0:12

Hi, my name is Clay

0:12

Tumey And this is the Enneagram

0:15

Prison Project podcast. In this

0:15

episode, I sit down with EPP,

0:20

Ambassador Dustin Baldwin and

0:20

EPP guide, Dana Vitorelo. Just a

0:24

heads up, we talk about all

0:24

kinds of stuff. And this is not

0:29

a trigger warning, but it is

0:29

more of a heads up than anything

0:32

else that we go back and forth

0:32

between silly and serious and

0:37

everything in between. And I

0:37

don't want the serious moments

0:40

to sneak up on you. If you are

0:40

one of these folks who listens

0:44

to the podcast while you're at

0:44

the gym, or walking through the

0:47

park or anything else like that.

0:47

Listen to this, with some level

0:52

of privacy. If it helps, I'll

0:52

tell you that my 16 year old

0:55

son, I would be totally fine

0:55

with him hearing literally

0:58

anything that we discussed in

0:58

this episode. So I'm not saying

1:01

that it's not safe to listen to.

1:01

I just don't want those moments

1:04

to sneak up on you. And I don't

1:04

know, I think that's fair. I

1:07

don't usually do that. But I

1:07

would want that if I was in the

1:10

listeners shoes this time. I

1:10

don't know. I'm rambling now. I

1:14

am so stinking happy that I got

1:14

to sit down and talk with Dustin

1:18

and Dana, about their trip to

1:18

Belgium about all that all the

1:22

stuff that you're going to hear

1:22

about. So how about I just stop

1:25

rambling? And we'll get to the

1:25

episode? If nobody's told you.

1:29

I'm really glad you're here.

1:29

Thanks for being here. I mean

1:32

that it's a big deal. So thanks.

1:32

Glad you're here. Thanks for

1:36

listening. This is the Enneagram

1:36

Prison Project podcast.

1:57

My day was very

1:57

busy and full and messy. With a

2:04

lot of wet concrete and tile,

2:04

tile saws.

2:07

Quiet. Why you're so

2:07

soft right now.

2:11

I know. It's

2:11

anything I'm trying on

2:22

it is actually it's kind of I

2:22

don't know. Yeah, it's been

2:25

sitting with me since we got back

2:26

does it have a new

2:26

language to accompany it? Are

2:30

you learning French all the sudden?

2:31

I ever thought about it. Yeah, it'd be pretty cool. You did? Yeah. I think it

2:33

would be pretty cool to learn

2:36

French I think

2:37

an easy place to

2:37

start is Who the hell are you so

2:40

in whatever order you feel like

2:40

it Who Who do we have the

2:43

privilege of chatting with today?

2:45

My name is Dustin berry interview wherever you how

2:55

you doing all everybody out

3:04

there. Dustin, Type Eight

3:04

ambassador for EPP and that's

3:14

who I am today to I've been

3:14

that's who I'm really filling in

3:18

leaning into more and more of my

3:18

place and and really feeling

3:27

into my identity more and more

3:27

into that as an ambassador for

3:31

for this group for this program

3:31

that we're doing. Organization.

3:35

How long have you been an ambassador?

3:39

Well,

3:39

officially, I guess two years

3:44

now. Well, two years. Yeah. Two

3:44

Two and a half years Yeah. But I

3:48

started it way back in 2016.

3:48

That being what the whole got

3:56

invited into becoming an

3:56

ambassador in 2016 when I was in

4:03

residential program with Alex

4:03

Senegal was the the manager of

4:09

house manager and I sold out my

4:09

packet back then and had a our

4:14

two hour conversation with you

4:14

rounded and then went off to

4:19

Ellen prosa and didn't my month

4:19

long training there and then I

4:23

went back to jail because I was

4:23

still very unconscious to all my

4:29

own shit.

4:29

I've ever I've ever

4:29

fully told that story The going

4:31

back story anywhere. I have to

4:31

be I want to

4:36

why haven't other places Yeah,

4:38

but what the hell

4:38

happened? That a fair question,

4:43

by the way. Yeah.

4:44

For me, it was a

4:44

lot. It was a I think it was a

4:49

mess necessary for me to go

4:49

back. To really come aware of

4:56

all the things I've learned up

4:56

until that point. So though,

5:01

meaning, since I was 17, I was

5:01

always in and out of jail. Drug

5:08

addict, hanging around with the

5:08

wrong crowds, gangs, all that

5:12

kind of stuff, in and out, in

5:12

and out. And then this last

5:16

time, I actually did a bunch of

5:16

programs, bunch of classes on,

5:22

you know, drug treatment, and

5:22

anger management and also EPP

5:29

and so I remember, put it this

5:29

way, the worst feeling in the

5:36

world, which I realize is having

5:36

a head full of recovery and self

5:43

awareness, and then relapsing.

5:43

Like that, having all that

5:50

knowledge in you already, and

5:50

then relapse, that for me was

5:55

really kind of like, this is not

5:55

it, this is not what I want. And

6:01

so it was definitely something

6:01

that I feel needed to happen for

6:04

me to really kind of make that

6:04

connection as to the why it

6:09

happened. I think they really

6:09

just got too scary. Honestly,

6:17

like when I was out there, I was

6:17

in that I was at Alex's house.

6:21

And I had a lot of time for a

6:21

case hanging over my head that I

6:26

was looking at a long time and

6:32

no

6:34

one needs to

6:34

change afraid to change, wanting

6:38

to face everything that makes me

6:38

the way I am tick the way I

6:41

tick, but not wanting to face

6:41

it, you know, I mean, and all

6:45

that kind of stuff, but it just

6:45

built up and got to a point to

6:48

where. Okay, so the buckets?

6:48

Yeah, no, honestly, fuck it. I

6:55

don't want to deal with this right now. I don't want to face this right now. It's just too

6:56

hard. And

6:59

how long were you

6:59

out? The when you when you went

7:01

back? The 2016 ish? How long?

7:01

Were you out before you went

7:04

back?

7:06

A year? Yeah.

7:06

How long? Have you been out this

7:09

time? Coming up to us? Three

7:09

years? Three years? Yeah.

7:13

marches?

7:14

Did you? Did you ever compare the two? Because I'm not even would totally do

7:16

this. If I knew that. If I was

7:19

out like 417 days before? Like,

7:19

I would want to try to just get

7:23

to that point. Are you crazy,

7:23

like me are now I didn't even

7:26

think of that.

7:27

I didn't think

7:27

of it better. Yeah. So I mean,

7:30

like I said before, you know, in

7:30

the early 20s, and most most of

7:34

the 20s I would only be out for

7:34

a month here, two months there

7:40

and then go right back in for a

7:40

couple of months now for we go

7:43

back in Vermont, you know, so

7:43

it's just, there's just such a

7:48

crazy, chaotic waste of time and

7:48

life honestly,

7:52

what what's

7:52

different now and I want to talk

7:54

about more recent things, but

7:54

I'm, typically if I'm wondering

7:58

something in the moment, I just

7:58

assumed the listener might be

8:00

and so the thing that's bouncing

8:00

around in my head is what's

8:03

different this time?

8:06

Why are you

8:06

still out here? I found my

8:09

identity. It really goes it

8:09

really I finally, I spent a life

8:17

trying to identify and fit in

8:17

into a groups or lifestyle that

8:25

I how do I put it that I felt

8:25

like I belong or should belong

8:33

into and just completely

8:33

unconscious and really, in this

8:41

type of ego of I guess a sense

8:41

of belonging, or, and I was just

8:50

in it for so long. And and also

8:50

from doing so much work

8:54

realizing what triggers I had

8:54

that why I felt I was getting

9:00

something over on this side of

9:00

the fence that I wasn't getting

9:03

at home or whatever the case is,

9:03

you know, and then I'm really

9:09

making that my identity. That's

9:09

how I identify identified as a

9:13

gang member I identified as a

9:13

drug addict. So therefore, I

9:17

took on that identity to the

9:17

best of my ability and made sure

9:21

that everyone knew that that's

9:21

my identity. And after doing so

9:28

much work, I see my patterns I

9:28

seen what I did, and I wouldn't

9:33

change none of it. But that's

9:33

not my identity no more. That's

9:38

not you know, this work helped

9:38

me find my own identity. And so

9:43

now my identity changes my

9:43

lifestyle is changing. You know,

9:46

I went as far as changing I

9:46

don't even listen to rap

9:49

anymore. I just don't I don't

9:49

identify it. Yeah, like country.

9:55

Love Song. Like sad. Pressing

9:55

music that, you know, my partner

10:03

sends me so it's like, it's

10:03

great stuff. I love it. You

10:07

know? And I'm like, oh, yeah,

10:07

you know, and I'll visit it

10:10

every once in a while and I'm

10:10

like, Wow.

10:14

I have a hard time

10:14

believing that you send him

10:16

country music

10:18

sometimes, but I

10:18

actually when he's it's not

10:20

quite a justice. I'm like

10:22

facing every one.

10:22

Yeah. Do you want to sit on the

10:24

edge, or just sit on the

10:25

edge. I feel very like

10:25

turned one

10:30

way or the other. You can sit however, is comfortable, but I

10:32

will send him

10:32

very sad, depressing music and

10:35

then remind him this isn't about

10:35

us. I just really like sad,

10:38

depressing music. So some it's

10:38

very rarely country, although I

10:41

will listen to country it's OB songs

10:43

like, I hate my

10:43

life. You know, I'm gonna die

10:47

today and all kinds of stuff

10:47

just like this is not a

10:50

reflection of how I feel.

10:51

Do you remember any

10:51

of those? Remember the names of

10:54

any of those songs? I'm just if I can pull it up real quick playlist.

10:58

A playlist. It's

10:58

my favorites on Spotify. And

11:01

they're not all that sad and

11:01

depressing. I'd have to go back

11:03

and look, I also send him funny

11:03

stuff, which we can't talk about

11:06

on here that I'll send you later.

11:08

But it is there

11:08

are I but I enjoy it now because

11:11

I noticed that even even in his

11:11

way of the music. I'm listening.

11:16

Like I used to love rap music,

11:16

right? Because it got me fired

11:19

up and pumped up to go.

11:22

You want to reinforce

11:23

and then now I listen to some of these other songs. And I'm like, wow, that

11:25

touched me. Yeah. And now I'm

11:29

like, I like going visiting that

11:29

place. I like I like those

11:32

feelings.

11:33

In defensive rap and

11:33

those who like rap. I will I

11:36

will just say that. It's not

11:36

it's not the music that did that

11:39

to you. It's what you it's how

11:39

you chose to use them. And

11:42

plenty of people do crazily

11:42

enough they do that with country

11:45

too. Yeah. Oh,

11:47

I still listen.

11:47

Can I go to the gym? When I go

11:50

to the gym? I still listen to

11:50

rap. It gets me fired up.

11:54

Alright, so I just

11:54

realized that you still haven't.

11:57

I haven't actually asked you to

11:57

formally introduce yourself.

12:00

Although I do have I feel like

12:00

people will recognize your voice

12:03

quite easily. But let's just

12:03

pretend there's a new listener

12:06

out there just never heard you before. And

12:08

I was just really

12:08

enjoying the conversation. So

12:10

you know, I'm going to always

12:10

sit back and listen when I can.

12:13

My name is Dana. I lead with

12:13

Type Six, a guide and faculty

12:17

member at EPP and really happy

12:17

to be here again.

12:22

You were also on

12:22

Episode Six. I believe you're on

12:26

episode 19 ish with my mom. The

12:26

one that's I know. The title is

12:32

sweetly stubborn.

12:32

She is sweetly

12:32

stubborn. I love her so much.

12:36

Actually, I talked to you in the episode at the picnic. Yeah, so you've been on

12:38

before I just had different

12:41

gear.

12:42

And I got to sit

12:42

into the background on the

12:44

sweetly stubborn episode. I was

12:44

doing homework. But

12:47

yeah, my mom's out.

12:47

Yeah, y'all both came to town to

12:50

visit my mom. And

12:55

it was cool that

12:55

you were like an added bonus.

12:59

We did get a lot of

12:59

you. Yeah. And thankfully, I

13:02

live close enough to my mom that

13:02

I can come visit y'all too. And

13:06

as it's so it's still so bizarre

13:06

to me that my mom is just so

13:10

like, involved and has friends.

13:10

Like my two worlds have collided

13:14

in a really interesting way. I

13:14

think it's cool. It's shit. It's

13:17

also just something I would have

13:17

never ever in a million years.

13:19

Like if you told me even five

13:19

years ago, hey, by the way, your

13:22

mom and a few you're just gonna

13:22

be taking 91k and path to

13:25

freedom and she's gonna have a

13:25

weekly call with two different

13:27

people and all this other stuff.

13:27

She's gonna fly to California to

13:30

hang out at the elastics I'd be

13:30

like yeah, he's smoking that

13:34

shit man. You know any of my mom

13:34

do but it totally

13:39

goes to show that

13:39

any of us can change.

13:42

It goes to show that

13:42

it also goes to show that

13:45

sometimes I don't know what the

13:45

hell I'm talking about. And I

13:48

think your mom

13:48

would be the first person to say

13:50

though that she didn't see this

13:50

coming either. I agree. Yeah. So

13:54

is like kudos to her to jump in

13:54

and be so receptive when the

13:58

time felt right and she was

13:58

inspired and heard the call and

14:01

kudos to you for just holding

14:01

space constantly and inviting

14:05

her in and not being offended

14:05

when she wasn't ready yet.

14:08

That's expense it's

14:08

been so cool. Like it's actually

14:12

one of the greatest joys in in

14:12

recent history for me to watch

14:16

to watch my mom take those steps

14:16

and go down those really

14:19

uncomfortable paths I think and

14:19

and I'll share I'll ask her

14:25

before I publish this to make

14:25

sure that that's okay that I

14:27

shared this but if not, I'll

14:27

just cut it and you get to know

14:31

she's starting path to freedom

14:31

soon and she she had some

14:34

expectations about you've

14:34

already talked to her

14:37

would be Yeah, there

14:37

were expectations around

14:39

encouraging as I say

14:39

this, they can't hear that but I

14:41

can see it. And so she there

14:41

were some expectations about who

14:45

she might have as a guide and

14:45

path to freedom and those

14:48

expectations. It didn't go down

14:48

like that which is how it is

14:53

sometimes like it just it

14:53

sometimes you think this thing

14:56

will happen something else

14:56

happens. And she she called They

15:00

were texting me wanted to talk

15:00

on the phone. And long story

15:03

short, it was like, I don't know

15:03

what to do with this. It's

15:06

actually quite a impressive

15:06

display of growth, I think for

15:09

her, because instead of saying,

15:09

I'm out, this is not what I

15:13

thought it was gonna be. See you

15:13

later Bye. It was more like,

15:15

Hey, I don't know about this. I

15:15

don't know how I feel about

15:18

this. I'm not sure what I should

15:18

do with this. I don't know these

15:20

people. The whole the whole, but

15:20

it was a conversation of without

15:24

action that involve leaving,

15:24

which I found impressive. So we

15:28

talked through it, she told me

15:28

who she had. I was like, oh,

15:30

yeah, I totally I know both of

15:30

them. And I know one of them

15:33

really well and have very, you

15:33

know, high, I hold them in high

15:37

regard. I won't share the rest

15:37

of that conversation. But

15:39

basically, I was just like, hey,

15:39

it's like, I ain't trippin about

15:42

it. And I'm happy that that's

15:42

what you have. But also, if you

15:45

want me to show me call somebody

15:45

make it and whatever. And she

15:49

was like, No, it's it. I'm good.

15:49

It was so impressive. Because

15:51

that was literally all she

15:51

needed was just that, that I

15:56

guess, affirmation or confirmation or whatever, that that's good people. So even

15:58

though you've never met them,

16:02

and you don't know who they are, and they weren't who you thought they were going to be. So that's

16:03

fun.

16:05

I think that's so interesting how that shows up. Because I noticed that in a

16:07

lot of places too, even for me,

16:10

if it's someone that I've never

16:10

experienced, right, the question

16:13

is, can I trust them? Right? Can

16:13

they hold me? Do I believe

16:19

anything they're selling? Right?

16:19

And so, I mean, I think it's,

16:23

you know, so if anybody else out

16:23

there feels that way, you're not

16:27

alone. I'm an ambassador for EPP

16:27

so that way, when I go into a

16:30

new place, like, Alright, who is

16:30

this person? And do they know

16:34

what they are they living this

16:34

work? Can they demonstrate this

16:37

work and hold me in that work?

16:39

How it shows up for

16:39

me is, is it's not so much about

16:42

trust in that person is just

16:42

like, are they? Are they

16:47

equipped? Like, are they How did

16:47

they get here? Did they did they

16:51

prove to the right people that

16:51

they know what they're doing

16:53

that they know the material? And

16:53

it's I mean, it's all influenced

16:56

by type, of course. And

16:57

But doesn't that

16:57

boil down to trust for the five

17:00

that like I can trust? Like, if

17:00

if you've hit these criteria,

17:03

and you've shown a certain level

17:03

of competence, then hopefully I

17:05

can trust that you know, enough

17:05

that it isn't that you're not

17:09

trying to lead me somewhere that

17:09

could be astray.

17:11

It is there is an

17:11

element of trust in there. But

17:14

it's less about trusting the

17:14

person and more about trusting

17:19

the environment. So I don't know

17:19

it gets kind of wonky, because

17:23

there I mean, yes, there is

17:23

trust involved there. But my my

17:26

concern there is because to me

17:26

trust is about cannot tell you

17:30

something, and then you hold

17:30

that or you keep it secret with

17:32

me or whatever, keep it private.

17:32

Like to me that's how I

17:35

experienced trust most often in

17:35

that in the situation that we're

17:39

talking about if it if I showed

17:39

up to school, you know, as a kid

17:42

and had a different teaching

17:42

math. Actually, I did this

17:44

didn't happen. I wrote about

17:44

this in my book, I think, where

17:48

I thought I was gonna have a

17:48

teacher and then I saw the name.

17:51

It was a different and I was

17:51

like, Wait a second. That's not

17:53

who I wanted. It's not who was

17:53

supposed to be. And it wasn't

17:56

like a matter of Am I safe now?

17:56

It was more like, Hey, that's

18:00

not what? That's not right.

18:00

Like, it's not and it just turns

18:03

out, she got married, so she had

18:03

dinner last night. It was it was

18:07

no big deal. I think he got cut

18:07

from the book. Actually, I think

18:09

my editor was like, this doesn't

18:09

really matter. But anyway said

18:13

that digress. That

18:15

totally remind

18:15

me of the time went out. When I

18:17

went back to county jail. I went

18:17

back to county jail, right? This

18:21

is after I started the whole

18:21

Ambassador process, right? When

18:24

I went relapsing back to county

18:24

jail. And I was like, I've

18:28

gotten five, five, push, push to

18:28

get back into the program door

18:32

so I can get back to EPP. Right.

18:32

And so I did it. I'm in record

18:36

time. And I remember I got I got

18:36

the EPP class, and I walk in the

18:41

class and Susan's not there. I'm

18:41

like, What the fuck is going?

18:47

What happened? What's going on here?

18:49

Was it that nobody

18:49

was there it was data.

18:53

And I'm like,

18:53

fuck is this? And why is she in

18:57

this classroom? And so I walk

18:57

up, I introduce myself. And

19:03

she's like, Oh, my God, I found

19:03

you. And I'm like, fuck, okay,

19:07

whatever. And then, and then

19:07

she's like, I'm gonna let us

19:11

know right now we touch base a

19:11

little bit around all that

19:13

excuses have been looking for

19:13

you and blah, blah. And I was

19:15

like, you know, I thought that

19:15

was really, really cool. And

19:18

then later, I will, I'm going to

19:18

sit down and now I'm just

19:21

sitting down watching. Who is

19:21

this person in my class? And do

19:25

they know? And why is it not

19:25

suited? And also, it wasn't?

19:32

That's probably not

19:32

an uncommon thing. And I would

19:35

bet money that people have

19:35

thought the same about when it

19:37

wasn't Dana, if it was somebody

19:37

that had gotten used to seeing

19:40

Dana, I guarantee you I just

19:40

know how this works. Like

19:43

where's Dana? You're not Dana.

19:43

Yeah, that I guarantee people

19:46

have that experience with with

19:46

that that's just a thing. So I

19:50

guarantee you that's happened to

19:50

maybe I'll talk to somebody

19:52

someday. And they'll tell me

19:52

that so

19:55

I think it's very

19:55

important to note Dustin was not

19:58

my student on the inside. It was

19:58

once single class. And he was

20:01

never actually my student on the

20:01

inside. He was not he was a

20:05

participant for one day, the

20:05

opening class and then I've

20:08

never actually had him in

20:08

custody as my participant or we

20:11

were always moving in different

20:11

facilities at different times.

20:14

So when you went to

20:14

San Quentin after that, how long

20:17

was it before because you just

20:17

in the county, you just gotten

20:20

back to EPP and then go to San

20:20

Quentin got to start all over,

20:24

right?

20:25

Yeah, well, then

20:25

I went to San Quentin. And then

20:28

same thing. Found out that EPP

20:28

was also in San Quentin, and,

20:35

you know, navigated my way

20:35

through that to very quickly

20:39

getting back into TPP. And kind

20:39

of didn't record time because I

20:43

was walking the yard one day and

20:43

seeing Susan walking to class

20:48

and I was like,

20:49

dude, like, run after.

20:54

My soft voice gave her a well, I didn't give

21:01

her big. I don't know if I

21:05

hugged her or not. I don't know, I came up. Oh, my God. We

21:11

did the little I think we just

21:14

did little like, yeah, there you

21:14

are. And I was like, I need to

21:20

get back into class. I need I

21:20

need there. And so um, they had

21:27

the advanced class there. That

21:27

was like a while long waiting

21:29

list to get in. And Susan's

21:29

like, I'll get you in there. I

21:33

had like a delicate, like the

21:33

following week. Yeah. And then

21:36

yeah, then I was in her class,

21:36

back in there. And then, um,

21:41

yeah, that was for a couple,

21:41

only a couple of months. And

21:45

then then I got moved to the

21:45

firehouse. So but then I was

21:49

really excited because I get to

21:49

pick her up sometimes from the

21:52

sidebar of the shuttle. Yeah.

21:52

And pick her up and back to her

21:57

car,

21:57

a whole conversation

21:57

around that, because that's just

21:59

that doesn't sound like prison

21:59

to me. You said something I want

22:01

to I want to I want to go back

22:01

to it's just a word. I like to

22:04

do this. If there's prison lingo

22:04

that folks might know, what does

22:07

it Duquette? What does that mean? In prison,

22:09

that's like a,

22:09

like your hall pass. Pretty

22:12

much. It's a it's literally just

22:12

a little four inch by three inch

22:16

piece of paper that has your

22:16

name, and the time and date of a

22:23

group or doctor's appointment or

22:23

whatever that you're allowed to

22:26

go to. And so if you're in a

22:26

cell or in a dorm, you got to

22:29

show the officer that you have a

22:29

duck in order to leave,

22:32

it allows you to

22:32

move and go, is it an

22:34

invitation? And then you have

22:34

permission to go? Or is it a

22:37

requirement that you go? So in

22:37

other words, if you got to duck

22:39

it, if you just said I don't

22:39

feel like it? What happens

22:42

depends

22:42

on the color of

22:42

the delicate. Ah, if it's a pink

22:45

delicate, it's usually required

22:45

delicate. And I Yeah, and if

22:50

it's a white, delicate, it's a

22:50

optional optional. Usually, you

22:55

don't have to have those

22:55

the only two colors.

22:57

I think I think

22:57

those there's probably more but

22:59

probably I wasn't that hip. So I

22:59

didn't get all this? Well, it

23:06

was because the cool people

23:06

always get lots of duckets and

23:09

lots of mail and I didn't get

23:09

either. So I just

23:12

Well, that's sad. And the first part is funny. But the second part said, I didn't

23:15

Yeah, it was

23:15

rough was a rough four years.

23:18

Well, then,

23:19

then, I mean, in

23:19

that case that did all these

23:22

thoughts will eventually get to

23:22

Belgium. Okay, I promise we'll

23:25

get there. But I can't resist

23:25

asking another question when

23:29

something pops up. And just

23:29

speaking to the culture of what

23:34

it's like to be the prison

23:34

culture getting mail stuff like

23:37

that. And, and all that what,

23:37

what, how big of a deal is mail?

23:42

Or what's it like to be there

23:42

watching everybody else get mail

23:44

and you're not getting mail?

23:46

When? So when

23:46

you hear your name called? Okay,

23:52

put it this way. So every day I

23:52

remember when I'm in the dorm.

23:57

When I first got to sanquin When

23:57

I first got the dorm every night

24:01

during Mel call, you know more

24:01

than half the people in the

24:05

dorm, there's like 100 people in

24:05

the dorm, but at least you know

24:07

50 to 60 of them would all group

24:07

up really close to the podium

24:12

loves podium and everyone's

24:12

waiting because you know

24:15

everyone's expecting mail. And

24:15

there was quite a few times you

24:19

know where I would join that

24:19

group. And when you're in that

24:24

group, and then you don't hear

24:24

your name calls for mail. It's

24:31

it while it hurts. It's sad, you

24:31

know, but like it made me feel

24:36

very sad. It would make me feel

24:36

I don't know forgotten or

24:51

and then vote on the times you

24:51

did get your name called, even

24:55

if it was just for a delicate

24:55

and not male. Just a delicate to

25:00

go somewhere, it felt good.

25:00

Because you know, someone or

25:05

something was thinking about

25:05

you. And so that always felt

25:09

really, really special. I always

25:09

felt very special. Yes.

25:18

So what's going on

25:18

inside of you right now?

25:23

Nothing Just

25:23

just reminiscing, you know,

25:29

since we got back from Belgium,

25:29

honestly, and visiting the

25:33

prison and seeing all that. I've

25:33

just been noticing a lot more

25:40

tenderness inside me. And then a

25:40

lot more able to recall a lot

25:49

more of my own experiences, and

25:49

how things felt when I was

25:53

inside. Because I realized

25:53

probably right now, at this very

25:59

moment, that a lot of that stuff

25:59

sat and was really hurt. And so

26:08

it was a good reminder. For me,

26:08

it was a good reminder for me to

26:15

I guess. Recognize that I am.

26:15

Right where I want to be. And

26:24

I'm who I want to be today. And

26:24

also see a really deep breath

26:30

into the parts that I that I

26:30

buried. Yeah, that didn't want

26:35

to feel because, you know, so it

26:35

reminded me of a lot of that

26:39

stuff.

26:42

They do mail call,

26:42

in alphabetical order where you

26:46

were?

26:47

No, they did

26:47

that. Oh, that's cool.

26:50

So be would have

26:50

been like soon. And you'd know,

26:53

like, immediately, almost,

26:54

that's cool. I

26:54

wonder who took the time to do

26:57

that? Because our officers would

26:57

not meet that.

27:00

It was, it was just

27:00

part of the mail sorting

27:02

process. And they were super,

27:02

they were, they were very strict

27:06

and meticulous, that's way

27:06

better than bleeping that. They

27:12

were they were they were very

27:12

strict and meticulous about how

27:16

they sorted the mail, each unit,

27:16

and it would, it would, it would

27:20

be in alphabetical order. And

27:20

you can see, I don't have to

27:23

hang on this too long. I mean, I

27:23

just but you could see the hurt

27:26

in people. You know, like if

27:26

their name if their name was Bob

27:31

Baldwin. And they got to, you

27:31

know, Carter, you know, the bees

27:37

would turn around and lower

27:37

their head and try to make it

27:39

look like it didn't hurt while

27:39

you're walking by. And it's

27:42

brutal. And it does, I got a lot

27:42

of I was super fortunate. And on

27:47

the days that I didn't, it was

27:47

like, what happened to me today.

27:51

And I actually started keeping a

27:51

log of who wrote me and when I

27:56

got a little carried away with

27:56

it. I'll admit it. I would if I

27:59

wrote you a letter today. I

27:59

wouldn't know when you wrote me

28:03

back how long it took. And there

28:03

was a point where like, if I

28:06

wrote somebody and they took

28:06

months to write back, I'd be

28:08

angry at first was when you

28:08

finally board enough to think of

28:12

me kind of stuff. And so I would

28:12

wait that long to write them

28:15

back. And I eventually I only

28:15

did that for probably a year. So

28:18

but those were not fun times.

28:18

But yeah, mail is a big deal on

28:22

the inside. So anybody any buddy

28:22

out there who has somebody in

28:26

inside, throw him a letter

28:26

thrown postcard postcard. Yeah,

28:29

sound I mean anything now. I

28:29

mean, and now it's so easy to do

28:32

it digitally. I don't know if

28:32

it's like this in California,

28:35

but I know in Texas, and also

28:35

everywhere in the feds, you can

28:38

do you can do things digitally.

28:38

It's super easy to send an

28:40

email. It's super worth it. So

28:40

okay, so

28:45

before we move

28:45

forward, can I hijack this for

28:47

always? So I think, and I've

28:47

heard you talk about this to

28:51

client, I'm wondering if we

28:51

could go here before we talk

28:53

about love. But this does have

28:53

to do with it. I think something

28:56

really shifted in you when there

28:56

were two officers that were

29:00

falling all over themselves so

29:00

sweetly, wanting to give Dustin

29:03

a tour of the facility. And so

29:03

he asked if a bunch of us could

29:07

take a tour. And we did. And it

29:07

felt like something happened

29:12

inside of you towards the end of

29:12

that tour. And I know that when

29:15

you were in Sterling, something

29:15

happened inside of you when you

29:19

took a tour. And I'm wondering

29:19

if we can if we can go there for

29:23

a minute because I think that

29:23

it's so impactful to take a tour

29:27

of a facility and the loves is

29:27

the only place that I've been

29:32

able to take a tour personally,

29:32

I've just never been available

29:35

on the other days in other

29:35

spaces when the tours have been

29:37

offered to EPP ears. And I knew

29:37

how it impacted me. And I've

29:44

never been physically

29:44

incarcerated. And so I'm just

29:47

curious because I think you

29:47

know, Dustin you came with such

29:50

an open heart and so much

29:50

vulnerability and on the panel

29:53

and you laid it out there. And

29:53

then something happened in the

29:57

tour and you were massively in

29:57

acted, and I talked to you after

30:01

years and you were impacted. So

30:01

I'm wondering if we can,

30:03

I had to think for a

30:03

second what happened is

30:06

startling because I was thinking

30:06

those those beautiful that on

30:09

the inside of the yard, you

30:09

can't even see the razor wire.

30:11

It the grass is the greenest

30:11

grass I've ever seen. And I was

30:14

trying to think what was so

30:14

awesome that I that I would talk

30:17

about it being like it was all

30:17

great. And then I remembered

30:19

walking your talk about when I

30:19

walked into a cell. And we so we

30:22

on our tour, we went through

30:22

some of the housing units and

30:27

one place I went and we play a

30:27

few games of chess and I was

30:30

super laid back and super chill

30:30

the tour was and then at this

30:33

particular prison they have,

30:33

they have I forget what they

30:40

call it there but like a pet

30:40

program. So the people who are

30:44

incarcerated there often have

30:44

dogs and and they train them,

30:48

they live with him and all that

30:48

stuff. So we were walking

30:51

through one of the units where

30:51

they had pets and one one cell

30:54

in particular it was it was the

30:54

one unit housing unit in

30:57

particular, had a lot of dogs,

30:57

but then one of the cells was

31:01

like wide open. And I forget who

31:01

always was I know Suzanne was

31:05

there, I forget who all was with

31:05

us there somebody there was a

31:09

new experience. So like go into

31:09

a physical prison cell. And I

31:14

didn't think anything of it. I

31:14

was just like, oh, okay, I'm

31:16

gonna just I'm the veteran here.

31:16

So I'll walk in and talk about

31:20

this and the toilet in the

31:20

toilet weird. Like, have you

31:22

ever seen a stainless steel, one

31:22

piece toilet sink? Like it's

31:25

like everything happens in your

31:25

laundry, cook, use the restroom,

31:28

all of it. And I'm walking in

31:28

with. It totally caught me off

31:33

guard because as soon as I

31:33

stepped in, and I crossed the

31:36

threshold of that door, it was

31:36

like something from a Stephen

31:39

King movie where I immediately

31:39

it was, I mean, even my hearing

31:44

was affected. It was just like,

31:44

and I was I was there again. And

31:50

it was so like they was so

31:50

physically disruptive like it

31:56

was. I was. I literally said no,

31:56

that's it. I'm good. That's back

32:02

out. And it fucked with me. Like

32:02

it really really fucked with me

32:07

because A, I felt I felt locked

32:07

up again. And I'm always just

32:14

I'm always disturbed, almost

32:14

always disturbed, disturbed when

32:19

something catches me off guard

32:19

like that. Because I feel like I

32:22

have a lot of foresight. I feel

32:22

like I know when things are

32:26

coming around the bend, so to

32:26

speak. And when things happen

32:29

that I didn't foresee, or that I

32:29

couldn't have expected, or

32:33

anything like that. It really

32:33

fucks with my head, it really

32:38

first and foremost fucks with my

32:38

head, because I should have

32:41

known that that was of course

32:41

that's going to happen. Like why

32:44

why would I enact for the fact

32:44

I'm angry? Like, why did I not

32:47

even think about that I just

32:47

willy nilly walked into this

32:50

prison cell. And, and I felt

32:50

like I was assaulted. And in my

32:56

body just I portrayed me because

32:56

I couldn't see, right. I

33:00

couldn't hear right. I was

33:00

shaking. And I forgot how to

33:04

breathe. Like all these things

33:04

just shut down. And I was like,

33:08

I'm getting all this happens in

33:08

like less than two seconds. And

33:14

I and I step back out. Oh, good.

33:14

And I forget who was there?

33:20

Which is sad, because they were

33:20

a big deal to me that day. But I

33:23

said I that was a mistake. And

33:23

they're like, Yeah, I can't

33:27

imagine. And that was a fucked

33:27

me up for a while. I don't ever

33:32

want to feel that again. So I

33:32

don't know if that's similar to

33:35

what happened for you are there

33:35

was another experience. But that

33:38

was that was a low point for me

33:38

for a lot of reasons. And that

33:44

sucked. Yeah,

33:46

thank you for

33:46

sharing. And I, I just was so

33:50

curious, because it's a lot to

33:50

ask to invite you all back

33:54

inside, I think many people who

33:54

have never been on the inside in

33:59

any capacity, whether they're a

33:59

visitor, they're a resident, or

34:03

they're a guide or a guest any

34:03

of that I think that they really

34:06

don't understand the you can't

34:06

understand until you experience

34:10

it. Right. And it's, it's it's

34:10

hard, I think, for anyone to

34:18

imagine the both the reward and

34:18

the toll on someone who was

34:22

physically incarcerated and

34:22

detained. And then who is coming

34:26

back in by choice and you shared

34:26

a little bit about how you and

34:28

Laura talked about that. And

34:28

then sometimes if you can keep

34:32

it to the classroom, it feels

34:32

okay. But to do the tour to take

34:38

that extra step. And I would

34:38

like to say you know, Luz is

34:40

also a beautiful facility. It's

34:40

new, it's high tech, it's off

34:44

the grid. It's glass with

34:44

beautiful art. They're really

34:47

progressive and we had to work

34:47

on this for corrections

34:49

officers, a social worker took

34:49

the whole class with 26

34:53

detainees. I mean, it's

34:53

incredible. And they have a lot

34:56

of freedom in that facility and

34:56

they have a lot of rights like

34:58

more freedom and right than many

34:58

places, at least in California.

35:03

I couldn't go in the cell to

35:03

hustle was like they have get in

35:06

here like this is big. And I was

35:06

like, I can't like I was crying

35:10

and I was shaking. And I was

35:10

like, I can't like I've hit my

35:13

capacity. It actually wasn't

35:13

where you hit yours. So do you

35:17

want to talk a little bit about

35:17

your experience with that?

35:19

Yeah, I can do

35:19

that. So yeah, I was already I

35:26

was already blown away when we

35:26

first got to the prison, and I

35:29

walked in because it is brand

35:29

new. And it is all nice. Yeah,

35:35

it really is. I mean, yeah,

35:35

these guys have a fully

35:39

operational kitchen that they

35:39

can go cook meals in. And, you

35:42

know, like, all this, I'm

35:42

hearing all these things and

35:44

seeing all this they have a

35:44

shower in their cell, and not

35:47

like how you think it's like a

35:47

showerhead coming from the

35:50

ceiling over the stainless steel

35:50

toilet. So which is already on

35:54

Michael, that kind of sucks. But

35:54

you know what, you know, and

35:57

they are single celled, I'm

35:57

thinking, wow, this is what a

36:00

great way to do time. And as

36:00

we're doing the tour, I'm

36:04

noticing all these things. I was

36:04

like, oh, yeah, this, I could do

36:06

time here. I could do time here

36:06

because I'm comparing it to the

36:12

dumps in the, the places I've

36:12

done time already. And like, you

36:17

know, and even just the filth of

36:17

it of so many different places

36:20

and stuff, you know, and I'm

36:20

like, This isn't bad, this isn't

36:24

bad. And then we went into where

36:24

the cells were, all the doors

36:26

are closed, one door is open,

36:26

looking at the tears, and they

36:29

got the little they're solid

36:29

doors, little flaps where they

36:32

can, you know, raise the flap on

36:32

the door do count. And I

36:36

remember first seeing that that

36:36

was the first my first little

36:39

warning sign to where I was

36:39

like, whew, this feels a little

36:42

heavy. And then. And then we

36:42

went to the cell. And you know,

36:48

he opened a cell, and they know

36:48

the guard or that was giving us

36:53

a tour officer officer. Yeah,

36:53

who's agent, the agent who was

36:57

coming out with a call they call

36:57

an agent. So yeah, I kind of

36:59

liked that. Actually. Yeah, that's pretty dope. I love that to the agent that was giving us

37:01

the tour. You know, he's like,

37:05

Go on in. And, uh, you know, of

37:05

course, I'm going to go and go

37:10

check this out. So I when I was

37:10

like, wow, this is actually kind

37:13

of spaces. This is not too bad.

37:13

You know, I could do time in

37:16

here. And then that's a wild

37:16

thing to tell yourself, by the

37:21

way. i Right. Yeah. And also

37:21

totally good. Yeah. And so I'm

37:26

like, All right. And then we

37:26

walked out, I was, I felt still

37:32

a little more heavy, I guess the

37:32

best way but I felt a little

37:35

more heavy. And but it still

37:35

wasn't really hitting me. And

37:39

then we were in the big like the

37:39

hub area, the control hub, and

37:45

then the four wings are off each

37:45

one we're looking around. And

37:48

then we're standing there for a

37:48

minute. And then that's when I

37:51

first realized was like, we're

37:51

standing here too long. You

37:55

know, that like something

37:55

already shifted. And he's like,

37:57

we're here. This is we're here

37:57

and we're in this spot too long.

37:59

Let's, we need to move out. We

37:59

need to go. And so we had a

38:04

large group. I don't know maybe

38:04

a dozen or something that were

38:08

in that that were in our tour

38:08

group. So we left the hub. And

38:13

then we went into this small

38:13

square room, you know, basically

38:18

like, you know what, like a

38:18

Sally. Sally like the doors are

38:21

has to close for the other door

38:21

to open. Yeah, exactly like a

38:24

sally port where one door has to

38:24

close for the other one to open.

38:26

Yeah, we all smashed in there.

38:26

It hit me. We all smashed in

38:32

that little sally port, the door

38:32

closed, bam. And then we waited

38:37

for the next door open. And at

38:37

that moment, it hit me being

38:42

shoved in a little room with a

38:42

bunch of people that can't move

38:48

till someone else opens the door

38:48

for us, or for me. And I

38:55

remember just as soon as that

38:55

door closed, that slam and the

38:59

next one open. Soon as we walked

38:59

out just a flood of different

39:06

emotions memories came over me.

39:06

And then we went back into the

39:13

gym got in our circles. And

39:13

luckily it was the second half

39:17

of that day. Because after that

39:17

I was so far below the line. I

39:21

couldn't even take notes. I

39:21

couldn't even hear listen to

39:25

what anybody was saying. I was

39:25

checked out. I was gone. And I

39:30

also remember when all the guys

39:30

came back in. You know, the guys

39:38

that were locked up, came back

39:38

in and sat down the circle. I

39:40

remember looking at him. And I

39:40

shared this with Susan I think I

39:44

told you to but I had this

39:44

moment that actually stuck with

39:47

me where I'm looking that

39:47

everyone looked like a child.

39:51

Everyone in the room looked like

39:51

a sad upset child that was in a

39:54

cage on a timeout and not

39:54

understanding why they were

39:57

being on one and sad and a upset

39:57

and scared and all these

40:02

different things. And I don't

40:02

know if that was, that's how I

40:05

seen them. But that's how I felt

40:05

inside. That's how I felt

40:09

inside. And I was like, this is

40:09

not, this is not okay, this is

40:14

still a prison, you know, and

40:14

and then all I wanted to do was

40:24

I just wanted to help them

40:24

somehow. And I knew I couldn't

40:30

other than just my presence. And

40:30

at that moment, I wasn't even

40:34

able to give that for the rest

40:34

of that day. Actually, I was

40:38

done.

40:39

Yeah, I was fucked for the day after that

40:41

now, with my

40:41

socks, man.

40:46

That's conversations

40:46

that we need to have as

40:48

ambassadors. Like, look out.

40:48

Because I've been it actually,

40:52

it's funny, because I'm not

40:52

funny. It's interesting. I was

40:55

talking with Alex. This week, we

40:55

were in prison down in San

40:59

Diego. And when we go to the

40:59

Sally porch, walk across the

41:03

yard, like I was asking him,

41:03

Does this ever do anything for

41:05

you? And he's like, nice, cool.

41:05

I was like, Yeah, me too. Just

41:08

like the basics of walking to

41:08

class. And I know that that's

41:13

not always true for folks going

41:13

in for the first time. But I

41:16

know Chuck recently went back in

41:16

and I hope to talk to him soon

41:19

about that. And it's just one of

41:19

those things where like, the

41:22

first can be tricky. Like, it's,

41:22

it's, but I've done it. I've

41:26

been out for a while. And I've

41:26

gone to a lot of prisons, and

41:30

I've even gone into sales, but

41:30

I've gotten into housing units

41:33

have like, like pods or even did

41:33

like the Alcatraz tour where

41:37

there's you go in the sales, and

41:37

I didn't like that. But I it was

41:40

not a big deal. Like I've never

41:40

been blindsided like that

41:43

before. And I don't know, I

41:43

think it might be worth talking

41:47

about, you know, with, in

41:47

particular with the ambassador

41:50

group about a hate this trauma

41:50

was sneak up on you. And it

41:54

will, it will hit you in a way

41:54

that you didn't know this was

41:58

possible. And I think if I think

41:58

that's part of what I was really

42:03

angry, I should I just wish I

42:03

would have thought about it. I

42:06

think I think I could walk I

42:06

don't think it was all about the

42:09

sale. I think I just my defenses

42:09

were down. And I think I was

42:13

just like, sure. Cool. Yeah,

42:13

whatever. And then it was that

42:17

was I was off. Yeah, that's not

42:17

a fun conversation.

42:26

And you're

42:26

right, I didn't. When we first

42:28

got there the first day inside.

42:28

I was like, I don't even feel

42:33

like I'm in prison. And I feel

42:33

strangely comfortable here. And

42:36

I feel like, you know, like, I'm

42:36

right at home. You know,

42:42

honestly, like, I was like, Oh,

42:42

this is I don't feel nothing at

42:45

all. And I wasn't expecting,

42:45

like you said I wasn't expecting

42:50

it to affect me or hit me the

42:50

way it did. And also, like you

42:55

were saying you never you don't

42:55

know what little thing could

42:59

trigger. I mean, it could be who

42:59

knows? I mean, I could. I've

43:02

heard stories of other people

43:02

coming inside San Quentin that

43:06

teach them drug classes that did

43:06

a lot here. This one gentleman

43:09

did a lot of time there. And I

43:09

remember made me recall that he

43:12

was on his way to class and the

43:12

alarm went off. And he did like

43:17

15 years there in San Quentin.

43:17

But he's been out for I don't

43:19

know, five or six years. And now

43:19

he's a counselor. And he was I

43:22

remember in class in Germany, so

43:22

I lay down on the ground.

43:24

Yeah, I would. Yeah.

43:24

Pavlov knew.

43:31

But it's like,

43:31

you know, and then I've made so

43:33

then yeah, then you just made

43:33

all kinds of brought a lot of

43:36

the different memories and

43:36

thoughts up and I'm like, wow,

43:38

that's you don't know. It's

43:38

gonna turn. Yeah, it's

43:41

definitely a conversation, I

43:41

think. Yeah, for all of

43:45

ambassadors to have. And me

43:45

personally, I don't think I'll

43:48

ever want to do a presenter again.

43:50

Yeah. When we when

43:50

we were at a prison in South

43:54

California, whatever. I don't

43:54

know if I can delete that or

43:57

bleep it or what I don't know

43:57

what I were supposed to say with

43:59

names. Forget, whatever. After

43:59

the we were there for a whole

44:04

week last year, with with like,

44:04

three guides and three

44:08

apprentices. And it was a big

44:08

deal. And when at the end of the

44:10

week, they all went on the tour.

44:10

And I was like, Yeah, wait, I'll

44:13

wait. I'll wait. And the way the

44:13

car me and Jen checked it hung

44:16

out. And that was actually one

44:16

of my favorite memories of the

44:18

whole week actually just sitting

44:18

in the car. And we didn't like

44:21

talk barley at all. We just sit

44:21

there and we did talk, but not a

44:24

lot. But anyways, I digress. I

44:24

don't I don't if I could. If

44:29

somebody wants it, so if there

44:29

was a purpose to it, like, Hey,

44:33

I've never been you know, and I

44:33

want to let you go. I would I

44:35

would be okay with it. And I

44:35

would just, I would I would lace

44:38

myself up. Yeah, be prepared and

44:38

all that stuff. And actually

44:41

just remember, remember the

44:41

details. That was an ad segue.

44:44

And the prison where the word my

44:44

thing happened was was was the

44:49

whole as they as they call it

44:49

sometimes. And it's oh man, I'll

44:56

never do that again. That's for

44:56

damn sure. But yeah, I think in

45:01

sound sound there's something

45:01

about the sounds because we

45:05

talked about in one of the check

45:05

ins this week at the class that

45:08

we were in on the inside all the

45:08

things that happen around prison

45:13

don't bother me that much like

45:13

the concrete the bricks, though,

45:18

you know all the different

45:18

things that sometimes the the

45:21

CEOs are kind of wonky doesn't

45:21

bother me at all like I know

45:24

we've had some ambassadors who

45:24

tripped smoothed out because of

45:27

the behavior of some of the

45:27

CEOs. And rightfully so because

45:30

it's a trigger. It's a legit

45:30

trigger. So I, I just I haven't

45:33

experienced that. But the those

45:33

fucking keys, man, the sound

45:37

keys make the javelin and I

45:37

think they do sometimes just to

45:40

just to fiddle with it. And it's

45:40

upright. So we talked a little

45:43

bit about that this week, as

45:43

well, but it's a trip. This is

45:49

not on topic. So if there's

45:49

anything here you want to keep

45:51

going with but as you said,

45:51

agents is what they call the

45:54

Coos. There are the agents, I

45:54

guess. Did they say a different

45:57

word for the inmates there?

45:59

detainees? Right? Yeah,

46:01

yeah. I've heard

46:01

Sean Felipe. Yeah, I've heard

46:04

him say that before. But he's

46:04

not at that prison.

46:07

So we were at

46:07

Luz, and he just went back and

46:11

he's now the warden at Marsh,

46:11

which is a facility still in

46:14

Belgium. But then also they have

46:14

it's a progressive facility,

46:17

they have a lot of freedoms, a

46:17

lot, a lot more time out of

46:20

their cell, I think than they do

46:20

in laws. And so very, those two

46:25

facilities are very progressive

46:25

facilities.

46:27

So is that I don't

46:27

know a whole lot about the

46:31

Belgium CIS Belgian system. Does

46:31

that language go throughout?

46:37

Like, do they use that kind of

46:37

stuff everywhere? Is it specific

46:39

to where those people are?

46:41

I'm not sure. I

46:41

think they use it in most

46:44

places. There is the feeling

46:44

that I got and knowing that they

46:47

also use it in marsh and in Luz

46:47

makes me think and it's, it is

46:53

Kinder languaging is like

46:53

residents, detainees. Officers

46:58

agents. Yeah. And you know,

46:58

prison is prison. Yeah, some are

47:05

significantly worse than others,

47:05

right. And a lot of the guys in

47:08

our class were like, so grateful

47:08

to be there, like, so grateful

47:12

to be in that space. So I don't

47:12

want to diminish the work that

47:15

they're doing the facility, the

47:15

humanity that's there.

47:19

And you're still locked

47:19

up. So that that piece that in

47:26

that knowing it doesn't, doesn't

47:26

leave another just the trauma

47:30

that's housed in the walls? Yeah. Yeah. I don't like it.

47:42

I don't like it.

47:44

A hard reality to

47:44

stay with. And I think that when

47:49

we go inside, especially when

47:49

we're guiding and ambassadors,

47:53

being the co pilot in that

47:53

space, it's easy to want to

47:58

compartmentalize those things

47:58

and when we can stay present to

48:03

that everything is so much

48:03

richer, so much deeper. And it

48:08

really shows the gravity of what

48:08

we're all in this space to do

48:11

together, which is freedom and

48:11

liberation, even if actually

48:16

physically I'm locked up.

48:28

Hey, y'all, it's

48:28

clay. And we are going to pause

48:31

the conversation here

48:31

momentarily, just to to share a

48:34

little bit of love to express

48:34

our gratitude and to share a few

48:39

words of appreciation. Ariane

48:39

Kessel is an EPP guide, dot,

48:45

dot, dot and a bunch of other

48:45

stuffs that I can't list off

48:49

because she does a lot of

48:49

things. She is I'm probably

48:53

understanding this, but she's

48:53

kind of a big deal with regard

48:55

to our virtual programming. And

48:55

in particular with our French

48:59

speaking folks, I spent a week

48:59

with her in Southern California

49:02

at a prison at a prison there

49:02

and I just can't say enough nice

49:08

things about Ariana she is

49:08

extremely homeboy, when you

49:13

think about heart types, her

49:13

heart is in this work. And, you

49:17

know, I I speak very openly and

49:17

honestly about perspective

49:21

guides and how important it is

49:21

for you to lead with who you

49:24

are, rather than what you know.

49:24

And as a Type Five head type,

49:29

you know, someone who like

49:29

that's borderline blasphemy, and

49:33

my you know, head head type

49:33

circles. And it's just true,

49:36

like who you are, is so much

49:36

more important than what you

49:40

know. I've seen Arianna and work

49:40

in action on the inside with

49:45

folks who are trying to be

49:45

liberated from the prison's of

49:48

their own making. And I'm glad

49:48

she's on our team. And I'll just

49:53

I'll summarize it by saying that

49:53

and I'll share a few other folks

49:58

who would like something to say

49:58

here too. And by the way, this

50:02

is not all in English, there's a

50:02

little bit of English, a little

50:04

bit of French. And at first I

50:04

thought, maybe we'll translate

50:08

this. And I've changed my mind.

50:08

I actually think that you don't

50:12

need to, I don't think you need

50:12

to understand all these words,

50:15

you can feel the love, you can

50:15

feel the appreciation. Even if

50:18

you don't know what the words

50:18

mean. I think you'll see what I

50:22

mean here in a few moments. So

50:22

enough for me, let's move on to

50:26

other folks who would like to

50:26

share with you their words of

50:28

appreciation for Ariane Kessel.

50:31

Oh, where to start with

50:31

Ariane I still remember meeting

50:35

her years ago, on a bench

50:35

outside of San Quentin, we were

50:38

both waiting to head in. I

50:38

immediately fell in love with

50:42

her with no idea how much I

50:42

would grow just knowing her. We

50:47

used to be able to guide

50:47

together in person before COVID.

50:51

And it was such a treat, I

50:51

learned so much about guiding

50:54

from her about how I wanted to

50:54

show up in the classroom. How I

51:00

wanted to hold everything that

51:00

was there, she has this capacity

51:07

to just stay in it. I have grown

51:07

so much from being in

51:13

relationship with her. I have

51:13

she's invited me into parts of

51:19

myself that I didn't know I

51:19

could be with. I could say so

51:24

much more about very practical

51:24

things and her skills and all of

51:30

the so many things but really

51:30

that's that's what sticks out to

51:33

me and that's been life changing

51:33

for me and I am so grateful for

51:38

aureon And what she brings to

51:38

this project and to me

51:42

personally, again because I please he should

51:43

have yet nickimja chose chemo

51:48

vinyasas Seung Ki Satya will see

51:54

some coffee Sinhalese market

51:54

power. It vocally shows who are

51:58

benefit as Krishna mercy Chevy

51:58

unsecured daily shows although

52:03

serve led electricity as you put

52:03

up his he was his on consoles.

52:09

The login is as your locker

52:09

Halina su MC Dickerson the

52:13

person for alpha il fibia IEA

52:13

netteller For excision alt ablv

52:20

Yacht Asia Cherkasy mo sashes L

52:20

A planned auto shows set and

52:25

monitors on a principle

52:25

comedian. He says

52:29

Ariane Kessel I

52:29

would love to share some

52:32

appreciation for Ariane I've had

52:32

the great pleasure of working

52:37

with Ariane over this past year

52:37

in a number of spaces and we

52:40

were together at RJ D holding

52:40

apprentices in the program there

52:44

we've worked in guide

52:44

development circle together and

52:47

a few of the XP circles over

52:47

this last year. And the things

52:52

I've grown to appreciate most

52:52

about aureon Well, first I

52:56

should say she's definitely one

52:56

of my go to people around around

53:00

EPP when I have a question or

53:00

when I need help with something.

53:04

Or when when I need somebody to

53:04

to kind of partner up with and I

53:11

know is going to be reliable and

53:11

professional. Aryan is

53:15

absolutely like the first person

53:15

that often comes to mind for me.

53:19

Because probably because we've

53:19

had so many really positive

53:23

experiences working together.

53:23

And the quality that she brings

53:28

most that I really appreciate.

53:28

I'm sure others will mention

53:31

some other things too. I find

53:31

that she brings out just a lot

53:34

of balance and perspective to

53:34

conversations in a way I really

53:37

like. But the thing that I think

53:37

is so beautiful about Ariana is

53:42

her advocacy, she very

53:42

intentionally tries to give

53:47

voice to the voiceless whether

53:47

and represent them to whatever

53:55

other groups need to hear their

53:55

message. So that might be a

53:57

participant one of her programs

53:57

might be an apprentice that

54:00

she's giving voice to it might

54:00

be guides in general it might be

54:04

you know people from a certain a

54:04

certain region or background

54:09

with their guiding it could be

54:09

for herself at moments. But she

54:14

has this really beautiful

54:14

quality of being able to stand

54:18

in and yeah advocate for herself

54:18

or others when more

54:28

understanding is needed, and I

54:28

really appreciate that and

54:32

admire that about Ariane

54:33

Hi Ariane This is Su

54:33

There's so much I appreciate

54:38

about you. I love that you just

54:38

are always so caring and making

54:44

sure that we're taking care of

54:44

ourselves since I met you all

54:48

the way back at 1440. And I

54:48

remember when we did the

54:53

training virtually when you when

54:53

you found out what my ACE score

54:57

was, how how of me Did you and

54:57

how how touched you were? I'll

55:03

never forget that. And yeah all

55:03

the holding you do worldwide

55:09

what you've done over for

55:09

Belgium and France and all the

55:14

things that you bring to us here

55:14

your wealth of knowledge about

55:18

the Enneagram and gets his a

55:18

pleasure having you with us all

55:25

in this organization and and I

55:25

just appreciate all you bring.

55:32

Thank you have a good day. What

55:36

does he do ppmv Big IQ to the

55:36

world for the occasion affection

55:41

particularly bohemian Cuba juicy

55:41

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55:46

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56:31

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56:45

reported owed. Sachi autograder

56:45

Holy f coming to show the Alonzo

56:52

continua. Don't sit on Volpone

56:52

wire in an auto. My name is LM

56:57

I'm an EPP guide in Belgium.

56:57

First of all, I have to say that

57:01

I have a special affection for

57:01

Ariane who's Belgian also, I'm

57:05

not very objective. So don't

57:05

believe anything I bought tell

57:08

you. I had the pleasure to have

57:08

her as a guide in past freedom

57:12

two years ago. And to appreciate

57:12

her teaching skills, her

57:16

clarity, or application or

57:16

generosity and gentleness to

57:22

especially at my most recent and

57:22

most vivid memory is a GTP eight

57:27

session a few months ago, during

57:27

which I accompany two students

57:31

with her. I was very touched by

57:31

her attention to detail. Her

57:35

high standards are relevant and

57:35

always so benevolent tips of

57:40

smiling away she took the

57:40

apprentices by the hand like a

57:43

guide. Really, my lighting them

57:43

the way I love metaphors and the

57:50

one that comes to me for a

57:50

reason is precisely that over

57:53

light. Not a big spotlight, but

57:53

rather a delicate and strong

57:58

candle that dispenses its

57:58

Subtitle but warm light and the

58:03

trading has certain moments of

58:03

looping at others shimmering

58:08

according to the reliefs like a

58:08

candle in the wind please

58:13

continue to dance in the wind

58:13

for us Ariane for a long time

58:27

want to talk about

58:27

trains planes and automobiles

58:29

with Mr. International here? All

58:29

right. So I I do want to know

58:34

about your travels. And I'd say

58:34

Mr. International as a joke, but

58:37

I actually it's that's this was

58:37

an international trip. You got

58:41

your passport and got my

58:41

passport. And I have to say so I

58:47

knew I knew that the trip was

58:47

coming up. And I knew that it

58:50

was not a guarantee that you

58:50

would get your passport and be

58:53

able to go. I knew that an

58:53

ambassador would go. And I hoped

58:57

it would be you. And if it

58:57

wasn't you that it would it

59:00

would be one of us. Others who

59:00

already have our passport. And

59:04

I've never been so happy to

59:04

because in the back of your

59:07

head. It's I like to travel I

59:07

like to go it's cool. Cool going

59:10

to Sweden, it's cool going to

59:10

Denmark, it would have been cool

59:13

to go to Belgium. Me. And I've

59:13

never been so happy to find out

59:19

that it's not even on the table

59:19

because the one that was gonna

59:23

go is the one who's getting a go

59:23

because he got his passport.

59:25

Tell me what that process was

59:25

like of getting your passport

59:29

waiting for that knowing that

59:29

you're going over there not just

59:33

to travel. I mean, obviously

59:33

there's some fuzzy stuff in

59:36

there too, but to go do work in

59:36

a prison in another country on

59:40

another continent.

59:41

Well, if so, it

59:41

was definitely a moment there

59:46

where I was like, There's no way

59:46

I'm going to make it. No,

59:51

because I didn't have my

59:51

passport and everyone's like,

59:53

Oh, it takes three to six months

59:53

to get your freakin passport.

59:56

And if you expedite it, it's

59:56

gonna do take like, two months.

1:00:01

And you know, the passport

1:00:01

agents is so far behind and it's

1:00:05

even on the internet and you

1:00:05

know, so it's got to be true.

1:00:08

And tiktoks And so I'm like

1:00:08

totally believing it. Right? Am

1:00:11

I alright? So

1:00:12

even if you get to

1:00:12

the spot in line in time, maybe

1:00:15

that won't even say yes, yeah.

1:00:17

So and then then

1:00:17

that when I finally got it, so I

1:00:20

looked all over the place for to

1:00:20

just make an appointment and

1:00:24

ever was the appointments were

1:00:24

booked out, you know, literally,

1:00:28

like five, six weeks just to get

1:00:28

the passport appointment at the

1:00:32

post office. But I found one

1:00:32

place where it was only like,

1:00:35

eight days later, but it was in

1:00:35

Napa or something like that

1:00:39

Sonoma Sonoma, which is, you

1:00:39

know, three hour drive from from

1:00:44

where I was staying. So I was

1:00:44

like, alright, well, screw we're

1:00:47

doing it. Get there, get to the

1:00:47

post office. Wait in the post

1:00:51

office for voc. I don't know

1:00:51

felt like all day. Like, I was

1:00:56

so irritated about this, too.

1:00:56

So, I mean, we're in this total,

1:01:00

like country wild wild west

1:01:00

town, right. Like literally

1:01:03

like, it's, it's beautiful town.

1:01:03

But you know, I expect you know,

1:01:08

there's places you tie your

1:01:08

horses up outside.

1:01:13

is the cutest,

1:01:13

beautiful city.

1:01:15

It is not a busy

1:01:15

city. It's very small, bougie

1:01:19

little city. There's three

1:01:19

people working at the post

1:01:23

office desks and I'm like, I

1:01:23

have an appointment. Probably on

1:01:26

break. No, they were all there.

1:01:26

But they're like, What are you

1:01:28

here for us? I'll have a passport appointment. And she's like, there's like three or four

1:01:30

people minus a listless? Let us

1:01:33

just knock this line down. And

1:01:33

then we'll help you Mike. Okay,

1:01:36

no, no problem. So they have no

1:01:36

urgency that I was experiencing

1:01:43

for whatever reason, I was

1:01:43

experienced urgency to get this

1:01:45

done, because now I'm watching

1:01:45

every 10 minutes go by on my

1:01:50

clock past my appointment date.

1:01:50

So I'm already getting super,

1:01:54

super like hot, irritated,

1:01:54

frustrated. And lo and behold,

1:01:58

there's a shitload of people

1:01:58

that live. And they all want it

1:02:02

to be at the post office at that

1:02:02

day, because that line just kept

1:02:05

getting longer and longer and

1:02:05

longer. And then like another

1:02:10

three other people come in, and

1:02:10

they're like, I have a passport

1:02:13

moment. I'm like, good luck with

1:02:13

that. I've been here since noon,

1:02:17

like six o'clock now. pissed.

1:02:17

And they're like, why I'm like,

1:02:21

I'm not joking. I've been here

1:02:21

all day. And they're waiting for

1:02:25

this line to go down. People are

1:02:25

still walking in. You know? And

1:02:29

I'm like, at what point did

1:02:29

enough people walk in? Yeah. So

1:02:36

I don't know if they felt the

1:02:36

dark. I was staring at him

1:02:39

through my eyes or what, but I

1:02:39

was clearly frustrated. And but,

1:02:45

you know, I even found a chair

1:02:45

and sat down in the middle of

1:02:47

the room. I do all kinds of

1:02:47

stuff. And and so finally they

1:02:50

see me. And so I got my

1:02:50

passport. And I'm like, oh,

1:02:54

yeah, I should take you long.

1:02:54

And so still I'm worried about

1:02:56

it. You know, because they we had to buy a plane tickets and the dates already coming. Right?

1:02:58

I got my passport in like, two

1:03:03

weeks.

1:03:04

You got it super,

1:03:05

super fast. Like,

1:03:06

did you know that it was gonna be a yes. Before you got it. Or like it was okay. So

1:03:08

what it wasn't just a matter of

1:03:12

does it get here in time?

1:03:13

Yeah, it wasn't

1:03:13

yet. Yeah, I didn't know just

1:03:15

because I've never applied for a

1:03:15

passport. I don't know if what

1:03:19

would you record holds? i All I

1:03:19

knew is all I knew is that that

1:03:25

was funny. All I knew is I didn't know

1:03:31

child support. Yeah. And that's

1:03:35

the big one. That's what you

1:03:35

told me that you'll do a

1:03:37

challenge like no. And so then I

1:03:37

was cool. So then I just found

1:03:41

support and restitution to the

1:03:41

girl. Yeah. And I had I didn't

1:03:44

own other I don't own either.

1:03:44

And so I just figured that now

1:03:47

it's just going to be waiting

1:03:47

for powers to be to get my stuff

1:03:50

pushed through. So I was

1:03:50

figuring, maybe, maybe not, but

1:03:54

it was super quick. And then I

1:03:54

took that was like, Oh, this is

1:03:57

a sign that I meant to be on

1:03:57

this trip. And so

1:04:02

I'd also like to say he waited an hour and a half. He was not a full day or

1:04:04

even a half day but to him

1:04:08

what the post office

1:04:08

didn't stay up until six. So I

1:04:10

yeah, I was gonna let that

1:04:10

slide. But yeah, it was

1:04:13

just it was an hour and a

1:04:13

half. And they

1:04:13

tried their best and I miss my

1:04:16

lunch. I had to wait longer for

1:04:16

that. I had a hangry Yeah, very

1:04:22

angry. Which is already

1:04:22

upsetting. You can see me I

1:04:25

don't miss meals. That day I did

1:04:29

at the post office.

1:04:29

Did you try using your inside

1:04:31

voice? Or did you didn't have

1:04:31

that? Yeah,

1:04:34

I didn't have that at the time. Okay, but there was a really cool couple.

1:04:36

That was also waiting. They I

1:04:40

was already there a good? Two,

1:04:40

three hours, at least

1:04:43

an hour 97 It was a

1:04:43

long time. I thought you kept

1:04:47

there overnight.

1:04:48

What if we could

1:04:48

I should have I had I had a

1:04:50

blanket. But it was very there

1:04:50

were there and they were owners

1:04:56

of some restaurant. I don't know

1:04:56

what made me think of that. But

1:04:58

they were owners of some

1:04:58

restaurant. They were talking

1:05:00

about these delicious foods they

1:05:00

were making. That's what made

1:05:03

you think when I came out,

1:05:05

you came back to

1:05:05

the car with the food and you're

1:05:07

like, we have to go to their

1:05:07

restaurant. But you didn't get

1:05:09

the name of it now, so we can't

1:05:11

know because

1:05:11

that would be weird. Like, you

1:05:13

don't just walk up to

1:05:15

when the food sounds

1:05:15

good. You ask what restaurant

1:05:17

they own.

1:05:17

I was too

1:05:17

focused on too hungry. How much

1:05:20

longer am I going to be at the

1:05:20

post office and how many more

1:05:23

people live in this town?

1:05:25

So you got your

1:05:25

passport? You know, it's a green

1:05:28

light to go to Belgium. Belgium

1:05:28

is a felony friendly country.

1:05:32

Yep. Unlike Canada and Australia

1:05:32

and a few others no

1:05:41

pressure there's

1:05:47

nowhere else where

1:05:47

felons can't go to Canada Movie

1:05:51

Trailer The you saw you know

1:05:51

that the trips that go your

1:06:00

booking tickets and you what was

1:06:00

I mean, what was trip like and

1:06:05

what's it like traveling as? As

1:06:05

an ex con?

1:06:12

I think it's a

1:06:12

lot like traveling has not been

1:06:15

a con just you know, I choose to shave

1:06:22

my head. Yeah. People that

1:06:26

aren't ex cons don't

1:06:27

they just wasn't

1:06:27

really easy. Breezy. Like no

1:06:29

issues. I mean, we're Yeah, no,

1:06:29

it was it was no problem at all

1:06:32

sums wasn't an issue going on.

1:06:32

And you weren't nervous or

1:06:34

anything like that? Oh, no, I

1:06:36

was. Because

1:06:36

when you see a freakin guy with

1:06:41

a badge, and the thing that has

1:06:41

to you know, I don't know what

1:06:44

to expect at customs. I'm

1:06:44

thinking Where do you fly

1:06:46

through? We went to New York to

1:06:46

Brussels. So you flew

1:06:51

from the states straight to

1:06:53

New York. That was my doing? I knew it'd be better. Yeah, it's way better.

1:06:57

Definitely. Yeah. Good call.

1:06:58

So didn't,

1:06:58

didn't know what to expect. And

1:07:02

I remember when I got up, I was

1:07:02

very talkative.

1:07:05

Yeah. very

1:07:05

talkative. Worst thing you can

1:07:08

be very talkative. So

1:07:10

here's my passport.

1:07:12

Together, obviously. Yeah,

1:07:14

I'm like, just my first time out of the country. I'm so excited and

1:07:16

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:07:18

And like, for you.

1:07:22

was super nice. He

1:07:22

likes you.

1:07:24

Yeah. That was he on

1:07:24

the plane and stuff.

1:07:27

So he's not a

1:07:27

great fire because I feel like

1:07:30

he's leaving the great fire. So

1:07:30

he was really good. He's on a

1:07:33

great fire though. And mostly

1:07:33

because he's so big. And he had

1:07:36

broken his back before. And so

1:07:36

it's just like, he needs space.

1:07:40

Like Rome. He needs me to get up

1:07:40

a lot. Yeah, he needs to be able

1:07:43

to move what we did do was we

1:07:43

thank you, Rick. Thank you,

1:07:47

Susan. Thank you, EPP we were

1:07:47

able to get comfort class. Yeah,

1:07:51

the comfort plus and that

1:07:51

actually my back is messed up

1:07:54

too. So it was like, today, like

1:07:54

night and day if we could have

1:07:57

gotten it from California to

1:07:57

JFK, I would have asked for that

1:08:00

too. But anyway, it helped. But

1:08:00

he was pretty bad anxiety

1:08:05

flying, and I get it. I don't

1:08:05

love flying either. And so but

1:08:08

he I have to say he held on to

1:08:08

himself really well, knowing

1:08:12

that like I've flown with him

1:08:12

before and he doesn't like it. I

1:08:15

thought he did great.

1:08:16

I did too. What's

1:08:16

the flying issues? Is it being

1:08:18

the high or is it when they

1:08:18

close the door? The same control

1:08:21

happens?

1:08:22

No, no, it's

1:08:22

100% the people it is I don't

1:08:27

like crowded spaces. Yeah, I

1:08:27

don't like people bumping into

1:08:30

me. Yeah, I don't like

1:08:32

that probably happens a lot too.

1:08:34

Yeah, yeah, I've

1:08:34

touched more but that's today's

1:08:40

sanitized shots what

1:08:41

you get for choosing the aisle? I told you you could have the window. I

1:08:44

don't like being rammed up.

1:08:47

Do you want to be crowded against a window? Or do you want a bunch of people's

1:08:49

butts touching oh,

1:08:51

I need your I

1:08:51

know your Yeah.

1:08:54

So you get to

1:08:54

Brussels. Fabulous conversation

1:08:59

as far as I can tell with the

1:08:59

customers.

1:09:01

They did they were adorable together and then we had to wait like two hours

1:09:03

for our luggage which again,

1:09:06

we read that that was gonna happen though. Yeah.

1:09:09

So just a quick

1:09:09

check in two hours or 20

1:09:11

minutes?

1:09:11

No, it was it was

1:09:11

it was not two hours but it was

1:09:14

at least an hour. Like I was

1:09:14

really surprised and nothing was

1:09:18

coming I had

1:09:19

I get that the

1:09:19

exaggeration of time from clay

1:09:21

by the way.

1:09:22

I've told you a

1:09:22

million times 15 minutes

1:09:25

everything in

1:09:25

Texas is 15 minutes away

1:09:31

never said I said

1:09:31

everything in Dallas is 3040

1:09:34

minutes away. That is definitely

1:09:34

wait a minute. This is 15

1:09:42

minutes 15 minutes I say 30 For

1:09:42

everything in Dallas it's 3040

1:09:47

minutes away. Can't even get to

1:09:47

the end of the driveway in 15

1:09:51

minutes. Okay just finished

1:09:51

saying bye to people. Okay, have

1:09:56

a good one. Okay, you to tell

1:09:56

you that's the Texas way math So

1:10:00

what what was I want to hear

1:10:00

about the trip the Belgian

1:10:06

aspect of the trip, you get

1:10:06

there, you go to the customers,

1:10:08

you get your bags, you go to the hotel, like,

1:10:11

go to Airbnb.

1:10:11

And I learned very quickly what

1:10:17

jetlag is, because you hear

1:10:17

about it, but you don't really

1:10:21

know about it until you're in it

1:10:21

right. And so jet lag sucks.

1:10:28

100% sucks, and

1:10:31

go enough, early

1:10:31

enough to have a day or two, or

1:10:34

did you go like, there's any class?

1:10:36

We had two days

1:10:36

thanks to Ariana. We weren't

1:10:38

going to do that. And she was

1:10:38

like, you need to do it. So.

1:10:43

Yeah, coming back,

1:10:44

not so much. We needed it. We still didn't adapt until the day before we left.

1:10:46

But tolerable though, it was

1:10:50

much more tolerable.

1:10:52

There was quite

1:10:52

a few times where, especially on

1:10:54

the first two days, or you're

1:10:54

just dead tired. You know, the

1:10:58

weirdest times right? There

1:10:58

times the times over there. But

1:11:01

there's, you know, every

1:11:01

morning, wake up, it'd be like

1:11:05

two or three in the morning.

1:11:05

Wake up. Are you awake? Yeah,

1:11:12

I'm like, Oh, are you like wide

1:11:12

awake? Oh, what do we and then

1:11:19

what's also I found really

1:11:19

frustrating was so like, the

1:11:24

weekend to us is like, Saturday,

1:11:24

Sunday. And I don't know why I'm

1:11:29

relating to this to the weekend.

1:11:29

But for me, it was them. It's

1:11:32

like Sunday, Monday. So

1:11:32

everything's closed Sunday,

1:11:36

Monday's until like in the

1:11:36

afternoon. Which when you're a

1:11:41

coffee drinker, that really

1:11:41

blows especially when you've

1:11:45

been up since two in the

1:11:45

morning. There's no coffee. So

1:11:47

we're finding looking at

1:11:47

searching for anywhere for

1:11:50

coffee at you know, these random

1:11:50

hours and which actually led to

1:11:56

a really cool adventure. Because

1:11:56

we found a coffee place like a

1:11:59

little this place opens like at

1:11:59

six or seven. And we had no

1:12:03

information on other than, you

1:12:03

know, I don't know Java 6am open

1:12:07

like cool. We're going there. 10

1:12:07

minute walk. And we walked there

1:12:11

and it's technically at the

1:12:11

train station. And there's a

1:12:14

whole bunch of stores open in

1:12:14

the train station so we found a

1:12:17

place to eat but as we're going

1:12:17

there we found like this most

1:12:20

awesome like farmers market that

1:12:20

was massively huge and had so

1:12:26

much good looking produce and

1:12:26

food and street food and morose

1:12:33

walk it through, we found this

1:12:33

one place. And I don't know if

1:12:36

it's called a crepe or what. But

1:12:36

it was like this pink square

1:12:41

tortilla thing but it was It

1:12:41

wasn't flat like a crepe was

1:12:43

fluffy. And most people are

1:12:43

spoke English or a little bit

1:12:48

you know enough to get by but

1:12:48

they the people that there they

1:12:51

didn't speak any and I was like,

1:12:51

I want one of those. Good.

1:12:56

Really good that you got you.

1:12:56

And he just throws a little bit

1:13:01

errors in there. This and that.

1:13:01

I knew he knows. He knows the

1:13:04

money lingo, you know, so it's

1:13:04

got that part. And then got

1:13:08

that. And I like rip it in half

1:13:08

like yours. No. She's like, Oh,

1:13:13

I'm just gonna have a bite of

1:13:13

this. Okay, well, good. We both

1:13:16

take a bite and we're like, this

1:13:16

is the best freakin thing we've

1:13:20

ever had in our life. So

1:13:23

I was like, you're not getting this other house back. I don't eat gluten and I was like,

1:13:25

I'm eating

1:13:29

it I was just blown

1:13:29

away. And so could you find out

1:13:32

what all they put in

1:13:33

it? No idea.

1:13:33

There was Honey. Yeah. And and

1:13:35

there was olives.

1:13:37

And like dill.

1:13:37

There's some other stuff. We

1:13:40

have no idea where? Tomato dried

1:13:40

tomatoes and dried tomatoes,

1:13:45

lettuce.

1:13:46

There's all kinds of good stuff. It was amazing. was

1:13:48

served hot. Yes.

1:13:48

Yes. Yeah. Did you go back there

1:13:52

again?

1:13:53

No, actually

1:13:53

after that everywhere. I seen a

1:13:55

bunch of officers. Yeah, I

1:13:55

wanted to go there. Because I

1:13:58

was like, they know

1:13:59

Oh, yeah. There

1:13:59

were a lot of police like around

1:14:02

the market. And so he followed

1:14:02

them from food place to food

1:14:05

place because he said that they

1:14:05

probably know what

1:14:08

are you telling me

1:14:08

that the American stereotype of

1:14:10

the police law enforcement

1:14:10

having an understanding of the

1:14:15

pastry industry? Yeah.

1:14:19

These officers

1:14:19

were it was potato in me.

1:14:22

Yeah, they were

1:14:22

at a meet. Yeah. Love. It was

1:14:27

some good for

1:14:28

most incredible market I've ever seen. I would fly back to Brussels just for

1:14:30

the market. It was amazing.

1:14:35

So one thing that I

1:14:35

don't know a whole lot about

1:14:37

Belgium or Brussels in

1:14:37

particular, but I do know that

1:14:40

they have a rather unusual

1:14:40

custom with their statues

1:14:43

situation.

1:14:46

The man can do this.

1:14:46

Yes.

1:14:49

If you're on my

1:14:49

Facebook friends, you've seen

1:14:51

some of the must see sites in

1:14:51

Belgium that were

1:14:56

I didn't I didn't

1:14:56

see that. I didn't I didn't see

1:14:58

any of that on Facebook. I just

1:14:58

know That from from old school

1:15:02

workdays. Yeah, related stuff,

1:15:02

so I just know how they're

1:15:06

everywhere, right? Yes, explain

1:15:06

it for those who might not know,

1:15:10

there's a lot of penises

1:15:13

in the most random places,

1:15:15

it's true. And they're

1:15:15

gonna weird. Yeah, but where the

1:15:18

mannequin depicts is like I

1:15:18

could be

1:15:25

wrong, right? It's

1:15:25

just what I've never heard the

1:15:27

name so

1:15:29

the CEO will

1:15:29

correct me in this if this is

1:15:31

not it, but like there's he had

1:15:31

the whole history when we went

1:15:34

with him but it's like was this

1:15:34

little mannequin and then it's

1:15:38

like a little baby is paying

1:15:40

it's like a foot

1:15:40

and a half tall. Yeah. Because

1:15:42

in the picture do you think it's

1:15:42

the way it's talked about? You

1:15:46

think it's gonna be this huge

1:15:46

statue? No, it's the size of a

1:15:51

two liter of soda. It's very

1:15:51

small.

1:15:55

Water waterfall

1:15:55

and it's Yeah. And so it's it's

1:15:57

literally like, it looks like

1:15:57

it's yp literally peeing. And it

1:16:01

was just one or several. So

1:16:01

there's the one that everyone

1:16:05

goes to and gets pictures out.

1:16:05

But then there's other ones that

1:16:08

you see. And so he got in the

1:16:08

souvenir shop and got half the

1:16:12

people that he knows the little

1:16:12

mannequin. Got a little Yeah,

1:16:15

why he was up

1:16:15

very little boy being wined top

1:16:17

holder. I got my son a little

1:16:17

statue of the little boy peeing

1:16:21

and he even looked at he's like,

1:16:21

What is this? Yeah, I was like,

1:16:24

I was trying to explain it to

1:16:24

him. He goes, You're so weird

1:16:27

that you got this and then he

1:16:27

went along. He's like, Well, I

1:16:30

guess will be a good

1:16:30

conversation starter. Surely put

1:16:32

it on his desk. And this

1:16:35

thing's called where you have like a bottle of alcohol and you put a thing in

1:16:36

it to pour spout. Oh, yeah, that

1:16:40

comes out

1:16:41

that idea. stores that

1:16:41

we saw I bind about that,

1:16:47

actually.

1:16:47

Yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean, being creative.

1:16:49

I think you

1:16:49

should actually cry. There's no

1:16:51

way I'm the first person to

1:16:51

think of that. Well, it is a

1:16:54

very small little boy. So yeah,

1:16:54

my child that poor but you know

1:17:02

take a long time to select glass

1:17:02

level. Shot. Oh, yeah.

1:17:14

Okay. So this is

1:17:14

this is welcome to the podcast.

1:17:23

So the class itself. So you're

1:17:23

I, I know, we hinted and talked

1:17:28

about actually a little bit

1:17:28

earlier about the tours and the

1:17:31

facility and the staff and the

1:17:31

the residents who live there the

1:17:35

detainees? What went down over

1:17:35

there? And I mean, because you

1:17:39

went over there. I mean, you

1:17:39

know, food and all the good

1:17:42

stuff aside, and whatever about

1:17:42

the mannequin EPIs thing. It

1:17:47

says official EPP business. So

1:17:47

what went down? What do you go

1:17:50

over there for what happened?

1:17:50

What was the point? You want me

1:17:52

to start? So it

1:17:52

was really cool. So we just

1:17:56

finished our GTP eight not too

1:17:56

long ago, which clay you were

1:18:00

part of you were my co pilot.

1:18:00

And for the cohort that was

1:18:07

taught in French, they were all

1:18:07

going to move forward. So

1:18:12

sometimes we put people in the

1:18:12

practice patch, we put people in

1:18:14

other spaces, they wanted to

1:18:14

move everyone forward. So we

1:18:17

broke it in people in them too.

1:18:17

Yeah, so broken into two

1:18:20

apprenticeships, six people in

1:18:20

one and five or six in the

1:18:24

other. And so what we did was we

1:18:24

flew Arianna in one of our

1:18:28

really seasoned guides to be a

1:18:28

lead guide there to train two

1:18:31

apprentices. We had the dean who

1:18:31

was the guide that's already out

1:18:35

there, trained two apprentices

1:18:35

and Cecile who is also already a

1:18:38

guide, train two apprentices and

1:18:38

then Dustin, myself and V pa

1:18:43

came in to help hold space, and

1:18:43

to help, you know, make sure

1:18:48

that it's like kind of going off

1:18:48

without a hitch because it's

1:18:50

that's a lot of people to train,

1:18:50

right. And the facility is scary

1:18:55

math. Yeah, yeah. And the

1:18:55

facility is incredible and

1:18:59

receptive. And you know, there's

1:18:59

no lock downs, and every pathway

1:19:03

is paved, and the wardens

1:19:03

meeting us at the door, and they

1:19:06

give kisses on the cheek, and

1:19:06

they've got coffee and tea and

1:19:11

pastries and nuts and fruits.

1:19:11

And

1:19:14

what did the

1:19:14

detainees were incredible for

1:19:17

clothes, regular street clothes,

1:19:19

regular street

1:19:19

clothes, and at every break,

1:19:21

with the exception of lunch,

1:19:21

although one day we got to have

1:19:23

lunch with the detainees. They

1:19:23

got to have the breaks with us.

1:19:26

Wow. So they're, they're

1:19:26

breaking bread with us on the

1:19:29

break. It was really incredible.

1:19:29

And what again, I want to say is

1:19:34

so exceptional about this

1:19:34

facility is we had a warden, the

1:19:37

warden and a director. We had

1:19:37

four corrections officers. We

1:19:42

had a social worker, and then we

1:19:42

had 26 men. And they all

1:19:47

participated. Like they were

1:19:47

there and they were in it. And

1:19:53

you know, I've seen a lot of

1:19:53

incredible classes happen and

1:19:57

I've never had the great

1:19:57

pleasure of being able to Have

1:20:00

an ambassador there the whole

1:20:00

time. It just, it never worked.

1:20:04

First, we had a hard time

1:20:04

getting like when I had started,

1:20:07

we had a hard time getting the

1:20:07

ambassadors into facilities,

1:20:10

like you were maybe the closest

1:20:10

and the easiest to get in 2000

1:20:15

miles away. Yeah, yeah. But it

1:20:15

was really hard to get

1:20:18

ambassadors in. And then we

1:20:18

didn't really do the compressed

1:20:20

schedule. And the compressed

1:20:20

schedule is where we take our

1:20:23

eight modules, and we do them

1:20:23

over a period of five days. So

1:20:26

it's three days on one day off

1:20:26

for homework and bio responses,

1:20:31

and all that. And then the final

1:20:31

day for closing is very intense.

1:20:36

But it was really incredible to

1:20:36

have Dustin there because the,

1:20:42

the buy in happens so much

1:20:42

quicker. Yeah. By the

1:20:47

participants, understandably.

1:20:49

When what is that

1:20:49

though? What if you could just

1:20:51

go a little bit more into what

1:20:51

is the buy in? What do you mean,

1:20:53

the buy in, which

1:20:53

is, you know, understandably,

1:20:57

many are skeptical when we go

1:20:57

in, and we want to do the

1:21:00

curriculum lead. And if you have

1:21:00

participants that have done the

1:21:04

class before, then you also have

1:21:04

buy in, but it's students,

1:21:07

participants that are really

1:21:07

trying to figure out I think,

1:21:10

going back to what you said,

1:21:10

Dustin, and you said, Clay, can

1:21:13

I trust? Can you hold me? Is

1:21:13

this real? Are you competent?

1:21:19

Where did you get your

1:21:19

information from? Who's vetted

1:21:21

you like, I mean, I remember

1:21:21

that I had when I think I told

1:21:24

you the story when I had a Type Five, and I didn't fully introduce myself one day, and he

1:21:25

leaned back and he was like, You

1:21:29

look like you're 22, you're

1:21:29

probably an intern. Not that

1:21:32

there's anything wrong with

1:21:32

these things? And how do I know

1:21:35

that you know what you're

1:21:35

talking about? And I was like,

1:21:38

Oh, right. I gotta actually

1:21:38

introduce myself. And thank you

1:21:41

for thinking, I look like I'm

1:21:41

22. Do you want to know your

1:21:43

education to want to do my

1:21:43

education, all of it, and I told

1:21:46

him, and he was like, alright,

1:21:46

I'll give you a chance. And he

1:21:50

came back. And he was wonderful.

1:21:50

But there is that he was a five,

1:21:54

two, by the way, a shocker. But

1:21:54

the piece where the trust gets

1:22:01

built quicker, because we have

1:22:01

the proof sitting next to us. I

1:22:05

don't need to try to tell you

1:22:05

that, you know, there's hope for

1:22:09

you when the hope is sitting

1:22:09

real time live next to me and

1:22:12

can speak for him or herself.

1:22:12

And can I tell the story about

1:22:17

the Type Six. So at the end of

1:22:17

day, one a day, it was actually

1:22:22

the middle of day two. So there

1:22:22

was someone in the room who

1:22:25

said, this is also kind of

1:22:25

common. I think this is a cult.

1:22:29

Yeah, I'm not sure I want to be

1:22:29

here. I'm really debating on

1:22:32

whether or not I'm going to leave. And he talked to a Type Five, that was an apprentice and

1:22:34

the apprentice said, can you

1:22:37

just give today a chance? Like,

1:22:37

I promise you it's not a call

1:22:40

such a good idea. Can you just give today a

1:22:42

chance wasn't that wasn't the first was the first day that was the first

1:22:44

day. But then the second

1:22:47

day, he came

1:22:47

back. And in the first class and

1:22:50

the second day, across the room.

1:22:50

He said I have a question for

1:22:53

Dustin. And this was in mod two.

1:22:53

And he said there's an English

1:22:59

translation. He was asking if

1:22:59

the translation. Yeah, he was

1:23:05

asking this one of the utterances, a fair amount of them spoke English, which was

1:23:06

incredible because it was reset.

1:23:10

Neither one of us speaks French,

1:23:10

so that was really nice. And V

1:23:13

PA and Ariana VIPA did the most

1:23:13

of the translation. Ariana,

1:23:18

Nadine also helped and that was

1:23:18

really incredible, because it

1:23:21

would have been so hard without

1:23:21

that. And we had the live

1:23:25

simultaneous translation. We had

1:23:25

these special things that V pa

1:23:29

had rented and put put in our

1:23:29

ears and she's talking to

1:23:31

children. It was incredible. It

1:23:31

was so awesome. And he he says I

1:23:36

have a question for Dustin and

1:23:36

Justin's like, Okay, shoot, and

1:23:40

I mean, right off the bat. I was

1:23:40

like everything about this kid.

1:23:44

I was like a hive. I feel like

1:23:44

he's a six. Like, I just I know

1:23:47

my people. I may not get every

1:23:47

type, right, but I'm almost

1:23:50

always right when I know

1:23:50

someone's a six and he goes,

1:23:54

everyone in this room is coming

1:23:54

in and trying to tell us what to

1:23:57

do. You're the only person who's

1:23:57

been incarcerated. Is this real?

1:24:01

Does it work? And if yes, how?

1:24:01

And Dustin gave this incredible

1:24:06

Dustin answer which was just

1:24:06

full of heart. really honest,

1:24:10

super blunt. There are many

1:24:10

times where you gave me answers

1:24:14

that I was like, oh my god, I

1:24:14

can't believe he said that. Like

1:24:17

one of the guys it was a Type

1:24:17

One said to him at the very end.

1:24:21

Great. So like you're done with

1:24:21

the work and Dustin was like the

1:24:24

work never ends like nice try.

1:24:24

And it's so exciting that the

1:24:29

work never ends. And so it what

1:24:29

a response man. Right. And

1:24:34

here's the thing. I can quote

1:24:34

y'all all day long, but I'm not

1:24:39

you. And so the fact that we

1:24:39

have that in the room and that

1:24:44

realness the grittiness, the the

1:24:44

the ability to be able to hold

1:24:49

oneself and to hold suffering

1:24:49

and to hold light. Ambassadors

1:24:52

can do that in a way that the

1:24:52

rest of us can't. It's not the

1:24:56

same no matter how good of a

1:24:56

guide we are. We just cannot do

1:24:59

that. And we're not coming in

1:24:59

with that same kind of

1:25:02

experience to back it up as

1:25:02

guides, especially a seasoned

1:25:05

and established guides, it's

1:25:05

different experience. And so for

1:25:09

me that buy in that happens when

1:25:09

Dustin Are you clay can sit

1:25:14

there and say that and be so

1:25:14

real in it like you could just

1:25:18

feel the whole room settle. You

1:25:18

could feel every six, sorry, I'm

1:25:22

doing the thing like sit back in

1:25:22

their chair. And it just, it was

1:25:27

the real answer. And so that's

1:25:27

really what ambassadors are

1:25:31

bringing is you are

1:25:31

transformation, you are hope you

1:25:35

are light, and not at the cost

1:25:35

of all the hard shit in life.

1:25:38

And that it's actually not that

1:25:38

easy when you get released. I

1:25:42

mean, you Dustin have had you

1:25:42

faced so many things clay,

1:25:45

you've been you're 10 years out

1:25:45

and you still face things that

1:25:48

are related to your past

1:25:48

incarceration. So the react like