0:00

But the idea is there's two features of

0:02

the world. One is where remote work

0:04

is soulless, isolated,

0:07

and inhuman, and we just become little

0:10

automatons and cogs in the wheel. And

0:12

then there's this other narrative people

0:15

are pushing where we have to come back in the office,

0:17

but then you have to commute for two

0:20

hours a day. You can only work

0:22

in jobs in your city. You don't

0:24

get an opportunity to travel the world. And

0:27

so we're saying that there's a third

0:29

way.

0:30

I've

0:34

been worth millions of dollars multiple

0:36

times and then worth zero multiple

0:38

times. So I basically

0:41

spent most of my money that I had

0:44

and I, well, made my

0:46

next big mistake, which

0:50

was because

0:50

you want to prove that you are a good

0:53

entrepreneur. And that's a terrible reason to

0:55

start a startup. And that's what I did.

0:57

You roll with the punches and entrepreneurship,

1:00

everything's just 10X amplified. So

1:02

you know, the highs are higher and the lows are lower, but

1:04

it's been okay with me because I, well,

1:07

I'll save that lesson for later.

1:10

Brett Martin here, newly minted 40 year

1:13

old and current location is

1:15

Santa Teresa, Costa Rica. Although

1:18

I would say my home address, according

1:20

to the state of New York is Brooklyn,

1:22

New York, Williamsburg.

1:23

My business is I'm the co-founder

1:25

and president of Kumo Space, which is

1:28

a, builds virtual offices for remote

1:30

distributed and hybrid teams where they show

1:32

up and work every day. And I

1:34

also am the co-founder and GP of

1:37

Charge Ventures, which is a premium

1:39

pre-seed venture capital based out

1:41

of New York.

1:42

Okay. Well, could you tell us a little bit about Kumo

1:44

Space first?

1:45

Yeah, happy to. So Kumo Space

1:47

is solving the problem of why

1:50

everyone's being dragged back to the office. Jesse

1:52

Jassy, CEO of Amazon wrote

1:54

a long letter about why he's bringing everyone

1:57

back into the office starting May 1st for three

1:59

days a week. And he talked

2:01

about basically communication. They built a

2:03

collaborate, tap people on the shoulder, get quick answers.

2:06

He talked about the sense of connection

2:09

and camaraderie and the relationships

2:11

we build at work and how you have to build trust

2:13

by spending time with people. And then

2:15

he danced around this sort of accountability

2:18

that comes from showing up to work every day to

2:21

see your team, be seen by your team, lead

2:23

by example. And I, ironically,

2:26

even though we build virtual offices, remote

2:28

office, I agree with him. And on all of

2:30

those points, the only difference is that we think

2:33

that we can provide those benefits

2:35

of culture, collaboration,

2:37

and accountability via

2:40

virtual office, a piece of software,

2:42

and we can do it at a 20th

2:44

of the cost of physical real estate. And

2:47

so essentially, you know what KumoSpace

2:49

is, it's a piece of software that you can

2:51

run on your browser, you can run your desktop, you can run on

2:53

your mobile phone. It's kind of like

2:55

a two-dimensional little office. So

2:57

it's like a diagram, a blueprint,

2:59

except it's flushed in and you

3:02

have full furniture and plants and

3:04

whiteboards and video screens

3:06

and conference rooms. And you can

3:09

sign in kind of like you do with Slack every

3:11

day in the morning, except the difference is that rather

3:13

instead of little green dots or

3:15

orange dots, people are their videos, their

3:17

avatar is their video. And you can see

3:19

we have an office that we work out of, a virtual

3:22

office in KumoSpace. And every morning around 10 a.m.

3:25

we're engineers mostly, so we got kind of a late

3:27

start and late nights. But I start

3:30

to see my 27, 28, 30 employees start

3:32

trickling in and they'll go to their office

3:35

or they'll go to common areas, pods,

3:37

and just start working together. You know, they might

3:39

catch up on their days and share some

3:42

jokes and then start screen-sharing,

3:44

you know, whatever work they're doing is, they might open

3:46

up a virtual whiteboard and start collaborating

3:48

on it, or they might just put their headphones

3:51

on. We have a whole concept of status and

3:53

you can say, hey, I'm focusing and I'm just grinding

3:55

on some work or doing a sales call right

3:57

now, maybe outside of KumoSpace.

3:59

So really, we're just trying to provide

4:02

a place where people who are working

4:04

remotely can show up to work together every

4:06

day.

4:07

And so the idea is, if I am working

4:09

from home, like people were, especially during

4:11

the pandemic, obviously, that you just kind of

4:13

have your webcam video on the whole time

4:15

you're working, just for a feeling of like, okay,

4:17

I can see someone comes into my room, like you

4:20

said, kind of two dimensional, and they can

4:22

see that I'm working. And now I don't feel as alone,

4:24

even though I'm still alone at home

4:26

physically, but maybe I see my coworker

4:29

there and they're working and that kind of gives me some

4:31

accountability. Is that kind of the idea?

4:33

It's funny, we have these organizations that

4:35

are either 10 people, 100 people, 10,000 people, and

4:40

everyone's working all day from

4:42

home, from Costa Rica,

4:45

from the coffee shop. But yet

4:47

there's no sense of togetherness, right? You might have

4:50

people on a hundred different Zoom calls

4:52

having a hundred separate meetings and chatting about

4:54

sales and marketing and customer success

4:56

and doing client calls. Literally,

4:58

no one is aware that anyone else is doing anything.

5:01

Sure, you have a calendar and you might

5:03

be able to see your

5:03

team's calendar and see what

5:05

they're up to, but you're not going to just barge in into

5:08

a Zoom meeting of two people,

5:10

five other people that you weren't invited

5:12

to. They're going to look and say, oh, why is Brett

5:14

in the waiting room? That's so weird. He's not supposed

5:17

to be here. It's awkward. I wouldn't

5:19

want to do it and they would be confused why. Whereas

5:21

if you think about in a physical office,

5:24

we see and feel and

5:26

feel connected, physically, to the

5:28

people that we're working with. You can see

5:30

conversations. You can see that the engineering team is having

5:33

a meeting

5:33

and I can stop by and wrap on

5:35

the glass door and say, hey, gentlemen,

5:38

just wanted to check in. When's that new version of the mobile app going

5:40

to be out? And they can say, Brett, yeah,

5:42

it's delayed a day, but we're going to get it to

5:44

you by Friday. Okay, great. Right?

5:47

That sort of quick little informal

5:49

ad hoc interaction is

5:52

not possible with our current work

5:54

tools, Zoom, Slack teams. Whereas

5:57

it was possible at a physical office and

5:59

now it is.

5:59

possible virtually in your

6:02

KumaSpace virtual office. When

6:04

did you start KumaSpace?

6:06

It's a classic pandemic baby. I

6:08

was running my pre-seeds,

6:10

seed stage venture capital fund charge ventures

6:12

and doing a bunch of deals during the pandemic

6:15

remote. When the pandemic hit, I

6:17

used to throw a monthly networking event for

6:19

mid-career professionals. They would come and

6:21

share deals, share angel investors. The

6:24

pandemic hit and everyone said, oh, why don't

6:26

you bring this online? And I said,

6:28

I don't really want to give a PowerPoint presentation

6:30

to 50 of my friends every month. That doesn't sound

6:33

fun for me. It doesn't sound fun for them. And I

6:35

kind of realized that, wow, there was no

6:38

technology even in 2020 available to

6:41

have synchronous multiple

6:43

group interactions, many to many interactions

6:45

online. And what is a synchronous

6:48

many to many interaction? Well, that describes

6:50

lots of interactions we have in the physical world. It

6:52

describes events. It describes networking

6:54

events. It describes classrooms

6:57

with breakouts and workshops. It

6:59

describes parties, social

7:01

events, birthday parties. And it also describes

7:03

offices, right? Where you have lots

7:05

of different people all in small groups collaborating

7:08

together and people moving fluidly

7:11

from group to group, right? As

7:13

an executive, I might sit in a marketing meeting, then

7:15

I might go check out a product meeting,

7:17

and then I might go talk to the engineers

7:19

fluidly without scheduling anything.

7:22

So we sort of realized that that was

7:24

not possible. There was no technology. You have products

7:26

like Zoom and Teams where you have one

7:29

audio channel. So you can have one person

7:31

talking, and then you might have 50 people listening,

7:33

but as opposed to in an office where you

7:35

might

7:36

have 10 groups of five all

7:38

interacting separately at the same time.

7:40

And so I reached out to my

7:42

co-founder and our CEO, Yang, and I said,

7:44

Yang, look at this problem. And less than

7:47

two weeks later, he showed me a prototype

7:49

of what Kuma Space looks like. And it was totally

7:51

bare bones, but we instantly saw

7:53

that there was something there. Yeah, that was May 2020.

7:57

We had launched it by August 2020.

7:59

started growing organically as people shared

8:02

it as a way of coming together online.

8:04

And when you said Yang, your co-founder,

8:07

was that from the venture fund

8:09

that you're also a part of, or explain that a little bit?

8:11

Yeah, so I was just purely doing

8:13

venture stuff at the time. Yang and I actually have

8:16

known each other for over a decade. He's

8:18

been my partner for all of my companies. We built

8:20

our first company called Sonar, back

8:23

around 2010 together. He

8:25

built our Android app, then we built a company

8:27

called Switch. He was our technical co-founder

8:29

for that. And then in this one, he's

8:31

the CEO. So whenever I have a

8:33

technical idea that looking for a smart

8:36

opinion on, Yang went to Princeton

8:38

and worked at Google, he's my go-to guy.

8:40

Well,

8:40

that makes sense. And then I guess as far

8:42

as coming to space over the last couple of years, what

8:45

have you grown to as far as clients

8:47

and revenue and all that good stuff?

8:50

Now, I mean, we have millions of users.

8:53

We have tens of thousands of teams in

8:55

there that are using it. And if you

8:57

use it for an office, a virtual office, folks

8:59

are using it for six plus hours

9:02

a day. So people are actually spending tens

9:04

of millions of hours a month in KumoSpace

9:06

working. And it's been,

9:09

I guess, what, two and a half years, but it's really,

9:11

it's flown by. And most of the clients

9:13

that you have who end up using it, could you just give us

9:15

a rundown? So maybe people could check it out. And if

9:17

they wanted to, it's kumospace.com if

9:19

they wanted

9:20

to check it out while you're talking now. For sure.

9:22

It's at k-u-m-o-s-p-a-c-e.com.

9:26

KumoSpace. Google, that was

9:28

actually our first customer. Columbia

9:30

Business School, Shopify,

9:32

all the big fangs. We have people at Facebook,

9:35

Amazon, using it, but we also have a lot

9:37

of fast growing software companies

9:40

using it. A bunch of folks from my portfolio

9:43

and Aura Health and Geology

9:45

are using KumoSpace

9:47

and Slay Teams is using KumoSpace.

9:50

Fast growing startups to big fangs. We

9:52

have NASA using it for their recruiting

9:54

in there. So anywhere from small

9:57

startups to gigantic governmental organizations.

9:59

the government of Canada, we're lucky enough

10:02

to count as a client, are all using it.

10:04

And it's because we all have to share this same

10:06

problem of feeling

10:09

together and connected while working

10:11

apart.

10:12

And looking even at the pricing, it's not

10:14

bad at all. And especially, it says

10:16

if you have 10 members that it's basically up

10:19

to 10 members is free. So if someone had an

10:21

eight or nine person company, they could just even try it

10:23

out for free and see how their company likes

10:25

it before, I guess they go up to the next level

10:28

or whatever. Yeah, 100%. It's free for

10:30

less than 10 folks. And for teams larger

10:33

than that, it's $10 per person per

10:35

month, if you're paying for monthly or you can discount

10:37

if you buy an annual account. And yeah,

10:40

we think that's a pretty good deal relative

10:42

to paying $1,000 per person

10:44

for office space. And for

10:47

getting all those benefits, right of really

10:49

having a strong culture, being

10:51

able to have a culture where people can share and learn

10:53

from each other, the ability to collaborate, tap

10:56

people on the shoulder, get quick answers

10:58

to your questions, iterate quickly. And also,

11:00

you know, just accountability, right? It's just a place

11:02

to show up to work every day, get

11:05

your best work done, show up for your team.

11:07

And whether you're on the team or you're leading

11:09

the team, it's like it really were humans

11:11

were pack animals,

11:12

we'd like to be

11:14

part of a herd. And so Kuma

11:16

Space lets you do that. I'm here with

11:18

Megan Bennett. How's it going, Megan? It

11:21

is going great. How's my favorite

11:23

podcast host and the most handsome young man?

11:26

I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for stating

11:28

the obvious Megan, but we're here to talk about you

11:30

and your company Light Years Ahead.

11:32

I interviewed Megan on Episode 177

11:35

of this very podcast. And she

11:37

helped all of our Patreon members on group

11:39

call three. So you can hear more about Megan

11:41

and how she helped our Patreon members there as

11:44

well. So would you mind telling us what you

11:46

do and how you could help our listeners, Megan?

11:48

Yes, so my agency

11:50

is Light Years Ahead and we're boutique,

11:53

but we're a national PR firm. We're

11:55

women owned and we focus on emerging

11:57

brands, experts and services in the consumer.

12:00

lifestyle space. We're based throughout the

12:02

U.S. We're in New York, Kansas City,

12:04

LA, and Dallas, and we really specialize

12:06

in maximizing media exposure

12:09

for brands and experts, which can then create

12:11

more sales and brand awareness and

12:13

influence buying decisions. Our clients

12:15

range everything from small startups looking to

12:17

make a name from themselves to large brands

12:19

that are trying to become relevant again. My agency,

12:22

LightYears Ahead, we target the very top editors,

12:24

writers, and producers across all different

12:27

media outlets, and we've been doing this for over 20 years,

12:29

which has earned us a very strong reputation

12:32

with the top media, with outlets like

12:34

Buzzfeed, Today Show, Good Morning America,

12:37

Refinery29, PopSugar, Forbes,

12:39

and many more. We can help you grow your

12:42

brand into a household name. Well,

12:44

that sounds awesome. So if someone might

12:46

be interested in your service, what's the best

12:48

way for them to reach you? Oh, the best way to

12:51

reach out is to email me at megan, M-E-G-A-N,

12:54

at lightyearsahead.com. That's Megan

12:56

at lightyearsahead.com, or you can

12:58

check out our services and capabilities at

13:00

lightyearsahead.com, our website.

13:02

And

13:02

I know you've helped a few of our past guests

13:04

as well with their PR and they do sing your

13:06

praises, so hopefully it can help some of our

13:09

listeners as well.

13:10

Absolutely. And we love working with

13:12

your listeners and entrepreneurs who are really

13:14

passionate about what they're doing. And this is

13:17

what we want to offer your listeners. The first

13:19

five listeners that schedule a call

13:21

with us to develop a PR campaign

13:23

will receive $500

13:24

off their first month of services

13:27

with us. It's a great deal. Awesome. And

13:29

one more time, what's the best place for them to reach you

13:31

to pick you up on that offer?

13:33

You can reach me at megan at lightyearsahead.com

13:36

or check out our website at lightyearsahead.com,

13:39

or you can go to our Instagram page at L-Y-A-P-R.

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Yeah, I mean, it makes total sense because entrepreneurs

15:38

are small teams. A lot of them are working

15:40

from home still. And you really wonder if like, okay,

15:42

if I'm working right now, does anyone even know?

15:44

Does anyone care? Am I making a difference? And

15:47

the capability of, okay, I can see that

15:49

someone else is working in my company

15:51

and pushes me to work versus you just feeling

15:53

alone and isolated, like you're saying, especially against

15:56

the bigger companies might help even more, but even

15:58

smaller ones where you're...

15:59

losing out on that ability to connect with people

16:02

and just being able to chat with them real quick. So

16:04

I definitely would say it's worth checking out, especially

16:06

if it's free up to 10 members to anyone who's

16:09

listening now. Well, thank you, sir. And if you

16:11

want to get Kuma Space set up for your team,

16:13

happy to deck it out for

16:15

millionaire interviews and make it personalized.

16:18

That's one of the things we really push is

16:20

this, you know, your office, your virtual office

16:22

is completely customizable. You can trick it

16:24

out as much as you want. Everyone can have their own little

16:27

office with their own little vibe in my office.

16:29

I've got sand and waves and a beach

16:31

umbrella and a beach chair and the sounds

16:33

of the ocean. And that's reflective of my

16:36

personality. I'm actually calling in here from

16:38

Costa Rica. I let you know, big surfer.

16:40

But other people have totally different rooms. One

16:42

of our engineers has his room set up like a DJ

16:45

booth with a velvet rope and he's kind

16:47

of more larger than life. His

16:49

name is Bruno. I love him. Bruno Mars? Yeah,

16:52

yeah, exactly. I mean, this guy

16:54

is a good looking guy. I think he could have an entertainment

16:57

career after his engineering. The idea

16:59

is there's two features of the world. One is where

17:02

remote work is soulless, soul

17:04

crushing, isolated

17:05

and inhuman. And

17:08

we just become little automatons

17:10

and cogs in the wheel. And then there's

17:12

this other narrative people are pushing

17:15

where we have to come back in the office, but

17:17

then you have to commute for two hours

17:19

a day. You can only work in jobs

17:22

in your city. You don't get to tuck

17:24

your kids in at night and you don't

17:26

get an opportunity to travel the world. Right.

17:29

And so we're saying that there's a third way,

17:32

right? There's a third way. There's a place where we can

17:34

feel part of a team. We can do good work. We

17:36

can be really connected and have real

17:38

strong bonds and relationships with

17:41

our team and get great work

17:43

done at high level of performance. And

17:46

we can live the life that we want. We can

17:48

live in Costa Rica if we want. We can

17:51

spend more time with our kids and tuck

17:53

them in and read them bedtime

17:55

stories or we can slip out to

17:57

take our older grandmother to.

17:59

doctor's appointment and still be productive.

18:03

That's our narrative that we're pushing. We think

18:05

there's a third way where you can live your best

18:07

life and kick butt at work. So

18:09

that's what we're trying to pitch. Can you tell us a little bit

18:11

about how you spend your time between KumoSpace

18:14

and then your venture capital firm, Charge

18:16

Ventures, that you're talking about that I guess this

18:18

spun out of? Yeah. So it's funny.

18:21

Everyone says, oh, how do you split your time

18:23

with percentage? The truth is I just have two

18:25

jobs. So luckily, I'm not

18:27

the first person to have to work two jobs. There's

18:29

a lot of

18:29

people out there who are less

18:32

fortunate than me that have to. I do it

18:34

because I love it. With Charge, I have

18:37

such an amazing opportunity.

18:40

I get to sit on a pile of money. I

18:42

get to talk to really interesting,

18:44

hardworking, smart, talented

18:47

people all day, ask them

18:49

about their insights about the world and their

18:51

vision for the future. I get to pick a few

18:53

that I really like. And then we get to partner.

18:55

I get to give them money and then we get to

18:57

try to get rich together. What an amazing

19:00

job that is and what a privilege it is to

19:02

be a venture capitalist and to

19:04

get the chance to work with such hardworking

19:08

and industrious and special

19:10

people. We've got 60 plus portfolio companies

19:13

now or in our third fund. And

19:15

just feel really fortunate that we get

19:17

to really invest in people at the earliest

19:19

stages. We invest in people when they're just getting off the

19:21

ground, raising their first couple of million dollars and help

19:23

to put people in business. It's just

19:26

really a privilege. And then Kumo

19:28

Space was honestly,

19:29

I was very happy doing Charge,

19:32

focusing on investing. I had built

19:35

several companies earlier in my 20s

19:37

and early 30s. I wasn't

19:40

looking to start another company, but when I

19:42

came up with the idea for Kumo

19:45

Space, I always tell people, I'm

19:47

like, don't be an entrepreneur unless there's literally

19:49

nothing else you can do.

19:51

Don't be an entrepreneur unless you have no

19:54

other choice. It's always easier to make money

19:56

working for someone else and it'll

19:58

never make sense to be an entrepreneur.

19:59

The only reason to do it is if you literally can't do anything else. When

20:02

I see what looks like great investments, things

20:04

with lots of revenue growing really quickly, high

20:06

margins, great moat, smart

20:09

management team with deep insight into

20:11

a space, I would usually just give them money

20:13

because that is far easier to write

20:16

someone a check and own 10%

20:18

of their business than it is to grind

20:21

in day in, day out. When I

20:23

saw the Kuma space, when we thought about

20:25

Kuma space, it spoke to me so personally.

20:28

My whole career, if you look at all the companies I've

20:29

started, it's basically building new

20:32

ways of interacting, new forms

20:35

and modalities of interacting, of

20:37

communication online that are

20:39

more authentic and natural.

20:43

Look at my first company, Sonar, I was leveraging

20:45

information on the internet, get offline and connect

20:47

in person. If you look at Switch, it

20:49

was about basically making it easier

20:52

to get in touch with the hiring manager of a

20:54

company and have a more authentic

20:56

interaction with your future employer and

20:58

you look at Kuma space, it's

20:59

just like, hey, we're spending all

21:02

day working from home, working from anywhere

21:04

remotely and it's pretty dehumanizing.

21:07

How can we bring the humanity back

21:09

to remote work? The more I thought about it

21:11

and the more I spent time with Yang on it, I just couldn't

21:13

help be a part of it. So, yeah,

21:15

I guess I'm following my own advice there. Thank

21:18

you for the insight. So if you don't mind, why

21:20

don't we go ahead and jump back to where you

21:22

were born and raised and fast forward

21:24

to where you went to college and all that other good stuff

21:26

in your entrepreneurial story?

21:28

Yeah, for sure. I'm from Ocean

21:30

City, Maryland. It's a small mid-Atlantic

21:33

beach resort, cotton candy, funnel

21:35

cakes, roller coaster rides, haunted houses.

21:38

I grew up surfing, went to a really small

21:40

school and I was lucky

21:43

enough, I kind of won the educational lottery.

21:45

I got into Dartmouth up in New

21:47

Hampshire. That changed my life, obviously. I

21:49

couldn't really fathom all the worlds

21:51

a lot of these kids were from, you know, big city

21:54

parents doing investment banking and working

21:56

for the government. And then when I

21:58

graduated, I...

21:59

I always knew I was going to be an entrepreneur. Even

22:02

actually when I was a young kid, I was always

22:04

entrepreneurial. I started little

22:06

small businesses. I used to buy conch

22:08

shells from the fishermen, clean them up, and then sell

22:10

them for 1,000% markup. I always

22:13

knew I was going to start a company. I did

22:15

my two years of service at an investment

22:17

bank. Met some great people, but realized

22:20

that financial engineering was not

22:22

going to be my future. I

22:24

really wanted to build things. Then ever

22:26

since then, I've been building and investing

22:29

in technology. I've got Circle

22:31

Companies. I worked at several venture funds.

22:33

Right before starting Charge, I was at

22:36

Primary Venture Partners with Ben Sun

22:38

and Brad Zverlage, great guys.

22:40

And I really got to see the rise

22:43

of the New York tech ecosystem

22:46

from primordial ooze

22:48

to what it is today, Circle Ventures, venture capital

22:51

market in the world outside of China. That's

22:53

what I love. I just love the intersection

22:55

of new tech and people being

22:58

more human.

22:59

And so when did you actually graduate college?

23:01

Yeah, I graduated in 2004, back in 2004, when

23:05

you were smart and hardworking

23:07

and you wanted financial independence. You

23:10

would probably go and try to get

23:12

a job at a bank or a consulting firm

23:14

or maybe a law firm or something like that. And

23:17

I did that. I didn't really know what

23:19

that big idea was at the time. And what's

23:21

been interesting is that a couple of years later,

23:24

we had the financial crisis. And that

23:26

option, that track, was no longer available.

23:29

None of the consulting firms were hiring. None

23:31

of the banks were hiring. And so when

23:34

there is no track, the track becomes entrepreneurship.

23:36

And so we saw this talent come from these

23:39

good schools that normally would have been sucked up

23:41

and put in a cubicle somewhere. They had

23:43

to come up with their own ideas and start

23:45

to fend for themselves. And that really was

23:48

the big inflection point for tech and

23:51

in places like New York, where we always had

23:53

the capital. We always had the talent. But what we

23:55

didn't really have was the culture of entrepreneurship. And

23:57

it's just sort of building and growing

23:59

around.

23:59

2008, 2009, a bunch of my friends

24:02

at the time were very small venture funds, Eniac

24:04

Ventures, Fixing, and Nahal,

24:06

and Hadley, and Tim, and Jordan Cooper,

24:09

and Lair Ventures, and the folks

24:11

at Primary, like I mentioned, they all just

24:13

started new funds, and it's pretty crazy.

24:16

It was great timing. It sounded crazy to write $100,000 checks

24:19

into illiquid, and profitable companies,

24:22

but the people that were brave enough to do it then

24:24

are now all sitting on

24:26

several hundred million billion dollar funds,

24:28

sitting pretty pretty. I think

24:29

a great example of Fortune Favors the

24:32

Bold.

24:33

When those people started doing that, you said around 2010,

24:36

but you coming out of college, you said you worked for an investment

24:38

company, and you did that for, or I don't

24:41

know if you kind of jumped around, but how long did you do all that

24:43

stuff before, I guess maybe starting your own

24:45

company or joining one of these venture funds

24:47

with your friends? Yeah. So I did

24:49

banking for the first two years. I

24:52

did equity research. I was a research analyst.

24:54

I covered healthcare services. Real

24:56

quick, do you mind telling me what that is, just so everyone's

24:59

on the same page, kind of understanding that? Oh, for

25:01

sure. So equity research is

25:03

a function at an investment bank,

25:06

and

25:06

it means researching equities

25:09

or stocks. And so what you

25:11

do is you have what's called a coverage universe. It's

25:13

basically anywhere from like 15

25:15

to 30 stocks that you become

25:18

the absolute world expert on. And so

25:20

I covered healthcare services, which

25:22

means hospitals, surgery

25:25

centers, dialysis, clinics,

25:27

hospice, things like that. And

25:30

I would cover all the publicly treated companies

25:33

in those spaces. And we would basically

25:35

research those stocks, talk to management,

25:37

do channel checks, diligence, and then

25:40

write research reports basically

25:42

saying, do we think this is a stock, is it a good

25:44

buy or not? And the customers for

25:46

that research are institutional

25:49

investors, institutional money managers,

25:51

people that run hedge funds that run mutual

25:53

and make investments for mutual funds. So kind

25:55

of like the way your financial advisor, your

25:57

stock broker might give the retail investment.

25:59

or an individual some stock tips

26:02

and say, hey, think about buying the stock, Nvidia,

26:05

GPUs, and graphics processes

26:07

are going to be in demand for the next 10 years. We

26:09

provided similar recommendations,

26:11

but we did that for institutional money

26:14

managers. So people that were going to buy 10, $50, $100 million

26:16

worth of a stock, they

26:19

would call us and ask us for our advice

26:21

on which stocks to buy. Okay. And you said

26:23

you did that for two years? Yeah, I did that for a

26:26

couple of years right out of college. And

26:28

it was a really great learning experience.

26:29

I think a lot of people in tech, they

26:32

sometimes look down on finance and talk

26:35

smack about finance. And one of the things I like

26:37

about finance is that everyone is very clear why

26:39

they're there and that's money. It's pretty

26:41

clear, cut and dry, what's good and bad is

26:43

and what works and what's not. And it's no nonsense

26:45

in that sense. And it is excellent training,

26:48

building work ethic, like working 80 to 100

26:50

hours a week for a couple of years. Everything

26:53

after that seems pretty breezy. Yeah,

26:55

I did that for a couple of years. And then I actually

26:58

took probably a slightly different turn

26:59

than most people. What was that? Well,

27:02

I was going to take over my boss's job.

27:05

He was leaving and I could take his

27:07

job and run the franchises,

27:09

it's called and be the lead analyst on

27:11

those stocks. But I instead, I actually

27:14

lived on a sailboat for a year. So

27:16

me and a buddy of mine from college, his

27:19

family had a 40-year-old, 30-foot

27:21

sailboat. And we took that

27:24

and we sailed it 6,000 miles from

27:26

Maine down to an island called Dominica

27:29

in the Caribbean,

27:29

I'm about halfway to South America and

27:32

then back. So that's what I did the

27:34

year after banking. And did you do that because

27:36

it was like the financial crisis? No,

27:39

I actually left before that was 2006, 2007 for me. So I

27:41

probably would have maximized earnings by

27:46

sticking around for one more year. I think 2007

27:48

probably would have been a pretty banner year for

27:51

bonuses. But 2008 would have been terrible.

27:53

So I didn't quite top tick the market,

27:56

but I did get out beforehand. And I think a lot of people

27:58

get that.

27:59

stuck with the golden

28:02

handcuffs. They get on a treadmill,

28:04

they start making more money, they start spending more money,

28:06

and then all of a sudden they can't leave. My

28:08

plan had always been to graduate college,

28:11

make a bunch of money, make sure I paid

28:14

off any debts I had, and then really

28:16

have just complete financial independence

28:19

so that I could do whatever I wanted. What I wanted

28:21

to do was travel. So the sailboat,

28:23

which was essentially free shelter

28:26

and transportation, enabled me to see 20

28:29

countries

28:29

down in the Caribbean. I don't think

28:32

I spent more than $10,000 that year.

28:34

So what is a full year of sailing?

28:36

About nine months. How did y'all come up with

28:38

this? Did your buddy approach you with it? And you're like, yeah,

28:40

let's do this. I'm tired of being an analyst

28:43

working 80, 90 hours a week. Well,

28:45

actually, my buddy was an English major from

28:47

college. And he was down with

28:49

a bunch of my friends cleaning up

28:52

after Hurricane Katrina. They were down in

28:54

Biloxi, Mississippi, right by

28:56

New Orleans, whichever one knows got destroyed. And

28:58

they were just helping rebuild the

29:01

city of Biloxi. They were tearing down

29:03

houses that had been destroyed

29:05

by water

29:06

damage and mold and starting to rebuild

29:08

them and really get that area back

29:11

on its feet. My friends have always been

29:13

a little bit wanderers, I guess,

29:15

not really necessarily the type A,

29:18

straight line type people. And so he

29:20

had been down in Biloxi fixing

29:22

houses, and he heard that I had come

29:24

up as a free agent. I

29:26

basically had reached out to all my friends. They said, okay, great.

29:29

We made money. Let's travel. And

29:31

my friends had said, well, Brett, it's 2006. We're

29:33

all making $200,000, $250,000 a year at 23. Cordially, go to hell. So I found my

29:36

one

29:40

buddy who was an English major,

29:42

wasn't working at a bank, and he was looking for something

29:44

to do as well. And so we just luckily,

29:46

they had an old sailboat. And that's

29:48

how that plan came together. Were

29:50

you scared at all? Had you had any experience

29:52

sailing before? So funny you should say

29:54

that I actually was quite afraid

29:57

of boats because I grew up surfing,

29:59

really been away from shore. And

30:02

so the concept of not seeing shore was quite scary.

30:04

And so I actually think that was

30:06

part of the reason I did it. It was interesting.

30:08

A funny story is that we started the sail,

30:11

we sailed from Maine, got to New England, Connecticut,

30:14

which is just north of Long Island.

30:16

And we were supposed to take a 36 hour sail from

30:18

New England, Connecticut down to Cape May, New

30:20

Jersey. So around Long Island, past New York

30:23

and down to the southern tip of New Jersey. Four

30:26

days later, so close to a

30:28

hundred hours, we

30:29

arrived in Norfolk, Virginia, and

30:32

we got caught in a gigantic

30:35

winter storm and blown 300

30:37

miles out to sea by 15 foot waves and 70

30:42

knot winds. And I

30:44

honestly was so green

30:47

and that I didn't even know how dangerous

30:49

that position was.

30:51

And how'd you get out of that position?

30:53

Well, we were fortunate at the time, it

30:55

was me, my buddy and his father. And so his

30:57

dad had been a helicopter pilot in

31:00

Vietnam and then had flown choppers

31:02

for the Coast Guard and his name's

31:04

Papa Shawn. He's just an amazing guy. He's got

31:07

a big handlebar mustache, a manor.

31:09

And I learned a very important lesson from

31:11

him, which was we were getting destroyed.

31:14

We were getting destroyed. I mean, we had 15 foot

31:17

waves just breaking over the bow of the boat.

31:19

And we were jacked in, we were hooked into

31:21

a line that held us to the

31:23

boat. So we got washed off. And

31:26

I was so exhausted, soaking wet.

31:28

It was October outside,

31:30

freezing cold, wearing layers

31:33

and layers of clothes, just stopping wet and

31:35

couldn't even think straight. And this guy

31:38

was just whistling Dixie,

31:40

smiling. Good morning, so

31:43

figuring out how to somehow cook

31:45

us food. He made coffee in the middle

31:47

of the storm, I don't know how he did it. And just

31:50

kept such a smile on his face, even in

31:52

the face of just

31:53

like absolute danger in mayhem. And

31:55

I observed him. And one thing I noticed about him

31:57

was he was constantly fixing it.

31:59

things. He constantly was

32:02

repairing, mending the sails, fixing

32:04

the Beno-Gol light, repairing the rudder, patching

32:07

up a crack in the side of the ship.

32:09

And I learned an important lesson from that guy,

32:11

which was like, one, keep your wits

32:13

about you, keep light in the face of serious

32:16

circumstances. And then two,

32:19

that guy literally would have, God

32:21

would have to come down and pluck him

32:23

off the face of the earth himself before that guy

32:25

was going to go. And so no matter what,

32:28

he was going to be doing whatever it took

32:29

to maximize the chances of success

32:32

and survival. And he never took

32:35

a break from doing that. And so that

32:37

was a very important lesson for me about how to

32:39

respond to adversity.

32:40

Well, after the storm, did it settle enough

32:42

that y'all were able to kind of sail to shore or

32:44

did y'all actually need to call for help? Well,

32:47

mercifully, we got blown in

32:49

the appropriate direction. So we actually,

32:51

you know, made a bunch of, covered a bunch of ground and made

32:53

it all the way to Virginia instead of Jersey.

32:56

So it just helped you get there faster. You got lucked

32:58

out with that? That is correct. Okay.

33:01

And then how about the rest of the trip? Did it just

33:03

go okay? Because I'm just curious, like how close do you

33:05

even sail to shore? And I mean,

33:07

just even looking at a map or anyone can imagine just going

33:10

from New York all the way down to almost South

33:12

America?

33:13

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a crazy story.

33:15

We saw pirates and

33:18

drug runners and water spouts,

33:20

which is a tornado in the ocean

33:23

and, you know, attacked by swarms

33:25

of mosquitoes and held a gunpoint

33:27

twice only once by the police. I

33:29

mean, it was crazy early twenties,

33:32

sort of adventures that you'd be terrified

33:34

if you heard about your own children. Yeah.

33:37

Well, you have to tell us about the gunpoint

33:39

stories now before we move on.

33:41

Well, we got boarded once by, we didn't know

33:43

it was a police time,

33:46

but they came on and I woke up

33:48

and I had a, looks like a machine gun,

33:50

like maybe four inches from my face and

33:53

this guy on the ship, like us gets where we work

33:55

because we're a small vessel and

33:57

we did a night sail from Antigua.

33:59

to Martinique

34:02

and we came in and we actually,

34:04

you know, we thought there was a through Martinique, it

34:06

looks like an elephant ear and you know, there was

34:09

a kind of a river we thought that could just cut

34:11

straight through it. So we didn't have to go around the island. It turns out

34:13

it's a very narrow passage and we

34:15

came in at night because we took a beautiful night

34:17

sail and then, you know, the police

34:20

were just wondering what are you guys

34:22

doing? You know, everyone thought we were running

34:24

drugs. I mean, that was obviously not the case, we

34:26

were just cruising around. But when

34:28

they see a small

34:29

unmarked vessel going there, a water

34:32

space, like that's the natural assumption. So we were

34:34

good. We cleaned it up. They were okay with us

34:36

and let us go through, but it was quite an interesting

34:39

way to start the day.

34:40

So that was the one time with the police, you said you

34:42

were held again point twice, right?

34:44

Yeah. Well, you know, some stories are better

34:47

left to imagine. Okay.

34:49

I guess y'all had an internal fight? No,

34:51

no, no, no, no, no, not at all. Not

34:54

at all. Just there's some rough parts. I mean, truthfully,

34:56

what that was, was we were coming

34:58

up the coast of Puerto Rico. And on

35:01

the radar, we saw another ship

35:03

coming in really hot into us. And it was late.

35:05

It was 2am. And we

35:08

were like, what is going on here? And

35:10

we basically got out the gun and got on

35:13

the radio and on the public

35:14

channel, and basically said, boat at

35:16

XYZ coordinates, identify yourself.

35:19

And luckily enough, the boat actually just peeled

35:22

out. And so we don't really know

35:24

what that was about. But we felt like

35:26

it was probably someone that was a drug

35:29

runner, thought we were there to pick up

35:31

and was coming to try to deliver

35:33

stuff to us. And when we got on the police

35:36

channel and told them to identify themselves,

35:38

they scooted out of there real quick.

35:40

Did you tell your parents all these stories? Yeah,

35:43

I'm pretty unfortunate. I've got a pretty,

35:45

I'd say, clear line of communication

35:47

with my family. I think they prefer

35:50

to hear about it after the fact, not before.

35:52

But yeah, my family's always treating

35:54

me like adults. So I've never had a problem. Tell

35:56

them what we're up to.

35:57

That makes sense. But I mean, that's pretty wild when you're in the you're

36:00

what, like 24, 25? You're

36:02

doing like this one trip is enough scary

36:04

moments for someone in their whole lifetime, it sounds like.

36:07

Honestly, as I said, the risk portion

36:09

of a young man's brain I think they've shown

36:12

is not fully formed until their

36:14

mid to late 20s. And so I wasn't

36:16

there yet. Okay. Well, that makes

36:18

sense. I never even knew that. So you do that for

36:21

nine months, like you said, and then you decide

36:23

you want to go back to New York and start working

36:25

again?

36:26

I can't say that actually, we were on

36:28

Virgin Gorda. And I was

36:31

sitting there, I was actually talking with guy ran

36:33

a hedge fund that I happened to be chatting with. And

36:35

I got an email from my mom

36:37

saying that I had gotten a thick package

36:40

from the Fulbright Association, which

36:42

is a government funded research program

36:45

that will send you to other

36:47

countries to do government funded research,

36:50

funded by both US government and the foreign government.

36:52

And I got accepted into the Fulbright program.

36:55

I was sitting in Virgin Gorda, I think that was the

36:57

fall of 2006. So I realized that when

37:01

I got back, I was actually, I got

37:03

another year. This is all post investment

37:06

banking. And so I got a research to

37:08

study the effect of globalization on

37:10

the Italian textile and fashion industries.

37:13

And so I was actually headed to Milan the following

37:15

year to do this research at the

37:17

University of Bocconi, which is the

37:20

number one business school in Europe

37:22

and in Milan. Yeah, so that was great.

37:24

So I didn't have a kind of had that to

37:26

look forward to on the sailing trip. And then I had

37:29

six months to kill when we got

37:31

back from the sailing trip. And I spent

37:33

that working at a little thing called VBS.tv,

37:35

which is actually Vice magazine's internet

37:38

presence. I'm not sure if you've heard

37:40

of Vice, the third big media company now,

37:43

you know, multi billion dollar media company, but at the time,

37:45

they had just been this Canadian counterculture

37:49

little magazine started by essentially

37:51

some shrug addicts that were conning

37:54

the Canadian government out of some money.

37:56

And they created this magazine as

37:58

a platform to do it. And

37:59

And then they had had a bunch

38:02

of success, really great editorial

38:04

actually. And they had just opened an office

38:06

in Williamsburg, New York, a couple blocks from

38:08

my house. And they are starting their

38:11

online media company, which in 2006 was

38:13

kind of a crazy idea. My buddy

38:15

Brian Orsford there, he was kind of running

38:17

production and I had some time

38:20

to kill between starting my full bride and getting

38:22

off the boat. And so I was

38:24

their second marketing guy,

38:26

I guess, as an intern. The

38:28

former banker interning at this media

38:30

organization, it was crazy. We took them

38:32

from 60,000 monthly page views

38:35

to like 2 million. And we were buying

38:37

a bunch of traffic off porn websites and bouncing

38:39

off the site to get the numbers cranking.

38:43

And yeah, it was a wild time. They

38:45

did not trust me as a former investment banker,

38:47

but I did build them their only model to

38:49

predict their ad sales and manage their

38:52

ad inventory. So I felt like that was a useful

38:54

use of time. And I did that while

38:57

getting to start a band with some of my

38:59

friends from

38:59

college, all actually like very

39:02

talented musicians. I was not a

39:04

musician at all, I actually didn't know how to play any instrument. So

39:06

the deal I struck with them is kind of organizing

39:09

the band and getting us together. And in

39:11

return, they would teach me how to play the bass. And

39:13

so we started the band that summer and

39:15

I took off to go to the Fulbright Scholarship, but then

39:18

they actually continued on and played for

39:20

five years. They played a bunch of bower

39:22

ballroom and famous venues in New York and South

39:24

by Southwest. And so, you know,

39:26

that was really fun. So that was my summer

39:28

before the Fulbright.

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40:52

And then the Fulbright, you're over in Italy for

40:54

about three years doing that. It's through

40:56

the it's called the Fulbright scholarship. So

40:59

are you getting paid a decent amount or what are you

41:01

getting paid like? And what's your job like there?

41:03

I mean, it's a government scholarship. So

41:06

I would not say it was exactly getting paid a ton.

41:08

I mean, I think I had a stipend. I think it was like 13,000

41:11

euros or something like that. So

41:13

for a year? Yeah, for a year. Dang,

41:15

that's nothing. I was thinking maybe like 50K

41:18

US, you know, that you at least get paid. But

41:20

obviously, that doesn't sound like that. No,

41:23

not so much. Yeah, I think I was making

41:25

like a less than 20th of what I was making at the bank.

41:29

And that's the reason I wanted to point that out. It

41:31

seems like you made a lot of money those first couple of years, then you

41:33

went sailing and then you're

41:33

doing this. I didn't think you'd make much, but that's

41:36

even less than I would have thought.

41:38

I think a lot of people, they get

41:40

attached to number and their number

41:42

and they're kind of checking their bank account

41:45

all the time. That's never really been my style.

41:47

I'm more like, I'll do interesting things

41:49

and do good work and the money will come. And

41:51

part of being an entrepreneur is being able to take

41:54

some risk and keeping a low burn gives

41:56

you a lot of flexibility.

41:58

Right. And yeah, I appreciate you.

41:59

like saying that and talking about that. The only reason I bring

42:02

it up is like, you're almost taught in college or

42:04

maybe most people think you come out and it's just an upward

42:06

path, right, of income. We are even

42:08

hearing through your story how you made a lot of money the first

42:10

couple of years and then afterwards, didn't it, and you might

42:13

be happier doing these other things. So I just like

42:15

bring it into account of, some people wouldn't be able

42:17

to cut back their spending. It sounds like

42:19

maybe your friends who you asked them to go on that

42:21

sailing trip and they're like, no, I'm making too much money, I

42:23

don't want to, versus you obviously have a different

42:26

outlook on it. And I think most entrepreneurs

42:28

need to understand and probably do that,

42:29

yeah, it's not a linear path up with income,

42:32

but it's all around. I've been

42:34

all over the place. I've been worth millions of

42:36

dollars multiple times and then worth

42:38

zero multiple times. So it's definitely

42:40

for me been a spiky journey. I think

42:43

entrepreneurship kind of looks like that. I

42:45

think if you work your way up the corporate ladder,

42:47

obviously it's like much more stable and secure,

42:50

but even then, you never know, right? You

42:52

can have life-changing thing, you can get

42:54

hurt, you can lose a bunch of money in the

42:56

stock market. I feel like you

42:58

never actually

42:59

have control of your situation. So

43:02

you control what you can and you

43:04

roll with the punches and entrepreneurship, everything's

43:06

just 10X amplified. So the highs

43:09

are higher and the lows are lower, but it's

43:11

been okay with me because I, well,

43:13

I'll save that lesson for later. You learn

43:16

not to tie your self-worth

43:18

to your net worth. Yeah,

43:21

well said, well said. Don't tie your self-worth

43:23

to your net worth. And then so yeah, you're in

43:25

Milan, like you said, for a couple of years, and

43:28

then you come on back. Is there any

43:29

experiences that stand out before we

43:32

move forward from the Fulbright Scholar?

43:34

Oh, it was great. I spent a year in Milan

43:36

and did my research with my

43:38

old friend, and actually it's his birthday today,

43:41

Thanos Apopadimitriou, who

43:43

was my Fulbright advisor. We got to

43:45

work and do some really great research on entrepreneurship.

43:48

I use that actually as a pivot. So I got

43:50

the Fulbright to study the effects

43:52

of globalization on Italian textile and fashion

43:54

industries. I did the research and I

43:56

wrote the report and I realized I do not want to be part

43:59

of this industry.

43:59

It's dying. And I said, what

44:02

do I want to be a part of? I want to be a part of tech. And

44:04

so we kind of pivoted the research

44:07

into a study of early stage entrepreneurship

44:10

and resource allocation. And I use

44:12

that opportunity in Italy to basically do

44:14

Skype calls with a hundred American

44:16

VCs and CEOs of publicly

44:18

traded companies. And I use

44:20

that as my way of networking my way into tech.

44:23

And then as you network into tech, what

44:25

happens? Well, that was the next

44:27

step in my career, basically. I came

44:29

back and honestly, I had

44:32

probably one of my, probably my toughest year professionally

44:35

of my life. It was my last

44:37

year, really. I came back from the Fulbright. I was still

44:39

getting the research published in Harvard Business Review

44:41

and kind of going back and forth through Italy.

44:44

And I was trying to find a job and I wasn't sure

44:46

what I want to do. I was like, do I want to start a company?

44:48

Do I want to be a venture capitalist? Do

44:50

I want to go back to graduate

44:53

school, get an MBA, get a

44:55

PhD? And I kind of

44:57

waffled back and forth there. And

44:59

I had like 10 interviews

45:02

at some venture capital firm in New York and

45:04

could not get them to give me the answer,

45:06

you know, one way or another. And I was like, what is going on? And

45:09

I was still so young and naive that I did not realize

45:11

the financial crisis was going on. And

45:14

of course they weren't going to add new hires

45:16

and they were going to try to cut costs. And so ultimately

45:19

that's actually what pushed me into entrepreneurship is because I was

45:21

like, well, no one's hiring. So

45:23

I'm going to start a company. And so I grabbed

45:25

one of my smartest buddies from college. My

45:28

buddy will hide a check. And we moved

45:29

to my mom's house and set up a work table

45:32

in her dining room. You know, God bless

45:35

her. And just started editing our

45:37

ideas. And we moved to Austin eventually

45:40

that, you know, that sort of really never launched, but it definitely

45:42

gave me a taste. And then I came

45:44

back to New York and joined

45:47

a small, you know, just started VC

45:49

fund it's called app fund. They were going to focus

45:51

on software built for the tablet. And

45:54

that's how I sort of got in. I got

45:56

in my buddy, Jordan Cooper, helped

45:59

connect me with that job.

45:59

and that turned from it basically

46:02

a VC to an incubator. And

46:04

from that incubator, I said, okay, fine. If

46:06

we're going to be an incubator, I'm going to start a company. And so

46:09

I started my first company that was called Sonar. And

46:11

what year was that?

46:12

That was 2000. So 2010 is

46:15

when I moved back to New York and got

46:17

started there.

46:18

And when you're saying New York, are you actually like New

46:20

York City? Yeah, I was in New York. I think I was

46:22

in West Village or something at that time. Yeah, because

46:25

you're saying you kind of went to Austin and you were in New

46:27

York City. I mean, I'm just curious because obviously rent's

46:29

expensive in New York, but are

46:31

you like going to the same place when you're coming back to

46:33

New York or like living with the same friends? I'm

46:35

just a little curious on your personal aspect

46:37

of living. Oh, well, yeah, I mean, I had

46:40

lived in New York and we lived in Spanish Harlem.

46:42

And then we lived downtown, you know, first

46:44

apartment was a three bedroom

46:46

in Spanish Harlem. I think we paid $400

46:48

a person a month,

46:51

which was pretty cheap by today's

46:53

rent, as you can imagine. And then we moved

46:55

down to West Village. And when I came back from

46:57

this, I moved in with my buddy,

47:00

Tim, who's a neuroscientist, PhD

47:02

student at the time at Columbia. And yeah,

47:05

we lived in a tiny little apartment in the West Village.

47:07

And that's when, like you said, you

47:09

started your first startup?

47:11

Yeah, that was my first real startup, which is called Sonar,

47:13

which is called a proximity-based social

47:15

networking app, a way of connecting with

47:18

people to you nearby. And it

47:20

was a crazy ride. We launched out

47:22

of the incubator, we launched a TechCrunch disrupt,

47:25

we were the runners up there,

47:27

you know, I like launched it on stage in front

47:30

of 10,000 people. And we had kind

47:32

of a crazy rise. We had 300 press

47:34

mentions in like six months, and we

47:36

were down in South by Southwest, then we're

47:39

on Fox News and all these pieces is kind of a battle

47:41

between us and these other proximity-based

47:43

social networking apps. And interestingly,

47:45

at the time, the iPhone, I don't

47:47

think it did very efficient caching of your

47:50

geolocation. So anytime an app

47:52

would ask for your location, it would ping

47:54

the cell tower. And so everyone was at South

47:56

by Southwest, which is like a big tech conference running

47:59

around. five of these like proximity based

48:02

networking apps like Sonar on their phones, each

48:04

of them asking for the location every five minutes

48:07

and it just destroyed everyone's battery. So

48:09

the space went from the hottest space in

48:11

tech, social, local, mobile, to freezing

48:14

like the ninth circle of hell. It

48:16

didn't work out. It's a longer

48:18

story. We almost sold a couple times.

48:20

It didn't pan out. We almost recapped

48:23

the company. It didn't pan out. Three years later,

48:25

had a bunch of money. I

48:27

was $60,000 into personal credit card debt for the company.

48:29

How much? I think I

48:32

had $60,000 of credit card debt at the

48:34

time. And I had just been burning money for

48:36

a few years. I didn't have that much gas in the tank

48:38

at the time. Wow. And so this

48:40

is kind of like a three year span it looks

48:42

like when I'm looking on LinkedIn.

48:44

Yep. And it was crazy. We had

48:46

millions of users all over the world

48:48

and ultimately, it did not pan

48:51

out. My investors, I had

48:53

some investors that were amazing and some investors

48:55

that didn't really do anything. And then some investors

48:58

that kind of like actively, I disagreed

49:00

with them, made a lot of friction. I actually

49:02

never owned more than 20% of that company.

49:05

So I didn't really have control.

49:08

And at the time, when I was in

49:10

my early 20s, I thought, I don't really care

49:12

that much about money. But I just didn't realize

49:14

like, oh, I actually do care somewhat about

49:16

control. And so it was really hard

49:18

because there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen and it

49:21

didn't ultimately work. And

49:23

because I had a cap table that was very

49:26

kind of lopsided, some people put in a little

49:28

money and earned a lot and some people put in a lot

49:30

of money and earned a little and then there was me

49:32

who just earned a little, it was hard to

49:34

really steer the thing. Ultimately, that's

49:36

what killed it is just not being able to get

49:38

everyone on the cap table aligned. That

49:41

said, you know, a lot of people, they do come to me and they

49:43

say, oh, you know,

49:44

proximity based social networking, what's

49:46

going to happen in this space? Someone got to do something and

49:48

I always tell them I said, yeah, someone did do

49:50

something big and proximity based social networking.

49:53

And that company is called Tinder. Because

49:55

it turns out that the proximity is

49:57

actually not a very useful signal.

49:59

for people you want to connect with unless you

50:02

really need to meet them in person. And so dating

50:04

and proximity is a very good signal for it. People

50:07

tend to only date people they're physically close to.

50:09

And so Tinder did a great job. Well,

50:12

thank you for sharing all that. I was going to ask kind of what you

50:14

learned, but I think you really summed it up pretty

50:16

well. I don't know if there's anything else that you learned

50:18

before we move on to kind of where you went from

50:20

there. You can check it out. I wrote a post-mortem.

50:23

It's called Postmortem Adventure Back Startup.

50:25

I published that about a month after it was

50:28

over. I jokingly say that it got more

50:30

traction than Sonar ever did. I mean, that's not true

50:32

because Sonar did have millions of users, but this

50:34

thing got a few million reads and it

50:36

sums up all the things I screwed up. It's

50:39

on Medium? It's on Medium, yeah. Yeah. I

50:42

just learned how to spell post-mortem as well. So I

50:44

guess if you just Google post-mortem, Sonar

50:47

looks like that'll be the first hit for everybody.

50:49

So yeah, a lot of learnings,

50:52

too many learnings here. But I think in

50:54

general, partnerships are hard. If

50:57

you're in a partnership that's not working, I think the

50:59

main lesson

50:59

is you got to either accept it and

51:02

figure out how to make it work. You have to

51:05

rejigger the terms or

51:07

you have to get out of it. But what you can't do

51:09

is be in a partnership and be unhappy

51:12

and complain about it and not fix it because

51:14

you're just dead in the water. Yeah. I

51:17

mean, it'd be just dying of slow death, it seems like. You got

51:19

to make a move one way or another just for everyone's

51:21

benefit, it sounds like. But you'd be surprised.

51:24

I mean, how many people are in unhappy marriages?

51:26

Right. Yeah, totally understood. I mean,

51:28

it makes sense that

51:29

so many people are scared to get out of relationships

51:32

or like business partnerships. But at some

51:34

point, you've got to make a decision and realize

51:37

if you're actually happy. So coming out of Sonar,

51:39

I guess, were you still in personal debt? And

51:42

I don't know if you had any money kind of

51:44

left over from even the first couple of years on that

51:46

high earning job.

51:47

Coming out of Sonar, I basically

51:50

spent most of my money that

51:52

I had saved up from investment banking

51:55

and I made my

51:57

next big mistake, which was my rebound startup.

51:59

I started, I set my second

52:02

company switch, which is a basically

52:04

Tinder for jobs right after

52:06

sonar and jumped right into it. And

52:09

I like to call that my rebound startup because you know,

52:11

you have a rebound relationship, which you do for

52:14

all the wrong reasons, right? Your rebound relationship

52:16

has nothing to do with the other person. It actually has everything to do

52:18

with you and proving that you are lovable

52:20

and desirable, right? And they usually

52:22

don't turn out well. And I think a rebound

52:25

startup is the same problem. It's you start a startup

52:27

not because you have a great idea or some competitive

52:29

advantage

52:29

or key insight, but rather because you want

52:32

to prove that you are a good entrepreneur.

52:35

And that's a terrible reason to start a startup. And

52:37

that's what I did. We

52:38

got it going, we built it, we launched

52:41

it, we got customers and started to get traction

52:43

and it was time to raise money. I was

52:46

not feeling great about the way

52:48

that founding team is gelling all

52:50

good people, but just wasn't the right collaboration.

52:53

And I said, you know, I don't really want to bring my

52:55

friends money into this thing if I'm

52:57

not going to be doing it for the long term.

52:59

And so I had to make the difficult decision to kind of step

53:01

away from that. And my two

53:03

co-founders, one was Yang, who's my co-founder, who

53:06

was the other is Skyyard Tembo, who's

53:08

a great guy,

53:08

he went on to go and raise half

53:10

a million dollars for that and take a really good run

53:13

at it. So I look at that

53:15

and I say, you know, okay, I will actually learn my lesson

53:17

took twice to really want

53:20

to just like only do things that you are just

53:22

like ultra passionate about. And so

53:24

after switch, I said, okay,

53:27

I am not going to do anything. I'm not going to start another

53:29

company, I need to just learn how to be

53:31

calm. And so I did some consulting,

53:34

some product consulting, and then I said, you know, I

53:36

want to like do some angel investing. Unfortunately, I

53:38

didn't

53:38

have any money at the time. That's actually how

53:41

I started Charge Ventures is because

53:43

I wanted to do angel investing and having money. So

53:45

I had to raise money. And I guess that makes me a venture capitalist.

53:48

So my Fulbright advisor, Thanos,

53:50

he was living in Greece at the time, he reached out

53:53

to me and he said, hey, you know, there's a couple multi-billion

53:55

dollar family offices that were investing off

53:57

balance sheet, they're looking for someone to come in and strike. they're

54:00

investing, I just come out of a successful

54:03

relationship and my lease was up

54:05

and I said summer Greece doesn't sound bad. And so

54:07

I moved to Greece and helped these

54:09

folks structure their family offices.

54:12

And what started as a summer project that, you know,

54:14

here I am eight years later, investing

54:16

had a fun three turned into almost

54:19

decade long career choice here. But

54:21

that's the origin, sort of search venture. So, you know,

54:24

we put together a little mini fund and

54:26

proof of concept, invested a million,

54:28

million and a half bucks in 24 companies, proved access. And

54:31

then, you know, our investors said, hey,

54:33

you guys are doing a pretty good job. Let's, you know, really

54:36

double down here and bring in our friends. And that's actually

54:38

how we got charged our second fund off the ground.

54:41

And we raised about twelve and a half million dollars

54:43

for that. Still small, just getting, you know,

54:45

building. And then that went well. And so everyone

54:47

kind of tripled down, doubled down again. And

54:50

that's how we got to our current fund

54:53

that we're investing out of now. So funny

54:55

how things start small and over time

54:57

you can really make a lot of impact.

54:59

And with the charge ventures, as far as like when

55:02

you said you went to Greece. So originally

55:04

it was Greece money and it's basically been a lot

55:06

of family offices. You said Greece money

55:08

ever since.

55:09

Yeah. I mean, we have investors from all over Europe

55:12

and, you know, and in the U.S. now, I just

55:14

started with a couple folks in Greece

55:16

who took a bet on us. Yeah. But that

55:18

does definitely differentiate you now. I

55:21

would never have thought of that. And I guess, could

55:23

you explain what a family office is? Yeah.

55:25

So a family office is

55:27

when people, if you make

55:29

a bunch of money, you know, somehow you're an

55:31

entrepreneur, let's say, and you sell a company

55:34

and you make up $100 million, you

55:37

could either give your money to like bankers

55:40

and investment advisors and have them manage it. Or

55:42

you can set up a family office if

55:45

you build your own like investing capabilities

55:48

in-house. So you have basically

55:50

managing your own money, but you might hire a couple folks

55:52

to help you do it. And that's what a family office

55:54

is. It's just

55:55

the group of people that manage, you know, private

55:57

wealth.

55:59

about this or the opportunity to do this after

56:02

Switch did not work out. How were you able

56:05

to get this, like kind of land this job, even

56:07

though, again, I know you can kind of get a warm lead

56:09

from whoever you were working with in Milan,

56:11

it sounded like earlier, but are you good

56:13

at just keep contacting people, telling them what you're

56:16

up to and that you're looking for a new opportunity?

56:18

Because that's the thing that I think is kind of interesting,

56:20

how you're able to find all these opportunities. Okay,

56:23

so a lot of people are confused about how,

56:25

you know, Adam Newman, right? And I'm not

56:28

trying to compare myself to Adam Newman, God

56:29

forbid, Adam Newman, the founder of WeWork.

56:33

Yeah, after you said that, then I knew who you were talking

56:35

about, yeah. You know, he raised $70

56:37

million from Andrei Zunharowicz,

56:39

right, so everyone's like, okay, I'm very confused.

56:42

Why is this guy who just

56:44

created WeWork and destroyed a

56:46

bunch of value, how is he able

56:48

to raise $70 million from the most

56:51

reputable VCs in the game? And it's like,

56:53

well, the fact is that there's very few

56:55

people that can build a

56:57

WeWork, right? Like build something that has

56:59

billions of dollars in revenue and,

57:02

you know, even though it didn't work out, right? And,

57:04

you know, he's a weirdo and obviously

57:07

there was a bunch of problems with that organization, right?

57:09

But he did build something that

57:11

was valuable. Same thing with Groupon,

57:13

I think, you know, Andrew Mason found a Groupon,

57:16

he built this, one of the fastest creations of value

57:18

in history, like a $6 billion company

57:21

in like, I don't know, it was like two years or something. And

57:23

people were like, oh, Groupon's terrible and it's not

57:25

useful. And it's like, well, there's so few people

57:27

that get close to building something that's

57:29

worth

57:29

billions of dollars. And the world of possibilities

57:32

of like, who you're gonna invest a couple of million

57:34

dollars with to try to build the next $10 billion

57:36

company, do you wanna take your chances on

57:38

someone that's literally done nothing of

57:41

the sort, anything close to that? Or do you

57:43

wanna take your chances on someone that got close,

57:45

maybe got too close to the sun or built something

57:47

big and then it didn't work out and then has a chip

57:49

on their shoulder and wants to go back after it? And

57:52

so my philosophy has always

57:54

been, as long as you're doing interesting

57:56

things and as long as you're building interesting

57:58

things and making progress.

57:59

and making some sort of an impact, even

58:02

if it didn't find, you know, it

58:04

wasn't forever, right? Like Sonar,

58:06

we touched millions of people's lives. We

58:08

introduced millions of people in

58:10

person in real life. We created literally

58:13

millions of in-personal real world

58:15

connections. The business model never came

58:17

and the business model part, but people now

58:19

know that like Brett Martin is someone that

58:21

can create software that will get

58:23

in the hands of millions of people. And that's a big step

58:26

of the way toward building a successful business,

58:29

internet business.

58:29

And so I think people take

58:32

a chance on you as long as you just

58:34

keep pushing and striving and doing interesting

58:37

things. Now, admittedly, starting

58:39

Charge, it wasn't, I had worked at multiple

58:41

venture capital funds and I had a background

58:44

in equity research and investing.

58:46

So I wouldn't say it was like totally arbitrary

58:49

either.

58:50

I'm here with John Austin. How are you doing today,

58:52

John? Hey, Austin, doing great. Thanks

58:54

for having me. Absolutely. Well, thank you for

58:56

supporting the podcast. And I interviewed John

58:58

on episode 250 of this very podcast.

59:01

So you can hear more about John's story and how

59:03

he grew Fran Bridge Consulting right here. But

59:05

in the meantime, would you mind reminding our listeners

59:07

what you do and what you could potentially help

59:09

them with? Yeah. You know, we work with entrepreneurs

59:12

and investors across the country, helping

59:14

them get into business ownership through franchising.

59:16

And when I say franchising, you likely think fast

59:18

food. And yet there's so many other industries out there

59:21

from home and property services to health

59:23

and wellness from kids, pets, the aging

59:25

population, oil changes, all of these understandable

59:28

cash flowing businesses that oftentimes are

59:30

recession resistant. And 90% of

59:32

our clients end up purchasing an opportunity they never

59:35

thought about. We work with the largest brokerage in

59:37

the country, over 600 different franchise companies.

59:39

Having been a franchise or a franchise, myself,

59:41

I'm very picky about which ones that we show to our clients,

59:44

only the best of the best. The great thing, Austin,

59:46

is it's entirely free to work with us. We're

59:48

funded by the companies very much like an executive

59:50

search type model. So our clients never paste in nickel.

59:53

And we do more deals with our clients than anybody

59:55

else in the country. And what does a typical client

59:57

look like for you? Two thirds of our clients.

59:59

clients would be looking to keep their day job. They're

1:00:02

looking to get into business ownership, maybe as a side

1:00:04

hustler, or maybe they're already a business owner and they can't

1:00:06

get their full attention. We work with doctors,

1:00:08

lawyers, existing business owners, corporate

1:00:10

executives, really a wide array of

1:00:12

backgrounds all around the country.

1:00:14

As far as anyone who might be interested in your

1:00:16

service, is there a best way for them to reach you?

1:00:19

Yeah, come out to our website, Franbridgeconsulting.com.

1:00:21

That's F-R-A-N, Bridgeconsulting.com.

1:00:24

For all of your listeners, Austin, we'll also

1:00:26

send them a copy of our new book, either audio

1:00:29

or PDF version, or they can purchase it on Amazon.

1:00:31

But I would love to share that. Our book is called Non-Food

1:00:33

Franchising. We've got a great feedback

1:00:35

since its release. If you're interested in taking

1:00:37

a next step, let my assistant, Ashley, know,

1:00:40

and she'll schedule a call and we'll

1:00:42

discuss your situation and what could be a good fit.

1:00:44

Yeah, and I know you've already scheduled a few calls with our listeners.

1:00:47

Could you just tell them what that typically is like? Like

1:00:49

how long and if it's free for them to do? Yeah,

1:00:51

we've had a great response from your listeners, entirely

1:00:54

free. Because of the caliber of folks that we

1:00:56

work with, we cut to the chase. We usually

1:00:58

spend 20 to 30 minutes on that first call.

1:01:01

And then as the next step, that following week, we'll come

1:01:03

to them with opportunities, usually around 10 or

1:01:05

so in their market. They're available to check

1:01:07

all the boxes. And we talk them through those

1:01:10

and then make introductions to the ones that

1:01:12

seem most intriguing to them.

1:01:13

Well, that sounds awesome. And again, if someone was interested

1:01:16

in scheduling a call, where's the best place for them to

1:01:18

go ahead and sign up? Yeah, come out to our website, Franbridgeconsulting.com,

1:01:21

F-R-A-N, Bridgeconsulting.com. And

1:01:24

we would love to engage.

1:01:28

Well, that makes sense to me, but I'm just saying, even

1:01:31

the guy that introduced you from when

1:01:33

you were in Milan, right? I mean, after you

1:01:35

got done with Switch, for example,

1:01:37

do you like reach out to people on your network,

1:01:40

just saying, hey, I'm done with Switch, I'm

1:01:42

open to any other opportunities, if you know anything,

1:01:44

I'm looking for something like this, or did

1:01:46

he just happen to randomly email

1:01:48

you and say, this is opportunities available? I'm just trying

1:01:51

to figure out how you're able to do that. Oh

1:01:53

yeah, try to stay close touch with your close friends

1:01:56

whenever you can. And I think

1:01:58

when you're

1:01:58

in between things, like that's... really when you're

1:02:00

really looking forward to your network to

1:02:03

support you.

1:02:04

And so that's what you did after every opportunity

1:02:06

that even if it didn't work out? I'm just curious

1:02:08

like you personally. That's how you did that? Well,

1:02:11

I definitely probably spent some time licking my wounds

1:02:14

between projects. But I

1:02:16

think once you come out and reemerge,

1:02:18

then yeah, you got to get yourself out there. I think a lot of people,

1:02:20

they feel bad. They don't feel like they have something to offer.

1:02:23

And so they stay behind closed doors and don't

1:02:25

reach out to people. And obviously, no

1:02:27

one's going to find you if you don't make yourself available. Yeah,

1:02:30

I mean, that's kind of what I was trying to allude to. And for anyone

1:02:32

who's listening now,

1:02:34

the guy didn't randomly just reach out to

1:02:36

you, I didn't think. And obviously, you

1:02:38

can be upset, obviously, that maybe things don't

1:02:40

work at Switch or Sonar or whatever for weeks,

1:02:43

months, whatever. But eventually, you have to

1:02:45

get back on the horse and you can't just sit there.

1:02:47

People talk about how startups are risky

1:02:50

all the time. And what I tell people is, you know,

1:02:52

what's risky is working the same

1:02:54

job for a decade, not learning

1:02:56

any new skills, and then eventually being replaced

1:02:59

or automated and having nothing

1:03:01

to add, and then being flat footed

1:03:04

with new skills 10 years later. A

1:03:06

startup, as long as you're

1:03:08

doing something interesting, and you're on the cutting edge,

1:03:10

and you're learning the next thing, even

1:03:12

if it doesn't work out, guess what? There's going to be

1:03:15

lots of people that are going to be very interested

1:03:17

in hiring you and learning from

1:03:19

your expertise and learning from

1:03:21

your mistakes. So I actually think startups

1:03:23

are, in that sense, are less risky than

1:03:26

people assume.

1:03:27

Yeah. Well, I guess looking back on your story,

1:03:29

I don't know if there's any personal things that you've

1:03:31

learned from or any other thoughts

1:03:34

that you have in closing with this interview. I

1:03:36

mean, I think you did a pretty thorough job. It's probably

1:03:38

the most thorough life history

1:03:41

I've ever done, at least professionally.

1:03:43

What I will close with is, I

1:03:46

don't know if you've ever seen the The Last

1:03:49

Dance documentary on the Michael Jordan and

1:03:51

Chicago Bulls. It's a 10 part series.

1:03:53

It's amazing. Highly recommend it for anyone wants

1:03:56

to be inspired. It starts

1:03:57

with him as a young man, you know,

1:03:59

moving.

1:03:59

into the Bulls franchise, which was terrible

1:04:02

at the time, and being interviewed and him

1:04:04

talking about how he just wants to bring

1:04:06

honor to the city of Chicago and build

1:04:09

a great franchise like the Celtics

1:04:12

or the Lakers. And it ends with him

1:04:14

victorious winning six titles,

1:04:17

and they play the same clip over again.

1:04:19

And then they interview him and he

1:04:22

says, it all begins with hope. And

1:04:24

yeah, I just think about that a lot is that it all

1:04:26

begins with hope and you got to believe that it's

1:04:28

possible to win before

1:04:29

you're ever going to win. And so for

1:04:32

the people out there who are aspiring and entrepreneurs

1:04:35

and thinking about it and maybe a little nervous

1:04:37

about getting started and don't want to take

1:04:39

too much risk, I mean, I just say it

1:04:41

all begins with hope. So believe in yourself

1:04:44

and see where that takes you. Well,

1:04:45

thank you, Brett, for coming on and sharing

1:04:47

your story. Again, if anyone want to check it out,

1:04:50

it's kumospacekumospace.com.

1:04:54

They can check that out. And then if someone wants

1:04:56

to say thank you for doing the interview, what's

1:04:58

the best way for them to reach out and say thank you?

1:05:00

Oh, yeah, you can just ping me on Twitter at Brett,

1:05:03

B-R-E-T-T-1-2-1-1, or

1:05:05

if I'm here on LinkedIn, or if you

1:05:08

are starting a company and you want to get feedback

1:05:10

on your deck or looking to raise funding, you can always

1:05:13

ping me at Brett, B-R-E-T-T-E-at

1:05:15

charge.bc, and just

1:05:17

reference this podcast so I know where you're

1:05:19

coming from.

1:05:20

Awesome. Thank you again for doing the interview

1:05:22

and really appreciate it. And y'all be sure to reach

1:05:25

out to Brett on LinkedIn or Twitter. So thanks

1:05:27

again for coming on.

1:05:28

Thank you, sir. It was a pleasure.

1:05:32

But it's bad when you do it to your wife, though,

1:05:34

because then you have to crash on the couch. See,

1:05:38

I have to sleep on the couch every night too, man. See, we're

1:05:40

the same.

1:05:42

Was that helpful at all, Gary? Say no.

1:05:46

Worst experience of my life, one-star

1:05:48

review. Yeah, thank you. I'm

1:05:50

used to those. Wish I could leave no stars. Oh, yeah. Oh,

1:05:53

no. Thanks, guys. It was a really great

1:05:55

experience. I feel like there's

1:05:57

a lot to reflect on. See, thank you.

1:06:01

And I can connect you with somebody too. Okay.

1:06:04

I have connections on that so I can help you get

1:06:06

it custom made, dirt cheap. I'll

1:06:09

share that with you. Look at that Patreon membership

1:06:11

already paying off.

1:06:13

Aww, look at that.

1:06:16

Thanks for coming, member. Oh, well,

1:06:18

I got to thank my business partner. She's

1:06:20

signing me up because I've been talking about you. Well,

1:06:22

awesome business partner. I'm gonna have to use that as a plug

1:06:24

to tell people to do the same thing. Yeah,

1:06:27

yeah, it's really cool. But anyway, yeah, thanks for

1:06:29

setting this up. I get kind of the VIP

1:06:31

treatment if you like. Well,

1:06:34

I thought it was a lot more intimate than I thought it was going

1:06:36

to be. Like anyone who's thinking about doing it, you'll

1:06:38

be able to get involved, ask a question,

1:06:41

you know, which I don't have a lot of experience

1:06:43

with other group calls, but I would assume

1:06:46

that there's

1:06:46

kind of a hierarchy to it. But this one, if you're

1:06:48

in there, you're going to get your shot to ask

1:06:50

an expert question. So I

1:06:52

tried to compare my group calls. I started joining

1:06:55

random entrepreneur groups and just joining

1:06:57

their group calls and try to see what they're like. Dude,

1:07:00

the one you were on and all of them have kind of gone

1:07:02

that way. They're all 10X better than any

1:07:04

other group I've been in because

1:07:06

become a member to find out. So

1:07:11

with Patreon, I heard it many times

1:07:13

because you have that many episodes of sign

1:07:15

up. So that's always in back of mind. But then

1:07:17

I checked it out a few times and I was

1:07:19

like, do I really want to do this? So I'll

1:07:21

push it off a little bit. And then you posted

1:07:24

your goal achievement of 69

1:07:27

Patreon members. And I was like, you know, what

1:07:29

better time than now? Originally,

1:07:32

I was going to go for the lower one than $9 a month.

1:07:34

But one, I want to have the conversation with you. But

1:07:37

two, I always find that any time I cheap

1:07:39

out, I always find that I want to

1:07:41

return it and upgrade to what I really,

1:07:44

really wanted. So that's

1:07:46

why I'm paying the higher one, if

1:07:48

that makes sense. But it was just constantly

1:07:51

pushing it off, pushing it off. And then I

1:07:53

would just say, fuck it. I already listened to

1:07:55

all of them. So why not? you