0:01

This year in 2020, we've

0:01

all had to manage uncertainty.

0:06

But you know, ask yourself, How

0:06

did I manage that uncertainty?

0:10

What did I do? What did I do to

0:10

get through it? And then how can

0:14

you apply those same principles

0:14

or ideas to something like being

0:19

an expat, for example?

0:25

Hi, everyone,

0:25

and welcome to episode number 24

0:28

of the Emigrant's Life Podcast,

0:28

where we share stories of people

0:31

left their country to chase a

0:31

better life. I'm Daniel De Biasi

0:35

and in this episode, my guest,

0:35

Jamie and I are going to talk

0:37

about resilience, one of the

0:37

most essential skills you will

0:40

need as an immigrant. For me,

0:40

resilience is the superpower

0:44

that we as immigrant build over

0:44

time going through the

0:46

challenges we face when moving

0:46

abroad. Jamie is the founder of

0:50

Cultural Mixology. She helps

0:50

people who are going to move

0:54

abroad through coaching and

0:54

teach them the skills they need

0:56

to have a better experience in a

0:56

new country. She wrote a short

0:59

ebook titled, The Role of

0:59

Resiliency in a Global

1:03

Lifestyle. I'm going to mention

1:03

her book throughout the whole

1:06

episode, I found it very

1:06

interesting. And I recommend it

1:09

to all the people who are

1:09

planning to move abroad. You can

1:12

find it on Amazon, it costs just

1:12

$1. And it's packed with very

1:15

useful information and

1:15

exercises. You can also find the

1:18

link on the show notes at

1:18

emigrantslife.com/episode24. And

1:23

now without further ado, please

1:23

enjoy my conversation with

1:26

Jamie. Hi Jamie.

1:28

Hi, Daniel. How are you?

1:30

Pretty good. Thanks. Pretty good. Thank you. Thank you for being on the show.

1:33

Thank you so much for

1:33

having me. I'm excited to be

1:35

here.

1:36

Yeah, I'm excited as well. I think this is gonna be it's gonna be great. Do

1:38

you want to maybe introduce

1:40

yourself to the listeners. A

1:40

little bit of your background

1:43

and what Cultural Mixology is.

1:46

Sure absolutely. Well,

1:46

I'm talking to you from New York

1:49

City today. So I'm an American,

1:49

born and raised in New York, I

1:54

learned French as a child from

1:54

my mom and kind of went on to

1:58

pursue languages and cultures

1:58

and business throughout my

2:02

studies and my career. So I have

2:02

some experiences living abroad.

2:06

And for the past 12 years, I've

2:06

been running Cultural Mixology,

2:11

which helps expats and global

2:11

teams leverage the power of

2:16

cultural differences so they can

2:16

thrive in in multicultural

2:20

environments.

2:22

Because even you yourself, you you live like in multiple countries.

2:25

Yeah. So I have

2:25

experience studying and working

2:29

and living in France, I also

2:29

finished my master's program in

2:33

South Africa, I spent a lot of

2:33

extended time in Mexico for some

2:38

personal reasons. And then a lot

2:38

of work trips and travels

2:41

throughout 30 plus other

2:41

countries.

2:45

So I guess

2:45

you're experienced to be an

2:48

expat that helps you to other

2:48

people making the same decision

2:52

on going on the same path.

2:54

Absolutely. It helps to

2:54

have experienced these things.

2:58

And it helps to, you know, even

2:58

when you're not on a long term

3:02

assignment, just the value of

3:02

being overseas for other

3:06

purposes and feeling that that

3:06

discomfort sometimes, that

3:09

nervousness reminds you about

3:09

what people go through when they

3:13

make these transitions.

3:16

Yeah, exactly.

3:16

Because if you don't experience

3:18

yourself in first person, it's

3:18

hard to understand what people

3:22

normally go through when they

3:22

have to settle in a new country

3:24

and a new culture.

3:26

Absolutely.

3:27

So if we have

3:27

time, maybe we can go back and

3:30

ask you, I will ask you more

3:30

about your company, because I'm

3:33

really interested in. But in

3:33

this episode, I'd like to talk

3:36

to you about resilience. I

3:36

mentioned it, I mentioned this

3:40

topic before, multiple times

3:40

before on this podcast, because

3:44

I think resilience is the

3:44

immigrant's superpower, you

3:46

covered this very well, this

3:46

topic very well on your ebook,

3:50

the book you sent me, but for

3:50

the people that are not familiar

3:53

with the terminology, and

3:53

they're not super familiar with,

3:56

with this word, what is

3:56

resiliency or resilience?

4:00

Well, I love that you

4:00

described it as the expat

4:03

superpower and maybe in the

4:03

second edition of the book, I'm

4:06

gonna have to go back and

4:06

include that in and credit you

4:09

for that because it really is.

4:09

What I think resilience is it's

4:14

it's a certain strength or

4:14

ability that allows us to bounce

4:19

back from adversity or stressful

4:19

situations, so to to move

4:25

through these types of

4:25

situations and events in our

4:28

life without necessarily having

4:28

to go around them.

4:31

Which is kind

4:31

of the norm having this

4:34

obstacle. I mean, every people

4:34

in their life has obstacles,

4:38

because life isn't always easy.

4:38

But especially for people that

4:42

are moving abroad, we have

4:42

mostly more obstacles than the

4:46

average, let's put it that way.

4:46

But does resilience comes

4:49

automatically just by going

4:49

through life or we have to build

4:53

mucle like like through exercise

4:53

that repetition?

4:56

I wish it came

4:56

automatically from going through

4:59

life better but unfortunately,

4:59

that's that's not the way it

5:01

works, I think it's really

5:01

something that you have to focus

5:05

on cultivating. So like I said,

5:05

it's about this ability to

5:10

bounce back. And as an expat, if

5:10

you can't bounce back, then you

5:15

would either likely return home

5:15

to your home country, or you

5:20

would probably get stuck in a

5:20

really difficult place, because

5:24

being an expat, and maybe we'll

5:24

talk through the cycle later.

5:28

But it's, you know, a series of

5:28

ups and downs and events that

5:33

you have to essentially bounce

5:33

back from in order to keep a

5:37

forward momentum and to keep

5:37

moving, to keep moving forward.

5:41

So, you know, in order to do

5:41

that, you need a lot of, a lot

5:46

of skills that that kind of form

5:46

the recipe for resilience,

5:50

right? So maybe some of these

5:50

will resonate with you as an

5:53

expat but being flexible, being

5:53

curious, being self aware, the

6:00

more that we practice skills

6:00

like this, the more we can train

6:04

our brain, which is like a

6:04

muscle to practice resilience in

6:09

the everyday stressful

6:09

situations that we may come

6:12

across,

6:13

Do you think

6:13

everybody's got the same level

6:15

of resiliency, when they start

6:15

or every individual is

6:19

different?

6:20

Every individual is

6:20

different, right? Because by by

6:25

default, we all have different

6:25

personalities, some people's

6:28

personalities may or may be more

6:28

flexible and more curious.

6:31

Naturally, some people may have

6:31

been may have grown up in

6:35

circumstances that forced that

6:35

upon them, and they may have

6:38

cultivated it and some people

6:38

even end up as expats not

6:43

necessarily by choice. Sometimes

6:43

when I work with an executive,

6:47

for example, that's been sent on

6:47

an overseas assignment by a

6:51

company and has a partner or

6:51

spouse or other accompanying

6:55

family members, those people may

6:55

not be as excited about about

7:00

going. They may be going because

7:00

they feel it's a good

7:03

opportunity. And they have to

7:03

support the person who has that

7:07

that job, but they're not

7:07

necessarily on board in the same

7:11

way as if they were choosing it

7:11

for themselves.

7:14

We covered this

7:14

in another episode with Jana,

7:16

when she was talking about her

7:16

kids when she moved abroad with

7:19

the kids. And it takes take some

7:19

time for for other people to

7:23

adjust more than the person who

7:23

actually makes the decision.

7:27

Because they don't have control,

7:27

they maybe don't have the same

7:30

kind of motivation to actually

7:30

do it. And even even that makes

7:34

more takes longer to accept the

7:34

decision.

7:37

Yeah, and I think one of

7:37

the additional factors there is

7:41

that, you know, often if you if

7:41

you look at a family that's

7:45

moving overseas, and you have

7:45

the person who you know, I work

7:48

with a lot of executives, so you

7:48

have the executive who's being

7:51

sent on an assignment. And then

7:51

maybe you have a partner or

7:55

spouse and children, the

7:55

children automatically get into

7:59

a routine and school. So that's

7:59

really important. They get on

8:02

that autopilot of you know,

8:02

waking up going to school,

8:06

coming home doing homework, the

8:06

person who's been sent on the

8:09

assignment has a routine of

8:09

work, getting to the office

8:14

getting getting settled. But

8:14

it's often the other person, the

8:18

partner, the spouse, or maybe

8:18

even their other family members

8:22

that have come along that really

8:22

need to create a routine from

8:25

scratch. And so we, we often

8:25

underestimate how much we go

8:30

through autopilot in our lives

8:30

and how much that routine

8:33

supports our ability to then

8:33

focus on developing other

8:37

aspects. So it can be really

8:37

hard when you are the person

8:41

that needs to start creating

8:41

routine, whether that's

8:45

enrolling in classes, getting a

8:45

family settled, looking for

8:48

work, whatever it is you choose

8:48

to do with your time, but you

8:52

need to do that from square one.

8:55

Yeah, I mean,

8:55

that's a good point, actually.

8:57

Because, as you said, for kids,

8:57

and for the person who has to

9:02

move abroad and going back to

9:02

work in another country, they

9:05

have a routine so they're kind

9:05

of like they have a busy life

9:07

where they don't have much time

9:07

to actually focus on what's

9:10

going on. They're just going for

9:10

the days without even thinking

9:13

about what's really going on.

9:13

But for people that they have to

9:17

build this schedule, and it's

9:17

not something set on stone for

9:21

them, it's even harder because

9:21

then you have to deal with the

9:24

difference between the previous

9:24

life to the new life and it's it

9:28

takes even more resilience to

9:28

get into the new culture, into

9:32

the new with the new schedule or

9:32

create a new schedule.

9:35

Absolutely. And it's one

9:35

of the intangible things that we

9:38

we often miss without realizing

9:38

when we move because you know,

9:42

we often talk about things we

9:42

miss that are that are tangible.

9:46

We talk about missing our home

9:46

or a favorite restaurant,

9:50

certain foods, friends, family,

9:50

but we don't think about missing

9:55

this routine because it's

9:55

normally just the underpinning

9:58

of our life that allows us to do

9:58

all the other things that we do

10:02

normally, when we're in our home

10:02

country say.

10:06

Totally. And

10:06

speaking of food, because you

10:09

touched this kind of like a

10:09

topic, maybe because I'm

10:11

Italian, I, for me, I focus more

10:11

on food when you were talking,

10:15

but you discuss this in your

10:15

adjustment cycles. And maybe

10:20

it's time for now to do to start

10:20

talking about these cycles

10:24

because I think could be like a

10:24

really beneficial for people

10:26

that are planning to move

10:26

abroad. Being aware that this

10:30

cycle are kind of the natural

10:30

path you have to go through from

10:35

the time you move to a new

10:35

country to the time you were

10:37

settling down and you integrate

10:37

with the culture and you create

10:40

a new life. So what are these

10:40

cycles?

10:43

Yeah, so there are very

10:43

well researched and studied

10:47

patterns of adjustment that

10:47

people move through. And, you

10:50

know, I've seen it represented

10:50

as a as a W curve, I've seen it

10:54

represented as just a series of

10:54

ups and downs. And so the one

10:58

that I that I tend to favor and

10:58

relate to and work with is the

11:02

one that I'll describe to you.

11:02

And you know, you can almost

11:06

visualize it. Some people

11:06

visualize it like a roller

11:09

coaster, sometimes it's not so

11:09

steep, it could just be small

11:13

peaks and valleys. But usually,

11:13

before we go overseas, we have a

11:18

mix of emotions. So we're kind

11:18

of above and below, right,

11:22

almost imagine kind of a

11:22

straight line that represents

11:24

your life at home. And before

11:24

you move, you have that

11:27

excitement kind of above the

11:27

line, this is an adventure, I'm

11:30

looking forward to it. And then

11:30

you have those feelings below

11:33

the line where you're, you're

11:33

nervous, you're you're anxious,

11:37

you're not sure what awaits you,

11:37

there's so much uncertainty. And

11:41

you know, when you arrive, it's

11:41

often the honeymoon period for

11:44

people, because everything's new

11:44

and exciting. So we're not

11:48

necessarily thinking about the

11:48

long term. But we're just, you

11:51

know, maybe doing some

11:51

sightseeing, trying some new

11:54

foods or unpacking, or looking

11:54

for a place to live or getting

11:58

all our basic necessities

11:58

settled in a way. But the first

12:03

dip that we tend to encounter

12:03

has to do with external things.

12:08

So you know, maybe anything that

12:08

would be easy at home becomes a

12:12

monumental task. So maybe you

12:12

try to find a store you're

12:17

looking for. And instead of, you

12:17

know, taking 20 minutes, you go

12:20

the wrong direction and an hour

12:20

and a half later, you still

12:23

haven't gotten there. Or you go

12:23

to the supermarket, and you look

12:26

for a favorite ingredient or

12:26

something that you need to cook

12:30

with. And you just can't find

12:30

it,

12:32

That's exactly

12:32

what I was talking about before

12:35

about food, like where's my

12:35

tomato sauce? Where's my

12:38

favorite cheese?

12:39

Exactly. Or even worse,

12:39

you buy something that you think

12:42

is one thing only to come home

12:42

and realize it's another because

12:45

you can't read the ingredients

12:45

on it. So you may think that

12:48

you're buying one thing and

12:48

realize it's totally different.

12:51

So those are a lot of you know,

12:51

external things that every exat

12:55

basically has to move through

12:55

that part of the cycle. Because

12:58

if you want to settle somewhere,

12:58

you need to have your basic

13:01

necessities settled. So once you

13:01

come through that external shock

13:07

of sorts, you come to a place

13:07

that we might call a surface

13:10

adjustment. And that's a place

13:10

that sometimes people stop that

13:16

you may stop in your adjustment

13:16

there, perhaps you're not really

13:19

interested in the deep dive

13:19

learning about the culture,

13:23

perhaps you will never learn the

13:23

local language enough to truly

13:29

integrate. So imagine that, you

13:29

know, you're an English speaker

13:33

who moves to rural China, it's

13:33

going to become really hard to

13:38

have that level of language

13:38

ability to integrate on a deeper

13:41

level. Or sometimes military

13:41

families, they may be living on

13:46

a base in a foreign country but

13:46

not really immersed in the

13:50

culture. So often people stop

13:50

there, but then if they don't,

13:55

they can continue on. In which

13:55

case you'd go through the second

14:00

dip, which is more the internal

14:00

shock that's when we question

14:03

ourselves this is when their

14:03

resilience comes into play a lot

14:07

because maybe we think, you

14:07

know, I used to feel really

14:10

funny in Italian and you know,

14:10

in English, I don't know people

14:14

don't find me as funny or I used

14:14

to feel really efficient at work

14:18

and time moves differently in

14:18

this culture. So we have a lot

14:22

of self doubt in this stage.

14:22

That's where we really do need

14:25

to cultivate that resilience to

14:25

move through and eventually come

14:29

to this point of integration.

14:32

That's why I

14:32

found this very interesting.

14:34

First of all, the part that you

14:34

say on the first the initial

14:37

shock when you said on your on

14:37

your book that those kinds of

14:41

obstacles like simple things

14:41

like you know finding something

14:43

in a supermarket can make you

14:43

angry, it can even make you like

14:46

judgmental against the new

14:46

culture like, why these people

14:49

putting the another tomato sauce

14:49

in this isle where it should be

14:52

on another isle. I had this

14:52

probably the trying to find

14:55

saffron, because in Italy it's

14:55

usually at the counter, and I

14:59

took me I don't know how many

14:59

months trying to find saffron or

15:01

even like yeast, for make pizza

15:01

dough. Its completely different

15:05

is completely different for me

15:05

and so it was like, not

15:07

judgmental but probably in a

15:07

kind of way. It was like a kind

15:10

of judgment of why things are

15:10

the same way than my country? I

15:13

always grew up this way, I

15:13

thought that was the right way

15:16

to do it. And then you go to a

15:16

new country its different nd you

15:19

kind of become judgmental. When

15:19

I read your book, your ebook and

15:23

going through this cycle, I kind

15:23

of I laugh at myself, because I

15:27

totally did that. I totally went

15:27

through those stages of the

15:30

internal shock and and then

15:30

moving forwards to the surface

15:34

adjustments when you said some

15:34

people stay there, do you think

15:37

like they stay in the in the

15:37

surface adjustment or moving

15:40

forward to actually integrate?

15:40

Does it depend of your

15:45

motivation to why you move to a

15:45

new country?

15:48

I think there are a lot

15:48

of factors certainly motivation

15:51

or lack thereof is is one of

15:51

them. But you know, it's all

15:56

relative, also. So the

15:56

circumstances we're moving to or

16:01

moving from could be perceived

16:01

as more favorable or less

16:04

favorable, they could be

16:04

perceived as safer or more

16:09

dangerous, right, with filled

16:09

with more opportunity or less

16:12

opportunity for us. So you know,

16:12

I think that it is very relative

16:18

in each circumstance. So we, we

16:18

can say it's the same thing. I'm

16:22

just gonna pick random countries

16:22

here, I don't know, moving from

16:25

Brazil to Japan as moving from

16:25

Saudi Arabia to Canada, you

16:31

know, they're all going to

16:31

present their own set of

16:36

challenges, which could impact

16:36

how we feel about our desire to

16:41

truly understand or or settle

16:41

into a particular culture.

16:47

Yeah,

16:47

absolutely. For example, if

16:49

somebody wants to move to Japan,

16:49

because they're passionate about

16:52

Japanese, manga, Japanese comic,

16:52

that kind of things, they really

16:55

want to go there, even though

16:55

it's maybe they're coming from

16:58

Europe, or from a western

16:58

country where the language

17:01

everything is different. So the

17:01

culture shock, it's a big

17:04

culture shock, because the

17:04

willingness, and it's like a

17:08

kind of their dream to live in

17:08

this country, that I think

17:11

they're more willing to overcome

17:11

these obstacles, like learning a

17:15

language, integrate with the

17:15

culture, because that's their

17:17

dream. But if somebody is sent

17:17

to Japan, or another, another

17:21

country where you have these

17:21

cultural shock, but they're not

17:24

willing to, or they don't have

17:24

the same kind of motivation to

17:28

why integrating the culture in

17:28

the case can be even harder to

17:31

overcome and overcome these

17:31

waves or pass the surface

17:35

adjustment and go into the

17:35

integration part of the of the

17:38

curve.

17:39

Absolutely. And I've

17:39

always said that people's

17:43

attitude towards their move

17:43

overseas is the biggest

17:48

determining factor just in my in

17:48

my opinion. Because, you know,

17:52

often people ask, what's the

17:52

most challenging country to move

17:55

to? Or, you know, what, is it

17:55

easier if you've done it four or

18:00

five times already? And, you

18:00

know, I think it's your

18:03

attitude. I say this, you know,

18:03

repeatedly, I've worked with

18:08

expats that are on their fifth

18:08

assignment, and they're so

18:11

humble, and they tell me, Jamie,

18:11

pretend like I'm a blank slate,

18:15

I don't know anything I'm

18:15

curious to learn. And then I've

18:18

worked with people that are

18:18

moving for the first time and

18:22

think that they already know

18:22

everything. And so it's really

18:25

about your, your mindset. And

18:25

that goes back to resilience.

18:29

Right? How self aware are you?

18:29

How curious, are you about

18:33

things about the world about the

18:33

country to which you're moving?

18:36

And speaking of

18:36

people that move to multiple

18:38

country? Do you think these

18:38

cycles stays the same? The

18:42

question is, do you think the

18:42

initial shock gets amplified

18:46

when you lived in multiple

18:46

countries? Because I can give

18:50

you a little bit of my story and

18:50

why I came up with this with

18:53

this question is because I left

18:53

Italy, because I didn't want to

18:56

live in Italy. So when I moved

18:56

to New Zealand, everything is

18:59

okay, thre's obstacles, but I

18:59

don't have any other choice.

19:02

Because I didn't have the

19:02

option. In my mind, I didn't

19:05

have the option to move back to

19:05

Italy, so it's okay. There's

19:07

these obstacles, I have to go

19:07

over because that's the only way

19:11

to go. That's the only way to

19:11

move forward if I didn't have

19:13

any other choice. But now that I

19:13

moved to Canada, on the second

19:17

way where things are different,

19:17

you can feel like a judgmental,

19:20

you feel frustrated. You can not

19:20

just compare the new country, in

19:25

my case Canada with Italy, then

19:25

you compare with New Zealand

19:28

like and that's where you go on

19:28

the surface adjustment, and you

19:32

go into this fork as you

19:32

describe a fork to integrate to

19:35

this culture or maybe you have

19:35

to move back to another country

19:37

maybe have to move back to New

19:37

Zealand, or Italy is just made

19:41

it and we're just you find these

19:41

with other people as well that

19:45

maybe the country I picked, the

19:45

last country that big there's no

19:49

actually doesn't fit with my

19:49

lifestyle. Maybe another country

19:52

it is and so that's why I can't

19:52

get integrated with the culture.

19:56

Because I don't feel like this

19:56

is the place I want to be.

20:00

Well, I don't think

20:00

you're weird at all. And I do

20:05

think that, you know, every,

20:05

every experience overseas is

20:11

different. And the cycle is the

20:11

same, what I would say makes a

20:18

difference is perhaps the speed

20:18

at which we're able to move

20:22

through it. Hopefully, when we

20:22

do something repeatedly,

20:26

anything repeatedly in life, we

20:26

get better at it. I mean, that

20:30

that's the hope that's the goal.

20:30

And so we get better at the

20:35

experience of having to adjust.

20:35

So maybe when you move to

20:41

Canada, now, you have more self

20:41

awareness, you realize that

20:45

you're feeling judgmental in the

20:45

supermarket, like you can

20:48

pinpoint it when you can't find

20:48

the pasta sauce, or the saffron

20:51

or the yeast in the aisle that

20:51

it's supposed to be in your

20:54

mind. So, you know, you can

20:54

almost have a pause, like, Okay,

20:58

I know this, you know, I've been

20:58

through this, this is

21:01

frustrating, and being

21:01

judgmental, but you can actually

21:04

label it for yourself. Whereas

21:04

sometimes the first time we go

21:08

through it, we can even label

21:08

it. We don't even know what's

21:11

going on, we just know that

21:11

we're feeling this tremendous

21:13

sense of frustration about

21:13

something. So I would say that,

21:17

yes, the cycle is the same. But

21:17

maybe we hopefully we gain

21:22

skills that that allow us to

21:22

move through it faster. Or to

21:26

make a judgement, there's no

21:26

judgment call. There's no saying

21:29

that every just because we

21:29

identify as an expat that every

21:34

culture we move to is going to

21:34

be a positive experience. We're

21:38

humans, we have preferences. And

21:38

I think the point is we can

21:42

prefer we can say, you know, I

21:42

preferred living in New Zealand,

21:46

without making a judgement and

21:46

saying Canada's a terrible

21:50

place, which it's not, right?

21:50

So,

21:54

Yeah, no,

21:54

absolutely. I agree. That's why

21:57

I think knowing the cycles and

21:57

be familiar with the cycles, can

22:01

help you when you're moving

22:01

abroad. Because some people can

22:05

think of, Oh, I don't like this

22:05

place, I feel judgmental. I'm

22:10

even like going through learning

22:10

a language and the frustration

22:13

of learning a language and you

22:13

feel like, you don't feel like

22:16

you've settling in. And knowing

22:16

that this is like a normal path

22:20

forward that everybody goes

22:20

through, makes you aware that

22:23

maybe it's not that you're not

22:23

good enough, it's not that

22:26

you're can't overcome these

22:26

obstacles, or maybe why there's

22:31

so many obstacles in my way, and

22:31

it should be easier. So knowing

22:35

that these obstacles are normal,

22:35

this way of feeling about these

22:39

obstacles and the way you start

22:39

feeling like a ups and downs

22:43

when you settling down, knowing

22:43

that before ends, for people

22:46

that are trying to move abroad, I think that could be very helpful, because it's not like,

22:48

oh, things are working out here,

22:52

it's probably better if I go

22:52

back back to my country or

22:55

whatever. It's just normal, you

22:55

have to go through it. And just

22:58

on the other hand, you can see the outcome.

23:01

Absolutely, it always

23:01

helps, it's part of the

23:03

preparation to, to know what's

23:03

coming. And for any listeners

23:08

who are getting ready to head

23:08

overseas for the first time, I

23:12

would, you know, encourage them

23:12

to think of this process, but

23:15

apply it to a change they've

23:15

already had. So maybe when they

23:19

started a new job, or maybe when

23:19

they moved somewhere else

23:24

domestically, because we do

23:24

follow the same patterns, we

23:27

could be excited to start a new

23:27

job and nervous and then when we

23:31

first get there, you know, we're

23:31

getting settled, and then we

23:34

realize we can't find where the

23:34

coffee is. And you know, then we

23:39

have to adjust to the corporate

23:39

culture, or the organizational

23:43

culture. So, for any change,

23:43

people have experienced, they

23:47

could think about this cycle and

23:47

think about how they handled

23:50

that. And, you know, then apply

23:50

that to their upcoming move.

23:55

One other thing

23:55

I read on your book, I found it

23:58

really interesting that there's

23:58

a survey that people do living

24:02

abroad for five years or longer,

24:02

actually more satisfied than the

24:06

people in the honeymoon phase,

24:06

which is the phase at the

24:09

beginning when everything is

24:09

great, because you move abroad,

24:11

you feel like on holiday, people

24:11

that actually live in there for

24:14

longer, I feel more satisfied

24:14

than those people, which is

24:17

fascinating.

24:18

Yeah, well, it's it's a

24:18

different feeling, right? I

24:21

mean, it's the difference

24:21

between being on being on

24:24

vacation and then being

24:24

somewhere long term, they can

24:28

both have their positives and

24:28

their excitement. But certainly,

24:32

there's a lot more certainty

24:32

once we're settled in a place

24:36

and that may increase our levels

24:36

of happiness.

24:41

You say that,

24:41

or the study says it takes about

24:44

nine to 12 months at least, to

24:44

reach their level of

24:48

integration.

24:49

Yes. So you know, I would

24:49

take that figure as a as a good

24:54

framework. You know, I think

24:54

again, it depends. Have you been

25:00

to this country or culture

25:00

before, do you speak the

25:03

language at all? You know, like,

25:03

what's your exposure level?

25:06

Then? How do you feel about it?

25:06

But, you know, we we don't know

25:11

what we don't know, when we move

25:11

overseas. So no matter how much

25:15

we think we know, we don't know

25:15

what we don't know. And so we do

25:18

need to allow ourselves a period

25:18

of time to go through all of the

25:24

different seasons, if you will,

25:24

of an expat experience. And I

25:30

think that, you know, giving

25:30

yourself at least a year to

25:34

reach some feelings of

25:34

integration is a very reasonable

25:39

timeframe. The reality is that,

25:39

in my opinion, a lifetime is

25:44

really not enough to know

25:44

everything about a culture

25:47

that's not your own. So there

25:47

will be a lot of cycling

25:51

between, you know, the last few

25:51

phases between the the internal

25:56

adjustments that you may choose

25:56

to make, and the integration.

26:01

Absolutely. And

26:01

I can definitely relate to that.

26:04

Because usually, I noticed it

26:04

takes around a year roughly to

26:09

figure out if you want to stay

26:09

in the country or not. But even

26:12

that, that depends on how much

26:12

you push yourself to integrate,

26:16

how willing you are to find new

26:16

friends, meet new people and try

26:20

new things. Because if you live

26:20

in your own apartment, you don't

26:24

go outside and explore the city,

26:24

you don't see the beauty of the

26:26

city or the new place, or you

26:26

don't speak with people, you

26:29

don't meet new people, local

26:29

people, it's harder to

26:33

integrate, you don't really feel

26:33

integrated until you have some

26:37

sort of like a people around you

26:37

and some familiarity with, with

26:42

the place you moved in.

26:43

And what you're

26:43

describing is really again, in

26:46

line with resilience, because

26:46

resilience is about moving

26:49

through a tough situation

26:49

instead of moving around it. And

26:54

so yes, we can all move

26:54

somewhere else, and then choose

26:58

to not immerse ourselves, and,

26:58

and just get our basic

27:03

necessities set, but not

27:03

actually put ourselves in that

27:07

uncomfortable position. But

27:07

resilience is about being

27:11

uncomfortable. So going out,

27:11

making new friends, trying new

27:15

places, testing our language

27:15

skills, and then being able to

27:20

get through the stressful

27:20

situation by by trying by, you

27:25

know, by continuing to pursue

27:25

and not not avoiding not moving

27:29

around something.

27:31

And do you have

27:31

any recommendation or advice for

27:35

people to I don't know, build

27:35

resilience? For example, how do

27:38

I know or how do I build my own

27:38

resilience?

27:42

So you know, I think

27:42

resilience is a lot of a lot of

27:46

skills that we may have used, we

27:46

may be using already. And then

27:51

the question is, how can I use

27:51

this in my new environment? So I

27:56

would encourage people to think

27:56

about when was a time in your

27:59

life when you showed

27:59

flexibility? When was a time in

28:03

your life when you showed

28:03

courage? When was a time when

28:07

you, you know used your

28:07

intuition? Or you asked for help

28:12

before the sex pad experience?

28:12

And look at those times? And

28:16

what did they feel like? And how

28:16

did you do it? And how can you

28:19

use those skills in this new

28:19

situation? Now, we all have

28:24

these skills. And if we think

28:24

back, we've done it, we're just

28:27

maybe not as aware of it,

28:27

because they've come more

28:30

naturally to us and another

28:30

situation. But these are all

28:34

skills that we want to be

28:34

reusing now to build resilience

28:39

in the new culture.

28:40

Are you familiar with stoicism?

28:42

I'm not I'm certainly not

28:42

an expert in it. But I'm

28:44

familiar with the basic

28:44

principles of it.

28:48

Yeah, no, same.

28:48

I'm not I'm not an expert

28:50

either. But when I was reading

28:50

your ebook, and we're talking

28:54

about resilience and how to

28:54

overcome resilience, that's one

28:57

of the things that came to my

28:57

mind like the basic of stoicism.

29:01

So when something happens to

29:01

you, you don't focus on the

29:05

things you cannot control, but

29:05

you focusing on what you can

29:08

control. So for example, it's

29:08

raining outside that you were

29:11

planning to go for a run, for

29:11

example, you're not focusing, oh

29:14

my god, it's raining. I don't

29:14

want to go outside. You actually

29:17

focusing on Okay, it's raining

29:17

outside, but I want to go, I

29:20

want to go running anyway. Okay,

29:20

maybe I put a rain jacket on.

29:24

Maybe I could change different

29:24

clothes or that kind of things.

29:27

That's a stupid example like a

29:27

super basic example. But the

29:31

basic of stoicism is focusing on

29:31

what you can control against

29:36

what you can't control.

29:37

Yeah. And I think that

29:37

from my understanding, you know,

29:41

stoicism is a little bit, it's

29:41

almost more an approach to life.

29:46

And I see resilience a little

29:46

bit more as a skill to

29:50

cultivate. And I think also, a

29:50

big part of resiliency is this

29:56

idea of bouncing back kind of

29:56

going through something that

30:00

doesn't go well and then

30:00

bouncing back. So the stoicism

30:05

part in your example is okay,

30:05

it's raining, it's miserable

30:09

outside, how will I approach

30:09

this, I'm gonna put on my rain

30:12

jacket, and I'm gonna run

30:12

anyway, the resilience part of

30:16

running is I went out to run and

30:16

I had a really bad run, I didn't

30:24

hit my, you know, my splits and

30:24

I didn't make the PR. But how

30:30

can I do this better next time?

30:30

So I see it a little bit like a

30:34

little bit more movement in

30:34

resilience. And I don't know,

30:37

this is just like my own

30:37

thoughts about it but little bit

30:40

more of that like a ball

30:40

bouncing back, and the stoicism

30:43

a little bit more like the way

30:43

you travel down a path.

30:47

Okay, yeah, no,

30:47

no, you, you're right, you're

30:49

right. I used the example of

30:49

stoicism for people that, for me

30:54

it's a kind of like a way to

30:54

start like sometimes it's harder

30:57

to think, okay, it went bad,

30:57

probably I'm not good at it,

31:01

that kind of thing so you kind

31:01

of have to be mindset, maybe

31:03

using stoicism as a tool to

31:03

become more resilient.

31:07

I think they're

31:07

absolutely very closely related.

31:11

There's there's definitely

31:11

connections that like you said

31:14

there and then that stoicism is

31:14

is about, you know this this

31:19

self control, like how we kind

31:19

of control maybe even our

31:22

emotions when we encounter the

31:22

adversity. Whereas I would say

31:26

resilience is about allowing

31:26

ourselves to experience all of

31:30

these emotions, like that's

31:30

okay. And then how, how do we

31:33

move forward from them. So there

31:33

are definitely a lot of

31:36

interesting connections. And I'd

31:36

love to read, read more about

31:39

it. Again, maybe the second

31:39

edition of the book, you might

31:43

have to co author it with me.

31:45

Okay, I don't

31:45

know if my English is that good

31:48

to write a book, but I'll do my

31:48

best to help you out. And go

31:53

speaking of books on your ebook,

31:53

we also cover the part where you

31:57

talking about the brain, how our

31:57

brain works. I know it's a lot

32:01

to digest, maybe it's a lot to

32:01

cover in one episode, the

32:04

podcast, but can you maybe

32:04

reassume like I don't know, in a

32:08

few words, or in a few

32:08

sentences,

32:10

I can talk about a little

32:10

bit about the relationship with

32:12

the with the with the brain and

32:12

or is and resilience, you know,

32:16

try to give you the nutshell

32:16

version. But you know, if we

32:20

think of our brain with three

32:20

main parts, the the oldest part

32:24

is the reptilian part, that's

32:24

our fight or flight instinct.

32:28

So, you know, million years ago,

32:28

that was when we were being

32:31

attacked by a tiger. Now it's

32:31

anything new or different that

32:36

that threatens us. So you know,

32:36

it could just be being in the

32:40

being in the supermarket and

32:40

seeing something different. And

32:43

having that real moment of

32:43

annoyance and frustration. The

32:46

limbic part of our brain is the

32:46

part that processes more

32:50

emotions, memories, hold our

32:50

values. So this is where we get

32:55

judgmental about things,

32:55

something's right or wrong,

32:58

something's good or bad. And

32:58

then the neocortex and more

33:03

specifically, the prefrontal

33:03

cortex of our brain is it's like

33:07

our center of learning. And so

33:07

the idea is to access that part

33:12

of our brain as much as

33:12

possible. That's where we're

33:14

able to build trust with people.

33:14

That's where we're able to

33:20

consciously learn new habits,

33:20

and new skills. So, you know,

33:25

we're constantly fluctuating

33:25

throughout these different parts

33:29

of our brain all day long.

33:29

nobody uses the the neocortex or

33:34

the prefrontal cortex 100% of

33:34

the time, but the more we can

33:38

get aware, or be aware of, you

33:38

know, which part of our brain is

33:43

being activated in a certain

33:43

moment, then we generate that

33:47

self awareness, and we have a

33:47

better capacity to switch and

33:51

use our higher brain when

33:51

necessary.

33:54

Yeah. And also

33:54

on your E book, you can kind of

33:58

have some exercise a question,

33:58

you ask yourself, to figure out

34:02

what part of the brain you're

34:02

using and how to use those parts

34:05

of the brains, right?

34:06

Absolutely. So there are,

34:06

you know, our body there's, I

34:10

actually just read a wonderful

34:10

book called, Your Body is Your

34:12

Brain, by Amanda Blake, and, you

34:12

know, our brain, our body is

34:17

sending signals to our brain

34:17

before we realize it all the

34:20

time. So, you know, in your

34:20

example, I'm going to go back to

34:24

you in the supermarket looking

34:24

for the pastas, the house or the

34:27

saffron. Right? And, you know,

34:27

you know, I would think about

34:31

when we what's going on in your

34:31

body, right? How did you feel,

34:34

what, what physical cues, what

34:34

emotional cues, what mental cues

34:39

were going through your mind,

34:39

and for each part of our brain,

34:43

they would they would look a

34:43

little different. So maybe in

34:45

the, the reptilian part of our

34:45

brain when we're we're really

34:49

stressed out or our shoulders

34:49

are tight or our stomach, you

34:53

know, our gut gets in knots, and

34:53

then maybe in the limbic part of

34:58

our brain where, you know, we're

34:58

just little tense, we're not,

35:01

we're not feeling those

35:01

butterflies in the stomach, but

35:04

we're not, we're not relaxed.

35:04

And then maybe we notice when

35:07

we're using our higher brain,

35:07

that, you know, our body is very

35:11

relaxed. We're taking deep

35:11

breaths. So we don't feel that

35:14

tension. So on every level of

35:14

the physical level, the

35:18

emotional level and the thinking

35:18

level, our body is sending our

35:24

brain these messages all the

35:24

time. It's just that self

35:27

awareness of getting in touch

35:27

with them.

35:30

Yeah, that's

35:30

very interesting. Is there

35:33

anything else that you want to

35:33

add that we didn't go over that

35:37

you think it's gonna be

35:37

interesting for the listeners?

35:39

I guess the last thing I

35:39

would add is just that

35:43

everybody's capable of doing

35:43

this. And it's not just me

35:46

saying it, brain science as it.

35:46

So this idea of neuroplasticity,

35:51

which means that even as adults,

35:51

we can create new wires in our

35:56

brain. It's really powerful.

35:56

Before the 1970s, people

36:00

thought, once you're an adult,

36:00

your brain is formed. And it's

36:03

going to be really hard to or

36:03

impossible to create new wiring.

36:08

And we know now that that's not

36:08

the case. It's one of those

36:11

things in life that is simple,

36:11

not easy. So you know, it's a

36:16

simple fact that we can create

36:16

new wiring, we can become more

36:20

resilient, we can learn the

36:20

skills that we need to make us

36:24

successful overseas. But it's

36:24

not easy. It takes a lot of

36:29

practice, it takes a lot of

36:29

conscious work takes a lot of

36:32

paying attention to ourselves to

36:32

the things around us. But I

36:36

guess I'd want to leave

36:36

listeners with the message that

36:38

it is, it is absolutely a

36:38

possibility supported by

36:43

science.

36:44

Yeah, it's hard

36:44

to listen for, in my opinion,

36:47

it's hard to know when this

36:47

thing's are happening. It just,

36:50

you can just see yourself down

36:50

the path looking backwards, and

36:54

you can see how far you gone.

36:54

And that's the thing about

36:57

resilience, it don't see it on

36:57

everyday life. But maybe you see

37:01

like in the big things that

37:01

something happened in your life.

37:04

And you see how you react to the

37:04

situation and how you bounce

37:08

back, as you said, like, Oh, I'm

37:08

actually I am resilience more

37:12

than I've never thought. For me,

37:12

the things came, I don't know if

37:16

it was natural, just going

37:16

through like the same things in

37:19

life, the same obstacle, just go

37:19

with overcoming obstacles, you

37:22

can get more resilience

37:22

automatically. I don't know

37:24

exactly how I got to where I

37:24

where I got, but I can

37:28

definitely see myself different

37:28

from the person I was seven

37:31

years ago before I left Italy.

37:31

And then definitely make me more

37:35

resilience that's going back to

37:35

the immigrants superpower.

37:39

That's the thing, what

37:39

differentiates us from people

37:42

born in the same country. And

37:42

resilience, especially in 2020

37:47

are like in the period, like,

37:47

like now with COVID. And the

37:51

economy, we don't know what's

37:51

going on. And I think people

37:54

with more resilience are, are

37:54

more willing to do the things

37:59

that other people are not

37:59

willing to do. For example, if

38:02

you lose your job, if you're an

38:02

immigrant, I mean, let's put it

38:05

in a situation where if you lose

38:05

your job, you don't have to

38:08

leave the country because most

38:08

immigrants do. But let's say

38:12

you're a permanent residence.

38:12

And if you lose your job, and

38:15

you are an immigrant, most

38:15

likely you will do whatever it

38:18

takes to pay the bills, you can

38:18

go and clean the walkway, they

38:23

can, I don't know, take take up

38:23

the garbage or whatever, because

38:27

you know, you've been through it

38:27

and you you're willing to do

38:30

that kind of things, also, that

38:30

people born in the country

38:33

probably are not willing to do

38:33

because they are I can see for

38:36

myself, it wasn't easy, I

38:36

wouldn't do the jobs that done

38:39

when I was overseas. That's the

38:39

things that could big part of

38:42

the resilience of why resilience

38:42

is important now more than ever,

38:46

Absolutely. And, you

38:46

know, what you're describing I,

38:49

you know, I could sum up in you

38:49

know, adapting quickly, right?

38:53

So the ability to adapt quickly

38:53

is a big component of

38:58

resilience. And you know,

38:58

whether it's in the examples you

39:01

gave, you know, somebody losing

39:01

their job and needing to take up

39:05

another job to be able to

39:05

survive, or whether it's what

39:10

we've all been through this year

39:10

and 2020 we've all had to manage

39:14

uncertainty whether it's

39:14

something related to a big loss

39:19

could be a you know, a friend or

39:19

family member being sick could

39:23

be just the uncertainty of

39:23

waiting for a covid test result

39:27

could be the uncertainty of your

39:27

your job. But you know, ask

39:31

yourself how did I manage that

39:31

uncertainty? What did I do? What

39:36

did I do to get through it? And

39:36

then how can you apply those

39:39

same principles or ideas to

39:39

something like being an expat

39:44

for example,

39:46

I like how you

39:46

sum up with with much better

39:49

we're like, are you react to the

39:49

situation quickly? That makes

39:53

more sensitive water probably

39:53

the my longer description, but I

39:56

like it. Um, can you tell me a

39:56

little bit more about Cultural

40:00

Mixology, and what you do to

40:00

people moving to a new country?

40:04

What kind of work you do with

40:04

them?

40:07

Yeah, well, you know,

40:07

just in a, you know, in a couple

40:10

of sentences, what I do through

40:10

Cultural Mixology is basically

40:14

help people cultivate all of

40:14

these skills. So training

40:19

sessions, so if people are

40:19

moving to another country doing

40:22

a no one day training, living

40:22

and working, and Canada or New

40:27

Zealand, or Brazil, whatever it

40:27

may be, and then coaching

40:32

programs, which really is about

40:32

the behavior change, you know,

40:35

that we've been talking about

40:35

today. So the training raises

40:39

your awareness, before you head

40:39

out overseas, certainly there

40:43

are things that you'd like to

40:43

know about what you're about to

40:46

encounter, and then, you know,

40:46

add more knowledge. But coaching

40:51

is really how do I develop those

40:51

skills. So maybe if I'm moving

40:55

to Japan, I, I learned in a

40:55

training that the communication

40:59

or feedback style is more

40:59

indirect. And that's great to

41:03

know. But how do I do that? And

41:03

that's a longer term behavioral

41:08

change. So when I work with

41:08

people through coaching, it's

41:11

really, you know, what skills do

41:11

I need to be successful in this

41:15

country in this new job in this

41:15

new situation, and how over a

41:20

period of usually three or six

41:20

months, and I really cultivate

41:25

those as part of my identity. So

41:25

you know, if anybody is

41:30

interested in learning more,

41:30

it's cultural mixology calm as

41:34

the website and you can also

41:34

find it on Instagram at

41:40

cultural.mixology.

41:41

Perfect, I will

41:41

put everything, all the links,

41:43

and then in the show notes. One

41:43

last question. In your

41:46

experience, talking and coaching

41:46

experts, what do you think is

41:50

the biggest challenge that you have to face?

41:54

That's a great question.

41:54

Probably themselves. You know,

42:03

it's really about your own your

42:03

own attitude, the the meanings

42:08

you attach to the thoughts that

42:08

go through your, your mind,

42:12

right. So, you know, when you

42:12

think about moving to another

42:17

country, and all you have all

42:17

these, these ideas about it,

42:22

it's really, how do you

42:22

internalize those, you know,

42:25

what's the story that you tell

42:25

yourself about the change that

42:29

you're about to embark on? I

42:29

mean, of course, there are lots

42:33

of challenges, I mean, language

42:33

and, and housing, and schooling

42:39

and all of those things on the

42:39

surface. But all of those can be

42:45

all of those can be managed, in

42:45

more practical ways. It's really

42:48

the internal thing. That I think

42:48

is the challenge, really, for

42:52

all of us, whether we're moving

42:52

or not, but particularly when

42:55

we're moving because that really

42:55

does challenge your sense of

42:59

self and push you to to grow,

43:03

It goes back to be more resilient.

43:05

Exactly.

43:07

Awesome. Thank

43:07

you very much, Jamie for taking

43:10

the time to to talk about more

43:10

about resilient, which is I

43:13

think it's a it's a great topic.

43:13

I think it's it's very important

43:17

for people that are planning to

43:17

move abroad or for people that

43:19

are already abroad and they are

43:19

overcoming, and they're going

43:22

through all these normal

43:22

obstacles that everybody go

43:24

through when they're moving

43:24

abroad. So thank you so much for

43:27

sharing your knowledge.

43:28

It's been my pleasure,

43:28

Daniel, thank you so much for

43:31

having me here today.

43:33

It was my

43:33

pleasure. Awesome. Thank you so

43:35

much.

43:35

Take care. Ciao!

43:36

Ciao. Thank you

43:36

so much for tuning in this week.

43:40

You can subscribe wherever you

43:40

listen to your podcast. You can

43:43

find the show notes with

43:43

everything we discussed in this

43:45

episode at

43:45

emigrantslife.com/episode24. If

43:50

you'd like to support the show,

43:50

you can share this episode and

43:53

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43:53

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43:56

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43:56

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43:59

emigrantslife.com/yourstory.

43:59

Thanks again for listening. Talk

44:04

to you in the next one. Ciao!