0:06

Well, hello there Empire listeners. Now,

0:08

before you get to today's episode,

0:10

William and I have a very

0:13

exciting special announcement, don't we? We

0:15

do. We do, we do. This summer,

0:18

we are returning to the stage for

0:20

a live show on Monday the 8th

0:22

of July. We will be in London

0:24

at the Barbican, no less. If you

0:27

didn't come last year, you will have missed

0:29

William Darwin for breaking every rule that the

0:31

venue had and climbing into the pulpit to

0:33

deliver his sermon from the

0:35

mat. Yes, that was fun. I like that. Did

0:38

you see the blanched faces of everybody around

0:40

the hall? I thought it was a shame

0:42

not to use a pulpit if it was there. Oh

0:45

my God, what is he doing? Honestly,

0:47

it was basically our podcast Made Flesh

0:49

where you're out of control, man, out

0:51

of control. Do come,

0:53

do please come. We have

0:55

so many things that we want to share with you. It's

0:57

going to be bigger, it's going to be better. We're not

1:00

going to spoil the surprise as to what the topics are

1:02

going to be, partly because we don't know yet. But

1:04

it's going to be history. It's going

1:06

to be history related. And it's going to be

1:08

all the history that you didn't learn in school. Yes,

1:11

with a few laughs along the way, we hope.

1:13

So look, shall I give you the details? Have

1:15

you got your pen? Have you got your pencil

1:17

ready? Have you got your paper in front of

1:19

you? Because this is when the show is the

1:21

evening of Monday, the 8th of July at the

1:23

Barbican in London. If you're a member of the

1:25

Empire Club, you can buy your ticket in the

1:27

pre-sale on Tuesday, the 9th of April. And members

1:29

of the public will be able to buy

1:32

on Thursday, the 11th of April. That's

1:35

right. And last year sold out very quickly. So

1:37

don't wait to get your tickets. Anita, how can

1:39

the listeners get hold of tickets? I'm so glad

1:41

you asked. If you are a member of the Empire

1:43

Club, we will email you with a link directly. If

1:46

you're not in the description of the

1:48

episode that goes out on Thursday, the

1:50

11th, the link to the ticket website,

1:52

it'll be there. And we will tweet

1:55

it from our official Twitter account. That's

1:57

at EmpirePodUK at 9am. it's

2:00

go live as they say in rock and roll.

2:02

Alternatively just google empire podcast live at the Barbican

2:04

and it'll appear and to make sure you don't

2:06

miss out because we don't want to miss out

2:08

on you. See you in July! Hello

2:22

and welcome to Empire with me Anita

2:24

Arnon and me William Durampault.

2:27

I always have fun on these podcasts

2:29

always always always but I've rarely had

2:31

this much fun talking about I mean

2:33

it's a woman so of course you

2:35

know that's all my box is fixed

2:37

but we are again joined by a

2:39

Peter Sarris professor of late antique medieval

2:41

and Byzantine studies at the University of

2:43

Cambridge who has just been a superstar

2:45

telling us about this amazing amazing woman,

2:47

Empress Theodora. What an incredibly racy

2:49

and thrilling and wonderful story

2:52

it is. Well do a

2:54

recap to a doodle doodle previously on

2:56

this podcast. Do a little recap.

2:58

Previously on Empire we

3:01

told the story of how Theodora

3:04

who came from the most

3:06

unpromising background imaginable trafficked as

3:08

a child into child prostitution

3:10

which seems something that even

3:12

her supporters say not just

3:15

an accusation thrown at

3:17

her by her critics who

3:20

rose up was briefly the partner

3:22

of the governor of Libya who

3:24

beats her up she has to

3:26

find her own way home she

3:28

gets back to Constantinople and by

3:31

an incredible twist manages to become

3:33

the mistress and the partner of

3:36

the rising star of Constantinople

3:38

who is the Balkan born

3:40

Justinian. He rises first

3:42

to be co-emperor with his father Justin

3:44

and then when Justin dies he comes

3:46

to power but he doesn't come to

3:48

power alone he comes

3:51

to power jointly co-ruling with

3:53

this remarkable wife. It's so

3:55

thrilling and Peter's here and Peter which I mean I'd give him

3:57

a nine out of ten so that's pretty good but I mean

3:59

just Justin was his uncle rather than his

4:01

dad. I take point off of that, wouldn't you?

4:04

He then adopts him as his son. Yeah,

4:07

but we still take my call. You see, that

4:09

was the bracy version. And

4:12

Theodore is effectively a co-ruler, not

4:14

officially a co-ruler. A falter, that's

4:16

right. But the way in which

4:18

he builds her into the system

4:20

really puts conservative nerves on edge.

4:22

So Peter, give us a picture

4:24

of the city and the empire

4:26

which these extraordinary co-rulers taking

4:29

over after sending the throne in

4:31

527 CE. So

4:34

although the Western Roman Empire has fallen, the

4:37

city of Constantinople, in no poor is

4:39

still the greatest imperial city in the

4:41

known world. Unlike most

4:43

Greco-Roman cities, it doesn't focus

4:46

on a traditional style

4:48

acropolis. Instead, the beating heart

4:50

of the city is the palace

4:52

complex, which is originally built

4:55

by Constantine. Adjacent to the palace,

4:57

you have the Hippodrome, where the

4:59

chariot races take place, but also

5:01

where a lot of imperial ceremonial

5:03

takes place, as the emperor uses

5:05

the Hippodrome to ceremonially present himself

5:07

to his people and to interact with

5:09

them politically, receiving chants from the circus

5:12

factions and sending messages back to them

5:14

by his heralds. Adjacent

5:16

to the palace, you have a great cathedral,

5:18

the Church of Holy Wisdom,

5:20

at this point a basilica-style

5:23

church, similar to those in Rome, with

5:25

four or five aisles. And adjacent to

5:27

that, you have the Senate House. So

5:29

this is the beating political heart of

5:31

the capital. You then have a series

5:33

of processional highways and roads, linking

5:36

this centre via a

5:38

series of lavishly ornamented

5:40

public squares to the

5:43

Theodosian walls, the amazing

5:45

triple-level defences, which have

5:47

been built to defend Constantinople from

5:49

the Huns. The greatest

5:51

city defences ever built anywhere. Well,

5:54

if anyone wants to revisit this, we did those in

5:56

the Ottoman series. Do you remember the breach of those...

6:01

Exactly, impregnable and filled in veg of cannon and

6:03

gunpowder. Right. And at

6:05

the heart of this, you have this

6:07

extraordinary power couple now in the palace,

6:09

Justinian and his formidable wife Theodora. And

6:12

Peter, again, just to give a picture

6:14

beyond that, the Empire includes the whole

6:16

of the modern Balkans as far as

6:19

Venice. So essentially what is

6:21

happening is, as barbarian pressure

6:23

has eased in the late

6:25

fifth century, the Empire is

6:27

starting to reestablish power beyond

6:29

the southern Balkans along the

6:31

Danube and Justinian's homeland in

6:33

southern Serbia today near the

6:36

city of Nis. That

6:38

area is going to be very heavily invested

6:40

in by Justinian as this area comes back

6:42

under direct imperial control again. So

6:45

the zone of imperial power is being restored in

6:47

the Balkans. To the east, Roman

6:49

power extends over the entirety of

6:52

modern Turkey, the Anatolian plateau, out

6:54

towards the Syrian frontier, where

6:57

essentially along the border that

6:59

now bisects Syria and Iraq,

7:01

the Roman eastern frontier faces

7:03

the great superpower arrival of

7:05

Persia. Roman power in

7:07

the east includes Syria, Palestine and

7:10

Egypt. Beyond that to the

7:12

west, the territories have fallen under barbarian

7:14

rule. And these are very rich territories.

7:16

These are the richest parts of the

7:19

Empire. Extremely rich. Absolutely.

7:21

Like Syria, which I know from

7:23

the holy mountain you visited many

7:25

years ago, luckily I saw it

7:27

as well, areas such as the

7:29

limestone massif to the north of

7:31

Aleppo, the villages in the highlands

7:33

there reach levels of prosperity in

7:35

the early sixth century, which won't

7:37

be seen again until really the

7:39

18th century or beyond. Olive oil.

7:41

Olive oil is being cultivated at

7:44

altitudes there, which they will never be cultivated

7:46

at again, in fact. So it's a period

7:48

of great political crisis, but in the

7:50

very early sixth century, great agrarian

7:52

and economic expansion across these largely

7:54

Greek speaking territories. Okay. So I

7:56

mean, we've got this wealth, we've

7:58

got this exp... and we have the

8:01

new power couple in town. Do

8:03

Justinian and Theodora come to power with

8:05

some kind of idea of what their

8:07

rule should look like? Do they have,

8:09

we'd call it political manifesto these days,

8:11

but do they have an objective that

8:13

they present to the people? Well,

8:15

Justinian certainly does. He has four

8:17

priorities which will determine much of

8:19

the course of his reign. The

8:21

empire, as we saw in the

8:23

previous episode, the western provinces of

8:25

the Roman empire had fallen out

8:27

of direct Roman rule in the

8:29

fifth century. The empire's internal religious

8:31

struggles, internal legal struggles, and also

8:34

faces renewed threats from the east

8:36

in the form of the Persians.

8:38

Now Justinian regards himself as coming

8:40

to power at a time of

8:42

imperial crisis, and he regards that

8:44

crisis as largely being the result of

8:46

the indolence of his predecessors, their

8:49

lack of Christian zeal, and

8:51

as a result of that lack of Christian

8:53

zeal, the way in which the empire has

8:55

lost divine favor. So he is determined to

8:58

address each of the aspects of

9:00

the crisis which the empire has

9:02

presented him with and to regain

9:04

divine favor. So his most

9:07

pressing priority when he comes to

9:09

the throne is to press ahead

9:11

much more aggressively than any emperor

9:13

before him with the much more

9:15

full-blown Christianization of the Roman state.

9:18

Previous Roman emperors had cracked down

9:20

on acts of pagan sacrifice. Justinian

9:22

now for the first time makes

9:24

it illegal even to be a

9:26

pagan. Those who refuse to

9:28

convert to Christianity will be

9:30

exiled. Those who make only false

9:33

conversions, he declares are to be

9:35

executed. Peter, give us an idea

9:37

of what sort of pagan centers there still

9:39

are in the empire. I mean, if you

9:41

go to Athens or Baalbek, are

9:43

the operating pagan temples still in

9:45

their magnificence? There is

9:47

clearly still a very lavish pagan

9:50

temple in operation in Baalbek, in

9:52

what's now Lebanon. In

9:54

places like Athens, you have

9:56

very lively networks of pagan

9:58

intellectuals and philosophers. look

10:00

down on the Christians as far

10:02

less fully civilised. Yes,

10:04

indeed. Whilst there is from the

10:06

4th century onwards a growing fusion,

10:09

as it were, and synergy between

10:11

Greek thought and Christian faith, there

10:14

will always be those of the

10:16

traditional philosophical and literary training who

10:18

will always regard Christianity and intellectual

10:20

Hellenism as ultimately incompatible. And particularly

10:23

would regard the monks as we

10:25

might regard Hezbollah or Hamas as

10:27

sort of black robe fanatics. Yes,

10:30

and likewise there will always be

10:32

black robe fanatics amongst the monks

10:34

who will regard any body of

10:36

classical learning being essentially

10:38

a crypto-pagan. So there is a

10:41

cultural war going on in Constantinople

10:43

in the 6th century. And Justinian,

10:45

though he doesn't go along with

10:48

the most full-blown hardliners, he has

10:50

a crucial support base amongst the

10:52

more aggressive Christianising tendencies. Well,

10:54

culture wars, we wouldn't know anything about those

10:56

these days. I mean, that's completely alien. Indeed.

10:59

And as well as making it illegal

11:01

to be a pagan, he will start

11:03

to increase legal penances and to make

11:05

life much harder for heretics, for those

11:08

who follow forms of the Christian faith

11:10

in regards as erroneous, really

11:12

cracks down also on the legal rights and

11:14

civil liberties of his Jewish subjects and the

11:17

Samaritans who remain a major force at this

11:19

point in the Holy Land. I mean, he

11:21

sounds like a bit of a pill, to be honest. I mean,

11:23

he doesn't sound that much fun. He is

11:25

determined, as it were, to fully

11:28

Christianise the Roman state to achieve

11:30

divine favour. And also in an

11:32

age where elements within the Church

11:34

regard divine judgement and the last

11:37

phase as imminent from his perspective,

11:39

he is preparing the souls of

11:41

his subjects for judgement. Now, his

11:43

agenda, there's the Christianising aspect. There

11:46

is a concerted effort to resolve

11:48

divisions in the Imperial Church by

11:50

engaging the anti-Calsedonian party, the One

11:52

Nature party, theologically, but also by

11:55

trying to drive out the main theologians

11:57

who have been leading opposition to what

11:59

he's doing. regards to the true faith. Thirdly,

12:01

out of four priorities, he is

12:04

determined to restore legal order on

12:06

the Empire and he engages in

12:08

a remarkable codification of the Roman

12:10

legal tradition, one of the most

12:12

remarkable intellectual achievements of antiquity, and

12:14

also crucially, he adopts a much

12:17

more aggressive stance to the Empire's

12:19

enemies to East in Persia and

12:21

to the West in the form

12:23

of the new barbarian kingdoms. So

12:25

those are the four priorities that

12:27

will drive Justinian's reign. Okay, and

12:30

none of them sound like too much fun

12:32

unless you are in Justinian's inner circle or

12:34

you're approved to be a person he likes

12:36

and a person like him. Or you

12:38

share his agenda. Right, but on the other

12:40

hand, you've got some

12:42

really liberalising things that happen. So

12:45

for example, it is until now,

12:47

until this reign of Justinian, it

12:49

is legal to rape

12:52

a woman. There's no problem about that. But

12:54

it's under Justinian that it becomes illegal to

12:56

rape a woman. Is that coming from him

12:58

or is that coming from his co-ruler Theodora?

13:01

So there are two aspects here. So

13:03

Roman law traditionally hasn't really had a

13:05

concept of rape. Justinianic law will introduce

13:08

that. That's very important. Now Justinian's legislation,

13:10

his domestic legislation, a lot of it

13:12

is driven by the same Christianising agenda.

13:15

Now that Christianising agenda that makes

13:17

him very intolerant towards religious outsiders

13:19

in what one of his laws

13:21

he describes as his new Orthodox

13:23

Republic also leads him to

13:25

acts of charity towards groups like the

13:27

urban poor. For the first time, we

13:29

have concern for the handicapital disabled in

13:31

Roman law. For many of those at

13:33

the bottom end of the social spectrum,

13:35

for whom Roman law has previously been

13:37

a system that has no concern for

13:39

them. Now, I think a lot of

13:41

those more, what we would think of

13:43

as more liberal aspects of religion,

13:45

we can see Theodora's influence very

13:48

much at work there. Do we

13:50

know that Peter or do we

13:52

surmise that? Well, in terms of

13:54

her legal, her presence in the

13:56

laws, it's not just in that respect, we

13:58

see it more broadly in his agenda as well. So,

14:00

for example, he introduces a law

14:02

very early in his reign, making it

14:05

illegal for government officials to just buy

14:07

office. He makes it very clear

14:09

in that law that the first person he

14:11

consults on that legislation is his wife, only

14:13

once he's consulted her, as he goes to

14:15

his Chief Minister, John the Cappadocian. Likewise,

14:18

in a very early law, this

14:20

really has put nerves on edge

14:22

amongst his Conservative critics, he makes

14:24

all governors swear a personal oath

14:26

of loyalty to both

14:28

him and the Adora. This

14:30

is remarkable in terms of establishing her

14:32

at the heart of the political system.

14:34

Now, I think tracing her presence in

14:37

the legislation more generally is

14:39

more, I think, in terms of

14:41

the source of information of coming

14:44

into it. So, for example, we

14:46

have very vivid legislation issued under

14:48

Justinian, cracking down on

14:51

forcing girls into prostitution, cracking down

14:53

on trafficking girls for purposes of

14:56

prostitution, cracking down on those who

14:58

force women to work on the

15:00

stage and then prevent them from

15:02

giving up on their theatrical careers.

15:05

Is there anything like these very

15:07

liberal laws before? I mean, it

15:09

was just completely new in Roman

15:11

law. There's nothing as

15:14

detailed and as vivid as this. And

15:17

I think that the vividness is where

15:19

we're seeing, as it were, Justinian drawing

15:21

on her life experiences. The fine detail

15:23

of the legislation on the trafficking of

15:25

girls to prostitution, how they're offered shoes

15:28

and fancy clothes and food, if

15:31

they agree to go and work

15:33

for these flesh traffickers in the

15:35

city are really quite remarkable. Likewise,

15:38

it's important if we go back

15:40

to the marriage legislation, for example,

15:42

that made it possible for Theodora

15:44

to marry Justinian. The two of

15:46

them are simply having a personal

15:48

privilege extended to her. They are

15:51

having the law changed to make

15:53

it easy for all women who

15:55

have had slightly tainted pasts to

15:57

redeem themselves, to set aside their

16:00

past careers to make respectable marriages and

16:02

not just for themselves, mostly for their

16:04

daughters as well. So see, a daughter

16:07

seems to be lobbying not just to

16:09

make life better for herself, but

16:11

for people like her who have

16:13

had similar experiences. It's

16:16

really a very striking feature of

16:18

the legislation, which we can see becoming more

16:20

pronounced later in the rain as well. It's

16:22

striking, but also I'm sort of thinking it might

16:24

be controversial that you've got the old sort of

16:26

patriarchs of the city who are looking and going,

16:28

well, this would be happening, wouldn't it? Because he's

16:30

married a prostitute or, you know, just disparaging her.

16:32

Does that happen? Absolutely. So Procopius's

16:34

line is that in looking after

16:37

prostitutes, the adora is looking after

16:39

her own. Likewise, we know that

16:41

she found a nunnery in Constantinople

16:43

for reformed prostitutes. Procopius will

16:45

satirise this and say that women don't really want

16:47

to be there and some of them will throw

16:49

themselves out the window to try to escape. But

16:51

even there, Procopius is having to admit that she

16:53

does found this nunnery. It is a very

16:56

striking feature also that, for

16:58

example, whereas the initial legislation

17:00

for women who are escaping

17:03

sordid professions and trying to better

17:05

themselves, initially they have to sign a confession

17:07

whereby they admit to what they've done wrong

17:09

in their past as an act of creating

17:11

a new life. Once she's empress, she makes

17:14

it much easier. They don't have to do

17:16

that. And their children are free of any

17:18

taint. So she's very concerned, I think, not

17:20

just for the individual women, but also their

17:22

offspring. It's very unusual for Roman law to

17:24

show so much concern for women. Peter,

17:27

you said that we see the influence

17:29

of the adora very much in the

17:31

care for former prostitutes and

17:33

so on. But you've also

17:35

said that Justinian is cracking down on

17:38

religious dissidents and the adora is in

17:40

many ways herself a religious dissident.

17:42

We get the impression that she's taking

17:44

a very different theological line from him and

17:46

the Orthodox. Yes, so we

17:48

know, again, from the pro theodoran sources,

17:51

but also the anti theodoran sources agree

17:53

on this. But from very early on

17:55

in their relationship, she provides safe haven

17:57

in Constantinople for dissidents. clergyman

18:00

who are visiting the capital. Now this

18:02

when Justinian is initially his emperor is

18:04

initially quite useful for him because she

18:06

can then be used as a point

18:08

of contact and a mode of communication

18:10

with these elements within the church with

18:12

whom he is initially minded to try

18:15

to do a deal and

18:17

an attempt to resolve the

18:19

theological disputes of the era

18:21

from an abstract theological perspective

18:23

is one of the uniting

18:25

themes of Justinian's mind and

18:27

his reign. So

18:29

I think she is serving a

18:31

useful political function there as well.

18:33

This isn't just an arcane theological

18:35

detail that there is whole areas

18:37

of the empire, particularly Egypt and

18:39

Syria, where these distant views are

18:41

dominant. And historians will often argue

18:43

that when Islam comes along a

18:46

century later, that these areas

18:48

split off partly because they feel that there

18:50

are as much in opposition

18:52

to Constantinople and the theology there as they

18:55

are to the Arabs who

18:57

are offering a new empire with them part of

19:00

it. Yeah, I mean, that's partly

19:02

I think an optical illusion of our sources,

19:04

because in fact, what will eventually happen is

19:06

that Justinian ends up very

19:08

successfully driving the leading

19:10

dissident clergyman out of

19:12

the Imperial Church. The growth

19:14

of the anti-Calsedonian Church will really take

19:16

off when those territories are reconquered by

19:19

the Persians and the Arabs later on

19:21

and those later clergymen then as they

19:23

were reinvent the sixth century history to

19:25

make it look like they were more

19:27

influential. I think you're thinking like Nestorius,

19:29

first of all, exile to Kaga and

19:31

then the growth of that sort of

19:33

theology in the Persian Empire. Yes, there

19:35

is a sort of, I say the

19:37

real growth of the anti-Calsedonian communities will

19:39

be after these territories have been lost

19:41

to Roman rule. But Justinian, as I

19:43

say, is successful at driving out the

19:46

churchmen who most irritate him, but

19:48

he's always trying to find a

19:50

theological solution and trying to use

19:52

his wife as a point of

19:54

contact with these dissident clergymen, some

19:56

of whom will have to be

19:58

engaged with. his compromise

20:00

for media going to work. Okay,

20:02

so there are matters of Christ and then there

20:05

are matters of cash. And you did mention one

20:07

name, which is going to be very important. That's

20:09

John the Cappadocian a little while ago. He's in

20:11

charge of this much more draconian

20:13

tax collecting regimen that Justinian wants to

20:15

see. He doesn't like the Adora, he

20:17

doesn't like the Emperor's wife. What is

20:19

that about and how do we know

20:21

this? I think that, well, once again,

20:23

that law I referred to earlier in

20:26

which Justinian says that he consults the

20:28

Adora first, and then he consults John

20:30

the Cappadocian on the sale of offices.

20:32

That sort of thing is really going

20:34

to put John the Cappadocian's nose out

20:37

of joints. He wants direct access to

20:39

Justinian. Justinian and he chime. They have

20:41

a very common agenda. They both agree

20:43

on the fiscal priorities of the regime

20:45

in terms of squeezing money out of

20:47

the tax shy aristocracy and what have

20:50

you. He doesn't like the Adora getting

20:52

in the way. The Adora is always

20:54

very suspicious of John. So

20:56

we have a very anti John

20:58

the Cappadocian source, a man who's

21:00

working in the civil service called

21:03

John the Lydian. And he says,

21:05

actually, the only person who really

21:07

understands how bad John the Cappadocian

21:09

is, and is constantly warning Justinian

21:11

about him is the Adora. Likewise,

21:14

Procopius says that John the

21:16

Cappadocian is the only person

21:18

who Justinian allows to criticize

21:20

and preempt his faith. So

21:22

it's a real, there's a little puffle of call to

21:24

the Emperor's attention. It sounds like a lovely,

21:26

happy family. But John the Cappadocian, is it

21:28

him who brings a lot of hatred towards

21:30

the Emperor as well? This idea of the

21:32

cursus velux, a fast post? I mean, I

21:35

thought that was a really interesting thing that

21:37

it's such a simple thing. But if you

21:39

remove it, it causes so much harm to

21:41

so many people. Just talk us through what

21:44

happened with these these posts and why they

21:46

were important and whose fault that was. So

21:48

what you have is a

21:51

massive system of imperially subsidized

21:53

communication across the Empire with

21:55

imperially maintained roads, obviously, and

21:57

Caravanserize, as it were, the stopping

21:59

off. posts of which imperial officials can

22:02

rest and refresh and recharge, and

22:04

also a series of purely supplied

22:06

mounts to allow officials, messengers, by

22:08

this point bishops, to traverse the

22:10

empire at great speed. This is

22:12

very important for rapid communication and

22:14

the rapid transmission of knowledge. So

22:17

you swap your horse. I mean, in essence, you swap your horse.

22:19

That's why you get a fresh horse. Exactly. Now, the

22:21

early sixth century, they had this massive revival of

22:23

warfare with Persia, growing problems

22:25

with tax collections and local level due

22:27

to tax evasion. And John the Cappadocian

22:30

is determined to maximize state revenues with

22:32

Justinian support, partly by tightening the fiscal

22:34

knot by trying to raise more taxes

22:36

in the world's side, but also through

22:39

economizing. Yeah, we have a sort of

22:41

austerity agenda. And so he decides to

22:43

cut back on the fast post, as

22:45

it were, the system of supply and

22:47

communication in those areas that are least

22:50

important militarily. So it's maintained out

22:52

to the eastern frontier. It's maintained

22:54

down to the holy land, the

22:56

pilgrims, and it's retrenched elsewhere. But

22:58

this has massive economic ramifications for

23:00

those tradesmen and peasants who are

23:02

selling their goods to those who

23:04

are turning up at these Caravansi-style

23:06

stables and institutions and fortresses and

23:08

what have you. So that's very

23:10

unpopular. But also the broader fiscal

23:12

agenda is very, very unpopular, not

23:15

least of members of the Senate

23:17

in Constantinople, who are typically owners

23:19

of far flung estates and on

23:21

whose purses Justinian and John Cappadocian

23:23

have no eye. And Peter, we

23:25

should make it clear that it's

23:28

a very, very big spending regime.

23:30

The conquest that Justinian begins

23:32

to initiate are enormously expensive, as

23:34

are his building projects. And the

23:38

sort of rebuilding of churches and so on

23:41

is a massively expensive operation, which is

23:43

requiring enormous amounts of tax from across

23:45

the empire. As you say, in 533,

23:49

Justinian will start to send armies

23:51

to the west, taking advantage of

23:53

internal political crises in the barbarian

23:55

kingdoms, first in Africa, then in

23:57

Italy, later in Spain. I

24:00

think those campaigns are relatively cheap.

24:02

I think those are opportunistic campaigns,

24:04

largely on the cheap as it were, where

24:07

he's trying out to see how successful not

24:10

terribly large armies can be if sent

24:12

against these regimes at moments of internal

24:14

weakness. And the answer is very successful,

24:16

we should say. Very successful. But I

24:18

think that the major priority is defending

24:20

the Eastern frontier. And we have massive

24:22

investment in the defensive

24:25

infrastructure and the fortifications in

24:27

Syria, in Palestine, in the

24:29

Caucasus, also in the Balkans, to try

24:31

to give greater defense in depth to the

24:33

imperial regime there. As I'm sure we'll

24:35

come on to in the early 530s, mutter

24:37

monumental heart of Constantinople is destroyed by

24:40

rioters and has to be rebuilt. That

24:42

costs a lot. But also the army

24:44

costs a lot. There was the revival

24:46

of warfare with Persia in the early

24:48

sixth century, maintaining a large field army

24:50

to face down the Persians is very

24:52

expensive. Okay, I mean, you mentioned the

24:54

riots and we've taken our eye off them.

24:57

In the last episode, we talked about this

24:59

phenomenon a little bit like football supporters, where

25:01

you have supporters of different charioteers. They will

25:03

be the blues or the greens, who are

25:05

the major ones. And then you have the

25:07

reds and the yellows or whatever the puses,

25:09

nobody cares about them. Nobody talks about the

25:11

puses, they were terrible. But you've got these

25:14

two, which are the major ones, the blues

25:16

and the greens, that have an

25:18

underpinning of ideology. What does

25:20

Justinian do about them? And how does he sort

25:22

of cope with this division within

25:25

his empire? Well, Justinian has

25:27

used, manipulated the blues very successfully to

25:29

build up his own support on the

25:31

streets of Constantinople prior to becoming emperor.

25:33

Which is Theodora's own faction. They're the

25:35

ones who've ended up when her mother

25:37

remarried. They're the ones who give them

25:39

a home. Initially, after coming to the

25:41

throne in 527, Justinian

25:44

tries to distance himself from the

25:46

factions, now acting as emperor

25:48

rather than as a claimant to imperial power. He wants

25:50

to put them back in their box. Crucially,

25:53

in early 532, there's

25:56

an outbreak of rioting in Constantinople, and the

25:58

sort is quite common in terms of... fighting

26:00

and lawlessness associated with the factions and

26:02

Justinian has the leaders of both the

26:04

green and blue factions arrested. Which is

26:06

unprecedented. Yeah this is really and they

26:08

don't understand what's going on. It's like

26:11

the Italian government calling in the mafia.

26:13

Yeah and from you know they're thinking

26:15

particularly the blues you know are thinking

26:17

here's someone he's used us we're expecting

26:19

him to look after us what's happening

26:21

he's arresting our leaders so what you

26:23

then have is what is unprecedented is

26:25

that the greens and the blues these

26:27

hostile rival factions come together and start

26:30

rioting demanding the release of their leaders.

26:32

Now Justinian's regime was already unpopular

26:35

with senatorial elements in Constantinople. You

26:37

know the tax burden is rising.

26:39

Justinian and Theodora regardless upstarts. There

26:42

are very blue-blooded factions in Constantinople

26:44

who still have their eye on

26:46

the throne and what happens is

26:49

the Justinian senatorial opponents take advantage

26:51

of these riots probably start funding

26:53

them more start arming the rioters

26:55

in order to turn what begins

26:58

as an outbreak of civic rioting

27:00

into an attempted full-blown coup and

27:02

usurpation with the rioters besieging

27:04

Justinian and Theodora in the palace

27:07

from the Hippodrome which is immediately

27:09

next door immediately next door burning

27:11

down the senate house burning down

27:13

much of some of the surrounding

27:15

structures the Hippodrome destroying much of

27:17

the monumental heart of Constantinople including

27:19

the cathedral of Hagia Sophia the

27:21

old basilica building which stands next

27:23

the palace as well it is

27:25

wanton destruction with a view to

27:27

trying to drive Justinian from the

27:30

throne and from the city. And

27:32

if you're trying to usurp it helps if you have

27:34

a usurper to take the place I mean do they

27:36

have someone in mind who you know if they drive

27:38

Justinian and Theodora out they can replace them? Well

27:40

there is a young senator who's

27:42

very well regarded called Hypatious who

27:44

Justinian has with him in the

27:46

palace and when the riots are

27:49

going on he orders Hypatious out

27:51

of the palace. I think that's

27:53

because he's worried about there being

27:55

an internal palace coup and the

27:57

guards officers bringing Justinian.

27:59

Justinian down and putting Hypatia on the

28:01

side. He sends Hypatia out, taking the gamble,

28:04

I think, that the rioters will probably acclaim

28:06

Hypatia, but then at least he will know

28:08

who his enemies are and he will then

28:11

see what the situation is. And this is the

28:13

point he calls in a man who's going to

28:15

be very important for the rest of the story,

28:18

who is Count Belisarius. Yes, so

28:20

Belisarius is someone who, prior to

28:22

becoming Emperor, Justinian has been made

28:24

a general by his uncle and

28:26

father Justin. And Belisarius is a

28:29

fellow man from the Balkans, a

28:31

military man, who again, Justinian's got a

28:33

great eye for talent in terms of

28:35

John the Cappadocian, in terms of now

28:37

Belisarius. Belisarius has caught his eye as

28:40

a talented military man and when Justinian

28:42

comes to throne, he makes him general

28:44

on the east and there he inflicts

28:46

a major defeat on the Persians. And

28:49

in those lovely Ravenna mosaics, we see

28:51

not only Justinian and Theodora lined up

28:53

in all their splendor, we also see

28:55

Belisarius and his wife, Antonia. Yes, now

28:58

Belisarius is, after his major defeat of

29:00

the Persians, involved in a minor engagement which

29:02

goes less well and he's subjected to

29:04

a court martial. So his short period of

29:07

move from office. But when these riots break

29:09

out in Constantinople, there he is in the

29:11

palace. I think Justin is

29:13

about to reappoint him as a military

29:15

commander. But crucially, after some prevarication, he

29:18

will turn to Belisarius and one of

29:20

the other generals, a guy called Nastis,

29:22

to try to put the rioters in

29:24

place. But he only does so, we're

29:27

told, after considering taking flight. This

29:29

is interesting because this is where Procopius

29:31

actually paints Theodora in a more positive

29:33

guise. He considers taking flight, we're told,

29:35

and the only courtier who tells Justinian

29:38

not to play the palace and to

29:40

take on the rioters is his wife.

29:42

I mean Procopius gives her credit for

29:44

a change. It just says, actually,

29:46

that she was the one who steals him.

29:48

Or what's the phrase?

29:50

God crowned Theodora is the one who steadies

29:53

his nerve and stops him from running away.

29:55

It's as if, as a crucial moment in time, she's the

29:57

only man around him, as I think the message is conveying.

30:00

Now, there is some argument between

30:02

scholars. There was a speech put

30:04

into the mouth of Theodora when

30:06

Justinian is considering taking flight, where

30:08

she says royalty is a noble

30:10

burial shroud. So it's not something

30:12

you run away from. If you die in it, you

30:14

die in it. You die in office. She's a toughy.

30:17

Now, there was a speech attributed

30:19

to a character in earlier ancient

30:21

Greek history called Dionysius of Syracuse.

30:23

He was regarded as one of

30:26

the most infamous tyrants of antiquity.

30:28

And when his population rose up

30:30

against him, he put them down supposedly

30:32

with the words tyranny as a noble

30:34

burial shroud. So some would argue that

30:37

that speech that the Copius puts into

30:39

the mouth of Theodora is actually critical

30:41

in that it's trying to

30:43

draw comparisons between Justinian and the tyrant

30:45

Dionysius. But one doesn't have to read

30:47

it that way. You know, I can

30:49

also think of that as a contrast.

30:51

At the end of the day, she

30:53

does say royalty or the imperial office,

30:55

not tyranny. And I think that the

30:57

way in which she is presented as

30:59

stealing Justinian's nerves by an author who

31:02

is otherwise quite hostile to her is

31:04

very telling. And from that point on,

31:06

after he successfully defeats the rioters with

31:08

a terrible slaughter, we should say there

31:10

is unbelievable bloodshed in the streets. I

31:13

mean, how many people do we think are killed in

31:15

that sort of retribution? Possibly up

31:17

to 5% of the entire population of

31:19

Constantinople. Good Lord, that's enormous.

31:21

Yeah. But after that, and

31:23

it's after that, as it were, that

31:25

her influence over him in religious and

31:28

theological matters will be at its height,

31:30

and where she almost gets him to

31:32

do a deal with the leaders of

31:34

the anti-C Macedonian party, though that ultimately

31:36

goes wrong because of their intransigence, not

31:39

Justinian's. Okay, so but I mean, from

31:41

the embers, there has to be rebuilding. And

31:44

you know, you mentioned the sort of the

31:46

burning of important buildings, how you're so fierce,

31:48

so badly damaged during these riots. Does

31:50

Theodora have a hand in

31:53

rebuilding Constantinople, raising it again

31:55

from these ashes? So

31:57

Justinian and Theodora take advantage

32:00

of the enormous destruction done to

32:02

the monumental heart of Constantinople to,

32:04

as it were, rebuild the city

32:07

to their own self-glorification and, as

32:09

it were, to blazon the achievements

32:12

and ambition of their regime. So

32:14

we have a wave of church

32:16

building across the city to, as

32:19

it were, imprint more fully the Christian vision of

32:22

Constantinople and the landscape. And

32:24

chief amongst this is, of course, the

32:26

creation, the building of Justinian's greatest church,

32:28

the Cathedral Church of Hagia

32:31

Sophia, replacing the old rectangular basilica

32:33

with this enormous domed structure that

32:35

still dominates the skyline of Istanbul

32:37

until the 16th century, the largest

32:39

domed structure in the world in

32:41

which you could place a 15-story

32:44

building. Could I read the little

32:46

wonderful Procopius quote when he's writing

32:48

about his impression of the newly

32:50

built Hagia Sophia? He says, So

32:53

bright is the glow of the

32:55

interior that you might say it

32:57

is not illuminated by the sun from outside,

33:00

but that the radiance is generated

33:02

within. Rising above

33:05

is an enormous spherical dome which

33:07

seems not to be founded on

33:09

solid masonry, but to be suspended

33:11

from heaven by a golden

33:14

chain. Whatever one goes into

33:16

this church to pray, one understands immediately

33:18

that this work has been fashioned not

33:20

by human power and skill, but by

33:22

the influence of God. And

33:25

so the visitor's mind is lifted up

33:27

to God and floats aloft, thinking

33:29

that he cannot be far away, but

33:31

must love to dwell in this

33:34

place, which he himself has chosen.

33:36

It's a remarkable description and

33:39

there's a deliberate effort of

33:41

harnessing sound engineering, light engineering,

33:44

the construction of the dome, the acoustics

33:46

of the dome, to try to convey

33:48

a sense of other worldliness in Hagia

33:51

Sophia and to give the sense of

33:53

it is where divinity and creation meet.

33:55

It is God's dwelling place on earth.

33:58

Now Justinian's role in the construction Dischurches

34:00

always emphasise, but he is also

34:02

careful to emphasise Theodora's role as

34:05

well. So, for example, around the

34:07

structure, you have a whole series

34:09

of columns with monograms on the

34:12

column tops, and 89 of

34:14

these monograms are the name of Justinian, 30

34:16

of them are the name

34:18

of Theodora. So he's blazoning her

34:21

role in this construction as well.

34:23

But it's an extraordinary act of

34:25

opportunism to take advantage of this

34:27

mass destruction to now, as it

34:29

were, make this enormous statement of

34:31

the ambition and achievement of the

34:33

regime. And it's an opportunism

34:35

that then feeds into those Western campaigns.

34:37

It's after Nica Riot, Justinian decides to

34:40

send his armies west to try to,

34:42

as it were, refloat the regime's military

34:44

credentials, as well as its domestic political

34:47

ones. And this is the first

34:49

time that the Roman Empire in

34:51

a sense has struck back. We've

34:53

just seen it retreat. It's retreated

34:55

from Britain, it's retreated from Gaul

34:57

and Spain and finally Italy. But

34:59

now, for the first time in

35:02

the 530s, we're seeing a determined

35:04

and partially successful efforts to reconquer

35:06

the lost West. Yeah, in the

35:08

late 460s, an armada had been

35:10

sent from Constantinople to try to

35:12

reconquer the very wealthy territories of

35:14

North Africa, which the Vandals had

35:16

settled themselves in. That was destroyed

35:19

by the fire ships of the Vandal

35:21

King Geisrich. This is the first effort

35:23

since then. And when Justinian announces he's

35:25

going to send an armada of his

35:27

own to North Africa, John the Cappadocian

35:29

is very opposed, pointing out how expensive

35:32

and disastrous the last effort had been.

35:34

But Justinian is persuaded to press ahead.

35:37

In the case of Africa,

35:39

not to seem encouraged by

35:41

Theodora, but more by elements

35:43

within the Imperial Church who

35:45

regard the Vandals as heretics.

35:47

That will be a wonderful start to part

35:50

two. But just before we go to the

35:52

break, can we just remind ourselves that again,

35:55

that little detail you gave us of

35:57

the pillars themselves having both of these

35:59

names. Theodora and Justinian

36:02

sort of inscribed, these two in

36:05

sickness and in health for richer for

36:07

poorer are still in love. I mean

36:09

it's an unusual thing that a marriage

36:11

lasts this long through such adversity when

36:13

even when things are going well you

36:15

know that he doesn't forget her. It's

36:17

amazing. We're told that the only point

36:19

of tension between them is that she

36:21

wants him to get rid of John the Cappadocian and he

36:23

is very loathe too. Okay well on that note

36:25

let's take a break. We'll be back soon. Welcome

36:33

back. In the last

36:36

half of this episode Peter Sarris

36:38

was taking us to the climax

36:40

of the reign of Justinian and

36:43

Theodora. This is an

36:45

incredibly rich empire that is

36:47

flexing its muscles to raise

36:49

enormous amounts of tax revenue

36:51

to build brand new basilicas

36:53

not just in Constantinople but

36:55

in Bethlehem, in the Sinai

36:58

and in future in Europe in

37:01

Ravenna. They're also beginning to

37:03

look at conquest and

37:05

the Roman Empire has been on the back foot

37:07

effectively for 200 years. The barbarians

37:10

of various sorts and enemies of

37:12

Rome have been pouring over the

37:14

frontiers threatening all the centers of

37:16

power and the west has fallen

37:18

but now Justinian and

37:20

Theodora think the moment is

37:22

ripe to begin what they

37:25

hope will be the reconquest

37:27

of the west. Peter take us there.

37:29

What is their plan? These campaigns

37:32

I think are very opportunistic taking advantage

37:34

of internal power struggles in certain of

37:36

the key successor kingdoms in the west.

37:38

I don't think Justinian has a view

37:40

to reconquer the western Roman Empire as

37:42

a whole. He's not heading for Hadrian's

37:44

Wall at this point. Yeah exactly but

37:47

restoring direct Roman control over as much

37:49

of the Mediterranean is

37:51

crucial. 533 he sent his armies

37:53

into Africa where in a very

37:55

speedy campaign they reconquer the very

37:57

wealthy territories of Roman North Africa.

38:00

which had previously been ruled over by the

38:02

Vandals. Now, there's no sign Theodore was

38:04

involved in that. In 535, he then sent

38:06

his armies into Italy. Here, I think she

38:09

is involved. So the pretext, the invasion of

38:11

Italy, is that we have a queen

38:14

ruling in Italy, the Queen Amalasuntha

38:16

of the Goths. The regime had

38:18

been founded by her father Theodoric,

38:21

the Ostrogoth, a very great ruler.

38:23

His wonderful tomb is sitting in

38:25

Ravenna still. Absolutely. Now, he dies

38:27

without a son. Amalasuntha becomes queen,

38:30

and she corresponds to Justinian

38:32

and with Theodora. But we

38:34

also have correspondence between Theodora

38:37

and Amalasuntha's cousin, Theodahad. Theodahad

38:40

assassinates Amalasuntha. And

38:43

we have a letter from him to Theodora saying,

38:46

oh, we've made arrangements to get rid of a certain person

38:48

you want rid of. Oh my

38:50

God! Is that a new discovery of

38:52

yours, Peter? I've never heard that said. Oh

38:54

no, that's preserved in the letters of

38:57

Cassiodorus. But that's direct foreign

38:59

policy, Machiavelli intervention.

39:01

Wow. Likewise, we

39:04

have a source that she may, everyone has

39:06

to be a bit more careful, that during

39:08

the course of the Byzantine or the East

39:10

Roman re-contest of Africa in 537, a

39:13

pope in Rome is removed from office,

39:15

Pope Silvarius. Later, papal sources will blame

39:18

Theodora for that as well. When you

39:20

say removed from office, do you mean

39:22

assassinated again? No, he's taken off into

39:24

exile and replaced by somebody else. Kidnapped

39:27

or? He's taken off into Greece for

39:29

his own safety, as it were. Gosh!

39:32

Now, in concept and in the itself

39:34

as well, she is very involved in

39:36

court politics, not just in terms of

39:38

lobbying legislation in the way we've seen,

39:40

but also she's very careful to protect

39:42

her husband from any obvious potential claimant

39:44

to the throne. So she

39:47

is very suspicious of the General

39:49

Belisarius, who leads these campaigns of

39:51

re-conquest in Africa and Italy after

39:54

helping to crush the Nicarias. So

39:56

she's always sort of trying to

39:58

marginalize him. Quite a complicated

40:00

one, isn't it, Peter? Because initially

40:03

she'd been an ally of Balasaris

40:05

and Balasaris' wife, Antonia, against John

40:07

the Cappadocian. John the Cappadocian is

40:09

regarded by Balasarius as undermining his

40:11

campaigns by not giving him enough

40:13

money. And what we see

40:15

is that actually a daughter and Balasaris'

40:18

wife plot against John the Cappadocian and

40:20

managed to bring him down by getting

40:22

him to plot against Justinian. And he's

40:25

exiled to the Karga Oasis. Exactly. Such

40:27

as Justinian finds out and has to

40:29

exile him. Now, what's remarkable about

40:31

that story is that that

40:34

is reported in Procopius' publicly circulated

40:36

writing, his history of the wars.

40:38

So that's a story that's getting

40:40

widespread circulation and probably wouldn't have

40:42

been put in that work had

40:44

a broader body of political society

40:46

not known it or believed it

40:48

to be true. Oh, because

40:50

that makes them very tricksy.

40:52

This is becoming like House of Cards now. You've

40:55

got this power couple who... A lot of cards

40:57

or Game of Thrones where people

40:59

are manipulating everybody behind the scenes.

41:01

Well, it's funny you should say that if there

41:04

were a film made of Justinian's regime, I think the

41:06

person who'd be best playing Procopius would actually be Kevin

41:08

Spacey. So I think they'd be House of Cards. You've

41:11

got the still plotted out, Peter. Have you showed your film rights?

41:14

I have a note. Absolutely love an academic

41:16

who watches, you know, crap on telly like we

41:18

do. Gore Vidal did write a screenplay for

41:20

film of Justinian for Martin Scorsese, but

41:22

nothing ever came of it, unfortunately. Oh,

41:24

how tragic. Would have

41:27

been a good one. So we're talking about Theodora

41:29

wanting to protect her husband, and you can see

41:31

why you've got all these manipulative dark hands sort

41:33

of operating behind the scenes. But

41:36

they do start to see a

41:38

decline in their imperial rule. What

41:40

starts to provoke the downward slide of

41:42

this sort of magical couple? The

41:44

first wave of problems begins as early, probably

41:46

as the mid 530s, when we have a

41:49

period of very dramatic climate disruption around the

41:51

Mediterranean and beyond. Our friend Peter Frankopan makes

41:53

much of this in his new history of

41:55

the world. An excellent section of

41:57

Peter's book, where probably due to volcanic

42:00

eruptions in Central America, we have enormous

42:02

climatic disruption in the Northern Hemisphere, which

42:04

undermines agriculture. Agriculture is the base of

42:07

taxation. This is gonna make it harder

42:09

to raise the money for Justinian's armies.

42:11

So you start getting problems beginning in

42:13

the late 530s. Then

42:16

crucially, in 541-2, we have the first

42:18

known outbreak of

42:21

the bubonic plague in the history of

42:23

the Mediterranean world, which arrives in the

42:25

Mediterranean via Egypt. This will spread like

42:27

wildfire. It's in Constantinople in 542. Even

42:31

Justinian falls ill with it and

42:33

almost dies. His recovery will be

42:35

regarded as near miraculous. A nurse

42:37

by Theodora? We have no mention

42:39

of that, but clearly

42:41

prayers are being said probably after

42:44

his recovery, he patronizes the

42:46

Church of Saint-Cousmas and Damien in Constantinople,

42:49

who were two doctor saints, as it

42:51

were. So the plague, which will then

42:53

recur throughout his reign, in fact, down

42:55

to the eighth century, will lead to

42:57

massive governmental disruption, and of course, a

42:59

massive loss of taxpayers on whom the

43:01

empire depends. You also have a revival

43:03

of basic resistance to the

43:05

armies of the conquest in Italy, and

43:08

massive military pressure, once again,

43:10

from Persia, with the Persian

43:12

Shah Khusro driving his cavalry

43:14

into Roman territory and sacking

43:16

Antioch, the greatest city of

43:18

the east after Constantinople. So we

43:21

have melting military pressure and internal

43:23

crisis. These are grim years for

43:25

the couple where the regime, as

43:27

it were, settles into dogged routine

43:29

of survival, trying to stabilize this

43:31

battered Roman state. Peter, we should

43:34

also give an impression of the

43:36

sheer horror of this plague, what

43:38

it's like to see

43:40

someone caught by it, and what

43:42

happens to them. Take us through

43:44

the development of the plague. Well,

43:46

the bubonic plague, in the absence of

43:48

modern medicine, is one of the most deadly

43:51

diseases known to mankind. And we now have

43:53

genetic evidence for what the strain of the

43:55

bubonic plague in the sixth century looked like.

43:58

And it is genetically so serious. similar to

44:00

the strains we have of the Black

44:02

Death, that we should assume a very

44:04

similar rate of mortality. So this is

44:06

a plague which in the absence of

44:08

its mnemonic strain, if once you go

44:10

down with it, initially you'll start getting

44:12

headaches, fevers, eventually you will grow the

44:14

bubo, that is the clear sign that

44:17

you've got this horrific black pustule in

44:19

your armpit or neck or elsewhere in

44:21

the groin. Roughly half of those who

44:23

get this disease will die of it

44:25

in the course of five to six

44:27

days. As I say, it devastates the

44:29

city of Constantinople. You slip

44:31

into a coma, delirium, you start vomiting

44:33

and these black pustules spread, you start

44:36

vomiting blood. It's one of the most

44:38

horrific diseases you can possibly get. And

44:40

Procopius is present in Constantinople as an

44:42

eyewitness to see this plague arrive. He

44:44

gives us a remarkably vivid account, as

44:47

also is one of Theodora's pet clergyman,

44:49

John of Ephesus. This is the man

44:51

who tells us that Theodora, whom he's

44:53

devoted to prior to her redemption, came

44:55

from the fossil. He is travelling around

44:58

the eastern provinces of the empire to

45:00

Constantinople, again as the plague arrives. And his

45:02

description of Procopius' are very, very similar, in

45:05

the sense of mass mortality. And at the

45:07

peak of it, it's between five

45:09

and 10,000 victims

45:11

a day in Constantinople.

45:14

Yeah, it's conceivable that the population of

45:16

the imperial capital may be reduced by

45:20

30, 40% very rapidly, and then has to be

45:22

repopulated from the surrounding cities. Can you

45:24

say Justinian sort of has it, but miraculously survives it?

45:27

Does that change him at all? Because you know, sometimes

45:29

you have people who are on the verge of death

45:31

and who come back and, well, he's already seen the

45:33

light. What does he see once he's come back from

45:35

the brink of death? I think it intensifies

45:37

his sense of the urgency of moral

45:39

and religious reform at home. He cracks

45:42

down still more aggressively on those he

45:44

regards as sources of religious corruption. Because

45:46

he thinks that this is divine rouse.

45:48

Exactly. It's a kind of divine displeasure.

45:51

He's also cracked down, I should emphasise,

45:53

on first time anyway, when Empah does

45:55

this, on

45:57

those whose sexual lifestyle he regards as

45:59

immoral. He's the first Roman Emperor

46:01

to make it have a blanket ban

46:04

on sexual activity between men, for example,

46:06

where he draws on the biblical model

46:08

of Sodom and Gomorrah to justify his

46:10

persecution of gay men. But that's a

46:13

radical change, isn't it? Because it had

46:15

been very common. Yeah. So it further

46:17

intensifies his fixation with moral and religious

46:19

catharsis. It intensifies his determination to try

46:22

to perfect imperial theology. And as it

46:24

were, it also leads to a still

46:26

greater theological fixation on the part of

46:28

an emperor who's always obsessed with

46:31

these things. He however, may be

46:33

surer than ever of his faith and

46:35

his divine right to rule and the

46:37

fact that he's following heavenly

46:39

signs. But then something happens

46:41

which just shakes him completely. And that's the

46:43

death of Theodora. We're talking 548. So

46:46

not long after the plague. Do

46:48

we know how she died, what she died of and what

46:50

exactly it did to him? It sometimes suggested

46:52

she might have died of some sort of

46:55

cancer. We don't really know. We

46:58

have no terribly vivid descriptions

47:00

of her death. Unfortunately, we

47:02

don't really have any terribly

47:04

vivid descriptions of her

47:06

burial other than we know that she

47:08

is buried in a mausoleum that Justinian

47:11

has built specially for the two of

47:13

them adjacent to the Church of the

47:15

Holy Apostles where the Emperor Constantine and

47:18

many of his imperial successors,

47:20

the throne of Constantinople, would be

47:22

buried. And we have a count of

47:24

Justinian later in his reign stopping off

47:26

when returning from visits outside the city,

47:28

stopping off at the church to light

47:30

candles and pray for the soul of

47:32

his wife. It clearly has

47:34

a great psychological impact on him. We're told

47:37

that his generals in Italy, the campaign in

47:39

Italy will continue into the early 550s. His

47:42

generals in Italy worried that with Theodora dead,

47:44

that he's simply lost interest in the Western

47:47

reconquest, that his eyes

47:49

are fixed ever more towards heaven,

47:51

where he prays and towards Theodora

47:53

and presents her as interceding

47:56

with God and the Virgin Mary on

47:58

behalf of him, his regime. and

48:00

the Empire. It's a real love

48:02

affair, this. It's a really serious...

48:05

Absolutely, yeah. Eventually those around him

48:07

managed to refocus the Emperor's attentions

48:09

and the 550s will see a

48:11

number of really interesting imperial interventions.

48:13

The sending of armies into Spain,

48:15

the stealing of the secrets of

48:17

silk productions in the East. These

48:19

are, once again, very marvellous diplomatic

48:22

moves to isolate the Persians in

48:25

the Caucasus. So the regime regained

48:27

something of its energy but clearly

48:29

her death has a major impact. Before

48:31

she dies though, she's not only tried to

48:33

protect the Emperor, she's also tried to advance

48:36

her family. So her daughter,

48:38

for example, we know that her

48:40

daughter, whose name we don't know, but we

48:42

know that she arranges her daughter to find

48:45

a posh husband, so she marries into the

48:47

household of the former Emperor Anastasius, and

48:49

one of her nieces, Sophia, ends

48:52

up marrying a nephew of Justinian's

48:54

and he will be the Emperor

48:56

Justin II who succeeds Justinian when

48:59

he dies in 565. So

49:01

her niece, who's very much a chip off the

49:03

old block, will become an Empress in her own

49:06

life, the Empress of thea. And I mean

49:08

with this sort of the looking to heavens,

49:10

the saying that she's up there, she's up

49:13

there somewhere and she's interceding with God and

49:15

she's best friends with Jesus and all of

49:17

that kind of thing, is that the start

49:19

of the, I suppose, the

49:21

pathway to becoming a saint? Or because we

49:23

know that's what happens eventually, what is the

49:26

route by which she now becomes an

49:28

important part of Orthodox Christianity? So

49:31

the status of Justinian and

49:33

Theodora in Christian piety moving forward

49:35

is slightly complicated because Justinian, late

49:37

in his reign, whilst trying

49:40

out a new theological formula, does fall out of

49:42

elements within the Imperial Church. So he doesn't die

49:44

in good odour with some of the church leadership.

49:46

Now he will be regarded

49:49

ultimately and so will she within

49:51

the Orthodox tradition and

49:53

celebrated as saints. But her

49:55

religious standing, her sanctity will

49:57

of course be most clear.

50:00

clearly and unambiguously celebrated

50:02

in the Church of the East.

50:05

The members of the anti-Calsedonian churches,

50:07

whom as well alluded to earlier,

50:09

would so thrive initially under Arab

50:11

Muslim rule from the 7th century

50:13

onwards. Just emphasise that

50:15

point again Peter, because I think

50:17

many of our listeners will be

50:19

surprised by that. These churches thrived

50:21

under Arab rule. Yes, so as

50:23

it were, those sections of the

50:26

Christian community that had progressively fallen

50:28

out with Constantinople theologically over the

50:30

course of the 5th and 6th centuries,

50:32

they would thrive under Arab

50:35

rule in the 7th. The Arab

50:37

conquerors of the 7th century aren't

50:39

really interested in converting people to

50:41

Islam, and in fact even pro-Calsedonian

50:43

Christian communities would do quite well

50:46

and expand. By the time we get

50:48

to the year 700, most Christians in

50:50

the world are living under the Arab

50:52

caliphs. It's a remarkable fact. And within

50:54

the Church of the East, the anti-Calsedonian

50:57

elements of the Eastern churches, Theodora would

50:59

unambiguously be regarded as a saint

51:01

and a model of piety. In

51:04

Byzantium, as I say, both Justinian and

51:06

Theodora have a slightly more mixed reputation,

51:08

but we know for example that in

51:10

the later Byzantine period, pilgrims in Constantinople

51:13

would go to a church built on

51:15

the site of what was believed to

51:17

be a sort of textile factory where

51:19

it was believed as a young girl

51:21

should work as a weaver. That's

51:24

the story of her more

51:26

common background that's cultivated at that

51:29

point there. To the West, however,

51:31

one will always have rumours in

51:34

circulation emphasising a slightly

51:36

shadier past. So we have an early

51:38

medieval account, a bit confused,

51:40

describing how the author of that

51:43

source believed that Justinian and his

51:45

busy mate, Belisarius, had met Theodora

51:47

and Belisarius' wife when they were

51:50

both working as a brothel, which

51:52

they visited when they were soldiers.

51:54

Interestingly, there in that story, Theodora

51:57

and Belisarius' wife are described as

51:59

Amazon. You know, huge

52:01

mythological women. And they are tall

52:03

in those mosaics. Theodora is a

52:06

tall woman. But Procopius says that

52:08

whilst Theodora is pretty and has

52:10

remarkably lively eyes, she's quite short.

52:13

So, as it were, that later

52:15

medieval story may catch something of

52:17

Theodora's personality, but not quite her

52:19

stature, as remembered by contemporary. Peter,

52:22

you seem to be particularly fond

52:24

of Theodora. Even more so

52:26

perhaps, even your biography was named Justinian.

52:28

But of the two, you maybe paint

52:30

a more sympathetic picture of Theodora than

52:32

him. Yes, Justinian is a very difficult

52:34

man to warm to. And I don't

52:36

make any particular effort to do so.

52:38

And his legacy to Byzantium and the

52:41

formation of Christendom, and indeed his influence

52:43

on the early Islamic world, his formative

52:45

phase, would be absolutely immense. Whereas

52:47

in Theodora, I think we see

52:49

someone who rises from just terrible

52:51

circumstances, and who in the

52:53

course of her ascent, uses her power, not

52:56

just to help herself and her immediate

52:59

family, but other women like

53:01

her, and helps

53:03

to inflict the more charitable

53:05

aspects of Justinian legislation in

53:08

an even more charitable direction. So I

53:10

think that it's very hard to come

53:12

away from the study of the

53:14

period liking Justinian. It's very

53:16

hard to come away from the study

53:18

of this period not actually quite liking

53:20

Theodora. What a wonderful way to end.

53:23

We're all team Theodora here now. We are. Thank

53:26

you so much. You're an absolute superstar.

53:28

It is an amazing story. You tell

53:30

it so well. And if you want

53:32

to read Peter Cyrus' masterful book on

53:34

this, Justinian. It is a wonderful,

53:36

wonderful book. Do not miss this book. Yeah.

53:39

Emperor Justinian, you can get it at a

53:41

discount if you are a friend of Empire.

53:44

Join the Empire Club. All you need to

53:47

do is sign up at empirepoduk.com and

53:49

you'll get lots of delicious things, including that.

53:52

But listen, it's been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for

53:54

being with us, Peter. Until the next

53:56

time, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnon. Goodbye

53:59

from me. room. But before I

54:01

go, I just want to ask, are you going

54:03

to go out, as you did yesterday, Peter, now

54:05

and have a delicious Thessaloniki glass of dry white

54:07

wine and halva in

54:09

the Holy Week streets of Thessaloniki?

54:12

I leave the city tomorrow morning, so I'm going

54:15

to go down to the seafront and

54:17

have a refreshing glass of Uzo and

54:20

then ponder what gastronomic delicacies this marvellous

54:22

city has to offer me for the

54:24

rest of my stay, such as it

54:26

is. Well, enjoy it.