0:00

Studies show that

0:00

meaningful activities are

0:03

incredibly good for you;

0:03

strengthening your personal

0:06

relationships, enhancing

0:06

physical and emotional health,

0:10

boosting resilience and

0:10

compelling you to live longer.

0:14

I'm Kim Forrester. You're

0:14

listening to the Eudaemonia

0:17

podcast and, today, we're going

0:17

to see beyond the physical, rise

0:21

above the intellectual, and

0:21

reimagine a life full of

0:25

meaning.

0:27

Welcome to Eudaemonia,

0:27

the podcast that is all about

0:31

flourishing. Plug in, relax and

0:31

get ready for the goodness as we

0:36

explore the traits and practices

0:36

that can help you thrive in life

0:40

... with your host Kim

0:40

Forrester.

0:47

Rabbi Simon

0:47

Jacobson is the author of the

0:50

best selling book, Toward a

0:50

Meaningful Life, and he is

0:54

Founding Dean of the Meaningful

0:54

Life Center. Rabbi Jacobson is

0:58

considered one of the greatest

0:58

scholars and most sought-after

1:01

speakers in the Jewish world,

1:01

yet his message is for all

1:05

people. It's my honour to be

1:05

connecting with Rabbi Jacobson

1:09

today to explore the concept of

1:09

a meaningful life, and to learn

1:13

why nourishment of the soul is

1:13

vital if we want a flourishing

1:17

life, and a thriving society.

1:17

Rabbi Simon Jacobson, it is just

1:23

wonderful to have you here on

1:23

the Eudaemonia podcast. How are

1:26

you today?

1:27

I'm very well.

1:27

And it's a pleasure to be with

1:30

you and an honour. I commend you

1:30

for using technology to reach

1:35

the world, especially in these

1:35

trying times.

1:38

Rabbi, you begin

1:38

your book by discussing the duel

1:42

nature of human existence.

1:42

Right? You talk about the body,

1:46

and the soul. And I love the way

1:46

that you define this idea of the

1:52

soul. You explain in your book,

1:52

that the words in a book are

1:56

like the body, but the ideas

1:56

behind those words is like the

2:02

soul. Why is an appreciation of

2:02

soul of - of human essence, or a

2:08

spiritual self - why does that

2:08

matter when we talk about living

2:14

a life of meaning?

2:16

Because, at the

2:16

end of the day, especially in

2:19

today's very highly

2:19

materialistic world, when we

2:22

focus on the superficial and on

2:22

the surface level, we are just

2:27

really not maximising the

2:27

potential that each of us is

2:30

capable of. Today, we understand

2:30

that everything contains energy,

2:35

whether it's the DNA in our

2:35

beings, or it's the microscopic,

2:40

subatomic particles in the

2:40

physical world. And as long as

2:46

you live on that surface level,

2:46

you really cannot live a

2:50

meaningful life or, as I call

2:50

it, a transcendent life. That's

2:53

not just one of survival and

2:53

existence, but one of deeper

2:56

purpose and fulfilment, and

2:56

passion and excitement. And yes,

3:03

meaning. That sense like a

3:03

mission statement. It's simply

3:06

not possible without digging

3:06

beneath the surface of the body

3:10

and entering into the domain of

3:10

the transcendent soul.

3:13

Now you do write

3:13

that our bodies are more

3:16

nourished than they have ever

3:16

been in human history. Right? We

3:20

have an excellent standard of

3:20

living, we live longer, we have

3:24

great technology, as you have

3:24

pointed out. And yet you say, we

3:29

are starving for meaning and

3:29

spiritual nourishment because

3:34

we're using the wrong tools to

3:34

find meaning, to seek meaning,

3:39

to create meaning in our lives.

3:39

How are we misguided and what

3:44

would you encourage as a more

3:44

effective tool for finding

3:48

meaning in our daily lives?

3:50

Ah, the million

3:50

dollar question, and it really

3:54

comes down to this - I think

3:54

that our homes and our education

3:57

systems have to be overhauled,

3:57

if I may. They focus so much on

4:03

efficiency. Our children are

4:03

taught as being efficient;

4:06

learning mathematics, the

4:06

physical sciences, and less

4:10

about so-called 'themselves' and

4:10

their deeper purpose in life. So

4:15

you focus on the means instead

4:15

of on the end. You ask most

4:19

young men and women - and for

4:19

that matter, older men and women

4:22

- like, what's the hub, what's

4:22

the centre of your life? Who are

4:25

you? And many people will give

4:25

you their business card, when in

4:29

fact, your business card just

4:29

reflects what you do, not who

4:32

you are. So that ultra-focus on

4:32

getting results, making money,

4:38

influence, building equity in

4:38

your life really distracts us

4:43

from the core or the heartbeat,

4:43

I would say the heartbeat, of

4:46

who we are. And that is love,

4:46

relationships, soul, spirit. And

4:51

you see this. People are

4:51

overwhelmed at work. Obviously

4:54

the first casualty is going to

4:54

be their relationships; is going

4:57

to be their intimacy. It's going

4:57

to be the love that they give or

5:01

receive, because the material

5:01

world tends to distract us. And

5:06

you can get off on a type of

5:06

instant gratification and forget

5:09

about the hunger and that thirst

5:09

within yourself, which is really

5:13

for some deeper purpose;

5:13

something more permanent than

5:17

just the impermanent things of

5:17

our lives.

5:20

I can absolutely

5:20

see that meaning and purpose

5:23

have everything to do with who

5:23

we are being, and not

5:28

necessarily anything to do with

5:28

what we're doing. But are there

5:33

cases where what we are doing is

5:33

meaningful? And let me frame it

5:38

this way - can there be meaning

5:38

in more superficial, more

5:42

physical pursuits? Can seeking

5:42

fame, or seeking money, or

5:48

seeking ultimate beauty be

5:48

meaningful if it feels

5:53

purposeful for a specific

5:53

individual?

5:57

That's a very

5:57

good question. An excellent

5:59

question. As a matter of fact,

5:59

since you're quoting my book.

6:01

Toward a Meaningful Life, that's

6:01

exactly what I did. Every

6:04

chapter of that book goes

6:04

through the spectrum of our

6:08

lives. You'll see there's a

6:08

chapter on education, there's a

6:11

chapter on work, there's a

6:11

chapter on health, there's a

6:14

chapter on money. Every aspect

6:14

of our lives can be

6:18

spiritualized. So in other

6:18

words, the mundane activities -

6:22

even a simple meal, or a simple

6:22

walk, even those superficial

6:26

things - if you infuse it with

6:26

purpose. Simply put, you're

6:31

eating a meal - you can either

6:31

indulge in it and just satisfy

6:34

your own needs, or you can say

6:34

to yourself, "You know, the

6:37

strength I gain, the nourishment

6:37

I gain, I will use that strength

6:41

to help do a favour to another.

6:41

I will share a kind word." And

6:45

we have that option, literally

6:45

24-seven, every moment of our

6:49

lives. Are you just going to

6:49

live a self-egocentric,

6:53

self-interest driven life? Or

6:53

are you going to live a life

6:56

where you use your activities

6:56

for some deeper purpose or some

7:01

greater good? Or some kindness?

7:01

So the answer is

7:04

straightforward. To put it in a

7:04

more mystical terms, there's a

7:08

fundamental tension between

7:08

matter and spirit; between

7:11

matter and energy. And the only

7:11

way to relieve that tension is

7:15

to direct matter towards

7:15

spiritual ends. That's what I

7:19

find is so powerful, because

7:19

what it is, is really about

7:23

essentially elevating and

7:23

transforming our daily simple

7:27

activities. Well, another way of

7:27

putting it - making the ordinary

7:30

extraordinary.

7:32

Now you just

7:32

touched on this in your last

7:35

answer there, and I absolutely

7:35

love this idea that perhaps the

7:39

concept behind meaning is to

7:39

live more mindfully; to live

7:44

more consciously. To understand

7:44

that we are a single thread in

7:51

the tapestry of life and so,

7:51

everything we do has

7:55

consequences. Right? It has

7:55

repercussions. And therefore,

7:59

everything we do has meaning. Do

7:59

you feel being more mindful,

8:05

more conscious, in the way we

8:05

walk through the world makes a

8:10

difference to how meaningful we

8:10

find our lives to be?

8:15

Absolutely.

8:15

Kierkegaard put it this way. He

8:17

says, "We can only understand

8:17

our lives backwards, but we have

8:21

to live our lives frontwards."

8:21

And I like to put it this way -

8:25

your life is really more of a

8:25

book than a line. And that a

8:30

book, a narrative, has many

8:30

chapters and has many different

8:33

twists and turns in the plot.

8:33

But we often get stuck on the

8:37

moment, whether it's a moment of

8:37

joy, or it's a moment of pain.

8:41

And if you see your life like a

8:41

journey, which it truly is, it's

8:45

a journey that's going to have

8:45

many different twists and turns,

8:48

many unknowns. Many curveballs

8:48

may come our way. And

8:52

understanding there's a bigger

8:52

picture and that every step of

8:56

the way is one frame of the

8:56

story, or one chapter of the

8:59

story, helps you realise that

8:59

everything is going elsewhere,

9:03

and it's building a bigger

9:03

picture. And that really helps

9:06

us get through the more

9:06

difficult times, and also puts

9:09

things into context and

9:09

perspective when you see things

9:12

like the bigger picture in

9:12

forming the smaller picture. But

9:15

often people get very immersed

9:15

and inundated with a moment. And

9:20

they forget that their story

9:20

continues on; the narrative

9:23

continues to flow. It's like

9:23

watching a movie and just

9:26

leaving in the middle of the

9:26

film and not letting it play

9:28

itself out and see the entire

9:28

story.

9:32

That is so

9:32

powerful, Rabbi, particularly in

9:36

our very modern

9:36

instant-gratification world.

9:39

What you're saying there is that

9:39

there is meaning in this moment

9:46

- we just may not know what that

9:46

is right now. We have to allow

9:51

the story to unfold and the

9:51

meaning and the purpose will

9:56

emerge over time.

9:57

Absolutely. Look, in this highly technological world, Kim, what

9:59

has happened is we become

10:02

spoiled in a way, where we're so

10:02

accustomed to that sense of

10:06

entitlement - that I can press a

10:06

button and get something

10:09

delivered at my door in moments

10:09

- this type of instantaneous

10:12

gratification, that we have

10:12

somewhat lost the appreciation

10:16

that things take time to emerge.

10:16

There's a process. You can't

10:20

pull a flower out of the ground

10:20

that has to grow. You need to

10:24

nurture it. And respecting the

10:24

process is a tremendous gift.

10:29

And understanding your life

10:29

properly. Instead of, "Oh, if I

10:32

can't get it right now, I'm

10:32

frustrated." No, such things

10:35

take time. Love takes time.

10:35

Trust takes time. Everything

10:39

that's real in life, you'll see

10:39

is always a process and emerges.

10:43

It's not something you can

10:43

force, and it's not something

10:45

you can purchase.

10:47

Rabbi, let's go

10:47

back briefly to that idea of

10:50

body and soul, and the tension

10:50

between the two, and the

10:54

interaction between the two. I

10:54

think it could be very easy to

11:00

intellectualise the concept of

11:00

what is meaningful for us. And I

11:04

think that many of us have to

11:04

resist the tendency to think,

11:08

"Well, you know, this should

11:08

feel meaningful. This ticks all

11:12

the right boxes". Or I think we

11:12

need to resist the urge to

11:16

pursue activities that others

11:16

tell us are meaningful. How can

11:22

we tell when something is truly

11:22

meaningful for us, as an

11:26

individual? And, in particular,

11:26

Rabbi, how does our body respond

11:31

when our soul is being nurtured?

11:34

I love the word

11:34

'resonance'. I think resonance

11:37

is a very powerful word. It's

11:37

like when you hear a song, no

11:41

one needs to tell you that the

11:41

song is touching you. You don't

11:43

need proof, you don't need

11:43

documentation, you don't need

11:46

the laboratory tests. It just

11:46

resonates with you. And you

11:51

either dance with the beat or

11:51

you sing along. You get

11:54

transported to another time and

11:54

place. So I think the first way

11:58

to recognise that something is

11:58

truly true, is when you see it

12:01

resonating within you. It's

12:01

almost like hearing something

12:04

you always knew was there, but

12:04

you couldn't quite articulate.

12:07

And I think a second thing is,

12:07

there's a line that I really

12:10

love that I don't know who

12:10

coined it, but that people don't

12:14

care how much you know, until

12:14

they know how much you care. We

12:18

respond when people care. It may

12:18

not even be brilliant and

12:22

philosophical. But there's

12:22

something about that - empathy.

12:26

And I think empathy also is

12:26

another resonating element. Now,

12:29

obviously, there are predators

12:29

out there, and manipulators and

12:32

con artists that can take

12:32

advantage, so you need to have

12:35

your wits about you and make

12:35

sure that you don't allow

12:39

yourself to be hurt by someone.

12:39

But very often, you can

12:42

recognise this type of

12:42

resonating truth. And that's how

12:46

you really learn to navigate. My

12:46

point is that resonance also

12:50

comes when you feel that there's

12:50

a certain strength, or faculty,

12:55

or capacity you have that maybe

12:55

has not been appreciated. And

12:59

when you hear someone encourage

12:59

you - sing your song, express

13:04

your voice - that too is a very

13:04

powerful type of reinforcement,

13:10

that should also help your soul

13:10

speak. And your body will feel

13:14

comfortable, because there's a

13:14

there's a certain seamlessness

13:17

that comes into play. But the

13:17

opposite is also true when you

13:21

suddenly feel yourself doing

13:21

things, or saying things, or

13:24

acting in ways that go against

13:24

the grain of your nature. And

13:28

often what's happening is you're

13:28

just mimicking herd mentality -

13:32

conformity and all the other

13:32

forces that really, essentially

13:36

submerge your soul. And your

13:36

soul goes into hiding, because

13:39

it's not the real you that's

13:39

speaking and not the real you

13:42

that's communicating.

13:43

That word

13:43

'resonance'. What an exquisite

13:47

word, Rabbi, and I do feel that

13:47

maybe we should all use it five

13:51

times in a sentence in the

13:51

coming week. Right? And seek it

13:53

out in our lives. I just love

13:53

it. As you were saying, your

13:59

book, it is just delightful. And

13:59

it takes us through all the

14:03

phases of our lives and the ways

14:03

in which we can imbue meaning

14:07

into each of those phases. But

14:07

throughout the whole book, I

14:11

noticed three recurring themes -

14:11

curiosity, humility, and an

14:18

appreciation of our own

14:18

potential as human beings. What

14:23

role do these three concepts

14:23

play in a more meaningful life?

14:28

Well, the common

14:28

denominator among all three is

14:31

that it's not about focusing on

14:31

you, but on something beyond

14:35

yourself. Curious of something

14:35

that's outside of you. The

14:38

humility, the ability to listen

14:38

the ability to absorb. We often

14:43

get so consumed with my opinion,

14:43

my feelings, that we forget that

14:48

the single most important thing

14:48

in life is being able to listen

14:51

to another being able to hear a

14:51

deeper truth. And when you are

14:56

very consumed with your own

14:56

turbulence with your own life,

14:59

you really sometimes lose sight

14:59

... it's like you can't hear the

15:02

subtle hum of the beautiful

15:02

violin due to the loud noises

15:07

all around you. So it's really

15:07

about opening yourself up; a

15:11

type of getting your self

15:11

interest out of the way and

15:14

allowing yourself to experience

15:14

something beyond you, which of

15:17

course, is also the essence of

15:17

love. Truly loving another - not

15:21

selfish love - is really putting

15:21

your needs aside and being able

15:25

to experience another, listening

15:25

to another perspective, opening

15:29

yourself up to new horizons and

15:29

new possibilities getting out of

15:32

your comfort zone. Growth comes

15:32

when you open yourself up to

15:36

other experiences beyond

15:36

yourself. That's how I see those

15:40

three items. Yeah.

15:42

That's awesome,

15:42

Rabbi. Now, as children, we see

15:46

ourselves as the centre of the

15:46

universe, right? It's what helps

15:50

us survive. And seeing ourselves

15:50

as the centre of the universe

15:54

convinces us that we have

15:54

meaning. Do you feel that we

16:00

lose the certainty and our

16:00

significance as we grow older?

16:04

Do you feel that we lose a sense

16:04

of worthiness as we grow older?

16:09

And, if so, is there a way for

16:09

us to reclaim significance and

16:14

worthiness in our adulthood

16:14

without it coming across as

16:19

being self-centred or arrogant?

16:21

Well, the answer

16:21

is, to both questions,

16:23

absolutely, yes. I believe we

16:23

lose our sense of individuality

16:28

and significance - and I would

16:28

even use another word,

16:32

indispensability - due to the

16:32

fact that the people around us

16:36

make demands of us. Whether it's

16:36

our parents or educators,

16:39

society, the media, they start

16:39

creating a template that they

16:43

expect us to live up to. And

16:43

there's a certain subtle, or

16:47

sometimes not so subtle

16:47

pressure, to be something that

16:50

you may yourself not resonate

16:50

with you. So, like, if you come

16:54

home, and you're really excited

16:54

about something and your parents

16:56

smirk or they dismiss it. So as

16:56

a child, you begin to suppress

17:02

your natural reaction because

17:02

you want to make them happy. And

17:05

this happens on an ongoing

17:05

basis. What essentially happens

17:08

is, you start losing confidence

17:08

in your own instincts, your own

17:11

self confidence. You start

17:11

trying to be someone else, that

17:14

you really are not. Trying to

17:14

satisfy someone, you become a

17:17

pleaser. You become a

17:17

conformist. You don't follow

17:22

your voice. Healthy parents, of

17:22

course, we'll have a

17:25

combination. There's nothing

17:25

wrong with having good

17:27

expectations. But you also want

17:27

the child to own to own it. You

17:33

don't want to be pressured, that

17:33

they feel the only way they'll

17:35

be liked or the only way they'll

17:35

be valued is if they serve

17:39

someone else. How many of us,

17:39

for example, a measure our

17:42

value, our self-worth is defined

17:42

by our net worth, or by our

17:46

looks, or by other superficial

17:46

things. So it's good to look

17:49

good. And may God bless everyone

17:49

to be wealthy. But if your

17:52

identity is defined by these

17:52

externals, then what happens is

17:57

you start losing sight of who

17:57

you truly are. And the way to

17:59

reclaim it, Kim, is by

17:59

reconnecting again to yourself.

18:04

It doesn't matter how old you

18:04

are, and it takes courage. It

18:07

takes effort, because once

18:07

you're used to doing things that

18:11

others want of you, you

18:11

sometimes are afraid to try

18:14

something new because you may be

18:14

criticised; you may fail. But

18:18

anytime in any part of our

18:18

lives, all of us are fully

18:20

capable of reclaiming that inner

18:20

voice that we own.

18:27

You make another

18:27

observation about childhood that

18:30

I absolutely love. You say that

18:30

children are naturally fidgety,

18:34

and as a mother of two very

18:34

dynamic children, they they're

18:36

adults now, but I totally

18:36

understand the restlessness of

18:41

childhood. You of course, say

18:41

that it's a sign of vitality and

18:46

spiritual restlessness. Is the

18:46

same true in adulthood, Rabbi?

18:51

Can it be that a sense of

18:51

restlessness in us is a sign

18:56

that we're craving more meaning

18:56

in our lives?

18:59

Yes, yes, yes,

18:59

indeed. I use the analogy in the

19:04

chapter on body and soul, that

19:04

the soul is like a flame. A

19:07

flame. Look at a flame. A flame

19:07

is never in one position. It's

19:11

never stationary. So it's

19:11

flickering. It's always

19:14

restless. It's actually a

19:14

healthy sign of the human being,

19:18

that we are restless creatures.

19:18

And I say restless. I'm not

19:21

discussing necessarily anxiety.

19:21

Let me give you an example. I

19:25

remember giving a class and

19:25

there was a cardiologist who I

19:29

know well. Has a very difficult

19:29

life. And he came over to me and

19:32

said, "Rabbi Jacobson, can you

19:32

give me a blessing that I should

19:35

have one day of peace?" He had

19:35

issues with the spouse, with his

19:38

family, with health, many, many

19:38

different issues. And so, you

19:43

know, in a humorous way, I

19:43

respond. I said to him, "One day

19:46

of peace. You mean like a

19:46

flatline?" And he said, "No, no,

19:49

no, no, no flatline!" As a

19:49

cardiologist it's ... all of us

19:53

know, if you look at a

19:53

cardiogram, the healthy heart is

19:57

a heartbeat. It looks like a

19:57

wave. It's not flat. You don't

20:00

want anything flat. You want it

20:00

to be a wave with its peaks, and

20:04

there's valleys, but there's

20:04

balance. High states of anxiety

20:07

is when you have high peaks, and

20:07

you don't have a proportionate

20:11

resolution. We need healthy

20:11

tension and resolution in our

20:15

lives all the time, where you

20:15

feel a certain healthy angst

20:18

that motivates you to grow, and

20:18

then you internalise it, and

20:22

resolve it. And then you grow

20:22

again. It's like climbing a

20:24

ladder. So, whether a child or

20:24

adult ... children have this

20:28

naturally, until it's,

20:28

unfortunately, beat out of them

20:32

at times. But adults as well. If

20:32

you feeling restless, you should

20:37

thank God, because it means that

20:37

there's a voice in you that has

20:40

not been killed. There's

20:40

something in you that saying, is

20:42

beckoning you, do something,

20:42

reach out. And that restlessness

20:47

is really a reflection of a

20:47

soul, a soul's hunger, seeking

20:52

some deeper meaning, some deeper

20:52

purpose. And that's how we

20:55

should see restlessness. It's

20:55

really the most healthy part of

20:58

our beings. People think

20:58

restlessness is a bad thing.

21:01

It's not. I understand anxiety

21:01

is when the restlessness spills

21:06

over and becomes something that

21:06

controls and can disturb your

21:09

life. But healthy restlessness

21:09

is really the motivation for all

21:13

our growth, for all our

21:13

achievements and

21:15

accomplishments.

21:17

You're also very

21:17

clear in your book that you see

21:20

disruption, and rebelliousness,

21:20

and a pushing back against the

21:25

constructs of society as being

21:25

really powerful tools when it

21:31

comes to finding meaning. I

21:31

think that many adults would

21:35

consider, sort of, acting out

21:35

and speaking up as something

21:38

that's disruptive and unwelcome.

21:38

You know, they'd prefer to just

21:41

sort of keep the pace and obey

21:41

all the rules. But you say that

21:45

rebellious energy can be very

21:45

meaningful and very powerful in

21:49

our lives. Why is it important

21:49

for us to harness anger,

21:54

discontent, and that sort of

21:54

very teenage like rebellious

21:59

intent, and funnel all that

21:59

energy and really meaningful and

22:04

constructive ways?

22:06

Every form of

22:06

growth, to put it in the words

22:09

of the mystics, everything needs

22:09

to go through a vacuum. You need

22:12

to go through the awkwardness of

22:12

adolescence to grow from a child

22:15

into an adult. The egg needs to

22:15

crack for a chick to come out. A

22:20

mother goes through birth pains

22:20

to give birth to new, beautiful

22:23

child. Creativity is a child of

22:23

frustration. Wherever you see

22:28

any significant growth, wherever

22:28

you see any paradigm shift, it

22:32

will always be preceded by some

22:32

type of disruption and

22:35

discomfort. Because as long as

22:35

you're continuing the old,

22:39

you're not going to get

22:39

something new. You'll just have

22:41

more of the same. So any

22:41

breakthrough has to come with

22:45

some type of meltdown, like

22:45

shedding one layer of skin to

22:48

assume a new layer of skin. And

22:48

there's simply nothing in life

22:51

that doesn't work that way. We

22:51

need to just see it through. The

22:55

problem is that people don't

22:55

want discomfort. And instead of

22:58

recognising - like we discussed

22:58

earlier - the narrative as a

23:01

story, it's not just the crack

23:01

in your life, it's the crack

23:05

that lets the light in, as

23:05

Leonard Cohen sings. And the

23:08

crack therefore, is a step

23:08

toward growth. And any type of

23:12

... it's like, the first time a

23:12

child goes to school, the child

23:14

will cry, goes to camp, summer

23:14

camp, they leave home - when we

23:19

leave, when we grow up - there's

23:19

always going to be some pain of

23:21

separation. But that separation

23:21

leads to greater growth. And I

23:25

think we are opting for the more

23:25

comfortable approach, and rather

23:29

have the comfort than the

23:29

growth. Which of course is sad,

23:32

because we have so much great

23:32

potential. But it never will

23:34

come on its own; it will always

23:34

requires some leap, some

23:38

discomfort. And discovery, by

23:38

definition, means you're moving

23:42

from one paradigm to a better one.

23:44

Now, Rabbi, I think for most people, the concept of meaning is entwined

23:46

with the idea of a career or a

23:51

vocation. You write that work is

23:51

not just about paying the bills,

23:55

or accumulating our wants and

23:55

our needs. You say it underpins

24:00

what it means to be human. It's

24:00

all about contribution. How

24:05

important is it, that we pursue

24:05

meaningful work, meaningful

24:10

careers, meaningful

24:10

contribution? And - you did

24:14

touch on this earlier in the

24:14

interview - if it's simply not

24:17

possible for us to engage in

24:17

what we think or feel is

24:21

meaningful work, are there ways

24:21

we can find meaning in what ever

24:26

work we are engaging in?

24:29

Yes, well, like

24:29

anything in life, we talk about

24:32

body and soul. We need the

24:32

fusion of these two forces

24:36

because we live in bodies, but

24:36

we're essentially souls; are

24:40

essentially transcendent

24:40

creatures. And therefore, we

24:43

need to find ways to fuse the

24:43

two. You can't just live on the

24:47

spiritual level because we live

24:47

in a physical world, and living

24:51

on the level of survival and

24:51

existence is just not

24:54

satisfying. We get bored, it's

24:54

monotonous and it can lead to

24:58

all types of other troubles. So

24:58

talking about work has those two

25:02

elements as well. If work simply

25:02

becomes a monotonous, tedious

25:08

effort, which you're only

25:08

enjoying because you need to

25:10

have your paycheck, you're going

25:10

to, at some point, it's going to

25:13

catch up with you. But, however,

25:13

if whatever work you're doing -

25:16

it can be menial labour, it can

25:16

be something very noble - you

25:21

can always use it for some

25:21

greater good. You can teach

25:25

others, for example, some of the

25:25

expertise you've learned through

25:28

your job. The interactions you

25:28

have with co workers or with

25:31

employees and employers, you can

25:31

always add some type of

25:35

compassion, something kind. You

25:35

may not be required by your job

25:39

but why not be a nice person?

25:39

You're really doing that work.

25:43

The particular work you do can

25:43

teach you deeper lessons about

25:46

human psychology, human nature,

25:46

the human condition. But you

25:51

need to be conscientious. You

25:51

can't just go into automatic

25:55

pilot and be, like, mindless. If

25:55

you allow yourself to think

25:59

about it and concentrate, any

25:59

type of work - literally, I mean

26:02

that across the board - can be

26:02

somewhat elevated to a higher

26:07

state.

26:08

Yeah, I guess the

26:08

question we can ask ourselves if

26:10

we feel that we're doing

26:10

meaningless work, is "How is

26:14

this contributing to society?

26:14

How am I being of service to

26:19

others? How is this job enabling

26:19

me to perform a service that is

26:24

more transcendent?" Would that

26:24

be right?

26:27

Yeah, absolutely. Let's take an example. Let's find an example

26:29

of meaningless work. Anything

26:33

comes to mind, Kim?

26:34

Um, emptying the

26:34

rubbish bins. Collecting the

26:37

garbage cans.

26:38

I was thinking

26:38

the same thing. I see we think

26:40

alike. Okay, so that may sound

26:40

like, okay, you know, it's a

26:44

really, very ... it's almost an

26:44

embarrassing job, because you're

26:47

cleaning, throwing out other

26:47

people's garbage. So first of

26:50

all, let's look at the human

26:50

body. The human body - it's just

26:53

as important that we digest the

26:53

nutrients, it's also important

26:56

that we dispel the waste. So the

26:56

concept of dispelling waste, per

27:00

se, is also a lesson in life.

27:00

That we dispel the waste in

27:03

order to be able to focus on the

27:03

positive things. So number one,

27:06

anyone doing that job, even

27:06

though it may not be a ... some

27:10

may say, "I'm not proud of that

27:10

work", but that work is part of

27:13

human nature, as well. The

27:13

nature of existence is always

27:16

looking to clean out any wastes

27:16

or any extras that need to be

27:20

dispelled. So that's just one

27:20

example. Number two, you have

27:23

coworkers, you have people you

27:23

work with. What is your

27:26

attitude? What is your

27:26

demeanour? So the fact is that

27:29

you're in that position, you can

27:29

help other people. You never

27:32

know. You say something kind.

27:32

You could just be angry about

27:35

your job and just be bitter and

27:35

frustrated, and go to work with

27:39

this sour face, and, obviously,

27:39

it's going to have an effect as

27:43

well. Or you can have a very

27:43

positive attitude. So there's

27:46

always reasons to find,

27:46

especially if you know that you

27:50

were sent to this Earth to

27:50

achieve some greater purpose.

27:53

Even throwing other's rubbish, I

27:53

have to say, has purpose. Would

27:56

I prefer that work. No,

27:56

obviously, I would prefer not

27:59

doing it. But as if I ended up

27:59

being there, that position,

28:03

because whatever the reason was,

28:03

I would have to find deeper

28:07

meaning. And that's the way it

28:07

is. You never know why you're

28:10

there. And anything that you're

28:10

doing could always be some type

28:13

of way can be redeemed.

28:15

One of the gifts

28:15

of 2020, I believe, for people

28:18

all over the world, is the

28:18

appreciation, the recognition of

28:23

how meaningful these small jobs

28:23

are. I think we've come to see,

28:28

many of us around the world,

28:28

that there are people out there

28:31

in society who are doing almost

28:31

invisible jobs. And those jobs

28:37

are so meaningful for us as a

28:37

society. So I love your answer

28:42

there. At the end of your book,

28:42

Rabbi, you discussed the concept

28:47

of retirement and I was

28:47

absolutely delighted that you

28:51

raised this particular topic. It

28:51

seems to me that most of us have

28:56

bought into the idea that we

28:56

toil now, right, we do these

29:00

superficial tasks now, so that

29:00

we can have a meaningful life at

29:05

the end of our career or

29:05

contribution. The fact is,

29:10

though, that many retirees end

29:10

up depressed, disillusioned and

29:14

in despair. How can we approach

29:14

the concept of retirement in a

29:20

way that is healthier for us,

29:20

and that enables us to find

29:24

meaning at every age and every

29:24

stage of life?

29:28

As I write in my

29:28

book, retirement and the elderly

29:31

are actually under-appreciated,

29:31

because even though they may be

29:34

physically weaker than they were

29:34

when they were younger, but

29:38

their minds and their experience

29:38

is tremendous. Society is

29:42

actually losing out and throwing

29:42

out a tremendous resource that

29:46

we've called experience. So the

29:46

first thing is, you need to know

29:50

within yourself that you are

29:50

absolutely valuable. Every

29:54

moment you are here on Earth -

29:54

doesn't matter whether you feel

29:56

weak or old and cannot lift as

29:56

many weights as you were able to

30:00

lift when you were 30 years old

30:00

- you still have tremendous

30:04

value to be given to this world.

30:04

And you have to recognise that.

30:08

The society would do itself a

30:08

service if it recognised that as

30:12

well. As a matter of fact, the

30:12

very word retirement - think

30:15

about it, Kim - the word itself

30:15

says I'm retiring from life.

30:18

I'm, like, giving up. Almost

30:18

fatalism. Where that's not the

30:21

case at all. I mean, at the end

30:21

of the day, even if society

30:25

doesn't appreciate you, I'm

30:25

saying this to any elderly

30:27

person, you need to realise your

30:27

soul does not age, it only gets

30:32

more vibrant.

30:33

Let's sort of

30:33

flip that around a little bit

30:36

and talk about younger people

30:36

who sort of feel, 'Well,

30:40

retirement's a long way away.

30:40

So, you know, I'm just going to

30:43

do what's required now,

30:43

meaningful or not.' In your

30:47

book, you encourage us to

30:47

understand that we can imbue our

30:50

lives with meaning, now. Do you

30:50

feel that if we are careful and

30:58

more considerate of what is

30:58

meaningful for us when we are

31:02

younger, will we get to

31:02

retirement more attuned to what

31:08

is meaningful and purposeful in

31:08

our lives?

31:11

No doubt, no

31:11

doubt. I'll take it even a step

31:14

further. I believe that the

31:14

obligation of parents and

31:18

educators - from the youngest

31:18

stage, not just the teenagers or

31:22

young adults, but even from

31:22

young childhood - to cultivate

31:26

the spirit within us. It's more

31:26

important than even nourishing

31:30

the body. Obviously, we need to

31:30

take care of our health, and eat

31:33

and drink and exercise well, but

31:33

the spirit means infusing your

31:39

child, infusing your teenager,

31:39

infusing anyone, with that type

31:44

of sense you're here for a

31:44

reason. You were sent to this

31:47

world to have an indispensable

31:47

mission to fulfil. I will do

31:51

everything possible as your

31:51

parent or educator to help you

31:55

actualize that voice, that song

31:55

that you need to sing. And when

31:59

you are able to introduce and

31:59

infuse your life with that level

32:04

of spirit, that will enrich

32:04

every stage of your life. And

32:07

absolutely, when you reach older

32:07

age, when you have that type of

32:11

attitude for years and years, so

32:11

then it's just a matter of

32:15

another transition where you

32:15

say, "Okay, so now how do I

32:18

experience my spiritual side as

32:18

I age?" So really, there's no

32:23

question spiritualizing your

32:23

life at any stage will

32:26

infinitely enhance every stage

32:26

every aspect of your life.

32:30

Rabbi, my final

32:30

question is one that I asked

32:33

every guest on the Eudaemonia

32:33

podcast. Can you perhaps share a

32:37

morning reminder - this may be a

32:37

practice, a mantra, maybe an

32:41

affirmation - something that can

32:41

help my listeners infuse their

32:45

daily lives with a little more

32:45

meaning?

32:49

How do you like this, Kim? I was going to suggest that even had you not

32:50

asked me. I always like to

32:54

conclude with that as well. So I

32:54

see our minds think alike. Yes,

32:59

it's very straightforward. It's

32:59

a several-thousand-year

33:02

tradition that comes from two

33:02

sources, but it's very

33:05

universal. And it's beautiful.

33:05

And as soon as you wake, before

33:09

you do anything else, before you

33:09

press the snooze button, before

33:13

you jump out of bed, before you

33:13

do anything, here's the mantra,

33:17

here's the thought, say out loud

33:17

or in your mind. "Thank you for

33:22

returning my life to me."

33:22

Basically acknowledgement,

33:26

gratitude. You have a new day,

33:26

new opportunities, new

33:30

possibilities. Thank you for

33:30

making me indispensable, thank

33:33

you for giving me a soul that

33:33

has much to give to others,

33:39

illuminating warming other

33:39

people. You begin every day with

33:43

that focused message, I assure

33:43

you that it will spill over to

33:47

the rest of your day. You'll

33:47

want more such moments. It's

33:50

setting the tone for a new day.

33:50

And with that, you go into the

33:54

day saying, "Okay, so how can I

33:54

now express my soul and

33:57

everything I do?" We spoke about

33:57

work. We spoke about social

34:01

interactions, whatever age in

34:01

life you are. So you're

34:06

beginning that day ... and do it

34:06

consistently every day, and I

34:09

assure you because I've seen

34:09

this from experience, it will

34:11

transform your life.

34:14

"Thank you for

34:14

returning my life to me." That

34:17

is absolutely beautiful, Rabbi.

34:17

Rabbi Simon Jacobson, it has

34:23

just been such an honour to have

34:23

you here on the show. If my

34:27

listeners want to learn more

34:27

about your bestselling book,

34:29

Toward a Meaningful Life, and

34:29

you also have the Meaningful

34:32

Life Center, how can people find

34:32

out more about you?

34:37

Exactly by that name. Go to www.meaningfullife.com - that's

34:38

my website. There you'll find a

34:43

full array of materials,

34:43

including my book, Toward a

34:45

Meaningful Life, but also

34:45

programmes that I really update

34:49

on a daily basis, that address

34:49

really the entire spectrum of

34:53

life. And no matter what age you

34:53

are, no matter what background,

34:56

it's a very universal and

34:56

beautiful site. And I invite to

35:00

come visit there and please drop

35:00

me a note. I'm accessible. I

35:04

would love to hear from any one

35:04

of you. And it's really been a

35:08

real honour, Kim, to be able to

35:08

communicate. There's nothing

35:12

greater than the dignity of

35:12

intersecting souls that

35:15

cross-pollinate.

35:17

Well, I feel

35:17

truly inspired. My body is

35:20

resonant at the moment, Rabbi.

35:20

So, thank you so much for

35:25

choosing to be a part of the

35:25

Eudaemonia podcast today.

35:29

A pleasure and honour, greatly.

35:31

According to the

35:31

American author and attorney,

35:34

Kilroy J. Oldster, "We create a

35:34

meaningful life by what we

35:38

accept as true, and by what we

35:38

create, and the pursuit of

35:42

truth, love, beauty, and

35:42

adoration of nature." You've

35:47

been listening to the Eudaemonia

35:47

podcast. If you'd like to learn

35:51

more about how to live a truly

35:51

flourishing life, please

35:54

subscribe and check out

35:54

www.eudaemoniapod.com for more

35:58

inspiring episodes. I'm Kim

35:58

Forrester. Until next time, be

36:02

well, be kind to yourself, and

36:02

follow what feels most

36:07

meaningful.