Narrative Poetry

46:06

and Prophecy. Well, and I would not

46:08

serve him well if I didn't say to him that he would

46:10

love to teach you Hebrew, modern,

46:13

ancient. And he'd love to do it in Spanish.

46:16

And you can find all the information about Taberna Espanol

46:18

and about all that, all listed there

46:20

at stats or Live.com. We put it in one place so

46:22

it's easy for people to find. Hey, thanks so much

46:24

to my team here is done a great job keeping

46:26

us all moving through the conversation. My producer

46:28

Karen Hendren, my engineer Bob Mauro

46:31

and Laura manning the phones today

46:33

to hear today's program again, you can go to Ed,

46:35

Stitcher, Live.com or the Moody Radio

46:37

app. And let me remind you, you can connect with

46:39

social media that stats are live and Ed

46:42

Stutz are live is a production of Moody

46:44

Radio, which is a ministry of

46:46

Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening. Today

46:49

and every Saturday. God bless.