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0:32

Today's episode

0:34

is presented by Equinor, one of

0:36

the largest suppliers of energy to Europe.

0:39

Always searching for better solutions solving

0:41

the energy transition. Political

0:44

deadlock in Spain is over. After

0:50

a snap, inconclusive general election

0:53

in the summer, not everyone believed that

0:55

Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez would manage

0:57

to form a coalition and stay in power. But

1:00

he did.

1:04

What

1:07

did it take? A long time, painful

1:09

negotiations, an amnesty for

1:12

hundreds of Catalan separatists, a

1:14

spat with Brussels and, just last

1:16

weekend, mass protests in Madrid

1:18

and other cities across

1:19

the country. Pedro

1:23

Sánchez will remain Prime Minister for

1:25

a second term. But at

1:27

what price?

1:31

I'm Susanne Lynch. On this episode of

1:33

EU Confidential, we discuss the

1:35

turmoil in Spanish politics and

1:37

its spillover into Brussels, which could

1:39

affect next year's European Parliament elections.

1:43

Later, we get an update on the EU's trade

1:45

negotiations. I spoke with Mauro Veira,

1:48

Brazil's Foreign Minister, earlier this week

1:50

in Brasilia. Brazil currently holds the presidency

1:53

of the Mercosur Group. That's a group of four

1:55

South American countries which has been in trade

1:57

talks with Brussels for almost 25 years.

1:59

years, an agreement was reached in 2019

2:03

but is still not in force. Is

2:05

there light at the end of the tunnel? We

2:07

are not happy at all. We

2:10

cannot accept restrictions

2:13

and sanctions imposed

2:16

on the Merkel society. If this is not

2:18

negotiable so we will not have a deal.

2:22

But first let's begin with a dramatic few

2:24

weeks in Spanish politics. I'm

2:26

joined by my colleague Aiter Hernandez-Merales

2:29

who's been covering the ins and outs of

2:31

this Spanish saga and Nick

2:33

Vinacur, political editor at large. Hi

2:36

guys, thanks for joining.

2:37

Hey Suzanne. Hi, great to be here.

2:40

So Aiter, first to you, you've been covering

2:42

the developments in Spain. Bring

2:45

us up to speed on where things stand

2:47

now.

2:47

Well the four months telenovela

2:50

that Spain has been living has finally

2:52

come to an end or at least this chapter has come to

2:55

an end. So on Thursday

2:57

the Spanish Parliament confirmed Pedro

3:00

Sanchez as Prime Minister which is,

3:02

I really want to emphasize, a remarkable

3:04

turn of events. When Sanchez called elections

3:06

last May his party had been destroyed

3:09

in regional and local elections. They had

3:12

lost power in basically every

3:14

major Spanish city and

3:16

it really looked like he was a political cadaver

3:18

to the point where there was speculation he might come up to Brussels

3:21

and accept a job at at NATO. Instead

3:24

he's flipped the narrative. First he managed

3:26

this miracle of performing

3:28

relatively well in the summer

3:30

elections on July 23rd and

3:33

his second miracle I would say is cobbling

3:35

together this parliamentary

3:38

alliance and figuring out a way

3:40

to bring the Catalan separatist group

3:42

Junz back into the fold and

3:45

to get them not only to agree

3:47

to back him but to agree

3:50

to certain tenets of the of the Spanish Constitution

3:53

which really helped re-establish

3:56

or at least they hope a constructive dialogue

3:58

with one of the most

3:59

radical of the Catalan separatist parties.

4:01

So this issue about the Catalan separatist

4:04

party, this is the issue that

4:06

has proved the most controversial over the last couple

4:09

of weeks. And the reason we've seen protests in

4:11

Madrid and other cities. Explain

4:13

to us what the government has

4:15

decided to do in order to get this party

4:17

on board and form part of the government. Well

4:20

the Catalan separatist party is,

4:22

its de facto leader is the former

4:25

Catalan president Carlos Puigdemont. Now

4:27

Puigdemont was responsible for that 2017

4:31

independence referendum in Catalonia which we all

4:33

know failed. It was declared

4:35

illegal. And in the immediate aftermath

4:38

he had to flee Spain basically because authorities

4:40

were seeking to arrest him. He

4:42

ended up fleeing to Brussels and many of us know him from

4:44

the European Parliament where he serves as an MEP.

4:47

One of the key demands

4:50

from Junz in exchange for his support

4:52

was an amnesty not only for Puigdemont but for

4:54

everyone else prosecuted for actions

4:57

related to the Catalan independence movement

4:59

over the past decade. That was a very

5:02

big pill for Sanchez to swallow especially

5:05

because Sanchez had spent little

5:07

years saying that such an amnesty would

5:09

be illegal, that it would run afoul of the constitution.

5:12

And yet here we are. An amnesty bill

5:14

was presented on Monday by Sanchez's

5:16

socialist party. It extends to all

5:18

the people that we mentioned before.

5:21

So we're talking about roughly 300

5:25

people that in different levels

5:27

of the Catalan government were indicted

5:30

for their participation in that referendum but

5:32

also many other just normal people

5:34

who have been prosecuted for

5:37

participating in protests or other

5:39

actions related to that separatist movement.

5:42

In the rest of Spain this has not gone down

5:44

particularly well. There's just been a lot

5:46

of anger mainly because amnesties

5:49

are not a particularly common thing in

5:52

this country. Most people can only

5:54

remember the 1977 amnesty which was declared during

5:58

Spain's transition to democracy. And it was

6:00

a broad political amnesty that sought

6:03

to pacify the situation

6:05

in the aftermath of the death of dictator

6:08

Francisco Franco and the end of his regime.

6:10

Now, that amnesty was motivated basically

6:12

by a regime change, by the fact that Spain was fundamentally

6:16

changing the way it operated and the next year

6:18

it would pass. It's

6:20

a 1978 constitution, which is the one that is still in

6:22

effect. Sanchez's amnesty

6:24

or this Catalan amnesty, meanwhile,

6:27

is basically motivated by

6:29

the need to form a government and many people are

6:31

upset. Sanchez, of course, argues that this

6:33

is, you know, a step that is going to

6:36

help facilitate coexistence in Spain

6:38

and improve Spanish unity

6:41

by bringing the Catalan separatists back into

6:43

the fold and starting that dialogue. But

6:45

that hasn't necessarily convinced all Spaniards

6:48

and certainly hundreds of thousands

6:50

have turned out for protests over

6:52

the past few weeks.

6:53

It looks like, though, it's going to

6:55

succeed for Sanchez. He's now won

6:57

the backing of a majority of lawmakers in the Spanish

6:59

parliament. He's going to be prime minister.

7:02

We'll hear from Nick in a moment about

7:04

some of the repercussions in the EU, but

7:07

it does seem to have worked for him. Is that

7:09

the case? And what kind of a government now are we going

7:11

to have in Spain?

7:11

It's a remarkable vindication

7:14

of his gamble because, you know,

7:16

when he called those snap elections in May, polls

7:19

had the center-right popular party ahead.

7:22

And so the center-right popular party did score

7:24

the most votes in that summer election. It

7:27

just wasn't enough to be able to form a government. Sanchez

7:29

has really managed to find a way to

7:31

remain in power in terms

7:34

of the sort of government that he's going

7:36

to head. So we already know that he's going

7:38

to form a coalition with the left

7:40

wing Sumar group. The real

7:42

question is if that coalition is going to

7:44

be able to pass any major legislation.

7:47

And that's basically because they

7:49

will have to rely on this

7:52

broad swaths of

7:54

separatists and left wing groups that

7:56

have backed them now that have given Sanchez their

7:59

vote of And when

8:01

you really start looking at

8:04

their policies and ideological

8:06

positions, these groups are radically

8:08

different. Just to take one example,

8:10

when you look at the groups representing the Basque Country,

8:13

you have the Basque Nationalist Party, which,

8:15

you know, does support Basque nationalism

8:18

as its name implies, but is a fundamentally

8:21

conservative, socially conservative, economically conservative

8:23

party. Whereas the other party

8:25

with representation, BILU, is

8:27

a far left party that has

8:30

incorporated members of the now

8:32

defunct terrorist group, ETA. So

8:35

we're talking about groups that, sure, they've agreed

8:37

to back Sanchez, but will they agree

8:39

on some broad economic

8:42

policy? It's very unlikely. And

8:44

that's going to make it difficult for Sanchez

8:46

to bring legislation forward. But

8:49

what we should keep in mind is that people

8:51

expressed the same doubts about his previous

8:53

government, which was the first coalition government

8:56

in Spain since the 1930s, and

8:58

they passed plenty of progressive legislation. So

9:01

Nick, turning to

9:01

you, fascinating analysis

9:04

there from EITOR about what's been happening in

9:06

Spain, but there is an EU angle

9:08

to this. Tell us more.

9:09

Right. Well, we're in the Game

9:11

of Thrones of influence and power

9:14

going into the European Parliament election

9:16

next year. And obviously,

9:19

Spain was potentially in

9:21

the conservative camp and

9:23

is now looking like it's going to be one

9:25

for the socialists. So this is

9:27

a very, very big prize. And there's

9:30

basically a fight going on between the

9:32

center left and the center right over

9:34

this proposed reform for Pedro

9:36

Sanchez to form a government. We're really

9:38

seeing the rhetoric getting very heated

9:41

as it hasn't been since Katargay.

9:43

Because as you say there, the EPP,

9:45

the Central Reich political family, they

9:47

had been hoping that one of their own would win the Spanish election.

9:50

That didn't happen. And instead

9:52

Sanchez, a socialist, is on course.

9:54

So as you say, a valuable prize there

9:57

in terms of who controls power

9:59

in the country. different political groups in Brussels.

10:02

And of course, Nick, this tension between

10:04

the EPP, the European People's Party

10:06

and the socialists and the other political

10:08

groups in the parliament has huge knock-on

10:11

effects also for next year when

10:13

we're going to have the reshuffling of top

10:15

EU jobs that will follow the European

10:17

parliament elections in the summer. Absolutely.

10:20

In several ways. I mean, one thing is

10:22

that the EPP and the socialists

10:25

essentially work as a coalition in parliament.

10:27

They work together to support the commission's

10:30

agenda and have done for the past five years.

10:32

The rising tension, it sort of raises

10:34

the specter that this coalition may

10:36

not work so well in the next term

10:38

or may actually kind of come apart. If

10:41

they're fighting so openly, this is actually quite

10:43

uncommon. There's also an implication for

10:45

top jobs. Portugal's prime minister,

10:47

Antonio Costa, was tipped to be the

10:50

president of the European Council, the gathering

10:52

of heads of state and government. And

10:54

he's now ensnared in a corruption

10:56

scandal in Portugal. So the EPP

10:59

is firing on that front as well and

11:01

trying to get him really ruled out of

11:03

the fight there and trying to weaken

11:06

the socialists. And all this basically

11:09

undermines this kind of a compact

11:11

between the center right and center left.

11:13

Manfred Weber, the de facto

11:15

leader, the EPP, he's had

11:18

something to say about the developments in Spain.

11:20

Absolutely. Most conservatives

11:22

have been firing with both barrels

11:25

against Pedro Sanchez. The thing they're

11:27

taking issue with is not just the proposal

11:30

to amnesty, Catalan, separatist,

11:33

but also some of the legal reforms that

11:35

were proposed as part of the deal to

11:37

bring the separatists into government,

11:40

which includes some provisions

11:42

about basically oversight of the work

11:44

of independent judges. And they have taken

11:47

this on and are calling it a rule of law

11:49

issue and comparing Spain to

11:51

Hungary and Poland and saying there's

11:54

a live rule of law issue in

11:56

Spain and the European Commission

11:58

should get involved. And in fact, they did get

12:01

a bit of support from the European Commission because the

12:03

Justice Commissioner, Didier Reinders, sent

12:06

a letter last week to the Spanish

12:08

government asking for clarification and

12:10

now they're studying this law

12:12

which has now been presented and could

12:15

yet say more.

12:15

So, Brussels has been taking note

12:17

of what's been happening internally in Spain. In

12:20

terms of this battle between the EPP

12:22

and the socialists, so what's next? Weber

12:26

has threatened that this will be on the agenda at

12:28

the next plenary session in Strasbourg.

12:29

Exactly. He has said

12:31

he put it on the agenda as we know the

12:34

agenda itself, the setting of the agenda is

12:36

quite political. For now, there's

12:38

nothing specifically on Spain but it's a session

12:40

about rule of law and the EPP

12:43

could seek to get that on

12:45

the agenda. But it's a very fast moving

12:47

story because Pedro Sanchez has

12:49

essentially formed his government now and

12:52

by doing that he is reinforced

12:54

in his position of power and

12:56

it will basically take a lot of unpicking

12:59

or it will take a lot of pressure to

13:01

undo what he's done, to undo the deal he's made

13:04

with the separatists. So we'll see where we are next week,

13:06

maybe this becomes less urgent. They're fighting

13:09

a bit of a rearguard battle here. So

13:11

they're really just kind of scoring points

13:13

here.

13:13

Of course, interesting there that the leader of the socialist

13:16

in the European Parliament is herself Spanish and

13:18

of course Spain is holding the rotating

13:20

presidency of the council at the moment. So,

13:22

interesting times. Thanks to Nick and Eitor

13:25

for that analysis.

13:26

You're welcome, thanks. Thanks Susan. After

13:30

the break, the EU

13:31

Mercazer trade talks have been dragging

13:33

on. Both sides say they want to see

13:35

the deal by the end of the year. Can

13:37

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15:42

In a moment, I'll be speaking to Brazil's

15:44

Foreign Minister, Mauro Viri, who

15:46

I met earlier this week in the Brazilian capital

15:49

of Brasilia, where a meeting of Club de

15:51

Madrid, an association of former presidents

15:53

and prime ministers, was taking place. But

15:56

first, I'm joined by our trade expert

15:58

here in Politico, my colleague,

15:59

Camille Gays. Hi there Camille.

16:02

Hi Suzanne. Great to have you with us. Now

16:04

we're going to be hearing from the minister

16:07

about the ongoing negotiations

16:09

between the EU and these four Latin American

16:12

countries known as the Mercosur group in

16:14

a few minutes. Could you bring us up

16:16

to speed about what is Mercosur, what is

16:18

the trade agreement for some of our listeners?

16:21

Of course. So the Mercosur agreement is

16:23

basically a landmark trade agreement

16:26

between the EU on one side and

16:28

the Mercosur countries on the other.

16:30

So there is Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay

16:33

and Paraguay. And so basically the negotiations

16:35

have started in 2000. There was

16:37

a political agreement in 2019

16:40

but since then the EU has kind of postponed

16:43

the signature of the trade agreement over

16:46

deforestation concerns especially

16:48

in the Amazon under former Brazilian

16:50

president

16:51

Jair Bolsonaro. So Camille

16:53

you mentioned deforestation

16:54

and we're going to hear a lot about that from

16:56

the minister. What exactly do

16:58

you mean by deforestation? Why is it controversial?

17:00

Yes, so the deforestation regulation

17:03

is basically a set of new rules which

17:06

is going to soon force EU companies

17:08

and companies around the world to trace

17:10

their commodities to the exact

17:13

plot of land where they were produced

17:15

and to make sure that it was not on land

17:18

recently deforested. So you know in

17:20

practice this is good news but the trade

17:22

partners of the EU are kind of worried

17:25

that it's basically adding more trade barriers

17:27

for their produce to come to the EU. I

17:30

see and obviously this

17:32

whole issue about environmental standards

17:34

deforestation is a controversial one. We've

17:37

heard a lot from environmental activists

17:39

over the years about Mercosur. Exactly, so

17:41

you know just in general in Europe the public

17:43

opinion is a bit concerned about

17:46

the deforestation in the Amazon and although

17:48

you know the Brazilian government says

17:50

it's doing a lot of effort people are not too

17:53

convinced about it so you know it's it's

17:55

also a whole kind of bunch of people to

17:57

convince on top of the EU countries who are

18:00

known to be a bit more cautious towards the deal.

18:02

And we'll hear from the current Minister of Foreign Affairs

18:04

making this point that they feel that Brazil has

18:07

now changed, that it's making efforts

18:09

to address deforestation concerns. As

18:12

you say there, this has been going on for some time, for

18:14

decades now. Why is the idea

18:17

of a trade agreement with these South American

18:19

countries so controversial for a lot

18:21

of EU countries? Yeah, so indeed, there

18:23

are a few countries which are leading

18:26

the charge, really. On the one side,

18:28

we have France, for instance, Ireland

18:30

also. They fear about their

18:33

agricultural sector, and they

18:35

fear that the imports, for instance, of

18:37

the Mercosur beef could ruin

18:39

their own domestic industry in general.

18:42

And on the other side, the Mercosur

18:44

countries are also kind of worried about

18:47

too much experts from the EU manufacturers

18:50

on their own markets. So things like cars,

18:52

presumably, German car makers, they could

18:54

benefit from this because they could increase

18:57

their exports to South America. Yeah, exactly.

18:59

And so, for instance, in terms of the

19:02

deforestation concern, Brussels has

19:04

come forward in March this year with

19:06

an extra sustainability document,

19:09

which basically lists the new

19:12

unilateral measures that the EU put

19:14

forward since 2019, which

19:16

is kind of raising the

19:18

concerns of the Mercosur countries because

19:21

they feel like their own producers are not

19:23

going to be able to keep up with these new roles.

19:25

And so basically, the Mercosur countries feel

19:28

like the EU is reimposing

19:30

new demands on their producers,

19:33

and that it's putting a burden on them. Now,

19:35

both sides have said that they want

19:38

to deal before the end of the year. I mean, it's a

19:40

very, we've got elections now, runoff

19:42

elections in Argentina, for example, and

19:44

we've got our own European elections

19:47

next year, so we're coming to the end of the European Commission's

19:49

current mandate. I mean, things

19:51

have kind of slowed down. I mean, negotiations are

19:53

going on constantly between the lead negotiators,

19:56

but a number of roadblocks really have emerged

19:58

in the last few weeks and months. Yeah, exactly.

20:01

And so, to be honest, there was a lot

20:03

of hope in the beginning of the year that we would

20:05

be able to seal an agreement between Brussels

20:08

and the Mercosur countries by the end of the

20:10

year. Commission President Ursula von der Leyen

20:12

also pledged for a deal to be

20:14

done by the end of the year, so did President Rula.

20:17

But so basically, it's looking increasingly

20:19

unlikely that we are getting there, especially

20:22

when it comes to these roadblocks that we've mentioned,

20:25

but also the fact that geopolitically it was

20:27

really the perfect moment, because

20:29

on the one side, Spain was heading

20:32

the presidency of the council. On

20:34

the other, it was Brazil who was heading the

20:36

presidency of the Mercosur group. So

20:39

these two countries, Spain and Brazil,

20:41

were super keen to seal the agreement.

20:43

But now, as you say, we are looking at the

20:46

elections in Europe. But this

20:48

weekend, there is also the second round

20:50

of the Argentinian elections, which

20:53

one of the top candidates might be a

20:55

bit more skeptical towards the deal and

20:58

towards the Mercosur

20:58

group in general. To me, thanks so much

21:00

for that update. Thanks.

21:03

Now, to our interview with the Foreign Minister

21:06

of Brazil, Mauro Vera. I asked

21:08

him about the state of play when it comes to the Mercosur

21:10

trade talks with the EU, and also

21:13

about Brazil's position on the Israel-Hamas

21:15

war.

21:16

Brazil is currently a member of the UN Security

21:18

Council and was chairing talks on Israel-Hamas

21:21

last month. Also, the country is

21:23

poised to take over the presidency of the G20 from

21:25

India. So we'll be in the international

21:28

spotlight over the next 12 months.

21:31

What team that connects Brazil

21:34

and the European Union is the Mercosur

21:36

trade deal? It's one of the longest running,

21:38

I think, negotiations that have been going on

21:40

to try and seal this trade deal between the Mercosur

21:42

countries and Brussels.

21:45

Do you think an agreement will be agreed,

21:47

reached by the end of the year?

21:48

I hope so. President

21:50

Lula is very much engaged on that.

21:53

He wants to have

21:55

the conclusion of the

21:58

technical part of the... agreement

22:01

concluded by the mid-December

22:04

when it's the end of our presidency

22:06

of Merkel. So we are working very hard.

22:09

We still have a few issues

22:11

on the table but the important

22:13

thing is the content of

22:15

the negotiation is the the issues

22:18

that were pending that we are making

22:20

good progress and we continue to

22:22

work with the European side.

22:24

One issue is deforestation. The EU

22:27

has got requirements about deforestation

22:30

and Brazil is not quite happy with what it's been asked

22:32

to do there by the EU. We are

22:34

not happy at all. President

22:37

Lula has stated since he took office

22:39

his position and his policy

22:42

with regards to climate change

22:44

with the environment and so on

22:47

there's no doubt about the message

22:49

that he's sending since last

22:51

COP, COP 27 in Sharm

22:53

el-Sheikh in Egypt and we

22:56

believe that our system

22:58

of monitoring is very

23:01

reliable, very good and it has to

23:03

be accepted by the European

23:05

Union. We cannot accept

23:08

restrictions and sanctions imposed

23:12

on the Merkel society. If this is not

23:14

negotiable so we will not have a joke.

23:17

If we can sit down

23:19

and agree on this monitoring

23:22

on both sides that the best way

23:24

to find a solution.

23:26

You would prefer that the deforestation

23:28

proposal from the European Commission that it's not

23:30

applied to Brazil that would

23:31

be your idea? Not applied to the

23:34

region. We can

23:36

apply, we can respect the protection

23:40

of the forests and our

23:42

policies but we cannot accept European

23:45

legislation to be imposed with the methods

23:48

of the European legislation. We

23:50

do have our own way to follow

23:54

to monitor the progress.

23:56

President Lula has just announced

23:59

this week. results of

24:01

the deforestation during this, let's

24:03

say, 10 months, first 10 months of his

24:07

third term. The results are

24:09

great, are fantastic. All the

24:11

structures of the different ministries

24:13

involved in the monitoring of

24:15

the forests is in place

24:18

again. We are recovering all the structures

24:20

that we had. So I think it's very

24:23

serious. We have very serious

24:25

institutions that have to be taken

24:29

into account their work and

24:32

all the mechanisms that we have to monitor.

24:34

So that's it. We need

24:37

to continue to talk on this basis.

24:39

We're

24:39

meeting just as some Brazilian

24:42

citizens have arrived back in Brazil

24:44

from Gaza. Can you tell us about that

24:46

and what kind of negotiations

24:48

had to happen to get these people

24:51

out? Well,

24:51

it was the 10th

24:54

flight that we have to bring Brazilians

24:57

or relatives of Brazilians back

25:00

from Israel, from

25:02

Palestine, and now this last one

25:05

from Gaza. And we had 32 Brazilians

25:09

and relatives on board. We

25:12

started the negotiations with the parts

25:14

involved, Israel, also

25:17

Egypt. Shortly after

25:19

the incidents and

25:22

the war started in Gaza,

25:25

we have been in touch

25:27

with the government of both sides exactly

25:29

to negotiate. It involved

25:32

a lot of work, diplomatic work

25:34

of negotiation and also support

25:37

of those people. The majority, they

25:39

were in North Gaza and so they were

25:41

moved to the south by our embassy

25:45

in Ramallah. They helped

25:47

relocate them in the south

25:49

and give them shelter, give them food

25:53

and money. They left Gaza

25:55

through half of it. They went to Cairo

25:59

and they flew from Gaza.

25:59

Cairo to Brasilia. JANIS More generally

26:02

about the conflict now in the Middle

26:04

East, what's your view? Do you think it's time

26:06

for a ceasefire? FREDERIC

26:07

JOHNSON Well, it's more than time

26:09

for a ceasefire and for a

26:11

humanitarian action of some kind.

26:14

That's what we did during the whole month of October,

26:17

during our presidency of the Security Council.

26:20

We tried to break a deal that would

26:22

allow the parts to stop

26:24

for a while, to allow

26:26

the exit of this region,

26:29

of this area, of all the

26:31

citizens and the civilians

26:34

who have nothing to

26:36

do with what is going on with the

26:38

war and the fighting. So I

26:40

think it's more than time that we

26:43

break a deal to have some kind

26:46

of pause, humanitarian pause, to

26:48

allow some kind of help to

26:50

the populations and those who are

26:53

still there who cannot leave because it's

26:55

all they have, it's where their family,

26:58

their houses, everything they have is.

27:01

So we have to try to

27:03

find a way to have some

27:05

kind of relief. JANIS More

27:07

for our listeners in Europe in particular, the

27:09

view in Latin America, and I know

27:11

not to generalize, but there's been quite

27:14

a strong call for a ceasefire

27:16

in the Middle East and among

27:19

some of other countries in the region,

27:21

a very strong criticism of Israel. Do

27:23

you think that the so-called global south

27:26

or Latin America have a kind of a different view

27:28

to what's happening in the Middle East, that maybe

27:30

America, Europe, takes the view of these countries

27:32

when it comes to crisis like the Middle East or Ukraine

27:35

for granted?

27:36

FRANCIS Well, I believe that

27:39

we have a very similar

27:41

position in so many different areas,

27:44

specifically with respect to the

27:46

crisis in the Middle East.

27:49

What we see here, what we realize

27:52

is that the world has to take

27:54

some steps. We cannot continue

27:56

to see this fighting against...

28:00

civilians and shelling

28:02

of hospitals and so on. We

28:04

know very well how everything started.

28:07

We have a very critical

28:10

position about everything,

28:12

but we cannot continue like

28:15

this, watching bombing

28:17

of hospitals, of civilian installations.

28:20

We cross our arms. We have to do something

28:23

and try to find a solution.

28:25

And that was Mauro Vira, Brazil's foreign

28:28

minister. And that's

28:30

all we have for you this week on EU Confidential.

28:33

Please remember to follow us on your favourite app and

28:35

email us with opinions or ideas for guests

28:38

or topics. You can reach us at podcast

28:41

at politico.eu. Thanks

28:43

to our executive producer for audio in

28:45

Berlin, Cristina Gonzalez, and

28:47

Diana Sturrus, our senior audio producer

28:50

here in Brussels. I'm Suzanne

28:52

Lynch. See you next week.

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