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last. Icy Hot. Hello

1:43

and welcome to Empire with me, Anita

1:45

Arnon. And me, William

1:47

Drumpel. So excited today, so

1:49

excited today, so excited today. You know I

1:51

love me some girl power on this here

1:53

podcast. You know I do. We

1:57

have seen some evidence of that over the last year.

2:00

not hide it well. Okay. We have

2:02

an extraordinary woman on this podcast today

2:04

who I am so delighted has agreed,

2:06

deigned to be on our little podcast.

2:09

Iona Craig, award-winning investigative journalist, who is

2:11

with us to discuss the who sees

2:13

but that's not enough. We need to

2:15

know more about Iona Craig. So just

2:18

so you know, she

2:20

has been the Yemeni correspondent for

2:22

The Times. She was the

2:24

recipient of the Martha Gellhorn Prize for reporting

2:26

on, do you remember the US

2:28

drone strikes in Yemen, included the bombing of a

2:31

wedding convoy. What a great woman Martha Gellhorn was,

2:33

what a lovely prize to win. Well, I

2:35

mean, you know, from hand to extraordinary hand,

2:38

she survived an assassination

2:40

attempt in 2013, which

2:43

we'll talk about a bit more, which was

2:45

just outside Sana'a. Not many people could

2:47

say that. No, no. And

2:49

was the last accredited Western journalist living

2:52

in Yemen when she left in 2014,

2:54

but not forever, because just when the

2:56

little chat while you're internet was having

2:58

a hiccup, we were chatting, how many

3:00

has you been back to Yemen since

3:03

2014? I've actually lost count, to be

3:05

honest with you, but I've probably spent

3:07

at least equivalent to another

3:09

year and a half in Yemen

3:11

since having not actually lived there.

3:14

Which we should say is not an easy thing to do

3:16

at the moment. No, although I

3:18

did get stuck there on a couple of occasions, I

3:20

got stuck there during COVID when the airports were shut

3:22

down. In 2015, when

3:24

I first went back, I had to

3:26

go back by boat and I did

3:28

the crossing between the Babyl Mendab into

3:30

Southern Yemen three times by boat because

3:33

of the control of the airspace, being

3:35

in the hands of Saudi Arabia and then

3:37

preventing journalists from getting in. So yeah, you have to

3:39

be pretty determined to get back. But once I

3:41

did, I had a bit of

3:43

a reputation for turning up at friends

3:45

houses, Yemeni friends houses saying, I'll be

3:47

here for two or three days or

3:50

a week and still being there a month or

3:52

two months later. And that happened repeatedly in

3:54

2015. Can

3:57

I ask you this in many people's minds when they

4:00

think of Yemen, what is conjured

4:02

up is this sort of dust

4:04

bowl, almost a landscape from a

4:06

Star Wars movie, which is rubble,

4:09

dust, sand, yellowness, poverty, starvation,

4:12

going back almost, you know, sort of, I

4:14

don't know, a thousand years. And there's

4:16

extraordinary primeval tower houses on the

4:18

top of rocks, reaching

4:21

out with those wonderful designs. What

4:24

is Yemen to you? And what does the

4:26

world need to understand about Yemen? Oh,

4:28

I get very nostalgic when I think of Yemen, and

4:30

whenever I'm here, I want to be there. But

4:33

yes, in the most densely populated parts of the

4:35

country, in the highlands, in the west of the

4:37

country, it couldn't be further removed from that sort

4:39

of image. You've got

4:41

the tower houses that you mentioned, William,

4:43

on the top of mountains, I lived in one

4:46

of those tower houses for four years in the

4:48

middle of the old city of Sana'a, which

4:50

was five stories high, I had this

4:53

amazing view to the edges

4:55

of Sana'a up into the mountains. But actually,

4:57

the highlands of Yemen, the western part of

4:59

Yemen, which is the most densely populated

5:01

area, is beautiful and green when the rains

5:03

come sort of two or three times a

5:05

year. And there's terracing sort of, as you'd

5:08

imagine, maybe around the Mediterranean or

5:10

something like that, terraced farming, it's

5:12

very green, there are no permanent rivers, but

5:14

you do with this heavy rainfall, then get

5:16

rivers forming in the rainy season.

5:19

And the east of the country desert,

5:21

and it's less densely populated. So

5:23

you have this huge contrast when

5:25

you can drive from the west

5:28

to the east through the kind

5:30

of mountainous areas and highland mountains. I mean,

5:32

Sana'a is one of the highest capital cities

5:34

in the world. So you actually have an

5:36

almost perfect climate there where it never really

5:38

gets above 30 degrees, it can freeze

5:40

at night in the winter, but rarely normally during

5:42

the day, it doesn't really get below 16 degrees

5:45

in the winter. So you've got this sort of

5:47

lovely climate up in the mountains there. And it's

5:50

extremely beautiful. Yeah. And so in

5:52

those old powerhouses, you have the

5:54

traditional architecture, which are these beautiful

5:57

half moon windows, which are stained glass. And

5:59

so So you wake up in your ancient

6:01

powerhouse in the morning with white

6:03

walls, with geometric patterns on them,

6:05

with this filtering of light from

6:07

the stained glass coming through your

6:10

window and it is

6:12

very idyllic in that respect. And

6:14

I had a mafrage on the top floor,

6:17

which is like a sitting room, a

6:19

traditional sitting room where I could just

6:21

see for miles and you'd sit there

6:23

and have your gat juice, gat being

6:25

the kind of alternative to really

6:27

to alcohol in Yemen, which is not

6:29

consumed, but this is the kind of

6:31

local drug really, it's a plant, it's

6:33

a bit like drinking too many expressos

6:35

or red bull, it gives you that kind of vibe.

6:38

But it's very much a social thing in

6:40

northern Yemen in particular. And

6:42

that's where you gather in an afternoon to

6:44

sit and chew gat. Chills you out rather

6:46

than revs you up though, doesn't it? It's

6:49

sort of... Not for me

6:51

actually. You go for a

6:53

cycle, so for me it actually made me

6:55

really anxious. So for me, because I'm very

6:57

caffeine sensitive, it actually made me quite jittery

7:00

and if you, depending a bit like wine,

7:02

depending on where you get your gat from,

7:04

it can sometimes literally stop me from

7:06

sleeping for two nights. Really? But

7:08

yeah, in a gat chew, you do go for a cycle. So

7:10

you don't want to turn up to a gat chew late because

7:13

everybody will be at a different part in the

7:15

cycle to where you're at, it's a bit like

7:17

drinking. Are you saying gat chew as in chewing?

7:20

That's the thing called a gat chew, yeah. You chew

7:23

the herb and it has this effect.

7:25

You don't smoke it or inhale it

7:27

or snort it, you chew it. It's

7:29

not a particularly present experience, I have to say.

7:31

It's like taking the leaves off a plant, sticking

7:34

in your mouth. You don't swallow

7:36

them, you chew them and you get this great

7:38

big sort of bulging cheek. That's that barn, like

7:40

beetle leaf in India. I spent

7:43

a little time in the

7:45

Yemeni community in South Shields

7:47

in Tainanweir near Newcastle. They

7:51

are the oldest, along with the Yemeni community

7:53

of Cardiff, they're the oldest Muslim community in

7:55

the country. In

7:57

order to spend time with them, I had

7:59

to go and chew. the got to physicists

8:01

spur in that in their little mosque when

8:03

she's. On a legal by the way in

8:05

the Uk Now it's our legal to to

8:07

gotten the Uk. Suspend tragic It.

8:10

Is completely illegal. We are no thank

8:12

you Know where are we the testing

8:14

and anyone should be doing this? Okay

8:16

so let's just as as move along.

8:19

Nothing to see here. This is. A

8:21

long time ago as insists that they're long

8:23

time ago. And he won't do it

8:25

again because of be in trouble. Insist on

8:27

the other news that a perhaps misconception about

8:29

Yemen Hammond out there is this idea. That's

8:31

because when we hear about Yemen in the

8:33

news and will be half of last fifteen

8:35

twenty years it's been in relation to either

8:37

in a attacks from the Sky. Or.

8:40

More lastly the he sees in

8:42

the sea but also salvation and

8:44

terrible farm and this was an

8:46

anyone is and to our ultimate and

8:48

parsers will notice was once one

8:51

of the richest places in the

8:53

world. It was a great coffee exporter

8:55

you know the city of Marcus

8:57

was built on the on the

8:59

fortunes. Of coffee one I think what

9:01

of of all time most wonderful episodes

9:03

of that coffee episode where we had

9:06

Jamal tougher dog giving us has a

9:08

history of coffee and we episode about

9:10

Martha and seventy go towards spotting that

9:12

goats for ski grad after the to

9:15

coffee big. That I'm into. The

9:17

people of Yemen claim that as as

9:19

heritage to they think of themselves as

9:21

out from that. many of the people

9:23

in that terrible waste separate mean if

9:25

you have a characterization of of people

9:27

how would you describe them? That's a

9:29

really hard in Yemen because Yemen as

9:32

we now call it was only one

9:34

states from Nineteen Ninety. So really

9:36

actually culturally inside Yemen.

9:39

And many people found the not

9:41

see themselves. As culturally a

9:43

line to people from the north. And

9:45

even thought of the national dish of the

9:47

know some people in the south and never

9:49

return it. So yes I think it's kind

9:51

of trying to say is one monolithic lot

9:53

that that Yeah I mean if you go

9:55

back to of the the time to the

9:57

incense trial gold, frankincense and myrrh. So

10:00

at least one of the three wise men is

10:02

claimed to come from Yemen. And

10:05

the frankincense of myrrh certainly would

10:07

have come probably from Yemen because

10:09

that's what it became so famous for and

10:11

traded on. You know, in

10:14

modern times, though, unfortunately, Yemen then

10:16

became sort of famous for being

10:18

the poorest country in the Middle

10:20

East because it didn't have the

10:22

oil of its neighbors. And that's

10:24

really where I suppose it's kind

10:26

of over time has really

10:29

been depleted from this very sort of

10:31

famous country in terms of

10:34

trade routes and trading. Aidan was one

10:36

of the richest ports in the

10:38

whole of the history of British imperialism and trade.

10:41

East India Company used Aidan

10:43

as a major base. Yeah, I

10:45

mean, that's why they took Aidan

10:47

really as a British protectorate was

10:49

because of where it was conveniently

10:52

located. Halfway between Bombay and Suez.

10:54

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I

10:56

think in terms of identifying with

10:58

that heritage, unfortunately, in some respects,

11:00

it's become a little bit politicized

11:02

through the conflict because of

11:05

this in some circles,

11:07

this kind of debate over who

11:09

has the right to rule in

11:11

the terms of genealogy and an

11:14

ancient family history in Yemen. And some

11:16

people are trying to kind of claim

11:18

that history all the way back to

11:20

the kind of, you know, 3000

11:22

years ago of a family

11:24

lineage, i.e. way beyond the

11:26

sort of Prophet Muhammad kind of lineage.

11:28

And so it becomes a bit politicized

11:30

in that respect. Now we hear about

11:32

Yemen and the Houthis now an awful

11:34

lot and the Red Sea. And we

11:37

should first of all just describe why

11:39

this stretch of sea is

11:41

so very, very important. This

11:44

is a stretch of water that divides

11:46

Africa and Asia. It is the most important

11:48

shortcut for all trade in the world

11:50

for ships to reach the Mediterranean without

11:53

having to go around the Horn of

11:55

Africa, which is a dangerous and long

11:57

voyage to take. Stretching

11:59

from the gate of tiers in the

12:01

south between Eritrea and Yemen up to

12:03

Israel and Egypt, the Suez Canal. And

12:06

since November 2023, the Houthis in Yemen

12:08

have attacked cargo ships in the area.

12:10

They've launched missiles and they've used armed

12:13

drones to strike at shipping as well

12:15

in the area. This is going

12:17

to be unusual because normally we start at the

12:19

beginning and we come through to the modern era,

12:21

but can we just deal with what people will

12:23

find familiar and then find the roots of what

12:25

goes on? Who are the Houthis and

12:27

where did they come from and have they always been

12:30

there? The Houthis, as we now know

12:32

them, really grew out of

12:34

an organization or a movement

12:36

called the Believing Youth in

12:39

northern Yemen, which was a Zaydi

12:41

revivalist movement. Who are the Zaydis?

12:44

Exactly. Well, the Zaydis are a

12:46

sheer Islamic group that is really kind

12:48

of almost unique to Yemen. And in fact,

12:51

religiously, they have more in common with

12:53

Sunnis in Yemen than they do with

12:55

the 12ish years of Iran. But yeah,

12:58

Zaydis are pretty much unique to Yemen,

13:00

Shia branch of Islam. And the Believing

13:02

Youth group was a Zaydi revivalist religious

13:05

group that was formed in the 1990s and

13:08

really in a response to the

13:11

spread of Saudi, Salafism

13:14

into Yemen that began in the late 1970s,

13:16

early 1980s. So

13:19

we had last week, Kim Gutter's

13:22

telling us about the rivalry between

13:24

Iran and Saudi Arabia and how

13:26

after 1979, both of these Islamic

13:28

countries were pushing their different brands

13:31

of Islam around the world. How

13:33

far is it true? Because in every news

13:36

report, they often just say, Iran backed Houthis.

13:39

Is that a description that you recognize?

13:41

They are certainly now backed by Iran. They

13:43

wouldn't be where they are today, if it

13:46

wasn't for Iran, but it also became

13:48

slightly self-fulfilling. So one

13:50

of the reasons Saudi Arabia intervened in Yemen

13:52

back in 2015, they said, was

13:55

because of the Iranian support

13:57

for the Houthis. At that point, it was

13:59

minimal. It was political, maybe some small

14:01

arms, but really as a result, ironically,

14:03

of the Saudis getting involved in Yemen

14:06

since 2015. The Iranians

14:08

actually did become involved. Exactly.

14:11

So then you had training and

14:13

weapons provided to the Houthis and

14:15

not just small arms. You've got

14:17

now all of these anti-ship ballistic

14:19

missiles, anti-ship cruise missiles that you've

14:21

been seeing fired at vessels in

14:23

the Red Sea have all come

14:25

from Iran. And these are

14:27

Iranian armaments. Yes.

14:29

I mean, what happens to a lot of them is they get

14:31

shipped in in part and then the

14:34

Houthis have been trained by the Iranian

14:36

Revolutionary Guard Corps to rebuild them and

14:38

put them back together again once they've

14:40

been smuggled in in different parts. And

14:42

what is the attitude to the Houthis, you know,

14:45

from the general public, you know, sort of mates

14:47

of yours who you would go and sleep on

14:49

their floor for a couple of

14:51

days, stroke four months? I mean, what do

14:53

they make of this presence and

14:55

the armaments that are building up

14:57

in their country? Well, actually, that's changed a

14:59

lot because of what happened since October 7. So

15:02

the Houthis, since they took the capital

15:05

from Iran in 2014, they've kind of

15:07

always ruled with an iron fist and

15:10

there is zero tolerance for

15:12

any opposition for whether that be

15:14

in the form of criticism from

15:16

journalists or civil society or political

15:18

activists. And, you know,

15:20

in before the war, they infiltrated

15:22

the education system, the religious teachings

15:24

and absolutely everything. But since October

15:27

7, their reason for attacking

15:29

ships in the Red Sea has been

15:31

to support the

15:34

Palestinian cause, to challenge

15:36

Israel and their war on Gaza

15:38

and to disrupt shipments initially to

15:40

Israel. Should we interpret that as

15:42

orders given to them by Iran

15:44

or is it a genuine popular

15:46

Arab move against

15:48

Israel? It's genuine and popular. I mean,

15:51

the Palestinian cause was always heavily supported

15:53

in Yemen and had been historically for a

15:55

long, long time. And it has also been

15:57

part of the kind of H like.

16:00

And their even their slogan, which

16:02

they adopted way back in 2003,

16:05

is this very anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, even

16:07

anti-Israel, anti-American slogan, which is death

16:09

to America, death to Israel, damn

16:12

the Jews, victory to Islam. And

16:14

that was adopted by the Houthis

16:16

in 2003 really is a reaction

16:19

to the American invasion of Iraq. But

16:22

yeah, just going back to the popularity

16:24

of the Houthis really now, this has

16:26

been massively popular for them. And that's

16:28

even in the anti-Houthi side of the

16:30

civil war in Yemen. I've now,

16:32

you know, most of the friends I speak to

16:34

in in Southern Yemen, which is not under Houthi

16:36

control, are supporting what the Houthis

16:38

are doing, despite them being against everything

16:41

else the Houthis have done over the

16:43

last 10 years, because they're seen as

16:45

the only actors in the whole region,

16:47

arguably the world, of doing anything

16:49

to support the Palestinians or to

16:52

stand up to Israel's war in Gaza.

16:54

Well, we've already talked about, you know, a divide

16:56

between Houthi control and not Houthi controlled Yemen. Can

16:59

we go back to 1990 though, when

17:01

Yemen became what we would recognise as

17:03

a modern state? So this is under

17:05

Ali Abdullah Saleh, first president of modern

17:07

Yemen. Tell me a little more about

17:09

him. I've seen pictures of him. He

17:11

looks, I mean, he looks like an

17:13

accountant, sort of dark mustache, you know,

17:15

sort of steel rimmed glasses. He looks

17:17

like a bureaucrat. Who was he? What's

17:19

his origin story? And not Fernando from

17:22

accounts, your old friend from not

17:24

Fernando from accounts. Yeah. There's a long

17:26

running gag on this where I comment

17:28

on the hotness. Well,

17:30

I don't, but people think I do. People

17:32

say I can't comment on the hotness of

17:34

seven historical figures. But anyway, yes, tell us

17:36

about Ali Abdullah Saleh. Well, he's a lot

17:39

more intimidating and scary than any accountant that

17:41

I've ever met. I did meet Saleh. I

17:43

interviewed him. I was the first one to

17:45

interview him after he stepped down from power

17:47

after 33 years in power, sort

17:49

of more than 10 years ago now. We should

17:51

describe him thick, dark mustache,

17:53

frowning eyebrows, often seen wearing

17:55

tinted glasses. Yes,

17:58

not, not terribly tall, a

18:00

massive presence. He wore those tinted glasses

18:02

a lot later on because he suffered

18:04

a huge amount of physical damage.

18:07

He was nearly, very nearly killed during

18:09

the Arab Spring uprising in 2011 when

18:12

the mosque he was attending for Friday prayers

18:14

was bombed. And it's a

18:17

miracle that he survived that, but it did a

18:19

lot of damage to him physically. A very badly

18:21

burnt. A very badly burnt. I

18:23

mean, when I went to infium, his age showed

18:25

me a picture of him, of what he looked

18:28

like immediately after the bombing. And he had a

18:30

gash the whole way across his left lung. I

18:32

mean, he looked like he was dead.

18:35

And I remember when he did eventually die in

18:37

2017, and I saw pictures of

18:39

him dead. I said, I've seen

18:41

Salih looking more dead than he is now.

18:43

I'm not sure that he is actually, because,

18:46

you know, ironically, the Saudis shipped him off

18:48

to Saudi Arabia and spent many months literally

18:50

putting it back together again. But yeah, he

18:52

had a lot of damage, damage to his

18:55

hearing, to his face and everything else. But

18:57

yeah, he was a massive presence in Yemen

18:59

for 33 years. Nobody thought he would last

19:01

more than a year in the job when

19:04

he got the presidency, because his

19:06

two predecessors have been assassinated, although

19:08

Salih certainly supported one

19:10

of those assassinations, if not being directly

19:12

involved in it. But he went on

19:15

to rule Yemen through this kind of

19:17

system of patronage networks of playing tribes

19:19

and groups off against each other. He

19:22

was a very Machiavellian character. I just

19:24

want to go back, he does something

19:26

in 1990, which is, you know, the

19:28

unification, as you say, with patronage and

19:30

everything, but he creates an entity that

19:32

he calls Yemen. So if you're

19:35

trying to unify, you're going to have

19:37

to bring together, you know, Salih's north

19:40

and also the Marxist-Leninist

19:42

underpinned south. What does

19:44

he want for the economy? What was he

19:46

thinking of, of building this new country on?

19:49

And how do you build a country in

19:51

1990? Well, yeah, the socialist

19:53

side came from the south, really, after

19:55

the Brits had left, it became the only

19:58

sort of socialist slash communist state. in

20:00

the region and that's what Southern Yemen was until

20:02

1990. And it had

20:05

a very strong anti-imperial identity. Absolutely.

20:08

It saw itself as having thrown the

20:10

British out. Absolutely, and they

20:12

did really. There's always the joke

20:14

about it took the British too long to leave

20:16

because they announced when they were leaving and then

20:18

it took them a couple of years to pack.

20:20

And in that time, they were having a lot

20:22

of potshots taken by the locals.

20:25

But yeah, so in 1990, in no

20:27

small part because of the collapse of

20:29

the USSR, a lot of the support

20:31

that was coming for Southern

20:33

Yemen and for the socialists there

20:35

was lost. And so yeah,

20:37

it happened very quickly unification in 1990. And

20:41

it was quite an important

20:43

year that really overall politically in

20:46

Yemen because it started with unification on the 22nd of May in 1990.

20:51

Then you had a sort of political moves

20:54

being made in the north end,

20:56

you had the formation of the

20:58

Zaydi political party Al-Hak which

21:00

was founded in opposition to

21:02

the Islamist party, the

21:04

Isla party, which is kind of

21:06

Yemen's version of the Muslim Brotherhood.

21:08

That also happened in 1990. And

21:12

then they vote with Saddam

21:14

after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in

21:17

1990 and the Western world punishes them

21:19

by cutting off aid. Yeah, this was

21:21

sort of Saleh's biggest mistake

21:23

and worst move that he could have

21:25

made really. And he paid a price

21:27

for it and unlearned from it. So

21:30

yeah, during the UN Security Council resolution that happened

21:32

at the end of 1990, which was basically

21:36

given authorization for what then

21:38

was the Gulf War the next year,

21:40

which gave an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein

21:42

to withdraw from Kuwait. Ali

21:45

Abdullah Saleh Yemen was the

21:47

only country that didn't support that resolution.

21:49

Other than Cuba. Cuba is the last.

21:54

And as a result of that,

21:56

yes, the IMF, the World Bank, all

21:58

the true funding. They lost

22:00

$70 million in funding from the

22:02

US and Saleh

22:04

was isolated and

22:07

financially almost ruined, really, because

22:10

you've got to remember after unification at the beginning

22:12

of the year, they were taking on the economy

22:14

of the South, which was already in trouble because

22:16

of the collapse of the USSR. So

22:19

it was a real moment for

22:21

Saleh when, yeah, he lost a

22:23

large significant amount of their income

22:25

for the country for him to be able

22:27

to run this new country almost overnight

22:29

as a result of that. So the money's

22:32

growing up, does this not also trigger a

22:34

really autocratic streak in him? Yeah, I mean,

22:36

some might say that he was like that

22:38

already, but really what

22:40

happened also during that time was all of

22:42

the Yemenis that were working around the Gulf

22:44

in the Gulf Corporation Council, the GCC

22:46

countries, there was nearly a million of

22:48

them. They were all kicked

22:51

out of both Saudi Arabia,

22:53

the UAE, across the Gulf were kicked

22:55

out and sent back home to Yemen and

22:57

the remittances that they had been sending home

23:00

was almost like a development fund for

23:02

Yemen. It had been, you know, it was

23:04

a grassroots sort of funding

23:06

that all of these families, whether it be

23:08

in rural communities or in the cities, were

23:10

receiving income from abroad, suddenly stopped.

23:13

What happened then for Saleh really during that period

23:15

of 1990, although oil

23:17

had previously been discovered in Yemen

23:19

in 1984, it didn't

23:21

really take off until then in 1991

23:26

when it was discovered in the Mesilla Basin, which

23:28

was in old Southern Yemen, in the old

23:30

PDRY, People's Democratic Republic of

23:32

Yemen, which the socialist state was. And

23:35

that really then centralised financially

23:37

the economy in Yemen because

23:39

these remittances have been lost,

23:42

where it was going in very much at

23:44

grassroots levels across communities. The

23:47

money then was kind of coming in

23:49

centrally and that was how Saleh was

23:52

able to finance his patronage network, how

23:54

he was able to rule. I mean,

23:57

the UN estimated Saleh stole

23:59

a bezels, squirrels away, somewhere

24:01

between 32 billion

24:03

and up to 60 billion dollars

24:05

worth of money for

24:08

himself and his family and everything

24:10

else, but most of that

24:12

came through oil contracts. Now, Yemen didn't have

24:14

the amount of oil that was obviously in Saudi Arabia

24:16

or in other parts of the Gulf, but

24:18

it was enough to be able to fund

24:22

Saleh's rule really and sort

24:25

of appetite for stealing money from the

24:27

state really. It's a good place to

24:29

take a break here. So you've got

24:32

Saleh presiding over a hole of a

24:34

unified Yemen, cementing his autocratic leadership, basically

24:36

his hand in most people's pockets. Join

24:39

us after the break when the Houthis will

24:41

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26:19

Welcome back. So just before the

26:21

break, our wonderful guest star today

26:23

on today's Empire Podcast, Diana Craig,

26:25

was telling us about how Yemen

26:27

becomes a consolidated country under the,

26:30

I was going to say under the wing, but more under

26:32

the boot of this man called Saleh. Then

26:35

we have entering the fray, the Houthis.

26:37

I want to talk about Hussein Al-Husi,

26:39

who was born in Yemen in the

26:42

1950s. So he was born at a time

26:44

when the British were still in charge. They

26:47

hadn't left yet. Tell us about him. What

26:49

was he like? Where did he come from? What's his origin

26:51

story? So Hussein was

26:53

a Zaydi sort of scholar

26:55

and orator. He was very

26:57

well respected. A cleric? Yes,

27:01

he was, but he was also slightly

27:03

ambiguous in his teachings in the sense

27:05

that when he founded the Believing Youth

27:07

with others from the Zaydi

27:10

movement, there was a

27:12

lot of disagreement, really,

27:15

between his version of

27:17

Zaydiism and what

27:19

was seen as the true

27:21

root of Zaydiism. A lot of other

27:23

clerics and scholars thought what he

27:26

was teaching wasn't correct and was

27:28

a diversion from true Zaydiism. And

27:30

they were critical of him and his

27:33

writings. And they thought that he

27:35

kind of undermined sort

27:38

of Zaydi-Jewish prudence and other elements

27:40

of Zaydiism and didn't necessarily always

27:42

agree with him. And just

27:45

for clarity, if you were

27:47

an Ayatollah in Qom, what

27:49

would you think of Hussein Al-Houti's

27:51

theology and the Zaydis in general?

27:53

I mean, are they compatible with

27:55

mainstream Zaydism or would they be

27:57

regarded as basically rather a reticle?

28:00

Well, actually the Zadis have far more

28:02

in common with the Sunnis and particularly

28:04

the Shafae Sunnis of Yemen than

28:07

they do with the 12 Ashirs for sure.

28:09

I think the thing was with her saying

28:11

which she was never clear about really is

28:14

one of the aspects of Zadism is

28:17

about the

28:19

right to rule and the genealogy of

28:21

whoever is in power and in

28:24

some parts of Zadism and

28:26

this is where the division happened in northern Yemen

28:29

in particular after the Amal mate. There were those

28:31

that still believed that those

28:33

who could trace their lineage back

28:35

to the Prophet Muhammad had the birthright

28:38

to rule if you like. Whereas there

28:40

was then another school of Zadism that believed that

28:42

actually now there was a republic and everything else

28:45

that it should be done through

28:47

political parties and so now,

28:49

you know in present day in Yemen,

28:51

the Houthis very much favour

28:54

and give positions of power to

28:56

and their patronage network is set

28:58

around not just the

29:00

Hashemites and when we say Hashemites in Yemen

29:02

it's not ready to be confused with the

29:04

with the Hashemites of Jordan although they still

29:07

trace their lines back to the

29:09

great grandfather of the Prophet Muhammad and

29:12

then in Hashem. We really mean

29:15

father in Yemen when we say

29:17

Hashemites or the singular of that

29:19

which is Sayyid. So Abdul Malakal Houthi the now

29:22

leader of the Houthis is called Sayyid Abdul Malak

29:24

and that means that they can trace their lineage

29:27

directly back to the Prophet Muhammad's family and

29:29

not the Hashemites which is broader

29:31

and goes to all the cousins and is

29:34

a much broader group. The Sadah

29:36

is a direct line to the

29:38

family of the Prophet Muhammad from

29:40

his grandchildren. So the

29:42

Houthis now very much use

29:44

the Zaidi school of thoughts

29:46

that believes in that divine

29:48

right if you like to rule and

29:50

so their patronage network full

29:53

of taking over from where

29:55

Saleh left off but they favour those

29:57

who are Sayyid or

29:59

Sadah as well as Hashemites and

30:02

they are given priority, they're given wages

30:04

when others aren't, they're given positions of

30:07

power in ministries, in the military and

30:09

everything else because of that. But going

30:11

back to Hussein, he was never really

30:13

clear about what he thought on that

30:15

and never expected it clearly whether he

30:18

believed that it should continue through the

30:20

lineage of the Prophet Muhammad or go

30:22

through political means which is the route

30:24

he went down initially. He was a

30:26

parliamentarian, he was a member of parliament

30:28

in Yemen until 1997 and that was

30:30

the route that he chose but he

30:33

was never clear in his teachings and

30:35

his writings about his thoughts on that.

30:37

You know, you've talked

30:39

about family lineage, just on the political family allegiances

30:41

that he might have had or formed it. I

30:43

mean I read somewhere, I don't know whether it's

30:45

true or not, but he spent some very formative

30:48

years in Iran and according

30:50

to one disciple he was

30:52

hanging about in the orbit of

30:55

the founder Hezbollah at that time as well and

30:57

that they were sort of brothers in ideology. Does

31:00

that ring true to you or is that just

31:02

somebody wanting to back project? No,

31:04

I think what they had in

31:06

common more than the Shia Islam

31:09

really was wanting

31:12

to change the status quo in the

31:14

region and for somebody like

31:16

Hussein, it was really a feeling

31:18

of anti-American sentiment because of the

31:20

war in Iraq in 2000,

31:23

the American invasion of Iraq in

31:25

2003 which of course because Saleh

31:28

had learned from 1990 having stood

31:30

on the side of Saddam Hussein, he

31:32

realised not to do that post 9-11.

31:35

No, because the money dried up. Exactly. The

31:37

money completely dried up, yeah. He

31:39

was not just in and supported

31:42

the invasion of Iraq. He

31:44

then gave a huge amount

31:46

of support and welcome support for counterterrorism

31:48

in Yemen from the Americans and

31:51

the Houthis really since 2003 when

31:53

they took up this slogan

31:55

of anti-Americanism, that's what they

31:58

shared really with Iran. or

32:00

Hezbollah, with this wanting to change the

32:02

status quo in the region, this anti-American

32:05

sentiment that also included anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic

32:07

really. But that's what they had in

32:09

common more so than the religious aspect.

32:12

Iona, I've read somewhere that the

32:14

Houthis actually trained in Lebanon with

32:16

Hezbollah. Is that likely? Yes.

32:19

I think a particular time has gone on. What

32:22

began really with the believing youth and in

32:24

the early days of the Houthi movement were

32:26

summer camps. It's unclear really whether

32:28

that included military training that early on.

32:30

Certainly there was political

32:33

connections and movement

32:36

of Houthis and Zaidis

32:38

going from further both to

32:40

Iran and to Lebanon long

32:43

before the civil war that

32:46

we're now experiencing in Yemen since

32:48

2014. But

32:50

it became an increasingly

32:52

militarised movement really particularly

32:55

once 2004 happened, which

32:57

was the first of the

32:59

wars between the Houthis and

33:02

the government of Ali Abdullah

33:04

Saleh. And Hussein al-Huthi was killed at

33:06

the beginning of that first war in 2004. Let's

33:10

not throw that away cheaply because he

33:12

is properly getting up Saleh's nose, isn't

33:14

he? Because he's decrying that there's corruption,

33:16

which there is. He's saying that he's

33:18

a puppet, which arguably he is because

33:21

he knows what happened the last time when he opposed the

33:24

American rule. So how does

33:27

a bounty put on his head? Saleh

33:29

takes him very seriously in this voice

33:31

of radical pushback from him. He won't

33:34

have it. What happens then? The

33:36

security forces were wanting to arrest him. The

33:38

state security forces on the Ali Abdullah Saleh

33:41

and he was shot dead,

33:43

reportedly at a checkpoint, by

33:45

state security forces. But

33:47

most importantly, his body was then taken

33:50

by the state and was

33:52

held onto it until Ali Abdullah

33:54

Saleh was out of power, until

33:56

his successor, President Hadi, was put

33:59

in place. and Hussein's body

34:01

wasn't given back to the Houthis then until

34:03

2012. So he died in 2004, he was killed

34:05

in 2004, and

34:08

then they had this huge funeral for him in 2013,

34:11

which was, you know, given the

34:13

importance that he became in his death, the

34:15

martyr that he became in his death and

34:17

the importance to the Houthi movement, in

34:20

that time, it was a

34:22

massive gathering in Sardar, and it was

34:24

really the first time where you saw

34:26

that the Houthis had created, through this

34:28

period of six wars with the state,

34:30

really their kind of own statelet in

34:32

Sardar, because they had their own security

34:34

forces in their own uniform, protecting this

34:36

funeral in 2013. You

34:39

had a representative there from the Iranian

34:41

embassy, you had other

34:44

religious figures there from the region,

34:46

including Syria, and it

34:49

was really a moment when you suddenly

34:51

realised that the Houthis had effectively got

34:53

control and governance over

34:55

the whole of Sardar, and also governance

34:57

to either side of Sardar, where the

34:59

war and conflicts had spread to during

35:02

those six wars, that they had taken

35:04

a little bit more territory each time,

35:06

if you like. So, yeah, Hussein became

35:08

this, you know, hugely important

35:11

religious sort of figure really, to

35:13

the Houthis, and so when

35:15

he was buried in 2013, it was a massive

35:17

event, it was a huge event for the Houthis,

35:19

despite the fact that he died sort of nine

35:22

years prior to that. But then with all of

35:24

that fervour sort of kicking around in the air,

35:26

and you know, this mass

35:28

mourning, I suppose, no surprise

35:30

then at 2014, and this

35:32

is all bubbling and boiling that the Houthi coup

35:34

happens, can you speak to that a bit? Yeah,

35:37

so really, as much as Saudi Arabia at

35:39

the time probably would have liked to have

35:41

blamed Iran, the reason the Houthis were able

35:43

to do that was because

35:45

of Ali Abdullah Saleh. Having Saleh fought all

35:48

these wars with the Houthis, he was looking

35:50

to claw back power, having been kicked out

35:52

of office in 2012, and

35:54

he knew the kind of

35:56

Trojan horse for him really was

35:59

going to be... the Houthis. So he did

36:01

a deal with the Houthis and then Saleh had

36:03

maintained his loyalists within the army.

36:05

So when I was living in Sana'a in

36:07

2014 when the coup happened, it

36:10

was kind of extraordinary really because there was

36:12

some initial fighting for about four

36:14

days at a major military camp

36:16

on the outskirts of the city

36:19

that was the home of Ali Moss

36:21

and Al-Aqmar who was Saleh's greatest foe.

36:23

He'd led the wars for Saleh against

36:26

the Houthis but he was also the

36:28

most powerful man in the military and

36:30

Saleh had long hated him. He defected

36:32

during 2011 during the Arab Spring

36:34

and his guide in the military had turned on

36:36

Saleh's forces. So

36:39

Saleh had a long grudge against Ali Moss

36:41

and so the fighting started around his camp

36:43

but when it came to taking the Ministry

36:45

of Defence, the Parliament, I was living right

36:47

by the Parliament at that time and I

36:49

remember walking out the door the day the

36:51

Houthis took control and not a single shot

36:53

was fired. The security forces

36:55

standing outside the Parliament welcomed the Houthis walking up

36:58

to them and literally shook their hands and they

37:00

came and joined them. And just parted ways and

37:02

opened the gates. Wow. Yeah and the same thing

37:04

happened at the Ministry of Defence. I then literally

37:07

walked down the road, I was going to meet

37:09

a photographer friend of mine and somebody messaged me

37:11

and said they'd taken the Ministry of Defence and

37:13

I said I'm a hundred metres from the Ministry

37:15

of Defence. There's not a shot being fired and

37:18

the same thing happened and

37:20

at that time the

37:22

Houthis had been riding

37:24

on really a wave of opportunism

37:26

as they've repeatedly done now but

37:29

there have been massive issues again over

37:31

corruption with the new President Hadi, there

37:34

had been a reduction in the subsidy

37:36

on fuel so people have gone and

37:38

protested because the cost of fuel had

37:41

risen substantially and so the Houthis

37:43

took this as an opportunity, they saw it as

37:45

a new revolution and they took

37:47

control of the capital in September 2014 when

37:50

the entire international community and the UN

37:52

Special Envoy were sitting in

37:55

the presidential palace waiting to sign a deal

37:57

with the Houthis to say that we will

37:59

join the UN. a unity government. And whilst they

38:01

were locked up in the palace, had their phones

38:03

taken off them so they couldn't communicate with the

38:05

rest of the world, but for security reasons, the

38:08

Hooties were sweeping through the city and taking control

38:10

of all of the ministries. And it was quite

38:12

an extraordinary thing to watch because it

38:14

was a coup that even the international community was

38:16

denying was a coup at the time. I mean,

38:19

I just can I just say, I mean, I'm

38:21

just slightly astonished by the fact that you're strolling

38:23

around while the coup is happening. I mean, what

38:25

was it like to be a woman? You know,

38:28

you're a slight Western woman, and you're

38:30

sort of muddling along the Hooties have come in,

38:33

then, you know, there's a huge seismic change in

38:35

government. How did you operate in Yemen? I mean,

38:37

did you have to be vabled? Did you have

38:39

to be covered? Because I mentioned at the top

38:41

of this programme, 2013 was when there was an

38:43

assassination attempt on you. So what, what's

38:47

gone on here, Iona? Well, certainly when I

38:49

first turned up in Yemen in 2010, and

38:51

all the way through probably 2013,

38:53

really, I never covered my head, I had

38:55

shorter hair than I even do now then.

38:57

And I was often mistaken as a man,

39:00

because I would always wear sort of long sleeve

39:02

clothes and a top that covered my bum and went

39:05

down to my knees, sort of like a dress with

39:07

trousers on underneath. And I did often get mistaken for

39:09

a boy a lot of the time I used to

39:11

have arguments going on in Arabic in the public bus

39:13

behind me about is she a girl, is she a

39:15

boy? But really, then, certainly

39:18

foreign women could move about freely without

39:20

having to be covered. That then changed

39:22

during the period after the Arab Spring

39:25

before the revolution happened when there was

39:27

what they call the National Dialogue Conference, which was

39:29

a transitional phase in Yemen. Are we talking about 2012?

39:32

What year are we

39:34

talking about when things changed? 12 and

39:36

then 13, really, because during

39:39

this kind of period when you knew there was

39:41

going to be a war, everybody who spent time

39:43

in Yemen knew there was a war coming. And

39:46

Ali Abdullah Saleh was probably likely behind it. You

39:48

had a string of assassinations,

39:50

political assassinations going on. Car

39:53

bombs. Yes, drive by

39:55

shootings. Car bombs were normally the

39:57

kind of al-Qaeda thing, suicide bombings. But But

40:00

you then that that Al-Qaeda

40:02

would often claim you'd have car

40:04

bombs, suicide bombings, drive-by shootings. You

40:07

had regular kidnapping than a foreign

40:09

national. So I had six friends kidnapped in

40:11

that period. And that was

40:13

actually when I started wearing a buyer and

40:15

a hijab just obviously I looked

40:17

like a white foreigner. But if somebody is

40:20

driving past, then I'm not an immediate sort

40:22

of target. But yeah, I had several

40:24

friends kidnapped during that period. And

40:27

returned or what happened to them when they were kidnapped? I'm

40:29

going to come to your story because I don't want you

40:31

skipping over that. But what happened to your friends once they

40:33

were kidnapped? Who had taken them? What did

40:35

they want? Well, this was the thing. A

40:37

lot of them were taken by tribesmen that sold

40:39

on to Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was

40:42

then in a kind of financial need and

40:44

realized it was profitable business to be getting

40:46

into the kidnapping business if you

40:48

like. And all of them

40:50

were released by one who was an

40:53

American-British national, Luke Summers, who was

40:55

a journalist, also a photojournalist. And

40:58

he was killed in a failed rescue

41:00

attempt by the Navy SEALs, along

41:04

with a South African who was

41:06

also being held with him. So

41:08

yeah, all of them were released

41:10

except for him. Unfortunately,

41:12

at the end of 2014, he

41:14

was killed in a failed rescue attempt. But

41:17

yeah, for 2013, there were a lot of

41:19

political assassinations going on. A lot of them

41:21

happened to be the Houthis

41:23

who were the

41:26

more moderate Houthis, the political-minded Houthis,

41:28

the ones who maybe a year down

41:30

the road wouldn't necessarily have supported a

41:32

takeover of Sana'a and this kind of

41:34

soft coup, if you like, that would

41:36

have been against that. And

41:38

many of them were killed in shootings

41:41

during 2013 and in the run-up for

41:43

the period when

41:45

the Houthis started taking territory. So a lot

41:47

of the moderates amongst the Houthis were removed

41:50

from the picture entirely purely by being killed. What happened

41:52

to you? I mean, can you bear to talk about

41:54

that today? I just want to know, can you... I

41:56

mean, don't, if it's awful... Oh, no, it's awful. So

42:01

what happened? It's

42:03

morning time you get into a taxi. I mean, just

42:05

talk us through what happened. So

42:07

I just interviewed Ali Abdullah Saleh two

42:10

days before and I hadn't filed my

42:12

story for the piece of the Times

42:14

yet because Saleh was going out to

42:16

do his first political rally to his

42:18

supporters since he'd been removed

42:20

from office in 2011. So he hadn't

42:22

done a public speaking or

42:24

rally or anything like that since the

42:26

Arab Spring. So I thought that

42:28

was good context for the story. So I went to

42:30

the political rally, he did his speech and

42:33

I left. And when I left, of course, there

42:35

were a huge amount of people leaving. I flagged

42:38

down a cab, got in the taxi and

42:40

as we were driving through this sunken road

42:42

that kind of goes round the outside of

42:45

Sana's old city, you know, a couple of

42:47

miles from where I was living at the

42:49

time, we went past the Ministry of Defence.

42:52

And as we did so, a vehicle came out

42:55

of the ramp outside the Ministry of

42:57

Defence and blocked the road

42:59

in front of us. How terrifying. And then

43:01

as it blocked our route, somebody

43:04

from over my right shoulder, I was sitting

43:06

on the backseat, opened fire through

43:08

the window. And obviously, you know,

43:11

glass went plying and bullets

43:13

went out at the other side. Thankfully, the

43:15

taxi driver who didn't know me from Adam,

43:18

I threw myself in the foot well, played dead

43:20

and he turned around, thought I was okay, pulled

43:22

around this car that was blocking our road and

43:24

just took off down the road. I then

43:26

got him back to my house later in the day to

43:28

give him some cash to pay for the damage that the

43:30

bullets had done to his car. And

43:33

I then explained that I was a journalist, at which

43:35

point he sort of put his head in his hand

43:37

and said, what the hell were you doing getting in

43:39

my car? And I promised him I would never get

43:41

in his car again. And I gave him some cash

43:43

for all the broken glass. But I mean,

43:45

he felt the bullets go through the hair on

43:47

the back of his neck, you know. Oh my God.

43:49

We were both,

43:52

you know, kind of relieved and laughing at the

43:54

aspect that we were both sort of still alive

43:56

and had survived that experience. And in those days,

43:58

you'd have to get an exit visa. So I then

44:00

spent the next couple of days trying to get a visa to be able

44:03

to leave. And I did go home for a couple of weeks, but I

44:05

came back again. But there was

44:07

then a lot of it kind of

44:09

got a bit political because Saleh blamed

44:11

Isla, which is the opposition

44:13

party in Yemen, Isla blamed Saleh. Saleh's aide then

44:15

called me up the next day and said, Saleh

44:17

is worried about you. He wants to send you

44:19

guards and a driver and all this kind of

44:21

thing outside your house, at which point I knew

44:23

it was time to go because I didn't want

44:25

to get involved in any of that. So yeah,

44:27

I went I went home for a couple of

44:29

weeks and then came back again for

44:31

a couple of weeks. No stopping this woman.

44:35

By which time, you know, the political assassinations

44:37

have moved on and they were

44:39

murdering other people. I mean, I still don't know

44:41

to this day whether it was an attempt to

44:44

actually take my life or just to try and

44:46

frighten me. I had no idea. But who had

44:48

most to gain from doing either of those things?

44:51

I mean, when people say to me, do you have any

44:53

enemies? I said, well, there was a long list at that

44:55

point. The only people I know it wasn't was Al Qaeda,

44:57

because I actually contacted them and asked them and they kind

45:00

of laughed at me. Well, you're just one 800

45:02

Al Qaeda. Hello. Wow.

45:07

I mean, just just staying with you for one second. I

45:09

mean, you know, you've said this and I know you don't

45:11

like talking about it because you've just sort of like not

45:13

because it's painful, but because you just don't like talking about

45:15

yourself. But I want to talk about you a little bit.

45:17

Well, why? Why? After something like

45:20

that happened, I would not

45:22

be going back there. No

45:24

way. Absolutely. Right. I have

45:26

completely worn out my luck.

45:29

And I'm not going back. But you did.

45:31

And again, and again, and again, why? Absolute

45:34

stubbornness, pigheadedness. It's all about

45:37

bravery. I thought, A,

45:39

who am I running from? I didn't

45:41

know who was responsible. And B, if it

45:43

was an attempt to frighten me, which I thought

45:45

it probably was because in Yemen, you know, a

45:47

fascination is pretty common. And they're pretty good at

45:49

killing people. They very rarely fail. And

45:51

so I thought if this is something to attempt to

45:53

frighten me, I'm not going to be frightened by this.

45:56

Absolutely no way am I going to be frightened by

45:58

somebody doing this. So so yes, it's actually. The

46:00

of an to the a solid determination to

46:02

sort of advice get my middle finger whoever

46:04

it was who's trying to frighten me and

46:06

say i'm not, I'm not frightened So so

46:08

yeah it was complete stop a little Michael

46:10

how his are brilliant producer on this program

46:13

he we love daddy and who's had a

46:15

chat with you before you came on. Said.

46:17

Ask about the swimming. Okay

46:20

so I don't know what this is about out oldest.

46:22

For this lives is going this. Ins tell

46:24

us about swimming. Oh no,

46:26

I should mention that. Say

46:29

I was talking about. To

46:31

him about how the Yemen the I said

46:34

in love with when I leave Yemen and

46:36

twenty ten and and lived there for four

46:38

years. Of which doesn't really

46:40

exist anymore because because of the wall,

46:42

Because the division in society, Because. The.

46:45

Way both sides in the conflict little

46:47

more than two sides are now ruled

46:49

says you know that he sees now.

46:51

Have very strict rules on what women

46:54

can see than a lot of travel

46:56

without. A male guardian which was never

46:58

the case before the law firm us

47:00

in Sonora was mean the last walk

47:02

out the door with a nearby Iran

47:04

and just the kind of strict social

47:06

norms that knob and impose an equally

47:08

in in Southern Yemen, you've had the

47:11

rise of the kind of or salafi

47:13

militias that have been funded and use

47:15

militarily in the war. the you have

47:17

fun of extremism growing up on both

47:19

sides really but when I first went

47:21

to a than twenty ten this is

47:23

whether filming thing comes in. I was

47:25

able to. Put in a bikini and go to the

47:27

beach or bear on a beach where you have to pay

47:30

to go to the belong to a private hotel. It.

47:32

Wasn't like public beach but I paid my money I

47:34

went and i thought i okay for swim in a

47:36

bikini. By twenty.

47:39

Fifteen. Sixteen, Not a chance,

47:41

no way. And so and twenty twenty when

47:43

I got stuck in in a gym because

47:45

of case it in they chop the airspace

47:47

in the shuffle. the apple. Shut the roads and

47:49

everything else and I got stuck from for a. Couple

47:52

of months longer than I anticipated being in

47:54

Yemen at that point. And I'm right by

47:56

the see the spell in electricity because. The.

47:59

Infrastructure It is. that is so problematic

48:01

because of corruption and other issues. There's no

48:03

fuel to run the generators off. So

48:05

I was like, I want to go for a swim. It's 40 odd

48:07

degrees. And, you know, I couldn't

48:09

go for a swim unless I was wearing an abaya.

48:11

So I said, No, I'm not I'm not doing that.

48:13

So I got my Yemeni friend who's staying with me,

48:15

I said, right, get the scissors out. So I had

48:17

shoulder length hair at that point, he cut

48:20

all my hair off in a rather sort

48:22

of Edward Scissorhand haphazard sort of a way.

48:24

I then borrowed his brother's

48:26

football shorts, I got a bandage from

48:28

my first day kit and bound my

48:30

chest, put on a t shirt. And

48:33

off I went. And

48:36

we're going for going to the beach. And so

48:38

we did. So yes, I did my

48:40

best impersonation of a of a bloke

48:42

or a boy, or a man or

48:44

whatever. You are a

48:46

bloody minded bird. And

48:49

good, good, good. Brilliant.

48:51

I mean, nice swim, I hope at the end of

48:53

all that. It was yes. And I did it quite

48:55

regularly, actually, after that. So

48:58

we've seen the Houthis now, series

49:00

control, Iona, and things are getting

49:02

darker. There's more extremism, there's there's

49:04

violence, there's been a coup. What

49:07

happens next? And tell me about Saudi

49:10

Arabia entry into this

49:12

in 2015. Well,

49:14

what happens after the Houthis take control

49:16

of the capital in in September 2014

49:19

is they find this agreement

49:21

saying they will go no further, they'll withdraw

49:23

their troops from Sana'a and kind of go

49:25

back to father. Not only did they not

49:27

do that, but the exact reverse happened. So

49:29

they continue taking territory through the country, they

49:32

continue pushing south and east. And

49:34

then in early 2015, there was fighting in the

49:36

capital itself.

49:38

And President Hadi, who was sally

49:41

successor, was effectively put on the

49:43

house arrest, wasn't able to move,

49:45

the government was disbanded, and the

49:47

feces took power by full force

49:49

at that point. And just to remind

49:52

us, I know what percentage of the

49:54

population are Houthi or Zaydi? Well,

49:56

Zaydi is between 15 and 20%. So that's

49:58

a good question. a small

50:00

minority. Yes, but

50:02

I think, you know, a lot of people would

50:04

say now that not necessarily all Houthis are Zaidis

50:07

and vice versa, all Zaidis are Houthis. But

50:09

yeah, as 2015 then got going, you

50:13

had the collapse of the

50:15

government that the Houthis then took absolute

50:17

control. President Hadi was

50:20

under house arrest and then

50:22

somehow managed to escape

50:24

house arrest, reportedly dressed

50:26

as a woman in an abaya with a niqab on.

50:29

The reverse to you. Yeah,

50:31

exactly. And

50:33

got in a car and escaped to Aden in

50:35

the south. But the Houthis followed him and to

50:38

the point that actually they because they've taken

50:40

over the assistance of the state, they

50:42

use the Air Force for the first time

50:45

and airstrikes by the Houthis

50:47

then controlled Yemeni Air Force

50:49

were carried out in Aden

50:52

against President Hadi and his supporters, at

50:54

which point Hadi fled and

50:56

he went to Saudi Arabia. And

50:58

with that, the Saudi coalition was

51:00

formed and literally overnight in March

51:02

2015, Saudi Arabia launched

51:05

this bombing campaign in Yemen that

51:07

began in March

51:09

2015 with the idea that it would

51:11

last a couple of weeks, maybe a

51:13

month or so and was still going

51:15

on until a ceasefire in

51:17

2022. And the UAE also

51:19

became a crucial part of that coalition.

51:21

And the UAE, their primary involvement, not

51:24

only in the air wars was on the

51:26

ground as well. So they sent forces in

51:28

and also funded and

51:30

trained militias, including

51:33

Sudanese and Yemeni

51:35

Salafis and other groups in

51:38

support of the old Southern Separatist

51:40

cause. Who are the foot soldiers

51:42

in the Saudi anti-Houti forces? It

51:45

is actually regular regiments of the Saudi

51:47

army or who's fighting the warner? No,

51:50

the Saudi army isn't really

51:52

involved in foot soldiers at

51:54

all. So you've got multiple

51:56

units and groups on the anti-Houti

51:59

side. They've actually to support each

52:01

other. So the UAE has

52:03

supported one side, the Southern

52:05

Separatist, now the Southern

52:07

Transitional Council, which they helped create and

52:09

a fund against the

52:12

internationally recognised government, which

52:14

also has Islam, the political party

52:16

as part of and the

52:19

UAE is absolutely

52:21

and adamantly opposed to Islam. Because they

52:23

see them as the Muslim Brotherhood, and

52:26

this potential to be an existential threat

52:28

to the UAE, they are deeply opposed

52:30

to Islam having any power. And

52:33

so hence they supported the SDC,

52:35

the Southern Transitional Council into creation

52:37

and funded it and other fighters

52:40

who are also not pro-Islam.

52:43

So within the anti-fifty faction,

52:45

it's very fragmented. And

52:48

they have fought each other to the

52:50

point the UAE even carried out airstrikes

52:52

against some of the internationally recognised governments

52:54

backed by Saudi Arabia side. And

52:56

it's really weakened their ability therefore to

52:59

fight the Houthis because of this

53:01

internal fighting really on the anti-Houthi

53:03

side. And the Houthis have obviously

53:05

been able to take advantage of

53:07

that. I mean, you've just got

53:09

people being pounded amidst all of

53:11

this sort of crossfire going on

53:13

between different interest groups, which not

53:15

surprisingly has led to a complete

53:17

collapse in the healthcare system, famine,

53:19

people not getting food. In 2019, the Global Food

53:22

Index said that Yemen

53:24

had the second highest score for hunger

53:26

in the world. And 2022, which

53:28

then a couple of years ago, a World

53:31

Food Programme said 17 million

53:33

people in Yemen are food

53:35

insecure. What's going to happen

53:37

next to a country that I know you love

53:39

and that you would sort of long

53:42

to be back in if it could

53:44

be a little more like the place that the young

53:46

boy girl swam in, you know? I

53:48

think this is a problem that none of the protagonists, you

53:51

know, in the war, whether it

53:53

be Saudi Arabia, UAE or the Houthis

53:55

or the internationally recognised government have Yemeni

53:57

civilians of their priority at all. They

54:00

all have their own interests primary.

54:03

I mean, the starvation aspect of it

54:06

has been dire. A large part of

54:08

that has been down to the Saudi-led

54:10

coalition and the defected blockade they impose.

54:12

But also the Houthis have manipulated aid.

54:15

They've besieged cities. They're still besieging, partly

54:17

besieging the city of Tyres. They prevented

54:20

food and water getting to civilian populations.

54:22

So all parties are kind of guilty

54:24

of this, really. And I think going

54:27

forward now with the Houthis is really

54:29

a question of how far they

54:31

are willing to escalate in the Red Sea. And

54:34

therefore, the reaction this is

54:37

going to draw from the US and the

54:39

UK. So the US has now

54:42

designated the Houthis as a specially

54:45

designated group. They had been previously

54:47

designated as a foreign terrorist organization,

54:49

which is slightly different.

54:52

But being designated as a terrorist

54:54

organization now will also have an

54:56

impact on companies willing to ship

54:59

food into Hadeida, which is under Houthi

55:01

control, the main port for the most

55:03

densely populated part of Yemen, and therefore

55:05

will affect food prices. Food prices are also

55:07

affected by shipping insurance, which of course is

55:09

huge from anything going into the Red

55:11

Sea, where Hadeida port is. So

55:14

the consequences of international

55:17

reaction to what the Houthis are doing now

55:19

in the Red Sea can still,

55:21

again, have devastating consequences for

55:24

the civilians in Yemen. Well,

55:26

it's a really bleak assessment to leave things

55:28

on, but we've been so charmed and delighted

55:30

by having you here. Thank you so much,

55:32

Iona. I know you don't like talking about

55:35

yourself, but I think people will find your

55:37

own personal recollections of, you know,

55:39

not getting shot, not getting

55:41

shot in the head. Really quite mesmerizing.

55:44

Listen, we should we should also say that

55:47

it's kind of a grand crescendo to end

55:49

our Iran series. Out tragically with a

55:51

bang, quite literally. Well, yes, I know. I know.

55:54

It may not be the truest of endings, but we hope

55:56

you enjoyed this series. Do stay tuned because we've got a complete

55:59

change of. pace for our next

56:01

mini series here on Empire. You're going to have

56:03

to wait to find out what it is. Until,

56:05

well, unless William tweets it. Unless

56:09

William just blasts it onto X

56:11

or Twitter or Instagram. Anyway,

56:13

till then though, it is goodbye

56:15

from me, Anita Arnon. And

56:17

goodbye from me, William Thrunpool.