0:00

We all understand

0:00

what it takes to be rich,

0:03

affluent, well off. But how can

0:03

we go beyond financial abundance

0:10

and also enhance our emotional,

0:10

social, and spiritual wealth?

0:17

You're listening to the

0:17

Eudaemonia podcast. I'm Kim

0:20

Forrester, and today we're going

0:20

to explore the vital importance

0:24

of prosperity.

0:27

Welcome to Eudaemonia,

0:27

the podcast that is all about

0:31

flourishing. Plug in, relax and

0:31

get ready for the goodness as we

0:36

explore the traits and practices

0:36

that can help you thrive in life

0:40

... with your host Kim

0:40

Forrester.

0:47

Shannon Hayes is

0:47

the chef and CEO of Sap Bush

0:51

Hollow Farm located in New York

0:51

State, USA. Since 2001, Shannon

0:57

has been a sustainable farmer,

0:57

entrepreneur, author, and cafe

1:02

owner, putting together a unique

1:02

life that has enabled her family

1:06

to live almost completely free

1:06

of the conventional economy. She

1:11

holds a PhD in sustainable

1:11

farming and community

1:15

development, and is the author

1:15

of several popular books,

1:19

including her latest title,

1:19

Redefining Rich. It's my

1:23

absolute pleasure to be chatting

1:23

with Shannon, today, to explore

1:27

what it really means to prosper

1:27

in life and to learn how we can

1:32

each make better choices to

1:32

invite true wealth into our

1:35

lives, and our world. Shannon

1:35

Hayes, welcome to the Eudaemonia

1:40

podcast, it's just a delight to

1:40

have you along.

1:43

Well, thank you so much for having me.

1:45

This topic, in

1:45

particular, I find incredibly

1:48

fascinating. Every topic that I

1:48

discuss on the Eudaemonia

1:52

podcast has social implications.

1:52

When we're happier people,

1:56

studies have shown that our

1:56

friends are happier people. When

1:59

we are kind people, we live in a

1:59

kinder environment. But I think

2:03

there are a few topics where the

2:03

personal and the social are as

2:07

integrated as prosperity. For us

2:07

truly to prosper as individuals,

2:14

we really need to pay attention

2:14

to the choices that we're making

2:19

and the societies that we are

2:19

creating around us as well. So

2:23

I'm really excited to have you

2:23

here for this discussion.

2:27

I love that you're thinking that way because, a lot of times, we tend

2:29

to be passive and wonder about

2:33

what our governments are going

2:33

to do for us and what - you know

2:36

- what other organisations are

2:36

going to do for us. And it

2:39

really is up to us as

2:39

individuals to create that more

2:42

vibrant society. So I'm really

2:42

excited to have this

2:45

conversation.

2:46

Let's start here,

2:46

because I'm a New Zealander, and

2:49

New Zealand is one of the

2:49

countries that is constantly

2:51

topping the global prosperity

2:51

index, along with the Nordic

2:56

countries and Switzerland. These

2:56

economies are tiny, and these

3:02

populations are tiny, compared

3:02

to, you know, the grand

3:07

superpowers of the world and yet

3:07

they seem to be constantly

3:12

proving themselves to be

3:12

prosperous nations. It's obvious

3:16

that economic wealth and

3:16

prosperity are two completely

3:21

different concepts. I think

3:21

we've conflated them somehow,

3:25

Shannon. How do you define

3:25

prosperity and what do you

3:30

believe we most need to

3:30

understand about true wealth?

3:34

Well, one of the

3:34

things that that you touched on

3:38

- New Zealand and a lot of these

3:38

Nordic countries are really

3:41

showing that it doesn't matter

3:41

how big your economy is, what

3:45

matters is the well being of

3:45

all. So I'm very concerned about

3:49

that issue, particularly as an

3:49

entrepreneur. But more than

3:53

that, what I've learned, and

3:53

looking toward my own prosperity

3:57

and the prosperity of my

3:57

community, I have to redefine

4:01

what wealth is. And very often,

4:01

particularly when we're looking

4:06

at GDP here in the US, we

4:06

measure it all in dollars. And

4:09

that just tells us so little

4:09

about how wealthy we truly are.

4:15

When I recognised in my own

4:15

business that, if I kept looking

4:18

at the dollar numbers, I was

4:18

always going to feel poor. And I

4:23

started reflecting one afternoon

4:23

about what I felt I was doing as

4:28

a farmer, and I saw myself as a

4:28

steward of the land - protecting

4:31

these old stone walls,

4:31

protecting these pastures,

4:34

protecting the watersheds,

4:34

giving my community food. And I

4:38

saw myself in service in all of

4:38

these different ways. And I

4:43

started to recognise my wealth

4:43

starts with enjoying what I have

4:48

here; the good food, the pure

4:48

water, the clean air, the

4:51

pastures where I can roam. And

4:51

then I started recognising that

4:57

that also can spread to time.

4:57

Then I just started getting this

5:01

more expansive view of what my

5:01

wealth is. My husband and I took

5:06

going out in the woods and by

5:06

waterfalls - we have a whole

5:09

bunch of different spots - every

5:09

single day for our morning

5:12

coffee. We go for a hike, we

5:12

take the coffee with us, and we

5:15

sit someplace else for a couple

5:15

of hours, and we shut out the

5:18

world. Because we started

5:18

recognising, that's our wealth.

5:22

Our relationship, where we love

5:22

each other, is our wealth. Happy

5:26

kids is part of the wealth.

5:26

Getting to be with my family,

5:30

three generations, every single

5:30

day is part of my wealth. Being

5:34

in a business where, daily, I'm

5:34

transacting with my neighbours,

5:39

and I'm finding out who's doing

5:39

well who needs help, that is all

5:43

part of the wealth. These

5:43

dollars that we talk about are

5:48

such a tiny, tiny part of the

5:48

wealth portfolio. They do

5:53

matter. They do help move

5:53

resources and such, and they do

5:57

stand in pretty well when a nice

5:57

old barter does not work. So it

6:01

does have a function. But it is

6:01

not as large as our GDP wants us

6:08

to believe.

6:09

There is also a

6:09

prevailing mindset that I see

6:13

out there that, in order for us

6:13

to prosper as individuals, we

6:17

must compete, Shannon. We must

6:17

compete for our wants, and our

6:21

needs, and our necessities, and

6:21

our desires. And others have to

6:26

lose, if I want to win, right?

6:26

What are your thoughts on that

6:30

particular mindset? Is it truly

6:30

possible for us to prosper

6:34

without inequality and

6:34

competition?

6:39

You know, I have

6:39

other businesses like mine

6:41

around here, and do I sometimes

6:41

want to see that I'm doing

6:47

better? Or do I sometimes go,

6:47

"Oh, they're doing better than

6:52

me"? I mean, I think we all fall

6:52

for that at some point. What

6:57

I've also recognised, however,

6:57

is that there's a point where it

7:02

serves us; where competition

7:02

inspires us to do better, or

7:06

inspires us to find new ideas

7:06

and new ways. Then that's

7:11

helpful. But the minute

7:11

competition turns us against our

7:18

fellow businesses, or our

7:18

neighbours, then that's just

7:21

toxic, and it's a waste of time.

7:21

So a little bit of competition -

7:26

"Oh, wow, they did a really good

7:26

post. Darn it, I wish I'd come

7:28

up with that. Why don't we see

7:28

if I can top them with something

7:31

a little bit more interesting."

7:31

- that's great. But the real

7:35

truth is, if the businesses I'm

7:35

competing with go out of

7:39

business, then this area starts

7:39

to suffer. So I need them there.

7:43

If other farms go out of

7:43

business, then the service

7:47

companies that support farms go

7:47

out of business as well. So I

7:51

really need them there. So

7:51

that's part of the spiritual

7:56

practice of being an

7:56

entrepreneur, I think. You can

7:59

really waste a lot of energy

7:59

worrying about what the other

8:02

person is doing. You can also

8:02

gain energy if you engage in

8:06

limited quantities, but not too

8:06

much. So I'm not a big fan of

8:10

competition. I think it is

8:10

toxic. But I do realise that

8:15

sometimes I can grow if I

8:15

participate a tiny bit in that,

8:19

and I need to grow because

8:19

that's what makes this fun.

8:22

That's awesome.

8:22

Shannon, for many of us the

8:25

COVID-19 pandemic has changed

8:25

our perspectives and our

8:30

priorities. Those of us who were

8:30

paying attention, I think, have

8:33

made real changes in the way

8:33

that we walk through the world.

8:36

If you could pinpoint two or

8:36

three 'prosperity practices'

8:42

that have sort of emerged out of

8:42

the pandemic, and that you'd

8:45

love to see continue into the

8:45

future, what would they be?

8:49

I loved seeing

8:49

how many people returned to

8:53

family. I loved seeing grown

8:53

people move back home with their

9:00

parents. And we we talked about

9:00

it in the news like it was

9:03

tragic. But how great for the

9:03

elders and how great for the

9:08

middle generations and how great

9:08

for the younger generations to

9:11

be together. I think of the

9:11

families that I saw, who were

9:15

coming to get food at that time.

9:15

I saw more grandparents with

9:19

light in their eyes because they

9:19

were living with their

9:21

grandchildren. The other

9:21

practice that I saw come out of

9:24

the pandemic that I hope we hold

9:24

on to is, I think people started

9:28

recognising that fresh air, that

9:28

place to go that's green, that

9:35

outdoors, it really matters.

9:35

It's part of our overall health

9:41

and well being and how our

9:41

community thrives. So I hope

9:47

that comes forward. And I also

9:47

think that people started to

9:51

recognise just how delicious

9:51

human contact is. I think we

9:57

were really forgetting that. And

9:57

to have that removed from us,

10:01

and to start to cherish what

10:01

contacts we could safely have,

10:06

that's really important. And

10:06

then, as people are coming out

10:11

of it, to have somebody step

10:11

into my cafe - I'm only open one

10:15

day a week, but I'm there a lot

10:15

of days so people come in anyhow

10:20

- I just don't serve them

10:20

anything and they sit down face

10:22

to face and talk. And they'll

10:22

stand up and they'll just say

10:26

something so sweet like, "That

10:26

felt so beautiful. That felt so

10:30

wonderful. I haven't felt that

10:30

and I realise how much that

10:35

means to me." I think there's so

10:35

much to gain from this. I'm so

10:39

sorry for the suffering but I

10:39

really hope that all the

10:43

suffering that has happened is

10:43

transformative, and that those

10:48

lives that were lost are going

10:48

to help us grow to be a much

10:53

better world.

10:55

I love that we're

10:55

here to talk about prosperity

10:57

and the moment I ask you for

10:57

some simple practices that you'd

10:59

like to see continue, it went

10:59

straight to connection.

11:03

Connection with nature.

11:03

Connection with self. Connection

11:07

with family - and I want to dive

11:07

a bit deeper into that

11:10

particular part of the answer.

11:10

You personally have been able to

11:13

create and sustain a

11:13

life-serving economy because of

11:18

the help and support of your

11:18

family; the generations up and

11:22

the generations down. Now, many

11:22

of us actually live away from

11:25

family or, sadly, many of us

11:25

have family that are simply not

11:30

supportive, not reliable.

11:30

Shannon, how can those of us who

11:35

don't necessarily have that

11:35

family network available to us,

11:40

how can we make powerful

11:40

lifestyle changes without sort

11:44

of going it alone? Can we go it

11:44

alone?

11:48

Nobody goes it

11:48

alone, Kim. Nobody goes it

11:52

alone. Before you and I started

11:52

talking today you you observed

11:56

you heard some background noise,

11:56

and I said, "Oh, that's one of

11:59

my kids. That's my son." But

11:59

that's actually biologically not

12:04

my son that you heard in the

12:04

background. That is a young man

12:08

who moved in with us at the

12:08

start of COVID, who needed

12:12

family support to move forward

12:12

with his life in his dreams. We

12:17

are all working together, and

12:17

he's helping me on the farm and

12:20

we're helping him get started in

12:20

his life, in spite of all that

12:24

he's faced. And if you follow my

12:24

podcast, you'll hear me refer to

12:30

brothers and sisters-in-laws and

12:30

things like that. And I actually

12:34

only have one biological

12:34

brother. Biologically, my family

12:38

is pretty small. But what I have

12:38

is this network of people that I

12:44

call sister, that I call

12:44

brother, and that have all of

12:49

the same rights and privileges

12:49

of any other family member. It's

12:53

not all genetic. A lot of what I

12:53

have is non-genetic. They are

13:00

people who we have just decided,

13:00

"We are family and that is

13:05

that." And we are the ones who

13:05

put that definition on. So I

13:08

would say when someone says they

13:08

don't have that, then I would

13:11

say that's the first part of

13:11

your quest, is you build that.

13:15

And you build that by being

13:15

there, by showing up with your

13:19

fidelity, with asking for what

13:19

you need, because we build

13:24

relationships by needing as much

13:24

as we do by giving. And that's

13:29

where the real family connection

13:29

is.

13:31

What you were

13:31

describing there is, you giving

13:35

in many ways to many different

13:35

people, and forming family

13:39

through that sense of giving.

13:39

But what have you had to give

13:43

up, Shannon, in order to

13:43

prosper? And how does this

13:47

'giving up' differ in your view

13:47

to giving back or reinvesting?

13:53

You're the first

13:53

person who's ever asked me what

13:55

I've given up. And I have to

13:55

tell you what, I've never

14:01

considered that I gave up

14:01

anything. I suppose what I don't

14:06

have is a steady paycheck. I

14:06

don't have a position. I guess I

14:14

do now because now I'm at the

14:14

head of my family's farm, but I

14:18

never really had title. Titles

14:18

and paychecks. That's about it.

14:23

Maybe I gave up fluorescent

14:23

lighting from an office cubicle.

14:29

I'm stretching. I know and I'm

14:29

keenly aware, I thought going

14:38

through this that I was probably

14:38

giving up the pension and all

14:42

the amenities of a conventional

14:42

job; the steady paycheck, the

14:45

pension, and the sense of

14:45

recognition, identity that

14:51

conventional professions

14:51

provide. I did give that up.

14:55

What I have noticed though, I

14:55

stayed the long game because I

14:59

really like these woods and

14:59

fields and stone walls. And I

15:03

really like being free to walk

15:03

barefoot wherever I want. And I

15:07

don't have many professional

15:07

outfits ... oh, I gave up

15:09

professional outfits, too. But

15:09

what I recognised over time,

15:14

playing the long game, I would

15:14

say I'm probably ... I think,

15:20

one time, we sat down and we ran

15:20

the numbers according to

15:23

national averages. In terms of

15:23

overall wealth, I gave up

15:27

nothing. For a woman my age in

15:27

the United States, I'm probably

15:32

in the upper quadrant of wealth,

15:32

in terms of what has been built.

15:38

Just by doing it in terms of

15:38

building equity in into

15:43

businesses, and reinvesting in

15:43

my community, and getting other

15:46

people to invest and magnify

15:46

that wealth. I know, in terms of

15:51

the long game financially, we

15:51

actually, much to my surprise,

15:56

have come out very, very well.

15:56

So far.

15:59

I found it was a

15:59

powerful question, because I

16:01

imagine there are many people

16:01

who have the regular paycheck,

16:05

you know, and sit within the

16:05

conventional economy that would

16:08

ask that exact question. But the

16:08

power I think, is truly in your

16:12

answer there. I love that you

16:12

hadn't ever considered that

16:15

you'd given anything up. And I

16:15

love that the two things you say

16:18

are a paycheck and a title.

16:18

Because those are the two

16:24

concepts I think people are most

16:24

afraid of giving up in order to

16:28

prosper. And yet here you are,

16:28

with this incredibly prosperous

16:32

life, living a life of true

16:32

wealth, and economic abundance

16:37

you were just saying -

16:37

Yeah, yeah.

16:38

- and yet, all

16:38

you gave up was the chase for a

16:42

regular paycheck and some silly

16:42

title that tells you, you know,

16:46

where you stand in a particular

16:46

hierarchy.

16:49

You know, you're

16:49

hitting, Kim, on a very

16:51

important issue in the book. One

16:51

of the reasons why I hadn't

16:55

really thought about giving that

16:55

up - and I talk about this in

16:58

depth in the book - is, very

16:58

early on in the game, I started

17:02

realising that that was a farce.

17:02

The title and the paycheck,

17:07

they're losing games. It started

17:07

with the day my husband got

17:10

fired from his job and I

17:10

realised my first lesson about

17:14

paychecks was, it's really bad

17:14

to have all your eggs in one

17:17

basket. And financially, when we

17:17

were counting on his salary to

17:25

pay the mortgage on our cabin,

17:25

we were at our most vulnerable

17:30

because that paycheck is only as

17:30

good as the person above you

17:33

thinking you deserve it. And

17:33

when all of your finances are

17:37

coming from one paycheck, that's

17:37

just dangerous. But also, after

17:43

we left the paychecks and I

17:43

started understanding how tax

17:46

codes work, here in the US, I

17:46

discovered that earned income is

17:52

the most expensive form of

17:52

income. I don't know how the tax

17:56

codes work for you but, here in

17:56

the United States, when you earn

18:00

your money, all the taxes are

18:00

taken off the top and then you

18:04

have to live on what's left. But

18:04

when you run a business, you

18:09

earn the money for the business,

18:09

you pay your expenses, and then

18:12

you're taxed on what's left

18:12

after that. But it really does

18:15

make a very huge economic

18:15

difference. I talked about two

18:19

characters in the book - one is

18:19

Responsible Burt who has his

18:22

paycheck, and one is Reckless

18:22

Betty who really wants to invest

18:25

in building a local food

18:25

community around her in an urban

18:29

area. And how is it that

18:29

Responsible Burt can be bringing

18:34

in $100,000 a year, and Reckless

18:34

Betty can be taking in maybe

18:40

12,000 tops, and at the end of

18:40

the year, that she's got almost

18:44

twice the nett income as Bert.

18:44

But that paycheck does end up

18:48

costing so much money. It's not

18:48

as profitable as we think it is.

18:55

I think there's another obstacle though, Shannon, when it comes to moving

18:57

towards true wealth and

19:01

prosperity, and that is hedonic

19:01

adaptation. At some point, what

19:06

we have can feel like it's not

19:06

enough and we want more. We want

19:11

more security, we want more

19:11

property, we want a bigger

19:14

paycheck. Do you feel that daily

19:14

gratitude and appreciation play

19:21

an important role if we really

19:21

want to prosper in our daily

19:26

lives?

19:27

I hate to sound

19:27

mercenary about gratitude and

19:29

spirituality, but I recognise

19:29

this in myself. I don't actually

19:35

pine for the next thing very

19:35

much. You know, I just love

19:39

being out in the hills, as you

19:39

know. But what I recognise is,

19:46

while I don't pine for the next

19:46

thing, I do love the next

19:49

project. I do love the next

19:49

challenge. And now I'm 47 years

19:55

old, and I've built a lot of

19:55

different things, and I've

19:58

started to recognise that if I

19:58

keep going on the challenge for

20:02

the next challenge, I'm going to

20:02

miss out on the next phase of my

20:09

life. And that might be

20:09

appreciating and watching my own

20:14

children's experiences. It can

20:14

be enjoying more time with my

20:19

husband. But I'm also

20:19

recognising that it's my own

20:23

spiritual growth, too, that

20:23

really matters. And so the daily

20:29

practice of gratitude, of

20:29

reflection, is so important. I

20:36

do not want to sound like any

20:36

kind of religious propagandist

20:42

but, how much time do I spend in

20:42

prayer, and reflection? It's

20:48

probably the number one thing I

20:48

do in my day. I do it a lot. I

20:53

am talking with you this morning

20:53

in place of morning meditation,

20:58

but I'll probably go and do that

20:58

as soon as we're done here. I

21:02

talk a lot in the book about

21:02

naps. I go for naps, I'm really

21:05

big into those. But when I go

21:05

for my nap, it starts with

21:10

reading poetry. Because for me,

21:10

poetry opens me up to

21:16

recognising what's around me;

21:16

little sentiments, a reflection

21:21

on what it means to see a

21:21

certain bird, any kind of thing

21:24

like that. It just makes me

21:24

really focus on what's

21:27

magnificent and that stuff can

21:27

really make me just high and

21:31

happy. And then prayer at night,

21:31

or out in the woods, or in my

21:37

journals. There's a lot of that,

21:37

that this life makes room for

21:44

but also demands.

21:46

Shannon, the

21:46

perspective I can see that

21:49

you're beautifully inviting us

21:49

into is that we have the flow of

21:53

prosperity all backwards. Most

21:53

of us go through life with a

21:59

flippant understanding that

21:59

prosperity begins in the bank

22:03

account; prosperity begins in

22:03

the paycheck. And once it is

22:08

all, you know, fine and dandy on

22:08

the outside, that sense of

22:12

prosperity will flow into our

22:12

heart and we will feel mentally,

22:16

emotionally, spiritually well

22:16

and flourishing. What you just

22:22

described there is the complete

22:22

reverse the flow. As you

22:27

describe it, prosperity begins

22:27

in your spiritual self. It

22:32

begins with you and the

22:32

connection that you have with

22:35

the planet, and with people, and

22:35

with something greater than

22:38

yourself. And when you find

22:38

prosperity within, so much of

22:43

what is external to you either

22:43

no longer matters or flows in

22:47

prosperous ways. Would you agree

22:47

with that?

22:50

Yeah, I think you

22:50

should write the book. That's

22:52

good. Yes, absolutely. What I

22:52

started to recognise was, I want

23:00

the ability to be with my

23:00

family, I want the ability to

23:03

know that the soil beneath my

23:03

feet is alive, and I want the

23:09

freedom to sit whenever I want

23:09

to sit. And I want to be able to

23:15

think and push my mind. Well,

23:15

then you start to recognise

23:20

there's just not a single item

23:20

or a paycheck that's going to

23:23

enable any of that. None of it

23:23

will enable any of that. Some of

23:27

it will pay the taxes, but it

23:27

just gets so much smaller than

23:32

you realise. And then that other

23:32

wealth really grows.

23:36

Getting off the

23:36

economic treadmill is not going

23:39

to be possible for everybody

23:39

listening to this. And for those

23:43

who do choose an alternative way

23:43

- those who do choose to perhaps

23:46

become an entrepreneur and take

23:46

more time to sit - they are

23:50

going to find it challenging at

23:50

points. Correct?. And in your

23:53

book, you are very clear that

23:53

you struggled and you had to put

23:57

your, you know, nose to the

23:57

grindstone and you really had to

24:00

work hard through some

24:00

challenging moments. What did

24:04

you tap into, then, in that

24:04

moment? What was pulling you

24:08

forward through the challenging

24:08

times? What made it worthwhile

24:13

when you were struggling with a

24:13

business that was in the red?

24:17

I spent a lot of

24:17

time in that red, let me tell

24:22

you. Well, I remember there was

24:22

this one day I was just really

24:28

stressed. You know, my husband

24:28

was taken off to the farmers

24:31

market. I was trying to get the

24:31

cafe open, and I had like this

24:35

stack of bills that were on my

24:35

desk that I didn't have the

24:38

money to pay, and I was getting

24:38

the cafe ready to open. I was

24:41

taking a couple quiches out of

24:41

the oven and I dropped the

24:44

quiche on the floor and burned

24:44

myself. And the burn marks on my

24:49

wrists literally looked like

24:49

shackles. And the customers were

24:55

like, you know, getting ready to

24:55

come in and I'm on the floor of

24:58

my kitchen sobbing. And my kids

24:58

are back there with me, trying

25:04

to scoop up this quiche, trying

25:04

to figure out how to salvage

25:08

something from the day. And then

25:08

I went from sobbing to absolute

25:13

laughter. It was pretty

25:13

maniacal. Like, "Oh my god, does

25:18

this really blow or what? Just

25:18

terrible." And I kept looking at

25:26

those burns. And we shut the

25:26

cafe at the end of the day - we

25:30

got through,I don't know how I

25:30

got through that day - but with

25:34

this sense of, I'm a victim of

25:34

my life and I've made the worst

25:39

set of decisions. And I'm

25:39

working for the worst possible

25:42

boss, which is myself. And it

25:42

was a real low point. And we had

25:48

no money to go anywhere or do

25:48

anything. And I was angry. I was

25:54

really angry, because, oh, my

25:54

God, everybody else gets paid.

25:59

The feed guy gets paid, the

25:59

insurance guy gets paid, the tax

26:02

guy gets paid. All these people

26:02

get paid, labour gets paid. But

26:06

I'm the one doing all the work.

26:06

I'm the one with my head in a

26:09

toilet bowl, making sure it's

26:09

sparkly clean every morning for

26:12

the guests, for the customers,

26:12

and I don't get paid. And I was

26:15

so angry. So we closed the cafe,

26:15

and I just put a vacation notice

26:21

up. Gone fishing. And just we

26:21

disappeared into a mile up the

26:28

road for 48 hours. We took the

26:28

kids, we took the tents and the

26:33

dogs, and we got out of

26:33

cellphone range. And on that

26:38

trip, we just made it our goal

26:38

to explore every swimming hole

26:41

within a five mile radius. And I

26:41

just brought some leftover food

26:47

from the cafe to eat, decided I

26:47

didn't care. I wasn't gonna do

26:50

any gourmet feasts. And I sat by

26:50

this little pond up the road,

26:56

and I thought, and I thought.

26:56

And I started to realise, I got

27:03

into this business because of

27:03

the problems; because they say

27:08

that farming and the small scale

27:08

in the United States is

27:13

impossible. And I realised that

27:13

that problem intrigued me. And I

27:21

opened a cafe in a place that

27:21

was considered a food desert, a

27:26

nowheresville, a dead town,

27:26

because I thought it should be

27:30

there. Because I was fascinated

27:30

about what would happen if I did

27:34

it. And I started to recognise

27:34

that what I was after, was the

27:39

challenge, the quest, the

27:39

problems. I'm in it for the

27:44

problems. And it was this little

27:44

tiny shift in my thinking.

27:47

Realising, "Oh, I took this on

27:47

for the quest. I took this on

27:51

for the challenge. I took this

27:51

on for these problems." I get up

27:55

every morning because these

27:55

problems fascinate me. And I

27:58

want to work on them. I don't

27:58

get up every morning angry

28:02

because the problem isn't

28:02

solved. If the problem were

28:06

solved, I wouldn't have anything

28:06

to do. I'm in this for the

28:12

problems, because I care about

28:12

them.

28:16

Let's go a step

28:16

back though. Before you even

28:18

realised that - before you had

28:18

that realisation - here's what I

28:22

see that you did that I think we

28:22

can all learn from. When we are

28:25

overwhelmed by our challenges -

28:25

whether it's with regards

28:28

prosperity, or anything else in

28:28

our lives - when we are

28:31

overwhelmed and feeling trapped

28:31

in our lives, or upset or angry,

28:38

many of us turn to control to

28:38

try and fix the situation. Many

28:43

of us tend to control. We try to

28:43

pull the right lever, or work

28:46

harder, or push harder against

28:46

that person there. You didn't

28:49

turn to control, Shannon. You

28:49

turned to connection. You took

28:55

yourself away, you connected

28:55

with your family and the planet.

28:58

And I think, of everything you

28:58

just said that there stands out

29:03

to me is the most powerful,

29:03

beautiful thing that we can

29:05

understand. That we can do hard

29:05

things; that when those things

29:11

are overwhelming, perhaps it's

29:11

in connection that we will find

29:14

the solutions. Not in control.

29:17

I do believe

29:17

that. But I also believe that

29:19

there's the narrative that we're

29:19

telling ourselves. We need our

29:22

stories. And we do have to

29:22

recognise that the narrative

29:25

that we're telling ourselves -

29:25

connecting to our own story - is

29:29

part of the joy of what we're in

29:29

this for. And so yes, yes, it's

29:33

hard. There's no doubt about it.

29:33

It's really hard. But when you

29:37

realise. "Oh, yeah, but that's

29:37

what makes it interesting" and

29:41

that's what gives you something

29:41

to talk about with your partner,

29:44

or your family members at the

29:44

end of the night. Anything that

29:46

makes you know, cocktail hour

29:46

interesting is great. And so

29:50

then what I started to realise

29:50

is that these problems are

29:53

actually, indeed, part of the

29:53

wealth. To get to work on a

29:56

problem that I care about, that

29:56

really matters, is huge. And

30:01

that gives you the energy to

30:01

come back and start again.

30:05

Your idea of a

30:05

life-serving economy is very

30:08

much aligned with a sense of

30:08

community and connectedness. It

30:12

just keeps popping up in the

30:12

narrative here. Are there ways

30:14

that we can help others to

30:14

prosper and enhance true wealth

30:20

in our families, our

30:20

communities, and our world?

30:24

Always. I think

30:24

one of the ways that we start,

30:27

is by recognising the wealth

30:27

that we have. So I don't have,

30:33

you know ... I open up my

30:33

wallet, it doesn't look like

30:36

there's a lot in there. When I

30:36

get calls for big donations,

30:40

cash donations, I don't have

30:40

that to give. And yet, there are

30:44

other ways that I'm extremely

30:44

wealthy, and our family is

30:48

extremely wealthy. And when I

30:48

want to build a better world, we

30:52

tap into the wealth that we

30:52

have. So we tap in with food, we

30:59

tap in with the time that we can

30:59

sit down and share with

31:03

somebody, the shelter that we

31:03

can give. And you start people

31:08

on their lives, on their paths,

31:08

from your wealth point, if you

31:13

will. And that's that becomes

31:13

the joy. Right now, in my life,

31:17

when I've got businesses running

31:17

really well, that's where the

31:20

thrill is for me - is when

31:20

people can come to me and I

31:24

figure out, "Okay, I can help in

31:24

this way. I can help in that way

31:27

and help that person get going

31:27

with their dreams."

31:30

My final

31:30

question, Shannon, is one I ask

31:32

every guest on the Eudaemonia

31:32

podcast. Can you offer my

31:36

listeners a morning reminder -

31:36

so this might be a practice a

31:40

mantra, or an affirmation -

31:40

something that can help us all

31:43

prosper as we begin each day?

31:46

Yeah, I mean,

31:46

I've talked about this a lot

31:49

today, but most things that are

31:49

worth doing seem impossible.

31:53

It's just a fact. If it's really

31:53

worth it, it's going to seem

31:57

impossible. And it gets back to

31:57

what I was saying earlier - this

32:01

is about the quest. You may not

32:01

have a three-generation business

32:06

with a snap of your fingers.

32:06

It's about the quest. It's about

32:10

the journey to get there. I talk

32:10

in the book about ways we

32:13

diversify the income so that you

32:13

can start your journey, but it's

32:17

ultimately about starting that

32:17

journey and taking that

32:20

adventure. So all I can say is,

32:20

it's about the quest. It's not

32:25

about arriving.

32:27

Shannon Hayes,

32:27

your latest book is called

32:30

Redefining Rich and in its

32:30

chapters, you literally do

32:33

redefine rich. And you offer

32:33

some incredible practical tips

32:38

and tools, and sort of emotional

32:38

tips and tools as well, to help

32:42

people find their way off that

32:42

economic treadmill and into true

32:46

wealth. If people want to find

32:46

out more about the book, about

32:50

you, where can people find out

32:50

more?

32:52

Come over to

32:52

www.sapbush.com and, on there,

32:52

Thank you so

32:52

much, Shannon, for coming onto

32:57

you can actually find links to

32:57

the podcast, which is the Heart

33:00

of Sap Bush Hollow podcast,

33:00

where it's chronicles and les

33:04

ons from a life tied to family,

33:04

ommunity, and the land. But

33:07

lso you can learn more about

33:07

he farm, about our farm-to-t

33:10

ble cafe, which is open only S

33:10

turdays. All there on that we

33:15

site. I do have an Instagr

33:15

m feed at @sapbushshannon. And

33:19

ou can find me on Facebook a

33:19

Shan

33:25

the Eudaemonia podcast and

33:25

sharing some of your wisdom with

33:28

me today.

33:28

Thank you, Kim. I had a wonderful time.

33:31

As Carolyn

33:31

Kennedy once remarked, "As much

33:34

as we need a prosperous economy,

33:34

we also need a prosperity of

33:38

kindness and decency." You've

33:38

been listening to the final

33:43

episode of Season 10 of the

33:43

Eudaemonia podcast. I'll see you

33:47

back here in late July with more

33:47

uplifting interviews. In the

33:51

meantime, if you'd like to learn

33:51

more about how to live a truly

33:55

flourishing life, please

33:55

subscribe, check out www.eudaem

33:58

niapod.com for more inspir

33:58

ng episodes, or come join me

34:03

on Instagram, @iamkimforrester.

34:03

'm Kim Forrester. Until next

34:08

ime, be well, be kind to

34:08

ourself, and make prosperity a

34:14

priority.