0:06

From wondering I'm Brooks And

0:08

I'm a Resha Skidmore Williams, And

0:11

this is even the Ridge over the last three episodes.

0:14

We've told you how the house of Gucci rose from its humble beginnings as an Italian leather goods shop, to being synonymous with high fashion, I'm

0:23

telling you it's that gold double G logo Truly.

0:27

We've also told you how to treat Tiara Giuliani.

0:29

The ex-wife of Maricio Gucci orchestrated the murder that I

0:34

talked to the world. And in case you've been hiding under a rock for the last few months, the story was the basis for the new movie house of Gucci, starring lady Gaga as Patricia Gianni.

0:44

Plus we had Adam driver Al Pachino and Yeah,

0:48

and let's not sleep on Selma higher of course, but yes, the movie is generating Oscar buzz for Gaga.

0:55

And since you and I just saw it, I'm wondering Horatio, what did you think?

1:00

I would obviously say no spoilers, but I think our podcast took care of that already.

1:05

Yeah. I mean, it's not like Maricio lives in the movie version on fortunately for him.

1:10

Yeah. But yeah, I feel like it was a pretty good film lady.

1:14

Gaga was excellent as Patrizia What

1:17

do you think of it? Yeah, no. I mean, when I saw it was two and a half hours long, I was like, is this a typo?

1:22

It was very, very long, but facet to just Read

1:27

the book, Charlie.

1:28

But no, I agree with you like lady Gaga.

1:31

She, she actually blew me away.

1:34

Like her performance was ACEs and it was good.

1:38

You know, they took some liberties obviously with the story, but yeah, I

1:41

enjoyed it. I mean, not to plug our show in our show, but having recorded three episodes about it, I was like, yeah, it was so helpful for following the story.

1:52

So it really, if you're going to see it, I highly encourage listening to even the rich available wherever you get your podcasts.

1:58

Right. And then of course you have some amazing fashion in the film, Which

2:01

we love. And speaking of fashion today, we'll be talking with fashion writer and vanity fair contributor.

2:07

Leah Fe Cooper Leah's work has appeared in Harper's Bazaar glamour and the Hollywood reporter, her latest vanity fair article profiles, Gucci designer, Alessandro McKell who revitalize the brand when he became creative director in 2015.

2:23

And then later we're going to be joined by journalists, Sarah Gay Forden who wrote the house of Gucci, a sensational story of murder madness, glamor in greed, which was adapted for the new movie After

2:42

almost 14 years under a disturbing and controlling conservatorship.

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Our girl, Brittany Spears is finally free.

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Finally, God comedians, Tess Barker and Babs gray are here to bring you the full story in an investigative podcast that takes a deep dive into Brittany's mysterious situation.

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You might know, test and Babs from lady to lady or the now legendary Brittany's gram podcast.

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After launching the hashtag free Brittany movement Years ago, they started digging more into Britney's conservatorship and the court system that allowed it to continue.

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It has and Babs, as they talk to exclusive sources, update you on all the latest news, examine new sides of the story and uncover disturbing truth about our legal system.

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That go way beyond Brittany, Listen and follow along to toxic the Brittany spear story on Stitcher, apple podcasts, Pandora, or wherever you find your podcasts.

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This Episode is brought to you by decoy and a claimed winery in a Duckhorn Folio.

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4:04

Well, hello, Leah. Thank you so much for joining us on even the rich, we are so excited to have you.

4:09

Thank You for having me.

4:11

I'm thrilled.

4:11

So I want to dive into your vanity fair article, but first I'm wondering, do you remember when you first discovered Gucci and what it meant to you?

4:23

So I know it sounds ridiculous to say, I don't remember life without, but I need my father.

4:32

I get my love of fashion from my father.

4:34

You know, he, you know, exposed me at a very young age, you know, would take me shopping with him to really nice stores and, you know, explain to me why a luxury item was a luxury item.

4:47

You know, like look at the scene, look at this leather, look at this fabric.

4:50

So I grew up loving fashion and you know, I was always really into it reading fashion magazines from a young age.

4:58

And so it was probably, I would say probably around middle schools when I was like, yes, when I am older, when I have my own money, I going to the Gucci store and buying a bag and some are Older

5:12

with more money. Have you been able to buy that Gucci Bag?

5:15

You know what on consignment?

5:19

Yes.

5:19

So,

5:23

yeah. So when I was in college, I was home in North Carolina for a break and there's a consignment store in my hometown.

5:31

I don't think it's open anymore.

5:32

And I found a black Gucci bucket bag with the double G and I bought it and I mean, I still have it.

5:45

I actually carried it the other day to go to sea as a Gucci.

5:48

But

5:48

yeah,

5:48

that

5:48

was

5:48

my

5:51

first. That was my first purchase. And then I think maybe when I was 16, either 16 for high school graduation, my father bought me a Gucci watch, which I also cherished.

6:02

I love it. Well for my graduation, I got dinner at friendly.

6:05

So I

6:09

know, I hope we got the ice cream, you know, I got the big one.

6:13

That's

6:15

So cool. So have you acquired any other Gucci pieces Since

6:19

then? Yes. I have also on consignment, fantastic dress from the Tom Ford era.

6:26

It's like a brown, tight fitting sheet with a bamboo buckle.

6:31

Oh.

6:33

So when you look at Gucci, how has the brand evolved over the years?

6:38

I mean, drastically, you know, like it started off as a small family business, you know, like making leather goods and it has evolved into this massive global empire that so many different types of people.

6:56

And so many like demographics are drawn to, you know, like I think Gucci still has their customer.

7:03

Who's been shopping with them since the sixties, but they also have a lot of gen Z fans.

7:10

And I think that's really, you know, like how, how it's evolved.

7:14

Like it started off as something, you know, like very small, very particular to like Italy in terms of like the silhouettes and the fabrics that they were using in terms of the craftsmen ship.

7:25

And it is now evolved into something where arguably there could be something for everyone, you know, they still have like a very traditional dad loafer, but you can also pick yourself up a floor length, sequined gown, embellished with feathers worn with a star pastries underneath, right.

7:53

Really something forever.

7:54

So coming back to Tom Ford, we know he became Gucci's creative director in 1994 and he pretty much reinvented Gucci for a new generation.

8:04

So can you tell us where the Gucci brand was before Ford took the reins and how he really transformed it?

8:13

Yeah. So prior to Tom Ford, I mean, it was just very, it was safe, you know, the clothes were gorgeous and they were well-made and still very, you know, like covetable, but it was just very safe.

8:28

You know, they were not really pushing the needle, you know, in terms of like fashion, they're kind of just really relying heavily on the styles and the motifs that the house was known for.

8:42

And when Tom Ford came in, he really did a 180 on them.

8:48

But it's interesting. I mean, he did.

8:50

So while also, you know, referencing the archive and you take something as simple as like a shirt, obviously Gucci had made shirts for forever, but Tom Ford made them in these amazing Juul tones.

9:04

And then there was also, you know, an element to the styling that was very different.

9:09

So, you know, you have like a satin shirt to be, you're styling it, you know, unbuttoned to the navel.

9:15

You know, the rise on the pants got much lower and the ads also got extremely provocative.

9:23

You know, we had, you know, the advertisement where, you know, a is shaved into someone's pubes, you know, like women, like, you know, straddling men.

9:34

And yet he just was rolling out like really bold, fun, vibrant fashion, like very sexy.

9:42

Whereas before I think the allure and the appeal of Gucci was that, you know, it was beautiful.

9:48

It was luxurious, it was Italian, it was well-made.

9:51

But Tom Ford, I feel like created more of a fantasy if you will, for the consumer.

9:59

Like it wasn't, the people just wanted a Gucci bag.

10:02

Like they wanted to be a Gucci woman.

10:05

They wanted to be like a Gucci man.

10:07

Like, you know, it was just associated with being really, really cool and that, you know, that trickled to the red carpet, you know, obviously he designed that amazing, you know, velvet suit, the Gwenyth Paltrow wore Madonna was in that, you know, that Juul tone set and collection from 95, 97, things got real spicy with the double G G strings that he put models And

10:36

it's on brand.

10:36

So

10:36

Gucci's

10:36

creative

10:36

director

10:36

since

10:36

2015

10:36

has

10:36

been

10:36

Alisandra

10:43

Miquel. And I feel like his designs do give a nod to the Ford era.

10:48

And I want to talk about how he's transformed Gucci yet again, but first I got to say, Alisandra has got quite an eclectic look all on his own, and I'm wondering for our listeners, can you describe him for us?

11:01

I think what was unexpected was that I had this idea in my head like this guy is, he seems really cool.

11:08

He seems like really fun, but it was like that on steroids.

11:13

Like he had his hair in pigtails at the time and yeah.

11:21

And of course I was, you know, I was asking him questions about his hair routine.

11:24

And he was like, oh, my dad's hair was really, really long.

11:26

And you know, he told me not to wash it every day, so I don't important, important.

11:33

And you know, he has lots of jewelry.

11:36

So we had like lots of rings on and he's talked about, you know, in interviews before that he has always stood out.

11:46

Like, he's always been like acentric and that was not easy for him growing up, that he, you know, got, you know, taunted and, you know, like bullied a lot, you know, for dressing the way that he did and for, for what his interests are.

12:00

But he has not deviated from that.

12:03

I like that. He also, you talk about how he keeps bees and he collects antiques.

12:08

Right.

12:10

He likes everything actually like he's, he collects many different objects, but yeah, he has at his country estate, he has like an apiary on his roof and yeah, he loves bees, which you see what you see in a lot of his collections.

12:29

So Tell

12:32

us the story of how he ended up becoming the creative director Of

12:36

Gucci. Yes. So could she have decided that they're going to part ways that the previous creative director and the CEO, or the president had a meeting with Alessandro and decided to give him a shot, the catch being that he had to like redesign the whole collection in a week.

12:55

Oh, wow.

12:57

That's a hell of a catch, right?

12:59

Like,

13:02

sure. We can redesign this in a week. So, so he did, and it was a great collection.

13:10

It certainly was not what we're used to seeing from him now.

13:14

It was, it was definitely a bit more restrained.

13:17

But after that, he really leaned in, you know, with his vision and his aesthetic and brought this like really colorful, vibrant geek.

13:29

She weird, quirky, very maximalist.

13:34

And it's like sequence and lace and people walking down the runway, carrying a replica of their head.

13:41

And if you remember that show, I remember the photos.

13:48

Yeah. Bonkers stuff. Jared Leto took one to the met gala.

13:53

Wow. So since Allesandra became creative director in 2015, how has he influenced the Gucci design?

14:01

Like, it sounds like, you know, gender fluidity and just kind of being in step with the cultural moment is a big part of it for him, right?

14:10

Yes. And when you talked about gender fluidity and that's something that we spoke about in our interview and he, he was very adamant.

14:18

He's like, you know, people say that I like, you know, invented this.

14:21

And I really did, like, this has been, you know, like people have been doing this for a long time.

14:26

I just think that it's in, you know, like his presentation, you know, like often combining the men's and women's shows and also he's made Poochie, like he's made it like very fun and like exciting, or it's kind of like, if you are wearing all of Sondra's Gucci, you're like, you know, one of the cool kids.

14:48

So speaking of Cool

14:51

kids, you mentioned how Alessandra was bullied as a kid for being different.

14:55

And from your article, it sounds like that experience seemed to have strengthened his resolve to be unapologetically himself.

15:03

And I'm wondering if you think that sense of empowerment is something that he's been able to bring to the Gucci brand.

15:12

And I think that that's another reason why it's so popular now because you know, fashion, I think for, for a lot of people, it's how you choose to, to express yourself through clothing.

15:25

And I think that what he's done is given people license to just go all out.

15:34

And yes, I think that that resonates with people.

15:37

And I think people really appreciate that.

15:41

And he told me that it's such a thrill for him whenever he's walking around and, and young people especially come up to him and are like, oh my gosh, I love food.

15:51

I love what you're doing. I think it's so cool.

15:53

Cause you know, he was, he was that ecentric kid once.

15:59

So before we let you go, we have to ask what did you and your Gucci bucket bag think about?

16:05

So Gucci. Oh my gosh. Okay.

16:07

I personally loved it.

16:08

I mean, I went into this movie, like I do any, you know, movie that's like based on a true story or that's a bio pic, you know, like understanding that some liberties were likely taken for entertainment value, but I found it to be highly entertaining.

16:26

And I thought, I thought lady Gaga did a fantastic job.

16:32

Phenomenal. Did you have any favorite looks In

16:34

the film? Yes. So I loved the look when Patricia, when she went to canal street actually and discovered the, not Bob.

16:43

So that was like a matching set, like the tone of the pants.

16:46

It was like all dabbled out.

16:48

I loved that.

16:49

I mean, I thought that her red ski outfit was amazing.

16:56

Oh, where's that so well, And

17:00

then also Jeremy irons, like his like home lounge where I found it was quite chic.

17:09

Yeah. It was all, it was all really good.

17:11

Yeah.

17:13

Well, Leah, that is all we have for you today.

17:15

Thank you so much for joining us.

17:17

This was so Fun.

17:18

Thanks Leah.

17:20

Thank you guys. This was such a pleasure After

17:24

the break, we'll be speaking with journalists, Sarah Gay Horton.

17:27

She wrote the book that inspired the house of Gucci movie, which was directed by Ridley Scott, starring our girl, lady Gaga and Adam driver.

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21:00

Sarah gave warning. Thank you so much for joining us here on even the retro.

21:03

We're really happy to have you.

21:05

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah.

21:08

So obviously everyone's talking about the Gucci's because of the new movie, but before there was the movie, there was your book.

21:15

Can you tell us a little bit about the backstory there?

21:19

You know, I was covering the Italian luxury goods industry at the time.

21:23

This was kind of a, an extraordinary moment in the life of the Italian fashion industry.

21:29

And it was a time when family labels like Versace and Gucci and Prada were making a quantum leap into becoming mega brands.

21:39

So Sarah, I'm curious how you went from reporting on Gucci to writing a book about Gucci.

21:46

You know, I think as many journalists I for years had wanted to write a book and for the longest time I couldn't figure out what it would be that I would write a book about.

21:55

And one summer, I think it was 96 or 97.

22:00

I was home in the Washington area, visiting family.

22:03

And they recently opened a new public library.

22:06

And in the research department, the old card catalog had been unceremoniously moved off to the side and there was a computer that was the new feature in the research department.

22:18

So I was like, well, let's go up to this computer.

22:20

And of course I'm dating myself here, but go up to this computer and see what it could do.

22:26

And so I typed in Gucci and spit out the 10 blue links.

22:31

And to my amazement, eight of those links were actually articles that I had written, oh wow.

22:37

That's when the light bulb went off in my head and I thought, oh my God, I know something about something.

22:43

And it was, it was also enough time had gone by and nothing's that evolved that there, the story had kind of a narrative arc.

22:51

And so at that one, I was like, wow, this is a true life novel.

22:55

So You are covering Gucci at the time of Mauricio's murder.

22:59

Can you just tell us, like, what was your reaction to that at the time?

23:03

It was incredibly shocking. Mauricio had actually been two years out of the family business.

23:09

So it was being run by InvestCore at the time and by Tom Ford and Domenico de Solei, they were in the process of turning it around.

23:17

And so actually Gucci was really kind of bursting on the fashion scene in a way that it never had before Tom had done a blowout fashion show, you know, the products were starting to sell, they were working on the IPO.

23:31

And then when Mauricio Gucci was shot, it just was an inexplicable, like incredible act of violence, but nobody could figure out why.

23:42

And what had happened. There was this incredible, like shroud of mystery hanging over this death for two years.

23:50

Now you interviewed something like a hundred sources for your book.

23:54

And I'm wondering, did you have an opportunity to interview Marie ETO?

23:59

Yes. I interviewed myself several times and I first met him in 1991, his first big press conference and Milan and the newly refurbished headquarters that he had opened.

24:11

And he was telling his vision about how he wanted to turn the country back into a high-end luxury brand.

24:18

He wanted to become the Italian air mess.

24:20

So rivalry now the top sort of label in the French luxury firmament.

24:25

And then a few weeks after my article published on the front page of the wall street journal sources started coming out of the woodworks and they wanted to tell me that things were not going as smoothly as Mauricio had laid out at that press conference.

24:42

And the company was losing money and people were leaving and the whole thing was really headed towards failure.

24:49

And so I started writing really tough stories about this turnaround.

24:53

And then I interviewed him in several followup interviews.

24:57

You know, I was taking my evidence to him and the things people were bringing me in, he was refuting them and talking about his plan.

25:05

So it was actually very tense, but at the same time, he was always incredibly charming and incredibly positive and enthusiastic about what he was doing.

25:15

So what was your impression then of him as a person, but also as a businessman because you're kind of getting conflicting stories from the sources.

25:21

I'm curious, like what you gleaned as the reporter, hearing both The

25:25

sides, you know, at the end of the day, well, he failed and we know he was a terrible businessman, but he had a vision.

25:33

It was almost like he, he conveyed this like infectious enthusiasm.

25:36

Like he really drew people into his story and his dream.

25:41

So one of the things I was really intrigued by in covering the Italian entrepreneurs is how important it was and is still today to have a strong vision for your company.

25:53

And I think that he lacked the tools.

25:56

He lacked the experience, he lacked the skills, but one of the most haunting things that he said as he was fighting, you know, this big sort of financial battle with Invus Corp, they had like opened a war room.

26:09

They were collecting all this evidence against them.

26:11

They were gathering evidence of his mounting debts.

26:13

They were trying to force him out and he was pleading with them.

26:17

And he said, give me time. In six months, the Japanese market will have perceived what we're doing.

26:22

They will love our products. They will start buying again.

26:25

And the wind will be in our sales and they did not give him six months.

26:29

He was out before then, but sure enough, six months later, that's exactly what happened.

26:35

The Japanese market came back with the roar and, you know, Gucci was on an upward trajectory.

26:41

So, you know, I know that he, He

26:43

brought in Tom Ford and it was kind of paying off his new vision.

26:46

So why did he ultimately lose control of the business?

26:51

Well, he lost control because the debts had, had gone past a point where Invus Corp was willing to just keep putting cash into the company.

26:59

And Gucci was literally days away from declared bankruptcy when they had a board meeting and they forced muddied so out.

27:08

Well, one of the things that the house of Gucci movie doesn't really get into is Mauricio's relationship with Tom Ford.

27:15

And I'm wondering if you have a little bit of insight on what that relationship was like.

27:19

I mean, it sounds like there was some tension, Great

27:24

question. Nationally, Tom Ford was a, you know, kind of low on the totem pole in the sense that he was a junior designer, but then as people were leaving, he was actually designing single-handedly the whole range of Gucci products.

27:37

So he was starting to build what has his global vision for the Gucci brand.

27:43

And it was in quite a sharp contrast to what motivates you wanted.

27:48

Mount ETO had a vision of a very classic old world luxury.

27:53

And he used to say that he wanted Gucci to be round and brown and soft to a woman's touch.

28:00

Whereas Tom who had this very edgy, sexy vision of a modern woman in his head wanted to make good shoes, square and black.

28:09

And he did that.

28:11

You know, we know he went on to make everything square and black, so they had very different visions.

28:17

But I think ultimately, you know, with Tom at the home, they, they catapulted Gucci right into the top of like the European and the Italian fashion firmament.

28:27

And that became like the must go to must-see show and Milan, We

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29:31

I want to switch gears just a little bit here and talk about Patricia.

29:34

So in a recent interview, lady Gaga said that she didn't think Patricia took any pleasure from taking people down, which of course is contrary to what a lot of people probably think.

29:46

So I'm curious when you were researching for the book, what did you discover about who Patricia really was and what drove her?

29:55

You know, I found, but one of the most complex characters in the story and, and almost the most challenging to, to figure out as a writer, obviously why we can't condone what she did.

30:07

It was important to try to sort of dig deep and figure out why, like, how would she have gotten to that point?

30:13

And I think there were several sort of key points that I would try to connect.

30:19

And, and one is that she was very much pushed by her mother from behind to not only marry a wealthy man, but marry a man with a big name and clearly Mauricio fit that bill very well.

30:33

Right. That said, I do believe that he was absolutely head over heels about her.

30:40

And she was also in love with him.

30:42

And yet then came a series of disappointments as he got control of Gucci and became kind of the big luxury CEO that she had been pushing him to be.

30:54

At the same time. He had gone from a very controlling father, Adolfo to a very controlling wife and , and he kind of became the epitome of the henpecked husband and uncertain point.

31:08

He drove the line and said, no, you know, I'm done, I'm done with this.

31:12

There's

31:12

another

31:15

element. I think that's important to understand.

31:17

And this came actually came out in the trial.

31:19

The judge ordered a psychiatric evaluation of Patricia and it came back that she was not insane, but it did show that she had a psychological disorder, a personality disorder, they called a narcissistic personality disorder.

31:35

Yeah. And that meant that anything that happened that went against her had like an outsized impact on her and she perceived it as a personal attack.

31:45

And so that kind of helps one to understand how the things that Mount eats it did maybe not intending, you know, to direct them at her, like what he lost Gucci.

31:56

She, so she's given interviews.

31:57

And when she's talked about how he should not have done that to her, she experienced it as a personal attack.

32:05

Now, quick Sidebar.

32:06

What's the Italian court.

32:08

Like, I

32:11

mean, I, I spent a lot of time and you know, the, the, the law court house is a very formidable building.

32:18

It's huge. I mean, it's like miles.

32:20

And I describe it in my book. It's like miles of hallways.

32:23

It covers, you know, several city blocks.

32:26

I thought the courtroom scene and the movie was phenomenal and extremely realistic.

32:32

Like when you're looking up at the judge looking down on you, and there's the, there's the plaque above his head that says, you know, just , which means, you know, justice is for everyone.

32:43

And that courtroom was more ornate than the one in Milan, but the feeling was the same.

32:49

The other really key thing about the Italian courtrooms, at least the ones that the good, the one that the Gucci trial took place in was that there they have cages in the back of the courtroom for the defendants.

32:59

If the defendants are considered to be at risk of, of escape or, or violence kind of goes dates back to the mafia trials.

33:10

And so in the case of the Gucci trial, the killer and the driver were in one of the cages.

33:17

Wow. It's definitely different than our court system.

33:20

And actually I've been in other trials. Like I sat in covered the Parma law.

33:25

That was a milk company that went through a bankruptcy trial and there was nobody in the Cajuns, but then there was not enough room to sit because it was overflowing with media.

33:35

So we would sit in the cages also an experience.

33:42

Well, Of course, if the door open, Right,

33:44

right. Of course, of course come and go as you please.

33:45

So,

33:45

Sarah,

33:45

I

33:45

want

33:45

to

33:45

ask

33:45

you

33:45

about

33:45

your

33:45

new

33:45

article

33:45

for

33:45

Bloomberg,

33:45

which

33:45

tells

33:45

an

33:45

untold

33:45

piece

33:45

of

33:45

the

33:53

story. Can you tell us a little bit about who Sherry McLaughlin is and what role she plays in this story?

34:00

Yes. So this was really like an unexpected update to the whole story.

34:04

And when I was writing the book, I interviewed over a hundred people and there was one who got away from me and that was Sharon McLaughlin.

34:13

And she was so good.

34:16

She's first girlfriend when he left Patricia back in 1985 and they, they actually met very innocently.

34:24

She was a sailor, she was in sub Dania watching the sailing competitions and she met Mauricio there and they had an instant rapport.

34:36

It was, it was truly love at first sight.

34:38

And he eventually the following year left Patricia, but we never really knew why he was sort of, it was like a switch had been flipped.

34:47

And I found out that it was because of Sherry and all my emails, my phone calls.

34:54

She wouldn't talk to me. I knew of her existence from other sources, but they're just a few lines about her in the book.

35:01

I could never really flesh out a story.

35:02

And then in 2001, when I was presenting the paperback edition in New York and that it's solely bookstore, and I noticed the beautiful tall blonde woman kind of hanging back and she came towards me at the end, after the last person had left and she had tears in her eyes and she said, Sarah, I'm sharing with Laughlin.

35:25

Wow. And if I had known you were going to write such a fantastic book, I would have cooperated with you.

35:31

Oh wow. So we hugged and we'd spoke.

35:34

And then we said, you know, we went our separate ways and we didn't see or speak to each other for 20 years.

35:41

And

35:41

when

35:41

the

35:41

first

35:41

stills

35:41

came

35:41

out

35:41

and

35:41

broke

35:41

the

35:41

internet

35:41

of

35:41

skiing

35:41

in

35:41

the

35:41

mountains

35:41

and

35:41

Gus

35:41

on

35:41

a,

35:41

she

35:41

got

35:41

back

35:41

in

35:41

touch

35:41

with

35:41

me

35:41

and

35:41

she

35:41

had

35:41

a

35:41

funny

35:41

story

35:41

to

35:41

tell,

35:41

we

35:41

just

35:41

started

35:57

chatting. She said, well, I know why Modi too was wearing a white tee, always wear white ski suit.

36:03

Cause cause Adam driver in the stills is wearing away.

36:06

And she said, well, Melissa was a terrible skier.

36:10

And he always wore white because he used to say, if you fell down, nobody would notice That's

36:17

a good strategy.

36:19

Yeah. I might use that myself.

36:22

So we're chatting and she's like, I'm dreaming about Modi seal.

36:25

I can't stop thinking about him. She's remembering all of these stories about him.

36:29

So I asked her if she would sit for a formal interview and really it was just about, she wanted to, she really loved him.

36:37

She was one of the few people who weren't, you know, asking him for Joel's real estate.

36:42

And she wanted to, to share that this man who had, so who had such a tragic ending and it's so many troubles also had moments of love and sunshine in his life.

36:54

So would you say that being able to have that formal interview with her, did it change your perspective at all?

37:00

On the story?

37:02

You know, really told me why he had the strength to leave Patricia because she described him as weak.

37:09

And I think what happened was that he got a taste, the tea could have a different kind of life.

37:14

And the other thing was that it helped me to understand why he was so determined to turn Gucci around himself and maybe wasn't listening to other people.

37:24

And it was because she said, you know, he constantly felt that he had to prove to his father and his grandfather that he could do it.

37:32

And there is one more thing that's very important.

37:34

And that is that she said, he always feared that Patricia was going to have him killed.

37:40

Oh my gosh.

37:41

So he knew, he knew.

37:44

And as she couldn't evaluate at the time, whether he was just being overly dramatic or not really, he had a feeling he was right.

37:53

Unfortunately. Wow. Yeah.

37:55

So it's been 20 years since your book first came out.

37:58

Now of course, as we know, there's the house of Gucci movie.

38:01

So I'm curious.

38:03

Why do you think people are still so fascinated by this story?

38:09

You know, these are efforts, themes of family, a conflict of love of money of ambition.

38:17

I mean, these are themes that don't really they're timeless.

38:20

They don't really grow old, even though these events happened in the seventies and the eighties and the nineties.

38:26

I mean, there's still issues that we grapple with today.

38:30

So Obviously

38:32

the movie was based on your book.

38:34

I definitely called that out when I saw your name in the credits to my, like we're talking to her tomorrow.

38:40

So I assume you've seen the movie.

38:44

And if you did, what did you think of it?

38:48

Wow. Yes. I've seen it. I can tell you four times.

38:50

I,

38:50

the

38:50

ending

38:50

always

38:50

makes

38:50

me

38:55

cry. It just brings home the finality of, you know, of Maori to his death.

39:02

But I think, you know, as a writer, the, the work of, of reporting and writing a book like this is often very solitary and very, you know, time consuming and it's, you know, collecting each little bit of information and flushing out each scene and each paragraph.

39:19

And then to see your work kind of interpreted on such a big scale is, is, is really kind of overwhelming.

39:26

I would say the first time I saw and I was just completely overwhelmed.

39:31

Yeah. And so to see my work being picked up with such, you know, a top tier director and cast is just incredibly exciting.

39:40

I'm sure.

39:42

So we noticed the film obviously made some changes to the story.

39:45

Like for example, there's only one daughter and Maricio falls for Paula before he's even separated from Patrizia.

39:51

And also he gave her a Bloomingdale's gift card and not a key chain.

39:55

I was like waiting for that key chain to pop out now.

39:57

So why do you think the screenwriters made those changes?

40:01

And did you give any pushback on changes?

40:04

I feel like the screen plays a very different animal than a book, and I'm a book writer.

40:10

I'm a journalist, I'm not a screenplay writer.

40:12

So there are devices that are used and changes that are made.

40:16

But in this case, I felt like they were all sort of to favor the thrust of telling that arc of the story.

40:23

And like some of the things the family conflicts, you know, in real life happened in the boardroom.

40:29

Well, that's kind of boring.

40:31

And that happened in a lot of word rooms, right?

40:33

Many, many family boardroom fights.

40:36

So like the scene where you see the family picnic on lake Como and the, and the, you know, the cultural story go, the sort of soccer, historic soccer match.

40:44

That's, that's a movie that's movie language for, for conveying a lot of the action that in the book happened in the boardrooms.

40:52

And I think that's totally fine.

40:55

I mean, we want to captivate an audience, right.

40:59

So how have things changed for you since all the buzz surrounding the film has started?

41:03

I imagine your book is getting a whole second life at this point.

41:07

You know, it's funny, my mom, my mom, who was my editor, she edited every single line in the book shoes of professional editor.

41:14

She's now 91 years old.

41:17

And we went together for my first screening of the movie.

41:21

So that was very exciting.

41:22

And she said to me, something, that's sort of like, if your child is now sort of gone forth into the world and you know, you're always worried, like, does it need care and feeding or can it stand on its own?

41:33

And so in a way like this child is, is, has gotten a whole new life and it's very exciting.

41:42

Cool. Well, Sarah, that's all we have for you today.

41:45

Thank you so much for speaking with us and everybody definitely check out Sarah's book.

41:50

Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. So much.

41:52

Thanks so much for having me. It's great. Talking with you For

41:54

more on the Gucci saga checkout Sarah's book, the house of Gucci, a sensational story of murder, madness, glamor, and greed, and Sure.

42:03

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42:15

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42:21

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42:26

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42:34

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42:39

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42:51

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Another way you can support the show is by filling out a survey at wondery.com/survey I'm

43:11

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43:13

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43:16

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43:18

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43:20

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43:23

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44:46

From 30, I'm Brooke Siffron, and I 30 Skidmore Williams. And this is even the rich. Over the last three episodes, we've told you how the House of lows from its humble beginnings as an Italian leather goods shop to being synonymous with high fashion. I'm telling you it's that gold double G logo I'm telling you it's that gold double g logo. Truly. We've also told you how 30 Reggiani, the ex wife of 30 Guccis, orchestrated the murder that shocked the world. And in case you've been hiding under a rock for the last few months, the story was the basis for the new movie House of Gucci starring Lady Gaga as 30 Plus, we had Adam Driver, 30, and Jared Leto. Yeah. And let's not sleep on Selma Haya, of course. But yes, the movie is generating Oscar buzz for Gaga. And since you and I just saw it, I'm wondering, Ariesha, what did you think? I would obviously say no spoilers, but I think our podcast took care of that already. Yeah. I mean, it's not like Maricio lives in the movie version on fortunately for I mean, it's not like Maurizio lives in the movie version, unfortunately. 30. Right. Yeah. But, yeah, I feel like it was a pretty good film. Lady Gaga was excellent as 30 What do you think of it? Yeah. No. I mean, when I thought it was two and half hours long, I was like, is this a typo? It was very very long, but faster to just read the book. Yeah. 30. But no, I agree with you like 30 Gaga. She she actually blew me away. Like, her performance was aces. Yeah. And it was good. You know, they took some liberties obviously with the story. Yeah. But -- Yeah. I enjoyed -- enjoyed it. I mean, not to plug our show in our show, but having recorded three episodes about it, I was like, yeah, it was so helpful for following the 30, not to plug our show didnt our show, but having recorded three episodes about it, I was like, Yeah. It was so helpful for following the story. So it really you're gonna see it, I highly encourage listening to even the rich available wherever you your podcasts. Right. Yeah. And then, of course, you have some amazing fashion in the films, which we love. Oh, yeah. Speaking of fashion, today 30 be talking with fashion writer and 30 Fair contributor, Leahs Fay Cooper, Lea's work has appeared in Harper's Bazaar, Glamour, and Hollywood reporter. Her latest vanity fair article profiles 30 designer Macau, who revitalized the brand when he became creative director in two thousand fifteen. And then later, we're going to be joined by journalist Saras Gay 4 who wrote the House of Gucci, a sensational story of murder, madness, glamour, and greed, which was adapted for the new movie. After almost 14 years under a disturbing and controlling almost fourteen years under a disturbing and controlling conservatorship, our girl, Britney Spears, is finally free. 30, god. 30, Test Barker, and Babies Grey are here to bring you the full story in an investigative podcast that takes a deep dive into Britney's mysterious situation. You might know, test and Babs from lady to lady or the now legendary Brittany's gram You might know Tessa and Babs from 30 to Lady or the now legendary Britney's Grand podcast. After launching the hashtag free Brittany movement Years ago, they started digging more into Britney's conservatorship and the court system that allowed it to After launching the hashtag free Britney Movement years ago, they started digging more into 30 conservatorship in the court system that allowed it to continue. Join Tesla and Babs as they talk to exclusive sources, update you on all the latest news, examine new sides of the story and uncover disturbing truths about our legal system that go way beyond Britney. Listen and follow along to talk the Britney Spears story on Stitcher Apple Podcasts, Pandora, or wherever you find your podcasts. episode is brought to you by decoy. And acclaimed winery in a duck Forden portfolio. Make the holidays memorable when you give the gift of wine country with decoy wines. Established more than thirty years ago by legendary vintners Dan and Margaret Taqorn, they craft their wines to the highest standards using grapes from exceptional vineyards. Ask for 30 cabernet souvenir, 30 noir, or chardonnay, wherever you buy wine, or visit decoy wines dot com slash celebrate. To find all of their wines near you. Well, hello, Leah. Thank you so much for joining us on 30 though rich. We are so excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled. So I wanna dive into your Vanity Fair article, but first, I'm wondering, Do you remember when you first discovered Gucci and what it meant to you? So I know it sounds ridiculous to say I don't remember life without 30. But I mean, my father I I get my love of passion for my father, you know, he, you know, expose me at a very engaged, you know, would take me shopping with him to really nice stores and -- Mhmm. -- you know, explain to me why a luxury item was a luxury item, you know? Like, look at the c 30. -- look at this leather. Look at this fabric. So I grew up loving fashion and, you know, I was always really into it reading fashion magazines from a young age and so it was probably I would say 30 around middle schools when I was like, yes. When I am older, when I have my own money, I am going to the good and buying back. And some shoes Are you older with more money? Have you been able to buy that Gucci bag? You know what? On consignment? Yes. Yeah. On consignment. Yes. So yeah. So when I was in college. I was home in North Carolina for a break, and there's a consignment store in my hometown. I don't think it's open anymore. And I found a a black Gucci bucket bag with a double g and I bought it and I mean, I still have it. I actually carried it the other day to go to see asafgucci. Okay. But yeah. That was my first that was my first purchase and then think maybe when I was sixteen, either sixteen or for high school graduation, my father bought me a Gucci watch, which I also cherish to love it. Well, for my graduation, I got dinner friendly. So 30. So I know you -- Yeah. -- made out better. Also, you got those did you get I know, I hope we got the ice cream, you know, I got the big know. I know we got the ice 30. You know And I got the big one. Yes. That's so cool. So have you acquired any other Gucci pieces since then? Yes. I have also on consignment, fantastic dress from the Tom Ford I have also on consignment, a fantastic dress from the Tom Ford era. It's like, a brown tight fitting 30 with a bamboo buckle. Oh, nice. Wow. So when you look at Gucci, how has the brand evolved over the years? I 30, drastically, you know, like it started off as a small family business. You know, like 30 leather goods. And -- Yeah. -- it has evolved into this massive global empire that so many different types of people and so 30, like, demographics are drawn to. You know, like, I think Gucci still has their customer who's been shopping with them since the sixties, but they also have a lot of Gen Z fans. And I think that's really, you know, like, how how it's evolved. Like, it started off as something, you know, like, very small, very particular to, like, Italy didnt terms of, like, the silhouettes and the fabrics that they were using in terms of the craftsmanship ship. And it is now evolved into something where arguably there could be something for everyone, you know, they still have like a very traditional dad loafer, but you can also pick yourself up a floor length, sequined gown, embellished with feathers worn with a star pastries underneath, it is now evolved into something where, arguably, there could be something for everyone, you know. They still have, like, a very traditional dad loafer? No. But but you can also pick yourself up a floor length sequined gown embellished with feathers, worn with star 30 underneath. Right? Really something 30 something forever. Really, really, really. So coming back to Tom Ford, we know he became Gucci's creative director in nineteen ninety Forden he pretty much reinvented Gucci for a new generation. So can you tell us where the Gucci brand was before Ford took the reins and how he really transformed didnt. Yeah. So prior to Tom Ford, I mean, it was just very it was safe. You know, the clothes were were gorgeous and they were well made and still very, you know, like, covenantable, but it was just very safe. You know? They were not really pushing the needle, you know, in terms of, like, fashion. They're kind of just really relying heavily on the styles and the motifs that the house was known for. And when Tom Ford came in, he really did a one eighty 30 that But it's interesting. I mean, he did so while also, you know, referencing the archive. And you take something as simple as, like, a shirt. Obviously, Gucci had made shirts for forever, but Tom Ford made them in these amazing jewel tones. And then there was also, you know, an element to the styling that was very different. So, you know, you have, like, a satin shirt. 30 styling it, you know, unbuttoned to the naval. You know, the rise on the pants got much lower. And the ads also got extremely provocative, you know. We had, you know, the ad for tiesman where, you know, a g is shaved into someone's pubes. You know, like Forden, like, you know, straddling men And, yeah, he just was rolling out, like, really bold, fun, vibrant, fashion, like, very sexy, Whereas before, I think the Forden the appeal of Gucci was that, you know, it was beautiful. It was luxurious. It was Italian. It was well made. But Tom Ford, I feel like, created more of a fantasy, if you will -- Mhmm. -- for the consumer, like, it wasn't the people just wanted a Gucci bag. Like, they wanted to be a Gucci woman. They wanted to 30, like, a Gucci man. Like, you know, it was just associated with being really, really cool. And and that, you know, that trickled to the red carpet. You know, 30, he designed that amazing, you know, velvet suit that Didnt Paltrow wore. Yeah. Madonna was in that, you know, that jewel tone satin collection from ninety five. 30 seven things got real spicy with the double g g strings. 30 put Forden skin. I 30 it's on brand. Yeah. So Gucci's creative director since two thousand fifteen has been Alessandro Mikael, and I feel like his designs do give a nod to the Ford era. Mhmm. And I wanna talk about how he's transformed Gucci yet again. But first, I gotta say, Alessandro has got quite an iconic look all on his own. Yes. And I'm wondering 4 listeners, can you describe him for us? You know, I think was unexpected was that I had this idea in my head like this guy is 30 seems really cool. He seems like really fun. But it was, like, that on steroids. Like, he had his hair in pigtails at the time. And yeah. And of course, I was, you know, was asking questions about his hair 30, and he was like, oh, my dad's hair was 30, really long. And, you know, he told me not to wash it every day. So I don't Important. Yeah. Forden. Yes. And and, you know, he has lots of 30, so he had, like, lots of rings on and he's talked about, you know, interviews before that he has always stood out. Like, he's always been, like, eccentric and that was not easy for him growing up that he, you know, got, you know, taunted and, you know, like bullied a lot, you know, for dressing the way that he did and for for what his interests are, but he is not deviated from that. I like like that. He also you talk about how he keeps bees and he collects antiques. Right? Yes. He collects 30 He likes everything actually like he's, he collects many different objects, but yeah, he has at his country estate, he has like an apiary on his roof and yeah, he loves bees, which you see what you see in a lot of his collects everything 30. Like like he's he collects many different objects. Yeah. 30 has at his country state. 30 has, like, an 30 on his roof. Wow. And, yeah, he loves Leahs, which you see which you see in a lot of his collections. Mhmm. So can you tell us the story of how he ended up becoming the creative director of Gucci. Yes. So Gucci decided that they're gonna part ways with the previous creative director. And the CEO of the president had a meeting with Alessandro and decided to give him a shot the catch being that he had to, like, redesign the whole collection in a week. Oh, wow. That's a hell of a catch. Right. Thank you much. Like like, sure. If you can redesign this in a week. So so he did. And -- Wow. -- it was a great collection. It certainly was not what we're used to seeing from him now. It was was definitely a bit more restrained. But after that, he really leaned in you know, with his vision and his aesthetic and brought this, like, really colorful vibrant geek. She weird, quirky, very 30 chic, weird, 30, very maximalist, and it's it's like sequence and lace, and people walking down the runway, carrying a replica of their head. And if you remember that show, just, like, really remember the photos. Fun. Yeah. Bonkers stuff. Jared Leto took one to the met Jared. Leto took one to the Met Gala. I remember that. Wow. So Alessandro became creative director in two thousand fifteen, how has he influenced the Gucci design? Like, it sounds like, you know, gender fluidity and just kind of being in step with the cultural moment is a big part of it for him. Right? Yes. When you talked about gender 30, and that's something that we spoke about in our interview. And he he was very adamant. He's like, you know, people say that I, like, you know, invented this. And I really did, like, this has been, you know, like people have been doing this for a long this and I really didn't. Like, this has been, you know, like, people have been doing this, you know, for a long time. I just think that it's in, you know, like, his presentation, you know, like, often combining the men's and women's shows. And also he's made Gucci like Leahs made it like very fun and like exciting and where it's kind of like if you are wearing Alessandra's Gucci. You're like, you know, one of the cool kids. So 30 of cool kids, you mentioned how Alessandro was bullied as a kid for being different. Mhmm. And from your article, it sounds like that experience 30 to have strengthened his resolve to be unapologetically himself. Mhmm. And I'm wondering if you think that sense of empowerment is something that he's been able to bring to the Gucci brand. I do. And I think that that's another reason why it's so popular now because you know, fashion, I think for, for a lot of people, it's how you choose to, to express yourself through I think that that's another reason why it's so popular now. Because, you know, fashion, I think 4 Forden lot of people, it's how you choose to to express yourself through clothing. And I think that what he's done is given people license to just go all out. And yes, I think that that resonates with 30. And I think people really appreciate that. And he told me that it's such a thrill for him whenever he's walking around and and young people especially come up to him and are like, oh my gosh. I love 30 you're doing. I think it's so cool. Because, you know, he was he was that eccentric kid once. So before we let you go, we have to ask what did you and your Gucci bucket bag think of how's the Gucci? Oh my gosh. Okay. I personally loved it. I mean, I went into this 30. Like, I do any, you know, movie that's, like, based on a true story or that's a biopic. You know, like, understanding that some liberties were likely taken for entertainment value. Yes. But I found it to be highly entertaining. And I thought I thought 30, god, god, did did a fantastic job. Oh. Phenomenal. Did you have any favorite looks in the film? Yes. So I loved the look when Patricia when she went to Canal 30, actually, and discovered -- Yeah. -- the nappa. So that was, like, a matching set, like, the top of the pants. So it's, like, all double 30 out. I loved that. Yeah. I mean, I thought that her red ski outfit was amazing. Oh, gosh. She wears that so well. Yes. With the fur hat? And then also 30 Irons, like his, like, home loungewear. I thought it was quite 30. Yeah. It was all it was all really good. Yeah. It really was. Well, yeah, that is all we have for you today. Thank you so much. For joining us. This was so fun. Thanks, Leah. Thank you, guys. This was such a pleasure. After the break, we'll be speaking with journalist Saras Forden. She wrote the book that inspired the House of Gucci Movie, which was directed by Ridley Scott starring our girl, Lady Gaga, and Adam Driver. Clean beauty has become so important to a lot of us and for good 30. Of course, I know I wanna use ingredients that I feel good about which is why we've been raving about each and every natural deodorant. Yes. 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Again, go to hunter killer dot com slash rich and make sure to use code rich for that ten dollar discount. Sarah Gayhorn, thank you so much for joining us here on even the rich. We're really happy to have you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. So 30, everyone's talking about the Gucci's because of the new 30. But before there was the movie, there was your book. Can you tell us little bit about the backstory there? You know, I was covering the Italian luxury goods industry at the time. This was kind of an extraordinary moment in the life of the Italian fashion industry. And it was a time when family labels like Versace and Gucci and Prada were making a quantum leap into becoming mega 30, and it was a time when 30 labels like Versace and Gucci and Prada 30 making a quantum leap into becoming mega brands. So Sarah, I'm curious how you went from reporting on Gucci to writing a book about Sarah, I'm curious how you went from reporting on Gucci to writing a book about Gucci. You know, I think as many journalists I, for years, have wanted to write a book. And for the longest time, I couldn't figure out what it would be that I would write a book about. And one summer, I think it was ninety six or ninety seven. I was home in the Washington area visiting 30. they've recently opened a new public library. And in the research department, the old card catalog had been unceremoniously moved off to the side, and there was a computer that was the new feature in the research department. So I was like, well, let's go up to this computer. And, of course, I'm dating myself 30, but let's go up to this computer and see what could do. So I typed in 30. And spit out the template links. And to my amazement, eight of those links were actually articles that I had written. Oh, wow. That's when the light bulb went off in my head. And I thought, oh my god. I know something about something. And it was it was also enough time to go by nothing said above that their the story had kind of a narrative arc. And so at that point, I was like, wow. This is a true life novel. So you are covering Gucci at the time of Maurizio's murder. Can you just tell us, like, what was your reaction to that at the time? It was incredibly It was incredibly shocking. Mauricio had actually been two years out of the family business, so it was being run by Invescor at the time, and -- Mhmm. -- by Tom Ford and Domenico de 30, and they were in the process of turning it around. And so 30 Gucci was really kind of bursting on the fashion scene in a way that it never had 4. Tom had done a blowout of fashion show you know, the products were starting to sell. They were working on the IPO. And then when Maurizio Gucci was shot, it just was an inexplicable, like, incredible act of violence, but nobody could figure out why and what had happened. There was this this incredible, like, shroud of mystery hanging over this death for two years. Now, you interviewed something like a hundred sources for your book. And I'm wondering, did you have an opportunity to interview Maurizio? Yes. I interviewed Maurizio several times, and I first met him in nineteen ninety one at his first big press conference, Emily Ann, in the newly refurbished headquarters that he had opened, and he was telling his vision about how he wanted to turn Gucci back into a high end luxury brand. He wanted to become the Italian airman. Arriving, you know, the top sort of label in the French luxury firmament. And then A few weeks after my article published on the front page of The Wall Street Journal, sources started coming out of the woodworks and they wanted to tell me that things were not going as smoothly as Mauricio had laid out at that price conference. And the company was losing money and people were 30, and the whole thing was really headed towards failure. And so I started writing really tough stories about this turnaround And then I interviewed him in several follow-up interviews. You know, I was taking my evidence to him and of things people were bringing me in. He was recruiting them to talk about his plan. So it was actually very tense, but at the same time, he was always incredibly 30 and incredibly positive and enthusiastic about what he was doing. So what was your impression then of him as a person, but also as a business because you're kind of getting conflicting stories from the Forden. And I'm curious like what you gleaned is the reporter hearing both sides. You know, at the end of the day, when she Forden, we know he was a terrible businessman, but he had a vision. It was almost like he he conveyed this, like, infectious enthusiasm. Like he really drew people into his story and his 30. Like, he really drove people into his story and his dream. So -- Mhmm. -- one of the things I was really intrigued by in covering Italian entrepreneurs is how important it was and is still today to have a strong vision for your company and I think that he lacked the tools. He lacked the 30. He lacked the skills. But one of the most haunting things that that he said as he was fighting, you know, this big sort of financial battle with Imvascor. They had, like, opened a war room. They were collecting all this evidence against him. They were gathering evidence of his mounting debts. They were trying to force him out. And he was pleading with them. 30 said, give me time. In six months, the Japanese market will have perceived what we're doing. They will love our products, they will start buying again, and the wind will be in our sails. And they did not give him six months. He was out, you know, before then, But sure enough, six months later, that's exactly what happened. The Japanese market came back with the roar and 30 was on an upward trajectory. 30, So, you know, I know that he, know, I know that he he brought in Tom Ford and it was kind of paying off his new vision. So, why did he ultimately lose control of the business? Well, he lost control because the debts had had gone past a point where the Envestor was willing to just keep putting cash into the company and Gucci was literally days away from declared bankruptcy 30- -- when they had a board meeting and when they forced money to out. Well, one of the things that the House of Gucci movie doesn't really get into is Maurizio's relationship with Tom board. And I'm wondering if you have little bit of insight on what that relationship was like. I mean, it sounds like there was some tension there. Great question. Initially, Tom Ford was kind of low on the totem pole in the sense that he was junior designer. But then as people were leaving, he was actually designing single handedly the whole range of Gucci products. So he was starting to build what his global vision for the Gucci brand. And it was in quite a sharp contrast to what 30 wanted 30 had a vision of a very classic, old world luxury. And he used to say that he wanted Gucci to be round and brown and soft to a woman's 30. And he used to say that he wanted Gucci to be round and browned and soft to a woman's touch. Whereas Tom, who had this very edgy, 30, vision of a modern woman and said, wanted to make Gucci square and black. Yeah. And 30 did that. You know, we know. He went on the everything square and black. And so they had very different visions, but I think ultimately, you know, with Tom at the helm, they they catapulted Gucci right into the top of, like, the 30 and the Italian fashion firmament. And that became like the must go to must-see show and Milan, And that became, like, the must go to must see show in Milan. 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I wanna switch gears just a little bit here and talk about Patricia. So in a recent interview, lady Gaga said that she didn't think Patricia took any pleasure from taking people down, which of course is contrary to what a lot of people probably 30. So a recent interview, Lady Gaga said that she didn't think Petritzia took any pleasure from taking people down, which of course is contrary to what a lot of people probably think. So I'm curious when you were researching for the book, what did you discover about who 30 really was and what drove her? You You know, I found, but one of the most complex characters in the story and, and almost the most challenging to, to figure out as a writer, obviously why we can't condone what she I found Patrício one of the most complex characters in the story and and almost the the most challenging to to figure out as a writer. Obviously, while we can't condone what she didnt. It was important to try to sort of dig deep and figure out why. Like, 30 gotten to that point. Mhmm. And I think there were several sort of key points that I would try to connect. And one is that she was very much pushed by her mother from behind to not only Mary, a wealthy man, but Mary a man with a big name. And clearly, Maurizios sent that bill very well. Right. Mhmm. That said, I do believe that he was absolutely head over heels about her and she was also in love with him and yet then came a series of disappointments as he got control of Gucci and became kind of the big luxury CEO that she had been pushing him to be. At the same time, 30 had gone from a very controlling father didnt Odonto to a very controlling wife in 30. And he didnt of became the epitome of the Henpich's husband. And at a certain point, he drew the line and said, no. You know, I'm done. I'm done with this. You know, there's another element I think that's important to understand and this came 30 came out in the trial. The judge ordered a psychiatric evaluation of 30, and it came back that she was not insane, but it it did show that she had a psychological Forden, personality 30. They called a narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah. And that meant that anything that happened that went against her had, like, an outsized impact on her, and she perceived it as a a personal attack. And so that kind of helps one to understand how the things that 30 didnt, not intending, you know, to direct them at her like when he lost Gucci. She's she's given interviews and when she's talked about how he should not have done that to her. She experienced and as a personal attack. Now, quick sidebar, what's Italian court like? No. I mean, I I didnt a lot of time Forden you know, the the the 4 House is a very formidable building. It's huge. I mean, it's like miles. And I describe it in my book, it's like miles of hallways. It covers, you know, several city blocks I thought the courtroom scene the movie was phenomenal and extremely realistic. Like, when you're looking up at the judge looking down -- Mhmm. -- on you, and there's the there's the plaque above his head that says, you know, which means the injustice is for everyone. And that courtroom was more ornate than the one in Milan, but the feeling was the same. The other really key thing about the Italian court rooms, it was the ones that the good the one that the Gucci trial took place in was that their they have cajence in the back of the curtain for the defendants. If the defendants are considered to be you know, at risk of of escape or or or violence kind of goes dates back to the mafia trials. And so, in the case of the Gucci trial, the killer, and the driver were in one of the cages. Wow. It's definitely different than our tort systems. That's the tortoise. And 30, I've been in other trials like, I've I sat I covered the Parmalat, that was a milk company that went through a bankruptcy 30. And there was nobody in the cages, but then there was not enough room to sit because it was overflowing with 30. So we would sit in the kitchen. So I guess also an 30. Wow. Of course, with the door open. Right. Right. Of course. Come and go with you, please. So, Sarah, I wanna ask you about your new article for Bloomberg, which tells an untold piece of the story. Can you tell us a little bit about who Sherry McLaughlin is and what role she plays in the story? Yes. So this is really like an unexpected update to the whole story. And when I was writing the book, I interviewed over a hundred 30, and there was one who got away from 30, and that was Sharon McLaughlin. And she was married, so good. She's first girlfriend when he left Padetia back in nineteen eighty five. And they they actually met very innocently 30 was a sailor. She was in Sardinia watching the sailing competitions. And she met Modi too there. And they had an incident report. It was it was truly love at first sight. And he eventually the following year last 30, but we'd ever really knew why. He was sort of it was like a a switch that had flipped. Mhmm. And I found out that it was because of sharing. And she dumped all my emails, she dumped my phone calls, she wouldn't talk to 30. I know of her existence from other Forden. But there are just a few lines about her in the book that could never really flesh out story. Mhmm. And then two thousand one, when I was presenting the paper back edition in New York in the 30 bookstore, and I noticed a beautiful, tall, blind woman kind of hanging back and she came towards me at the end after the last person who left and she had tears her eyes and she said, Sarah, I'm sharing Waffeland. Wow. And if I if I'd known you were gonna write such a fantastic book, I would have cooperated with you. Wow. So we hugged and we'd spoke And then we said, you know, we went our separate ways and we didn't see or speak to each other for twenty years. And when the first stills came out and broke the of You're 30 and Patecia skiing in the mountains in 30, she got back in touch with Mhmm. And she had a funny story to tell. We just started to challenge. She said, well, I know why. 30 was wearing a white. He always wore white 30 suit because because Adam DrivernbspRead is, you know, wearing a white suit. Right. And she said, well, 30 was a terrible skier. And he always wore white because he used to say if you fell down, nobody would notice. That's a good strategy. Yeah. I might use that myself. So we're chatting and she's like, I'm dreaming about Modi we are chatting and she's like, I'm dreaming about 30 too. Can't stop thinking about him. She's remembering all of these stories about him. So I asked her if she would sit for a formal interview. And, really, it was just about 30 wanted to she really loved him. She was one of the few people who weren't, you know, asking him for jaws and -- Mhmm. -- real estate and she wanted to to share that this man who had so who had such a tragic ending and had so many troubles. Also had moments of love and sunshine his life. So would you say that being able to have that formal interview with her Didnt it change your perspective at all the story? You know, it really told me why 30 had strengths to 30 Leahs see 30. Described him as 30. And I think what happened was that he got a taste that he could have a different kind of life. And the other thing was that it helped me to understand why he was so determined to turn Gucci around himself and maybe wasn't listening to other 30. And it was because she said, you know, he constantly felt that he had to prove to his father and his grandfather that he could do it. And there is one more thing that's very important. And that is that 30 said he always feared that 30 was gonna have him killed. Oh my gosh. So he he knew. 30 knew. And and she couldn't evaluate at the time whether he was just being overly dramatic. Right. 30 30 had a feeling and he was right. Unfortunately. 4, wow. Yeah. So it's been twenty years since your book first came out. Now of course, as we know, there's the House of Gucci movie. So, I'm 30, why do you think people are still so fascinated by this story? You know, these are epic themes of of family conflict of love, of 30. Of ambition. And these are themes that don't really they're timeless, they don't really grow old, even though these events happened in the seventies and the eighties and the 30. And there's still issues that we grapple with today. So Obviously the movie was based on your 30, the movie was based on your book. I definitely called that out when I saw your name in the credits to my exes. Like, we're talking to her tomorrow. So I assume you've seen the movie. And if you did, what did you think of it? Wow. Yes. I've seen it. I can tell you four times. Oh, wow. I the ending always makes me cry. It just breaks behind and the finality of, you know, of 30 death. But I think, you know, as a writer, the the work of of reporting and writing book like this is is often very solitary and very, you know, time consuming and it's, you know, collecting each little bit of information and flushing out each scene and each paragraph. And and to see your work kind of interpreted on such a big scale is is is really kind of overwhelming, I would say, hey, the first time I saw that was just 30 overwhelmed. Yeah. And so to see my work being picked up with such, you know, a top 30, director in cast is is just incredibly exciting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. So we noticed the film obviously made some changes to the story. Like, for example, there's only one daughter, and Maurizio falls for Paolo before he's even separated from 30. And also, he gave her a Bloomingdale's gift card and not a key chain. I was, like, waiting for that key chain to pop out. So why you think the screenwriters made those changes? And did you give any pushback on changes? I mean, I feel like the 30 are very different animal than a book. And I'm a book writer. I'm a journalist. I'm not a screenwriter. So -- Mhmm. -- there are devices that are used and changes that are made But in this case, I felt they were all sort of to favor the thrust of telling the art of the story. Mhmm. And, like, some of the things the family conflicts, you know, and 30 life happened in the boardroom. Yeah. Well, that's kinda boring. And that happened in a lot of work. Right? There are many many family Forden fights. So, like, the scene where you see the family picnic on, like, combo and the and the know, the culture story go to sort of soccer, historic soccer match. Yes. So that's a that's a 30. That's movie language for for conveying a lot of the action that in the book happened in the boardrooms. And I think that's totally fine. I mean, you wanna captivate an audience. Right? Yes. Absolutely. So how have things changed for you since all the buzz surrounding the film has started? I imagine your book is getting a whole second life at this imagine your book is getting a whole second life at this point. You know, it's funny my mom my mom was my editor. She edited every single line the basins. Professional editor. She's now ninety one years old and we went together for my first screening of the 30, so that was very exciting. And she sent me something that's sort of like your child is now sort of going forth into the world and, you know, you're always worried like it's dispute care and 30 or can it stand on its own? And so in a way, like this child is has gotten a whole new life, and it's it's very exciting. Yeah. That was really cool. Well, Sarah, that's all we have for you today. Thank you so much for speaking with us, and everybody definitely check out Sarah's book. Yeah. Thank you, so much. Thanks so much for having me. It's great talking with you. For more on the Gucci saga, check out Sarah's book. The House of Gucci, a sensational story of murder, madness, glamour, and greed. And be sure to check out our next series It won't have any murders, but it will have chicken of the sea jokes. Yeah. Prepare 30 yourself. That's right. We're bringing you the story of the one and only Jessica Simpson. We've got the lowdown on her triumphs, tribulations, and all the damning details about her relationship with John Mayer. You might think you know this sex symbol turned business muggle, but we've got the real story in our new Saras, Jessica Simpson, blond billionaire boss. Right here on even the RICHHunt you like our show, please give us a five star rating and a 30, and be sure to tell your friends. You can listen to even the rich ad free by joining 30 Plus in the Wonderry app. You can follow the show on Apple podcasts, Amazon Music, and the wondering app, or wherever you're listening right now. In the episode notes, you'll find some links and offers from our sponsors. Please support them. Another way you can support the show is by filling out a survey at 30 dot com slash survey. I'm Brook Cifron, and I'm 30 Skidmore Williams. This episode was produced by Peter Arcony. Our associate producer is Kate Young. 30 Shisha is our senior producer. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our executive producers are Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer, Backman and Marshall executive producers are Stephanie Gens, Jenny Lower Beckman and Marshall 30 for wondering. 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