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the energy transition.

0:26

It's been a big week for the European

0:29

Union. Enlargement is

0:31

a vital policy for the European

0:33

Union and this has been my main

0:36

message since the beginning of my mandate.

0:38

Completing our union is the call of history.

0:41

It is the natural horizon of

0:44

the European Union. On

0:46

Wednesday, European Commission chief Ursula

0:48

von der Leyen announced that the Commission

0:50

is recommending opening accession talks

0:52

with Ukraine and Moldova. It

0:55

is now 10 years ago

0:57

that the protests on Maidan

0:59

started. Maidan protests were people

1:02

were shot because they wrapped themselves

1:04

into a European flag. And now 10

1:08

years later, today is a historic

1:10

day because today the Commission recommends

1:13

that the Council opens accession

1:16

negotiations with Ukraine

1:18

and with Moldova. The proposal,

1:21

which still needs to be approved by EU member states,

1:23

marks a remarkable turnaround for the EU,

1:26

which until

1:27

just recently showed little appetite

1:29

to add new members. Ultimately,

1:32

it took war on the European continent, Russia's

1:35

full-fledged invasion of Ukraine last

1:37

year, to put the question of EU

1:39

enlargement back on the agenda.

1:45

I'm Suzanne Lynch, host of EU Confidential.

1:48

Now, before we get into discussion

1:51

about EU enlargement with our panel, I just wanted to

1:53

turn to some breaking news in Europe this week.

1:55

And that was the resignation of Portugal's

1:57

Prime Minister, António Costa.

1:59

To discuss more about this, I'm joined

2:02

by Politico's own Eitor Hernandez

2:04

Morales. Hi there, Eitor. Bring

2:06

us up to speed.

2:06

Yeah, it's really been

2:08

a crazy development. So on Tuesday

2:11

morning, we woke up to news of police

2:13

raids in the prime minister's

2:16

official residence, the Palace of São Benzo

2:18

in central Lisbon, and several government

2:20

ministries. And it wasn't really clear

2:23

what was happening. The prime minister Antonio

2:25

Costa, who's been in office for eight

2:27

years, quickly scurried off to the president

2:30

of the Republic's Palace, and he held a long

2:33

meeting with him there. And it wasn't

2:35

quite clear if he was directly implicated,

2:38

even though it was clear from

2:40

the start that people very close to him were

2:43

being snatched away by police. So by

2:45

midday, we finally had confirmation

2:48

from Portuguese prosecutors that Costa

2:50

himself was being investigated

2:53

as part of this probe. So what

2:55

this probe is all about is corruption

2:57

and corruption linked to green

3:00

energy in Portugal. The focus

3:02

here is on strategies that

3:05

were very much pushed by the EU. So

3:07

part of the investigation centers on mining

3:10

concessions for lithium in northern

3:12

Portugal, and that's very much directly linked

3:14

to the EU's critical raw material

3:16

strategy. And then the other part

3:19

was a green hydrogen

3:21

mega project in C&H, which

3:24

is a major port little south

3:26

of Lisbon. And in that case, again,

3:28

we have an overlap with green policy

3:30

that's mainly the EU's green

3:32

deal, clean energy push. So

3:35

in both cases, it seems that people

3:37

involved with these schemes were at

3:40

least evoking the prime minister's name to

3:42

have procedures sped through and

3:44

streamlined. And Portuguese

3:46

police believe that there was corruption

3:49

involved, and so they are looking

3:51

into all of that. So

3:52

what happens next? Portugal is now with the prime minister.

3:55

Yes and no. So we

3:57

actually have a very interesting situation, which is on...

5:59

publish their annual progress report

6:02

which outlines the prospects of all 10 candidate

6:05

countries who are hoping to join the EU.

6:07

To discuss this more I'm joined by Barbara Moon,

6:10

Chief EU Correspondent, Jakob Hankovella,

6:12

author of Brussels Playbook and Sam

6:15

Green from the Centre for European Policy

6:17

Analysis. Hi there all. Hi.

6:18

Hi Suzanne. Hello.

6:21

Barbara starting with you, on Wednesday

6:23

we have this big announcement by European

6:25

Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. Now

6:28

this is a report that the Commission comes

6:30

out with every year, a kind of report

6:32

card on how various countries who are

6:34

in the waiting line to join the EU

6:37

perform but this year there has been

6:39

a lot more focus on us. Maybe you could explain

6:41

why. Yes exactly. So there has been

6:43

a certain enlargement fatigue before

6:46

Russia's invasion of Ukraine, a

6:48

lot of countries especially in the Western Balkan

6:50

who were in the process but there was not much

6:53

political will to get that process moving.

6:55

That changed obviously with the war

6:57

in Ukraine. There was a sort of process

7:00

to get Ukraine and Moldova faster

7:02

into those talks and there was a lot

7:04

of spotlight on the decision on Wednesday

7:07

because as was expected European

7:10

Commission suggested to start accession

7:12

talks with Ukraine and Moldova and also move

7:14

forward with other countries like

7:17

Georgia.

7:17

And the Commission recommends that the Council

7:20

grants Georgia the status of

7:22

a candidate country on the understanding

7:25

that certain

7:25

reform steps are taken. That

7:28

is not a final decision. We still

7:30

have to have a political backing by EU

7:33

leaders at the December summit but

7:35

it is a very big step for

7:37

Ukraine and Moldova and it's not a coincidence

7:39

I think that von der Leyen ahead

7:41

of this announcement went to the Western

7:43

Balkans, went to Kiev, she already

7:46

went to Moldova previously to have

7:48

the discussion with leaders there and

7:50

also to give a sign really a political

7:52

sign of you know we take this very seriously

7:54

and this is where our political minds are focused

7:56

on now.

7:57

to

8:00

Kiev Laff again, we might come back to you on

8:02

that. So Jakob, as Barb explained,

8:05

there was this report card

8:07

that came out this week, but there are a number of countries

8:09

that were covered by this. Right,

8:10

right. So there's 10 countries that

8:12

are potential future members of

8:14

the EU and the report looks at the 10 of them

8:17

and for three it says they're

8:19

advanced enough so that we can actually

8:22

start accession negotiations. So

8:24

we can start talks on the nitty-gritty

8:26

of joining the EU and these three are Ukraine,

8:29

Moldova and Bosnia.

8:30

The Commission also recommends the opening

8:32

of EU accession negotiations with Bosnia

8:35

and Herzegovina once the necessary

8:37

degree of compliance with the membership

8:39

criteria is achieved.

8:41

Whereas other countries are in different stages of

8:44

their accession.

8:44

One of the debates we've been hearing

8:47

about for months here is that is it

8:49

fair that Ukraine is getting

8:51

all this attention and you've got other countries, specifically

8:54

those six Western Balkan countries, but even

8:57

Turkey, which has been a negotiation

8:59

of some kind with the EU for decades, that are kind of

9:01

at the back of the queue. I mean, what

9:03

else did this report say about those other countries? Yeah,

9:05

so that was a big discussion leading up to

9:07

Wednesday's announcement. The

9:10

fact that this process still has to be

9:12

merit-based, as they call it, so really taking

9:14

into account the process

9:14

on the ground and not just to political

9:17

will and also the political sign

9:19

towards Ukraine and the people fighting there

9:22

that maybe one day they will be part of the

9:25

EU. So what you saw on Wednesday,

9:27

there was also a lot of movement on

9:29

some of the countries in the Western Balkan.

9:31

That is also something that will be more discussed

9:33

at the December European Council. And

9:36

also, I think what's on the line and others stressed

9:38

is that Ukraine and Moldova, and especially

9:41

Ukraine, despite the fact that they are in

9:43

the midst of a war, actually also made progress.

9:45

And we also heard that in Kia

9:47

from Zelensky and from other political

9:50

actors that

9:52

they don't expect to get special treatment,

9:54

but they do want acknowledgement that

9:56

they are doing these reforms very

9:59

fast.

9:59

same time that they are fighting

10:02

the Russians in this war. And I remember at a

10:04

previous point the Commission had set out seven

10:06

milestones that the Ukrainians

10:09

would have to reach before they'd be given the green

10:11

light for the next step. Where are they

10:13

on those seven recommendations?

10:16

Yes, so four of them are okay

10:18

and then with three others, so minorities,

10:20

corruption, the oligarchization,

10:24

which is a word I cannot pronounce in English. And

10:27

that's a good example of a Brussels- Exactly,

10:29

I'm

10:29

not sure if it's even a word in English, but

10:32

it is Commission speak. So on those three

10:34

steps they still have work to be done,

10:36

but still the Commission is recommending that

10:39

we move forward in the process, which will then be

10:41

a discussion by leaders. And I think we

10:43

also have to acknowledge that this is one very

10:45

important, very symbolical step in the process, but

10:47

the process will still be long and

10:49

very difficult.

10:51

Jakob, I mean you've been writing about this in

10:53

various ways in Playbook each morning.

10:56

One country which has been interesting here, as it always

10:58

is in the EU, is France. I mean traditionally

11:00

there were a number of countries that

11:02

were pretty lukewarm about the idea

11:05

of expanding the EU even further after

11:07

that big wave of enlargement back in 2004 and

11:10

chief among them was France. But

11:13

there has been something of a change now. President

11:15

Macron was speaking at the Bratislava

11:17

Summit back earlier in this year

11:20

and it was a kind of a reach out to a

11:22

central and eastern European countries. And with

11:24

the sense that the position in France was changing, it

11:26

seems to have changed. France has seemed to have come

11:29

around with this idea of enlargement.

11:30

Right. So Macron made,

11:33

you could say, a big U-turn. It was a big political

11:35

move to say that he's in favour of enlargement,

11:38

especially that Ukraine's future

11:40

is in the EU. But he's also linked

11:42

it to something that France has always

11:45

wanted for a very long time, which is reforming

11:47

the EU in order to have what

11:49

you can call a rapporte-acarte or Europe

11:51

with several speeds. Basically this

11:54

idea that you have a core that moves

11:56

faster on integration, that moves on

11:58

things like taxes, budget. further

12:00

integration, political integration. And then you

12:03

have like a periphery or several different

12:05

degrees of integration where some

12:07

countries would just be members of the single

12:09

market. Some countries that are

12:12

right now members of the EU but might want

12:15

less integration like Hungary could

12:17

then kind of join one of those outer circles.

12:19

So Macron's bet and that

12:21

of the French government but several

12:24

other EU countries as well actually is

12:26

to link these two things to say, yes, we are

12:28

in favor of Ukraine joining the EU but

12:31

it has to be done in parallel

12:33

to negotiations on reforming the EU.

12:35

Yeah, that's interesting. I was in Berlin last

12:38

weekend with a conference that Anna-Lena Baerbock,

12:40

the German foreign minister hosted about the EU

12:42

with EU ministers from across the block. And

12:44

what are the points she made? She made this quite

12:47

strong speech saying that the EU needs to reform

12:49

in order to enlarge. But some

12:52

of the things that she was suggesting may

12:54

not go down well with maybe some of the smaller countries.

12:56

For example, she talks about reducing the number of

12:58

commissioners, the idea that the commission is

13:00

becoming too unwieldy. She talks

13:03

about getting rid of the veto that using qualified

13:05

majority voting in more instances like taxation

13:08

and foreign policy. But I know from covering

13:10

this for years as an Irish journalist, I mean, that's

13:12

something, for example, Ireland does not come to back. It

13:15

likes its veto over taxation. Barbara,

13:17

how much of a discussion is there going on about

13:19

this idea of needing to reform the EU? I

13:21

mean, these are big kind of proposals

13:24

now that the EU is putting forward. Yeah, definitely.

13:26

And I think, as Jakob said, one year ago, these

13:29

were thoughts that some officials had. Now

13:31

you really see up to the leaders level this

13:33

discussion of we have to reform

13:35

the EU if we also want to be ready

13:38

to absorb, as they call it, some of these

13:40

new countries, especially Ukraine, which has

13:42

a very large population and which

13:44

will be coming out of a war. So that

13:47

discussion is ongoing. And there

13:49

is a big chance that at a certain point they will be

13:51

politically linked to have a

13:53

sort of parallel process of EU

13:56

enlargement at the same time intra-European

13:58

reform. And indeed.

13:59

There are lots of ideas around at the moment. The

14:02

European Parliament president, Roberto Metzla, for

14:04

example, told our colleague Eddie Wax a

14:06

few weeks ago in an interview that perhaps

14:08

Ukraine could have observer MEPs

14:12

at the European Parliament, but of course, that started a lot of conversation

14:14

from some people who said the European Parliament is big

14:16

enough to really need extra

14:19

observer MEPs. Sam, bringing you in

14:22

from the Centre for European Policy Analysis.

14:24

Look, big picture here. How

14:27

important is it, do you think, for

14:29

the EU's future? How significant is

14:31

this moment that the EU is now

14:33

seriously considering opening

14:36

up to the east further and ultimately

14:38

allowing in countries like Ukraine into

14:40

the club? Well,

14:41

I think it's a massively important moment.

14:44

I wouldn't call any of this a foregone conclusion, right?

14:47

As we've been discussing, there are

14:49

a tremendous number of issues that have to be resolved,

14:52

any one of which could stymie this, and there are others

14:54

that you haven't mentioned. Under current

14:56

calculations, under current formulas, if

14:58

Ukraine answers the European Union, it will absorb more

15:01

or less the entirety of the Common Agricultural Policy,

15:03

right? These sorts of things are going to be very difficult to

15:05

negotiate, but as your colleagues

15:08

have mentioned, the reality is that

15:10

it's not just that Europe needs to

15:13

reform to enlarge, it has needed to

15:15

enlarge, to face this enlargement in

15:17

order to unstick, I think, some of the questions

15:20

on reform. I think this has the potential to

15:23

both add a lot of impetus and energy

15:25

to conversations that have been stuck for a very

15:27

long time, and that have the potential

15:29

to open up new possibilities for Europe, and also,

15:32

I think, represents a

15:34

sort of geopolitical awakening from

15:36

a European perspective. There

15:38

had been up until certainly 2022,

15:42

possibly things began to change

15:44

after 2014 and the initial invasion

15:46

of Ukraine, but there had been an approach

15:49

of what I would call sort of benign neglect to

15:51

the Eastern Partnership, to the Eastern Neighbourhood, to

15:53

that territory between Russia and the European

15:56

Union, and certainly to the Western Balkans as

15:58

well. There had been... an assumption

16:00

that these countries will be able to sort things

16:03

out on their own and that they will eventually

16:05

be attracted by the inherent

16:08

benefits of European integration,

16:11

even if Europe doesn't actually do a lot in that

16:13

direction. I think what has been learned over

16:15

the last couple of years certainly is

16:18

that that neglect is not in fact so

16:20

benign and that it comes at a very real

16:22

cost to the European Union. So as costly

16:25

as it is, as it has been to support

16:27

Ukraine through this war and as costly as it will be

16:30

to integrate Ukraine, Moldova and others

16:32

into the European Union, I think there is

16:34

a growing understanding and a

16:36

fundamental shift in understanding about the

16:38

fact that not bringing them in may end up being

16:40

considerably more costly.

16:42

Yeah, it's interesting. We interviewed

16:45

the foreign minister of Austria, Minister

16:47

Schallenberg a few months ago on the podcast and he

16:49

was making that point that at other moments

16:51

in European history, they've put aside

16:54

concerns about the situation in the country.

16:56

He was talking about Spain when it was admitted, Greece

16:58

when it was admitted, that there were still early

17:01

days of democracy and yet the

17:03

right thing to do at that time was

17:05

to absorb these countries into the EU. And

17:07

as he explained there, it seems to be that kind of moment

17:10

that they realize we have ignored

17:12

this part of our continent, but

17:14

in the meantime, we're playing with fire

17:16

there because if we take the eye off the ball,

17:19

well then Russia will get in there, China

17:21

has got influence particularly in the western Balkans,

17:23

etc. Now we just take a quick pause

17:26

and we back shortly with the rest of our panel

17:28

discussion.

17:47

Thank

17:54

you.

17:59

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19:10

Jakob, do you think this is an example, I mean we've

19:12

heard about, Eartha von der Leyen wanted this

19:14

to be a geopolitical commission. Now

19:16

we see how difficult that has been, how

19:18

complex that can get, you know, her recent

19:20

visit to Israel for example, and then there was a whole

19:22

debate about, you know, who is she speaking

19:24

for when it comes to European foreign

19:27

policy. But this development this week undoubtedly

19:29

shows that the EU and the European Commission is

19:32

opening up, as Sam said there, and is realizing,

19:34

you know, it's not just about a club, about a single market,

19:37

it's about

19:37

much more than that. Right, exactly. I think

19:39

a decision to open accession negotiations

19:42

with Ukraine, Moldova, but also

19:44

Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was a surprise to

19:47

many, is an example of a more geopolitical

19:49

commission, as Sam said, because if

19:51

you, at least as many Commission officials

19:54

tell us, if you look at the facts,

19:56

these countries haven't really fulfilled

19:59

all the criteria.

19:59

year yet and actually the report says

20:02

that as Barbara said and still

20:04

the Commission says

20:05

politically we want to give the signal

20:08

that we're opening the door to the succession

20:10

talks and they square the circle of kind

20:12

of keeping it a merit-based approach but

20:14

at the same time giving this political signal they

20:16

square the circle by saying we will

20:19

open the talks we recommend opening the

20:21

talks now but we will actually only open

20:23

them once you have met these criteria.

20:25

As you were writing this week in Playbook Yakov you

20:27

made the point that the whole one of the ironies

20:30

here is that you know even if the member

20:32

states in Sembres say yes as we

20:34

know from Turkey yeah they can say yes because

20:37

maybe it's never gonna happen you know that this thing it could

20:39

stretch on for years or do you think this time it's different?

20:42

I agree I think especially when it

20:44

comes to Ukraine it's gonna take at

20:46

least until there's a clear border

20:48

for the country and most ministers

20:51

we speak to off the record tell us that they

20:53

hope that by the time these

20:55

negotiations progress there

20:57

will be some kind of settlement but

20:59

of course this is gonna take this could take years.

21:02

But this is again a kind of a twist

21:04

here that even though they're at war that you know

21:06

the Ukrainians themselves say this that the promise

21:08

of EU membership or the prospect of EU membership

21:11

has in fact allowed them to push

21:13

through changes politically that in normal

21:15

times they probably might not have done

21:18

so perhaps a little bit quicker than we thought I mean

21:20

Barbara you're just back from Ukraine what were your impressions

21:22

of that trip you traveled with the president of

21:25

the European Commission and Commission officials

21:27

I mean what's the mood in Kiev are they

21:30

hopeful I mean we talk about

21:32

war fatigue in the West I mean this week

21:34

even President Zelensky is trying

21:36

to keep his own country together on this.

21:39

Yeah exactly I think the context was very interesting

21:41

in the sense that this trip had been scheduled

21:44

beforehand because of this report card

21:46

and this decision but it

21:49

was a good timing for the EU in

21:51

the sense and for Ukraine itself in the sense that everyone

21:54

was talking about the war in the Middle East and the

21:56

shift of focus towards the Middle East and

21:59

it was a very clear sign from

22:01

the EU by the presence of the European

22:03

Commission president to say standing

22:06

next to the Ukrainian president Zelensky

22:08

that, you know, this is important to us,

22:10

we will stand by you as long as it takes. All the

22:12

messages that they have sent before

22:14

it, but that were important to say again this time

22:17

because of the war in the Middle East. And

22:19

to also acknowledge the work

22:21

that has been done to prepare this

22:24

future accession and to give a sense of,

22:26

you know, we have not forgotten you. I think

22:28

that was a very clear message. Zelensky

22:31

looked very tired, to be honest. European

22:35

counterparts also acknowledged that on

22:37

background. But at the same time, he

22:39

also made very clear that, you know, we don't

22:41

have a choice. There is no alternative. So

22:43

we will keep fighting. We will keep fighting

22:46

for detention of the West. And this

22:48

happened just among comments in the Economist

22:50

that, you know, there was a certain stalemate

22:52

in the war, certain fatigue. So

22:55

Zelensky tried to fight back against that

22:57

and stress that, you know, they will keep going,

22:59

whatever

22:59

it takes.

23:01

Sam, some final thoughts from you. I mean, you mentioned there,

23:03

like we're only at the beginning of this process, really.

23:06

I mean, how do you see this playing out

23:08

in the

23:08

months or indeed years to come? Well, first of all,

23:10

this process isn't happening in a vacuum, right? So

23:12

this is happening at the same time that there are conversations

23:15

about rebuilding Ukraine from its amount of investment and reconstruction.

23:18

There will also be a NATO summit in Washington

23:20

this summer, which we are expecting

23:22

further progress towards NATO membership

23:25

for Ukraine. And these things feed on but

23:27

also depend on each other. It also feeds

23:29

into the decisions that, you know, Vladimir Putin will

23:31

be making himself about how

23:33

to prosecute this war, what kind of resources

23:35

to put in and really what his prospects

23:38

are. It will feed into decisions being made here

23:40

in Washington and Capitol Hill about

23:42

the investments that they're going to make in Ukraine.

23:44

They will want to see that there is

23:46

a European trajectory for Ukraine as

23:48

well. And it will feed into decisions

23:51

being made by private businesses who will want to know

23:53

what sort of a Ukrainian

23:55

economy they are investing in, one that's going to be trading

23:57

with Europe or one that's going maybe not to be trading

23:59

with Europe. not so much to be headed in that direction.

24:02

And so I think it's important

24:04

to understand and make sure

24:06

that whatever the process is, it does not

24:08

get bogged down in a sort

24:10

of difficulties of internal European politics,

24:13

but that it does recognize the

24:15

broader geo-strategic, geopolitical, geo-economic

24:18

implications of these

24:20

decisions and even of the words used.

24:22

If somebody says, yes, we can start

24:24

the conversations now, but this is going to be a generational

24:27

thing or two generations down the road, or it may never

24:29

happen, right? That reverberates in

24:31

key. If it reverberates in Moscow, it reverberates

24:34

in Washington and it is incumbent upon,

24:37

I think, European leaders to be cognizant of

24:39

that.

24:39

Well, no doubt we are going to get more clarity,

24:42

more perspectives on this next month, at

24:45

that December European Council. Thanks,

24:47

Barbara, Jakob and Sam for joining us.

24:49

Thanks, Susan. You're welcome. Thank

24:51

you.

24:53

Now, before we go, we're joined by Politico's

24:55

head of audio, Anne McElvoy. Anne,

24:58

good to have you back on the podcast.

25:00

Lovely to be back on with you, Susan.

25:02

Now, you're, of course, the host of our sister podcast,

25:05

Power Play, and you do have a guest this week

25:07

that our listeners here would be very

25:09

interested in, and that is Greek Prime

25:12

Minister Kyriacos Mitsotakis.

25:14

That's right, and one of the reasons, Susan, we were very

25:16

keen to talk to him at the moment is partly

25:19

because of the crisis in the Middle East.

25:21

And Greece plays a significant

25:24

role there, both geopolitically, but

25:27

also, I think, speaks quite strongly

25:29

for the southern flank of the EU.

25:32

Mitsotakis, the Prime Minister, is reelected.

25:34

He's got a quite strong pulpit,

25:37

and it was really interesting how he chose to use

25:39

it. So what was his view on

25:41

this Middle East issue at the moment, Anne?

25:43

What was very interesting, Susan, was that

25:46

we actually went back to Mitsotakis

25:47

because the situation on the ground was moving

25:49

so fast.

25:50

And you'll have seen this as well,

25:52

covering Brussels, what I'm seeing, moving

25:54

around Europe quite a lot at the moment, is there was that early

25:57

strong support for Israel, a kind

25:59

of whatever it was. takes vibe that was coming

26:02

from European leaders. I think that

26:04

is if not fragmenting it is getting much

26:06

more nuanced and listeners might

26:08

be interested in how Kiryakis Mitsutakis

26:12

phrased that and it's along the

26:14

lines that Israel needs to take

26:16

care, perhaps take more care. So I

26:18

think that the mood because

26:20

of the events on the ground in Gaza and

26:23

the damage there and the human

26:25

so-called collateral damage but the images

26:28

that are going around and people are watching politicians

26:30

are aware that public mood

26:32

is a bit unstable. He also

26:35

wants to be seen to be taking what's happening in Gaza

26:37

seriously and send a

26:38

warning back to Israel.

26:40

That sense, capturing that sense now that

26:43

Israel could indeed squander

26:45

that public support it had at the beginning

26:47

as this war continues in Gaza.

26:50

Very interesting and other issues

26:52

you guys discussed I mean for example we

26:55

know here that Ursa von der Leyen paid a trip to

26:57

Greece over the summer.

26:58

Yes I did tease him about that so that

27:00

I was in Greece at the time as well and I

27:02

think actually story was was largely broken

27:05

by Politico and there he was

27:07

in Crete at his residence with Ursa von

27:09

der Leyen.

27:10

You took Ursa von der Leyen on holiday.

27:13

She came on on a vacation.

27:15

She did and I really you know it's so strange

27:18

why sometimes people are always looking

27:21

for a subplot and what is essentially

27:23

a good personal relationship that

27:26

I think is important. I mean I think they we

27:29

invest in these good personal relationships but

27:31

I mean the institutional independence is

27:34

guaranteed and we're all... Was

27:37

there a bit of beach going on there?

27:41

We are professional politicians

27:44

but at the end of the day getting to

27:46

know our interlocutors better on

27:48

a personal basis I think is quite important.

27:50

I think for Mr Mitsutakis

27:52

that is a sign that Greece is if

27:55

you like back in the European fold

27:57

after the near

27:59

Grexit.

27:59

crisis and the years when it was seen as

28:02

very much the problem child of Southern

28:04

Europe. And it's not too bad if you could

28:06

persuade Ursula von der Leyen to go on

28:09

holiday and spend time with you. He said

28:11

it was a private visit. He wouldn't tell me they'd gone swimming

28:13

together. I like to think they didn't spend all their

28:15

time sitting on very hot plastic chairs at

28:18

about 90 degrees. Yes, the

28:20

old business trip excuse she was using

28:22

there, it seemed. Thanks so much for that, Anne.

28:25

We will have a link to that episode for

28:27

our listeners in our show notes.

28:28

Thank you very much. Lovely to be on the show.

28:32

And that's it for this week on EU Confidential.

28:36

We love to hear from our listeners. So do send us

28:38

a message at podcast at politico.eu

28:41

with ideas for guests or topics. And

28:43

remember to

28:44

follow us on your favorite app. Thank

28:46

you this week to our executive producer for audio

28:49

in Berlin, Christina Gonzalez, and

28:51

to Dionna Sturrus, our senior audio

28:53

producer here in Brussels. See you next

28:55

week.

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