0:17

Hey there friends! Welcome to another exciting edition

0:20

of equipped with Chris Brooks! I'm so

0:22

thrilled that you've joined us today.

0:24

Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat

0:26

belt. We're going to navigate through the contours

0:28

of culture, as always, with

0:30

the lens of the biblical worldview on. But

0:32

before we do that, let me remind

0:35

you, this is the day that the Lord has

0:37

made. He is giving it as he gives,

0:39

so that you and I can rejoice

0:41

and be glad in it. So let's do just

0:43

that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.

0:46

Let's rejoice in the Lord always.

0:48

And again I say,

0:50

rejoice. Today I want to talk

0:52

about the power of the gospel

0:55

to unite our hearts in

0:57

spite of our cultural differences,

1:00

in spite of the fact that our churches

1:02

are full of personalities

1:04

and people who have viewpoints on

1:07

a whole array of social issues that might

1:09

be different than ours. But what unites

1:12

the church is the question of

1:14

the day. What is at the heart

1:16

of our unity? I pray

1:18

that your answer to that would be Christ,

1:21

that Christ is the center of the church.

1:23

But increasingly, for

1:25

most of our churches in particular,

1:27

since 2020, it feels like

1:30

everyone has adopted a Christ

1:32

and approach Christ

1:35

and gun control, Christ

1:37

and the pro-life message,

1:39

Christ and immigration reform.

1:41

You name the policy,

1:44

and it feels as if our litmus

1:46

test for unity,

1:48

or even what it means to be a Christian,

1:51

is Christ. And

1:54

how much of this is biblical?

1:56

How much of this is actually

1:58

an affront to the gospel is something that

2:00

we need to take seriously, in particular

2:03

in 2024, where I think we have

2:05

an opportunity as believers

2:07

to demonstrate lessons learned

2:10

from the past four years

2:12

as we reflect on what they've brought

2:14

us, and we think deeply on what

2:16

it means to honor Christ

2:19

in this present age. I'm

2:21

so grateful for a book that I highly commend

2:23

to you that I think is going

2:25

to really help our churches

2:28

experience the type of Christ centered unity

2:30

that the New Testament commends us

2:33

to. It's entitled Love the

2:35

ones who Drive You crazy.

2:37

Have you ever felt like that? Now, it could

2:39

be that this is a title for a family

2:41

book, and I think that that's appropriate

2:43

because that's what the church is. It's

2:45

a spiritual family. This

2:47

book has eight truths for pursuing unity

2:50

in the church. Janie Jamie

2:52

Dunlop is the author. Jamie

2:55

serves as the associate pastor at

2:57

Capitol Hill Baptist Church. He

2:59

is also the co-author, with Mark Dever,

3:01

of the book The Compelling Community.

3:04

He and his wife, Joan,

3:06

have three children

3:08

that are just south of perfect, and

3:11

they live in the D.C. area. Hey,

3:13

Jamie. How are you, brother?

3:15

I'm doing well. It's so good to be here with

3:17

you, Chris.

3:18

Well, I'm grateful that you wrote the book

3:20

that I think many of us have hoped

3:22

would be written. And I mean that

3:25

because I have asked our

3:27

church on several occasions,

3:29

the leaders of our church, what have

3:31

we learned over the past four

3:33

years? What have we learned from 2020?

3:35

As we reflect back, I think that's

3:37

a mature thing to do, is to look back and

3:40

to say, hey, this is where I think

3:42

we aligned ourselves well

3:44

with the gospel. This is where I think

3:46

we reflected Christ to,

3:49

to one another, well, and to our

3:51

community. And then these are areas

3:53

where I feel like we fell short. And I think

3:55

we need to be honest about that.

3:58

Your book is an honest

4:00

reflection on that, while commending us towards

4:02

loving one another, but I really do

4:04

want to start with the title.

4:07

Who picked the title? Where did it come from and

4:09

what's the story behind it?

4:12

Uh, I think the title, by listening very

4:14

carefully to myself when

4:17

our church was struggling

4:19

through all the different differences and disagreements

4:22

we had. And, I mean, you picked the chronology.

4:24

Well, it really was 2020,

4:26

2021 when,

4:29

uh, pastoring a diverse flock

4:31

was harder than usual. And

4:33

I think I was driving people in

4:36

my church crazy, and they were driving me

4:38

crazy. And

4:40

I had some very

4:42

hard conversations with brothers and sisters

4:44

who disagreed with me in some very significant

4:47

ways. And yet I

4:49

was so struck by their love

4:51

and charity toward me, despite those disagreements

4:54

and kind of the.

4:57

The moment came when I realized,

5:00

you know, gosh, this is hard.

5:02

But maybe this is what it looks

5:04

like to be united around Christ alone

5:06

rather than, as you put it, Christ. And,

5:09

and, uh, you

5:11

know, all those commands that Paul gives us in Romans

5:13

12 on how we should love. I realize

5:16

those are especially important

5:18

when you feel like people

5:21

are driving you crazy and likewise,

5:23

you to them.

5:24

You know, when you wrote this

5:27

book, obviously you get a chance

5:29

to reflect a little bit for people

5:31

who want to know what qualifies

5:34

Jamie to write this book. Man,

5:36

I think about, uh,

5:38

the waves or the streams

5:40

that all came together in 2020

5:43

that played itself out in your church.

5:45

Now, I think all of our churches felt it,

5:47

but you guys felt it

5:49

pretty intensely. Talk about what

5:51

it means to worship

5:53

Christ at Capitol Hill

5:56

and how that really,

5:59

um, qualifies you in many ways

6:02

to write this book.

6:05

Yeah. I mean, I hope

6:07

I'm qualified, mainly because I just read

6:09

the Bible and try to do

6:12

what it says. Um,

6:14

and, uh, I

6:16

do think the context of my church

6:18

helps me to maybe think

6:21

extra hard about how to apply scripture.

6:23

So my church is just behind

6:25

the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C. it's

6:27

about 150 years old, uh, six

6:29

blocks from the US Capitol building. Uh,

6:32

people often say, what's it like being in church

6:34

with all the politicians? And I say, oh, that's

6:37

we're like the church of the people who open

6:39

the politicians mail. So we're a young church.

6:42

Uh, we are, and as

6:44

you can imagine, a very politically

6:46

active church. Um,

6:49

and if I think about

6:51

the challenges that we faced in,

6:53

you know, the that time 20, 2021,

6:56

we obviously had a lot

6:58

of very opinionated people who disagreed

7:00

about how we should respond to the pandemic

7:02

and how we should respond to the government's restrictions

7:05

concerning the pandemic, and

7:08

how should we respond to,

7:10

uh, the, uh, societal

7:13

conversation, to put it mildly,

7:15

we were having after the murder of George Floyd,

7:18

uh, the protests in DC,

7:21

uh, some of which turned into riots, were

7:23

largely here in our neighborhood. Um,

7:25

we had, as you can imagine, disagreements

7:27

about, uh, the election

7:30

that followed, uh, our

7:32

response to the election. Um,

7:35

and yet the thing I was

7:37

one of the, one of the reasons why I wrote the book

7:39

is I just thought I have learned so much to the congregation

7:42

because lots of disagreements,

7:45

lots of hard conversations,

7:47

lots of big emotions.

7:49

And yet, by and large, this congregation

7:52

stayed and it continued loving each

7:54

other. And I see friendships today

7:56

between people who are on opposite

7:58

sides of issues that did not exist before

8:01

all this, which I think is just

8:03

that's what it looks like when the Holy Spirit does his

8:05

work.

8:05

You know, you said something and

8:07

I want to paraphrase it, but I really

8:10

want you to unpack it, that

8:12

in many ways, uh, the

8:14

love of Christ is shown greatest

8:17

not in areas where we agree, but

8:20

in conflict. What do you mean by

8:22

that?

8:24

Yeah. I think the verse I had in mind

8:26

when I wrote that in the book is in Romans 15,

8:29

where Paul has just spent a long section

8:31

talking to Jews and Gentiles in

8:33

the Roman churches, who are as

8:35

different as anything you've ever seen.

8:38

Uh, and encouraging

8:40

them how to love each

8:42

other because they're united in Christ

8:44

and Christ is a stronger,

8:47

bigger, better than all the things

8:49

that might divide us. And

8:51

his closing prayer, I think,

8:54

is, is, uh, a model

8:56

for us to try to

8:58

get around. He says, may the God of endurance

9:01

and encouragement. So

9:03

this is not easy. God of endurance and encouragement

9:06

grant you to live in such harmony

9:08

with one another in accord with Christ

9:10

Jesus, that together you may with one voice

9:12

glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9:15

Therefore welcome one another, as Christ has

9:17

welcomed you to the glory of God. What

9:19

he's saying there is, look, you

9:22

guys come from opposite ends of the cultural

9:24

spectrum, opposite ends of the political spectrum.

9:27

Uh, there's even theological reasons in the past

9:29

why they had been kept separate. And

9:32

yet, uh, he's saying, if you

9:34

can show that being in accord with

9:36

Christ Jesus is all that you need to live in harmony

9:38

with one another, God gets glory.

9:41

And I think what we see here is he

9:43

gets greater glory than if they agreed on

9:45

everything to begin with. If everybody

9:47

agrees on everything and love

9:50

is never a challenge, I don't think the

9:52

gospel really gets tested. Uh,

9:54

the the power of the gospel

9:56

is not tested. And yet, when

9:58

people who share very little in common

10:00

other than Christ show that Christ is

10:02

all they need to be family,

10:04

as you put it earlier. Well,

10:07

that's that's astonishing.

10:09

It's so astonishing. Ephesians three,

10:12

uh, where Paul also talks about unity between Jew

10:14

and Gentile. It says even the spiritual

10:17

forces above stare in wonder

10:19

at the wisdom of God displayed in

10:21

the Ephesian church. Because of the unity

10:23

of Jew and Gentile. Mhm. Uh, that's

10:25

that's how significant it is. We're

10:28

not the only audience. Uh,

10:30

even the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

10:32

above are amazed

10:35

at who God is because of what happens in the

10:37

church.

10:38

Is it fair to say that the

10:40

relationship between this book

10:42

and the compelling community is

10:44

that you want to kind of put some practical

10:47

handlebars, if you will, on how

10:49

to live this out?

10:52

Exactly. So I

10:54

wrote that with Mark Dever, uh,

10:56

quite a few years ago now. And I

10:58

have had many people who've said, look,

11:01

this picture you

11:03

describe of, uh,

11:05

United in Christ alone is very

11:08

compelling. Can you tell us how to do

11:10

it? And I

11:12

honestly was a

11:14

little, uh, uncertain

11:17

as to whether I could provide that

11:19

until I watched

11:21

my church and many of the churches around us

11:23

go through this difficult, divisive time.

11:26

And I just kept mapping

11:28

what I was seeing,

11:31

uh, in terms of the good I was seeing

11:33

under Paul's advice in Romans 12

11:35

and 14 and 15, I thought, okay, here's

11:38

here's our how to guide in the

11:40

scriptures if you want to look anywhere

11:43

for how to love people who are very different

11:45

from you, where you don't see eye to eye,

11:47

and much other than the glory of Jesus, I

11:49

think the place I'm going to point you is these three chapters

11:51

in the book of Romans. And so that's that's

11:53

where the book came from, is it's a how to

11:56

guide, because I think that's what Paul gives us.

11:59

If mask wearing has risen

12:01

to the level of the virgin birth in your church,

12:03

this book is for you. If if

12:06

marching is on the same level

12:08

as sola scriptura in your

12:10

church, this book is for you.

12:12

If Worship styles is,

12:15

uh, maybe more, uh,

12:17

of a conversation,

12:19

uh, than, um, the

12:22

centerpiece of the deity of Christ

12:24

to our lives, then this book

12:26

is for you. I think this book is for all of

12:28

us, and it feels like

12:31

your major message

12:33

here is not to try to,

12:37

um, litigate, which

12:39

is right, which is wrong in a whole litany

12:41

of culture wars and,

12:43

and issues. But to be able to

12:45

to call us to loving one

12:47

another through

12:50

our intensely held,

12:53

uh, convictions around, around

12:55

these things. And maybe you

12:57

just feel like I don't even know if this is

12:59

possible. Here's what I want to do. We're going to

13:01

take our first break of the day, but when we come back,

13:03

I want us to begin to dive into

13:06

these eight truths for

13:08

pursuing unity in your

13:10

church. And I think about the

13:12

book that, um, that

13:15

Jamie bases his,

13:17

uh, his book. Love the ones

13:20

who drive you crazy off of the book

13:22

of Romans from the New Testament.

13:25

Christ could have easily told

13:27

his apostles, hey, you stay

13:29

here in Jerusalem around those

13:31

who culturally eat

13:33

like you, talk like you,

13:35

dress like you. But he

13:37

sends them out into a culturally

13:39

diverse world and

13:41

tells them to love one another, even

13:43

as I have loved you.

13:46

What does that look like? I

13:48

would encourage you pick up a copy of

13:50

Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy

13:52

and stick and Stay. There's so much more

13:54

to learn. Next up on Equipped with Chris Brooks.

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If you want to read the Bible for all it's

14:03

worth, it's helpful to have an experienced

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guide with you. Bible teacher Doctor

14:08

Jim Coakley has written a book that

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will bring your Scripture study to life.

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It's called 14 Fresh Ways to

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Enjoy the Bible, and I highly recommend

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it for you. If you want to understand

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and apply the Bible for yourself,

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get your copy with a gift of any amount.

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To equip, simply call 888644

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4144 or visit

14:28

Equip radio.org. Welcome

14:35

back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Janey

14:38

Jamie Dunlop is my guest today.

14:40

He serves as associate pastor

14:42

of Capitol Hill Baptist Church over there with

14:44

a good friend, Mark Dever. And,

14:46

uh, he's written a one of the

14:48

latest books from Nine Marks. It's

14:50

entitled Love the Ones

14:53

Who Drive You Crazy. And

14:55

no, that's not talking about your spouse, but

14:57

it could include them not

14:59

talking about your children. But certainly

15:02

it should include them. But talking

15:04

about our local church and reflecting

15:06

the unity of Christ. Um,

15:08

I want to talk to you a little bit,

15:11

uh, before we get into these, these

15:13

eight about

15:15

where our convictions

15:18

are really coming from, because

15:20

in some ways, as I was reading through your

15:22

book, here's what I struggled with.

15:25

Um, I certainly agree with the premise,

15:27

Jamie, that,

15:30

uh, anything that we add to Christ

15:32

is an affront to the cross, and

15:35

it communicates that the gospel

15:38

is insufficient to the finish work

15:40

of Jesus is insufficient. When we

15:42

try to add on to the

15:44

cross anything,

15:47

uh, that we would consider to be,

15:50

uh, part and parcel with our, our, our

15:52

current cultural discourse. However,

15:55

what I think most people are communicating

15:58

is. The

16:00

the sanctification aspect

16:03

of of our salvation.

16:05

Like what is the gospel look

16:07

like lived out. So for

16:09

example, um, I'm

16:11

I'm pro-life. I believe

16:13

in the sanctity of life. Um,

16:16

and I'm passionate about

16:18

that right now.

16:20

For me, the question

16:22

of the sanctity of life is

16:24

not me trying to add to the gospel

16:28

as much as I'm saying,

16:30

what is this look like lived

16:32

out? And

16:35

and for me, obviously it

16:37

lands at that conclusion. Now,

16:39

I do recognize there's a lot of policy debates

16:41

around this, but I guess my

16:43

question to you is, do you

16:45

think when most people are talking about

16:47

marching or mask wearing

16:49

or whether or not we should submit

16:51

to a governmental

16:54

mandate about any litany of things

16:56

that what they're really thinking

16:58

through is,

17:00

what does the Christian faith

17:02

look like? If we take the

17:05

gospel seriously and apply it to our

17:07

lives?

17:10

They are generally, uh,

17:12

if they're faithful Christians, they are.

17:15

And the challenge is,

17:17

uh, there's a spectrum

17:19

where you go from clear

17:22

gospel issues that a church

17:24

has to agree on. And if you don't,

17:26

you fundamentally have two different

17:28

religions. Uh, so if

17:31

you know, a church disagrees on whether the gospel

17:33

is about, uh, salvation of

17:35

our souls or about health, wealth and happiness,

17:38

well, those are two different religions. And if a church

17:40

can't unite despite that difference,

17:43

and you move all the way over

17:45

to say you mentioned musical preference,

17:47

surely we can have a church together.

17:49

Even if I like jazz music and you like classical

17:52

music, that. No. No

17:54

reason that should divide us. Yes.

17:56

Where do you where do you leave

17:58

off from,

18:00

uh, necessary implications

18:03

of the gospel, uh,

18:05

to things that more border on

18:07

preferences or, uh,

18:09

implications that are implications

18:11

and therefore were far enough from

18:14

the core tenets of the gospel. We

18:16

should be able to have a church together.

18:19

The book does not answer that question.

18:21

Uh, that could be an entirely different

18:24

book. And that's a hard question to answer.

18:26

And frankly, each church is going to answer it in a different

18:28

way. Uh, you know,

18:30

if I think about the confessing churches

18:33

in Nazi Germany in the 1930s,

18:35

you kind of go from the beginning of the decade

18:37

to the end of the decade. At some point in time, you've

18:40

got to realize that you can't be Christian,

18:42

align yourself with the Nazis. But different churches

18:44

are coming to that conclusion at different times because

18:46

of different things. And I think that's inevitable.

18:50

Uh, so I don't assume that every church

18:52

is going to have the same answer to the same question.

18:55

This book is very much

18:57

for those things where you do

18:59

have confidence. Surely

19:01

we can be a church together despite this difference

19:04

or that difference or that difference. But gosh,

19:06

is it hard to do that. This

19:08

book is not trying to answer the question,

19:11

what can we we can

19:13

we be united on?

19:16

Uh, but how

19:18

do we do that? Much more of a how book than a what

19:20

book.

19:21

Yeah. You have some powerful quotes throughout

19:23

the book. Uh, and one of

19:25

which I was trying to look for the exact

19:27

page, and I should have underlined it.

19:30

Uh, but, um, comes from Oz

19:32

Guinness, uh, where he

19:34

just basically says it's a short

19:36

step from us

19:39

saying that this

19:41

is what the Christian life looks like

19:43

to our preference

19:45

being the only way to

19:47

live the Christian life to

19:50

to ultimately getting to the point where

19:52

the only right way to live

19:54

the Christian life is my way

19:57

of living the Christian life, and that we need

19:59

to guard our hearts against that.

20:01

Yeah, I could read it to you, he says. There's only one

20:04

short, easy step from this is the Christian way

20:06

to there is only one Christian way to anything

20:09

different from this is not Christian to all

20:11

this is different from my way. Are not Christians?

20:14

Uh, yeah, that's that's an easy slope.

20:16

But but it's not like we need to say, well, therefore

20:19

we focus on unity no matter

20:21

the consequences. Sometimes Christians need

20:23

to be dividers. Christ said he

20:25

came with a sword.

20:28

Uh, sometimes we need to be the one who's,

20:31

you know, who's willing to say,

20:33

well, I'll give you an example. You know, in

20:35

my own church, 1940s, Agnes

20:37

Schenkel, uh, led

20:40

a revolt against the leaders of the church because

20:43

the man they wanted to hire as pastor did not

20:45

believe the Bible was true. And I would

20:47

not be here in this church if Agnes had not

20:49

had the courage to stand up and say,

20:51

no, I don't have a

20:53

seminary degree, but I know my Bible,

20:55

and that man does not believe it. Sometimes

20:58

we need to do that. The challenge

21:00

is, if we do that when it's not necessary.

21:02

Now we are,

21:04

uh, creating factions, which

21:07

Paul says in Galatians six are like

21:09

sorcery and idolatry and other terrible

21:11

sins. So, yes, you know,

21:13

you've got to be very careful.

21:16

Um, one of the things that

21:18

became true about,

21:21

uh, a true reality for

21:23

most pastors over the last

21:25

several years is that

21:27

everyone felt that we should

21:30

more passionately agree

21:33

with not only their perspective, but

21:35

their approach. And if we didn't,

21:37

with the same veracity, uh,

21:39

agree with their passion and their approach,

21:42

then we were somehow

21:44

cowardly and weak. I love this quote

21:46

that you give from Pastor Kevin DeYoung.

21:49

You say he states

21:51

this danger. Well, it may be

21:53

that your pastor is cowardly

21:56

trying to make everyone happy.

21:58

Uh, that won't work, but it may

22:00

be that he is trying to wisely

22:02

shepherd a divisive flock

22:05

in a way that helps the sheep to

22:07

focus on Christ and Him

22:09

crucified. I love

22:11

that you said that. How do we discern the difference?

22:14

You asked your elders and your pastors.

22:16

You need to ask them,

22:19

what is this church,

22:21

uh, united around and where

22:23

which differences are legitimate?

22:26

Uh, you know, so if someone came to me and they

22:29

said, look, you know, can you

22:31

be in favor of abortion and be

22:33

a member of this church? I would say no,

22:36

uh, because abortion is murder. And the Bible

22:38

is very clear, uh, that,

22:41

uh, that murder is wrong. If,

22:44

on the other hand, you came to me and you said, now here's

22:46

a legislative agenda to try to,

22:49

uh, combat abortion in this country

22:51

since abortion is wrong. Surely

22:54

that is the way that all of the members of

22:56

this church should go. Well, now we

22:58

need to disagree because there could be

23:00

multiple different legislative paths to achieve

23:02

that moral goal. And a church can't

23:05

be united around just one of those paths.

23:08

Uh, so the short answer to your question is

23:11

that's why you have pastors,

23:13

uh, they are having to look across this flock

23:15

and understand of all the disagreements

23:18

that we have, which of these are gospel issues and which aren't,

23:20

and pray for them to have wisdom, because

23:22

sometimes those decisions are very hard

23:24

to make.

23:25

I think you also do

23:28

a great job highlighting,

23:30

uh, the fact that a big part

23:32

of the challenge here is how we go about looking

23:35

for, for churches that when

23:37

we're looking for a church, oftentimes

23:39

it's the same type of framework

23:41

we use when we're looking for a car. Explain

23:43

what you mean by that.

23:45

Yeah. Uh, was

23:48

it came up because I was shopping

23:50

for a car, and I just realized

23:52

how similar my goals were to how so many

23:54

people think about church. Like, does it have the options

23:57

I want? Does it have the programs I want?

23:59

Is it going to give me any trouble? Is it going to

24:01

make me look good? I hope I wasn't thinking about that,

24:03

but I probably was. Uh,

24:05

the challenge is you shop

24:08

like a car for a car like a consumer, like

24:10

you should. But when you shop for

24:12

a church, like a consumer, the

24:14

focus is on me. And

24:16

that's not where the new Testament puts the focus.

24:18

The focus of the New Testament when it comes to

24:20

church, is on the glory of the Lord

24:22

and the way that we can serve others.

24:25

Uh, not the way we can be fulfilled or get

24:27

the things we want. And that's particularly

24:29

challenging. You think about this topic because if

24:32

you have come to your church, because you're

24:34

a consumer and you're trying to fill your own spiritual

24:36

shopping basket, uh,

24:39

there is nothing consumer friendly

24:42

about churches full of people who

24:44

disagree and are different

24:46

and get on each other's nerves because they

24:48

are united around Christ alone and not all the Christ

24:51

and things, as you put it.

24:53

All right, let's just ask the question, the

24:55

obvious question. This is where we dive into

24:57

the heart of the book. Why did God

25:00

put difficult people in

25:02

my church?

25:06

Yeah. He put difficult people in your church

25:08

because easy love really shows off gospel

25:10

power. Uh, Jesus

25:13

says that if we love even our

25:15

enemies, that's what makes

25:17

us sons of the Most High. That's what gives

25:19

us reward in heaven, he says, because

25:22

that is what

25:24

shows the gospel

25:26

is more powerful

25:28

than all the other forces shaping

25:30

our lives. Uh, you

25:33

know, God put difficult people in the church so

25:35

that you could love them because

25:38

they're your siblings in Christ. Wow.

25:41

What do you do if you don't want to love them?

25:43

And wouldn't the church just be

25:45

better off without them? We're

25:47

going to talk about that and so much more. I

25:49

can't commend this book to you enough. Love

25:51

the ones who drive you crazy. Jamie

25:54

Dunlop, go to our website, equip

25:56

radio.org. You can

25:58

find out ordering information

26:01

there and more about the nine marks

26:03

movement as well. Can't wait

26:05

to be back on the other side.

26:06

Of this break. Next up on equip.

26:14

Hey there friends, Chris Brooks, here we are,

26:17

just about a day away

26:19

from our final opportunity

26:22

to end this month. Uh, fiscally

26:24

strong, as you guys know who

26:26

follow the program, we want to have two

26:28

testimonies. One of

26:30

spiritual fidelity and impact,

26:33

as well as the second,

26:35

which is good financial stewardship.

26:37

I think both reflect

26:40

the grace of Christ. And I want to encourage

26:42

you to be a partner with

26:44

us in this. Uh, we are not

26:46

underwritten by any government grant.

26:49

We're not underwritten by any corporate

26:51

funding. And I'm grateful for that because

26:53

it allows us to be beholden to

26:55

Scripture and Scripture alone. But if

26:57

we're going to be able to speak to

26:59

truth and love to the critical

27:01

issues of our day, it's going to be

27:03

because friends like you

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support the program. So can you

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give a gift? Today we need

27:10

about five friends who can stand with us

27:12

with a gift of, uh, $100

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or more if you've been

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blessed through the program, if it's been an encouragement

27:19

to you, can you consider being one

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of those five friends? The phone number

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to give is 888644

27:27

4144. That's

27:30

888644 4144.

27:33

It's also easier, and I think even more

27:36

convenient to go online and equip

27:38

radio.org that's equip

27:40

radio.org. Today we're

27:42

talking about unity in our local

27:44

churches. It's being tested

27:46

in many ways now more

27:48

than it has been in in

27:51

several generations, certainly

27:53

several decades. Uh, Jamie

27:56

Dunlop, who's an assistant

27:58

or associate pastor at Capitol

28:00

Hill Baptist Church, has written a great book.

28:02

Love the ones who drive you crazy,

28:05

Jamie, I'm careful not to say

28:07

that this is the most divisive

28:09

time in American history, because

28:11

the Civil War happened in this country.

28:14

I mean, we've known intense times,

28:16

but certainly statistically we

28:18

can, with great confidence,

28:21

say this is the most divisive

28:23

time in a generation or two. Um.

28:27

Yeah. Which means that this is a time

28:29

when the gospel has unique opportunity to shine.

28:32

Yeah, yeah. And, uh, when

28:34

when the world is dividing

28:36

and we show that Jesus

28:39

can hold us together, that that says

28:41

something.

28:42

Let's talk about when you don't want

28:44

to, to love them. And I don't I

28:46

don't know if there has,

28:49

um, uh, ever

28:51

been, um, a time

28:53

where I have sensed that more

28:55

intensely, that somehow

28:58

to love those who,

29:00

um, I disagree with is

29:02

um, is compromise to

29:04

many. But that seems to be

29:07

the false equation that we're

29:09

often presented with that to love them

29:11

is is equivalent to compromise.

29:14

Let's go back to the Paul's letter

29:16

to the Romans. How do we

29:19

respond to this

29:21

constant cultural urging

29:24

of our time to not love

29:26

those that we disagree with?

29:29

Yeah, well, I mean, we

29:31

begin with Jesus command to love

29:34

our neighbors as ourselves. Uh,

29:36

and his command to love even

29:38

our enemies. Uh, love

29:41

is not optional for the Christian. We love

29:43

everyone. Uh,

29:45

as as seems appropriate, given

29:47

the circumstances. Uh,

29:50

but I think the challenge then becomes. Okay, let's

29:52

say there's someone in your church where you

29:54

you honestly could say you despise

29:56

what they believe. Are you honestly say they

29:58

just make life miserable for you,

30:00

and you think, okay, I'm supposed to love

30:03

them? Fine. I'll

30:05

do it. And the

30:07

danger there is that

30:09

your love there says a lot

30:12

more about your own moral strength than

30:14

it does about the power of the gospel.

30:16

Because you just said, I'm going to kind of, you

30:18

know, come hell or high water, do it

30:20

because Jesus says, which is a wonderful

30:22

thing. But I find it very

30:24

significant that when Paul

30:27

in Romans 12 one is speaking

30:29

to these churches

30:31

of Jew and Gentile, not a Jewish

30:34

church and a Gentile church, but churches that have both.

30:37

He says, I appeal to you, brothers, by

30:39

the mercies of God, to present

30:41

your bodies as a living sacrifice. Not

30:43

not many sacrifices,

30:45

not to one Jewish, one Gentile.

30:48

Present your bodies as a living sacrifice.

30:50

How do you do that? By the

30:52

mercies of God. And this

30:54

whole thing becomes Christian

30:56

only if is first. John

30:58

four says, we love because he first loved

31:00

us. Uh, the I

31:03

need to have love that is powered by

31:05

the love I've received from God,

31:07

not power by my own moral virtue.

31:10

I picked up several

31:12

slogans from your book. One of the slogans

31:14

I picked up is this Christ

31:16

is better than comfort. Mhm.

31:19

Um, that seems to be

31:21

one of the themes throughout.

31:24

Um, how does that

31:26

maybe rub against

31:28

what is the ethos of

31:30

modern day evangelicalism?

31:33

Yeah. You mentioned earlier the consumerism

31:35

that so pervades modern

31:37

day evangelicalism, where I go

31:39

to church, frankly, because that's

31:41

where I find comfort. Like,

31:44

this is a church where I fit in. This

31:46

is a church where I can make friends easily.

31:48

There's nothing wrong with friends. There's nothing wrong with

31:51

fitting in. But

31:53

we need to remember that Christ is worth more than

31:55

comfort. If the New Testament churches were about

31:57

comfort, they would not have been Jew, Gentile

31:59

and Hebrew, Hellenist and rich and

32:01

poor and slave and free. That's

32:04

not comfortable. Uh,

32:07

I whenever I tell,

32:09

um, whenever I teach our new members class,

32:11

I bring up the example of Margaret

32:13

Roy. You know, my church was an all

32:15

white church for 100 years, almost.

32:18

And Margaret was the first,

32:20

uh, African-American person

32:22

who joined our church. She was also the first

32:24

African American woman who was the principal of a DC

32:27

school. She was kind of a trailblazer.

32:29

And, uh, my old roommate,

32:31

uh, did an interview with her just before she

32:34

died. And just listen to that interview. You

32:36

realize this is a very

32:38

difficult place for her to be. And

32:40

yet, uh, she

32:42

felt this was the place she could worship Christ.

32:45

And Christ is worth more than comfort.

32:47

And so that's why she was here.

32:50

And I tell that example

32:52

for those in my church who are here, who don't

32:54

fit in to commend their faith

32:57

and to say, you have maybe

33:00

with great hesitation walked into

33:02

this church. And for whatever

33:04

reason, there's not a lot of people like

33:06

you, and you've made a gamble that Christ

33:08

is worth more than comfort. And he is.

33:11

And you will find blessing as you

33:13

do that. But I also share

33:15

it for all those who are in

33:17

my church, who do fit in, who are like

33:19

everybody else. And I just tell them you're in a dangerous

33:21

place because you

33:23

could continue acting according to your old

33:25

nature and do what makes you feel

33:28

comfortable, and be with the people

33:30

who are comfortable for you

33:32

and never actually put the gospel

33:35

to test in your life.

33:37

And that's a spiritually precarious place

33:39

to be. We all need the faith of someone

33:41

like Margaret, whether or not we fit in,

33:43

because we all need to act as if Christ

33:46

is worth more than comfort. That's what he's called us to,

33:48

and that is our path to

33:50

real joy as Christians.

33:52

The book is entitled Love the Ones

33:54

Who Drive You Crazy. We've all been

33:56

there before, and this

33:58

is what makes the local church such a beautiful

34:01

thing. And maybe after reading

34:03

Jamie's book, you walk away with a different

34:05

goal that I don't want to just find

34:07

a church that I'm comfortable at. I want to

34:10

find a church that I can,

34:12

um, love well

34:15

and thereby show

34:17

forth the glory of Christ

34:19

in our ability to love one another,

34:21

even when it's difficult and

34:23

uncomfortable. I love that story

34:26

that you just gave. I want to talk about

34:28

chapter six of your book. How

34:30

can I really forgive those people?

34:33

You talk about divine justice and how

34:35

it empowers for forgiveness. But I'm

34:37

going to read these words from Romans.

34:39

Chapter 12 says simply

34:41

this repay no one evil for evil,

34:44

but give thought to do what is honorable

34:46

in the sight of all, if possible,

34:48

so far as it depends on you.

34:51

Live peaceably with all men,

34:53

beloved. Never avenge yourself

34:56

yourselves rather. But

34:58

leave, but leave it to

35:00

the wrath of God. Uh,

35:02

for it is written, vengeance

35:04

is mine. I will repay,

35:07

says the Lord. You

35:09

know, there's so many questions I have about

35:11

this, but talk about the connection between

35:14

divine justice and full forgiveness.

35:17

Mhm.

35:18

Yeah. Here

35:21

in the Romans 12 that Paul just kind of

35:23

double clicking on Luke chapter six,

35:25

where Jesus tells us to love our enemies. Um,

35:28

and one thing Jesus

35:30

talks about there is to forgive. Uh,

35:33

and I think what Paul is doing is he's kind

35:35

of given us the theological

35:37

underpinnings behind

35:40

that statement to love your enemies,

35:43

to forgive them. And

35:45

the theological statement is that

35:47

God will secure

35:49

justice. Vengeance is mine.

35:51

I will repay, saith the Lord. And

35:54

I think very often in

35:56

the evangelical universe, we have

35:58

a half

36:00

hearted idea of forgiveness,

36:02

which is not fully biblical, and

36:04

it's not fully biblical, because it has

36:06

not really grappled with justice.

36:09

It's, um, you

36:11

say. Don't worry

36:14

about it. It wasn't a big deal.

36:16

When you say those things, you're essentially

36:19

saying there wasn't any significant

36:21

wrong committed. So I can forgive you, but

36:23

sometimes significant

36:25

wrong was committed. And

36:28

we are not prepared to forgive,

36:31

as the Bible calls us to forgive. You

36:33

recall what Jesus said in Luke six. He said,

36:35

if your enemy strikes you on the cheek, turn the other

36:37

also. He's

36:40

he's not saying pretend like no wrong

36:42

was done. That would be just walk away. He's

36:45

not saying strike back,

36:47

which is sometimes what our proclivity is to

36:49

do. He says, give to them the

36:52

opposite of what they deserve.

36:54

The only way you can forgive

36:56

that way is if you really

36:58

entrust justice to God.

37:01

Uh, forgiveness is not just. It's not

37:04

pushing justice aside. It

37:06

is giving some of the opposite of what justice

37:08

deserves to say. Look,

37:11

I'm going to help you rebuild what was lost.

37:13

As if it was my own fault. That's what forgiveness

37:15

does. And the reason

37:17

why we struggled to forgive in his

37:20

radical way, is what the Bible calls

37:22

us to do is because we push justice

37:24

aside rather than entrust injustice to God.

37:26

And that's what I talk about in this chapter. What

37:28

does it look like to really entrust

37:31

justice to God? As Paul describes here at the end of Romans

37:33

12, rather than pushing to the

37:35

side and trying to ignore it?

37:37

Yeah. You know, people say, no, no justice.

37:40

No justice, no peace. I

37:42

think that's true in relationships

37:44

as well. But that justice

37:47

has to be God's justice, not my own.

37:50

Each one of these chapters ends with

37:53

questions. Questions that move

37:55

us beyond just knowledge to application,

37:58

and also prayer points as well. Before

38:01

we take our last break of the day, just talk about

38:03

the role of prayer and this in this

38:05

process, you don't just give information,

38:08

you're not just giving, um,

38:10

kind of pragmatic,

38:12

um, talking points. You're actually

38:14

driving us to depend wholly

38:17

on the power of the spirit to live this out.

38:20

Yeah.

38:20

I'm calling my readers to do what they can't

38:23

do. In fact, that's the whole

38:25

point. If they could do it, God wouldn't get the glory.

38:28

Uh, and anytime we are trying

38:30

to do something we can't do in our own strength,

38:32

the best strategy is to pray.

38:35

And so I give people ideas of what they can

38:37

pray for, things they can pray about for themselves,

38:39

for their church leaders, and

38:42

for their congregations. Because,

38:44

uh, prayer is asking

38:47

God to do the impossible, which

38:49

is the what he does all

38:51

the time. And he just says, you ask not

38:53

because you have, not because you ask

38:55

not. Uh, and,

38:57

uh, when we ask, we need to ask the right motives

38:59

and we need to ask. And he is gracious

39:01

as a father and he he gives what we ask.

39:05

How does the future and all that God promises

39:08

that lies ahead for us play

39:10

into this? We're going to talk about that on

39:12

the other side of this break. I really do

39:14

want to encourage you to get a copy

39:17

of the book. Um, I

39:19

think that this is a great book to read through

39:21

with the elders of your church. I really

39:23

do think it starts there. So,

39:26

brothers, I would encourage you to get a copy.

39:28

If you're part of the eldership

39:30

of a local church, that you would read through this

39:32

together before you just, uh, pastor,

39:35

start preaching it. Uh, I

39:37

think it needs to be modeled even

39:39

among those who are in leadership.

39:42

And and then it can really

39:45

bear much fruit among

39:47

the other brothers and sisters who are part

39:49

of the local church. If you love the

39:51

local church, if you believe the bride of Christ

39:54

is meant to reflect the glory

39:56

of her Savior, I want to encourage

39:58

you to get a copy of Love The Ones

40:00

Who Drive You Crazy eight truths

40:03

for Pursuing Unity in Your

40:05

Church. Don't go anywhere. We're going to

40:07

land this plane on the other side of this break

40:09

right after this. Here

40:13

on equip. It's our goal to help listeners

40:16

like you to understand and apply biblical

40:18

truth to the issues we encounter in

40:20

our culture, our community, and

40:22

our home. But we need your help. Will

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you join our family of Equippers

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by making an ongoing monthly

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do, you'll have exclusive access

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40:35

as well as our Equipper webinars

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and other special offers. Become

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an Equipper today. Call 888644

40:44

4144 or visit

40:46

Equip Radio. In.

40:52

Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks.

40:54

I want to say thanks to those friends who

40:56

are standing with us prayerfully

40:59

and financially. I mentioned earlier

41:02

today, as we wrap up this month,

41:04

that we need about five

41:06

friends who can stand with us with a gift

41:08

of $100 or more. Now,

41:10

every gift matters. And so I want to say

41:13

thank you. Uh, regardless of

41:15

the amount, those of you who feel

41:17

compelled to stand with us. But if you

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could be one of those five friends, it would make

41:21

a huge difference as well.

41:24

Why don't you call this number 888644

41:27

4144? That's

41:29

888644 4144.

41:32

And I like to always say this, that if

41:34

you're just starting to listen to the program, please

41:36

don't feel any pressure to

41:38

have to give. I mean that sincerely.

41:40

Your listenership is blessing

41:43

enough. But if you have been encouraged,

41:45

if your faith has been stirred, if you've

41:47

been equipped to more

41:49

effectively live, share and defend your faith

41:52

as a result of the guest and the resources,

41:54

the wisdom and the encouragement

41:56

offered through the program, I would encourage

41:58

you to go to our website.

42:01

Equip radio. Org. That's

42:03

equip radio.org or

42:05

to call 888644

42:08

4144.

42:11

Uh, Jamie, I'm going to read a verse of Scripture

42:13

to you, and then I would love for you to

42:15

help us to understand what's being referred

42:17

to here. Paul writes in Romans

42:19

1513, May

42:21

the God of hope fill you

42:24

with all joy and peace

42:26

in believing, so that by the power

42:28

of the Holy Spirit you may abound

42:31

in hope. What is the hope

42:33

that Paul is referring to here?

42:37

Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, the

42:39

very end of this long section on love

42:41

that he's given to us. Uh, he's

42:43

been talking about love between Jew and Gentile.

42:46

It's particularly evident there in the middle of

42:48

chapter 15. Uh,

42:50

and, uh, the

42:53

God of Hope, uh,

42:55

is referring back to just what you're

42:57

just talking about. He talked about, um, that

42:59

the Gentiles will hope in

43:01

God, uh, as

43:03

they're brought into God's family.

43:06

Uh, and hope is actually

43:08

a theme. He's talked about a lot in these

43:10

verses. In love. Uh, because

43:13

if we're going to love. Well, particularly

43:15

those who are very different from us, like these

43:17

Jew and Gentiles, we

43:20

need to have hope, right?

43:22

Hope is the language not of obligation,

43:24

but of good. Uh, we

43:27

love because we believe that God has

43:29

good for us in these relationships,

43:31

not just because we're supposed to

43:33

in real friendship, I think comes

43:35

from that seeking good together.

43:38

Uh, if you want genuine friendships like Paul

43:40

talks about in Romans 1210, uh,

43:43

then you need to have friendships

43:45

based on hope, not obligation.

43:47

And so I think hope is a significant,

43:49

uh, uh, source of

43:52

power in these verses. And so

43:54

we pray, Paul prays to the God of hope

43:56

that he would fill us with all joy and

43:58

peace as we believe, uh,

44:01

so that we can abound in

44:03

hope.

44:04

What happens when we

44:07

are as a as

44:09

a church body

44:11

experiencing this?

44:14

What is the picture in the hope of this?

44:16

When we really become a Christ

44:18

alone church.

44:22

Yeah. Well, one is that

44:24

like we talked about earlier, each of us need

44:26

to say, I really do believe that Christ

44:28

is worth more than comfort. I'm willing to put myself

44:30

in uncomfortable places, uncomfortable relationships,

44:32

because I'm seeking Christ. Uh,

44:36

you know, so, you know, Chris,

44:38

maybe you and I are both Pistons fans.

44:40

And when we get together, we talk a lot about basketball

44:42

and we talk about Jesus. But you've got another friend

44:45

where you really share nothing in common other

44:47

than Christ. Yeah. And

44:49

you learn in a kind of uncomfortable

44:51

friendship how to build a friendship based on Christ alone.

44:53

I promise you, Jesus is a better source

44:55

of joy than the pistons. Uh,

44:58

and, uh, so we need

45:00

to do that in our own lives as

45:03

a church, we need to recognize that

45:05

being a Christ alone church is

45:07

going to result in disagreement

45:10

and difference. Uh, so

45:12

we're going to disagree about politics. We're

45:14

going to disagree about social issues. We're going

45:16

to, uh, misunderstand each other culturally.

45:19

And that can be painful

45:21

in a fallen world. But

45:23

that's the flip side of the glory of being a

45:25

Christ alone church. And instead of being

45:27

upset that not everybody thinks exactly

45:29

the same way I do and everything that's important to me,

45:32

I need to step back and say, ah, what's

45:34

going on? Here is a demonstration of the of

45:36

the of the gospel's power.

45:38

Well, the gospel is powerful enough

45:41

to unite us even across cultural

45:43

and political differences. And I

45:45

love that this book is a practical guide

45:48

to helps us to explore

45:50

God's Word, in particular Romans 12

45:52

through 15, to show us how to find

45:55

God exalting unity.

45:57

And that's what my prayer is for the church.

45:59

And that's why I'm grateful that Jamie has

46:01

written this book. Jamie, I know life

46:03

is busy, and I'm really grateful

46:05

that you carved out time to be with me

46:07

here on equip to talk about

46:10

love, the ones who drive you crazy.

46:12

We appreciate you, brother.

46:15

Well, it's been a joy. Thank you very much.

46:17

Friends, I want to encourage you go to our website.

46:20

There's so much content in the book that

46:22

we couldn't get to.

46:25

Uh, but I think that each and

46:27

every one of us needs to read this

46:29

book in particular this year. And

46:31

I've talked about a couple of ways you could do it.

46:33

Uh, one of the ways you can do it is

46:35

by reading it alone.

46:38

But another way you can do it is

46:40

by encouraging your church to read

46:43

it together. In particular those

46:45

who are leaders friends, I

46:47

want to encourage you to do so and help. Help,

46:50

uh, your church to more properly

46:53

reflect, reflect unity in Christ.

46:55

Well, friends, I can't wait till we're together again next time.

46:57

As always, remember, equipped with Chris Brooks

46:59

is a production of Moody Radio, a

47:01

ministry of Moody Bible Institute.