0:04

Hello and welcome to the Enter the Bible

0:06

podcast where you can get answers or at least

0:08

reflections on everything you wanted to know about

0:11

the Bible, but were afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker

0:13

.

0:14

And I'm Katie Langston. And today

0:16

on the podcast, we have a very special guest,

0:19

Reverend Dr. Karl Jacobson,

0:21

who is a pastor at Lutheran

0:23

Church of the Good Shepherd in Minneapolis

0:25

and an Old Testament scholar,

0:28

author extraordinaire.

0:31

Welcome, welcome.

0:33

I'll take it you can just keep talking.

0:37

I'm so glad you're with us.

0:38

Thank you for the invitation.

0:39

Yeah, absolutely. So today

0:41

we have a listener question,

0:44

which I love that

0:46

it came it's a great question that came

0:48

in. And I also wonder about this. And

0:51

to you, dear listener or viewer

0:53

on YouTube, if you have a question, you

0:56

can submit it at our website: Enter

0:58

the Bible. Org. And we

1:00

do all that we can to

1:03

answer the questions that we receive, as many

1:05

as possible. So here is

1:08

the question 1

1:11

Samuel 28 is about Saul

1:13

consulting a medium who

1:16

lived in Endor, which

1:18

is also the name of the Ewok

1:20

Planet in Star Wars, Return

1:22

of the Jedi. Just saying. And

1:25

I noticed, Karl, that your

1:27

Bible.

1:29

Star Wars edition

1:30

Star Wars-y. So this is obviously why

1:32

we had to invite you on to answer this question.

1:34

What a happy accident. Exactly.

1:36

Uh, so anyway, it's consulting a medium

1:40

from Endor the Ewok planet.

1:42

Although it's not the Ewok Planet in the

1:44

Bible who brings Samuel's

1:46

spirit up from some place

1:49

of the dead. And he and Saul have a conversation.

1:52

Our questioner says, not exactly Sunday

1:54

school content. There's

1:57

a lot of other things going on in this story. I'd

1:59

love to hear your take on it and

2:01

how Jews and Christians have wrestled with this passage

2:04

so, yeah, it's a weird one.

2:06

You know, that's one of the ones when I

2:08

when I encountered it, I was like,

2:10

wow, this is this is exciting.

2:12

There's exciting stories in the Bible, but

2:15

hard to understand.

2:16

Yeah. And strange and. And

2:19

frequently. So some

2:22

place of the dead that sort of gets

2:24

at the an ongoing question

2:27

of. It's what

2:29

our tradition has inherited in terms of

2:31

what we think of as heaven and hell

2:34

and hell being,

2:36

frankly, a mostly medieval construction.

2:39

Not terribly biblical in

2:41

a lot of ways, because, you know, especially

2:44

the Old Testament understanding

2:47

of there being a land

2:49

of the dead, the place where everyone.

2:52

So everyone goes there, not just like not

2:54

just the bad ones.

2:55

Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I

2:57

mean it's confusing.

2:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,

3:01

so let's set up the context first. Sure.

3:03

Okay, so this is. This

3:06

is Saul, King Saul, right. Who

3:09

was the first king in Israel,

3:11

anointed by Samuel the prophet

3:14

/ judge/ priest? Samuel

3:17

kind of has several roles,

3:19

but mostly prophet.

3:21

And so Saul

3:23

starts out really good and then he angers

3:25

God. He doesn't obey God. There' various stories

3:28

that we don't need to get into completely. But

3:31

so God sends Samuel

3:33

to anoint David in

3:36

Saul's place. But that transition

3:39

takes a pretty long time. So Saul

3:41

continues to be king for quite a while.

3:44

He obviously feels threatened by David

3:46

for good reason. Was

3:49

it Nixon who said, or sometimes

3:52

paranoia is justified, right?

3:55

Just because you're a paranoid doesn't mean they're

3:57

not out to get you.

3:57

That's right. Something like that. Yeah. So

4:00

so David is kind of is very much

4:02

in the background here, but

4:04

throughout the books of Samuel, really first

4:07

and second Samuel, there's a lot of warring

4:09

with the Philistines, this neighboring

4:11

nation that are enemies of Israel.

4:14

And so that's the

4:17

the context here is so David has

4:19

fled from Saul,

4:21

is actually hiding out with the Philistines,

4:23

but is secretly fighting for Israel.

4:25

We don't have to get into that. But now but

4:28

then Saul is getting

4:30

ready to fight the Philistines yet again.

4:32

He sees the Philistine forces

4:34

assembled and they outnumber

4:36

the Israelites. He's terrified.

4:38

And so he wants to consult God

4:42

to find out what he should do and what and.

4:44

But God has basically

4:50

rejected Saul, really. And

4:52

does not reply. So in

4:54

verse six, 21st, Samuel 28

4:57

six when Saul inquired of the Lord,

4:59

the Lord did not answer him, not

5:01

by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.

5:03

Then Saul said to his servants, Seek

5:05

out for me a woman who is a medium so

5:08

that I may go to her and inquire of her.

5:11

A medium, of course, someone who can call up

5:13

spirits from the dead. And so Saul wants

5:15

to. Samuel has died in the

5:17

meantime, Of course. And so Saul wants to

5:19

consult with his old mentor,

5:22

Samuel. So that's the context. Saul

5:24

is terrified. That's the context. And

5:27

God is not speaking to him.

5:29

And then. And

5:32

then. He

5:35

goes to the medium and

5:37

then Samuel comes up

5:40

and he's like, why have you disturbed

5:42

me by bringing me up? Which

5:45

I think is awesome.

5:48

He's like, What are you doing?

5:50

Why are you bothering me?

5:51

Why are you bothering me? Am.

5:54

Yeah. And then like, doesn't

5:57

really. Well then he tells him some

5:59

stuff. That's kind of a bummer for Saul,

6:01

right?

6:02

And it's. It's a repeat. Yeah.

6:05

Of what's gone before. And in some ways what

6:07

the story is doing. It's intensifying

6:10

what's already happened. Okay, So

6:12

back in 1

6:15

Samuel 15, when Saul's

6:18

first rejected as king because.

6:23

But he's told that they're supposed to wipe

6:25

out their enemy entirely, take

6:27

no spoil. And.

6:30

He takes a bunch of sheep

6:33

and keeps them. And

6:35

then Samuel says, has

6:38

the Lord has great delight in burnt offerings and

6:40

sacrifices, as in obedience to the voice

6:42

of the Lord. Answer: No.

6:45

Surely to obey is better than sacrifice

6:47

to heed, than the fat of rams, for

6:49

rebellion is no less a sin than divination.

6:52

And so the king is going to be torn away

6:54

from him. And now that we get this divination

6:56

story, Yeah, so sin

6:58

piled on top of sin, disobedience

7:01

piled on top of disobedience. And the irony

7:03

is in this story,

7:06

Saul had driven the mediums out of

7:08

Israel as he was supposed to,

7:10

and now.

7:12

He's like, Uh oh, I got to bring one back.

7:13

Exactly right. And like Proverbs

7:16

says, a

7:18

fool returns to his folly like a dog

7:20

returns to its vomit. That's exactly

7:23

what Saul was doing.

7:23

What Saul's doing here. Yeah.

7:25

Yeah, yeah. And even she,

7:27

I mean, again, there's some

7:29

irony in the story because the, the medium

7:31

says to him, well, surely you know what Saul

7:33

did. Speaking.

7:35

Speaking to Saul?

7:36

Yes.

7:36

He's in disguise.

7:37

He's in disguise.

7:38

He's in disguise. He doesn't want anyone to know that

7:40

he's going to consult the medium. Yeah. So

7:43

then he's cut off the mediums and the wizards

7:45

from the land. Why are you laying a snare

7:47

for my life? To bring about my death?

7:50

But then and then he's like.

7:52

Yeah, but I'm. But I'm. Yeah.

7:55

No, no one's going to hurt you. He

7:57

says to her.

7:59

But then it's interesting that when Samuel's

8:01

spirit comes up.

8:03

Yeah.

8:03

The woman said to Saul, Why have you deceived me?

8:05

You, Saul? So she has that insight

8:08

from Samuel.

8:09

Exactly.

8:09

Right. And it's Saul. And then, of

8:11

course, Samuel's message is

8:14

is really harsh, right?

8:16

Pronounces judgment. This

8:19

is verse 18, because you did not obey the voice

8:21

of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath

8:23

against Amalek. Therefore, the Lord has

8:25

done this thing to you today. Moreover,

8:28

here's the crux of the matter. The Lord will give

8:30

Israel, along with you, into the

8:32

hands of the Philistines. And tomorrow

8:34

you and your son shall be with me.

8:37

The Lord will also give the army of Israel

8:39

into the hands of the Philistines. So yea,

8:42

be with me. In other words, in the

8:44

underworld. R

8:45

Right

8:45

Yeah. So Saul's Samuel

8:47

prophesies Saul's death, right?

8:49

Yeah.

8:50

Which happens relatively quickly then in

8:52

the story in the next two chapters.

8:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:55

So can I ask a couple of questions

8:58

about this? Because it is, it is a

9:00

weird story. So, number one. Um.

9:04

Why is

9:06

divination such a bad

9:09

thing? Like,

9:11

I know. I know people who like.

9:15

Who do tarot cards?

9:17

Yeah, they do tarot cards. But I know people who

9:19

think they have like, a special connection

9:21

to the dead. And it

9:23

makes me feel a little like,

9:26

kind of, you know, sketched

9:28

out by it. But I mean, if

9:31

there are people who have such

9:33

abilities, you know,

9:36

why is that bad?

9:41

I would say based on

9:44

this story, it

9:47

seems to me. What

9:50

that sort of power or

9:52

going to that place to get answers

9:55

when God has already

9:57

not answered. You know,

9:59

it's you're trying to do an end around.

10:02

An end run around.

10:03

To something you're not supposed to have. Yeah.

10:06

So I guess I wouldn't

10:08

necessarily know how to speak

10:10

to divination or or magic,

10:12

right?

10:13

Right.

10:13

In general. But what's

10:15

happening in this story.

10:16

It's pretty like frowned upon

10:19

throughout all of Scripture.

10:21

It's outlawed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

10:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:26

And then there's the story

10:28

of the little girl in Acts who

10:30

has that power, but God

10:33

uses it for God's purposes

10:35

with Paul and the.

10:37

Yeah.

10:38

Um. It's it's

10:40

dangerous. That's the problem. And it's also

10:42

it's it's a snare in terms of.

10:46

Right. So Saul says

10:48

to this woman, you know, she puts

10:50

him on the spot, right. Don't you know what

10:52

Saul did? Right. And behind

10:54

that is the command that God gave that this

10:57

should happen. Yeah. And then Saul

10:59

swears by the Lord's name, right? So

11:01

uses the Lord's name in vain.

11:04

Yeah, it's. It's maybe

11:07

the most explicit example of the

11:09

first commandment being

11:12

shattered.

11:12

Yeah.

11:13

That's the danger, at

11:16

least in this story.

11:17

Yeah. It does seem

11:19

like there's sometimes

11:22

with the legal

11:24

material like, again, this is mediums,

11:27

wizardry is is a

11:29

divination is outlawed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy,

11:31

it's not always explicitly said why

11:34

like for instance famously in

11:36

Leviticus 19, you're not supposed to get tattoos.

11:38

Well, well, yeah. Sorry, Katie.

11:41

It's not that one.

11:43

It's never it's never said why

11:46

and I and the same is true with

11:48

the divination stuff. But I think, I

11:50

think you've, you've hit on it.

11:52

I think that it's

11:54

doing an end run around. God, it's

11:57

dabbling in things that are dangerous.

11:59

Right. That there's there seems to be

12:01

an understanding that there are

12:03

spiritual forces that one

12:05

should not associate

12:08

with. Right.

12:09

And part I also think

12:11

part of what's going on in the legal material,

12:13

Leviticus in particular, is

12:16

it's about separating

12:19

behaviors.

12:20

Yes.

12:21

From Israel's neighbors.

12:22

Right. Sure.

12:23

Right. When, you know, syncretism,

12:26

bringing other forms of worship into

12:29

worship of the Lord is a

12:31

huge problem in scripture all over the place.

12:33

That's a huge problem today. Well.

12:35

Yeah. And and it's taken

12:38

very seriously. And so from

12:40

the way people dress, yeah, probably

12:43

to some of the things they're allowed or

12:45

not allowed to eat.

12:46

Right.

12:47

And much of that is about.

12:50

Um. Foreign religious

12:52

practice. I think the most important

12:55

example of that is also in Leviticus.

12:57

For the longest time, nobody

13:00

understood where the prohibition against

13:03

boiling a kid in its mother's milk

13:05

came from. Yeah, it sounds tasty.

13:10

It's a baby goat. Not a human kid, right?

13:13

Correct.

13:13

Thank you. Just. Just needed to clarify

13:15

that. Not a human. That's correct. Very

13:17

good.

13:18

So then

13:20

a discovery was made of

13:22

a spell used in

13:25

a neighboring religion. And I don't remember

13:27

what it's called, so I can't direct you to it. But

13:29

where that's part of this ritual practice.

13:31

I see.

13:32

So maybe that's why it's prohibited.

13:35

Because then you're worshiping another

13:37

God, perhaps like your neighbors.

13:39

Right? Yeah. Over and over again

13:41

in Leviticus, that's. You know, you

13:44

shall be holy for I, the Lord your God am holy,

13:46

Holy there not like holier

13:48

than thou, but holy as in sanctified.

13:51

Separated.

13:52

Hmm.

13:53

One of my friends calls it weird,

13:56

right? To be weird. And the best sense

13:58

of that word like set apart,

14:00

not participating in these other

14:03

distinct.

14:04

Yeah, distinct.

14:05

I think that's a good way to. To. Right.

14:07

Like you're to reflect

14:09

the kind of life that God

14:12

designed for you,

14:15

for human beings. Right. Which

14:17

also includes. Don't dabble

14:19

in the dark arts. Right. Don't.

14:21

Yeah. Right.

14:22

Don't don't try

14:25

to control a power that you cannot control

14:27

because it may. It will get the better

14:29

of you.

14:30

Yeah.

14:30

I think about an article I read. This

14:32

is several years ago now about the

14:34

rise in exorcisms. Yeah. In

14:37

today's world. Yes. And and you

14:39

know that that there are actually

14:42

Catholic priests trained as exorcist

14:44

and that they've gotten kind of inundated

14:47

with more and more calls for exorcism.

14:50

And it's not the stuff of horror you

14:52

know, it's it's real problems, real

14:56

and a real

14:58

issue. And and the the

15:01

thing I remember about that article most

15:03

is that these

15:05

priests were asked, well, why do you think this is happening?

15:07

And they said, well, one reason is that people

15:10

are fascinated with the occult. Yeah,

15:12

right.

15:13

With it's such a thing right now, like it's

15:15

all over. Yeah. You know,

15:18

I mean, there's celebrity psychics.

15:21

I was just listening to a podcast that

15:23

had a celebrity psychic on and I was like, Oh,

15:25

this sounds sketchy or, you know,

15:27

tarot cards are super

15:30

all the rage right now and witchcraft. I

15:32

know people who think of themselves as

15:34

as witches. And I know it sounds

15:36

I mean, I hear myself say that and

15:38

it sounds like so bizarre,

15:40

but it really is a thing

15:43

that's come that's coming back in sort

15:45

of a post-modern world

15:47

where people are like kind

15:50

of letting go of,

15:52

you know, traditional orthodoxies

15:54

and sort of trying to find

15:57

things that resonate with them. And I think they

15:59

sometimes are playing around with things that

16:01

aren't. Aren't awesome.

16:04

Like, I have a friend who had

16:06

some issues with feeling

16:09

in in spiritual warfare

16:12

as a result of some, like,

16:14

divination she had sought out.

16:18

So yeah, it's

16:20

so. Yeah, it's a thing. This story

16:23

may be more relevant than we than we think,

16:25

but yeah, I mean, for today's

16:27

world. But it is this. Yeah, it's a

16:29

kind of warning against being

16:31

like other people surrounding

16:34

them and a warning against

16:36

playing with forces that and. And yeah, there's

16:39

a reason.

16:39

Right? Right.

16:40

There's a reason for it. It can be dangerous.

16:43

Right, right, right, right, right.

16:44

So my other question then.

16:46

Sorry, I'm just...

16:47

No, it's good

16:48

Asking all the questions. But my other question

16:50

is, so where where

16:52

is Saul then? Like

16:54

what? And like.

16:57

He. An old man is coming

16:59

up. He's wrapped in a robe like wear.

17:02

Where, Samuel you mean?

17:03

Yep. I meant to say Samuel. I said Saul, but

17:05

I meant to say Samuel. Like, where is he then?

17:07

Like, he's...

17:11

In Sheol apparently

17:12

in the realm of the dead.

17:14

And and that would have been understood

17:17

to be sheol, which is

17:19

the realm of the dead.

17:20

Yeah. Do you want to talk a bit about Shell?

17:22

Well, yeah. Again, it's. It's not.

17:24

It's not hell. Right. The

17:27

way we might think of

17:29

it, because of our tradition or

17:31

whatever, it's. It's the land

17:33

of the dead. And it's where everyone goes.

17:35

Okay. And it's probably

17:38

correct me Kathryn, if I'm wrong, but it's. It's.

17:41

That's a pretty common ancient near Eastern

17:44

construct. That there

17:46

is a place where the dead go. And

17:51

there isn't much talk about, you know,

17:53

whether it's reward or

17:55

punishment. Everybody goes,

17:57

yeah, I know that in

18:01

in Mesopotamia it's

18:04

kind of confined to households,

18:07

right? So the dead reside

18:10

below the house where they lived.

18:12

Oh, wow.

18:14

But there's nothing like that in

18:16

the Bible as far as I'm aware

18:19

anyway.

18:19

Yeah. So. Sheol all seems to be

18:21

kind of a synonym for the grave

18:24

because in the Psalms. And correct

18:26

me if I'm wrong, Karl. Uh,

18:28

sheol is is understood

18:31

as a kind of confining place and to

18:33

and to be saved from Sheol or drawn up from

18:35

Sheol is to be in a wide open space.

18:38

Right. So it's it's very similar

18:40

to to the grave.

18:43

I mean, that's the kind of features

18:45

that Sheol has. It's it's not punishment,

18:48

you're right. But it's it's kind of

18:50

a just.

18:51

Sort of a bummer of a place.

18:53

Yeah.

18:53

I mean do you get out?

18:54

It's not someplace you want to be.

18:56

Do you get out of Sheol and are you, like, conscious

18:58

there? Sorry. That's like.

19:02

Well I mean yeah

19:05

certainly as as we move through the Old Testament,

19:08

through the Hebrew Bible by Daniel,

19:11

one of the later books in the Old Testament, you

19:13

have a you have a full

19:15

fledged belief in the resurrection of the dead. Yeah.

19:18

The dead shall be raised from

19:20

from, from the grave. Right,

19:22

Sheol? Yeah. And we'll live again.

19:24

So I if you're interested

19:27

listeners, if you're interested in this topic

19:29

from a Jewish perspective, my

19:31

own teacher, Jon Levenson, wrote a lovely

19:34

book on resurrection. It's

19:36

called Resurrection and the Restoration of Israel

19:38

The Ultimate Victory of the God of Life.

19:41

Wow.

19:41

Which I love. And that title

19:43

and the book is wonderful. And he says

19:46

and I think this is exactly right, that in the Old

19:48

Testament, we don't have until

19:51

later books like Daniel a full

19:53

fledged belief in resurrection. It's more

19:55

this kind of shadowy

19:57

afterworld.

19:58

It's more ambiguous.

19:59

It's more ambiguous. But then by the time

20:01

of Daniel and certainly by the time of the New Testament,

20:04

or at least the Pharisees,

20:07

who usually get a bad rap, right? The

20:09

Pharisees believed in the resurrection

20:11

of the body, the resurrection of

20:13

the dead, which is where Jesus

20:16

agrees with them. Right. And when Jesus

20:19

is is kind of mediating that controversy

20:22

between the Pharisees and Sadducees,

20:24

who don't believe in it.

20:25

They don't believe Jesus. Don't believe in it. Right. Jesus

20:27

says God is God of Abraham,

20:29

Isaac and Jacob, and God

20:31

is God of the living, not the dead. He

20:33

says to the Sadducees, You are completely wrong.

20:36

Huh

20:36

So it's a it's a kind of development

20:39

of thought. Whereas here

20:41

and I think in other books of the Old Testament,

20:43

you have this kind of underworld

20:45

Sheol eventually

20:48

the fuller realization comes about

20:50

that know that God is a God of

20:52

life and that and that

20:54

life wins. God wins. Belief

20:56

in the resurrection.

20:57

That's just as a to dovetail a little

20:59

bit, it's really important that your

21:02

observation that there in

21:04

the Hebrew Bible in the Old Testament there

21:06

is a development. Yeah many developments

21:09

of thought. Just

21:13

circling back to the way we tend to think about

21:15

God's Word, what the Bible is right.

21:18

It all has to agree with every other

21:20

part of it. Right? Because it's got to be consistent.

21:23

It's not that simple. It was written over a vast

21:26

amount of time by different

21:28

people. And there there are changes

21:31

and developments in thought and theology.

21:33

I mean, my favorite example of that is

21:35

the and I'm sorry, we're totally.

21:37

No, no, this I mean this. I think it all

21:39

relates. Yeah.

21:41

The when people say

21:43

there's just

21:46

a couple of monotheistic religions,

21:48

and the Old

21:50

Testament is an example of it. It's actually

21:52

not true. Eventually,

21:55

right in the later material. Yeah. And

21:58

in the prophetic body,

22:01

it's monotheistic. Other

22:03

gods are simply dismissed. But. But in many

22:05

places it's what we would actually call

22:08

henotheistic, meaning the

22:10

Old Testament expects obedience to the

22:12

Lord and.

22:13

The God of Israel.

22:14

Correct. And the exclusion of all

22:17

other gods which are out there.

22:19

Right. Right.

22:20

And again. Well, so maybe this does get us back

22:22

to this.

22:23

Yeah, it does, actually.

22:23

Yeah. Um, it's. It's faithfulness

22:26

to the Lord, the God of Israel. That

22:29

is Saul's problem. Yeah. He. He

22:31

doesn't stay faithful. Yeah.

22:34

Well, and in and those

22:36

other gods. Right. That are,

22:39

you know, the, the sort of pagan

22:41

gods of the other lands or they're not the creator

22:43

of the they're so

22:46

they could be. I don't know. Tell

22:48

me if I'm like way in the deep

22:50

end at this point but they could

22:52

be maybe somewhat

22:55

analogous to other

22:57

spiritual forces, other powers

22:59

and principalities, which which Paul

23:02

tells us exists, you know.

23:06

That those are also

23:08

in the world. But God

23:11

is a ruler

23:13

over the powers and principalities

23:16

and the the the false

23:18

gods, the other powers and is

23:20

the creator of all that is. And that's

23:22

pretty consistent throughout all

23:24

the Old Testament.

23:25

Yeah, for sure.

23:26

Yeah. Yeah. It's a really bold statement that

23:28

in the beginning it's the Lord, the

23:30

God of Israel, who is the creator of

23:32

the universe. And and in the Exodus

23:34

story, the Lord, the God of Israel defeats

23:36

all the gods of Egypt, including Pharaoh himself.

23:39

Right. So, yes, even

23:41

if there are other spiritual forces,

23:43

Right. God is the God

23:45

of Israel is the

23:49

true God, the supreme God, the

23:51

God who is

23:53

not is

23:56

is over all these other

23:58

forces. Yeah.

24:00

Well and so again in this story

24:04

when the woman raises Samuel

24:06

and it says, I see

24:08

a divine being. Divine

24:10

being is Elohim.

24:13

Huh

24:14

She thinks she sees a god. Which

24:16

maybe that's another indication of why

24:19

divination is so dangerous. She doesn't

24:21

recognize what she's called that.

24:25

Boy. That's a thing that happens, I think.

24:28

You know, people think they it's

24:30

so. It's so tricky. You could be,

24:32

you can be deceived. You can you

24:34

can be deceived by yourself. You could be deceived by

24:36

other people to think that

24:38

you are hearing a word

24:40

from God or hearing a word from, you

24:42

know, divine light or whatever.

24:44

And maybe, like, maybe you're

24:46

really not.

24:47

Yeah. Yeah.

24:49

Scary.

24:51

Yeah. I feel like we've, we've, we've

24:53

gotten to very serious stuff.

24:54

Yeah. Really.

24:55

And I think we have to affirm

24:57

again. Right. What we already said that the God

25:00

that we worship, the God of Israel, the God

25:02

of revealed in Jesus Christ is,

25:05

is the creator of the world. And, and

25:07

the one true God and and the Old

25:09

Testament and New Testament are consistent.

25:11

That's right.

25:11

About that proclamation. So

25:13

so we don't have to fear these other

25:15

spiritual forces. And

25:18

we shouldn't dabble with them.

25:19

Don't seek them out.

25:20

Yeah. Yes.

25:22

Huh? Wild.

25:25

I feel like my my

25:27

you know, Western skepticism is like

25:29

blaring in the back of my mind. But at the same

25:32

time, I've sort of, you know, do

25:34

things that there's something to

25:36

this, you know what I mean?

25:37

Yeah.

25:38

For sure.

25:39

Well, thank you, Karl. Yeah. Enlightening

25:42

us about this very strange story.

25:43

Pleasure to be with you. And it's fun to read,

25:46

you know, some of the stuff that we tend to neglect.

25:48

Yeah, for sure.

25:49

Like, yeah, this does not come up in the lectionary.

25:54

I'm going to do a sermon series on it. Just kidding.

25:56

I don't think I will. Yeah, but

25:58

thank you so much. Appreciate it. And what

26:00

a what an interesting conversation. And

26:03

thank you, our listeners

26:05

and viewers, for being with us on this

26:07

episode of the Enter the Bible podcast.

26:10

You can get more resources,

26:12

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26:14

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26:16

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