0:00

So basically we're good points. Trying to do

0:02

is we're trying to build the ultimate capital

0:04

allocation. Engine for these ecosystems

0:06

and allow people to deploy these token

0:08

ice treasuries to allocate them to fund

0:11

what matters in their communities. We're seeing

0:13

a lot of adoption by L Twos

0:15

and Alice to ease and projects that

0:18

want to use Get Coin Grants The

0:20

Power Giggling grants in their own communities.

0:22

Get Coins flagship product over the years

0:25

has been this thing called quadratic Funding.

0:27

and the reason why quadratic funding is

0:29

powerful is also one of it's vulnerabilities.

0:32

As. We increase the cost

0:34

of forgery for attackers. We

0:36

accidentally increase the cost for

0:38

real users to verify their

0:40

identity with get clean password.

0:57

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2:51

Chorus.one. Welcome

2:53

to Epicenter, the show which talks

2:56

about the technologies, projects and people driving

2:58

decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Frida

3:00

Rika-Ans and today I'm speaking with Kevin

3:02

Awaki, who is the founder of Gitcoin,

3:05

a grant distribution project originally on Ethereum

3:07

and now on a whole lot of

3:10

other chains as well. Kevin,

3:13

you've been on Epicenter before. Welcome back.

3:16

So glad to be back. Thanks for having me. Cool.

3:19

It's been a while since you've been on, I think

3:21

like two or three years. So give

3:24

us your and Gitcoin's backstory in a

3:27

nutshell. Yeah,

3:29

for sure. Well, you know, one

3:31

of the cool things about having been in

3:34

the space for the last seven years, and I think this

3:36

is my third Epicenter episode, is that I

3:38

actually, the first Epicenter episode I did was

3:41

within a month of the launch of

3:43

Gitcoin grants, which has been the platform

3:46

that has helped the Ethereum community fund

3:49

$60 million worth of open source software

3:52

and public goods for the Ethereum

3:54

community. And that was January 2019 that

3:57

we launched Gitcoin 1.0. And

4:00

that was about the time that I appear on Appa

4:02

Center the first time. Over

4:06

the last couple of years, we have

4:08

been progressively decentralizing Bitcoin. And I am

4:10

here today to talk about the Bitcoin

4:12

2.0 white paper, which outlines our vision

4:15

for a decentralized Bitcoin. So hopefully taking

4:17

the power of Bitcoin grants and that

4:19

$60 million worth of Ethereum public goods

4:21

that have been funded on the platform

4:23

and putting in the power of any

4:26

community that is based on top of

4:28

the EVM. So progressively decentralizing and progressively

4:30

having more impact over time. Perfect.

4:34

We will talk about all of that in just a

4:36

little bit. Bitcoin leadership has kind of

4:38

changed somewhat over the years. So I know you

4:40

were gone for at least a little bit. So

4:43

what's your current involvement? So

4:47

my current title is co-founder and

4:49

I am acting CTO of Grants

4:51

Lab, which is the organization that

4:54

is pushing for the software development

4:56

at the Bitcoin DAO. Bitcoin,

4:59

as I said in the intro,

5:01

has been progressively decentralizing over time.

5:04

In 2021, when the Bitcoin DAO

5:07

launched, we launched the GTC token and

5:09

the GTC and that was sort of

5:11

like a transfer of power from at

5:13

the time. Bitcoin was a corporation and

5:15

I was the CEO of it. So

5:17

all of the decisions sort of rolled up

5:19

to me. And when it became a DAO,

5:21

the decisions transferred over to

5:23

the token holders who were ultimately responsible

5:26

for the fate. And as part of

5:28

the transfer of power, our legal team

5:30

felt that it was necessary for me

5:32

to disaffiliate from the project for

5:34

at least a little while. And I

5:36

think I was in total disaffiliated for 15 or 16

5:38

months. During that

5:41

time, I was working on a project called

5:43

Super Modular, which basically at

5:45

the time we thought that we would kind of the

5:47

setup would be similar

5:50

to how the Ethereum Foundation builds

5:52

the Ethereum protocol and Consensus, Joe

5:54

Lubin's startup, builds things

5:56

on top of it, things like Metamask

5:59

or Gnosis. That

6:01

was kind of the setup between the

6:03

Gitcoin, DAO, and Super Modular. Super

6:05

Modular was building software in the Gitcoin

6:07

ecosystem, and Gitcoin was building the core

6:09

protocols, which makes me, I guess, like

6:11

one-one-thousandth of a Joe Lubin. But

6:14

we were just building stuff in the

6:16

Gitcoin ecosystem for a couple years, and

6:19

after that time

6:21

I ended up re-affiliating with the project as of,

6:23

I think it was September of 2023. And

6:27

I'm glad to be back in the fold and helping

6:29

push the core protocol forward. We're

6:31

seeing a lot of adoption by L2s

6:33

and LSTs and projects that want to

6:35

use Gitcoin grants, the power of Gitcoin

6:37

grants, in their own communities. So it's

6:39

quite an interesting time to be helping

6:41

people fund what matters in their communities

6:43

because lots of people with tokenized treasuries

6:45

that are trying to build active communities

6:47

around them. I

6:50

have to admit that last time I tried

6:52

participating in the funding round, and I've participated

6:54

in many, many, many funding rounds because you've

6:56

had like 20 or something, right? I

7:01

must admit I gave up. I didn't make

7:03

it. I did not actually

7:05

make any contributions at all. I

7:08

think it was in the late summer or fall last

7:10

year. And

7:12

I failed at authenticating enough

7:15

ways to kind of get a Gitcoin passport

7:17

or something, something that wasn't

7:19

necessary to kind of contribute earlier.

7:22

So that's about the Gitcoin passport

7:24

and why you felt it needed

7:26

to be introduced. And

7:28

I know this wasn't just me. So basically I

7:30

know lots of other people have kind of seemed

7:32

to have the same problem on Twitter at least.

7:36

Sure. Yeah. Well,

7:39

certainly value your honest feedback in the road

7:41

to progressive decentralization has not been without setbacks.

7:43

And sometimes there have been many happy to

7:45

talk about any and all of them. So

7:48

basically Gitcoin's

7:51

flagship product over the years has been this

7:53

thing called quadratic funding. And

7:55

the reason why quadratic funding is powerful

7:57

is also one of its vulnerabilities. And

8:00

quadratic funding is a mechanism invented by

8:02

Glenn Weil from Microsoft Vitalik Buterin,

8:04

the founder of Ethereum and Zoe Hitzig. And

8:06

basically the way it works is that, Frederique,

8:09

if you have a grant that raises $100

8:12

for $100 from 100 contributors, and

8:15

I have a grant that raises $100 from one contributor, you're

8:18

gonna get 99% of the matching pool

8:20

because we're trying to fund what matters to a

8:22

broad swath of the Ethereum community. So that's really

8:24

powerful because it means that lots of people will

8:27

come out of the woodwork to contribute to these

8:29

grants because even giving a dollar can

8:31

get matched with tens or hundreds

8:33

of dollars from the matching pool, depending on how big

8:35

the matching pool is and how many other contributors there

8:37

are to the grant. Okay, so that's really

8:40

powerful. We're pushing power to

8:42

the edges of the Ethereum community

8:44

by funding with quadratic funding,

8:46

but that power is also a

8:49

drawback, okay? So

8:52

the vulnerability in this, and since

8:54

your listeners are in the Ethereum

8:56

community, I'm assuming they're adversarial thinkers.

9:00

If I have $100 to my

9:02

grant with only one contributor, and you have $100

9:04

to your grant with 100 contributors, and

9:07

you're getting 99% of the matching pool, I

9:09

have a rational incentive to make up 100

9:11

different identities in order to contribute to my

9:14

grant and get more of the matching pool.

9:16

So that's what's called a Sybil attack. It's

9:18

a sock puppet attack. And

9:20

that's why we've introduced

9:22

Gitcoin Passport into the system to

9:25

allow people to verify their identity

9:27

and increase the cost of

9:30

forgery so that your

9:32

identity cannot be falsified. Now, the problem

9:34

that we ran into, and keep in

9:36

mind this is all live beta software

9:38

where we're kind of trying to figure

9:41

it out as we go along, is

9:43

that as we increase the cost of

9:45

forgery for attackers, we accidentally increase the

9:47

cost for real users to verify their

9:49

identity with Gitcoin Passport. And not only

9:51

do we have to, we have to

9:53

walk this line where we make the

9:55

system not Sybil, like we have

9:57

to make the system Sybil resistant, but we have to make

9:59

it private. preserving and we have

10:01

to lower the friction for end

10:04

users. So that's

10:06

a little bit about why Passport

10:08

exists and the problem that we

10:10

are trying to solve. And the

10:12

thing I'll say is that the

10:14

Passport team has heard everyone's feedback

10:16

loud and clear and they are

10:19

working on a no friction way

10:21

of verifying civil resistance. I can

10:23

get into that if it's interesting

10:25

to your listeners but GG20, Gitcoin

10:27

Grants 20 is coming up

10:29

in April and I would encourage everyone who

10:31

gave up during Gitcoin 19 or Gitcoin 18

10:34

to give it another try because we've been

10:36

putting a lot of work into making the

10:38

friction way less for people and I'll be curious to

10:40

hear if it paid off. The nice thing about Gitcoin

10:42

Grants is that we've run 20 rounds and

10:45

it's an iteration every single round. We

10:47

take the feedback from our community and

10:49

the feedback from Vitalik and other game

10:51

theorists and try to fold it into

10:53

the next iteration of Gitcoin Grants. So

10:56

it's a deeply iterative evolutionary experiment and

10:58

we value your feedback because it helps

11:00

us make it suck less next time.

11:04

Tell us what you've changed to

11:06

make it less painful. Yeah,

11:10

so there's two things. They're both really

11:13

data science heavy. So we've been investing

11:15

in some like PhD level data scientists

11:17

too. Number one, there's a stamp called

11:19

the ETH stamp which basically goes out

11:22

and uses a lot of complicated data

11:24

analysis and machine learning to look at

11:26

all the on-chain signals behind your address

11:29

and to figure out if you're a

11:31

civil attacker or not. So like something

11:34

that that algorithm would find is that

11:36

if there's a hundred accounts that are

11:38

all funded by the same account, that's

11:40

probably a civil attacker. That's probably someone

11:42

who's just gassing up a bunch of

11:44

different accounts so that they can civil

11:47

attack at Gitcoin Grants. So for the

11:49

end user, that is a just

11:52

one click connect and sign your message

11:54

in order to get above the matching

11:56

threshold on Gitcoin Grants to get that

11:58

stamp. And... You know,

12:00

before, well, you tell

12:02

me what your experience was in GG19 or GG20, but before

12:06

you would have to go through and click a bunch of stamps

12:08

in order to get up to the threshold. And now it should

12:10

just be a couple of clicks using that

12:13

machine learning algorithm. And then the second thing

12:15

that I just want to talk about really quickly

12:17

is this new algorithm that it was

12:19

invented by Joel Miller, who is a

12:21

data scientist on

12:23

the Gitcoin team called cluster mapping.

12:25

And basically what cluster mapping does

12:27

is it's

12:30

a way of clustering contributors who contribute

12:33

to the same grants together and treating

12:35

them as though they're the same identity.

12:38

And so basically, if someone's civil attacking a

12:40

Gitcoin grant, and they make up 100 new

12:43

accounts, and they all those 100 accounts only

12:45

contribute to the same Gitcoin grant, for

12:47

the purposes of the QF algorithm, they

12:49

are just one identity. And

12:53

basically, if I was a civil

12:55

attacker trying to attack Gitcoin grants, then I

12:57

would have to contribute to a bunch of

12:59

other grants in order to make my identities

13:01

unique and uncluster them from each other. And

13:04

basically what this does is it takes the

13:06

energy of the attackers, the funding of the

13:08

attackers and makes sure that they're funding a

13:10

bunch of public goods on

13:13

Gitcoin in order to attack the system.

13:15

So it kind of takes like Karate Kid

13:17

style, takes your opponent's momentum and uses it

13:20

against them in a way. So

13:24

yeah, in some cluster mapping and the

13:26

ETH stamp are the two ways that

13:28

we're really reducing friction using cutting edge

13:31

data science behind the scenes in order

13:33

to provide civil and collusion attacks on

13:35

QF, but also keeping the user friction

13:37

low. I

13:40

totally understand the approach. Is there

13:42

a way to kind of escalate this if

13:45

I feel misclassified? So say for

13:47

instance, I told my 50 friends

13:49

that they should definitely give to

13:52

say, Rottke. And

13:55

they do, but they only give to Rottke. So

13:57

we see there's like 50 people who only give

13:59

to Rottke because... I told them there's

14:01

a fantastic project, please give to

14:03

it. Can I then kind of

14:05

escalate the fact that they were

14:07

so to say disqualified from

14:10

the matching pool? Yeah,

14:13

so I mean the first method of

14:15

feedback is contacting the Bitcoin support. So

14:17

in the bottom right of your browser

14:19

window, you can chat with someone on

14:22

the Bitcoin support team and just say,

14:24

hey, I don't agree with this or

14:26

hey, here's my feedback. Your UX sucks

14:28

in this browser combination,

14:31

web3 login combination. That's the first layer.

14:33

The second layer is that you can

14:36

go to gov.getcoin.co and

14:38

you can escalate it to the DAO

14:40

governance structures. So this

14:42

is all transparent political economy happening

14:45

out in the open. And

14:47

if you're not happy with the way things

14:49

that are working, then that's another way to

14:51

escalate things. And then the

14:53

third way is just complaining on Twitter. I

14:55

know that Bitcoin has had some missteps in

14:57

the last year and a half and I'm

14:59

partially responsible for that as the founder and

15:01

we listen to all that feedback and

15:04

Bitcoin is, like I said, iterative and

15:06

evolutionary and your complaining helps

15:08

make Bitcoin grants 21 better. So

15:10

please tell us through

15:13

any of those channels when you don't like what

15:15

you're seeing. Perfect. So

15:18

maybe let's back up a little bit. Why

15:20

is capital allocation a difficult

15:22

problem that kind of needs this

15:25

level of infrastructure to tackle? I

15:29

think that what we're seeing in 2024

15:33

is really quite interesting. We've

15:35

got thousands of DAOs or

15:37

tokenized communities that have tens or

15:39

hundreds of millions, sometimes billions of

15:41

dollars of capital in their treasury.

15:44

And they all want to build

15:47

ecosystems around their software stack. And

15:49

so Justin Drake was

15:51

just on A bankless episode in

15:53

which he was talking to David about how the

15:55

L2 meta, how L2s are competing with each other.

15:57

And He said that L2s are going to. The

16:00

compete ah for liquidity and on infrastructure

16:02

and on sequencers, end and on tooling

16:04

and on public goods and them. You

16:06

know like the one teens I would

16:09

say to to what Justin said is

16:11

it is it Public goods are are

16:13

the way that you get all of

16:15

those other things Injury Go Systems have.

16:17

You can solve the problem of capital

16:19

allocation. You can invite the builders in

16:22

theory, go system to build, tooling to

16:24

build, infrastructure to build and. To.

16:26

Build I had liquidity and on service

16:28

glee. What get coins trying to do

16:30

is we're trying to build be ultimate

16:32

capital allocation. Ends. In for

16:35

these ecosystems and allow people to

16:37

deploy be so nice treasuries to

16:39

allocate them to fund what matters

16:42

in their communities. So. Basically the

16:44

problem of capital out a sin is

16:46

is how do we find what matters

16:48

in in these communities How do we

16:50

run quadratic funding rounds that that help

16:52

incentivize the outer ring of builders and

16:54

your to mean the how Do We

16:56

Run retroactive Public Goods funding rounds is

16:58

in order to incentivize. I mean

17:00

these in in order to add value value

17:03

to them. So am I think that like

17:05

the immediate answer in the crypto spaces like

17:07

the most effective tactic available. Or if you're

17:09

competing as an L To or in L

17:11

a C or in L R T or

17:13

a D Five project is to build a

17:16

community of of hackers that are and yet

17:18

the orbit of your ecosystem. And so you

17:20

know that's the near term goal for decline

17:22

grants his to help these communities fund what

17:24

matters to them in the near future. Now

17:26

I think in ten or twenty years we're

17:29

going to take be the. Tools that we

17:31

have pioneered in the Crypto space We

17:33

and others have pioneered in the Crypto

17:35

space arm and we're going to take

17:37

the mainstream and in ten or twenty

17:39

years, I would love to live in

17:41

a world in which local towns and

17:43

cities and states are running retroactive public

17:45

goods funding rounds in quadratic funding rounds

17:47

using tools that are pioneered in the

17:49

Cup. This is, I think we can

17:51

do better. Capital allocation using blocked in

17:54

there was possible in the old world.

17:56

Weed out and do skill level and

17:58

precise capital out issue without intermediaries. Who

18:00

can do more democrat the capital allocation

18:02

there was possible before and to me

18:04

that's the true purpose of Crypto is

18:06

removing intermediaries and help a peep helping

18:08

people get funding for doing good in

18:10

their communities. So I yeah, near term

18:12

answer: We're going to help. Ah, armed

18:14

armed people who are building Gbm base

18:16

communities. But long term it's a it's

18:18

about helping the world funded public goods

18:20

and helping the world allocate capital a

18:22

democratic way. Please.

18:25

You talked about quadratic funding

18:27

earlier were kind of that.

18:29

The impact. Your. Vote has

18:31

depends on the square root of

18:33

how much you're giving you. Also

18:36

mentioned retroactive public good Suddenly right

18:38

now Penny read the statement that

18:40

is. Yes,

18:43

Sir. So I'm but just to zoom out

18:45

a little bit. I'm a one way that

18:47

we describe get coin one. Potter's like you

18:49

como put it was like a screwdriver. It

18:51

only did quadratic funding good. Point two point

18:54

Oh is like a multi tool is going

18:56

to do quadratic funding. A waxy to read

18:58

those quadratic funding it does retroactive public goods

19:00

on doing it does Zurich grants. It does

19:02

all these different flavors of of funding. So

19:04

all that tuck. Has through all of the flavors

19:07

that you support now. Sir

19:09

yea I will ya. Civil rights record

19:12

public goods funding so I'll start with

19:14

that. I'm good point has of. I

19:16

I've been working with the Optimism or

19:19

can indeed in order to build a

19:21

tool called Easy Recipes yes.x Y Z

19:23

And that's basically the same voting interface

19:25

that Optimism uses for retroactive public goods

19:28

funding in their community. I'm retroactive Public.

19:30

It's Funding, as as your listeners made

19:32

out, is based off of the idea

19:34

that it's easier to find things that

19:37

have had an impact in the past

19:39

than it is to speculate about which

19:41

things will have impact in the future

19:43

because you have all the data available

19:46

about what's. Actually.done, good in these

19:48

communities. So basically using retroactive Public

19:50

Goods funding you set up a

19:52

system of badge holders who are

19:54

community members who are are highly

19:56

regarded in the community, have good

19:58

judgment, and have. About three

20:00

to five hours per quarter in

20:02

order to. Allocate.

20:05

Capital to to what has done good

20:08

in the past and so on. Optimism

20:10

has been pioneering. Be retroactive public goods

20:12

funding space within the A theory and

20:15

ecosystem and we've partnered with them to

20:17

make their flavor of couple of allocation

20:19

available to any other dow in the

20:22

I Am space that one see retroactive

20:24

public goods funding. So I we've got

20:26

our first pilot of Easy Recipes you

20:28

have.x y Z available coming up in

20:31

the yard. And the next

20:33

month it'll be in in April and our

20:35

working with at a i think I can

20:37

say the Sony or but of file coin

20:40

pocket Cielo or in order to enrich her

20:42

Pdf rounds in their community so yeah just

20:44

just dies What your listeners to like I

20:46

wanted like drilling on this point you claim

20:48

opener was just us it went to Bulldoze

20:51

is many different flavors of a of cop

20:53

while case and Nqf and retro Pdf or

20:55

to to the ones that were most excited

20:57

about right now happy to go into the

20:59

others or to take questions have already Rpgs.

21:03

When. Pressed Restroom Pts be fully ten

21:05

of go into the At Us and

21:08

so you set that You have to

21:10

design a set of people. Who.

21:12

Are allowed to tennis make.

21:15

Em adaptations of had a vote on and

21:17

of what should. We. Cease

21:19

funding. Why? Do you

21:21

have to do that for a far

21:23

as Pdf that not for are not

21:25

for quadratic funding. Yet.

21:28

So I'm. We're. We're kind

21:31

of like almost mixing two things arm. The

21:33

The prospect of retroactive vs. perspectives on doing

21:35

is is just like sort of like a

21:37

spectrum of are you finding things that are

21:40

only good in the past? Are you finding

21:42

things that are good in the past and

21:44

in the future? So that's like that's like

21:46

one spectrum and then it spectrum is the

21:48

allow list. Who gets to vote and then

21:51

quadratic funding does this all us When it's

21:53

actually pretty radical to think anyone in the

21:55

community can vote with their dollars or or

21:57

their east that they bring. whereas retro rhetoric

22:00

the public good startling is a little bit

22:02

less democratic in it's a more a little

22:04

bit more technocratic. So basically you aside a

22:06

badge holders someone in your community that well

22:09

regarded in well informed that gets to vote

22:11

as dumb. As the I kind

22:13

of think of, this has a spectrum of

22:15

like on the on the left hand side.

22:17

If it's just the core team in the

22:19

founders that get to decide who allocates capital

22:21

will that's completely technocratic and sort of like

22:24

insular and a no one gets to decide

22:26

and a badge holders are just away for.

22:28

For. Our communities to slowly dole

22:30

out that responsibility to their most trusted

22:33

team, in the members and in what

22:35

I think we're going to see with

22:37

retroactive public goods funding is communities that

22:39

have had direct grants programs and maybe

22:42

there's a grants him illustrator who's become

22:44

a power broker in their community start

22:46

to be able to dole out in

22:48

progressively decentralized that. That responsibility

22:50

but also that power to their community

22:53

in into you start to reach out

22:55

and have what what optimism has which

22:57

is hundreds of badge holders who are

22:59

making decisions and then you. I think

23:01

the ultimate destination looks a little bit

23:04

more like us were. Maybe you'll have

23:06

thousands of badge holders that are making

23:08

decisions about funding what matters. It's about

23:10

progressively decentralizing that power. So I'm when

23:12

we talk about the difference between us

23:15

and Retro Pdf. I think people get

23:17

a little bit tripped up because we're

23:19

actually traversing two. Different spectrums of the

23:21

design space the first as retroactive

23:23

versus proactive, and the second is.

23:26

How technocratic vs democratic is is the

23:28

vote and dumb You know a couple

23:30

out as soon as a design space

23:32

is jimmy. Many dots along this design

23:35

space that those this happened to be

23:37

to the the community is exploring right

23:39

now. As

23:41

super interesting an end, what are the

23:43

other capital allocation schemes that you have

23:46

integrate into good kind? Two point. Oh.

23:50

So. I'm only be very clear about

23:52

what exists right now and then what exists in

23:54

the future because I think a lot of like

23:56

one of the radical things we did with the

23:58

get going to put away papers like. We.

24:00

Didn't write the get going to point out why

24:02

paper in and say hey we're going to build

24:04

it over the next five years. This stuff is

24:06

live already so we've We've got direct rants which

24:09

is just plain simple vanilla grants you can go

24:11

out and a grant him in a suit or

24:13

can run and on chain grant program. I'm.

24:15

We got quadratic funding which is what

24:18

get coins historically known for our we've

24:20

got retroactive public goods funding that's already

24:22

live And then we've got convicts in

24:24

Voting pilot that we were working on

24:27

without one hive. So basically convicts in

24:29

voting is is is sort of like

24:31

an interesting way of doing Cabrillo case

24:33

in which you state governments tokens and

24:35

make a remove money from the treasury.

24:38

the more or governance tokens have been

24:40

states in the longer they've been steaks.

24:43

And. Then of we've got a couple

24:45

of this mechanism called streaming Quadratic

24:47

Funding which is a which is

24:49

a partnership between to your web

24:52

and superfluid and get coin in

24:54

which basically instead of funding. Public.

24:56

Goods: Quadratic leave for two weeks per

24:59

quarter. You could have an always on

25:01

stream of revenue that is being continuously

25:03

allocated to different or grants and your

25:05

ecosystem. So those are the five that

25:08

exist right now. Direct grants, quadratic funding,

25:10

Conviction voting, Retro Pdf, and streaming Q

25:12

S We've got a road map of

25:15

around a dozen other mechanisms that we

25:17

want to build into the Get Cooling

25:19

toolbox into the future. And dumb, you

25:21

don't. Like I said, this is all

25:24

in service of helping communities on what

25:26

matters. We see a future in

25:28

which Ah communities are gonna be

25:30

funding their ecosystem in a plurality

25:32

of different mechanisms and we think

25:34

these mechanisms are all complimentary with

25:36

each other. I think there's the

25:38

matter. The most effective tactic for

25:40

someone watching the Vm based community

25:42

in the next cycle is gonna

25:45

be not just having a regular

25:47

grants program but also doing to

25:49

us in retro Pdf and index

25:51

in voting all together and them.

25:53

In India so that the visit is

25:56

basically to to have an ecosystem of

25:58

capital out a sin that. The

26:00

funds, your community and complimentary

26:02

ways to ah, just your

26:04

existing Direct Rats program. Can

26:08

you give examples of way you think

26:10

each of these schemes were? Be particularly

26:12

at it as active because if they're

26:14

if they're all about the same. You.

26:16

Wouldn't need some and at. Yes,

26:19

Sir, I'm happy to have the word

26:22

steam makes me feel a little bit

26:24

dirty A because a lot of these

26:26

things are deeply rooted in in game

26:28

theory, but the yeah' decides to answer

26:30

your question. I'm a Quadratic funding is

26:33

really good at democratic capital allocation. invites

26:35

people on the outer edges of your

26:37

community to find what matters to them.

26:40

Retroactive: Public Goods funding

26:42

is really good at progressive

26:44

Lead decentralizing the responsibility from

26:46

a centralized grants administrator to.

26:49

To. A group of trusted community members and

26:51

then eventually many more of your community members

26:54

to fund what matters to them. Convicts.

26:56

In Voting is really good at creating

26:58

bottoms Up momentum and York's New The

27:00

Tell People funds. The. The

27:03

public goods that matter to them

27:05

and I you know if if

27:07

a normal government's proposal or process

27:09

takes I will hours to write

27:11

the grant proposal and then it

27:13

take all the token holders to

27:15

vote on it and in some

27:17

he spends a hundred hours of

27:19

of token holder attention conviction voting

27:21

is really nice because you you

27:23

you you're not doing i'm million

27:25

dollar grants wishes with hundreds of

27:28

dollars are hundreds of hours of

27:30

attention you're doing ah like of.

27:32

A five hundred dollars plus fun for a party

27:34

that someone in your community wants to host and

27:36

they only have to stake thousands of their of

27:38

their governance tokens in order to pull it out.

27:41

has like a very bottoms up way of doing

27:43

capital out. His and so I think these are

27:45

all these things are all good at. Like.

27:47

It is. It's ill of the analogy

27:49

of of of a multi tool I

27:51

think really works like for the same

27:53

reason that ah scissors and a Phillips

27:55

Head screwdriver and pliers solve different problems

27:57

around the house. He said these capital

27:59

allocation to solve different. Ways.

28:02

Of doing capital our case in your community that are

28:04

all complimentary to each other. So I think of it

28:06

as like a multi tool or like a tool box

28:08

of different tools. They complement each other. Plate.

28:12

You, you were just talking about staking

28:14

the token that's relevant for that community.

28:17

You guys us have your own health

28:19

and that you creep briefly alluded to

28:21

earlier. What is that used

28:23

for? Yup.

28:26

So. A D D C is the

28:28

A is the get Coins hogan and

28:30

Gdc stands for get Coin or A

28:32

like to say that is so is

28:34

since her govern the community. Of

28:37

it's a government soak in and basically

28:39

it's a fork of Uni which itself

28:42

is a fork of compounds are using

28:44

g D C and he token holders

28:46

can delegate their governance power to a

28:48

member of the community that's more active.

28:51

Or them them. There's as the get

28:53

coins token dropped in two thousand and

28:55

Twenty one and there is around fourteen

28:57

thousand and holders at that time who

28:59

were delegating to about one hundred a

29:02

hundred and fifty keys. decision makers in

29:04

the community. And. Dumb Yeah!

29:06

Gdc is is basically a governance

29:08

token that allows you to govern

29:11

be decline. Smart contracts on same

29:13

and article in smart contracts are

29:15

basically the treasury. And then there's

29:17

also Aloe Protocol which is our

29:20

capital allocation protocol That I'm yeah,

29:22

there's there's a fee switch within

29:24

the protocol, the is governed by

29:27

the Gtc holders and then there's

29:29

the the treasury's that are governed

29:31

by the Ttc holders and there's

29:33

active discover that discussions. On Gov

29:36

Decay Coin.co about how to evolve this

29:38

or into the future but I'm yeah

29:40

they're the sort. Answers your question is

29:42

is governing both Aloe protocol in the

29:44

treasury. Okay

29:47

then let's maybe dive into adult products because kind

29:49

of like a they get fined to buy no

29:51

vision. And. Is kind of like

29:53

a three tiered stat where's Am A

29:55

D L Part A client. At

29:58

the bottom or top, however, Way

30:00

you look at it. So. Tough has to

30:02

that. The. The

30:04

barrel start is they are we go kick

30:06

on one per know. totally wrong and I

30:09

just wanna like raise my hand in front

30:11

of your your audience and say I built

30:13

it centralized and monolithic and I have seen

30:15

the light and modular and decentralized is the

30:17

way to go. So. So. Tickling

30:19

Weapon or was a centralized monolith it was

30:22

hosted on it. It'll be a server in

30:24

Oregon that I set up and get going

30:26

to point out is posted on a theory

30:28

him and on ip of that. So per

30:30

a our public goods funding mechanisms are decentralized

30:33

that we are eating our decentralized vegetables. So.

30:35

I'm physically or this is a Allah

30:37

protocol is a modular sweet of smart

30:40

contracts that allows people to basically it's

30:42

easily fork of. Also, anyone can fork,

30:44

get coin, grandson build their own capital

30:47

allocation mechanism into it. But if you

30:49

don't care about. Coding Ah,

30:51

you can just basically use this

30:53

tool called good Point ransacked with

30:55

his the web application that allows

30:57

anyone to run a good Point

31:00

grants in in their community. So

31:02

basically what we're allowing everyone to

31:04

do is run a Qf rounds

31:06

permissionless li wit without any help

31:08

from us. So. Good point One

31:10

put it was all about fishing for

31:12

you get when Supernovas teaching you to

31:14

Fess. We've now got a community of

31:16

fifty to one hundred round operators that

31:18

are trained to run get point grants

31:21

rounds in in your community and that's

31:23

what we call the program layer. It's

31:25

with social layer people who run understand

31:27

how to run to F rounds in

31:29

in various he Vm based mean these

31:31

and I they are building they are

31:33

building these programs on top of get

31:35

congrats sack with his the application that

31:38

anyone can use to run. A Qf

31:40

round in a retro Pdf rounds and

31:42

then that's all built on Aloe protocol,

31:44

which is it was his sort of

31:46

the the development layer under underneath a

31:48

bit so I'm yeah. I think this

31:50

architecture is quite elegant as it allows

31:52

us to go deep on each of

31:54

the capital allocation tools and build the

31:56

best tool for for that designed space

31:58

but allows us to go. Rod and

32:00

build many different types of application tools into

32:02

the key mean the So that's a little

32:05

bit about the architecture of get Going to

32:07

Punish. Can

32:09

I add? Add lodges to that.

32:11

So busy as I see like

32:14

a particular distribution mechanism is definitely

32:16

missing. Can I bet that and

32:18

have it integrated into that? stat? Yep,

32:22

so I'm If you don't have coding skills,

32:24

you can go to a good point. I

32:26

coast ransacked. click on the get hub, open

32:28

up a new Su, and make a suggestion

32:30

for a capital allocation strategy. Arm.

32:32

If you are a software developer, what

32:34

you can do is you can fork

32:37

Aloe in Grants Doc and you can

32:39

augment the capital strategies and then pr

32:41

it back into grant Sack. So I'm

32:43

what I think is really. One.

32:45

Of the most powerful things about Open Source

32:47

has the ability to accept contributions from from

32:49

all over the place and in my goal

32:51

for get going to point know is of

32:53

I want to do for capital allocation What

32:55

opens up when has on for your see

32:58

twenty tokens and when what I mean by

33:00

that is this When I was a software

33:02

developer who is just entering the space and

33:04

wanted to mess around with something at a

33:06

hackathon for weekend I was just pull your

33:08

see twenty. Solidity. Contract out

33:10

of opens up lens repository and a

33:12

new their well documented and they were

33:14

audited and I could just. Take.

33:17

That money lego your see twenty tokens and

33:19

poll into my app. And in that way

33:21

I could build what my app equally actually

33:23

needed to do. instead of reinventing the wheel

33:26

of your seat twenty for every app that

33:28

I'm at a damn building We want to

33:30

do that for Capo isn't I Imagine a

33:33

future in which anyone in a hackathon oh

33:35

Adam Eve, globe lack of own in the

33:37

future can pull the power of get coin

33:39

grants into their out into their application for

33:42

that weekend and they can instantly have a

33:44

quadratic funding strategy or retroactive public goods funding

33:46

strategy. That they know is documented and

33:48

audited and and and I think that

33:50

what this is we want to build

33:53

the money Legos for capital out a

33:55

sin in on the on the Vm

33:57

based stack and and what that's gonna

33:59

do is. The propel the community

34:01

forward in distributing the capital that

34:03

it is exists in all of

34:05

these different token as treasuries across

34:07

across the space. and so yes,

34:09

setting the selling point for for

34:11

for capital allocation contracts in in

34:13

making those those contracts available to

34:15

any hacker in the space who

34:17

wants to build to after retro

34:19

Pdf are conducting voting or whatever

34:21

it is into their application in

34:23

the future. So that's the final.

34:25

Northstar are not quite there yet

34:28

still working on making the docks.

34:30

Good still. I'm making the contracts really understandable

34:32

but ah but yeah we believe in a

34:34

future in which anyone can take the power

34:36

of get on grants and put into their

34:39

application and that's enabled by this new modular

34:41

architecture of that we presented and get going

34:43

to buy know. She.

34:46

Said that the seats which is Ludhiana

34:48

protocol it. Is. Triggered by

34:50

the good kind token. Tell. Us

34:52

about the sees that you may introduce. Yeah.

34:56

I I I say that right

34:58

now we're really just focus on

35:01

providing is as much value as

35:03

possible. Our protocol is being used

35:05

in dozens. Of places right

35:07

now we think that there could be

35:09

hundreds thousands of dollars that are using

35:11

our protocol and could benefit from his

35:13

capital allocation tools right now. and I

35:16

would right now we are accepting payment

35:18

in feedback. Ah, Because. We

35:20

just want to makes of these tools are adopted

35:22

in helping as many people as possible. There are

35:24

no active plans to turn on the fees, which

35:26

I think. It's really up

35:28

to governance whether that's gonna happen or

35:30

not. And I think keep an eye

35:32

on Gov Doug A Coin.co By odd,

35:35

you know my constraints for actually activating

35:37

the fees, which would be that it

35:39

has to be done in a way

35:41

that is positive. Some with the companies

35:43

that is serves and I think that

35:45

we're still exactly figuring out the past,

35:47

the financial sustainability forget coin and how

35:49

the. How to balance the trade offs

35:51

with without what that would mean for turning

35:54

that on. So I guess that's a long

35:56

way of saying it's up to governance idol

35:58

know, keep an eye and of because. Doug

36:00

Acorn deco. Let's.

36:02

The sentiment about good cone token holders.

36:05

Because. I mean in principle it's and I give you

36:07

look at the market cap it's had of like. Probably.

36:09

On the it would have a hundred million

36:11

or something. so. Into it too. Kind

36:13

of have that kind of float. People probably

36:16

believe that it is. At it'd

36:18

be able to capture some of the value

36:20

that it provides to other community. Site. I.

36:24

Mean I I I I think the

36:26

the the sentiment that I see express

36:29

on Gov Doug decor and our coaches

36:31

were at least in theory people are

36:33

supposed to be expressing their sentiment about

36:35

get coin is. You. Guys

36:37

need to get product adoption. So.

36:40

So basically, good point. Good point. Dow

36:42

launched in Twenty Twenty One and we're

36:44

now. and Twenty Twenty four. It took.

36:47

Two. Years to rewrite the centralized,

36:49

monolithic stock. To. Be decentralized

36:51

and modular and I and I think

36:53

that you know In a space where

36:56

attention is fickle and. Virginity

36:58

mean coins on the order of hours

37:00

or days. I think a lot of

37:02

people forgotten about get coin and you

37:04

know that's fine. We we didn't execute

37:06

and ends you know there's a pretty

37:09

hard reset between one point. Oh and

37:11

to point out, So. I'm yeah

37:13

I I I think the the focus right now

37:15

is is on building tools that are actually useful

37:17

to people and getting those adoption. And.

37:20

Of. You. Know at what

37:22

it is A I think like being

37:24

a leader again in in capital allocation.

37:26

I think like in a lot of

37:28

ways get one one for Know pioneered

37:30

quadratic funding at with the help of

37:32

you know, Obviously we didn't read the

37:34

paper. Glenn metallic in though he wrote

37:36

the paper. but we're pioneering the actual

37:38

practice of using it. And Xom, you

37:40

know the game is teens. There is

37:42

such as quadratic funding anymore. It's retroactive

37:44

public goods funding. There's a bunch of

37:46

different capital allocation tools and in and

37:48

dumb. And the reset from

37:50

centralized and monolithic to decentralize in modular

37:52

has necessitated a different approach in a

37:55

in a new era of leadership. So

37:57

I'm yeah. I think the honest the

37:59

answered your question is that because needs

38:01

to lead again and it needs to

38:03

in it needs to pioneer the space

38:05

during a new era in which the

38:07

game as teens dance and the sentiment

38:10

that I hear that I really want

38:12

to respond to is making a coin

38:14

a market leader again. And and that's.

38:17

That's what you'll see me pushing for. I got

38:19

decoy and Geico. That's

38:21

absolutely set. Sell. Your.

38:25

Recently plot of replied to a

38:27

whole bunch of teens, how did

38:29

you would. Determine.

38:31

Where to the apply to? I mean,

38:33

obviously it's clear that. A easier

38:35

mean that was not the place to

38:37

see heavy were in in in light

38:40

of the fees that yeah how did

38:42

you decide. Where. To me a

38:44

President. Yeah.

38:46

About anyone can take our protocol and deflate wherever

38:48

they want. So er, that's nice thing about being

38:50

for couple and from a summer says that you

38:52

don't have to rely on Kevin a walkie any

38:55

were. You. Know as

38:57

get coins going to deploy to

38:59

any l to that's legitimate and

39:01

once to fund what matters to

39:03

it's it's community. So right now

39:06

we're seeing the most traction on

39:08

optimism and arbitron. Aloe.

39:10

Has also deployed to to cielo

39:13

into zk sink into base. And.

39:16

Or wherever the communities. That.

39:18

Wherever there's money that is gonna be funding

39:20

public goods in funding what matters to these

39:22

communities, I think they will make sure that

39:24

there is an Aloe deployment to those teens.

39:26

So a girl that we're all waiting to

39:29

see we're at where l to they're going

39:31

to seek out. but it's It's pretty cheap

39:33

to deploy the our contacts to a new

39:35

chain in terms of time and gas costs.

39:37

So a we're gonna go to as many

39:39

L to says there are communities that have

39:41

treasuries the want to deploy them. Am

39:45

it makes sodas and. you a

39:47

heavily rely on kind of like their

39:49

feud sir being dow heavy fog it

39:51

quite right because kind of like allocating

39:54

says these kind of like in a.

39:56

Decent. Sized Manner This is very

39:58

much a doll. Mandate. How

40:01

do you see it? The recent evolution of

40:03

dogs? Are you happy with where we all

40:05

right now with dow? So do you think.

40:09

We we we we need to push

40:11

for getting to another place. I

40:15

think dowser. Fascinating design space. I think

40:17

dowser are basically crypto in multiplayer mode.

40:19

What do we do when communities have

40:21

to govern something together? Have to push

40:23

forward a movement together. And. I

40:25

was like. When. Said

40:27

the word organization in in decentralized

40:29

autonomous organization has either networks and

40:32

away In essence a totally different

40:34

way of thinking. And it's going

40:36

to take time for them to evolve the

40:38

corporate form of all for three hundred, four

40:40

hundred years. Something like that. from the East

40:43

India Corporation to what we now know as

40:45

the dollars He corporate you know, unless or

40:47

the equivalent is in Europe. By. A

40:49

I think it's going to take it's

40:51

gonna take decades of evolution for us

40:54

to figure out the final form of

40:56

Dallas and I think that you that

40:58

we can't rush it. I'm I really

41:01

like. I really like mole of towels

41:03

or a like compound bows. I think

41:05

that their vote that no safe is

41:07

just an incredibly simple but powerful tool

41:10

for for helping to me undies work

41:12

together. I'm excited about new primitives like

41:14

hats, protocol and them. You know I

41:17

think we can't force the evolution. I

41:19

think we have to go through the painful

41:21

parts but also the beautiful parts of of

41:23

Dallas happening in your get what liquids trying

41:25

to solve is like a very small. Portion.

41:28

Of the Dalles Doc which is capital

41:30

allocation and and you're right is it

41:32

does sort of depend on on people

41:35

having tokens that they want to deploy

41:37

to. From. Their took a nice

41:39

treasuries to to the outer orbits of their

41:41

to mean these but you know declines. kind

41:43

of a bet on. Be. V I'm

41:45

eating the world and token is a sin Eating

41:47

the world And on top of that I know

41:50

that people are going to one own fund, what

41:52

matters in their communities and and we wanna build

41:54

the best act for for doing that but a

41:56

media gets either would actually a little bit of

41:58

actually reading a book right now how to dow

42:01

which will be published with Penguin or it up

42:03

would Penguin Random House has a publisher. In.

42:06

September October of this year. So

42:08

really excited to explain the design

42:10

space of Dow's to hopefully a

42:12

more mainstream audience coming in the

42:14

fall. And I think it's a

42:16

really fascinating, an exciting design space.

42:20

I. Had no idea about the book but

42:22

I'm going to push on is now.

42:24

So what do you think is the

42:26

single? a thing that should be chainsaw?

42:28

Doubt it would have the most impact.

42:31

right? Now. I'm

42:33

it's it's a hard question to

42:36

answer because. Asking about Dow's

42:38

is is like asking about. It

42:41

it's of is extremely wide aperture. Asking about

42:43

Dallas is like asking about organizations. Are we

42:45

talking about a family? Are we talking about

42:47

a nonprofit? Are we talking about a for

42:49

profit corporation? Are you talking about an angio?

42:51

Like. A it is. It's like to.

42:53

I'd have an aperture to even give a

42:55

useful answer. So sorry.to answer your question. but

42:57

I'm I, the games or bunch of little

42:59

things that need to be bathed better. Yet.

43:02

Look at a specified and so

43:04

in my view the one thing

43:07

that would do a lot. Is

43:09

it were to be solved is kind

43:11

of like the attention bandwidth problem. right?

43:14

Kind of right now. When.

43:16

you se look at the snapshots

43:18

of doubtless often am. it is

43:21

though it's ah and thing said

43:23

shouldn't be voted on. It.

43:25

As like people, basically

43:27

quorums. I'm not mad.

43:29

At. Left and right because people are

43:32

ten of disengage. To. Have an idea

43:34

how to. To. To deal with

43:36

them. The. Bandwidth problem

43:38

for defend it did decisions kind

43:40

of on different scales. What else?

43:44

Yeah. Oh every my response to

43:46

that would be hey what if

43:48

there is that a couple allocation

43:50

tool that respected the voters attention.

43:53

But. Instead of instead of assuming

43:55

that they're spending tens of hours

43:57

every day on on the government's

43:59

forums. So I think that

44:01

like quadratic funding in a way sort

44:03

of is that I'm it. With quadratic

44:06

funding you're You're taking a look at

44:08

all of the grants in a community

44:10

that are doing self within that community

44:12

and loading up your cart once per

44:14

quarter. It takes ten or fifteen minutes

44:16

of feels more like an ecommerce experience

44:18

you check out and then you're done

44:20

once a quarter. And so there's a

44:22

bunch of the government's proposals to really

44:24

spend a lotta time debating back and

44:26

forth. On. In dumb.

44:29

And your by way I'm sorry there is

44:31

so much friction in your Gg nineteen experience.

44:33

I hope the Gg twenty is is more

44:36

or is better for you but you know

44:38

My response to that is we need a

44:40

couple allocation swiss army knife and we'd have

44:42

more tools that respect the be users attention

44:44

the voters attention when when they're allocating capital

44:47

in the south. Yeah. And

44:49

kevin I kind of I went to

44:51

make the that has given to get

44:53

put. It. Through most of the rounds

44:55

I'm a huge fan. I think it's

44:57

soup of it's it's I I just

44:59

wanted. kind of. I was frustrated because.

45:02

I think it's a really important will and they

45:04

want to see it's us will Accept. That

45:06

yeah that of while I I I am

45:08

back a good point. I was this affiliated

45:10

for about a year and a half and

45:12

I think they get clear. was in the

45:14

messy middle between one point own two point know

45:17

I'm but if you. Have. Complaints about

45:19

Gg Twenty? Please tweet Abby! I'm at

45:21

a walkie on twitter and I read

45:23

all the feedback and we take it

45:26

seriously. I'll sometimes even if you don't

45:28

see it and dumb and indo the

45:30

we're working hard to make the user

45:32

experience better of we have made mis

45:35

steps. It is a hard design space

45:37

by it just each. Good.

45:39

Point is deeply protropin with in. By that

45:41

I mean it gets better every quarter of.

45:43

Sometimes it's two steps forward and one sep

45:45

that there was set to subs back and

45:47

once a forward ah you know subtly between

45:49

giggling one point own to point out but

45:52

we're still here. We are so grinding and

45:54

we're going to make easily congress round better

45:56

than the last one. In.

45:58

Has excel and ten. Our

46:00

audience: how to get involved with good

46:02

kind governance if they wanted to, so

46:04

how to contribute amp, how to And

46:06

I know there's an approval process for

46:08

projects to penn of the white listed

46:10

and so on. Do rely heavily on

46:12

volunteers with at those people kind of

46:14

if this resonates with people with. Where.

46:17

Do they had. Yep!

46:20

So are you can go to Get Coins

46:22

auto which is where you can find all

46:24

the other good stuff. I if you check

46:26

out impacts.your coins are code that is the

46:28

ticker for the amount of impacts a good

46:30

Causes had from the beginning of of of

46:32

the coin sentence in the space I've always

46:34

been very focus on what's actually so the

46:37

numbers, the tangible impact like a coin is

46:39

how how is having and I want to

46:41

stand out from all the projects that were

46:43

promising the world but not actually delivering much

46:45

and on impact aka Coin Dakota is where

46:47

you can go to see our latest impact

46:49

numbers. As of as of a

46:51

Twenty Twenty Four March Twenty Twenty Four,

46:54

we've done Sixty million dollars worth of

46:56

funding to public goods in the A

46:58

Theory and ecosystem. You. Can go

47:00

to get point I posed as

47:02

discord if you wanna join our

47:05

discord and get involved. Gov Doug

47:07

A Coin.co is v governance forum

47:09

for for decorum. In.

47:11

Some you can also find us on

47:13

Twitter at twitter.com Sinus get coin yeah

47:15

those are the links that out it

47:17

that I would expect they people could

47:19

go and check out. And April Twenty

47:21

Twenty four is when Congress Twenty is

47:24

happening so set a reminder remember to

47:26

check out in your good point cart

47:28

and or semi sweet after you do

47:30

it in let me know if his

47:32

socks than Tommy thought. If you gotta

47:34

was great then tell he was great

47:36

on twitter.com Such a walkie. Fritter.

47:39

Again, thank you so much rubbing the on the

47:41

Epicenter podcasts. I really enjoyed the conversation. Things.

47:44

To thank you for coming on Kevin! A

47:46

and of evil it to around twenty. Thank.

47:51

You for joining us on this week's episode. We.

47:53

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