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this episode is presented by connection

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when it comes to itt connections

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how at connection.com?

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hello and welcome back actually a podcast

0:21

about the business of startups where we unpack

0:23

the numbers and nuance behind the headlines

0:25

i'm natasha moss green us and this is our one

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day show or be nice down to a single topic

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think about a question and unpack the rest

0:32

this week we are talking about the thing

0:35

that has everyone tweeting reacting

0:37

and changing their mind about one of the most

0:39

famous venture firms out there right now

0:41

it's the fact that adam newman is back this time

0:43

with a real estate company a billion dollar

0:45

valuation and lots of hot

0:47

pics so obviously to come back as controversial

0:50

and we're asking a question in return is

0:52

the return a result of vision track record

0:55

or adam neumann privilege thankfully

0:57

not alone as always i'm i'm

0:59

joined by the wonderful anita ramaswamy

1:01

who hosts chain reaction and i knew that thanks

1:03

so much for jumping back on equity you're almost

1:05

a regular at those planes yeah it's

1:07

good to be here we have a lot of hot takes to get through

1:10

so i'm excited i know well we were

1:12

saying before with the episode but it's

1:14

going to feel a little bit therapeutic to talk through

1:16

the reaction and then actually get to some of the

1:18

socks and investor perspectives

1:20

here but i want to really start with wire

1:23

both of us talking about adam neumann

1:25

neither of us were really on the we work be

1:27

and you're covered the first story i saw on

1:29

a so tell us how you ended up here right

1:31

so i normally covered crypto infant tech as

1:33

y'all know on chain reaction and otherwise and

1:35

so we work and adam newman is pretty

1:37

outside of my wheelhouse but in may

1:40

you know i saw the news that he had actually raise

1:42

funding for a startup called flow carbon

1:44

from andreessen horowitz so that

1:46

was pretty wild it's a startup it does like

1:48

token eyes blockchain based carbon

1:50

credits okay and

1:52

you know there there's one a scam or are you going on

1:54

and that like general space not saying

1:56

that every single company operating in it is total

1:58

bs or anything like that but basically they're

2:00

trying to make a more tradable more liquid

2:03

market for carbon credits by putting them

2:05

on the blockchain obviously there's a lot of problems with

2:07

that in a lot of complications and concerns

2:09

because the blockchain itself takes up a bunch

2:11

of energy isn't the most climate friendly thing

2:13

so why not story came out at raise a lot

2:15

of eyebrows and people were like okay first of all it's

2:17

wild that he has gotten more funding from a sixteenth

2:19

he it's while that he got funding at all

2:22

and he was listed as a co-founder of that start up

2:24

at the time to even though it was sort

2:26

of run it by him his wife

2:28

rebecca and then a couple of others

2:30

including the ceo so it was like a group

2:32

of four or five people listed as co-founders but still

2:34

adam newman was on that list which is what caught my

2:36

interest yeah he had a new crypto venture

2:39

i mean i actually remember like yesterday because

2:41

we talked to go to an equity a headline from

2:43

chain reaction which was does we worked adam

2:45

neumann really deserve a second chance and that was

2:47

may twenty six twenty twenty two and here we are

2:49

talking about adam newman and if he really does deserve

2:52

another chance and i think that was like the deja

2:54

vu moment i had where it's not his second

2:56

chance with this new company flow similar

2:58

name same investor yeah it's a third

3:00

chance why is there that confusion because they

3:03

feel like it's something that a lot of people are asking

3:05

about is like didn't this already happened like a few

3:07

months ago yeah i was super

3:09

confused by this to so i woke up yesterday morning

3:11

and i saw all over my twitter feed

3:13

that there were people talking about adam neumann getting funding

3:15

for this new startup called flow and his old

3:18

start up as of may it was called flow carbon

3:20

so first of all they already have like the similar name

3:22

so i'm like what's going on here yeah and then

3:24

there and completely different industries to and

3:26

so i at first thought that media he had

3:28

raised more funding for flow carbon when

3:30

i actually looked into it know like that's a crypto start

3:33

up they actually took his name off

3:35

of the team page even when they were first

3:37

sort of pitching this around to reporters like it

3:39

never seemed like flow carbon wanted

3:41

to emphasize their affiliation with adam newman

3:44

is something that people picked up onto his name was said

3:46

there but they weren't like marketing it with him flow

3:48

meanwhile which again i saw the news yesterday

3:50

you know the new york times reported on it as well

3:52

as marc andreessen himself put out in an announcement

3:55

that flow had gotten this check from them and

3:57

adam newman was front and center like he was

3:59

the main [unk] and i think a lot of the reason behind

4:01

that is because it's a real estate business of the another

4:03

day he wants to do something like revolutionize

4:06

residential real estate rain there's not a fan

4:08

of he tells the it makes a lot more sexy putting

4:10

him front and center of a real estate company

4:12

vs emphasizing his role and a crypto start

4:14

up or yes absolutely no track record or experience

4:17

totally i think that's why it's struck

4:19

a different nerve this time because unlike

4:22

the crypto thing which was kind of easy to

4:24

a tribute to the general wave of

4:26

crypto and celebrities and questionable

4:28

characters yeah a real estate company

4:30

from adam newman was kind

4:32

of like whoa this is very close to home and

4:36

i want to talk about there's so many similarities and it

4:38

would actually be really fun to talk about these two kinds of flow

4:40

charts we're seeing but let's focus on the most

4:42

recent one which as you mentioned the

4:45

new york times reported on a three hundred and fifty

4:47

million round led or will leave

4:49

from interest in horowitz fully i believe yeah

4:51

okay so interesting worth the three hundred and fifty million

4:53

into adam newman's new company just

4:56

flow what else do we know about it at this

4:58

point that was the only reporting i saw out there

5:00

yeah that it was the one billion dollar valuation and

5:02

that they aren't operating yet so

5:04

they haven't made any revenue all they have

5:06

right now with a bunch of property is that adam neumann

5:08

has basically purchase and the company's going

5:11

to i think own and operate them

5:13

going forward okay i had a bunch of different markets

5:15

like he has some in miami he has some i think

5:17

in nashville like oliver the country and he's

5:19

bought these apartment units and he basically

5:22

plans to turn this into some sort of

5:24

like community based residential

5:26

real estate project and what's super interesting

5:29

about this is actually two things that stuck out to me one

5:31

of them is that this funding is a lot bigger

5:33

than what he got from flow carbon okay for flow carbon

5:35

they raise seventy million as

5:37

the first round of his

5:38

opening go insane so insane

5:40

and also it wasn't all from one from though whereas

5:43

this is three hundred fifty million reportedly all

5:45

coming from a sixteen v which is why is that more notable

5:47

the other thing that stuck out me as i was digging

5:49

into the history of we work like recently watched

5:51

we crossed and everything and i have met like fact

5:53

check the movie like i'm one of those annoying people that

5:56

they buy it like under your living there is nothing

5:58

okay i do all the time

5:59

the guy at my work i

6:02

don't know and i'll be like talking through a tv so

6:04

and my boyfriend he's ever adolescence

6:07

yes i was recently and it was funny because

6:09

i'm you is actually tried something like this before

6:11

like his first say the other for we work was about

6:14

doing some he grew up on a kibbutz and so he had

6:16

this idea of like bringing connie and

6:18

style living through residential real estate and that

6:20

never really took off but with we work he

6:22

did try to launch the thing cause we live yes

6:24

and the only ended up having like to properties in the country

6:26

and then it sort of fizzled out but i thought it was a kind

6:29

of throwback to that moment oh my god yeah

6:31

it's like an associate of us even the right where

6:33

it opened up a better word eventually because it's a

6:35

it's not as romantic as the salsa but it's

6:38

we , with different holidays so yeah

6:40

if we live was like such a moment and

6:42

we were history because it was trying to like bring

6:44

community that we work with pitching from it's

6:46

corking spaces into living situations

6:48

and it sounds like adam newman is very much

6:51

like you said kind of this and residential space

6:53

as and another detail i saw in the new

6:55

york times story that really stood out to me and you know

6:57

honestly i was like i would love it is happen because

6:59

i am renting right now is like this idea

7:01

that often him renters have zero equity in their

7:03

property and that's like this frustration where i feel like

7:05

i'm just putting money out there and it's not like ever

7:08

going to help me get money back so

7:10

right it's not an investment it's yeah

7:12

losing cause i would love to see that

7:14

principle of ownership so out

7:17

but that kind of like where my understanding of the sort of kind

7:19

of stopped is like an assault super early and twenty

7:21

three is the plan want so over one billion dollar

7:23

value is and hundreds of millions and venture

7:25

capital before launch yeah and all

7:27

they have some apartment units that they own

7:29

so i realize that of interesting too because

7:32

and be announcement from markings recent

7:34

who actually wrote it himself i wouldn't know he bought

7:36

me on twitter twitter

7:38

haven't been blocked yet so ah yeah i did

7:40

see a suite with the announcement with a couple of fiery

7:43

most of america but okay glad i'm missing

7:45

out on rights and break contact

7:47

know what is that an indian us that you know he had

7:50

talked about you know adam is going to

7:52

like change the way that we live

7:54

and he's had live and real

7:56

estate but there were not that many details at all

7:58

even high level about what the

7:59

strategy is there was some hint of maybe

8:02

they're going to do something and this ownership space

8:04

of rent to own but it wasn't a

8:06

definitive like oh that's actually happening i

8:08

know i'm like logic onto it as like that

8:10

so cool but i dunno if it's true

8:13

yeah yeah exactly theoretically yeah

8:15

but let's put a pin on in the news because i know you're going

8:17

to be on the techcrunch podcast this saturday with

8:19

darryl talking about adam newman and

8:21

we work and flow yet again the

8:24

details that we do have yes definitely

8:26

but i want to dig into the we're

8:28

talking around which is there's not many details

8:30

it's a return of a very controversial the founder

8:33

and actually like that was part of the reason

8:35

we felt a little unsure doing a follow

8:37

a piece which is episode of rooted on spoiler alert

8:39

and the first place i was a little worried because we don't

8:42

know too much on the details are so sparse like should

8:44

we even be getting more oxygen to something

8:46

as reporters because we thought this with adam newman's

8:49

rise for we were greatly journalist really

8:51

lifted up this narrative bought into it and really

8:53

chronicled it every type of the way and

8:55

pardon me with a little worried that is part of the point

8:58

of this and reasons biggest chuck over

9:00

and adam newman's come back to get techcrunch

9:02

to be doing a follow-up story

9:04

a podcast multiple podcast about it

9:07

that was my insecure side and de we

9:09

landed on covering it eventually yeah well

9:11

it's an interesting dilemma to because in some ways

9:13

like all press is good price i hate that that's true

9:15

but yeah i like saying the name and giving it airspace

9:18

that like it gets people's attention and now everyone knows

9:20

what adam newman is doing but i think at least

9:22

for me i know we had discussions about this before

9:24

natasha about like should be shouldn't we are

9:26

there are we going to go ahead with it was ultimately like

9:28

everyone was chatting about this and all of my circles

9:31

and i think there was a lot of emotion behind

9:33

that a lot of outrage i still like who

9:35

gets funded vs who doesn't and what does this

9:37

actually mean for the larger vc ecosystem

9:39

that someone like adam neumann has had

9:41

this big of a comeback you know despite

9:43

all of his mishaps failure is whatever

9:46

it is that you want to call them like we work hard a ton

9:48

of controversies and so it's really interesting

9:50

to see him like step back on the scene with

9:52

the bench for backing from like the biggest name in vc

9:54

arguably yeah i always turn back to

9:56

like advice i got like during my first internship

9:59

from or quarter and he was a flake often

10:01

times like things only feel crusade to us

10:04

because we love them but if we notice at

10:06

someone else maybe wants to sell heard or

10:08

would benefit from hearing

10:10

what you're seeing on the ground and also the most roads

10:12

like okay like we live and breathe

10:14

sort of and tuck and a lot of people who are reacting

10:16

this early to this do as well that

10:19

said something about capturing the emotion during this

10:21

time felt important because we

10:23

all know that women and people of color

10:25

don't get second chances at the same rate

10:27

that guy it melts do the

10:29

fact that people felt so emotional to me as like

10:31

people are now but the still felt something for that

10:33

feels like a story and in westchester and

10:35

i also want to be fair and how i looked at this

10:38

to write like we always talk about i think

10:40

failure it's like a big topic and silicon valley

10:42

and it's always like memorize and rest tyson

10:44

seen as this that thing but the ways that adam

10:46

newman and we worked failed or a lot more pervasive

10:49

it's not just like the venture didn't work out

10:51

it's also like there were issues of harassment

10:53

brought up and there were issues of discrimination

10:55

and like there were there with all sorts of stuff going on

10:57

there that i thought you know this is really the time that we

10:59

need to unpack it because there's so much storytelling

11:01

done yes through things like we crossed

11:04

but i also to bexar like let me take a setback

11:06

like am i getting this guy a fair chance the oh

11:08

like that at the end of the day i don't think that really changed my

11:10

conclusion too much yeah but i

11:12

will say i wanted to give it that kind of rigorous

11:14

luck because i know that there's other people who might

11:17

argue like this investment makes a lot of sense which

11:19

i know were plenty of talking about totally like

11:21

just because the story is repetitive are some of

11:23

the hottest too predictable doesn't mean it's not worth

11:25

writing her sharing and i don't really

11:27

good that we ended up writing it honestly and

11:29

now it's the grabbing a one on one but i just

11:31

like i'm like happy that we dead because based on some

11:33

of the reactions i'm hearing so far people wanted to feel

11:36

like they weren't so easy for having any reaction

11:38

period and i'll end with this other

11:40

bit which is seeing something like this happen

11:42

is contrary and in this moment we haven't even started talking

11:44

but the downturn yes but all

11:46

i heard in my years of covering

11:49

early stage venture his own does your think

11:51

about his track record and success

11:53

and like looking at references

11:55

and due diligence says

11:57

i use

11:58

the airports around that know

11:59

can see that began throwing it out what

12:02

damage i know i wish there was a way to like express

12:05

air quotes cause that's like half of what we do yeah

12:08

but yeah so because it feels really like

12:10

we weren't you guys all telling us that that's what

12:12

matters here and honesty matters here but then we're going

12:14

to going and invest and invest

12:16

who has been proven to be dishonest and doesn't

12:18

have the best references on the market it

12:20

just felt like those moments where it's like okay we gotta do something

12:22

about this right this is the question for

12:24

me right like if you take adam neumann outside

12:27

of the picture right he obviously has his own controversies

12:29

which were going to get into but what about the business

12:31

with the business worth it this sort of check and

12:33

a sort of investment it's a really interesting question

12:35

to ask especially at this moment i mean like we talked

12:37

about we don't have a bunch of details but in

12:40

theory it sounds like it could be a good idea and so

12:42

as we were really before the pen to make it was

12:44

super pressure like people were not thinking

12:46

about co-working spaces or like that

12:48

community aspect of things and that was something

12:50

a lot of people really enjoy it and that the end of the day like

12:52

it's still around despite all of the mishaps that happened

12:55

at the corporate level i'm so glad you said that

12:57

and i think that's where a lot of people tune out is like people

12:59

either love or hate adam neumann or love or hate

13:01

we work and it's like things can be true at the same

13:04

time i think dan prima tweeted this where it's

13:06

like yeah i don't even know the twelve and off my head

13:08

unfortunately but it's like things

13:10

can be true like we work and adam neumann could have been

13:12

disruptive business in person and it could also

13:14

have been full of a lot of issues and toxicity

13:17

but flow his new as company it

13:19

also has a good idea like it's also like we clearly

13:22

need the rental real estate market to

13:24

be disrupted and and i think that's the thing that marketers

13:26

and mentioned in his post where he was like there's

13:28

been a lot focused yeah sometimes accurately

13:30

again with my air quotes that's me quoting him though

13:33

quoting someone does not work while and vodka yeah

13:36

but marketers to move basically like there's

13:38

not enough weight being put on the fact that adam neumann

13:40

did something great and did something disruptive

13:42

and so i felt that the good segue into some of the

13:45

reactions we heard and i i think we're

13:47

going back to one of your questions you said what you like was the business

13:49

worth the truck did you and appearing a

13:51

yes or no from anyone that you were interviewing

13:53

yeah so i did i talked to a

13:56

not conwell who as the founder of rare

13:58

breed venturers they rbc from the and

13:59

it's been preceded on seed company is and most

14:02

follow on twitter also he's gras mack

14:04

the vc he gave me a really interesting

14:06

take which was basically that like if you put yourself

14:08

in the shoes of a sixteen v and you're thinking

14:10

about this investment it makes a lot of sense

14:13

because at this point when we're seeing an economic

14:15

downturn people want to invest in

14:17

areas that they consider to be safe and you wouldn't

14:20

think that on the surface it seems like a safe investment

14:22

back adam neumann right like everything blew up

14:24

he lost forty billion dollars worth of value

14:26

right right under his tenure at we work however

14:29

he is a guy who has a track record

14:31

of building a multi billion dollar real estate

14:33

business and there are not that many people who can

14:35

even say that they've done that and if you pair

14:37

that with the idea that most founders like their

14:39

first venture is not the most successful one oh

14:41

my god it always takes a couple of tries you

14:43

can see why an investor would look at this

14:45

and say like okay maybe this is worth of bet

14:48

i mean it's a huge bet that they've made obviously

14:50

but still but i think the counterpoint to

14:52

that that mack also shared was like

14:54

dot is sort of and reasons playbook yeah they've

14:56

never really deviated from that and they don't really

14:58

have to like they can keep backing

15:00

the same set of like white guys who always fundraise

15:02

and they can keep winning based on that because

15:04

that's something they can easily sell to their investors

15:07

worth taking a chance on it it's almost like the devil

15:09

you know versus the w don't right yeah

15:11

right and in a way like as you're saying that i'm

15:13

thinking like it's an outlier fun backing

15:15

an outlier vc like why are we

15:17

surprised it's like we're not is the answer yeah

15:20

we thought it was informative as with club house which

15:22

completely different story but people were

15:24

super surprised that club house has this reported

15:26

four billion dollar valuation before

15:28

even launching fully to the public and i

15:30

believe interesting rewards is also back to parker conrad

15:33

and i was talking to a vc and he was just like they

15:35

do love fucking like the fallen

15:37

star who can still prove ambition and

15:40

in some ways like if i have to take away

15:42

adam neumann from this or some of the drama

15:44

around his previous company like venture

15:46

is really boring for outliers right so

15:49

i wonder if it was like if it wasn't gonna be entries and

15:51

would it have been someone else i think so like

15:53

i think someone would have that kind of demon yeah absolutely

15:55

i mean it's interesting because i you know i do want

15:57

to pause here and actually like bring up one point about injury

16:00

making this investment which is that i know marc andreessen

16:02

caught some slack recently for on opposing

16:04

building thank you for spring this of affordable

16:06

housing and his own neighborhood so it's it's

16:08

an ironic tirade to see have sort

16:11

of put out this press release he's going to block

16:13

me after the your deathly drink

16:15

the yourself with by with will data

16:17

from sicily to see a predecessor least about like

16:19

changing the nature of housing and like you

16:21

know making housing more affordable and we have we have

16:23

crisis and like adam newman is the guy to fix

16:25

it like i think what math taught

16:27

me and our conversation with the i really have to step

16:30

out of my initial reaction to this and think

16:32

about it from the perspective as as he sees holy

16:34

like their job is to make a financial return

16:36

for their investors and they can do

16:39

it this way it's very possible that this is going

16:41

to be something that's lucrative for them though

16:43

i guess the question becomes like the business makes

16:45

sense to me i think our high level based

16:47

on what little we know newman

16:50

the right guy to do it and it's a sixteenth

16:52

he really like the from to make it happen and

16:54

to bankroll this like that's where i kind of get sucked

16:56

into out of like i don't know natasha like up through

16:58

this question of you like would you trust a business

17:01

run by adam new men with your home

17:03

for to manage and operate the company that

17:05

runs your home to be like you said we work

17:07

still exists in the world right now and all

17:09

that missing yes necessarily but i

17:11

wouldn't say it is not an easy know like

17:13

it's not like i'm never going to enter one

17:15

like i was looking at we were members of like a few

17:18

months ago when i was like losing my right

17:20

my head with work from home that said

17:22

no i don't think i would say like i don't think

17:24

personally old ever live in a rental property

17:26

those fully managed by a startup that's

17:29

not my wrestler and that spare her efforts

17:31

for i'm just not there i think there's lots of people that

17:33

are but like maybe those are the same people who believe

17:35

that hotter homes are like useful for their work

17:37

at think it takes a certain kind of person and it's

17:40

i've been wondering what we have yet to see as like can adam

17:42

newman admit and own up to

17:45

the mistakes that he made with we work i think that would

17:47

go a really long ways with not as journalists

17:49

but user as investors

17:51

the general

17:52

community i am pete i'm

17:54

lazy managers slash superhero

17:57

pennies but what happened

17:58

i put a mere

17:59

the expensive lottery on top of my car

18:02

drove off and it's failed

18:03

it's bathroom how's that my oh

18:06

my laptop of up there to okay

18:08

that's why we use connection services to manager

18:11

cloud everything's backed up i can access

18:13

your stuff remotely your won't miss a meeting

18:15

miss really wanted that like hey pete

18:18

for all your ita needs for pizza

18:20

talked to the experts in connection

18:23

i am pete i'm an i t manager

18:25

today i want to talk about

18:27

had that we've been hacked would happened

18:29

my password is my birthday everyone

18:32

knows that

18:32

feb fourteen why would have been we don't

18:34

get how these people figure this out think

18:37

i do have you ever updated it yes

18:40

i changed it to valentine status okay

18:42

we're protected with connection security

18:44

services you just gotta be more careful

18:46

peter yet for all your eyes

18:48

he needs for peed st talk

18:51

to the experts a connection

18:53

that's a great question because best

18:55

one that marc andreessen brought up in the press release

18:57

as well or his office about this was that something

18:59

to the effect of like founders learning from their

19:01

mistakes and doing things better the second time

19:03

around but i haven't seen any indication

19:05

that that's necessarily going to happen i think i could be

19:08

a big snob for this company as they try to recruit

19:10

talent you know yeah their former

19:12

employees that we work were not treated well

19:14

have fun of them are laid off while the company started

19:16

struggling was out of newman himself locked

19:18

away with away one billion dollar exit package

19:21

like personally if personally if attack employee looking

19:23

at were to work i would be wary i wouldn't

19:25

necessarily rule it out but i would be very wary about

19:27

joining of answer run by someone who has

19:29

dot kind of track record riot and

19:31

it's weird because i actually didn't even bring this up

19:33

yet but i already am yesterday from someone

19:36

who is like hey can

19:38

you introduce me to the folks over

19:40

at flow i really want to work there if i get the

19:42

job i will be your source on the inside

19:45

wow and that to me beyond

19:47

a lot of lakes the dc this and my time

19:49

when i know whatever one's responses gonna be stay

19:52

under where you get surprise gathered spicy

19:54

assists mighty and have been full of

19:56

a lot of people being super positive about the news

19:58

which i'm here for i think it it helps me kind

20:01

of step outside a natural easy reaction

20:03

that person the other me that i was like yeah

20:05

i mean people fall autumn newman the same way they follow

20:07

elon musk it's like an ideology

20:10

and so i think that there is going to cause of we

20:12

yeah oh my god i i keep myself up for the

20:14

yeah so i don't know i mean i think

20:16

there's probably that really natural and sicker people are going to want

20:18

to work for his cult of we again

20:21

a culture slow but yeah i

20:23

i guess if they work with press which andreessen horowitz

20:25

does not do too much historically

20:27

right there is large for comment with the blog posts

20:29

and thing that that's all they have to share at this time i did

20:31

request comment from flow so if i ever do

20:34

hear back from them a little definitely let you know

20:36

but are not in a way i'm kind of like if you're going to answer

20:38

questions and be transparent we could see a different company

20:40

here right right it doesn't necessarily see i'm

20:42

like that's what's happening but i think one thing that really

20:44

struck me and this question of like as adam neumann

20:46

the right guy to run this as a lot of hassle

20:48

free up some comparisons with like out of new

20:51

men versus elizabeth holmes oh

20:53

my god just kind of like putting all like

20:55

somewhat sketchy startup founders and the same category

20:58

which like personally i don't think really holds water

21:00

as an argument oh my god thank you yes

21:02

i i started with us because like

21:04

i won't lie like i originally was like those

21:07

tweets and like getting it yeah

21:09

you're right you're right the women and people of color

21:11

yeah it's like and it's so hard because i mean

21:14

and this is why i honestly think a podcast

21:16

and honestly podcast the most and then news

21:18

where it and then twitter work in terms of having a new ones conversation

21:21

about this but like what connie

21:23

said my editor here she was just like

21:25

it undermines the argument to

21:27

bring up elizabeth holmes as the founder that

21:29

didn't get the same treatment or luck that

21:31

adam neumann has because i lived at home committed

21:33

fraud and adam neumann didn't and i want

21:35

to hear what you think on that because i think that to me

21:37

like i agree completely but i also

21:40

think that that took a minute for me to understand

21:42

yeah absolutely i mean look there's a lot of anger

21:44

and a lot of emotion that even i was feeling as

21:46

well you know when you see someone like this who's

21:48

been given so many second third

21:51

fourth chances to fail and you know not

21:53

just fail but also mystery has employees

21:55

it is really frustrating when you think about how many founders

21:58

are out there who are women and people of color [unk] would

22:00

never be even afford to the first chance right let

22:02

alone the second one but it also

22:04

forced me to think a little bit about how much of my anger

22:06

is like being directed to adam

22:08

neumann specific lee vs the system

22:10

that enables him to rise right

22:12

like he was never going to i

22:15

this is something maggie sat our producer and i thought it

22:17

was really smart was like adam newman was never

22:19

going to put himself in time out right that's

22:21

up to the system and that's up to the people who are backing

22:23

him ultimately as well you know it's not

22:25

just a and i don't want to single out a sixteen

22:27

v here like i think you're totally right twenty they

22:30

hadn't invested someone else would have given him the check

22:32

right so yeah and i think the what what

22:34

we've seen from reaction so far too is like a lot

22:36

of people are pro this and i don't know

22:38

if one side is louder than the other honestly i

22:40

feel like i have a pretty diverse

22:43

twitter timeline yeah and source base

22:45

and so i've enjoyed being surprised

22:47

by people's reaction than seeing both sides through

22:49

our but yeah but i i totally agree like yeah

22:52

i dunno i i think it's like stop comparing adam neumann

22:54

tools but homes because they're to dramatically

22:56

different scenarios and i think neither of them

22:58

would say no to more money or one of them

23:01

committed fraud and one of them didn't

23:03

i dunno it's just weird dynamic right and

23:05

not all city behavior from leadership as

23:07

the same and i actually just going off in a

23:09

quick [unk] hara leave this reminds me of a lot

23:11

of the is like you know start ups sort of expose the

23:13

stories that we've seen and i think my

23:15

one frustration with them it's i think they're

23:17

super important and and we should like push

23:20

for more transparency and leadership but a lot

23:22

of or even narratives around startups

23:24

that feel like put a bunch of different

23:26

bad actions into the same bucket or categories

23:28

and that's the thing right like we actually really specific

23:30

about adam new man it said at this

23:32

particular thing which was bad right like

23:35

he made the decision to lay off a bunch of his

23:37

employees while he got a big payouts that

23:39

is different from knowing your product doesn't

23:41

work and still selling it to investors community

23:43

adjusted ebitda is like kind of like

23:46

placing and dicing in a silly and

23:48

truly nonsensical way right versus

23:50

well as the homestead and eventually got indicted

23:52

for yeah okay she vanished as i was like

23:55

forget where we i'm what young

23:56

and i want to

23:58

see with you on that hands at for as actually

24:00

and how the little bit about how arguments in watertown

24:02

other arguments and i think the female founder

24:05

take down sorry for example gray it has

24:07

unfortunately become i think of the barry

24:09

fair frustration that female ponders have

24:11

words like they're worried be vulnerable that it'll get loops

24:13

and to this bucket because some bad reporting

24:15

has watered down like the true reporting that

24:18

should be done on female boundaries that happened

24:20

to be doing bad things are as such

24:22

as the reporting it's even like overly generalize

24:24

discussions of these yet really specific

24:26

problems right the new ones is not

24:28

just like their to made us feel good about of those

24:30

like it is truly a difference

24:32

i do have more about him up on his reaction

24:34

to adam newman's return

24:36

because it is true that let's

24:39

take away all of that homes from they get by then we both agree

24:41

on that not being useful anymore and all

24:43

the adam newman privilege is a really real

24:45

dynamic that's happening and people are getting

24:48

from seeing him get you know andreessen

24:50

horowitz his biggest tested ever written in their history

24:52

and mean talk about signal say and the

24:54

one founder i spoke to allison buyers

24:56

she is the founder of scrupulous it's

24:58

a pop on the inside ever suffice sort of a make

25:01

founders more affect your backup or and she

25:03

really describe the feeling of muted rage which

25:05

i thought was like really well put so difficult

25:07

early today she says cook their

25:09

that under sort of acceptance and almost learned helplessness

25:12

or tommy with author and so much that

25:14

doesn't make the same impact anymore this all

25:16

seems new and horrendous said those who

25:18

have open their eyes to the systemic issues

25:20

a vc funding over the past couple of years

25:23

but we've done with it forever it's really just

25:25

a matter of fact and i can't let it consume my day

25:27

because i've got normal load of female founders

25:29

to deal file and quote i mean what's

25:32

your reaction to that perspectives that the

25:34

last part is so real was a

25:36

she's got to actually build and you've got

25:38

to do like i get it man i got it says

25:40

the i yeah that's the

25:42

thing right as like this as such it's

25:45

emblematic of emblematic much broader ecosystem

25:47

wide problem that people have been throwing

25:49

their hands in their air and saying like we don't know how to fix this

25:51

for ages female founders still

25:53

got like less than two percent of vc funding overall

25:56

i don't want to single out want sixteen the specifically

25:58

for this has this has has problem throughout the ecosystem

26:00

but you know looking at some data from crunch space

26:03

like it seems like they haven't backed a ton

26:05

of diverse founders either i don't know the full

26:07

accuracy of the steel like you know sorry some

26:09

what i see in other countries database but like over

26:12

see one answer to have this year a sixteen

26:14

the made one hundred nineteen investments and about

26:16

eleven or endeavor founders but that's that's

26:18

suddenly bad it's pretty low it's not representative

26:21

of the overall population of us where

26:23

they're investing or or anything even remotely

26:25

close to that but i think that's the reason why

26:27

people were so like this adam newman sorry really

26:29

had a nerve because it's like like this is another

26:32

yet another high profile example of the fact

26:34

that like you can be working really hard you

26:36

can be building something great you can be close

26:38

to perfect and still you're not going to get attention

26:41

from the theses at the end of the day because it's all about network

26:44

yeah yeah it feels a little

26:46

like actually ask a broader about

26:48

as who's a gp at the w on and i was

26:50

like woo why are we seeing a

26:52

seed round of this magnitude when everyone

26:54

else is telling me that on

26:56

seats ease investors' care about these days is

26:58

business fundamentals and the

27:01

fundamentals the eyes of fraud

27:03

or to and and track record

27:05

but like yep proof prove prove

27:07

prove his own hearing here we are

27:09

seeing vision and notoriety

27:11

get back and if i was a

27:13

boner as a woman of color like i

27:15

imagine i would read this and or

27:18

the hell out and put it where it's like i would feel muted rage

27:20

but like it's so raids and i wouldn't know

27:22

exactly what to do next and i don't know that's even a question

27:25

that either of us can talk through but it it's kind of

27:27

like the frustration where i'm where no one

27:29

really agrees on what venture

27:31

should be invested in and you kind of have

27:33

to pull your own game just being surprised

27:35

and upsets doesn't really change things

27:38

for you probably right and us for

27:40

what max that about you know it being an understandable

27:42

investment from a sixteen year it's

27:44

true it's stuff but it's true and

27:46

at the end of the day like it's not to say that

27:48

only these white guys who already have proven

27:51

that they can raise a billion dollars can build amazing

27:53

businesses that's the opposite of true but

27:55

also like cities aren't really being incentivized

27:58

to cast a wider net right that's a separate the problem

28:00

which involves like their stakeholders and their lp

28:02

than what those people are pushing for but

28:04

i think that's how big the problem is right now and

28:07

it's really hard to like think through a solution

28:09

when people aren't even on the same page about what the

28:11

goal should be as if you see from like a lot

28:13

of people think vc firms should be doing all

28:15

this stuff out of like charity or the goodness

28:17

of their heart but like nosed at the end of the day they have

28:19

to make a return and the fact is that diverse

28:21

founders will be able to make them

28:24

dot return yeah but at the same time

28:26

taking the quote unquote safe path of backing

28:28

the same set of white guys over and over again like

28:30

i guess is also a valid strategy and also

28:32

could work so what that means for like

28:35

women are people of color who are raising funds for the first

28:37

timer women and plc founders were raising

28:39

money to means that like okay well

28:42

i guess you will have to work twice as hard

28:44

to get half the attention yeah unfortunately

28:46

like that's just where we are today it's like there's

28:48

so much progress being made around emerging fund managers

28:51

and the people who get to see and choose

28:53

who gets their capital which i

28:56

will continue to beat the drums for his

28:58

up friends at or else having a cigarette

29:01

butt like something that denny crane in

29:03

when he was on the pod we're talking

29:05

about this a while ago where he was just like we're

29:07

going to see those seeds turn into

29:10

trees and plans with very far

29:12

down the road riot like there's a reason why

29:14

we're not seeing a three hundred and fifty

29:16

million dollar check go that way and i'm not

29:18

seeing it has to be the divers people funding divers

29:20

people at him and his to be like a broader change

29:23

in the collective venture mindset but i

29:25

think of anyone listening as like i thought we were making so much

29:27

progress with i still think we are adding there

29:29

is hope to be found him we will continue looking at

29:31

it but i think other reason why and

29:33

emerging been measured doesn't yet have the investment

29:35

in buddhism andreessen horowitz which do not

29:37

going to venture capital firm anymore as elixir of

29:39

even looking at them as venture capital like i don't

29:41

know how that's true there and our air yeah

29:43

we saw no at the details of the deal and

29:46

my understanding probably have that it's not

29:48

fully three hundred and forty million dollars in cash

29:50

and so stir are like ways we can put boundaries

29:52

and not kind of completely get lost in

29:55

preseason or if you're pro this if

29:57

you're pro this it's also like does not be end

29:59

of organ the cover adam newman there's a lot more

30:01

where this of coming from south there's like on both

30:03

sides a lot more it we still have to answer your

30:06

and hopefully there's some reason for optimism and hope

30:08

to you know the time horizons for some of these investments

30:10

are just so long and it really does take

30:12

i think the shift has to happen before thing level

30:14

air has to happen in terms of how are these these

30:16

actually building their networks and interacting

30:19

and talking to people and those changes to take a really

30:21

long time for people of color and for weapons a break

30:23

and to those conversations that historically

30:25

they haven't had access to but i have

30:27

hope that it's happening and as as infuriating

30:30

as like i did personally find this out of

30:32

different story it's not the end

30:34

at all it's not something that i wanna let

30:36

get into my head personally and

30:38

i hope the other feel the same way we we

30:40

got to keep fighting yeah i mean i also want to interview

30:42

this person i want to ask questions like i wanna

30:44

have an actual conversation about the clotilde

30:47

of a lot more effective than just raging on

30:49

the internet which i'm glad we are doing is like

30:51

similar to comparing him to have that homes

30:53

like just writing off any of

30:55

the positive the we work would completely undermine

30:58

argument that er et cetera

31:00

i want to and would kind of a return to our starting

31:02

question which is do we think the return

31:04

of adam human as a result of vision track

31:07

record or privilege have you

31:09

entered on any of those as the

31:11

right answer that's a great question

31:13

i would say it's say combination of vision

31:16

and privilege and privilege foods

31:18

vision gets credit almost

31:20

a direct result of privilege some any that is kind

31:22

of what it comes down to at the end of the day i do think

31:24

you know it's a good idea but hey there's a lot of founders

31:27

out here with a lot of good ideas severino

31:29

in that crowded marketplace of ideas why

31:31

is it that adam doom and with the one to get selected

31:33

vs anyone else it's not a he's any necessarily

31:36

like worse i mean yes in some ways

31:38

but he also has some experience

31:40

but if you really that much better than he deserves

31:43

like the biggest check he succeeds the as ever

31:45

and like that i'm not so sir so gallon

31:47

on privilege there but what about you i would say all

31:49

three of i completely seal you i think it's kind

31:51

of a cop out but i think they all blunt and for

31:53

each other where it was like his vision and ability

31:56

to envision that he sewed with we work and

31:58

probably helped a track record of getting attention

32:00

and just knowing how to get people to give him money

32:03

that is where it takes to be a venture backed founder like

32:05

in order to be venture backed you need to be able to get venture back

32:07

and i feel like that's what he's really damn good

32:09

at and then privilege of getting that second chance

32:11

despite all the negative publicity that

32:14

eventually though his ouster right these are things

32:16

that has impacted him in the path and he's found a way to

32:18

repackage in a way that got him this chance

32:20

but i also think that you perfectly sad

32:23

he's not necessarily going to space

32:25

or trying to do something that's like super

32:27

other worldly disrupting the rental market

32:29

is a start up idea we've seen once a

32:31

day for like the past ten years and

32:33

so why is it adam neumann

32:35

i don't i i know because of those

32:38

three reasons but it's important to remember that it's not

32:40

like a crazy idea necessary not

32:42

a moonshot at all no no

32:44

it's not and i think you also interview [unk]

32:46

wonder of a similar start up to write for the sort

32:49

yeah yeah common founder i mean that

32:51

was the first company i thought of when i heard this and i was like

32:53

commentary do this is trying to make rental real estate

32:55

have more community feel and their former

32:57

ceo still there founder

32:59

bride was basically just like this

33:02

is a lot of money but i'm very positive

33:04

about it common interestingly enough

33:06

operates and a former we'll have building so

33:08

full circle tuck is a full of copycats

33:11

i'm so happy we talked about this though and

33:13

it felt therapeutic and i hope it did for you to

33:15

oh absolutely there there's a lot more

33:17

where this came from yeah hopefully

33:20

we push the envelope in this discussion a little

33:22

their i know that i got a lot of my thoughts and

33:24

feelings that would certainly therapeutic they for

33:26

having the on yes of course

33:28

and if we missed anything let us know

33:30

kindly at equity pod and you know where can

33:32

people find you on the internet and on

33:34

techcrunch shot you can hit me up at at

33:37

anita ramos on the on twitter or at

33:39

seen underscore reaction on twitter it's

33:41

the podcast and newsletter that i am

33:43

a call herself it's an amazing podcast

33:45

a newsletter and you wouldn't we brought on jackie who is one

33:47

of our new or crypto reporters as well

33:49

which is it makes it a really fun crypto

33:51

to him yeah it's been a blast that athletes be sure

33:54

to check out chain reaction perfect would

33:56

beg you so much anita and everyone else

33:58

you will hear some as on

33:59

it would

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