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and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnim.

1:58

And me, William Durham. And

2:00

this is the final episode on

2:03

Queen Victoria. Previously on this podcast

2:05

we left you with two

2:07

seismic events, or three seismic events

2:09

in fact, in Queen Victoria's life.

2:11

We had the Great Exhibition which

2:13

secures Britain's place as the world's

2:15

superpower in the eyes of Britain

2:17

and the world. We had the

2:19

Mutiny, the First War of Independence

2:21

in India in 1857

2:24

and how that changes, at

2:26

least in India, the image of British

2:28

rule. And also how Queen Victoria is out

2:30

of step. You know, that girl who would not

2:33

be told by her pretty counsel what to do

2:35

and what to say and to make John Conroy

2:37

her advisor is the same woman

2:39

who sort of flies in the face of all

2:41

of these demands of retribution and says, actually, you

2:43

know what, no, stop. That's not what I want.

2:46

I think one of the things that we see at

2:48

this point as the Great

2:50

Exhibition is reaching its climax is

2:52

this is also the moment when

2:55

monarchies are at their absolute peak. It

2:58

isn't just that empire is at its

3:00

peak in 1851. This is the moment

3:02

when so much

3:04

of the world is ruled by monarchs

3:07

and many of them are

3:10

related by marriage or otherwise

3:12

to Queen Victoria. At this

3:14

point, if we were to

3:16

do a survey, you have the Romanovs

3:18

in Russia that we looked at last

3:20

year in our Russian series. You've got

3:23

Louis Napoleon in France, Franz

3:25

Joseph in Austria-Hungary, followed not

3:27

long after by the Willimian

3:29

imperial monarchy of Germany. To

3:31

these continental empires were added

3:34

overseas annexes, the Portuguese

3:36

in Brazil, the French in

3:38

Mexico, albeit briefly, and the Dutch

3:40

in Indonesia. Only the

3:42

Spanish colonial empire is in retreat.

3:44

This is the heyday of Viceriegal

3:47

rule. What happens in 1857, a

3:49

few months later, as

3:51

we saw in the last episode, is

3:53

this moment when this is all punctured

3:56

by the largest act of anti-colonial resistance

3:58

in history, the 1857. 57-8 Indian

4:00

Mutiny of First World Independence.

4:03

And then finally, we left the last

4:05

episode with her grieving for Albert, the

4:07

love of her life, and

4:10

willing to give up everything, willing to give up

4:12

all of her sense of duty and

4:14

service and ideas of being Queen

4:16

of England, something that she fought so

4:19

hard to make mean something after he

4:21

dies, and being lost really. And it's

4:23

only when her son's life is threatened

4:26

by the same illness that takes

4:28

his father 10 years before. And

4:30

he survives, and there is

4:32

this great ceremony of thanks at

4:34

St Paul's Cathedral where people turn out in

4:37

enormous numbers to cheer the Queen where she

4:39

sort of wakes up and thinks,

4:41

actually, my people are here and they love

4:43

me and they need me. And it is,

4:45

you know, she's back. She's back. But it's

4:47

a difficult time for her because she has

4:49

to enter that public arena where he was

4:51

always by her side. And she does become

4:54

apparent, you know, it becomes very clear

4:56

that she's somebody who needs someone to

4:58

prop her up. And she finds that.

5:01

She's lonely. Not unusual for human beings. Yeah,

5:03

they're on their own. No. And, you

5:05

know, she finds great comfort in

5:07

your part of the world, William de Rimpault, who is

5:09

it that gives her that propping up? She

5:12

most certainly does. This is,

5:14

of course, a reference to

5:16

John Brown, memorably

5:18

played by Billy Connolly in

5:20

yet another Queen Victoria movie,

5:22

one we haven't mentioned yet.

5:24

And John

5:27

Brown was originally Prince

5:29

Albert's Gilly, which is a

5:31

kind of Scottish outdoors man

5:33

servant, but one who particularly

5:36

specializes in fishing and

5:38

in stalking. And they

5:40

soon become very close friends. He

5:43

was described as having a magnificent

5:45

physique and was a loyal

5:47

friend and competent to the royal couple

5:50

before Albert's death. But after his death,

5:53

Victoria and John Brown grow close. And she

5:55

was well aware of the rumors that accompanied

5:57

their relationship. Well, they used to call him Mrs. Brown, which

5:59

is famous. the name of the film.

6:01

But it's not just his physique, obviously

6:03

he's good looking and she does like

6:05

a pretty man around her, but she's

6:07

always appreciated that. But she says about

6:10

Jean-Ran, he is so devoted to

6:12

me, so simple, so intelligent, so

6:14

unlike an ordinary servant and so

6:16

cheerful and attentive. He

6:18

was exactly the kind of person who

6:20

just wouldn't have her moping and basically

6:22

had the guts to break out of

6:25

his role as being merely the ghillie

6:27

to actually say, you know, buck up

6:29

woman. Yeah, she has a title, which

6:31

is the Queen's Highland Servant on £120 a

6:33

year. And

6:35

it's funny because it doesn't actually, you'll

6:38

see this time and time again when

6:40

she makes a friend in a lowest

6:42

sort of circle than her own, a

6:44

lower social circle, but those around her

6:47

courteous, they do not like

6:49

it. They don't like it at all. They don't like it

6:51

at all. There's no question that the

6:53

other courteous are jealous and so on, but

6:56

there's also some suggestion that there really might

6:58

be some emotional attachment. Well, she's so much

7:00

older than her. I don't think it can

7:02

be a sexual thing. I mean, I was sort of

7:05

looking back at it, but she does like a man

7:07

who is devoted as Albert was

7:09

devoted, as Dalip Singh

7:11

for a while was devoted and then

7:13

clearly that goes to hell. But John

7:15

Brown is also devoted and she appreciates

7:17

that, she needs that, she feeds off

7:19

that. And you know, wouldn't dare say,

7:21

I suppose there is love. Love can

7:23

be without sexual love, I

7:26

suppose, because there is an age difference

7:28

between these two. He is young, he

7:30

is vital, he is life itself and

7:32

she's been sort of yanked out of

7:34

grief and sadness. And that's what she

7:36

needed. She needed life itself. She needed

7:38

someone who's cheery and drag her out

7:40

of her misery. So

7:42

when he finally dies, she

7:45

writes, the comfort of my daily

7:47

life is gone. The void is terrible.

7:49

The loss is irreparable. There's another moment

7:52

of mourning when John Brown dies in 1883.

7:56

It's really interesting because grief has become a

7:58

familiar friend now. with her. Do you know

8:00

one of the people who sent a council

8:03

her out of her grief? So interesting is

8:05

Tennyson, Alfred Lord Tennyson,

8:07

who is the poet laureate at the time.

8:09

And there are lovely accounts of

8:11

him sort of being told to go

8:13

and visit her and say soothing words. He's like, I don't

8:15

know what to bloody say. Like he's quite

8:18

a nervous, shy man. I don't know what to say to

8:20

the woman. But he sort of sits there and in his

8:22

silence she finds solitude. He's another

8:24

of those sort of fantastic looking Victorians.

8:27

Yeah. So she doesn't mind his company. You

8:29

know my lovely, my great

8:32

aunt, Judy Margaret Cameron, the photographer, she

8:34

photographs him endlessly and she'd always make

8:36

him dress up with sort of

8:38

a crown on and shove him in a boat

8:40

and make him, you know, kind of lance a

8:42

lot. Then somebody else would be giving him a

8:45

sword and he'd be the lady of

8:48

the lake and King Arthur. And

8:50

he had that fantastic sort of

8:52

Leonine Victorian look, which

8:54

I think very much appealed to a Queen Victoria

8:56

who, as we know, was someone who

8:59

appreciated a good looking chap. Yeah. You

9:02

know what? I just found a quote actually

9:04

between, from her about him. She's

9:07

recalling to John Brown's

9:09

brother what he meant

9:11

to her. His name's Hugh Brown.

9:13

And after he dies, she says,

9:16

he had pledged to care for her

9:18

until he died. He had said, and

9:20

she quotes this, you haven't a more

9:23

devoted servant than Brown. And Victoria

9:25

said afterwards, so often I told him no one loved

9:27

him more than I did or had a better friend

9:29

than me. And he answered, nor

9:31

you than me. No one

9:34

loves you more. So, you

9:36

know, that's from her hand, from

9:38

her pen, which also

9:40

enraged the, you know, her staff. Like,

9:42

what the hell? Who let him in?

9:45

What Private I would call Sir Alan Fitz Titley

9:48

gets upset by this.

9:50

There is somebody though who is able to cheer

9:53

her even though, you know, she's lost Brown. By

9:55

the way, she has a

9:57

life-size statue of a Moratian in the grounds of

9:59

Valmora. It's like statues

10:01

of him start popping up everywhere. It

10:04

really pisses off her son Edward who,

10:06

you know, quite understandably, it's like, he's

10:08

a gilly, he led a pony around.

10:10

What are you doing, mother? This is

10:12

so embarrassing. But nevertheless, she does. But

10:15

you know, somebody else she's utterly charmed

10:17

with is Israeli, who is her

10:19

prime minister. It's everything that Gladstone is not.

10:21

So, you know, what does she

10:23

say about Gladstone, William, remind us? That

10:25

talking to him is like being addressed

10:27

as a public meeting. Yes. So,

10:30

whereas he's really formal, by the way, he finds

10:32

her just as insufferable. He writes very many rude

10:34

things about her. What did he say? Oh, God,

10:36

there was something where he said just spending one

10:39

day in her company is like a lifetime. I'm

10:41

sort of writing about the torches of having to

10:43

go and talk to him. You know, he knows

10:45

she doesn't like him and he doesn't particularly like

10:47

James Lear, but it is really revels in it

10:50

because he's a charming man. He's read books. He

10:52

knows poetry. Writes books. Writes books. He's

10:55

a caterer and he's a lover and he's all those

10:57

things. I mean, he's not

10:59

sort of her usual type. He's not sort of

11:01

statuesque and gili-esque and he's not sort of like

11:03

built like John Brown, but he

11:05

is somebody who knows how to make her

11:07

happy. And it's under Israeli, is it not,

11:10

that this idea is floated, that

11:13

she should become Empress of India.

11:15

Tell us a bit more about that because

11:17

that's a massive deal, her becoming Empress of

11:19

India. So it's a confusion at

11:22

the beginning of it because she's not

11:24

sure whether she is officially Empress of

11:26

India or not anyway. Obviously,

11:28

she thinks she is already. Tell us about

11:30

that. It's a great story.

11:33

So obviously, the British have by

11:35

the stage conquered India by the sword

11:38

and by the bayonet, reconquered

11:41

it again in 1857, putting down

11:43

the great uprising, the mutiny.

11:47

And she is regarded as the

11:49

successor to the moguls in India.

11:52

And she has to

11:54

write a letter or rather her secretary writes a

11:56

letter in January 1873 saying,

11:58

hi. am an Empress

12:01

in common conversation and I'm sometimes

12:03

called Empress of India. Why

12:05

then have I never officially assumed this title?

12:07

Which is a reasonable question that she obviously

12:09

did have an empire and it wasn't like

12:11

the Victorians to play down such things. No,

12:14

but she also says, I feel I ought

12:16

to do so and wish to have preliminary

12:19

inquiries made. Thank you very much from Victoria.

12:21

And this lands on Disraeli's desk. So

12:23

Disraeli immediately latches onto this and knows

12:26

how to charm his monarch

12:28

in no uncertain way. And

12:30

in 1876, he

12:33

felt he could no longer block Victoria from

12:35

this. She became the Empress of the Jew

12:37

and the Empire's crown. And

12:39

she, grateful for being

12:41

elevated by Disraeli, gave him a

12:43

peerage in return. So it's rather

12:45

like, again, today, everyone's doing each

12:47

other favours. Yeah. Well, she

12:49

likes him. I mean, she's so grateful. She describes

12:52

Disraeli as one of the kindest, truest and best

12:54

friends and wisest counsellors she ever had. I

12:57

mean, particularly because she gave

12:59

her what she wanted, which is his grand

13:01

title. We should perhaps give a pen

13:03

portrait, any to of Disraeli, for those who

13:05

don't know who he is. Well,

13:07

yes. I mean, the only Jewish prime minister

13:10

that Britain has ever had. I

13:12

think he was officially during his

13:14

prime ministership an Anglican, but then

13:16

was heard on his deathbed saying

13:18

the last Jewish prayers. And so

13:20

I think he was forced by

13:22

the law to suppress his Jewish

13:24

faith. Are you saying he's a

13:27

pretend, a pretend not Jewish? A

13:29

pretend not Jewish, but was very,

13:31

his name was very Jewish. Benjamin.

13:34

Very Jewish. And he made no

13:36

secret of his Jewishness. But I think

13:39

for legal reasons, he had to

13:41

pretend to be an Anglican while he was prime minister. Yeah,

13:44

he really did know how to handle her though.

13:46

When he talked about talking to Queen Victoria, he

13:48

says that everyone likes flattery, but when it comes

13:51

to royalty, you should lay it

13:53

on with a trowel. He certainly did do that. He

13:55

was certainly very Jewish. Is that a quote? Yeah,

13:57

the quote is a quote. didn't

14:00

know that phrase existed in the Victorian

14:02

period. Apparently so. Apparently so. And she also

14:04

liked him as well. You know, the Tories of

14:06

which he was one, they had the Primrose League.

14:09

And when he won the election, she sent him

14:11

a bunch of primroses from Windsor, from Windsor. Yes.

14:13

So you know, she was, you're not meant to

14:15

have any kind of political affiliation,

14:17

but she certainly had a fondness

14:19

at Israeli. Anyway, so she's Empress

14:21

of India, she's declared Empress

14:23

of India, and there's going to be

14:25

a massive party that's thrown for this, which

14:27

is going to be called the Doba

14:30

celebration on the 1st of January 1877. And

14:33

that is a major, I mean, I

14:35

can't stress what a big show

14:38

this is going to be. So this

14:40

is held in Delhi, to the

14:42

north of Old Delhi. And there

14:44

is a vast reams

14:46

of scholarship being written about it,

14:48

because this is a kind of

14:50

formal assumption by the British

14:53

monarchy of the tradition

14:55

of the moguls. They erect a

14:57

pavilion that is built in the

14:59

mogul style. And remember, this is

15:01

only 20 years after

15:04

every last mogul prince was hunted down

15:06

and hung after 1857. And the

15:10

last Emperor, Bahr Shah Zafo, is

15:12

exiled to die in Burma. And

15:14

here 20 years later, in Delhi,

15:16

the city of the moguls, the

15:18

city which represented

15:20

the years of Muslim

15:23

Imperium in India, in

15:25

the Delhi Doba of 1877,

15:28

she is publicly proclaimed Empress

15:30

of India. And there are

15:32

two successive Doba's that follow,

15:34

1903 and 1911. And

15:37

these become even larger and

15:39

more ostentatious occasions. So the

15:41

massive Doba is the Delhi

15:44

Doba of 1911, which

15:47

is actually graced by King George V

15:50

and Queen Mary. And that happens on

15:52

the site now known as Coronation Park

15:54

to the north of Delhi, which, in

15:57

the time that I've lived in that city has

15:59

become sort of a absorbed within the expanding

16:01

outskirts of the city. But when I

16:03

first went there in

16:05

the 80s and 90s, Coronation Park

16:07

was this strange, echoing monument

16:10

to the end of empire with these

16:12

viceroys who'd been moved from prominent positions

16:14

and roundabouts in the middle of Delhi,

16:17

got moved after independence

16:19

into a kind of semi-circle around the

16:21

statue of the king emperor. And what

16:23

was quite amusing was that a lot

16:25

of the viceroy's statues erected

16:27

for these dervas and as other

16:30

times were done by

16:32

public subscription and some were popular and

16:34

got done in marble, but some never

16:36

had more than

16:38

enough money raised for them to be made of

16:40

sort of plaster of Paris. And these are terribly

16:43

decayed by the time that I got there in

16:45

the 80s and looked rather

16:47

like sort of lepers or people with

16:49

terrible scruffiness diseases. But it's

16:51

at this moment, if you like, in

16:53

1877, in the

16:55

city of the Mughal emperors, the

16:59

British monarchy assumes,

17:01

absorbs or appropriates,

17:03

if you like, the forms

17:06

of the Mughals and the sense

17:08

of gathering the Mughals in an

17:10

Indian dervas. So it's a strange

17:13

act of claiming that we are

17:15

the successors of this imperial power.

17:17

We're something familiar to you, but this is how

17:19

we run the place and you'll be familiar and you're in

17:21

charge. And you might be familiar with the way in

17:23

which way. Is this the one? I mean,

17:26

do they start with the gun salute thing from this very

17:28

first dervas? Because I know of it in the Curzon d'Ebar.

17:30

Is that right? I don't know. I'm

17:32

not sure. I mean, certainly in dervas that follow. You're

17:34

right. I mean, certainly in the

17:36

Curzon d'Ebar, every prince has to turn up

17:39

with his retinue and has his own tent.

17:41

They're all photographed by Samuel Bourne and there's

17:43

these famous albums that you occasionally see

17:46

in museums and galleries of the different

17:48

dervas. And every prince has his own

17:51

number from, is it 51, which I

17:53

think the Zama Hydroban has or the

17:55

Maharaj of Kashmir, down to

17:57

one or two for the Gulf

18:00

states, remember the Gulf states, places like

18:02

Dubai and what's

18:04

now the UAE are still part of

18:07

the Indian Princely Federation and they have

18:09

to turn up all the

18:11

way from the Gulf. So, and

18:14

these guns are these, you know, the more

18:16

bangs you have, bangs for your buck, the

18:18

more important you are, certainly during the curves

18:20

and ones. So, you know, you're setting the

18:22

template. No, this is a permanent thing during the Raj and

18:24

there's a huge snobbery about, are you

18:27

a 51 gunner or a 21 gunner or just

18:29

a one gunner or none. And

18:31

I think the now

18:34

very grand and much courted shakes

18:36

of Dubai were no gun salutes

18:39

as opposed to some now

18:41

completely penniless Indian Maharajas who

18:44

had multiple gun salutes. From

18:46

there, you've sort of got this, again, a

18:49

reinforcement of the connection of Queen Victoria to

18:51

India because Empress of India is a title

18:53

that means a lot to her and you

18:56

heard the gratitude that she has to

18:58

Benjamin Disraeli for giving her finally the

19:00

title that she's been using anyway, by

19:02

the way, for quite some time. But

19:05

this is also the time when

19:08

she starts to entertain Indian servants.

19:10

Again, a problem for her

19:13

retinue. So really from June

19:15

1887, two Indian Muslims

19:18

come to work in her household in Britain

19:20

because again, remember, you know, this closeness, this

19:22

affinity she has to India, she will never

19:24

go to India, she will never see it

19:26

with her own eyes. So India has to

19:28

come to her bit by bit by bit.

19:31

We've talked about Dilip Singh. She also was

19:33

a godmother to an Indian princess called Gurama

19:36

of Kurg. We've talked about her previously.

19:38

So Gurama of Kurg, again, is one

19:40

of these dispossessed Indian Maharajas

19:43

who gives over his daughter saying look

19:45

after her thinking it will carry favour

19:47

and he might get his land back.

19:49

He doesn't get his land back and

19:51

she dies horribly after being married.

19:53

She sort of runs off herself. She's flighty

19:55

and is a little too

19:58

liberated for anybody's taste in their life. Royal

20:00

Court of Victoria and she ends up

20:02

running off with actually the guardian of

20:04

Doodeep Singh's brother who is a right-off

20:06

sod who basically leaves her pregnant and

20:08

then runs off again and so she

20:10

sort of dies very young in pregnancy.

20:12

It's all hideous for poor old Gurama

20:14

of Korg but by 1887 she

20:17

takes on Indian servants so it's

20:19

not sort of these deposed princes

20:21

and princesses but these people

20:23

to work with her. So again I

20:25

think she quite enjoys having the deposed

20:28

princes and princesses around. It is

20:30

like a kind of mini bar of

20:32

minor royalty. Yeah and she has a

20:35

lot of her tastes that are inspired by them when

20:37

Doodeep comes. You know a lot of the photographs at

20:39

Osborne and the sketches at Osborne are inspired by those

20:41

visits by him to Osborne. You

20:43

know her taste for curry. She loved a curry.

20:45

We talked about this in our curry mini series.

20:48

She liked the spices of India.

20:51

It's on the menu whether people eat

20:53

it or not every single lunchtime from

20:55

this period. So we should talk about two of

20:57

the servants in particular. One in particular,

20:59

let's talk about Abdul Karim the 24-year-old

21:01

from Lalitpur who's been working

21:04

as a clerk in Agra jail

21:06

of all places and he sort

21:08

of somehow comes to England and

21:10

ends up working for the Royal

21:12

Retinue. It's wonderfully random that exactly.

21:15

He's pretty again when he was sort of

21:17

24 years old and he catches the eye

21:19

of Queen Victoria and her children are pretty

21:21

scandalous. They've just got over, bloody John Brown

21:24

has gone and all the gossip and the

21:26

nonsense surrounding John Brown. They can't

21:28

bear that. As far as the

21:30

Bobbus Court is concerned, it can't get worse. Oh

21:32

yes it can. Oh yes it can because

21:34

here is Abdul Karim and

21:37

he's sort of affectionately given the

21:39

title. Is it by

21:42

the retinue or Queen Victoria? I can't remember who exactly but

21:44

he's called the Munshi. That's his nickname which means clerk.

21:46

I think I mean that's his title. Yeah

21:49

Munshi means exactly. Means clerk or teacher

21:51

and he teaches old. I mean

21:53

he's given the title with that as a video.

21:55

Yes it was his official title and he does.

21:57

She wants to take Roodhu lessons so she writes

21:59

in her journal. and you see examples of

22:01

her practicing. And she writes, I am learning

22:03

a few words of Hindustani to speak to

22:05

my servants. It is a great interest to

22:08

me for both the language and the people

22:10

I've naturally never come into real contact with

22:12

before. And he gives her

22:14

lessons, he tells her about his childhood.

22:16

He also very much overakes who he

22:19

is and makes himself sound a lot

22:21

grander. He allows it to be known

22:23

that he says, yes, this very fancy

22:25

sort of almost Maharaja or something. And

22:28

it turns out, as you say, he's just working

22:30

at the table. Yeah. And

22:32

you know, her courtiers cannot wait to tell her that

22:34

he's a liar. He's a liar and

22:36

he has too much control over you by half.

22:38

You need to really see him for what he

22:40

is. He's a chancer. Let's get rid of him.

22:43

But the more they talk him down, again, this is a

22:45

woman who will not have it, you

22:47

know, just as before, she will not have

22:49

it. And the attacks on the

22:52

Munshi, they basically just make her closer

22:54

to him. Henry Ponsonby, who is the

22:56

closest to his private secretary to the Queen, is

22:59

utterly in despair. And

23:02

he so hates the Munshi. He

23:04

cannot believe how much he hates

23:06

it. The advance of the Black

23:08

Brigade, he writes in brackets, Kareem,

23:10

is a serious nuisance. I was

23:12

afraid that opposition would intensify her

23:14

desire to advance further. Progression

23:17

by antagonism, she says. Kareem is

23:19

given John Brown's old room. His

23:22

portrait was painted against a background of

23:24

gold. In October 1889, Victoria

23:27

has taken him up to the remote

23:29

cottage, Plathalt Sheil in Balmoral, despite

23:32

having sworn she would never spend

23:34

another night there after Brown died.

23:36

She frequently gave him trinkets of

23:38

appreciation, which again, drove her son

23:41

in particular. Absolutely

23:43

frantic. Completely. So what are

23:45

you doing, Mother? Mother, what are

23:48

you doing? And we should say at

23:50

this point, we should give a quick. Call

23:53

out for our wonderful friend, Shrabini

23:55

Basu. Oh, yes, wonderful. And in

23:57

one of the great works of.

24:00

detective work, literary

24:02

tracking down, our friend Shabadi,

24:04

who's from Kolkata but now

24:06

based in London, went

24:08

to Agra and found the

24:11

tomb of the Munshi and

24:13

then worked backwards, asked the people in the

24:15

cemetery, does he have any relations? And they

24:17

said yes, just down the road, turn left.

24:20

So she goes and knocks on their door,

24:22

literally blind, having not known they existed more

24:25

than an hour before. And

24:28

she asks the

24:30

family, have you got anything from the

24:32

Munshi? And they say, of course, we've got

24:35

a great chest full of stuff, all his letters and

24:37

her replies. An

24:40

extraordinary find, one that you salivate over the prospect.

24:42

And she's such a nice woman, this could not

24:44

happen. By the way, this Shabni is such a

24:46

brilliant woman. I would normally resent

24:48

and hate her for this, because she's

24:50

so nice. I can only feel delighted

24:52

for her. So this is the basis

24:55

for the book Victoria and Abdul that

24:57

became the brilliant Stephen Freer's film. But

24:59

for those who have only seen the film and

25:01

not read the book, we strongly recommend

25:04

that you go and get it because it's

25:06

going to be available on our club. And

25:08

it's one of the great, I mean, it's

25:10

what exactly what Anita and I would kill

25:12

to find a

25:14

trunk literally overflowing with

25:18

astonishing documents that everyone has seemed to have

25:20

gone. Because after the Munshi

25:22

is kicked out and would come to that

25:24

in a second, everything of his is removed from

25:26

the official archives. Well, let's not let's not

25:28

jump ahead to that. Because while he's there, you

25:30

know, there is a theft. There is a theft

25:32

that takes place and everybody's finger points at the

25:34

Munshi. And the person who most stoically

25:37

defends him is Victoria, who will not

25:39

have it. To the point, she's so

25:41

angry that anyone should impugn her loyal

25:43

servant, that her royal physician, a guy

25:45

called Dr. Reed, he's going to be

25:47

very important at the end of her

25:49

life because he's a talker. He has

25:51

blabbered in places where people should not.

25:53

So we know a lot more

25:55

about Victoria's death than perhaps we should. But

25:58

he says that she's quite off her head. Really?

26:00

The words he uses, off her head when

26:02

it comes to the munchi. I wonder

26:04

what that meant in Victorian times. Well I think

26:06

much the same. Off her head today for you

26:08

and I means that someone's been smoking some weed

26:11

or something. Or nuts, isn't it? I mean I

26:13

would always think of it as just completely not in

26:15

possession of your senses. But in

26:17

1897 Henry Ponsonby again who is

26:19

very sort of straight-laced and loyal

26:22

and deeply responsible

26:24

loyal servants to Queen Victoria

26:26

rights. We have been having

26:28

a good deal of trouble lately about the munchi

26:31

here and though we've tried our best we cannot

26:33

get the Queen to realise how very dangerous it

26:35

is for her to allow this man to see

26:37

every confidential paper relating to India. The Queen insists

26:39

on bringing the munchi forward as much as she

26:42

can and if it were not for our

26:44

protest I don't know where she would stop.

26:46

Fortunately he happens to be a thoroughly

26:48

stupid and uneducated man and his one

26:50

idea in life seems to do nothing and

26:53

eat as much as he can. The

26:56

reference to the curries at lunch.

26:59

Well I mean look no matter what anybody

27:02

said she wanted to be with her Indian

27:04

servants and there's a really interesting reason for

27:06

that. If you look at her diary entries

27:08

the reason I mean she's by this time

27:11

you know she's old and she's frail. She's

27:13

been sort of dilapidated by grief but also

27:15

by constant childbirth. Having nine children has taken

27:17

a terrible toll on her and she sent

27:20

a lot of pain. This is a woman

27:22

who is in pain. Later we

27:24

will learn that you know she's probably

27:26

suffering from a prolapsed uterus apart from

27:28

anything else and these gynaecological conditions which are

27:31

not well treated in those days and which

27:33

a Queen might shy away from telling a

27:35

male physician about. She has suffered and she

27:37

likes the Indian servants because they don't in

27:39

her words pinch her when they pick her

27:41

up. They are the most gentle when they

27:43

move her from room to room. They know

27:45

how to be kind

27:47

she says. We should say

27:50

very importantly and something that Shrabini

27:53

found in this trunk in Agra she

27:55

learns Urdu from him. She feels she

27:57

should learn Urdu and she's good at

27:59

language. She learnt from German when she's

28:01

very young and she's completely fluent in Booth.

28:04

And she makes, Shrabni tells me, very good

28:07

progress and that there are Udu

28:09

writing books in this trunk by Queen

28:11

Victoria, which are pretty fluent

28:13

Udu. Yeah, not bad. Not bad. Shrabni

28:16

was quite impressed actually by the progress. So

28:19

she was sick by him and

28:21

actually she was sick by him

28:23

even after death. I mean,

28:25

you can tell that story now because we're going

28:27

to come towards the end of Queen Victoria's life,

28:30

but just before we dispense with the Munshi story,

28:32

even after death, why they try and throw him

28:34

out the day after she dies, don't they, from

28:37

his home? So one of

28:39

the pieces of ammunition that

28:41

the courtiers have against Abdul

28:43

Karim is that he has

28:45

gone arreared. He had gone to Dr.

28:48

Reid with a worrying complaint

28:50

and Reid diagnoses this as

28:52

gone arrear and immediately

28:54

says that he must be removed from the

28:56

Queen's presence. Even then, the Queen will not

28:58

listen. It's

29:00

unclear how far they actually made it

29:02

explicit what she'd done, but they certainly

29:05

say that he was

29:07

dishonest and promiscuous, I think was the charge

29:09

that was made against him. Anyway,

29:11

so look, it's time to take a break after the break. Let's

29:14

find out. I mean, we're sort of coming to the end

29:16

of a very great life, but

29:18

not before we have not one, but two

29:21

important Jubilee celebrations again, which remind

29:23

us of Victoria's place in the

29:25

world and her empire. I'm

29:36

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29:38

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29:41

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29:43

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29:47

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back. So

31:34

the date is now 1887. Victoria,

31:39

age 68, and now the familiar

31:42

figure we know in her widow's

31:44

weeds with the veil, pretty

31:47

old and quite plump, has

31:49

to celebrate her golden jubilee,

31:51

celebrating her being in power

31:53

for no less than 50

31:55

years. Anita, tell us the

31:57

story. Well, I mean, this is again, something that's been a

31:59

big deal. where she is doing it for

32:01

the public faith. And it sort of

32:03

is a template that is followed even

32:05

to this day, this great pageantry. For

32:08

a while she's been missing, but now boy is she

32:10

back in a big way. She rides in

32:12

an open top carriage down the mall. She's

32:14

escorted by troops of Indian cavalry. That's

32:16

what she insists on that. There are

32:18

Union Jacks waving all over

32:21

the place. Huge fireworks display in

32:23

the evening, which London oohs and

32:25

ahhs about. There's a firework, I

32:27

mean, this could be also contemporary,

32:29

a firework portrait of Victoria, 180 feet high

32:31

and 200 feet wide. And

32:35

she's presented, you know, great

32:37

ostentation, this commemorative necklace of pearls

32:40

and diamonds, donated by, and it

32:42

says here, three million daughters of

32:45

the empire. I find that really fascinating, like

32:47

donated by whom and how and when and

32:49

how and why. But this is what

32:51

happens. And it's a

32:54

public event. She does it, she

32:56

goes through it, but you know privately, she

32:58

knows it's more of a duty than a pleasure. There

33:00

are times when she enjoys this front-facing stuff, and as

33:02

she gets older and she gets, you know, things are

33:05

more painful for her body, to be honest. She

33:07

says, I don't want or like

33:10

flattery, she says to her journal. That

33:12

sounds very sort of a duty dutch,

33:15

doesn't it? I don't want or like

33:17

flattery. But Lord Halifax has insisted

33:19

to her in his words or in

33:21

her words, that the public needs gilding

33:23

for their money, basically bang for their

33:25

buck. They need to know what is

33:27

the monarchy for. And these

33:29

public displays are her

33:32

show, putting on a show. So

33:34

these celebrations, they do show the popularity

33:36

of the queen and the

33:38

royal family. It's interesting, I mean, I always

33:40

sort of assumed without looking at it closely,

33:43

that the Victorian period was the high point

33:45

of monarchy. But as we've seen in these

33:47

four episodes, it goes up and down. Yeah,

33:50

absolutely goes up and down. And they have to fight

33:52

for it. They have to fight to get it back.

33:54

They lose it, and they have to fight to get

33:56

it back. Not once, not twice, and numerous times during

33:58

the Victorian era. The spectators... anyway during

34:00

the Golden Jubilee says you know

34:02

the public's attitude to the Queen

34:04

has changed it acknowledges the roller-coaster

34:06

ride a change indescribable says the

34:08

spectator but unmistakable an increase of

34:11

kindliness and affection but a decrease

34:13

of all is how they put

34:15

it it was a friend

34:17

of all who was welcomed rather than

34:19

a great sovereign so she's kind of

34:22

moved to dare I say Queen of

34:24

Hearts status you know princess of the

34:26

people we may have had with Diana

34:28

but here we have you know the

34:30

Queen rather than somebody that you genuflect in

34:32

front of it's something that you actually love

34:34

and if you think of it it's very

34:36

much the Victoria of this period that you

34:38

see in the statues

34:41

and in the photographs when

34:43

we think of Victoria it

34:45

is the Victoria of her

34:47

Jubilee she is that old

34:49

widow large somber and curvaceous

34:51

that's being depicted it's not the young Queen

34:53

that we see there are images of the

34:55

young Queen but far more prominent

34:58

certainly in India are these endless

35:00

images of Victoria at

35:02

this period in old

35:04

age as this old familiar

35:06

monarch absolutely and why don't we just

35:09

actually jump forward I mean that a lot happens

35:11

in between but I think I think

35:13

we're on to something talking about Jubilee

35:15

so the diamond Jubilee I think is

35:17

even more notable because on the 23rd

35:19

of September 1896 Victoria

35:21

becomes the longest reigning English monarch and

35:24

she just notes it this is how

35:26

the difference between you know sort of

35:28

your private life and your

35:30

public persona she has become that person who

35:32

does it you know in previous times you've

35:34

had kings of England who when they are

35:36

pissed off they raise taxes or

35:38

you know whatever whatever the precious nature or

35:40

whatever they're experiencing the day is reflected in

35:42

the way that they rule but there is

35:44

now a duality what you

35:47

feel and what you do so in

35:49

her journal when she goes through this milestone you

35:51

know she notes it and then she insists that

35:53

any celebrations wait a year because it's just too

35:56

costly she doesn't want to spend that much money

35:58

and let's just do it with the diamond Jubilee,

36:00

which is coming a year later. But

36:02

what's really, really interesting, so she is

36:04

77 at the time

36:07

of the Diamond Jubilee, that's right, isn't it?

36:09

77 years of age. And she's thinking about

36:11

her own mortality. You know, she's, by the

36:13

way, life expectancy in those days is only

36:15

47. Did you know that?

36:18

I didn't know that, 47.

36:20

47, I looked it up. And most of

36:22

her friends, most of the people that she's

36:24

cared for are dead. They're the people that

36:27

she's loved in her life or enjoyed their

36:29

company. So she is lonely. She's old. Her

36:31

body is in pain, which is why she

36:33

appreciates the kindnesses of her Indian

36:36

servants. But before we get to the

36:38

Jubilee, what's going on in her internal mind, this sort of, you

36:40

know, what you show the world and what's going on inside. In

36:42

December 1897, this is three

36:44

years before she will die, she

36:46

dictates her confidential private instruction for

36:49

her burial, which she says

36:51

should always be carried by the most senior

36:53

person traveling with her, opened only upon her

36:55

death. And can I just

36:57

say this is the brilliant work, you know, talk

36:59

about Sharabneh Bass's brilliant work, the magnificent work of

37:02

Julia Baird, who discovered all of this and had

37:04

quite a tuffle with the Royal Archives and the

37:06

Palace because they did not want her to make

37:08

it public. And they tried to stop

37:11

her. They said, look, you know, if you're going to

37:13

use stuff in the Royal Archive, we'd really rather you

37:15

didn't use the Dr. Reid archive, which she goes and

37:17

tracks down. Dr. Reid is a physician. And she actually

37:19

says, no, I'm doing it anyway, like

37:21

a plucky journalist should. It makes such

37:23

a good read. And I'm so glad

37:25

that she did. So the instructions in

37:27

the Reid archive are really very, very

37:30

detailed. She has a long list of objects

37:32

she wants placed in her coffin. And this

37:34

is three years before she dies. Okay. This

37:36

is when the world is sort of at

37:38

its peak of celebrating Victoria, the Diamond Jubilee

37:40

year. And what she says is, on

37:42

her hands, she wants five rings from Albert as

37:44

well as rings from a field

37:47

or a friend from her mother, from

37:50

Victoria Louise and Beatrice, so children. She

37:52

also wanted a plain golden wedding ring

37:54

that had belonged to the mother of

37:56

John Brown, whom Sheen described in effusive

37:58

terms Brown had the ring for

38:00

a short time, she said, but Victoria had worn

38:03

it constantly since his death and wished to be

38:05

buried with it on her hand. The

38:07

finger was not specified. The Queen also

38:09

requested that framed photographs of Albert and

38:11

all her children and grandchildren be put

38:13

in the coffin. She wanted, as

38:15

she explained in detail, a coloured photograph of John

38:18

Brown in profile to be placed in a leather

38:20

case with some locks of his hair along with

38:22

other photographs of him, which she had carefully carried

38:24

in her pocket and placed in her hand. She

38:26

asked for a cast, that cast of Albert's hand.

38:28

Do you remember I told you that she slept

38:31

with it by her bed so she could hold

38:33

it at night and hold it in the morning.

38:35

She'd kept it near her all her life. She

38:37

wanted that to be put in the coffin as

38:39

well. She wanted one of Albert's handkerchiefs and cloaks,

38:41

a shawl made by Alice, and she wrote a

38:44

pocket handkerchief of my faithful Brown, that

38:46

friend who was most devoted to

38:48

me than anyone to be laid

38:50

on me. And look, we'll

38:52

get to the funeral and see whether they did it or not in

38:54

the moment. But this is the year of

38:56

the Diamond Jubilee that she is

38:58

thinking about her death. Anyway, cut

39:00

the Diamond Jubilee, okay? She's sitting

39:02

in her carriage again outside St

39:04

Paul's. She can't manage

39:06

the steps now. She can't really walk.

39:09

She's pretty much carried everywhere. There's a

39:11

short Thanksgiving service. Thousands have packed the

39:13

streets of London to celebrate. And

39:16

this event is just linked to Empire. It's

39:18

front and centre of the celebration. Do you

39:20

want to pick up? Yes. Empire

39:23

is now, since the Great Exhibition,

39:25

very much part of the Victoria

39:27

package. She is seen not just

39:29

as the Queen of England, but

39:31

very much now as the Empress

39:33

of India. And part of that

39:35

window dressing, if you like, is

39:38

Indian and other colonial soldiers lining

39:41

the route of the procession. And

39:43

so this is very much a statement now

39:45

at this point in her reign. She's not

39:47

just the Queen of England, but Empress of

39:50

India and the centrepiece

39:52

of the British Emperor. There's

39:54

a lovely bit in the Daily Mail, have you seen it?

39:56

It says, until we saw it passing through the streets of

39:58

our city, we never quite realized what empire

40:01

meant from the Daily

40:03

Mail. And it adds breathlessly, only gods surpass

40:05

the Queen in majesty, but they don't realize

40:07

either how close she is to death. She's

40:09

the only one, it seems, who sort of

40:11

realizes how close she is to death with

40:14

all of these instructions. But anyway,

40:16

she will sort of limp on

40:18

for three more years where her

40:21

family, you know, she sort of almost pulls

40:23

away. As she crosses into the

40:25

new 20th century. Yes, she does. She absolutely

40:27

does. She's such a figure of the 19th century, but

40:29

she makes it into the 20th. She

40:31

does withdraw a little bit. She's very judgmental of her

40:33

son and heir, the future King

40:36

Edward, Bertie, as he's called by the

40:38

household. She doesn't really want to

40:40

see him. Well,

40:43

he's been frivolous in his life. She's not

40:45

very fond of Alex's wife, Queen

40:47

Alexandra, to be. She finds her

40:50

sort of a pushy princess, and she just thinks

40:52

he's a bit bossy. And he's been horribly

40:54

rude about John Brown and horribly rude about them,

40:56

isn't she? And so they've got,

40:58

you know, terrible gulf between them. And she

41:01

just finds him just annoying. She just wants

41:03

him to be away. The daughter that she

41:05

likes is very ill, Vicky. Is there

41:07

a sense, do you think, that because

41:09

she was educated alone, and

41:12

because she was never part of

41:14

a class of schoolmates at a

41:16

posh school, that it's

41:18

interesting that her two big confidence at

41:21

the end, both John Brown and the

41:23

military, are not from her class. They're

41:25

not, you know, the posh, aristos that

41:28

you'd expect a queen to surround herself

41:30

with. Maybe. But I think there's

41:32

even more than that, which is why it's so

41:34

important to look into the hinterland of a person.

41:36

The person she most detested in her younger life

41:38

was John Conroy, who told her

41:40

what to do, and told her

41:42

how to do it. And her mother who

41:45

bossed her around, she cannot stand

41:47

that. She can't stand anyone trying

41:49

to sort of pull her strings, either

41:51

by, you know, subterfuge or just completely openly

41:54

telling her what to do, which is what

41:56

Bertie Hassan does. So she does withdraw.

41:58

We should talk about the

42:00

end because we're coming to the end

42:03

of her life. So she dies, Queen

42:05

Victoria dies on the evening of the

42:07

22nd of January 1901. Some say her

42:09

last words were

42:11

oh Albert, age 81,

42:14

but I've heard other things that said that

42:16

she was too weak to talk. Why would

42:18

she say that? It's been improbable. Did

42:20

she see his sort of ghost walk

42:22

into the room? What's the idea? Also

42:24

when you just see those words, the way I

42:27

read them was oh Albert. I

42:29

don't know if

42:31

some things are. They just sound a little

42:33

too good. But what we

42:35

do know is that she does want people to

42:38

stay away from her. She sort of keeps even

42:41

Bertie away from her until the last minute

42:43

and then he is allowed to come and

42:45

see her. She just doesn't want to be

42:47

hectic towards the end. She doesn't want her

42:49

pushy Kaiser Wilhelm coming over and cluttering up

42:51

the place with his sobbing and stuff because

42:53

she just doesn't trust in that. So

42:55

she gives very strict instructions that

42:58

things should be quiet and calm. And

43:00

the doctor, Dr. Reid, is constantly

43:03

feeding information out as she's sinking.

43:05

The Queen is slowly sinking, he

43:07

writes, and that is sent

43:09

out from Osborne House. And you've got a

43:12

whole nation sort of like very quiet and

43:14

waiting. At the end she's in Osborne, is

43:16

she? She's in the Isle of Wight. She is, yeah.

43:18

That explains why Tennyson is around at this point in

43:20

her life because Tennyson also of course lives. Well,

43:22

it's sort of a latter-day friend of

43:25

hers. She has her

43:27

female attendance with her,

43:30

but she's missing the people who really know her

43:32

and love her. So there's no munching, there's no

43:34

John Brown. She's sort of surrounded by these sympathetic

43:36

faces, but none who really know her,

43:38

I think. So she's sort of lonely

43:40

in childhood and lonely at the end.

43:43

Reseeds back to the courtiers. She's spent her

43:45

life trying to avoid them anyways. And

43:47

at five o'clock you have all of these people

43:49

who are keeping the watch who drop to their

43:51

knees and the news goes out. The Queen is

43:53

dead. The Queen is dead. Arthur

43:56

Benson wrote of it at the time, it is

43:58

like the roof being off a house. to

44:00

think of England queenless and

44:03

that actually becomes a

44:06

huge sweeping sadness that

44:09

goes across Britain and indeed part of the

44:11

empress. I mean just I mean

44:13

have you seen some of the stuff that

44:15

came out from India at the time like

44:17

real outpouring so I mean Miles Taylor's really

44:19

good on this these great sappy eulogies yeah.

44:22

This is so counterintuitive because certainly

44:25

the India which I live in now not only

44:28

is not interested in

44:30

Queen Victoria it's actively hostile and

44:32

all the statues of Victoria with

44:34

I think the one exception of

44:37

the Victoria Memorial in Kolkata. We've

44:39

seen it you're absolutely right yeah. And

44:41

yet there's no question that there is this

44:43

massive cult of her at the time whether

44:45

competitive trying to show you're more loyal than

44:47

the next in the aftermath of the massacres

44:50

of 1857 trying to get

44:52

on with in with the colonial regime but

44:54

that everyone is falling over themselves. Sugary

44:56

sugary prose written about her you know describing

44:59

her as like a divine goddess in some

45:01

cases. I mean when you look at it

45:03

now with these eyes it's all a bit

45:05

odd but some of the things really interesting

45:07

about her funeral I mean she's sort of

45:09

gifted instruction about apart from all the things

45:12

three years ago that she says she

45:14

wants buried with her family to honor them

45:16

but they sort of conceal the picture of

45:18

John Brown that's in her left hand with

45:20

a posy of flowers they don't want anyone

45:22

to see it. Her wedding ring is placed

45:24

on one finger and all the other bits

45:26

of jewelry that were meaningful they're all

45:28

included in that. There's a lovely line

45:30

of Miles Taylor. Well it's

45:33

that's that's towards the end so

45:35

persistent were Indian memorialists to the government

45:37

of India that they frequently had to

45:39

change the rules of direct communication with

45:41

the Queen says to limit the traffic.

45:44

At times it seemed as though

45:46

fusions of Indian loyalty did not

45:48

require encouragement so much as containment.

45:51

That's interesting isn't it. But one of the really interesting

45:53

things about her death is she didn't want black at

45:55

her funeral she wanted to be dressed in white and

45:57

she wanted everything to be white. So just to. She

46:00

starts this trend of being married in

46:02

white. She wants white simplicity. Her funeral

46:04

was held on the 2nd of February.

46:06

She's laid to rest beside Prince Albert

46:08

in the Royal More Britishduke

46:18

and during that reign, I mean

46:21

think back upon it, William, you know

46:23

you've seen the ring

46:25

fencing of the British monarchy as

46:27

a constitutional one. You've seen Victoria

46:30

still attempting to influence politics and foreign

46:32

policy, especially when it comes to India,

46:34

an empire with all of the stuff

46:36

that she says to Canning and others.

46:39

You also, though, have some of the greatest

46:42

excesses of empire happening under her reign. You

46:45

have all of those sort of clashing

46:47

interests that she, you know, it's all

46:49

very confusing. On that hand she's raising

46:51

money for famine, on the other hand,

46:53

you know, under her government famine is

46:56

happening. You've got Albert presiding over anti-slavery

46:58

societies and yet a lot of people

47:00

in her name treating

47:02

Africans in their own

47:04

continent as lesser humans,

47:06

although she says no be kind.

47:09

And as we said at the

47:11

beginning, many monarchies fall at this

47:13

period to create this empire in

47:15

which the sun will never set.

47:17

It is built over

47:19

the ruins of earlier monarchies

47:22

and earlier local allegiances and

47:24

national allegiances. Her

47:26

reign marks the end of Mughal rule

47:28

after three and a half centuries.

47:31

She sees in 1857 to 8 the worst

47:36

war crimes ever committed by the

47:38

British Empire, hundreds of thousands

47:40

killed in acts of retribution across

47:43

the Gangetic Plains. But as we've

47:45

seen, she stands

47:47

for clemency and amnesty and

47:50

is recognized as such and

47:52

she tames some of the

47:54

more horrific impulses of her

47:56

colonial officers. So she's a

47:58

complicated figure. ended this

48:00

series more sympathetic to it than I

48:03

began. I've always imagined that

48:05

the kind of Judy dead-chization

48:07

of Victoria and all these

48:09

historical dramas has romanticized

48:11

her and built her into something far

48:13

more benign than she actually was. But

48:16

the more we've looked at her, the

48:18

more, in fact, she really does stand

48:20

out from her times for resisting

48:23

the enormous racial prejudice and

48:25

the enormous will to conquer

48:28

and subjugate that is

48:30

the mark of her time. So I

48:32

think if we are judging people against

48:35

their times, she comes out pretty

48:37

well. That is all from us

48:39

and this mini-series of Victoria till the

48:41

next time we meet. It's goodbye from

48:43

me, Anita Arnon. And goodbye from me, William

48:46

Grimble.