0:00

My dad said to me today in the visiting room, he

0:02

said, listen, I have to ask you one

0:04

question, son. If you ever had to kill somebody, could you

0:06

do it? And I thought

0:08

about it for a minute, and I said, under the

0:10

right circumstances, yeah, I can do it. You

0:13

know, our family to Columbus, we happen

0:15

to be one of the warring families. We

0:17

had three wars in my lifetime. What's it

0:19

like dealing with the Russian mafia? Were you

0:21

introduced by someone? I knew how to use

0:23

the life to benefit me in business. You

0:25

know, if you know how to do that,

0:27

there's benefits to it. But the

0:29

biggest scheme that I got involved in was

0:31

the wholesale gasoline business. And I devised a scheme

0:33

with the help of another guy to defraud the

0:36

government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline.

0:38

Defraud the government on all the petrol in America?

0:40

Correct. We collected the tax we didn't pay. And

0:42

at the height of our operation, we were doing

0:45

between $8 and $10 million a week. How

0:48

much do you reckon you've earned at your

0:50

peak in total? Like the whole petrol scam?

0:53

We're talking hundreds of millions. Those

0:55

guys that say to me, Michael, you got all this money,

0:57

why don't you stop? I said, why? I said, you get

0:59

as much time for a million dollars as you do for

1:01

a billion. So I may as well keep going. Yes. Is

1:04

there one mobster that you had the fear of?

1:16

Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm

1:18

your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder

1:20

of Bournemouth Sevens, the world's largest sport

1:22

and music festival. On

1:24

this podcast, I speak to fascinating people

1:27

who have all lived eventful lives. If

1:30

you haven't already, do us a favour,

1:32

press the follow button and check us

1:34

out at Dodge Woodall on Instagram, TikTok

1:36

and YouTube, where we've now had over

1:38

80 million views. Michael

1:43

Franzese, one of the biggest mafia

1:45

bosses in America, from the Colombo

1:47

crime family. We talk about

1:49

his infamous petrol scam with the Russian

1:51

Mafia and how it led him to

1:53

live the life of luxury with private

1:55

jets, helicopters, loads of houses and earning

1:57

over $10 million a week. Finally,

2:01

when it all comes on top, Michael talks

2:03

us through the 10 year stint in

2:05

prison and three years in solitary confinement.

2:08

Michael really is the real deal. This

2:11

is the eventful life of Mr.

2:13

Michael Francese. Michael

2:18

welcome to the show mate. Well thanks for having me. Yeah,

2:20

really looking forward to it. Have you just, where have you

2:22

just flown in from? Just got in from

2:25

Los Angeles actually. A couple of hours ago. A

2:27

couple of hours, but you know, normally

2:30

it's 11 hours to get here. This time it was 9. So

2:32

I don't know if they took a different route. We

2:34

got a good tailwind, but it was great. Quality. This

2:37

one all the way back, where did you grow up and how

2:39

did you get the name Prince of the Cosa Nostra? Well

2:42

I grew up in Brooklyn and my

2:45

dad was the underboss of the Colombo family,

2:47

one of the five New York Cosa Nostra

2:49

families. So you know, my

2:52

dad was a very high profile figure.

2:54

He was always under investigation,

2:56

major target of law enforcement when he was kind

2:59

of like the John Gotti of his day. So

3:01

I grew up around that all the time, from

3:04

the time I could remember. And

3:06

I actually grew up hating the police. Hated

3:08

law enforcement, hated the government because I love my dad.

3:10

He was my idol. And I

3:12

always saw them as the enemy, trying to harass

3:14

my dad, harass my family. So I grew up

3:17

with that kind of thinking. But

3:19

my dad, he didn't want this life for me.

3:22

He wanted me to go to school, his son,

3:24

be a professional. I was like, you

3:26

know, stay out of the street, you know, it's better for

3:28

you. And I was on that road until my dad got

3:30

in some very serious trouble in the 60s. He

3:32

was indicted twice in the state of New York,

3:35

serious crimes, grand loss and ear murder. Went

3:39

to trial both times, was acquitted, found not

3:41

guilty. But then in 66,

3:43

he was indicted in federal court for masterminding

3:45

a nationwide string of bank robberies. Right, okay.

3:47

And how old were you then in 66?

3:49

I was, in 66 I was 15. I

3:53

was like, for you at school at that time, you

3:55

know everything's going on with your old man outside of

3:58

school. Other kids must have seen what was going on.

4:00

teachers must have seen, must have been all over the press. How

4:02

was it for you? Yeah, because he

4:04

had so much publicity. I mean, you couldn't hide

4:06

it. You know, a lot of,

4:08

you know, a lot of the guys thought it was

4:11

cool. And then I had my issues in school, you

4:13

know, you got a mafia dead and I would fight,

4:15

you know, we would have that kind of a thing.

4:17

And some of the teachers were a little bit tough

4:19

on it because my dad was very visible. I

4:21

was an athlete. He used to come to all my games and some

4:25

of them a little standoffish and others were fine, you know,

4:27

so you had a little bit of both, you know, but,

4:31

you know, it was really hard. Some of the

4:33

law enforcement people harassed us. You know, I remember one

4:35

time we went into a restaurant, I was one of

4:37

seven kids, we go into a

4:39

restaurant, sit down, have a bite to eat. There's

4:42

like seven of them because they had different agencies

4:44

following him. They'd come in, sit in

4:46

a table behind us, watch us eat. So

4:48

one night this, this guy was

4:50

an Esso County detective. He passes

4:53

by my table and makes a really nasty remark

4:55

for my dad, loud enough for everybody to hear.

4:57

My dad didn't like that, you know, you don't

4:59

disrespect this family. He jumped up

5:02

one right after the agent. The agent got

5:04

scared. My dad was a tough guy. He

5:06

pulls out his gun right in the middle

5:08

of the restaurant. You're old man did. No,

5:10

no, the agent. Yeah, I'll never forget. My

5:12

father's looks at him and says, go ahead,

5:14

I'll drop you before you get off your

5:16

first shot. Just like that. And

5:18

everybody started screaming. Me and my brother jumped in

5:20

between them, separated them, you know, because it was

5:22

it was going to come down. So

5:24

we had incidents like that. So you know, you see

5:26

that as a kid, you don't like these people, you

5:29

know. And

5:31

then, you know, I was going to school, but he

5:33

gets convicted on that case. And he give him a

5:35

50 year prison sentence. Five

5:37

zero. Yeah, for masterminding this

5:39

string of bank robberies. It was the longest

5:41

sentence for a bank robbery conspiracy ever given

5:44

up to that point. 50 years. Was that

5:46

his first time he got banged up or

5:48

he'd been in prison? It was his first

5:50

conviction. But why 50? Did they

5:52

just want him off the staff? They want to make

5:54

a make a example. And like I said,

5:56

he was kind of like the John Gotti of his day.

5:58

So they were out to get him. And they missed

6:01

them through, you know, twice on two

6:03

big cases. So they gave them everything at one

6:05

time. So I was a

6:07

pre-med student at Hofstra University in Long

6:09

Island. And Joe Colombo was the boss

6:11

of our family. He had started this

6:14

Italian-American Civil Rights League, tried to help

6:16

Italians with being, you know, framed by

6:18

the government. So I joined that league

6:20

looking to help my father. And

6:23

I went to see him in Leavenworth Penitentiary.

6:25

We were in the visitor room and I

6:27

said, Dad, bank robbery. And I'll

6:29

never forget, he looked at me and he said, Son, I'm

6:32

no bank robber. I've been framed. I'm innocent of this

6:34

case. He says, and we've got to prove my innocence

6:36

because he was going to die in jail. He was

6:38

50 when he went in. I figured he had 50.

6:40

Yeah, it's 100, right? And was that a definite you're

6:42

going to be in there for the whole 50? It

6:45

wasn't like you're going to do half or anything like that. Well, it

6:48

depends. Now, I'll tell you the other

6:51

part of the story. You know, he could have made parole.

6:53

Yeah. And he actually did make

6:55

parole and violated parole

6:57

five times. So he was in

6:59

and out five times, but he ended up doing 40 years

7:01

on the 50. 40

7:03

on the 50. But when

7:06

I saw him, I said, Dad, you're going to die in

7:08

here if I don't help you out. No, you got to

7:10

go to school. I said, forget it. I'm not going to

7:12

school. And it was at a meeting

7:14

at Leavenworth in the visiting room when he proposed me

7:16

for membership in a life. He said, you're going

7:18

to be on the street. You're my son.

7:21

You're going to do it the right way. Yeah. And he

7:23

proposed me for membership. And that's how it started for me.

7:25

I was 19. No, just turning

7:27

20. So you left university to say, well, I

7:29

want to go with the Colombo family now. You

7:32

know, it wasn't so much that I wanted to go

7:34

to that family. I said, Dad, we need money because,

7:36

you know, there's this big myth on the street. You

7:38

know, a guy goes away and a mob helps him

7:41

and pays for him. No. No. OK. My dad had

7:43

some money on the street. But when it ran out,

7:45

that was it. You know, and I was

7:47

the oldest younger brother and sister. I had to provide for

7:49

them in the family. So I said, Dad,

7:51

I got to do something here. Go to school. That

7:53

ain't going to work. So he

7:56

said, OK, but then I want you as

7:58

part of my life. It wasn't that I

8:00

said I want to. the party yeah life

8:02

he said this is what I want your

8:04

the right way I said okay whatever you

8:06

want me to do I do. So he

8:08

proposed me for membership in at that time

8:10

and how does that work in a Cosa

8:12

Nostra in America? oppose industry when I was

8:14

just a do certain things to get into

8:17

the family yeah well you can just got

8:19

to somebody. she had like to join an

8:21

officer do that. Somebody has to propose you

8:23

vouch for you say you have what it

8:25

takes. In my case was my dad and

8:27

then I'm Joe Colombo. Unfortunately were shot seriously

8:29

wounded ducks. We had a big rally. the

8:31

wizards have attempted assassination. you die from the

8:33

wounds eventually. But a new boss ago his

8:35

name is Tom Dibella so I go sit

8:37

with Tom. Tom's pass on now. He.

8:39

Said my have a message from your father he

8:42

wants you to become a member of our life.

8:44

Is that what you want I said yes.

8:46

Here's the deal from now on. Twenty four hours

8:48

a day, seven days a week in all

8:50

called to serve this found me to Colombo family

8:52

when and if we feel you deserve the

8:55

privilege the honor to become a member. Will it

8:57

lets you know any since tell you how

8:59

serious this is if your mother is six. And.

9:01

She's dying and you're at her bedside. We

9:03

call you to serve as you leave, your

9:05

mother, you com and service when on the

9:07

one in your life. So I mean it's

9:09

You know, lot of people think the mob

9:11

is of business, not a business. We do

9:13

business as part of them live. But it's

9:15

a whole way of life. It's a whole

9:17

subculture from everything else self. That's how it

9:20

started for me. Annual: how old he themselves?

9:22

twenty one? Twenty one, and how did you

9:24

work your way through and up the ranks?

9:26

It and other certain levels lock up. Well,

9:29

You have to prove yourself first to get me

9:31

down. And you know look I you have

9:33

to do whatever you told you know it's

9:35

some on gonna be honest with you know

9:37

My dad said to me the day in

9:39

a busy room he said listen i have

9:42

to ask you one question soon as you

9:44

watch that day said if you have added

9:46

kill somebody could you do it. Just.

9:49

like that and i thought about it for

9:51

a minute i said under the right circumstances

9:53

yeah to do it and he said that's

9:55

the right answer so that was kind of

9:57

qualification but then you know there's a lot

10:00

discipline in that life, a lot of authority,

10:02

a lot of respect. You had a meeting

10:04

at 8 o'clock, you

10:06

weren't there by 7.30, you were late. You

10:08

could never be late in that life. You know, drive

10:10

the boss to a meeting, sit in the car, five

10:13

hours. He comes out, you're not there, you're

10:15

in trouble. You know, you go to the restroom, get a

10:17

newspaper, you can't do that. So there's

10:19

a lot of stuff like that. And then listen, if

10:21

you're given an order, you've got to do it. And

10:23

look, I never like

10:25

to be dishonest. Obviously, there's only so much

10:27

I'll say, but the life

10:29

is very violent at times. And if you're part of

10:31

the life, you're part of the violence, there's no escape.

10:34

And that's the truth. Did you find it easy to

10:37

be violent at age? You

10:39

know, our family to Columbus, we

10:41

happen to be one of the warring

10:43

families. We had three wars in my

10:45

lifetime. And anytime there's a war, it's

10:48

over leadership. And it's a civil

10:50

war. We have five families in

10:52

New York, they don't fight with one another. That

10:54

stopped in the 40s. There's

10:56

when there's disputes, you sell you sell it,

10:58

you know, amicably, I should say. But

11:01

within the family, you have trouble at

11:03

times. And so we were one of those families

11:06

that were always a war, not always, but quite

11:08

often. What sort of numbers

11:10

you're talking in the family? How many people

11:12

say in the Colombo family at peak? Okay.

11:15

In all of cousin Austria at that time in New York, we

11:17

had 750 made guys

11:19

approximately. Yeah. Our family is one of the

11:21

smaller ones. We had 115 made guys during

11:24

my era at that time. Gambino

11:27

said 250, Genevieve said almost

11:29

250, Bananas was small, you

11:32

know, so and the locations were small. But you

11:35

know, I used to say to my boss, why we, what

11:37

happened? He said, we like quantity over

11:39

quality. And I'm sorry, quality over quantity.

11:41

Yeah. Well, okay. I don't know what

11:43

that means. But anyway, was there respect

11:45

between the families? Oh, yeah, you had

11:48

a respect. Yeah. You know, you

11:50

had to be respectful. A made

11:52

guy can never disrespect openly another made guy

11:54

can ever raise your hands. You raise your

11:56

hands for another made guy, you're dead. You

12:00

know, obviously you never violated

12:03

another made man's wife, daughter, sister, mother,

12:06

death. You can't do any of that. And

12:08

if you have a sit down, you're sitting down and

12:10

having a discussion. Here's the thing, everything

12:12

was resolved in a sit down, no matter what it

12:15

was, right? The boss or

12:17

whoever was administrating it was there and then you

12:19

got to tell you your story. If

12:22

you're a made guy in another family and

12:24

we're discussing something, you're lying through your teeth

12:26

and I know it. I can't call you

12:28

a liar. You can't. I cannot.

12:31

If I call you a liar, I'll lose the argument. You

12:34

cannot be that. So what are you doing then? Just

12:36

keeping in your mind? No, you have to figure out

12:38

how to outsmart him. You know, how to

12:41

catch him out. Yeah, to catch him so that

12:43

whoever's watching can say, this guy's not telling the

12:45

truth. It's up to him to say that, you

12:47

know, you can't do that. Now,

12:50

you know, I came in as a soldier and

12:52

then I elevated to the position of Kapurajim, a

12:54

captain. You have a little more leeway when

12:56

you were captain. If one of your soldiers are lying, you could

12:58

say, hey, cut it out, you know, but

13:01

you still got to be respectful. Was

13:03

there any resentment to you going into the

13:05

Colombo family from other people knowing that your

13:07

dad was who he was? There was resentment

13:09

for two reasons. Number

13:12

one, because when I got

13:14

made in 1975, they

13:17

had an expression that the books were

13:19

closed. They weren't bringing any new guys

13:21

in from the 50s right to the

13:23

70s unless somebody died in the family,

13:25

they can replace them. But they couldn't

13:27

bring in new guys. In

13:29

the mid 70s, they opened the books and

13:32

they were bringing a lot of guys in. So when I got

13:34

made, I was actually, you know,

13:36

a pledge period of recruit for about two

13:38

and a half years. Guys are waiting 20

13:40

years. But out of respect

13:42

for my father, they moved me up front because he

13:44

said, I need my son. I need help or I'm

13:46

going to die in jail. So out of respect for

13:48

him, they moved me up. I mean, I still had

13:51

to prove myself, but I jumped ahead. So you get

13:53

a little resentment there. And then quite

13:55

honestly, I was a younger guy and you know,

13:57

I made a lot of money and did well.

14:00

to deal with the older guys. It's like everyday

14:02

life, you know, they resent you a bit, but

14:04

you got to know how to navigate that. And

14:07

what were you doing to Anna Tola back then? Well,

14:10

you know, I was very aggressive. I worked

14:13

seven days a week. I brought some new

14:15

things into the family and I was fortunate.

14:18

I knew how to use the life to benefit me

14:20

in business. You know, if you know how to do

14:22

that, there's benefits to it. But

14:25

the biggest scheme that I got involved in was

14:28

the wholesale gasoline business. And long story short,

14:30

I devised a scheme with the help of

14:32

another guy to defraud the government out

14:34

of tax on every guy on a gasoline. So

14:37

defraud the government on all

14:39

the petrol in America? Correct. We

14:42

didn't pay the tax. Is that right? We collected the tax,

14:44

we didn't pay it. How did

14:46

you do that? How did you collect the tax? Very

14:48

sophisticated scheme. Talk me through it. Different

14:51

companies, close companies down. I'm not going to give you all the

14:53

information because I don't want anybody to do it in case you

14:56

want to go back in it one day and I'm only kidding. I'll

15:00

go partners with you on that one. Can't

15:02

do that. No, my wife, I'd be in

15:04

trouble. But anyway, you

15:07

know, it was a very sophisticated scheme. I ran

15:09

it for about eight years and I had the

15:11

virtual month. How many years? Eight. Almost eight. Until

15:14

I went to jail. But I

15:16

had 18 companies. They were Panamanian companies

15:19

at the time that were licensed to

15:21

collect tax on every guy on the

15:23

gasoline. I had a connection to get

15:25

the licenses. I had a politician that

15:27

I was paying and we were getting

15:29

the licenses, right? So I had 18

15:31

companies and through a series

15:33

of accounting maneuvers, I would say, we were

15:35

able to get 10 months to a year

15:37

out of a license before the government came

15:43

down on us. But

15:45

when they came down, we were in

15:47

an office. We just closed the office, moved to

15:49

another office and start with another company. So

15:52

it's kind of a daisy chain and they could

15:54

not figure it out. They couldn't. We

15:56

were always one step ahead of them because, you know,

15:58

I Mean, I had some. Good people that

16:01

were pretty smart on board with me.

16:03

I'm and at the height of operation

16:05

redoing between eight and ten million dollars

16:07

a week a week? Yeah, loose. Oh,

16:09

and also s. Well. No, not

16:11

alter. we had wire transfer. your loss and

16:13

but there was a lot of his offseason

16:15

but arms yeah we we had done. we

16:18

were. So and a half a billion gallons.

16:20

Guess a month taken down American. Thirty forty

16:22

cents a gallon because attacks on every gallon

16:24

that time was nine cents Federal and or

16:27

twenty to thirty cents state and local. See

16:29

head on what you had. Forty cents a

16:31

gallon and better. So. We were, you

16:33

don't pre? Well. Spec Dance

16:35

my eight to ten mil week. Unbelievable. Friggin into

16:38

the opera yeah not a my part, no ability

16:40

are unable to sell out that some theories we're

16:42

not paid up to the family and but you

16:44

know I'm not complaining with we did okay I

16:46

must eat out much of that. Eight and ten

16:48

would you pay up to the family? Nothing. When.

16:51

I first said now my boss who

16:53

com my purse ago he passed away

16:55

in nineteen nineteen at two thousand and

16:58

eighteen. I went to him and I

17:00

said listen junior we call them Junior

17:02

I said. I. Got a deal

17:04

on going to show you more money than you ever

17:06

saw in your life. He. Looked to

17:08

me mean we should. We don't do drugs I

17:10

says not to watch you know I had any

17:13

the I hated with drugs. I see his award

17:15

As I said it's guess is already a mean

17:17

I should don't worry about it I says I

17:19

got it handles it's tax money. I got a

17:21

scheme and I think it's really going to work

17:23

so I see. But here's the deal. When.

17:26

I do this. Everybody on the streets going to

17:28

want to be inbox and as soon as that

17:31

happens we're going to blow. So. Here's

17:33

what you have to do as my boss.

17:35

He said what I said. I have to

17:37

win every argument. I should don't

17:39

play politics. I gotta win every argument. If

17:41

you do that, I should Now be right.

17:43

I'll be right. If you do that I'll

17:45

show you more money than you ever saw

17:47

the for on the of forget your he

17:49

was tough guy Johnny look back his show

17:51

me. i said you got

17:53

i started bringing him that the at

17:55

the height of operation oh is bringing

17:58

them to me dollars weeks of I

18:00

was a lot of loyal people. I was a lot of

18:02

loyal people. I never lost an argument. Never.

18:05

I mean, why would he want to cut that off? And

18:07

I went up against Gotti and everybody wanted in.

18:10

Now there were some other people doing it, but

18:12

they couldn't do it like we did. And

18:15

eventually they were buying everything through us

18:17

anyway. So that's how it was. Was

18:19

it your brainchild? Was

18:21

it your idea for this? I wish I

18:23

could say it was my brainchild, but it

18:25

wasn't. Okay. You

18:28

know, a lot of people think that we mob

18:30

guys, we sit in our social clubs and we

18:33

scheme. What's the next big business that we can

18:35

defraud? It doesn't go like that.

18:38

Most of the time some guys from inside their company

18:40

will come to us. Hey, we have

18:42

a scheme to defraud the government. You'll protect us. You'll

18:44

give us money. You're never going to tell on us.

18:46

Great. And then we analyze it and see if

18:48

we're going to do it. So in this case, the guy out in

18:50

Long Island had a small gas operation

18:52

called Vantage Petroleum. He was a big

18:54

guy. Six foot four, 450 pounds. So

18:59

I was the guy on Long Island. He comes to me and

19:01

he says, listen, there's two guys from another family

19:03

who are shaking me down. They were

19:05

extorting him for money. He said, can you

19:08

help me out? He said, if you can, I have

19:10

a germ of an idea and I think you can

19:12

help me create this massive scheme.

19:15

And initially I chased him. I like the guy that

19:17

runs, right? He kept coming back,

19:19

kept coming back. And he said, come on, Michael, this

19:22

is the government. I know you hate the government.

19:24

We can do this together. I

19:26

said, all right. So here's what I do.

19:28

I said, I'm going to give you a shot. I want you

19:30

to start a new company. I don't know if you owe taxes

19:32

or anything. Start a new company. We start a new company. I

19:34

got a guy around me. His name is Vinny. He

19:37

was my butcher. Big guy, big scar across the top of his

19:39

head. And I said, Vinny, I want

19:41

you to stay with Larry. Two weeks. Let's

19:44

see what he's got. You know, watch this guy closely. So

19:47

one Saturday morning, after about a week and a

19:49

half, two weeks, Vinny comes to my house, right?

19:51

Because every Saturday he would bring me meat. You

19:53

know, he's my butcher. So he comes

19:55

to my house. He's got a box on his shoulder. And

19:58

I open the door and I says, what are we doing? all

20:00

that meat. We're having a party or something. He says, hey

20:02

chief, I didn't meet. Come in the kitchen. I

20:04

go in the kitchen and he puts the

20:06

box down, opens it up and he said, this is

20:08

the first week and a half in the gas business.

20:10

$320,000. Smelled like gas, smelled

20:12

up the whole kitchen. I

20:16

didn't care, right? But he

20:18

got my attention. We grew that 320

20:20

in two, 10 million a week

20:23

over a period of time. So it

20:25

was his idea, no question about it.

20:29

But I perfected it for him and was able to

20:31

put the machinery together to make

20:33

it work. We had the entrepreneurial spirit to grab

20:35

it and go, how can we expand

20:37

this? How many men were in that operation would

20:39

you say? Well, at

20:41

one point in time, because I had

20:43

bought a big terminal from a British

20:46

petroleum and we had some trucks. I

20:49

probably had the entire operation with the

20:52

Russians, probably 300 people working

20:54

around and under. Not

20:56

all of them knew me. And of course,

20:58

when you're doing something illegal like that, you don't

21:01

want people to know you're doing illegal. So they

21:03

think it's a real operation. But

21:07

it was too many people. Let's put it that way. It

21:09

got too big. There was guys that say to me, Michael,

21:11

you got all this money. Why don't you stop? I

21:14

said, why? I said, because you get as much time

21:16

for a million dollars as you do for a billion.

21:18

So I may as well keep going. Somebody else

21:20

is going to get anyway. So that

21:22

was my idea. What's it like dealing with

21:24

the Russian mafia? Were you introduced by someone?

21:28

Yeah, I mean, it was a guy

21:30

around me that they had this gas

21:32

stations in Brooklyn called Gas Stop. And

21:35

believe it or not, somebody was shaking them down

21:37

for money. These Russian mob guys, right? So they

21:40

came to me for help. And

21:42

when I saw how many gas stations they had, I said,

21:44

Hey, you know, I can put a deal together for you.

21:46

They said, well, you know, we're trying to sell the tag,

21:48

take the tax money, but we can't do it. I said,

21:50

well, I can do it. And so we

21:52

cut a deal. They had like six or seven.

21:54

They were very aggressive, right? Towards you or aggressive

21:56

to get? No, they were very aggressive workers. Yeah.

21:58

Okay. Honestly, Import. Your best

22:00

part is overhead. They worked a new a terrific

22:03

right so we sit down. We got the deal

22:05

as you listen. Here's how it's going to go.

22:08

Seventy Five Percent. Me Twenty Five percent.

22:10

You. I'll never forget it

22:12

was three and I and not one guy looks

22:15

images but Mr mobile we don't think that's fair

22:17

I should not. very fair use is why as

22:19

with as your street guys you gonna steal from

22:21

me a little bit I said so this way

22:23

I don't get that mad as but don't let

22:26

me catch your rights I'll never forget sort of.

22:28

three of them huddle up for a minute they

22:30

come back the shake my hand you gotta deal

22:32

on at a school is what they were. great

22:35

get day we we made so much money do

22:37

was so aggressive they brought a day would bring

22:39

in in a day were by and most of

22:41

the. Product and I really do agree

22:43

amherst hostages and giving any paranoia around

22:45

team with the Russians. Are you okay

22:48

with it? No, no paranoia and a

22:50

lotta. Today

22:52

the tested or was other people's your team with

22:54

us and pits and of men need for them

22:56

and to be quite what is huge did they

22:58

not know the full story. The

23:01

people below you, you kept him below and

23:03

I three you try not to. you know.

23:05

Listen, eventually you know you can have a

23:07

problem. You notice moments on the street guys

23:10

get in trouble but you try to limit

23:12

that like I didn't let everybody get close

23:14

to me. in always only few people that

23:16

will close to me but. I

23:19

didn't have paranoia. I wish your snow.

23:21

My dad taught me very well. You

23:24

know to his couple of things that he taught

23:26

me that I never forgot and he said to

23:28

be used to grab a phone used to say

23:30

might see this phone it's a cop on top

23:32

of us ever he says you know know any

23:35

body, don't talk to them don't admit to any

23:37

never admit to anything he would tell me that

23:39

old time and he said to me another thing

23:41

is is sewn a few on I. Went.

23:44

On the street. And we shot

23:46

somebody. He. Said thirty seconds after

23:48

it happens. If you say to me a

23:50

dead that was good I'm going to say

23:52

what are you talking about It does never

23:54

any reason repeat anything you've ever done. I

23:57

never forgot that and as a result I

23:59

was never do is no wire taps. It

24:01

ever got me in trouble. Know informants taped

24:03

up that have a got me Charles always

24:06

very careful. I had a lot undercover investigation

24:08

Tommy lot of of but the old didn't

24:10

work for such as in not knowing you

24:12

got on the cover. Old dell following you

24:14

on attack is platonic information out will you

24:17

know always away a life of me because

24:19

like I said I experience it with my

24:21

dad do around me my whole life so

24:23

it was just it was insta instinct It

24:25

was way of life. Just be careful who

24:28

you talk to. I mean look I. Was

24:30

arrested eighteen times. I was indicted

24:32

seven times. I

24:34

had to federal racketeering cases, one state

24:36

racketeering case, and went to trial five

24:39

times. so you know, and and I

24:41

ended up in prison. So. I

24:43

mean, it was just the way. a

24:45

life Where life was the racketeering. you

24:47

guys Easter Galton. For. Kind. Were.

24:50

I mean I had to rico cases

24:53

and or three and two of them

24:55

involved guess business and then one of

24:57

whom was a big loan sharking business

24:59

that allegedly I financed a leasing company

25:02

that was put not extortion and launch

25:04

Giuliani. Rudy Giuliani me and died in

25:06

on it and. I was acquitted

25:08

in that case to. Take

25:10

a never. They never got me on trial.

25:12

I was I was. I had three homes,

25:14

your one case dismissed and one I've beaten

25:17

a poodle. On the case

25:19

dismissed latin that at the end of the

25:21

government's case the judge said is no evidence

25:23

unity true and out. Dates.

25:26

In order is. A it.

25:28

It's different with organized crime. You

25:30

know normally a crime takes place

25:32

right and you investigate crime and

25:34

you find out who did it.

25:37

In our case, they're investigating us

25:39

trying to find out what crime

25:41

were committing. So it's it's back.

25:43

It's different, you know? So. They.

25:46

Never have anything so solid. Until.

25:49

The mid eighties when a racketeering case

25:51

there is the com a director doing

25:53

statue started come in and it was

25:55

devastating for my life. My former like

25:57

devastating because so many guys will be

25:59

coming. informants. Were they? Oh yeah.

26:01

Well out of the 130 or guys

26:04

working underneath you, there's informants in there.

26:06

Well you know I'll tell you what

26:08

happened. When I beat

26:10

the Giuliani case they indicted me on

26:12

this whole gasoline case. My partner became

26:15

an informant. The big

26:17

guy that started it, he became an informant.

26:19

He got himself in trouble on an unrelated

26:21

case. Unrelated and

26:24

they locked him up. He fled the country, went to

26:26

Panama because we had a big

26:28

compound in Panama. No extradition from Panama to

26:30

the United States. We had a big compound

26:32

there right? The compound is a place to

26:34

live. Yeah we had a big beautiful spot

26:36

there. And I had my own jet plane

26:38

at the time so we flew back and

26:40

forth. So he gets

26:43

himself in trouble, he goes on trial

26:45

for some tax stupid thing and

26:48

he comes to me and says, Chief I'm not going to

26:50

jail. He said I'm leaving, I'm going to go to Panama

26:53

and stay there. There's no extradition. I said you're crazy.

26:56

If they catch you, they're going to add on another

26:58

five years. No I'm going. So he goes. And

27:01

long story short, being that

27:04

there's no extradition, listen to the United States. They

27:07

went in there in the middle of the night, middle

27:10

of the night and they kidnapped him out of

27:12

his house and brought him to Florida. They

27:15

kidnapped him right? One

27:17

of the FBI agents told me, you know he's six

27:20

foot four or five, 450 pounds.

27:23

They opened the door to the cell, he sees that card

27:25

about this big. He says, I'll tell you whatever you want

27:27

to know about Michael. Just like

27:29

that. Yeah he couldn't do time.

27:32

So he became the informant against me.

27:35

So I

27:37

pled guilty in that case. I

27:39

mean we could be here for seven hours. But

27:41

I pled guilty in that case. Why

27:44

did he grass on you

27:47

if we knew the backlash was going to happen

27:49

to him? Well, he couldn't handle going in prison.

27:51

He couldn't go to jail. And you know, listen,

27:53

put you in a witness protection program. We'll change

27:55

your identity. We'll give you money. You know, don't

27:58

worry about the guy. He's going to jail. forever

28:00

because under the Rico statue you can

28:02

get 200 years, crazy statue. So

28:04

you know he bought into that and

28:08

so rather than go to trial I took a plea

28:10

on that case. I had a 10-year prison sentence, I

28:13

had a 15 million dollar restitution, 5 million

28:15

in forfeitures, I gave him the plane, I had a

28:17

helicopter a whole bit and I had a

28:19

couple of houses that I gave them and I went off

28:21

to do my time. So they gave you 10

28:24

years because he grassed you up? Yeah. So

28:26

out of those 8 years, how many of those years were

28:28

they on your case do you reckon? The

28:31

police were on your case, out of the 8 years you

28:33

were doing the whole petrol scam, how many years do you

28:36

think you know what we're getting away with this, getting away

28:38

that things are coming on top now and you're looking around

28:40

and going things are definitely coming on top? Was

28:42

it after 4 years, after 5 years, after 6

28:44

years? Well I kept beating all these cases you

28:46

know so I knew the only way I was

28:48

going to get in trouble was buying informant but

28:50

I'll tell you what happened. I

28:53

was in custody right because they gave me no

28:55

bail because they had to do

28:58

something because every time I was out on

29:00

the street, my lawyers and everything, we'd beaten

29:02

all these cases so they hold me

29:04

with no bail and they hold

29:06

me no bail and now listen there's only 2 ways

29:08

you can hold somebody with no bail. One, he's a

29:10

threat, that's what I said, I was going

29:12

to kill people or number 2, he's a flight

29:15

risk. They couldn't say I was a

29:17

flight risk, I never missed one minute, I was

29:19

always in every trial, everything, I always showed up and

29:22

there was no violence in my case

29:25

so they couldn't say I was a

29:27

danger to the community, they created something

29:29

new they said he's an economic danger

29:31

to the community because he's robbed millions

29:33

and billions of dollars right so

29:35

they held me with no bail. So when

29:38

I decided to take the plea I had to go

29:40

to Florida to take a plea because they indicted me

29:42

there and then so I was

29:44

in custody, they were flying me down to

29:46

Florida, I got 15 agents with me right

29:49

so they're flying me back after I took

29:52

the plea and they're all sitting around, they

29:54

said Michael we've been investigating you for so

29:56

many years, tell us when we were over

29:58

here will we write about this thing? because

30:00

you know now it was over. I said nah

30:02

you know you guys aren't right about that. I said they

30:04

said why did you take the plea? I said I got

30:06

tired of beating you guys. I said you know I figured

30:08

let me give you one win right. I said I got

30:11

tired of beating you and I'll never

30:13

forget one agent looked at me and he said Michael

30:15

not this time. He said I said what

30:18

do you mean? You became a

30:20

superstar they were lining up to testify

30:22

against you because you were their ticket

30:24

out and you know what he was right.

30:27

He was right that's how bad it got in the mid

30:29

80s. So by taking the plea

30:31

I eliminated all of that and I

30:33

got a good deal because

30:35

believe it or not 10 years was a good

30:37

deal. Guys were going away for 50

30:40

years, 100 years. So 10 years was

30:42

a good deal. What for you to say hands

30:44

up they have the money have the houses yes

30:46

they said that's been going on. I'm done.

30:48

But what I had to do any

30:51

prior investigation that they had once

30:54

I took the plea it was it.

30:56

All gone. They gave they couldn't investigate me

30:59

against anything except for murder. They wouldn't give

31:01

me immunity for murder but I wasn't worried

31:03

about that right. So I

31:05

said did you get nicks for murder?

31:08

Did I? Did you? No. No okay. They

31:10

tried but no they fortunately

31:13

they were unsuccessful but so

31:17

for me I said it was a good deal because I

31:19

had a plan at that point I had met these young

31:21

girls now my wife and I was going

31:23

to try to get away from the life because I Dutch

31:26

I'm watching guys I'm in jail guys are

31:28

going to jail I mean going to trial

31:31

getting convicted 100 years 150 years

31:34

I said I'm the youngest out of all of

31:36

these guys they're going to give me 500 years.

31:39

I said I got to get out of here and

31:41

then I'm seeing guys become informants that I

31:43

knew that was stand up guys on the street I said we're

31:45

in a lot of trouble this life is

31:47

in trouble. Yeah. So that's when I planned my

31:49

exit strategy. How old were you when you got

31:51

put away? I was I

31:53

was 34 When I went there for.

31:55

Yeah. And How many years was this running for

31:58

when you're knowing that your mates your type. Men

32:00

are you can look good in the I

32:02

got what. They're gonna back me up every

32:04

moments or artist on to grass and inform

32:07

why I didn't see it until the recall

32:09

Last until I was in and I started

32:11

seeing guys folding. Yeah, you know one or

32:13

two guys. Have you ever done a great

32:16

scarp of new Grim Reaper again? He

32:18

was a captain along with me, right? We

32:20

found out he was an informer for twenty

32:23

years. Nice. That would this guy

32:25

to three times a week so I sit on my gosh

32:27

is going to be a headache for me. He

32:29

never said anything about me. This

32:31

other guy Willie Boy Johnson was would gaudy.

32:33

I wish I like and money with him.

32:36

And. I said my gosh, it and another guy's going

32:39

to put me in trouble. He never said anything about

32:41

me. So. I got fortunate with

32:43

these two guys and than day and

32:45

both ended up getting killed afterwards. But

32:47

I'm. But. I'm saying you

32:50

know now I can trust anybody. Yeah, I

32:52

had my main point: I can't trust anybody

32:54

so this is time to get out some

32:56

maintenance costs in Europe. he doesn't my at

32:58

Austin or manager. While. and

33:02

so many guys went down would inform and

33:04

since it was terrible. Term

33:06

didn't even get a say in knowing you're one

33:08

of the top dogs top men Nick and own.

33:10

I know you're so much up to his autopsy

33:13

occultism. Get in a ten. You. Long

33:15

to analyse. Well my guy. I

33:17

resume when he testified against me,

33:19

I had one of my guys

33:21

in the courtroom. We any only

33:23

testified at a bail hearing but

33:25

add one of my guys in

33:27

the courtroom and when he seen

33:29

the guy he stopped to proceeding

33:31

and he was visibly shaken. And.

33:35

Bit de de Marshes came up to me

33:37

and him and said that guy's gotta leave

33:39

the courtroom I said why he should because

33:41

you're witnesses afraid of him. I she's not

33:43

my witnesses, your witness or mammoths as is

33:45

what is your free of were in a

33:47

courtroom. I. She's afraid because you

33:49

line up tears when I said but anyway, so

33:52

yeah i'm a lot guys are scared

33:54

to there's no question but listen let

33:57

me tell you would destroyed our life

33:59

you know Our life is... Do

34:01

you ever see the Bronx Tale? Mm-hmm. Okay.

34:05

Jazz Palmitary is a very good friend of mine. You remember when

34:07

Colosio says to him, would you rather be loved

34:09

or feared? Yeah. And

34:11

he said, I'd rather be feared because I need

34:13

people to fear me in this life. Well,

34:16

what happened, for a time that

34:18

was true because fear kept a lot of guys

34:20

in line. But when

34:22

the RICO Act came out, the

34:25

fear of the life was transferred to

34:27

the government. Right. Because

34:29

nowadays saying, hey, you either

34:31

cooperate or you're spending the rest of your life

34:33

in prison and we're going to put you in

34:36

solitary. Yeah. And you destroyed your family and

34:38

everything else. You cooperate with us,

34:40

don't worry about it. You'll be out. That

34:42

guy's going to jail forever. We'll give you

34:44

a new identity. We'll give you some money.

34:46

Boom. What deal

34:48

are you going to take? Yeah. That's

34:50

what destroyed our life because so many guys

34:52

became informed. Would you understand why some are

34:54

becoming informed? I

34:56

think there are certain circumstances where, yes, I

34:59

can understand that. But look,

35:02

in my personal experience, my

35:04

personal experience, I've never seen

35:07

an informant get up on the stand, left-hand

35:10

Bible, right-hand swear to tell the truth

35:12

and lie through their teeth. Yeah. I've

35:15

seen it against my father a couple

35:17

of times. You know, and

35:19

in my case too, I've seen people, I

35:21

can't believe this guy is saying this, but you know, it

35:23

happens. But in every case,

35:26

no. I have seen some

35:28

cases where guys, you

35:30

know, they put a lot of time and

35:32

effort into that life, and then they were screwed in

35:34

the end. So they say, hey, what do I got

35:36

to keep this all for, you know? So,

35:39

you know, it's a hard call. And

35:41

then, you know, I don't like to judge anybody. I mean, I

35:44

have relationships guy, you know, Sammy Gavano, Sammy

35:46

the Bull. Yeah. He and I are

35:48

friends. Where was the fallout between you and

35:50

Sammy the Bull? Oh, originally, you know, he

35:52

was one of those guys, you know, guys resented you because

35:54

you became a maid guy before. So

35:57

what do you want from me, Sammy? I didn't

35:59

make that. decision. They made that decision. We

36:01

went at it a little bit but

36:04

you know we patched it up afterwards because we

36:06

got together and said Sammy it's

36:08

no good for everybody to see us

36:10

arguing and you know I love his

36:12

family. His son calls me up. Hey

36:14

Mike how do I deal with my father? Getting

36:18

advice from you. Yeah and his

36:20

daughter Karen I interviewed her

36:22

on my YouTube channel. One of the best

36:25

interviews. I was so honest. Just she was

36:27

terrific. So I mean I really really liked

36:29

the family and I got to like Sammy.

36:31

People knocked me for how could you tell

36:33

me Sammy's hey don't worry about it. Don't

36:35

tell me who to be friends with you

36:37

know. So and there's

36:39

some others too but

36:41

you know the other guys that were they were after

36:44

my time. So

36:46

from roughly about 28 to 35 those sort

36:48

of years you were doing the petrol scam.

36:50

Before those years how were you earning a

36:52

pound note? Sorry how were you earning a

36:55

dollar before those years?

36:57

The nightclub world, sporting world,

36:59

music, film. I was

37:02

very innovative. I mean I just like

37:04

I said I knew how to use

37:06

the life and

37:08

yeah I had a film

37:10

production company. I had a

37:12

lot of clubs that you know I had little

37:14

interests in. I had two

37:16

automobile dealerships that I owned outright Chevrolet

37:18

and Amazda dealership. I had a leasing

37:21

company. I had auto body shops. So

37:23

I mean I got involved in a lot of

37:25

different things and then obviously

37:28

a gas business but you know I was entrepreneurial

37:30

in that regard. Do you not think there's a

37:32

fine line as an entrepreneur like ourselves? There's a

37:34

fine line for entrepreneurs. You can either go that

37:36

way and stick to the normal

37:39

clever legitimate route and it's quite easy to

37:41

flip that way. Absolutely. Yeah. Do

37:43

you ever have any threats flipping that way where you

37:45

could have earned a lot of money going straight? No.

37:50

Let me tell you, I

37:53

get my wife would kill me. I say

37:55

this in church and she gets upset me. I said

37:57

listen I'm going to be honest with you everybody. Right

38:01

now, today, I have no moral

38:03

issue with stealing money from the

38:05

government. No

38:07

moral issue. They're corrupt. I'm still going to heaven.

38:09

I could do better with the money than they

38:11

can. But I won't

38:13

do it because I'm not going to break the law and jeopardize

38:16

my freedom of my family again. But

38:19

listen, the things that I did,

38:21

I had two legitimate auto agencies.

38:23

I had a very legitimate production

38:26

company, except for the fact that I financed

38:29

a couple of movies with stolen tax money.

38:31

But so what, right? Paid

38:34

everybody. You know, everybody got paid. It

38:36

was legitimate production just through we had crazy

38:38

money. But you know, so I mean,

38:40

I kept things straight and I ran my businesses

38:43

straight, you know, other than the gas business because

38:45

that's what it was. So I don't I don't

38:47

have any regrets. I put money out on the

38:49

street. I always had a lot of money on

38:51

the street. But people come to me.

38:53

They can't go to a bank. They come to me. Mom,

38:55

I gave them money. You know, if I thought it was a good

38:57

deal. That's how I got to shovel age. And

39:00

then I had a lot of I was in

39:02

a gambling business, but not myself personally, I had

39:04

bookmakers that worked for me. And

39:07

so we were you know, we were in the gambling business

39:09

and a lot of athletes were gambling with us. But

39:12

that's part of the street. Did you get involved

39:14

in sport at all? As far

39:16

as you get into like involved in a sports agency

39:18

or did you get anything? I did. Yeah,

39:20

I had a there was a fellow by the

39:23

name of Nobby Walters who had he was a

39:25

an agent for all the black acts.

39:29

Big ones, Dionne Warwick, Michael Jackson, you know,

39:31

he represented them on their tours. And

39:34

he decided to go into the

39:36

sports representation business. And I went

39:38

partners with him. What

39:40

sort of percentage did you take? Well,

39:43

I gave him I think I gave

39:45

250 grand at the time and

39:48

you know, 20%, whatever I don't remember

39:50

what the percentage was, but it didn't

39:52

turn out good. Sure. Because

39:54

I went to jail, he got himself in trouble. He started

39:56

threatening the athletes. It was all mess. But

39:59

most of the time. business model was it university athletes

40:01

who are then going to be on your

40:03

book to then be bought by clubs? No,

40:06

he would represent them for their pro

40:08

career. Except what he did,

40:10

okay, which I okayed at the time,

40:13

he was signing the athletes prior to

40:15

their eligibility, which we weren't allowed to

40:17

do. But he would

40:19

sign it, put the agreement in the

40:21

draw and give them money on

40:23

top of that 20,000, 25,000. What to lock them

40:26

in? So there you go. Yeah. So

40:28

what happened later on, the athletes say,

40:30

I don't want to be with you. And I'm

40:32

leaving. And I'm in

40:34

jail at that time. And he starts threatening the athletes

40:36

with my name. Oh, no. So I'm in jail in

40:38

the middle of the night, three o'clock, they pick me

40:41

up, take me to Chicago. I said,

40:43

what are we doing? You know, and

40:45

they told me, I said, well, I don't know anything about this.

40:47

I'm in prison. I don't know what he's doing. You

40:49

know, it was a whole mess. How

40:52

many nights a week do you reckon you were spending in nightclubs

40:54

in your 20s, early 30s?

40:59

You too? Yeah. That

41:01

was the life. Sunday we stay home. Yeah, Sunday.

41:04

Absolutely. What was the, you going in there for meat clubs,

41:06

going in there partying? What was the lifestyle like? It

41:09

was great, quite honestly. I mean, you know, I

41:11

mean, we met in clubs, but you

41:14

know, and I had an interest in some of them, but we

41:16

just partied, you know, just out

41:19

and with the guys a lot. And of course there was women around.

41:22

But, you know, when I got

41:24

into the life, what was really attractive

41:27

to me was the brotherhood, this camaraderie

41:29

among men, you know, I got your

41:31

back, you got mine. I

41:33

don't think there's anything more powerful other than

41:35

a marriage office. There's nothing more powerful than

41:37

that. You know, this brotherhood and this bond

41:40

between men. So I found

41:42

that very attractive. And we were together all the

41:44

time, you know, and

41:46

we'd be out six nights a week. I mean,

41:48

at home, you know, in New York, you stay

41:50

out all night. So I mean,

41:52

my routine was, and I was married before,

41:54

once before, I come

41:56

home for dinner most of the time, and

41:58

then 10 o'clock I'm out. You know guys pick

42:01

me up we go and stay out for three

42:03

four hours I never required a

42:05

lot of sleep so even if I got

42:07

home three or four in the morning I was up at seven and

42:09

gone So when you were doing

42:11

your legitimate businesses, were you still in the Colombo

42:13

you were in the Colombo family still while you're

42:15

doing legit businesses Yeah, what's in the sort of

42:17

the day in the life of Michael on something

42:19

along that when you're trying to juggle legit with

42:21

Doy Well, you know

42:23

when I was a soldier Because

42:26

after I got made in 75 you're a soldier

42:28

you're a little bit more You

42:30

have to report more. I had a report to

42:33

my captain my copper regime I had to go

42:35

to Brooklyn because that's where he would hang out

42:38

So that was probably three four or five times

42:40

a week. It was a grind. I hated going

42:43

but I had to When

42:45

I became a captain in 1980, they elevated me

42:47

to that position But then I had more of

42:49

my own time to do and then the guys

42:51

my soldiers would come to me Wherever I told

42:54

to meet me So, you

42:56

know my daily routine was I get

42:58

up I go to my office in the morning if

43:00

I don't have if I didn't have to go into

43:02

Brooklyn for whatever reason Do my

43:04

day and you know, I you

43:07

know, the other thing is when you're

43:09

in that position people are Approaching

43:11

you all the time. They got a deal business

43:13

this and that so I made

43:16

a rule I had a club called Michaels,

43:19

okay. I I didn't name it after

43:21

me. It was called Michaels already but I said if you

43:24

wanted to see me and propose any you

43:26

had to come there on a Monday night and that

43:28

was it and then don't bother me during a week and

43:32

So that was you know, I've worked during the

43:34

day take care of my guys, you know The

43:37

other thing too when you're a captain in that

43:39

life and you're as active as I was You're

43:42

always sitting down to resolve an issue. You guys

43:44

are getting in trouble. The guys got this So

43:47

it was a lot of work, you know And

43:50

when you have a crew of men that are

43:52

always doing something crazy and you're sitting down and

43:54

resolving it all the time it's

43:58

I'm in my order dealers. One day in

44:01

and his big Jewish guy Jerry used

44:03

to work for me, right? Big guy,

44:05

very animated. I see him in a

44:07

lot and he's having an argument with

44:09

somebody right? So. He comes up

44:11

and use Carson it back and forth he comes

44:13

up and I see what was at all about

44:15

each. ah disguised we seldom a lemon or cause.

44:18

I says would you do we should was

44:20

he starts bringing up to you know mate

44:22

made guys mention in his a brother law

44:24

Marriotts and I so what did you storm

44:26

he said I said well as marionettes you.

44:29

Eye should I told you don't do that.

44:31

You know people know people around here. don't

44:33

talk like daddy says where he don't know

44:35

anybody he's he's a jew like me. I

44:38

will. Who do you know right? You know

44:40

any way related. Gov. Next.

44:42

Day or two days later another made guy

44:44

cause mouthpieces might some important you gotta come

44:46

into Brooklyn's I say okay so as a

44:48

jury drive me and Vinnie members of much

44:51

as driving so we go to the answer

44:53

add meet him at a chinese restaurant and

44:55

we gonna back and rest nice a jury

44:57

Vinnie you guys we here at the bar

45:00

we go back. And is a

45:02

guy damn is sit down older guys get

45:04

two guys who was left and right. My

45:06

guy had introduce us as made guys could

45:08

you can't just got another May guys are

45:10

made with the com was you know as

45:12

introduce as as as may guess So we

45:15

sit down and i see what can I

45:17

do see the so he looks to me

45:19

he said my name is mario. I

45:21

said okay, didn't ring a bell. He

45:23

says you Geisinger around you name Jerry

45:25

Zimmerman. I. Should yeah he says

45:27

I want him dead. Any pounds at

45:30

table? I doubt I saw my god

45:32

Marriotts out. Here's the problem. Jury's

45:34

out in the bar if they call

45:36

Jerry Yang and he sits down and

45:38

he says something wrong. Before I could

45:40

school him, I can't I may not

45:42

be able to save him. right?

45:45

I says a Mario as I had a long

45:47

trip from long I gotta go to rush on

45:50

the right backs go out a boss and Jerry's

45:52

Marios get outta here I go down and dine

45:54

awaits me so I chased him out. And

45:57

we go back. And he's. This

46:00

guy you know blubber by So my brother

46:02

in law and lemon and he said as

46:04

me and as soon as not he don't

46:06

talk like that on want him dead and

46:08

blood old of a lot So I had

46:10

a lie I says mariel hold on I'm

46:12

it I said your brother was not telling

46:15

you the truth is what do you mean

46:17

I saw was in the upstairs the window

46:19

is open. I heard the whole argument I

46:21

had alive right I should Your brother Law

46:23

was disrespectful. I should be here wanting his

46:25

head's okay. You got it all wrong. I

46:27

should but I'm not going to do that

46:29

out. Of respect for you back and for my

46:32

brother. Never lie to me as who. Juri never

46:34

lied to me that you know so he says

46:36

bob above I want him dead as well. Done

46:38

Are going to kill your brother My soon to

46:41

go back and for this is how it's own.

46:43

I'm not kidding you hit three hours this guy

46:45

would not given he said okay let me put

46:47

him in a hospital I she's wouldn't I gotta

46:49

put your brother known As far as we're going

46:52

to go back and forth the i can't do

46:54

it So financing I'm never going to win with

46:56

this guy is gonna go upstairs women ago phonebook

46:58

as is his marriage moment. Do I said.

47:01

I'm. Going to give your brother in law new car. Tommy.

47:04

Won the argument would have a new car

47:06

on me no prob. He

47:09

says by i should. That's. My

47:11

best offer if not we going to

47:14

go upstairs with I target their boss

47:16

So he finally agreed right? But he

47:18

was. He was resentful of me and

47:20

he was angry. So his what happens

47:22

I both jerry on as I told

47:24

you to snap right. Eye. Surgery.

47:26

I don't trust this guy. He was so

47:28

angry with you. Whatever reason I said you

47:31

have a brother in California, go out to

47:33

California. Let me make sure this is really

47:35

resolved. I stay out the until I call

47:37

you back. He. Goes. Maybe.

47:40

A month lady cause me on be sousa a

47:43

H E for going to be in a movie

47:45

business as will you know about movies right? He

47:47

said aren't easy to worry. I got a director,

47:49

I got a script. It's a horror movie to

47:52

a big right now he says semi eighty three

47:54

thousand you my partner. I

47:56

saw. Okay, so I sent him the money, right? P.

47:59

s Okay, a million dollars

48:01

later, he produces most of

48:03

my money, he produces this movie

48:05

called Mausoleum that didn't scare anybody

48:07

but me because of the amount of money we

48:09

put in. But that's how I got in

48:11

the movie business. Wow. And what

48:13

roughly was that? Early 80s? No,

48:16

that was in, that was like, yeah, 80, 81.

48:19

Was it? Yeah. How

48:21

much do you reckon you've earned at your peak in

48:24

total? The whole petrol

48:26

scam? Are we talking hundreds of millions?

48:28

Are we talking billion dollar here? We're

48:30

talking hundreds of millions. Hundreds of millions coming to

48:33

your bank. How much percentage would it be cash

48:35

versus in straight in the bank, would you say?

48:37

Initially it was a lot of cash. But

48:40

then when the government changed the law,

48:42

where you had to be a wholesaler,

48:45

then a lot of it was through wires. So

48:48

I had bank accounts set up in various

48:50

places and it was

48:52

work just to take

48:54

care of the money. Yeah, I'm sure. How

48:58

many like petrol stations, were they petrol stations

49:00

plotted around American different states in the 51

49:02

states? No, it wasn't different states. I

49:04

had over 300, about 325 stations I either owned or operated, released, whatever.

49:12

And then we had wholesale, we were selling to

49:14

everybody, branded stations, unbranded stations

49:17

because I'd send my guys into

49:19

a station, say, listen, how

49:21

many loads do you buy from BP? We

49:24

buy six a week. Okay. We'll

49:26

go from them, buy two from us, right? We'll send it to

49:28

you in the middle of the night. Before

49:31

you know it, we'll save you 10 cents a gallon. That's a lot

49:33

of money. Yeah, absolutely. Before you know it, they

49:35

want to buy it all from us. And I said, no, you

49:37

can't do that. You're going to lose your branding, you know, and

49:39

then you're going to, so we had to stop them from buying

49:42

from us because we gave them a bill

49:44

of sale, all taxes included. That was it.

49:46

They didn't care. So you knew not to

49:48

be too greedy at the time. Yeah. You

49:51

had to be clever. Yeah. We

49:53

wouldn't sell them as much as they wanted, even though we could have. So

49:56

the idea is get as many stations, as many

49:58

accounts as you can. And

50:00

we were up and down east coast right through Florida. I

50:02

had a big operation. Florida indicted me. I think it was

50:07

393 million something like that. Yeah, I

50:09

don't even remember those insane insane amount of

50:11

cash money flying around What are you doing

50:13

in the case? Do you ever give cash

50:16

away? Do you ever like throw out planes

50:18

helicopters and Give money

50:20

away. I must have heard you must have heard

50:22

that story. Did you hear that story? Okay So

50:24

we have a helicopter and me and my partner

50:27

before we became a format We used to go

50:29

to some of the stations to collect the money, right? So

50:32

we were in Jersey and we're coming back

50:34

It was a beautiful day in New York and every

50:36

time we would get to the Statue of Liberty He

50:40

would tell the pilots circle the lady Right

50:43

Swiss circling the Statue of Liberty

50:46

and the exhibit was open that day There's a lot of

50:48

people waiting to get in so he looks

50:50

down. He says hey chief What do you think those people

50:52

would think if they knew we had all this we had

50:54

about three and three hundred four hundred thousand and the Helicopter

50:57

he's what do you think they would do if

50:59

they knew that I says well,

51:02

why don't we find out? I should let's share the

51:04

wealth open the window throw some money out, right? So

51:07

we open the window and we start throwing 20s

51:09

and it was all small bills Yeah, one is

51:11

and tens and everything out there before

51:13

long they didn't care about the

51:15

exhibit They were falling over themselves to get the

51:18

money, right? It was a sight like you would

51:20

not but if I had a cell phone Yeah,

51:22

forget it and so we're doing

51:24

that and then I said everybody get out

51:26

of here because if they've seen that they

51:29

got To find us or whatever, but it

51:31

was in a newspaper like in that is

51:33

something. Yeah. Yeah What was your lifestyle like

51:35

Michael back then at peak? What sort of

51:37

houses boats cars people restaurants clubs? What was

51:39

was the whole if you could explain it

51:42

enough? Well, we had the you

51:44

know, I had the Bell helicopter

51:46

we had a Learjet a Lear 25a

51:49

Much with it roughly legit clear was I

51:51

think two and a half million at that

51:53

point. Yeah back then. Yeah, it

51:55

was brand new and The helicopter was

51:58

it was only about three or four hundred thousand It

52:00

wasn't that expensive. And

52:03

then we had a motor home that we paid, 350 grand

52:06

that I never used. We just had it. And

52:09

I had a house in Florida on the water.

52:11

I had two boats in the backyard. I

52:14

had a house in Marina del Rey, California. And

52:17

I had a house in New York and

52:19

Long Island. It was

52:22

on two acres of land I built. It

52:24

was an 8,000 square foot house with a racquetball court and

52:27

two acres of land and the whole bit. So

52:30

we lived good. And

52:33

I mean it was, what could I tell you? It was

52:35

a lot of fun. Did you ever think about buying all

52:38

these houses, buying everything, you're bringing a lot of attention

52:40

to yourself. You're thinking, I don't care. You get to

52:42

a point where I said, I don't care. I didn't

52:44

care. I had legitimate business. I was paying taxes back

52:46

then, but stealing them, paying them. I

52:50

didn't care. I had

52:52

a tremendous resentment for the government back then.

52:55

Really tremendous. I mean, I didn't like them.

52:57

I didn't care. I just made sure

52:59

I covered myself as best I could. What's

53:01

the one most expensive

53:04

thing you've ever bought in your life? You

53:07

know, it wasn't, let me tell you, I wasn't

53:09

like a flashy dresser. I didn't like, even

53:12

now, I didn't like diamonds

53:14

and all. None of that stuff. Even

53:17

till today, I don't care about any of that. I

53:21

mean, personally, I didn't spend a

53:23

lot of money on myself. I

53:25

mean, the plane and all

53:27

that stuff, it was a good convenience. The

53:29

helicopter was great because the feds could not

53:32

follow me anywhere. We drive them crazy. So

53:34

it was a great convenience in New York. I

53:37

mean, I guess the houses that

53:39

we bought, I bought, but I bought it

53:41

mostly for my family. Honestly,

53:44

I'm a pretty modest living

53:46

guy. Even now,

53:48

I need very little. And I was the

53:50

same way back then. But I had

53:53

a lot of guys around me. Listen,

53:55

when I had all my guys, I never

53:58

forget, I sat down. 15 closest guys

54:01

to me. I set them down and

54:03

I said listen if any of you guys want to

54:05

get made you want to be part of this life

54:08

not going to happen with me. I'm not going

54:10

to propose you not going to happen. You want your

54:12

stripes this is not the place

54:14

for you if you want to go it's okay

54:16

no resentment fine and they

54:18

said well why? I said it's very simple I'm going to put

54:20

a lot of effort into you and if

54:22

you become a made guy I lose you. You're your

54:24

own man at that point. You don't owe me anything

54:26

I'm done you know maybe Marley you owe me something

54:29

but what good is that you know? I

54:31

said so you're free to go. I said

54:33

however if you want to

54:35

make money this is the place to be

54:37

because I'm going to make these all very wealthy.

54:40

Nobody left you know money

54:42

is important. I mean what they did

54:44

afterwards but and that was

54:46

my feeling and you know I treated

54:49

everybody well. Everybody made a lot

54:51

of money around me and you know

54:53

and a lot of the crews

54:55

resented us for it quite honestly.

54:57

Who are the crews? I mean the other

54:59

guys that seen it you know yeah you

55:01

have to navigate that in that life. People

55:03

are always looking at you you know.

55:06

Were you on your way up to the

55:08

underboss or the next level of the family

55:11

before you got next? My

55:13

father's strong desire

55:15

was to make me be

55:17

the boss. He said he

55:19

used to tell me buy your time you

55:21

know because my father still was very

55:23

well respected even though he kept going

55:25

back to jail and I said to them dad if you

55:27

keep going back to jail nothing's gonna happen here but

55:30

honestly didn't want it because it's so much work

55:33

you know. You got these guys around you all

55:35

the time and I hated going to Brooklyn. I

55:37

wanted to be in Florida. I wanted to be

55:39

in California. I was more the younger breed you

55:41

know. I was having a good time aside

55:44

from everything else but they were planning

55:46

to make me the boss or the underboss

55:48

because my boss had a son Ali

55:51

boy who's doing life in prison now. For

55:53

what is the law for? Rico

55:55

murder Rico murder like everybody. Yeah.

55:57

Rico murder case and he. my

56:00

son. We were very close. So they

56:03

were grooming us to take over the family at some

56:05

point. And when I walked away,

56:07

he actually did become acting boss because

56:10

his father went to jail. And

56:12

I would have been acting underboss until

56:15

we became official when our father said, okay,

56:17

this is it. But you

56:19

know, when I decided to leave, that was the

56:21

end of that. But yeah, they were grooming me

56:23

and probably would have happened. No,

56:28

I honestly did not. I

56:30

had enough eyes on me, you know, and when

56:32

I'm especially when I'm watching, which happening to everybody

56:34

else, you know, look at my father, you know,

56:37

I want to, I want to be clear, because I know we've been talking

56:39

a lot about the life. I

56:42

call that life an evil lifestyle. I'm

56:44

not calling the guys evil. I was one of them,

56:47

I happen to be very fortunate, but I

56:49

don't know any family of

56:52

any member of that life that hasn't been destroyed, including

56:55

my own, not my wife and kids. My

56:57

mother spent 33 years without

56:59

her husband. When she died in 2012, I

57:02

can only describe her relationship with my

57:05

dad as being ugly. Because she blamed him

57:07

for everything that went wrong. What went wrong? Sister

57:10

27 years old died as overdose

57:12

of drugs. I can't even be I'm

57:14

going to tell you this, I'm gonna make an admission. More

57:17

people got hurt from

57:19

me because of my sister than

57:22

because of that life. I go

57:24

into a club in Queens, I'm looking for her at night,

57:26

I see her in Queens with some derelict

57:28

drug addicts hanging around her and I would lose

57:30

my mind. You know, I had to pull her

57:32

out of there. Finally she overdosed. 27 years old. My

57:36

brother 25 years a drug addict. What

57:39

I had to do to keep him alive

57:41

on the street because he was robbed this

57:43

guy robbed that guy. If he wasn't my

57:45

father's son and my brother, he'd have been

57:47

dead a long time ago. Right? He's alive

57:49

now but his life he's off the drugs

57:51

and everything but he works in a rehab.

57:54

He's got to go to AA meetings

57:56

all the time. You know, it's terrible lonely

57:58

guy. My younger sister, 41

58:00

years old, never mentally strong, she dies at 41.

58:04

The whole family is destroyed. And every

58:06

family of every member is same thing,

58:08

similar. John Gotti's from there, they're all

58:11

the same. So any lifestyle that does

58:13

that to a family is no good.

58:16

And that's why, you know, for the past 25 years,

58:18

I've been speaking to juveniles

58:20

and these gangbangers and going into

58:22

prisons and juvenile halls, get away

58:24

from that life. You're

58:27

going to it's a dead end street. Have you

58:29

ever seen family members turn on each other? Have

58:31

you ever turned on each other in a family?

58:33

Oh, absolutely. It's it happens. I mean, look,

58:36

my brother testified against my father and

58:38

put my father back in jail. What

58:40

he testified against your? Yes. My,

58:42

my, my brother got my father violated

58:45

in his parole. We didn't know it.

58:47

He was talking to the cops. And

58:50

then he became an informant, went in a

58:52

witness protection program and testified

58:54

against my dad when my dad was 93

58:56

years old and put my father back

58:58

in jail for eight years. My father was released at

59:00

the age of 100. Thanks

59:03

to my brother. Oh

59:06

my god. So how did you react

59:09

when you knew your brother did that to your old man? Well,

59:12

listen, I knew my brother. I

59:14

had told my father, I said, Dad, you

59:16

cannot trust him. He's a drug addict. You

59:18

know, they do crazy things, but I love

59:20

my brother. So it's hard. I still love

59:22

my brother, you know? But

59:25

my dad had a soft spot and

59:28

was hanging around. My brother was wired. You

59:30

know, my dad said some bad things

59:33

to him. And he's talking to his son and

59:36

ended up going to

59:38

jail for eight years based upon my brother's testimony.

59:40

From the age of 93, when he was out,

59:42

he got put back here. He was out on

59:44

parole. He had his parole was

59:47

violated. Right? Yeah. He gets out on that

59:49

didn't realize my brother violated him because they

59:51

didn't tell him who the witness was. He

59:54

gets out still hanging with my brother.

59:56

My brother's wired along with another

59:58

guy. And he He gets indicted on

1:00:00

another case. My brother testifies in court. I

1:00:02

was stunned. I was there during a trial.

1:00:05

And my father gets convicted and gets eight years. Geez.

1:00:08

Yeah. So. What's

1:00:11

going for your head then? When you found

1:00:13

out your brother had done that? And I, you

1:00:15

know, I said, what is he going

1:00:17

to say about me? You know, that's the first thing you

1:00:19

also you think, but he didn't, my

1:00:21

brother loved me because he, you know, look,

1:00:24

I raised a kid. I really did. And

1:00:27

kept him alive. And

1:00:29

I didn't see my brother for 10 years. Right.

1:00:32

And after he testified, and then I had

1:00:35

a 70th birthday and my wife,

1:00:37

who's loved my brother, invited

1:00:39

him to the birthday party. I was stunned. And

1:00:42

you didn't know? No, I didn't know it was coming. And when

1:00:44

I saw him, it was like, whoa. And

1:00:47

that was two years ago. So we've been

1:00:49

close ever since, you know, and, and, uh,

1:00:53

but it's, uh, I mean, any life can

1:00:55

turn a son against his father. And why?

1:00:57

Why? Why? There's

1:01:00

a reason why your brother turned against your old man. You know,

1:01:02

you know what it is? If you, if

1:01:05

you listen to my brother, he

1:01:07

looks, he'll say, how did we

1:01:09

survive this crazy turbulent? My house

1:01:12

was crazy. Yeah.

1:01:15

Right. How did we survive it? And I said,

1:01:17

well, you guys didn't. I

1:01:19

just happened to be blessed. I did. But

1:01:22

you guys really didn't. And

1:01:24

when you listen to him, you kind

1:01:26

of understand. He had resentment

1:01:29

towards my dad, you know,

1:01:31

for a lot of things. And I was always

1:01:33

anti my brother about what he did until I

1:01:36

really had a heart to heart with him. And

1:01:38

he made me understand some things that I didn't know he was

1:01:40

going through. And

1:01:43

my sister, the same thing, you

1:01:45

know, and I, I

1:01:47

100% attribute, excuse me, their challenges

1:01:49

to my dad being away. My

1:01:52

mother was a very difficult woman. Very,

1:01:54

very difficult, very strong, very independent. She was

1:01:56

a match for my father, but

1:01:59

she was an old. There either. I

1:02:01

mean my mother you'd love her one minute

1:02:03

next minute watch your back Yeah, you

1:02:05

know it's tough stuff with her So and

1:02:08

these kids were in the middle of all of that and I

1:02:11

don't know, you know I don't know.

1:02:13

I I just come out of

1:02:15

that. I really don't but I did Did

1:02:18

you did you do a deal

1:02:20

with the police to get only ten years?

1:02:22

Or was that laid on the table for

1:02:24

you if you admitted to everything? No, I

1:02:26

didn't I had no deal no cooperation deal.

1:02:28

Nothing What happened was his

1:02:30

would happen in the Giuliani case

1:02:33

when my partner became an informant

1:02:35

the iris Oh, yeah, Giuliani who

1:02:37

had a lot of pull he

1:02:39

was like the second most

1:02:41

powerful US attorney in the country in New York

1:02:44

He got that witness his district was

1:02:46

a southern district the guest business was

1:02:48

coming out of Brooklyn, which was the

1:02:50

Eastern District Iris

1:02:53

O my partner was the Eastern

1:02:55

District's witness, but Giuliani

1:02:58

was able to get him to

1:03:00

testify against me in the case,

1:03:02

right? We destroyed him on

1:03:04

the witness stand and I get acquitted So

1:03:07

now the government's main witness

1:03:09

against me in the gas case is

1:03:11

destroyed. So they got scared They

1:03:14

said he's gonna beat us again. I had

1:03:16

already beat him five times. That's

1:03:19

when they were willing to make a deal I

1:03:21

had leverage. Okay Otherwise I would

1:03:23

have never made a deal with you. Yeah. And

1:03:25

so when it was ten years they said, okay They

1:03:28

didn't know that my strategy was to get

1:03:30

away from the life. Mmm So

1:03:33

they figure at least now we got a conviction

1:03:35

on him. We got a big restitution big this

1:03:38

we won He'll come out. He'll get

1:03:40

in trouble again They didn't realize

1:03:42

I was leaving. Yeah, so no

1:03:44

they didn't there was no cooperation whatsoever Was

1:03:47

that feeling like for you knowing the

1:03:50

surname you've got going into prison was it

1:03:52

instant respect? Did you run wings round

1:03:54

there? How was it? I'll

1:03:57

tell you what happens if you got

1:03:59

room for another story I got a million stores.

1:04:01

I'm loving this. Okay, but wait a second. Yeah,

1:04:03

a lot of these stories I got it. I'm

1:04:05

not telling you all because I got a lot

1:04:07

more from my tours coming up. Tour coming out

1:04:09

in March. In March. We're doing at least to

1:04:11

9, 10, 12 dates,

1:04:13

something like that. Great promoters doing

1:04:15

a tremendous job. You're in really

1:04:17

good hands with Ella. Ella's terrific.

1:04:19

And Sean. And Sean and Ella

1:04:21

are brilliant. Yes, and

1:04:23

I want everybody to know this is only the tip

1:04:26

of the iceberg. I have a lot more. There's things

1:04:28

that I want to talk about that I've never talked

1:04:30

about before. I'm going to be honest with you

1:04:32

because you know what? You don't have mafia here

1:04:34

in the United Kingdom. You don't. And

1:04:37

I want to thank all the people. I'm not

1:04:39

kidding you. I walked out of here today just

1:04:41

to go across. I forgot the electric

1:04:43

plug, right? So I go to cross the

1:04:45

street to boots to buy one. Hey, Michael,

1:04:48

how are you? And I kind of take

1:04:50

your picture. It's unbelievable. I love the people

1:04:52

here in the UK. I love you. The

1:04:55

British love you. Great. So I'm looking forward

1:04:57

to this tour. So please, if you're listening

1:04:59

in now, you know, we're going to post the schedule.

1:05:02

We're going to put all the links below. Everything's

1:05:04

going to be plugged. We're going to plug it

1:05:06

hard. We're doing a meet and greet. We got

1:05:09

the whole bit. We take photos, everything, Q&A. They

1:05:11

can ask me anything they want. You're here at

1:05:13

the moment for three, four days. You're doing Piers

1:05:15

Morgan tomorrow and a few others and then flying

1:05:17

back and then coming back for the tour. March

1:05:20

15th, it starts right

1:05:22

through April 5th, I believe. And how many venues around

1:05:24

the country are you doing? Around

1:05:27

the UK. I think between 9 and 12, something

1:05:30

like that. They're rating some. They're changing a few,

1:05:32

but it's coming out good and tickets are selling.

1:05:34

So you better jump on board. So

1:05:38

when you were going in, Nick, what was that feeling

1:05:40

like when you walked into prison the is

1:05:42

what happens, right? I'm 34 years old. The

1:05:44

government is mad at me. They're going to give me

1:05:46

the business. They finally got me. So they

1:05:48

take me to Lewisburg Penitentiary, one of the highest

1:05:52

level securities. And At

1:05:54

the same time, okay, all of

1:05:56

the black guys, the African Americans,

1:05:58

they had revolted. In a

1:06:00

prison they burned down in Washington right?

1:06:03

So they move all the these guys

1:06:05

through the out the system. So the

1:06:07

basement of Lewisburg was condemned to had

1:06:09

a close it down but now they

1:06:12

opened it to put tools and fifty

1:06:14

these black guys down. and right so

1:06:16

now the government's gonna screw me. They.

1:06:19

Take me down to that basement. Right

1:06:21

arm handcuffed. unshackled. I'm walking

1:06:24

through. And. All the guys are

1:06:26

going on Whitey we're going to get you web

1:06:28

of of of an end to this and that

1:06:30

night All my God or am I gonna go

1:06:32

to Rio? De? don't know I am right as

1:06:35

you my hand to god as I'm walking down

1:06:37

they have televisions on the T right and I

1:06:39

just taken my play. So. Of

1:06:41

a sudden I met Michael Francis. Two

1:06:44

billion dollars racketeering headed occur on both

1:06:46

family. All it at. The guys are

1:06:48

looking at me, looking at the Tv

1:06:50

at a stud. Share a nice. Says

1:06:53

well as yours is like thank god

1:06:56

Yes And then I had. I had

1:06:58

no problem una point on but. I

1:07:01

never had a problem. Know my father again.

1:07:03

Thank God for his wisdom. He said to

1:07:05

me some when you go to prison, remember

1:07:07

these three words. Please. Thank

1:07:09

you excuse me he said because

1:07:11

imprisoned the truth Everybody to had

1:07:13

no luck. So many guys never

1:07:16

had any respect on the street.

1:07:18

They. Want to prove that there is something in there.

1:07:21

So. You bump into somebody. Scuse me. I'm

1:07:23

sorry you want to jump somebody on a

1:07:25

line because you got a friend in your

1:07:27

mind. Please if if I guess phone is

1:07:29

somebody's hand you something thank you. You remember

1:07:31

those three words. You don't have

1:07:34

a pro in law salon in prison

1:07:36

at exact exactly. Gotta have prison etiquette

1:07:38

to. Have. lost the drugs and

1:07:40

american prisons in the uk rice is

1:07:42

everywhere it's it's you know in a

1:07:44

federal system it's not as bad state

1:07:46

forget it i just as was the

1:07:48

defensive federal on this the state settlers

1:07:51

run tighter attack yeah i mean if

1:07:53

you have to do time you better

1:07:55

do in in the feds and that's

1:07:57

why did most of mine and we

1:07:59

did dove maybe about 13 months in the

1:08:01

state, but most of my time was in the feds.

1:08:04

You do better time in

1:08:06

the feds than you do in the state. State's

1:08:08

rough with

1:08:11

drugs. With drugs, yeah. Did you

1:08:13

ever moment in time when you were

1:08:15

in prison that you had the fear for your life at

1:08:17

all? No.

1:08:20

From other inmates? Yeah. No.

1:08:22

Never had a fear for my life. I feared

1:08:26

the government because they kept me in solitary for 29 months

1:08:28

and 7 days. 29 months and 7 days. Was

1:08:34

that 2 and a half years? Almost 3 years. In

1:08:37

solitary? Give me an example of solitary. 6 by 8 cell,

1:08:39

24-7. Not

1:08:42

let out? They're supposed to

1:08:44

by policy, not by law. They're supposed to

1:08:46

let you out 5 hours a week in

1:08:48

the yard and the yard is you're fenced

1:08:51

in and just one person at a time,

1:08:53

right? But they don't even do

1:08:55

that. They come by at 3 in the morning and say,

1:08:57

hey, it's yard time. I refuse.

1:08:59

Oh, you're refusing? And they write it down because

1:09:01

they're lazy to cops. But yeah,

1:09:03

29 months and 7 days. That

1:09:07

was not easy. No, sure. No.

1:09:09

I saw a lot of guys did not do

1:09:11

well on that. I saw a lot of bad

1:09:14

things go down in there because that's torture. I'm

1:09:17

totally against. I spoke at the

1:09:20

Senate on one anniversary of

1:09:22

the September 11th deal and

1:09:25

we were talking prison reform and

1:09:27

I said I am dead set

1:09:30

against solitary for young people. It

1:09:32

will destroy them. It's mental torture.

1:09:35

But I don't have to listen, but it

1:09:37

was rough. How did you

1:09:39

set yourself apart mentally knowing that you're going

1:09:41

to be looked up for that amount of

1:09:43

time? It's a person of faith for me.

1:09:46

Bible and books that my

1:09:48

wife sent me in. It was really a

1:09:51

faith issue that got me through. That's when

1:09:53

I became a Christian during my time there.

1:09:56

I soaked up my Bible. I had my wife send

1:09:58

me in. 100 books, all

1:10:01

different faiths I was studying and

1:10:04

it was my faith and trusted God that got

1:10:06

me through it and my desire

1:10:08

to be with my family again of course.

1:10:10

Got to be determined in that. How

1:10:12

long was it when you were in prison? You're going, you know,

1:10:14

I want to come clean. I want out of this life. Was

1:10:17

there a certain amount of time when you realized that you need to turn

1:10:19

your back on it? Well, no. My

1:10:21

plan going in, it's the reason I took

1:10:23

the plea. I said, yeah,

1:10:25

my plan was this because like I said, I'm

1:10:28

seeing everybody go down for all

1:10:30

these guys becoming informants and everything else. So

1:10:33

my plan was this. I marry my wife.

1:10:35

She was 21 years old and

1:10:37

I do my time. When

1:10:41

I get out of prison, I'll have parole and

1:10:43

probation. You can't associate with anybody when you have

1:10:45

parole. I'll move out to California 3000 miles away.

1:10:48

I use it as an excuse. Guys

1:10:51

can't meet with anybody. I can't meet with anybody

1:10:53

and maybe after 10 to 12 years they'll forget about

1:10:55

me. That was my plan. That

1:10:57

didn't work out because they were

1:10:59

walking away from the life, quitting the mafia,

1:11:01

the press, Life magazine wrote a big story.

1:11:03

It was all over the news that I

1:11:05

was walking away. So everybody thought I was

1:11:08

going to become a witness, even my father

1:11:10

because nobody walks away. Right. So

1:11:12

now a contract on my life. My dad

1:11:14

practically disowned me and all this stuff. The

1:11:16

feds come in. Hey, Franzis, you're a dead

1:11:19

man anyway. Cooperate with

1:11:21

us. We'll put you in the program. Words

1:11:23

all over the street from her informants. Your

1:11:25

father turned against you. Everything right. So

1:11:27

I'm hearing all of this. So that's in it. They

1:11:29

threw me in lockdown as an excuse. Right. Trying

1:11:32

to get me to break. And then he put

1:11:34

me on diesel therapy. You know what that is? Right.

1:11:37

Pick you up in the middle of the night. Put you on

1:11:39

some plane at the marshals, confiscated off somebody

1:11:41

and they take you to another prison. Right.

1:11:44

Drop you off. You're there for a week.

1:11:46

Pick you up. Take you again

1:11:48

to another prison. They put you on that. It's

1:11:51

called diesel therapy. Can't get a visit. You can

1:11:53

hardly get a phone call. You're a shackled. Lockdown

1:11:56

all the time. So I had several months

1:11:58

of that. And then they threw me in the hole. because

1:12:00

they were trying to get me to cooperate. And

1:12:02

so they really gave me a hard time.

1:12:04

Really, really gave me a hard time. They

1:12:06

get even, trust me. When they're talking, they

1:12:08

want you to cooperate. How much pressure were

1:12:11

they putting on you? A lot. Give

1:12:13

an example. Are they trying to just break you

1:12:15

down for you to go, you know what, have

1:12:17

the information, leave me alone? Well,

1:12:19

diesel therapy is

1:12:22

so bad. It's like I said, I can't

1:12:27

even begin to tell you, it's just bad. Because you

1:12:29

never, you want to get settled. You want to get

1:12:31

your visits, you want to get a phone call. You

1:12:33

want to get, you know, but you can't do any

1:12:35

of that. So it's very hard. And

1:12:38

then, and then lockdown is bad. But

1:12:40

at least I was able to get visits every once in a

1:12:43

while, you know, but it's

1:12:46

tough. I can tell you that

1:12:48

your wife, you married was 21 when you

1:12:50

went to prison. Yeah. And you were 20?

1:12:53

How old? No, I'm 12 years old. And then,

1:12:55

okay, you're only 30. Yeah, I was 33. Okay.

1:12:58

And she stuck by you the whole 10

1:13:00

years. Wow. She did. I did

1:13:02

eight on a 10, which was maximum, maximum

1:13:04

with good time. She stuck with

1:13:06

me. What a woman. The best,

1:13:09

the best 21 years old. And did you

1:13:11

have any kids before you went in? She

1:13:14

got just before I went in, she

1:13:16

got pregnant. And so I had

1:13:18

20. I had one

1:13:21

child that was born while I was in prison.

1:13:24

I got an eight hour furlough. And

1:13:27

she got pregnant again. So I had

1:13:29

another I have one just going into prison,

1:13:32

one furlough. And then when I was in the halfway

1:13:34

house, she got pregnant again. So I had, they were

1:13:36

all prison babies. Yeah. But, and

1:13:38

she took care of them, you know,

1:13:41

she raised them really for eight years. I

1:13:44

mean, it wasn't me. I mean, fortunately, her

1:13:46

mother was wonderful. She had brothers that took

1:13:48

care also. But yeah, she's

1:13:50

she's one in a million. One in

1:13:52

a million. Wow. What's her name? Camille.

1:13:54

And we're together now. We're married 38

1:13:56

years. Nice. In respect to Camille. Yes. If

1:14:00

I don't meet her 100% I'm

1:14:02

dead or in prison for the rest of my life because I wouldn't

1:14:04

have walked away. Yeah. Wouldn't

1:14:06

have walked away. How much weight did she have on

1:14:08

you to make you go, you

1:14:11

know what, here's the Bible, go and find, get out of this

1:14:13

life. She

1:14:15

never said get out of the life because my

1:14:17

wife was born in Anaheim, California.

1:14:20

There's no mob there. We called him the

1:14:22

Mickey Mouse mob, the guys in LA. There was no mob

1:14:24

there. So she didn't want anything about the life. So

1:14:27

she meets me. I didn't sit down and

1:14:29

tell her, by the way, I'm, you know, goes on a

1:14:31

strike. Never said a word to her, right? I mean, obviously

1:14:33

I'm starting to get arrested. She knows what's going on, but

1:14:35

I always tell her don't worry about it. Everything's going to

1:14:37

be okay. And then I go to jail. So

1:14:40

she didn't know anything really. She was,

1:14:43

you know, naive, you know, rightfully

1:14:46

so. In a nice way. Yeah.

1:14:49

Yeah. But you know, her mother

1:14:51

too, very strong Christian and her mother said, you made

1:14:53

a commitment to this man. You got to keep it.

1:14:55

I held her up. My church when

1:14:57

I was away, just took

1:15:00

her in, her and my kids. They would so

1:15:03

strong. It's one of the reasons

1:15:05

too, my Christianity means so much

1:15:07

because I saw how loving these people

1:15:10

were to my wife and kids. And

1:15:12

they didn't know me. I mean, the pastor of the church,

1:15:14

I met him three times. He married me, but

1:15:17

they rallied around my family and they

1:15:20

kept them strong. What's the longest amount

1:15:22

of time you couldn't see your wife while you

1:15:24

were on the diesel? Oh, a couple of months.

1:15:26

Okay. Yeah. A

1:15:28

couple of months. It was probably three, four months. I couldn't

1:15:30

even get a phone call. I mean, it was, she didn't

1:15:32

even know where I was. Yeah.

1:15:35

You know, they don't tell you. Security reasons. They don't

1:15:37

tell you anything. So I mean, she really, she had

1:15:39

a hard time. When you came out, what year was

1:15:41

it? I did

1:15:43

five years. I got out on parole. Yeah.

1:15:46

I'm out on parole 13 months, worst

1:15:48

13 months of my life. Why?

1:15:51

Looking for me, you know, my

1:15:53

father upset with me. The Fed's

1:15:55

still trying to, you know, cause

1:15:58

I'm on parole. So they still had. jurisdiction

1:16:00

over me. I'm trying to earn a living

1:16:02

out in California. I was like a fish

1:16:04

out of water, trying to bet

1:16:07

on the right track but I'm still a mob

1:16:09

guy mentally and then they violated my parole and

1:16:11

put me back in and they said they were

1:16:14

indicting me on another case. They were bringing, they

1:16:16

said they're bringing up a murder case on me.

1:16:18

I would never come out of prison alive and

1:16:22

that's when they threw me in a hole for all

1:16:24

those months but they couldn't indict

1:16:26

me on the case but they gave

1:16:28

me the maximum amount of parole violation which was

1:16:30

four years and I did 35

1:16:32

months and 13 days on the parole so I'd maxed

1:16:34

out on the parole so I did eight years total. But

1:16:38

it wasn't an easy eight years. They gave me a hard

1:16:41

time. So when you actually came out, did you, how long

1:16:43

did you have the fear for? Obviously you're not going to

1:16:45

go straight back to New York. Did you go somewhere to

1:16:47

go you know I need to get away from everyone, I'm

1:16:49

miles away from everyone. You know one

1:16:51

of the horrors of that life is

1:16:54

that you make a mistake, your best friend

1:16:56

walks you into a room, you don't walk

1:16:59

out again and obviously through my you know

1:17:01

almost 20 years in that life on the street I

1:17:04

saw that happen. I'm gonna be honest with you. So

1:17:06

when I walked away I said hey

1:17:08

they're not gonna walk me into a room, they're gonna have to work to

1:17:11

get me. So I moved out to

1:17:13

California. I changed my whole

1:17:15

lifestyle, meaning what? I didn't create

1:17:17

any patterns in my life because I knew they were gonna

1:17:19

come look up to me. I didn't

1:17:21

create meaning, I didn't walk my dog seven

1:17:23

o'clock every morning. I didn't go to the

1:17:25

same restaurant every Tuesday night. I stayed at

1:17:27

a clubs, bed place for me.

1:17:30

I get recognized, some guy wants to be a hero to

1:17:32

make a call in New York. I walk out in the

1:17:34

parking lot, boom I'm gone. So I was

1:17:37

very disciplined in changing

1:17:39

the patterns of my life and

1:17:41

over a period of time I just outlasted

1:17:44

everybody. Everybody I know dead

1:17:46

or in prison for the rest of their lives. Everybody

1:17:50

and then when they started to realize the

1:17:52

feds did me really dirty, what

1:17:54

they did they started put my name on the

1:17:57

witness list of trials that were going on in

1:17:59

New York. One of them,

1:18:01

the boss of the Jersey family was my good

1:18:03

friend, John Riggy, he was a boss. We were

1:18:05

friends. We had a deal together

1:18:08

where every window that was put into every

1:18:10

building in New York, we

1:18:12

got a tariff on. He and I were punishing that.

1:18:15

So they indicted him and they have me

1:18:17

coming in as a witness. It wasn't true.

1:18:20

So now guys are saying, all

1:18:22

of these trials are coming. My name is on the witness

1:18:24

list, but I never show up. Then

1:18:27

I get violated on my parole. They're saying,

1:18:29

this guy, why would they put him back

1:18:31

in jail? So now I told

1:18:33

you I wasn't going to hurt anybody. So

1:18:36

they start to believe that and then the heat

1:18:38

starts to come off. And then they got their

1:18:40

own troubles. He was going to jail forever. I'll

1:18:43

tell you a stat that is

1:18:45

pretty mind-boggling. 1986

1:18:48

Fortune magazine writes an article, 50 biggest

1:18:50

and most powerful mob bosses. Huge

1:18:52

article, half the magazine. They

1:18:56

featured six of us. I was one of the six

1:18:58

that they featured. They had a chart with the 50th

1:19:01

son there, rank wealth power. I was

1:19:03

number 18. I was the youngest guy on a list, right?

1:19:06

And stupid list. Didn't ask for our tax

1:19:08

returns. They made it up, right? This is

1:19:10

silly. Didn't mean. You know what's not

1:19:13

stupid about that list? Today I added a list of 50, 48 are

1:19:15

dead. Number

1:19:18

49 is doing life in prison and

1:19:20

I'm the only one alive and free. So

1:19:24

that goes to show you the kind of

1:19:26

trouble that these guys had. Devastating.

1:19:30

So I just kind of hit it

1:19:32

right. Is there one mobster that you

1:19:34

had the fear of? Well

1:19:38

the one mobster that I'd had would be my

1:19:40

boss because he had life or death over me.

1:19:43

You know? And look, Carmine Persickel.

1:19:47

And we got along great. He was the guy who said $2 million a week.

1:19:52

But when I walked away he took it very

1:19:54

personal. He was a tough guy. Was

1:19:57

he an enforcer as well? a

1:20:00

tough guy. Him and my dad were two

1:20:02

tough guys in that life and in that

1:20:04

family and he took it very

1:20:06

personal. Yeah. I mean and then when

1:20:08

he thought I was going to cooperate, the government was

1:20:10

putting it out there. If

1:20:13

he was on the, he was in jail. He got 100 years.

1:20:16

Juliana convicted him on a commission case. If

1:20:19

he was out, I don't know if he

1:20:21

would have let it, he would have continued

1:20:23

until something happened. But

1:20:26

he died in prison. And his

1:20:28

son who baptized my son, he's dying

1:20:30

in prison. Basically

1:20:32

what we're getting here, no one gets out

1:20:34

alive apart from yourself who's

1:20:36

living a really nice life right now. You

1:20:40

know, to be alive and

1:20:42

free and live publicly

1:20:44

and talk about the life

1:20:47

like I have. Now remember this, I

1:20:49

don't bed out anybody and I don't put people

1:20:51

in trouble. It was never my thing. I don't

1:20:53

feel right about that. It's not what I wanted

1:20:55

to do. But I'm very open about

1:20:58

the life. So when I've,

1:21:00

you know, social media exposes

1:21:02

the lunacy in the world. You know,

1:21:04

I am a threat. So I've gotten

1:21:06

on social media. Oh, yeah. I mean,

1:21:08

it's it's it's comes with the territory.

1:21:11

But you take it from where

1:21:13

it comes on social media, you know, and one

1:21:15

guy's threatening me. So I tell him

1:21:17

I says, why don't you just go to the police station

1:21:19

and threaten me? I says, I know everything about you now.

1:21:21

I got your IP. I know your name. I never heard

1:21:24

from you.

1:21:27

Yeah. Yeah, if somebody's going to come after you,

1:21:29

they're not going to tell you. Yeah, no, no.

1:21:31

So, you know, I like when they tell. So

1:21:33

how has your world been to coming out of

1:21:36

prison then? How many kids you got wife, your

1:21:38

lifestyle now, the way that you've taken social media,

1:21:40

the way you got on YouTube, now you're doing

1:21:43

a tour in the UK, you

1:21:45

become a massive celebrity in

1:21:47

the US for speaking up and telling

1:21:49

the truth without actually putting anyone down.

1:21:51

How's that been for you? Enjoyed it.

1:21:54

Seven kids, seven grandkids now

1:21:56

my youngest four months old was

1:21:58

just born. I love

1:22:01

my wife, we travel a lot. I'm

1:22:03

in the wine business, Francie's wine. Where

1:22:07

can people find out? Hopefully soon

1:22:09

in the UK. I've got

1:22:12

three bottles with me and Ella is doing

1:22:14

a wonderful job there too. We hope to

1:22:16

be distributing in throughout the UK shortly, within

1:22:18

the next year or so. But

1:22:21

having great success in the United States and

1:22:24

I'm also in the pizza business. We

1:22:27

have pizza vending machines that

1:22:29

are taken to the United States by storm.

1:22:31

We're in the hotels and we're going into casinos in

1:22:33

Vegas and all of that. So I have those two

1:22:36

things going. My speaking career I've

1:22:38

been doing for the last 25 years, the

1:22:40

phone keeps ringing. We've

1:22:44

been all over the world. I was in

1:22:46

Australia last year. This

1:22:48

year I'll be in Monaco. Where

1:22:51

else are we going? Where

1:22:55

am I going Ella? Dubai. We're

1:22:57

going to Dubai and a few

1:22:59

other places. Look,

1:23:01

God has been very good to me. I'm

1:23:04

very fortunate and very blessed and we

1:23:06

just keep going. You've got some serious

1:23:08

energy about you. I can't believe you're

1:23:10

72. You're

1:23:13

not a 50 year old man in a 30

1:23:15

year old man's mind. Unbelievable.

1:23:17

Well, my dad passed away

1:23:19

at 103. And at 103 he looked like he was about

1:23:22

80, 85. Good

1:23:26

things. Yeah. And remember, that's a tough life.

1:23:28

He did 40 years in prison. So yeah.

1:23:32

My dad passed away in February

1:23:35

of the pandemic and

1:23:37

within three days he was gone. I don't

1:23:39

think, we didn't know about COVID at that

1:23:41

point. I think he was one of the

1:23:43

first victims of COVID. What's

1:23:47

it been like also, just before we finish

1:23:49

up, you go in on Mike Tyson's hotboxing.

1:23:52

What was that like? I

1:23:54

love Mike. He's extremely sincere. smart.

1:24:00

You know these little nuggets of wisdom

1:24:02

that comes out. He's just, I like

1:24:04

the guy a lot. You know we

1:24:06

were we were doing some things together.

1:24:08

He's tough to deal with because he's

1:24:10

all over the place you know but

1:24:13

I love Mike. I mean he's a good guy and

1:24:16

he's very sincere and he's turned his life around a

1:24:18

big way. What's he like doing a podcast when someone's

1:24:20

smoking a joint and you're not? Well

1:24:22

he no he he offered it to me.

1:24:25

I said Mike I'm gonna be the first

1:24:27

one that turns you down. Don't give me

1:24:29

that stuff right. He said okay okay. Yeah

1:24:32

he he's quite often

1:24:34

doing that. Some character isn't he? Oh yeah. And also

1:24:36

when someone like Donald Trump back in the day did

1:24:38

he have to go through you to buy all properties

1:24:41

in New York? He

1:24:43

didn't go through us to buy properties

1:24:45

but to get his buildings done productively

1:24:47

and on time he had to deal

1:24:49

with us. Like every other developer, every

1:24:52

other developer from Helmsley and Gauterman and all of

1:24:54

them, we control the unions. You want to get

1:24:56

something done you play ball. It was very simple.

1:24:59

That's the New York way. Back

1:25:01

then. You're

1:25:04

a man's man right and I

1:25:06

can see what your thoughts on the way the world has

1:25:08

gone now. Do you think it's gone soft and what your

1:25:10

thoughts on Andrew Tate and the words that he's got to

1:25:12

say? I like Andrew.

1:25:14

Andrew and I communicate. I

1:25:17

like his messaging with

1:25:19

respect to making men be

1:25:21

men and he's got a huge

1:25:23

following of young men that shows you

1:25:26

just how much they need a mentor.

1:25:28

Yeah. You know same in the United

1:25:30

States okay. So I like what he stands for

1:25:32

in that way. I know

1:25:34

he can be abrasive at times but

1:25:37

I think you got to take things in

1:25:39

context to what he's saying you know. I

1:25:41

mean look I love my

1:25:43

wife. I she's she's

1:25:46

better than me as far as I'm

1:25:48

concerned. I have five daughters you know

1:25:50

that and they're all very independent you

1:25:52

know every single one of them. My

1:25:54

wife very independent but you know

1:25:56

what I what I hate

1:25:58

is that So,

1:26:00

when you're telling men to be men,

1:26:02

people think you're demeaning women in some

1:26:05

way. But when you're telling men to

1:26:07

be men, you're actually benefiting

1:26:09

women. We each have our role

1:26:11

in life, you know? So I mean,

1:26:13

look, I don't like what they did with Andrew. You

1:26:16

know, I think I don't like that. I

1:26:18

mean, they lock him up, you know, trying to build

1:26:21

a case. I understand that. I've been through it so

1:26:23

many times, you know, and I

1:26:25

understand what he's saying. And again, I understand he

1:26:27

can be abrasive at times. I don't agree with

1:26:29

everything he says, but I agree

1:26:31

with most of what he's trying to do. Agree.

1:26:34

So, you agree. Now, what do I think? You

1:26:36

know, we're going to be in another six hours

1:26:39

before getting into politics. I'm loving all of this.

1:26:41

I just want to, I just had a, you

1:26:43

know, I have a big YouTube platform, but certain

1:26:45

things on YouTube, you got to be careful. So

1:26:47

now I'm on Rumble as of yesterday. And

1:26:50

we, you can speak your

1:26:52

mind on it. Yeah. And I have a

1:26:54

lot to say, you know, listen, my country

1:26:56

is falling apart. This guy

1:26:59

in office. Well, Biden. Oh my

1:27:01

God. Yeah. Do you think

1:27:03

Trump will get back in? Do you want Trump to get back in?

1:27:05

I do. Yeah.

1:27:07

Because listen, it's not about

1:27:09

personality. You know, I don't care

1:27:12

what Trump did with a woman 20 years ago. I

1:27:14

don't care all this stuff. I want to know what

1:27:16

he's doing for my country. His four

1:27:18

years as president was very good for

1:27:20

our country. His policies were good for

1:27:23

our country. That's all I

1:27:25

care about. I'm not into his, what he did.

1:27:27

I'm not there to judge him personally like that.

1:27:30

I didn't like some of his tweets and I

1:27:32

thought sometimes Donald don't fight with these people. Let

1:27:34

them talk and leave it alone. You

1:27:36

know, but I want him to come back.

1:27:38

We need somebody to save America. America's

1:27:41

in trouble. Trust me. Same

1:27:43

as the UK. Listen, what's happening. I want to

1:27:45

tell you this. There's two things and I

1:27:47

don't mind saying it with Biden. It's

1:27:50

nothing personal. If he was doing a good job, I would say

1:27:52

it. Okay. But two

1:27:54

things. One, I spoke to 850 border patrol

1:27:57

agents, state of Texas, and

1:27:59

they said to me. Michael, we're not even getting 10% of

1:28:03

the drugs that are coming over this country. Not even 10%,

1:28:05

okay? That's

1:28:07

number one. Number two. From Mexico.

1:28:10

From Mexico. Or they're coming, you

1:28:12

know, from China, creating that, going through Mexico, coming over the border. He

1:28:14

said the gotaways, he said

1:28:17

the percentage of gotaways that are getting

1:28:19

away is high enough. We

1:28:21

don't know how many have gotten away that we don't know about.

1:28:24

We don't know who these people are. They're coming

1:28:26

into our country. They're coming into the city. And

1:28:28

listen, my grandparents were immigrants, but they came in

1:28:30

there the right way. What's

1:28:32

going on in that country is crazy. So

1:28:35

I have a real resentment with respect

1:28:38

to drugs because two

1:28:40

people in my family, number one.

1:28:42

Number two, my daughters would

1:28:45

have been his, her fiance. My

1:28:47

daughter's 25 years old now. This kid

1:28:49

worked for me. Wonderful kid, 24. He

1:28:52

did all my video work on YouTube, right? I'm

1:28:55

in Chicago speaking. I'm coming back

1:28:57

that morning. I'm telling him where he had to go.

1:28:59

We were doing something for our pizza thing. He had

1:29:01

to go the following morning. So he

1:29:03

took an Adderall in my house.

1:29:06

He was living in my guest house. Took

1:29:08

an Adderall in my house that was laced

1:29:10

with fentanyl, dropped dead on the bathroom floor

1:29:12

with dead within seven minutes. He

1:29:16

was poisoned. Now why

1:29:18

am I so resentful? Because if

1:29:21

we have a hundred thousand people dying of

1:29:25

fentanyl and opioid overdoses,

1:29:27

you're the president of the United States. You know

1:29:29

this is happening at our border and you're allowing

1:29:32

it to happen. Mob guys on the

1:29:34

street wouldn't do that. We protected

1:29:36

our communities and our neighborhoods. We would not

1:29:38

do that. How could you people

1:29:40

have trust in you to protect us and

1:29:42

this is what you're allowing? That's

1:29:45

number one. Number two, I'm going to say this. No arrest.

1:29:48

No hate. No affirming surgery. You

1:29:51

know what that is. It's mutilation for

1:29:53

young people. It's mutilation. Look it up.

1:29:55

Don't listen to them. Yeah,

1:29:58

but I'm just talking about young kids changing. gender

1:30:00

and going through surgery. It's

1:30:02

mutilation. It's life changing. You

1:30:04

never recover from it. We

1:30:06

have a president from the White House

1:30:08

steps that says banning

1:30:11

gender affirming surgery in minors

1:30:15

is both outrageous and

1:30:17

immoral. I'm

1:30:19

a father of seven and a grandpa,

1:30:21

a grandfather said, how could you say

1:30:23

that? What kind of human being are you?

1:30:26

Forget what he does is doing for the

1:30:28

rest of the world. Forget our economy stinks.

1:30:30

Forget the fact that he's, listen,

1:30:35

how many Rico indictments? I said

1:30:37

I had three Rico indictments. I

1:30:40

said I had 18 shell companies.

1:30:44

He beat me by two. They

1:30:46

have 20 him and Hunter Biden. That's

1:30:48

a Rico indictment waiting to happen. So,

1:30:51

you know, basically saying the government corrupts, right?

1:30:53

100%. Yeah. 100%. And

1:30:56

look, I'm on rumble to say the same. And

1:30:58

the reason I'm not, I'm not gaining anything by

1:31:00

it, but you know, to those who

1:31:02

have been given much, much as expected in

1:31:04

return, I have a platform and I see

1:31:07

my country falling apart. I

1:31:09

mean, people in a, in LA, if you want

1:31:11

to go get toothpaste, you got to call the

1:31:13

people that it's behind the glass because you can

1:31:15

come in and steal $950 and walk

1:31:18

out of the store. If the security stops

1:31:20

you, they get fired. Yeah. So

1:31:23

people are allowed to steal up to

1:31:25

$950. Nothing's happening. Nothing. My God. You

1:31:29

think I'm making this up? No, I hear you. It sounds like

1:31:31

a failure. It does sound like a failure. It's like you can

1:31:33

never have people are robbing in England and getting away. They're just

1:31:35

going in, just grabbing all the night jackets or no one's going

1:31:38

to nick them. There's not enough police on the ground. And

1:31:40

if an organized crime guys smack somebody in

1:31:42

the face, it gets 10 years. Yeah. We

1:31:45

could talk about this for hours. Yes. Absolute

1:31:47

hours. Before we finish up here,

1:31:52

tell me where people can find you. Well,

1:31:55

they can find me on tour here in the UK pretty

1:31:58

soon. Really. And

1:32:00

I got to say it again I'm really looking forward

1:32:03

to it and the reason being because of the experience

1:32:05

I had when I was here a year ago People

1:32:08

were so wonderful and we have so much

1:32:10

more to tell this time around so I'm

1:32:12

really hoping that people jump on board here

1:32:16

For all of you in Liverpool. I have to say

1:32:18

this. It was the best time

1:32:20

I was a crazy Beatles man and going

1:32:22

into the cave We had such a blast

1:32:25

that was like I gotta tell you the

1:32:27

cover bands if you close your eyes Yeah,

1:32:30

oh, it's amazing. I can't wait to get

1:32:32

back there. But anyway I'm

1:32:35

all over YouTube at Michael Francis. You can get

1:32:37

me on Instagram. You get me on X Now

1:32:40

I'm on rumble as of yesterday and I think our

1:32:43

first video is already like 160,000 grew up there quickly

1:32:47

so I'm glad people are jumping on and

1:32:51

Michael Francis calm is my website Friends East

1:32:53

wine calm is the other website so you

1:32:55

can find me any we're still still doing

1:32:57

loads of stuff But all legit all

1:32:59

legit a hundred percent. It's the only way

1:33:02

to go. I've absolutely loved this Michael I

1:33:04

enjoyed it also. Yeah, man. I've really enjoyed this. I

1:33:06

thank you for taking your time and doing this podcast

1:33:09

with me appreciate it Thanks for having me. You're a

1:33:11

gentleman. Thank you. Good man. I wish you the best

1:33:24

You