0:00

I've been in with some really horrible,

0:02

tough, crazy people, Charlie and people like,

0:05

I've never been this scared. Why?

0:08

Have you ever been in a prison where it's massively

0:10

kicked off or it's out of control? Oh mate, yeah.

0:12

I used to get it all the time in the

0:14

unit with the IRA. Do not have sympathy for these

0:17

blokes because they will shove it right up your arse.

0:19

But have empathy. That's a different thing. That's a... That

0:22

could be me. I've spent a lot

0:24

of time with Charlie Bronson. Charlie only responds really

0:26

to a certain type of officer. You've got to

0:28

take a few risks, which I did on a

0:30

couple of occasions. There was one occasion where

0:32

we were going out on a yard. I want to go

0:34

in and take the piss out of him. And he's going

0:37

to take the piss out of me and we're going to

0:39

have a good laugh. And my mate, Sean, behind him, is

0:41

there. He's looking at me going... And

0:44

Charlie's looked at me and gone, ooh, you

0:46

know what you've done now, don't you? You've made

0:49

everyone hate you. And I f***ing love that. I

0:52

never was nervous with him. I was

0:55

respectful and he was respectful. 90%

0:58

of a prison officer's job is de-escalation. People

1:00

don't see that side. I would be remiss

1:02

if I didn't tell you one of the

1:04

most famous stories in Belmarsh. Welcome

1:09

to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host,

1:11

Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth Sevens,

1:13

the world's largest sport and music festival. On

1:15

this podcast, I speak to proper characters who

1:17

have all lived Eventful Lives. Do us a

1:19

favour and hit that follow button and be

1:21

sure to check us out on YouTube, Instagram,

1:23

Facebook and TikTok at Dodge Woods, where we've

1:26

now had over 100 million views. George

1:29

Shipton is an ex-prison officer who is

1:31

also known from Channel 4's hit series,

1:33

Banged Up. George is a

1:35

proper character and talked through working in the

1:38

toughest prison in London, dealing with

1:40

riots from the IRA and Al-Qaeda. He

1:43

also works closely with Britain's most

1:45

infamous inmate, Charlie Brunson. This

1:47

is the Eventful Life of Mr George Shipton.

1:50

George, welcome to the show, mate. Dodge, nice to meet

1:53

you, mate. I'm looking forward to this one. Let's

1:55

roll all the way back. Where did you grow up and how did you

1:57

become A prison officer in the UK's most

1:59

dangerous. The Ends. So I

2:01

was only in Camberwell. But.

2:04

Bow out in Peckham on it was

2:06

more on top of the ultimate I'm

2:08

so I'm only not much more than

2:10

a pony. Poverty and or be didn't

2:12

know it everyone was assigned sorry know

2:14

we go in a tower blocks in

2:17

and just as not around as a

2:19

kid really be the lot of people

2:21

ended up. Buying. Units were

2:23

law is by a lot Me my

2:25

spouse ended up all asco I was.

2:27

That are lots of. Exams.

2:30

And almost opposite I was always in the top

2:32

tier Scone. But.

2:34

I don't I just did she say

2:36

so. Thatcherism on the horizon for a

2:39

million unemployed so I'll go out shop

2:41

is an and. Got.

2:43

Me First job lot about me I each. Sixteen

2:46

past having it. And

2:49

the on never been our sense or not

2:51

and just. Go. Out and I have

2:54

been trafficked weldon up in a telephone

2:56

a stop in a live up North

2:58

Korea window cleaner salt miss why I

3:00

submit a whole reason why I ought

3:02

to and I so often on up

3:05

or down lives of things are name

3:07

flat more some admit mob is now

3:09

my wife and I started to get

3:11

me it. Down. Or in our

3:13

starting it's sensible so score not stop

3:15

knocking around lot you know and I

3:17

I was when the clay not going

3:19

to play around is no way railing

3:21

L L L L U S I

3:23

am now about in your twenties me

3:25

twenty five year and I'm a covenant

3:27

when as you go down a job

3:29

center in our the land of despair

3:31

and I saw nothing down and but

3:33

it was a woman a only stuff

3:35

out and it was at the time

3:37

that would just finishing it's not I

3:39

just finished off building Belmarsh makes just

3:41

just done. At Ninety one. And-when

3:45

i when i live in law

3:47

sent young man was or out

3:49

the or sit young man's trash

3:51

bin a prison officer. Not

3:56

die unless you're a man is a scone.

3:59

Or. you've got fan in it or whatever. No

4:01

one grows up thinking, I want to be a

4:03

prison officer. No one thinks of that merely unless

4:05

you've got hooks in it. So

4:07

I didn't think of being a prison officer. It

4:10

was the furthest thing from my mind. And it was at

4:12

the time, just coming up to the time

4:14

when Strange Ways Right was on, I was

4:16

like, nah, not doing that. She went, take

4:19

that and have a think about it. And I

4:21

looked at the money at the time. So like

4:23

16 grand starting. But when I

4:25

was a window cleaner earning tat and so forth. And

4:29

I had to ask me mates, because all me mates

4:31

were criminals. And listen, it's

4:34

only and I'm literally saying this, it's only but

4:36

for a slow blue light, I would

4:38

have been inside. Yeah. I won't

4:40

ever go into what I've done. But I've done some stuff with

4:42

me mates and whatever. And I thought, fuck, I'm

4:44

gonna do this. I need permission from me

4:46

mates in Burmesey to be

4:49

able to do this job. I chat with

4:51

my fiance at the time. She's well,

4:53

I asked him to find him out and I found out

4:56

it was a pub down Burmesey called the Farriars Arms. And

4:59

all they're all down. It's a real criminal pub. So

5:01

I found him out and said, look,

5:03

I think that became an escrow. I had

5:05

a lead field back at Spokely Mate John. And

5:08

he went, give us 10 minutes. I'll ask

5:10

him and I thought so it came back.

5:13

I'm not, it was like waiting for a job interview

5:15

on. So I was like, you know, because if they

5:17

say no, I can't do it. Because I can't show

5:19

me face down here. And so

5:21

on we mates, like the word come back. But I've had

5:23

a chat with her lads and they all said, if

5:26

you become old Bill, don't come around here again.

5:28

But screws are all right. So

5:30

you can do that. So she's sitting there

5:34

and she's asking me why. She

5:38

went, I don't

5:41

think any other school ever went through that. So I put

5:44

the phone down, I put in for it. And I

5:46

give it absolutely everything. It was

5:48

in those days, it was really tough to

5:50

get the job. I mean, that written test

5:52

only four of us had 20 passed. And

5:55

There was some top paper in that because there

5:57

was a recession on some really high flyers. Filed

6:00

it flew that was a loss you that knowing

6:02

that are we impose a criminals don't know a

6:04

and then you're going to be a school in

6:06

probably a prison they've of have been no. Or.

6:09

They're gonna go to. Jail

6:11

Or it was. Auto

6:13

sound. I'm not one of blurry and people

6:15

who normally.people can be nine when I don't

6:18

know I'm told him up or don't blow

6:20

me on Trump in but what do how

6:22

with Paypal. Is respect yet? Because.

6:24

I was respect been. So it's it's

6:26

a why straight a solo we know.

6:29

That. Ninety nine cent of them would never

6:31

Tiger Lily. And. About what?

6:33

and. On Jupiter

6:35

and Whoop! Despite family capes or not

6:37

they do, I ended up opening the

6:40

door. Now to me, mice, you know,

6:42

And I'm the one. Ever. asked

6:44

me. To. Do something illegal Mata And

6:46

he was in. A. Was him

6:48

with his cow day? There was also

6:51

Marmite supposed know my son of indoor

6:53

and outdoor. An. Elite

6:55

and Nasa advantageous guys. Look at a nice

6:57

you can't pick out the door and. And

7:01

if I sit on faith I

7:03

thought I jokes aside guy lights

7:05

I went to sack eat a

7:07

millionaire. And. Kidnapping.

7:10

Thought his throne Zola

7:12

silence site a set

7:15

of mot somewhat level

7:17

was. I'll. Save

7:19

on his players joke Seminal

7:21

apnea. Ah sweet my job

7:23

My mom Pepperoni size gun

7:25

sight mack. So. A sap

7:27

it jumps. And

7:30

the case of a black guys is just. Watched

7:32

my family says that Ended ended a

7:34

ton of Zola can. Oh and he's

7:37

put him on his ass. Blog is

7:39

nonsense. Car everywhere. And. He stood over

7:41

him is because we have a fact. He put it on

7:43

our might and. Put. Pressure on Vpn but he

7:45

would not never put it on him as a strike out

7:47

on him and that's what you do is go pies. Most

7:49

things going a couple is on mama. Because you

7:51

want to be a partner and is so recently

7:54

from sorry my own with other fucking will be

7:56

a so I'm gonna bring stuff I may have

7:58

been a nightmare is the only. time? I

8:01

was ever asked. What was your day

8:03

to day like being a prison officer? Do

8:06

you know what? It's a weird job

8:09

for most of us. It's

8:12

like inmates, they're not all the

8:14

same. Some do it quiet,

8:16

some they're just like alarm bells going

8:18

off everywhere you walk, they're angry. And

8:21

some officers are like that. But if you're sort of

8:23

a middle of the road, you just want to get

8:25

through the day. You're not hiding from things, but you

8:27

don't want to call Zagro. Most

8:30

of your day can be

8:32

laughs, good pissed, great

8:34

pissed taking between cons and

8:36

the screws. Boredom.

8:40

There's an old saying in the prison service, happiness

8:42

is door shaped. Happiness is door

8:45

shaped. That's what you, the

8:47

first one, the first one is you get told when

8:49

you're a baby screw, you walk through and say, right,

8:51

sit your ass down there, get a cup of tea,

8:53

then one bang up happiness is door shaped. And

8:55

that's it because we're now behind our doors. That's

8:58

why most schools really didn't give two fucks

9:00

about inmates getting TVs in their cell.

9:02

If they're in there, they're not

9:05

running around the wing causing havoc. So happiness is

9:07

door shaped to a school. They just want to

9:09

have a, most schools just want a quiet life.

9:12

Do you not feel like you were going to prison?

9:14

Do you feel like you were a prisoner in

9:16

a prison? Or did you actually distinguish to know

9:18

that you actually, this is a job, but

9:21

I'm spending a lot of time behind

9:23

bars myself. No, I never felt I'm

9:25

spending time behind bars because I'm one

9:27

of them philosophical thinkers that

9:29

we're all in a prison of some type. I

9:31

don't give two fucks. If you're a professional footballer,

9:34

there must come a point, maybe 28,

9:37

29, where you look at your football and go, I'm

9:39

sick of the sight of spherical shapes. I'm

9:41

sick of them. So even the most beautiful job in

9:44

the world, sometimes you think, I hate this

9:46

job. You know, like movie stars, that's what I

9:48

go off the red. So I just looked

9:50

at it that you're in it, do

9:52

the best you can do the best

9:54

you can. But you can, when you first

9:57

in the job, you can take it on. That's

9:59

the worst bit. Give me an example how

10:01

you take it home to the wife. Would you

10:03

go back and say, this happened today, this happened today, would

10:05

you be wanting to relay stuff back or would it change

10:07

your mood going back into your house? At

10:11

the time, we had a newborn baby. So

10:15

particularly when I was in what we call the HSU,

10:18

the high secure unit in Belmont, so

10:23

that's the most secure unit in

10:25

Europe. Is that a prison within a prison? Prison

10:27

within a prison. Is that right? I was in

10:29

St. Mee's only in Belmarsh and that was no

10:32

keys, everything's electrical opening. It's

10:38

not even an helicopter wire, it's cage. Everywhere's

10:40

cage. The only

10:42

thing that's got a key is the cell door and that's

10:45

it. You've got no keys to any

10:47

gates at all. Everything's people watching you

10:49

on camera. Everywhere you go,

10:51

you're watched on camera and

10:54

it's the worst of the worst. When

10:56

you're going into that and it was literally like

10:58

a war zone, you can't

11:00

explain it to people. You can't

11:02

explain it to a wife. She's had the kids screaming all day and

11:05

so really, you bottle it up. You

11:09

do bottle it up. I remember just one, I will

11:12

mention his name, a prison officer, Andy Saunders. You

11:14

always pick one screw and you think, I

11:17

like the way he works his kids. He's

11:19

not a bully. He's a good laugh. He's a

11:21

Cockney. He's London. You

11:24

know, West End fan, but I wouldn't hold that.

11:26

Obviously, if Tom Lads didn't. There's nothing wrong with

11:28

him mentally. So I said,

11:30

I'll follow him. And he walked down

11:32

the corridor at the end of the day and he could see,

11:34

I was shaking at the end of the day one day. And

11:37

he went, look, you're coming at seven, they're banged up.

11:39

You go home at seven, they're banged up. What

11:42

happens in between, it doesn't matter. Just

11:45

get through the job. He says, but when

11:47

you're antiquing, leave

11:49

it there and go home. Okay.

11:52

And I say, you can't. In Belmarsh is

11:54

a real tough prison in itself, right? Right.

11:57

So I'll tell you how it happened. And then inside of Belmarsh, there's... it

12:00

is an HSU which is a high

12:02

security unit within that prison. Right, so

12:04

that's from the setup by Thatcher to

12:07

house primarily, to house the

12:09

IRA on mainland

12:11

Britain. Yeah, so it was even

12:13

shaped like the H blocks or whatever, but

12:15

over cross, it was a mini version of

12:17

the big prison. And so each

12:19

spur would have 12 cells on it and

12:22

the IRA, because they're all co-dies, co-defendants and

12:24

they've got to be able to discuss in

12:26

their case, they was all

12:28

situated together. So you could have nine IRA

12:31

on one spur,

12:33

you know. And once they,

12:36

you have to go in with an open

12:39

mind of, don't

12:41

be, don't fall into the

12:43

trap of they're nice people or they're this

12:45

or that, just stay

12:48

rigid, stay rigid, but treat

12:51

them like human beings. So how I ended

12:53

up on the HSU itself, I'd

12:55

already done two years on normal location.

12:59

A normal location on Belmarsh is a

13:01

mixture. You could have, in

13:03

this cell, geysers in the spine. In

13:06

this cell, like it could be a city

13:08

fraud, handbags, nature,

13:10

mugger, nonpayment of television

13:12

license. So it is

13:15

completely mad, right? Drugs,

13:17

whatever. So it's one minute

13:19

you're talking to a Lord, the

13:22

next minute is, oh, God, I've thought that out of here

13:24

for me, you know, and so you're up and down all

13:26

over, your head's all over the place. And it's a madhouse.

13:29

So I've done two years and then I finally just

13:31

went, I actually stood there on

13:33

the wing one day and the geyser came up to me and

13:35

went, God, if I don't get a new pillow, I'm gonna smash

13:37

up. And you hear that

13:39

all the time. I'm not just telling you how

13:41

to fuck off. What, I'll give

13:44

the clipboard to one of me scoos that I was

13:46

working with, because I see a spurt, a charge of

13:48

the spurt. I went here to take this, I

13:50

said, I've had enough here. And I walked up the spurt. And

13:53

I went up and saw my governor. And

13:55

at the time in Belmarsh to work in the

13:57

HSU, you had to be dragged.

14:00

No one in Belmarsh at that time

14:02

wanted to work in the HSU because

14:04

it was Cell

14:06

fires it was it was

14:09

sit-down protests. It was mini riots. It

14:11

was it was assaults on staff It

14:13

was always going off I mean you

14:16

dear daily alarm bells going off HSU

14:18

HSU HSU Because

14:20

it was such a mixture you had the UVF

14:23

there with the IF so the ultra

14:25

volunteer false so the Protestant side Yeah, okay. We're

14:27

in the same in the same prison No, I

14:29

mean so you had them upstairs at that time

14:31

and I did move them eventually But you had

14:33

you had the IRS so you could keep them

14:35

apart and all you kept the movement All right,

14:38

then you had the labor keeps sharing

14:40

each other abuse. Oh, yeah, yeah Yeah,

14:42

you know that and then you had

14:44

you had blimey. We had Italian Mafia.

14:46

We had Colombian cartel members We

14:49

had all sorts in there at that

14:51

time So it was just bouncing off

14:53

the walls And so I went in

14:55

saw my governor Paul Carroll and I just said to him

14:58

And I have a word he went you're sup and

15:00

I was respected on the wing and I just went

15:02

I won off And he went

15:04

because I was waiting to become a physical education instructor.

15:07

It took me a few years So

15:09

he said there what do you mean you won off? I went

15:11

I've had it. I said I've done two years here I've

15:13

had enough it's driving me around a fucking twist this place. I

15:16

said I want a challenge He said we don't want

15:18

to go. I went I want to go to HSU anyway No

15:22

one wants to go to HSU and I went well,

15:24

I want to go to HSU. I said I

15:26

want a challenge Because now me

15:28

my granddad was Irish. We only found you

15:30

Irish and my granddad used to run guns

15:34

in the 1930s Up to

15:36

the north So he was part of

15:38

that so the IRA sort of thing didn't really put

15:40

a lot of fear in me If you don't if

15:43

I'm saying that But

15:45

up in the night of the Republican ad phone and when

15:47

I raised that but it was always that way, you know

15:51

An accident Way to kind of be

15:53

with me. So he went you want to go?

15:55

I went yeah, you're the first one in Belmont Share it. I'll

15:58

ask I

16:00

thought, hold on, I'm at a phone call. But right,

16:02

it's start Monday. Now, now, you couldn't

16:04

do that, they have to have a training course. It

16:06

was just report Monday and crack on. Get yourself

16:08

in there, see? Was it? Yeah, and then you

16:11

were in the deep end with the IRA and all that. And so, I got

16:13

in there, and most people

16:15

were like, you asked, I went,

16:17

yeah. So I went in there, I thought,

16:19

oh, fucking no. I didn't say anything, I just thought, oh, fucking love

16:21

this. Did you? I fucking

16:23

love this. Now, I'm no braver or anything

16:26

like that. I'm no courageous, you know, anymore

16:28

than the next man. But it just tickled

16:31

me. I just thought, nah, now I'm doing something here.

16:33

This is more, this is what I want,

16:36

you know? Is it because they were another

16:38

level of criminal that

16:40

made you think, you know what? There was no ambiguities.

16:42

There was no gray area. There

16:45

was, you fucking knew that

16:48

given half a chance, they will fucking

16:50

stripe you up. You know, that

16:52

you've got to be, number one,

16:54

you've got to be close with the staff you're working

16:56

with. For trust. So,

17:00

and when I say that, you

17:03

will always get certain types of screws who

17:06

like working with certain types of screws. So

17:09

if they're fucking piss heads and they don't like

17:11

fucking working and stuff like that,

17:14

generally, you work with them, but you don't gel with

17:16

them. But like, we were all gym lads,

17:18

you know, all the lads went down to gym and all

17:20

that. And not, I

17:22

mean some tough lads, ex-parachute regiment, ex-war marines

17:24

I worked with, real tough lads,

17:27

but they weren't bullies. They

17:29

could stand their ground. They just, like,

17:32

you know, when you meet someone and you think they're eating

17:34

our bars, but they're humble. Yeah, there's nothing better than that.

17:36

It's fantastic. Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it? Because now you can go

17:38

in that shift, and you know, you think, oh, I'm on the

17:40

wing with Tom Ray, but people are like, you think. He ain't

17:42

gonna wind people up. He ain't gonna wind people up. Exactly, it's

17:44

got to be spot on. We're gonna

17:46

have, you know, Sean Rush, people like, you think

17:49

I'm working with quality officers. And there was some

17:51

quality, quality officers there. So because

17:53

of that, I thought that first of all got

17:55

me into it. And then the

17:57

governor's got to be good. The people.

18:00

POs got to be good. So the principal

18:02

officer. Okay. Is the governor the top dog?

18:04

The governor's the top and then you've got

18:06

the principal, two principal officers for the two

18:08

shifts. And then you've got the SOs, the

18:10

senior officers, and then us grunts on the

18:12

ground at the teeth end. Yeah. But

18:15

in there, because you've got the governor

18:17

of the HSU, it

18:20

weren't like sometimes on a wing where you very

18:22

rarely in them days used to see a governor.

18:24

Yeah. The governor had to come on every day.

18:26

Okay. And stand near ground. You've got three or

18:29

four IRA men shouting at the governor. You

18:31

had to have a strong governor. Yeah, okay. And we

18:34

had strong governors. Okay. So it would back the staff,

18:36

it would take the ship from the IRA or the

18:38

UVA or whatever, and they would take

18:40

it and you'd look at them and go, that's all right.

18:42

Yeah. So you were your own solid team.

18:45

They really were. Yeah, that's good to hear. We have

18:47

to be. You have to be. And

18:49

it's also a place where, if

18:51

you do as an officer, take a liberty with

18:55

a con, mate.

18:58

It's such a stupid thing to do. Give an

19:00

example of an officer taking a liberty with a

19:02

con. Well, if we were to do,

19:05

for instance, I was taught when I was at

19:07

officer training school, one of the

19:09

best things you get taught is when you do control and

19:11

restraint. Right. So it's the most painful thing.

19:13

And I can tell you when we did it on the

19:15

IRA, I'll tell you a story about it in a minute.

19:17

But you do the control and restraint. So you've got a

19:19

wrist. Now, To an example. So,

19:23

Don't do it. No. So it's just, yeah, so

19:25

you just... Oh, fuck me. Okay. Yeah. Right.

19:27

I'll get it. So that you bend them up. It's painful

19:29

jujitsu. Yeah. Okay. So you twist them up and

19:31

the old build can't really do it. So the screws, we

19:34

laugh at them when they're trying to wrap people up and

19:36

sit on the street or something. Screws just being there. Free

19:38

man team, boss. One on the head, two on the arms.

19:40

And then you finish off. What? A knee on the head?

19:42

No, you never put a knee on the head. No. So

19:44

you just hold them so that you can, they can breathe.

19:47

Yeah. Your hand, keep your hand away from their, from their

19:49

bike, trying to bike. They do try and bike. And

19:52

then you take them to the floor. But then when

19:54

you get them to the cell, you have to strip

19:56

search them. So

19:58

complete strip search. Complete. So you've

20:00

got to do that while they're all in

20:02

locks. And we have a system on be

20:04

able to do it. So say for instance

20:07

I'm on there, you can, and I've

20:09

seen it, the odd screw give

20:12

a one in the ribs. Dig in the ribs,

20:14

yeah. Right, now if the con clocks

20:17

at who you are, this is

20:19

in a unit where there might only be about 30 odd, 35 inmates.

20:23

That word goes around. And these

20:25

are people who are doing 20 lumps, who

20:28

are staring at life. You're

20:30

going to have a hard time. You

20:33

do that to one of the IRE, you're

20:35

going to have an hard time. So

20:38

I'll tell you something, when we did use constraint,

20:40

con control and restraint, it was the funniest pinch

20:43

up I've ever been involved in

20:45

in prison. Oh, none. So

20:47

the story was, like I said to you earlier, no

20:49

one wanted to go to the HSU. And

20:52

I will mention his name. We had

20:54

an officer called, and he's still in, he's still

20:57

in there, called Bertie Brewster. Right? That's his name,

20:59

Bertie Brewster. He was

21:01

Brewster, but he's nicknamed Bertie. So Bertie

21:03

Brewster. And he was really a funny,

21:06

funny officer. Well liked, well

21:08

respected. So even though he was doing what he was doing, I'll

21:10

tell you what he was doing in a minute, no

21:13

one had the amp with him. Everyone thought, oh Bertie, we

21:15

know what you're doing, you're working your ticket. So they

21:17

sent him to the unit. He said, you're two years

21:19

up in this house, but you're going to the unit.

21:22

And I'm not typical, but I'm not fucking going to the unit. And,

21:25

well, it's tough. Everyone has to do a spell in the

21:27

unit. You're going to the unit. Now me, I'm thinking, there's

21:30

nothing wrong here. You'll like it. So

21:32

he went, oh, I'll go. He said, I

21:34

want to start on nights so that I get a feel

21:36

for the place. Like that. So

21:39

he'd done a deal with one of the officers and he'd done

21:41

nights the first week. And

21:44

this is when the travel started. Because Bertie

21:47

knew the book. He knew the rule book. He

21:49

knew the law book and everything. So he

21:51

was going around on the hour every

21:53

hour, which he's entitled to do, and

21:57

banging on doors of the IRA

21:59

meeting. Every

22:02

hour through the night. Show movement!

22:04

Legally, that's a big off. So

22:07

you've got to give him a knock every hour? What

22:10

you actually do is you open the

22:12

flat, you see him move in bed. You know

22:15

it's him. Common

22:17

sense. He's sort of breaking them

22:19

up. But Burtish says, he

22:21

said, I've got to write. If they

22:23

don't move in, I want to see movement. I

22:25

don't know if that's a shot dummy in there. So

22:28

what he was doing was every night, on the

22:30

hour, going through the night, knocking on the IRA

22:33

man's doors. The night started

22:35

by about Wednesday, Thursday. By

22:38

Wednesday the IRA wanted to meet with the Governor

22:40

and the PO. And they

22:42

actually said to him, if he does this

22:44

again one more night, you're going

22:46

to have a kick off. We're going to have it. Like

22:48

this. So everyone was

22:51

like, Burt, please don't. Because they're

22:53

all on the same spot. No,

22:55

no, no, no. Please don't. So

22:58

he's going round that night, he's done the same thing.

23:01

Winding him up all night. Because

23:03

he knew that he couldn't show his face ever on

23:05

the unit. For his own safety. He knew what he

23:07

was doing. And so we

23:09

all come in in the morning. Straight

23:12

upstairs, there's a meeting with the PR. He

23:14

wants to talk to you. Spence wants to talk to you. So

23:16

he goes in. I'm standing there

23:19

and there's about 15 or so officers in

23:21

there. And he's going, right, West

23:23

Country, I think there's going to be a kick

23:25

off this morning. He says, I think the

23:27

IRA, and as he said it, a

23:31

long bill spurred to, you

23:34

know, they kicked off. Right. So what they've done

23:36

is they served him a breakfast IRA and I

23:38

think it was very starting now. As

23:40

I've run on, there's fucking

23:43

porridge everywhere. I mean, it was like

23:45

the plasters were coming with porridge. It

23:48

was everywhere. TV was on its side. There was a

23:50

I think there was a fire going or something like

23:52

that. They kicked. They planned it all. As soon as

23:54

the doors were open, they were going to go. So

23:57

now you've got screws out and it was just a case of

23:59

run. at an IRA man, up him,

24:01

grab hold of an arm and spike for one of

24:03

the other carefully to grab the other arm. So

24:06

I'm rolling around the floor, you know

24:09

what, I can't mention his name, he's an IRA man

24:11

but he was a top IRA man. You got a

24:13

nickname? Mac,

24:15

that's all I say. Right, Mac. And

24:18

so and he was a very forceful

24:20

character at the time, he was a

24:22

real mouthpiece for the IRA, really strong,

24:24

strong character. And I

24:27

grabbed his arm and I put him and I done by

24:29

the book, put him in a wrist lock. But

24:32

as I'm putting him in a wrist lock, he's like this

24:34

and I'm like this and we're seeing

24:37

screws come running on to this

24:39

porridge-laden floor going, whoa,

24:41

whoa, like this. And he's in

24:43

pain, but

24:46

he's laughing and I'm laughing. So I

24:49

figured it's like blazing saddles, it's like fucking

24:51

screws just come flying on all over the

24:53

place. So we

24:55

got him wrapped up and we took him down a block in

24:58

the unit and we

25:00

stripped him, figure four, it's called a

25:02

figure four leg lock, which is very painful. Figure

25:04

four leg lock? Yeah, you put their legs in

25:06

a figure four like that, so that's one leg,

25:08

that's the other leg. And then a

25:10

man puts his knee there and his knee there and

25:13

then he's over the top. And you can pray? And then

25:15

he brings the arms up to the middle. Right, okay. He

25:17

holds the legs and the arms so

25:19

you can spring out and get out the door. And then

25:21

he springs out, we pull him out and shut the door. So

25:24

the assailant is left in there, bollock

25:27

naked. So Mac,

25:29

Mac, I was calling, he's banging on

25:31

the door. So

25:33

we're like, oh, fucking hell, I'm smothered in porridge, got to

25:35

have a new uniform. So he's going to, and

25:39

I'm not bad at you, Northern Irish accent, so he's going

25:41

to, master shut

25:43

down, master shut up in the fucking

25:45

flap, open the flap like this. I

25:48

said, Mac, if we open a flap, I said, you

25:50

go up at me or anything like that, I said,

25:52

we're coming in. I had not fucking go, but yeah,

25:54

come on, open the fucking door like this. Open

25:57

the flap, right, right. You

26:00

promise you're not gonna do anything. I'm

26:02

a man, he said I'm not gonna do anything. I wanna talk

26:04

to his, like that, somebody wrote it, and I have a flat.

26:07

So I opened the flat, I went, what you want? He went, put

26:10

his hand for a little hat. He went, put it there. What

26:14

you do, I've never had this. I went, what you doing? He

26:16

went, put it fucking there. So

26:19

I shook his hand and he went, let

26:21

me tell you, I brought up on the bogs side. He

26:23

says, I've had some beatings. He said, I've had some pain.

26:26

I've never had pain like that in my

26:29

fucking life. He says, you boys

26:31

know your stuff. He says,

26:33

and none of you took the piss. Fair

26:36

play, I have great respect for you. Like

26:38

that, and we shook hands, like, oh, mate. And

26:41

after that, it was an inner respect we

26:43

had for each other, just a good laugh.

26:46

So I had to take him for five or

26:48

six and things in the yard and do like,

26:50

oh, hey, drug dealers

26:53

versus terrorists. That is

26:55

an immaculate shot. We're

26:57

not fucking terrorists. We're freedom fighters.

27:00

That's what he said. They

27:02

were funny. But now and

27:04

again, it could turn iffy

27:06

with them because I would say

27:08

working with the IRA, it was like you

27:11

had a regretting respect. You

27:15

think you put over doing obviously, some

27:18

of their own people hated what they were doing. They were paying that,

27:20

you know, you had assassins with

27:22

guns who wouldn't talk to the bombers.

27:26

There was a higher rock. Within the IRA. Within the

27:28

IRA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one particular fellow, he

27:30

wouldn't talk to the bombers. He talked to them, but

27:32

he didn't have no respect for him. He said, you

27:34

should look the man in the eye when you shoot

27:36

him. He shot, and he ended up, he

27:39

shot a cop with him, a scary wolf. He

27:41

said, I'll look him in the eye. I didn't let him know he

27:43

was killing him. He said, and

27:45

so you had that, and you

27:47

just, it's their intelligence network. You

27:50

just look at anything, you know,

27:53

it's just second only to MI5 at the time. And

27:57

you would see things that were just sometimes. which

28:01

is one of the reasons I used to love working in the unit, just

28:03

say things and you think, this is

28:05

the strangest job I mean, this is

28:07

the strangest job. I remember one day,

28:10

I'm going to call him the Colonel, so

28:12

he was known as the Colonel and they had a ranking

28:14

system, the IRA, and

28:17

they always, if you show them that line,

28:19

the IRA, they'll go right up to

28:21

that line and then they'll just slowly

28:23

but surely push that line to

28:25

try and see where your with is. Psychologically,

28:28

I should wrong eye you,

28:30

stand up against six of us

28:32

or seven of us when we're sharing that. And

28:36

so he got me really strong. So, this officer, he

28:38

had he

28:40

said his name, we had the

28:42

Colonel and he was in on a

28:45

visit and he apparently started talking Gaelic

28:47

during the visit. Now,

28:49

some people go, ignore

28:52

it, it's alright, end of

28:54

visit, these people have come over from Dublin.

28:57

Don't care, end of visit. Well, you're actually the end

28:59

of visit. Yeah, absolutely. We need to hear what you're

29:01

saying. We need to know what you're saying. So, on

29:03

a visit, where are you standing? So, I would literally

29:08

be sitting here and then you'd have

29:10

two chairs there, usually two,

29:13

and then you'd have a screen and

29:15

then the inmate the other side of that

29:17

screen. So, you'd be on the visitors side, sitting

29:21

with a newspaper but actually listening to everything they're

29:23

saying. Most of

29:25

them sound uninterested but now and again you hear, that's

29:28

interesting, but they're not allowed to

29:30

start cracking on in other languages

29:32

unless it's pre-arranged and there's an

29:35

interpreter there. So, he

29:37

starts cracking on in Gaelic and

29:40

they visit over, oh no, we've come

29:42

from Dublin, don't give two fucks, end

29:44

of visit. So, he's brought them back and me

29:47

and this officer, Karl, we're

29:49

sitting on the wing and the

29:51

IRA is sitting there and they're watching Telly,

29:53

Richard and Judy or whatever and they're playing

29:55

pool. No bother, we're just sitting there

29:57

because that type of school we just used to have a

29:59

lot. them and then over the here appears

30:02

so you've got about six I remain in there and

30:05

it comes out when he goes that right

30:08

stand up like this and

30:11

they stood up like

30:14

you'd think they were in the British Army they stood

30:16

up to attention right right

30:20

naked on the exercise yard hunger

30:22

strike dirty protest and it

30:24

starts giving out yeah starts giving out jobs

30:27

but all the things they've got to do hunger

30:29

strike whatever dirty protest okay

30:33

colonel so it would about

30:35

turn started taking a kit off and

30:37

all that they're

30:40

all naked it's a

30:42

weird job he

30:45

doesn't let it get to you don't you? What

30:51

do you do when someone's on

30:53

a hunger strike? Well

30:56

really hunger strikes were you sort of used

30:59

to give an example of a hunger strike

31:01

do they tell you when hunger strikes? No,

31:03

they only start the hunger strike or they

31:06

start it on the on the water on

31:08

any house block or in the unit or

31:10

whatever and once it gets over

31:12

a certain amount of time so 48 72

31:14

hours they put them in a unit put

31:16

them in a healthcare unit okay so that

31:18

they've got medical assistance there and then they're

31:20

in the hands of the professionals yeah because

31:22

we have not got time yeah worrying about

31:24

people eating dinner yeah no I've got to eat

31:26

your dinner most of them they're

31:29

getting Mars bars handy to them yeah

31:31

you know have you had any other

31:33

strikes you've been involved in? What's a

31:35

dirty protest? I've

31:38

actually that was the one of the I

31:41

can't remember his name actually but he was he

31:43

was one of the ones he got given a dirty

31:46

protest so they smear shit all over themselves and they

31:48

smear it everywhere on in their

31:50

cell yeah everywhere everywhere in their cell

31:52

on themselves I've even one

31:54

time that was the that geezer when he did it the once

31:56

to me he went go I've known like that and he put

31:59

shit on his dinner and he picked it up and ate

32:01

it in front of me. Ugh. Ugh.

32:04

Why? Why? It's

32:07

a protest that you've got to now work with them. You

32:10

don't actually, as a screw in them days,

32:12

you don't actually have to work with a

32:14

dirty protest. Maybe lie on your volunteering

32:16

because you've got to wear hazmat suits,

32:18

mask, everything, just to open the fucking

32:20

door. In them days, you've

32:22

got to pay £5 a day extra. What to do then? To

32:26

go and deal with someone smearing their own shit. Someone smearing

32:28

their own shit in their cell. What

32:30

was the thing you had to go and do immediately? Put

32:32

a suit on and go in there and not do it? And not,

32:34

and not come out. He's

32:37

doing a dirty protest, so you're just

32:39

keeping in cellular confinement, you know, and

32:41

that's the way it is until you get the word from the

32:43

governor of what, the governor will always try, you

32:46

will try and negotiate and get them out

32:48

of that. Out of the cell? No,

32:50

out of what, see, prison officer, 90%

32:54

of a prison officer's job is de-escalation. That's

32:57

all you ever really deal with. Calm things down.

32:59

It's because the man who's just had a phone

33:01

call will take what his

33:03

wife's just said to him the wrong way, now

33:05

his mind's going 100 mile an hour, she's fucking

33:08

somewhere in Stoke New York, and then he's fucking

33:10

doing his thing, he's having his head in, and

33:12

he's looking to feel him, mentally. So you've now

33:14

got to bring him down, continually, continually, from one

33:17

cell to the next, continually

33:19

unwind their clock and get

33:21

them relaxed. And that's

33:23

really what it is. So you try

33:25

and, British prison officers are different to

33:27

every other country, in my

33:29

experience. Give me an example, why? So

33:32

for instance, when I was in

33:34

the HSU, they did send over

33:36

a contingent of American prison governors,

33:39

called them Waldons, and they came over

33:42

because they wanted to see how our

33:44

HSU was working, because compared to

33:46

their type of same system, they

33:48

were getting like 300% more assaults on staff and

33:51

whatever, so they wanted to see what we did.

33:54

So they came over and they were just fucking scratching their head, they

33:56

were like, you talked to them? You

34:00

play pool with them and you play

34:03

cards and everything and have a laugh. We've seen you

34:05

joking with them. It's the

34:07

British way. Yeah, the

34:09

man who's laughing with you is probably 30 percent

34:11

less likely to stick a knife in your head

34:13

and ain't going to make dummy one. But

34:16

there is a connection there. And

34:19

to be honest, but what do you want to go

34:21

to work and just be an angry bastard? Yeah. Do

34:24

you think that for someone who

34:26

doesn't know the prison system would look in prisons

34:28

and go, why have they got pool tables? Why

34:30

are they watching TV? Why have they got their

34:32

own cooking facilities in their room? Do

34:35

you think that should be a

34:37

real or... Those people never,

34:39

ever become prison officers. Yeah. Right.

34:42

Because. You

34:44

want to be if you want to rehabilitate, this

34:46

is where I've always said Britain does have a

34:49

problem with itself. Yeah. Because we do like to

34:51

think of ourselves as the most fair minded people

34:53

and most tolerant people and whatever.

34:55

But we also do love a pound of flesh.

34:58

We do like some pain dished out to

35:00

the people who've done us wrong. Yeah. OK,

35:02

so we can be quite vindictive in that

35:04

way. So we haven't we haven't really come

35:06

to terms with as a nation because we're

35:09

either this way or that way, like

35:11

the Norwegians, they've made their mind up, this is

35:14

the system we want. The Yanks

35:16

have the system now. It's basically slavery as well,

35:18

I'm saying. But they've all got these systems in

35:20

place. But the British is neither here nor there.

35:23

You know, it can be quite it wants to

35:25

be quite draconian, but it also wants it doesn't

35:27

want to send, you know, people

35:30

newly formed criminals back out on the street.

35:32

But unless you invest,

35:35

unless you invest an investment, it

35:37

really was in my view, we did

35:40

the best work around about

35:42

the mid 90s when they were

35:44

investing, you know, 94, 94. When

35:47

it changes it, is that when it changed? And

35:49

I am a Labour voter, but it was it was changed

35:52

when Labour got in in 97. Okay,

35:54

that's when it became obsessed

35:58

with targets. Okay, obsessed.

36:00

An example of targets would be? Key performance indicators,

36:02

you know, you just got a prime

36:04

out of cell. Didn't matter what they were doing out of

36:06

cell. So, but that did

36:08

start with, that also came in some

36:10

of that with Michael Howard as the

36:12

Home Secretary when we had drug

36:15

fines were down. So

36:17

that meant that there were less drugs in prison.

36:19

No, it didn't. It meant that we were finding

36:22

drugs at the gate and you weren't

36:24

reporting it to the police. You were just chucking them in the

36:26

bin. Why? It made him

36:28

look good in the dispatch box, didn't it? Under

36:30

us. There's less drugs in prison. Well, it

36:32

was all pressing the figures. Yeah. You

36:35

know, it's a bit like what Mark Twain said. There's lies,

36:37

damn lies and statistics. Yeah. Yeah.

36:40

That's the truth. You can dress the statistics up however you

36:42

want to do it. Whereas those of us

36:44

who are on the front line, I

36:46

wasn't obsessed with statistics. I

36:48

was obsessed with, I

36:51

had five inmates who I was a personal officer of

36:53

every day and doing my best

36:55

for them. And doing my best in the

36:57

job with my colleagues,

37:00

got their back, getting

37:02

a big, just doing a good job, you

37:04

know, and you didn't need to get obsessed

37:06

about numbers and stuff like that. And

37:09

I'll tell you one story about

37:11

the sort of work that goes on in there that was

37:13

going on and it's probably studies going on. But when

37:16

you became an officer, you got sent to your

37:18

prison and you went,

37:21

I walked up on the front line and I was

37:23

about four, absolutely crapping myself my first day at work.

37:25

But just to let listeners like that out there, you're

37:27

a big man. You can handle yourself.

37:29

Yeah. And I'm sure there's a

37:31

lot of cons in there will think twice

37:33

about having to go. Yeah.

37:36

So you were in a fairly good position to think.

37:38

Yeah. Once you start thinking like that, you are

37:40

in a world of trouble. Yeah, you are. But you've

37:42

got respect for people. People got respect for you. But

37:44

you can also handle yourself. But that respect has to

37:46

be earned. Absolutely. And it takes

37:48

it takes a when you're a new screw, you've

37:51

got to take it takes your time to learn your

37:53

jet, what I call jail craft. Yeah. Okay.

37:56

So that's your prison persona because, you know, the

37:59

laughing piss taking jokes. working fellow you are at the prison,

38:01

ain't the one you go home as. So it's like

38:03

as you get in the gate in the morning, you put

38:05

on your prison persona. Now who that prison

38:08

persona is, that takes 18

38:10

months to work out who you are

38:12

as a screw. So

38:15

when you first go on, you go, right,

38:17

reporting for Jerry, blah, blah, blah, you've got them

38:20

five cells. They're

38:22

your personal inmates. And that's what

38:24

they used to have, personal inmates. So if those inmates had

38:26

a problem with probation, whatever, they'd come and see you. You

38:29

could have some absolute nut cases, like

38:31

coming to see you, or in your, whoever

38:34

was in those cells. So

38:36

I'm about a year and a half down the line, and

38:38

I'm more experienced, and blah, blah, blah. And we get

38:40

a new con on board. And

38:42

I will not say his name, because

38:45

of the story you're about to hear, okay? But he

38:48

was 10 years as an escapeless

38:50

prisoner. That means he was

38:52

in yellow and blue overalls for nearly 10 years.

38:55

Every day. Every day, because all he

38:57

ever did was

38:59

either try and escape or assault stuff. What

39:01

was you in there for? I can't,

39:03

do you know what? Do you know what? And this is

39:06

one of the things I was not very good at. Not,

39:08

well, it just wasn't my thing. I never really, and this

39:10

was a really high profile, and I had to know, I

39:12

didn't really care what I was in there for. Because that

39:14

can curley you. Yeah, okay. And it can make you a

39:16

fucking bastard. Snicking cars in the old camp roads where my

39:18

family would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to

39:20

know that. So just deal with your face to face. Unless

39:23

I was told by security, keep an eye on this, because

39:25

he'd done this, that, and the other to staff. So

39:27

which was the case with this inmate?

39:29

He comes walking on escorted by about four

39:31

or five staff. Where's

39:34

he going? He's going in one of your cells. I'd

39:38

heard of him, his name, and all

39:40

the other screws, more experienced, they're all pissing

39:42

themselves, aren't they? So they're like,

39:44

oh, fucking, you've got him. Good

39:47

luck. He assaults every member of

39:49

staff, he comes across. And

39:52

there was something in me. I just, I

39:55

just went, I

39:57

do have this thing inside me of, I

40:00

called it the bring it on character. I was like,

40:02

oh, fucking bring it on. Not

40:04

in a way of I'll have aggro with you. Because I'd lose.

40:06

Because he can pick a weapon up and that's the end of

40:08

it. But I'm

40:11

going to give you my best. I'm going to bring me

40:13

A game to you, mate. Let's fucking see. But

40:15

I had to tread carefully with him because he did not trust

40:17

stuff. So. Do

40:20

we know him? No. Do

40:22

we know the name? No, you wouldn't know the name. But

40:25

people in prison at that time, they

40:28

would know. Okay. He

40:30

had nothing to look at. Ten

40:32

stone piss wet from Derbyshire.

40:35

But he was a tough, tough character.

40:38

And there was no smiling

40:40

with him at the beginning. So

40:43

it took me a good few weeks just to

40:45

make real contact. Like, okay, mate, I'm your personal

40:47

officer. Any problems coming? Yeah, all right, yeah, fucking

40:49

yeah. I'm going to talk to you. And

40:52

he started it surely. I think he stood there,

40:54

you know, because it can't work, but he lives

40:56

in prison. So on the wing, he stood there

40:59

watching and seeing me with other cons. And

41:02

he actually went, it was about three weeks in.

41:04

And he went, golf can have a word. Like

41:07

that. So I went, yeah,

41:09

all right. So what I done was I didn't just go

41:11

over and talk to him. Like I said, that thing inside

41:13

me, I went to the screw. I went, I

41:16

put the latch on so I couldn't get, I couldn't get kidnapped.

41:18

So I went, I'm going in

41:20

his cell. And the screw went,

41:22

you're going in his cell. I went, I'm

41:24

going in, I want to talk to him. So

41:27

he'd never even had that. So I

41:29

went in the cell, pulled the door. I sat

41:31

down to

41:33

take any fear of him not standing over him. White

41:36

uniform. So I stood, I sat down 45

41:38

degree angle. I was making sure he was

41:40

like, so I could get to the door. So

41:43

he started, he says, I've been watching

41:45

you. He says, you seem like a reasonable man. Like I

41:47

went, oh, so I'm just a normal bloke doing a job.

41:49

I said, I'm not, you know, I'm not here to make

41:51

a star name for myself. I said, I'm not a bully.

41:54

So he says, I want

41:56

to talk to you about my life. He says a little bit.

41:58

I've never, never really opened up. about it he says and is

42:01

there any way you think you might be able to help me

42:04

Simon oh mate yeah go on crack on so

42:07

I was in about 45 minutes and

42:10

he's fucking balding his eyes out this geezer does

42:13

a child boys

42:15

dead a

42:18

reporter keeps getting down the stairs keep

42:21

the granny having as a kid social

42:23

services rescued him put me

42:25

foster care foster care yeah worse right

42:28

went to went to a young

42:30

offenders he got fucking done

42:33

there and so any it

42:35

got beaten the fuck by anyone in the uniform yeah

42:37

basically so there's me in

42:39

the white shirt so

42:41

I just said I just told

42:43

him I had a plane and I said I'm gonna

42:45

work with my PO it was a really good peer

42:47

at the time Phil reg and and

42:50

I said and I've already spoken to

42:53

the wing probation I said

42:56

I reckon I'm gonna do some work with you like

42:58

this so when I'm with them and

43:00

that was a respect away I thought I've got the two

43:02

of them I said well we got a challenge here

43:04

so we can either we can really work with his Gita so for the first

43:06

time in his life as

43:12

a prisoner as a prisoner I've got him

43:14

a job we overdone the rules we

43:17

got permission from security

43:19

our PO we made him a wing cleaner

43:22

got a match to work but you

43:24

can only work on the wing so

43:27

about two or three weeks this

43:29

is a man constantly

43:34

yeah so he's not

43:36

been a flaw one day and we're feeding at breakfast time

43:39

and he says cool kind of a word like

43:41

that yeah what's up come over here

43:44

and he whispers in me here he says

43:46

there's a blade he says a

43:48

chive around the corner one spur he

43:51

said one of your screws is going

43:53

to get stabbed he said he

43:55

said the name he went he's upset someone he says

43:58

he's going to get stabbed he says before

44:01

I met you he said I'd

44:03

probably done it for him he says now

44:05

I know of your human beings he says I

44:08

couldn't fucking picture it he says you might have

44:10

got it like this he said go

44:12

and spin it gof but then

44:14

that's what I can't say his name yeah go and spin

44:16

it gof so I went up

44:18

and he said look I'm down went

44:20

in got it, toothbrush with a

44:22

fucking blade it was gonna slice up his toe and

44:25

I thought yeah people don't

44:27

see that side of

44:29

prison officer in if you know what I mean I

44:32

just think it's a they think it's in the room between

44:34

porridge and fucking short-shoped redemption yeah

44:37

you know well they might think your old bill linked to

44:39

the old bill thing that's why that's why the disrespect might

44:41

be there do you think

44:44

yeah I think that some people see screws

44:46

as like I want

44:48

to be old

44:51

bill yeah I literally

44:53

got the job just to get out of fucking

44:55

life I was in yeah what life were you

44:57

in before that before you went in

44:59

do you use your skin across it what

45:02

no we list you get up to credit

45:06

card fraud and fucking fake

45:09

then entering with people and not

45:11

not houses that people not drums that people

45:13

lived in yeah they were like new builds

45:15

and stuff like that and you were doing

45:17

stuff like that and I've

45:21

just kept me gobshark just I was good at keeping me

45:23

gobshark at the time you know and it just I was

45:25

up to it was just like when

45:27

I was a kid and this is true I was

45:29

brought up in a big Irish family and every job

45:31

you got it was just like I got

45:33

a new job alright what

45:36

can you nick that's the first thing now yeah

45:40

but my Mrs when she married when she mapping me

45:42

she's coming really middle-class

45:46

family yeah only child you

45:48

know that is a jeweler it's like well to do

45:50

fact not you know well to do but they're all

45:53

right yeah I'm scamming the earth from the old camp

45:55

road and I'm alive it was like you know what

45:57

is this life people fiddling the electric and yeah it's

46:00

I didn't remember a pound note, was it? I

46:03

never knew. I literally never knew anyone who

46:05

bought a car radio out of Alford's. You

46:08

went and saw Dave or someone down the pub. 30 quid.

46:11

And he'd say, well what do you want, Pioneer? And

46:13

they let you, they're right down the muck. Give

46:16

us a week and I'll have that. I grew up in

46:18

pubs. Right. Living above pubs as a

46:21

kid, all the way up to what the thing bought.

46:23

You could order whatever you wanted and you'd have it

46:25

next morning. Precisely. Anything. Precisely. And

46:27

everything. So it was all that

46:29

going on. And so

46:31

it was one of them where, you know, my wife,

46:33

she was pregnant at the time. And I

46:35

thought, I've got to straighten out. And

46:38

I'll tell you what, the biggest thing for straightening you out

46:40

is actually going and looking in prison. You

46:43

know, listen, that's their life and

46:45

they want to go back to. And

46:48

it's not the thing of the beatings and

46:50

stuff like the extreme side of it. It's

46:52

just purely, I can order a pizza tonight.

46:54

Yeah, freedom. I can walk the dog. Yeah.

46:57

You know, I can do the most

46:59

mundane things. You can't even lock your

47:01

own door. So

47:04

that's one of the things I sort of

47:07

brought up. It's mainly me mum who passed it

47:09

down. Empathy for people. Don't have fucking sympathy for

47:11

them. Do not have sympathy

47:13

for these blokes because they will shove it right

47:16

up your ass because that's patronizing. So

47:18

don't have sympathy for them. They may die in bed. But

47:20

have empathy. And that's a different thing. That's a... That

47:23

could be me. Yeah, I agree. All

47:26

right, that could be me. I'm no fucking eye. I'm

47:28

no high and mighty fella with great morals and all

47:30

this. I'm a fuck up. And

47:34

be humble. Be humble. And being able to

47:36

talk to everyone whether you're a cleaner, whether you're a prime minister,

47:38

whether you're a CEO or a chairman, whether you're professional football. For

47:40

me, it was your same. You

47:43

know what I mean? South London. Yeah, that's what it

47:45

is. It really is because that's what my mum... Show

47:47

us your sex. My mum was a cleaner, this kind

47:49

of union official. Things like that. But she just used

47:51

to say manners. She said, you got manners?

47:54

You sit with kings and pulp. She said,

47:56

rich people who ain't got manners, they can't even sit

47:58

with themselves. Agree. So

48:00

it's just manners and I'll tell you what... And

48:03

that goes a long way by the way. Do you

48:05

know what? It wasn't until I was recently doing

48:08

this program on Channel 4 Bangda. So you went

48:10

on the program Channel 4 Bangda. That's where you

48:12

become a face. That's where it all pops up and

48:14

you become a like little celebrity

48:16

from that rule. I know you don't want to call it

48:18

that but it has been there. No, I don't know.

48:21

A known person. A known person, are you going to? Yeah.

48:23

A real refuge. How

48:26

was that for you then? Because you were a

48:28

real humble human being. For you to be

48:30

called up and say, we want you to be one

48:32

of the main faces on Bangda on Channel 4. What

48:34

was your reaction? Well first of all what happened was

48:37

I did a podcast. I didn't

48:39

even know what a podcast was. And it

48:41

was during a jukebang. During lockdown. Same

48:44

thing. Oh yeah. It was wasn't

48:46

it? So I had a mate phone me up Gary

48:48

and Mark and they phoned me. A cab driver's because

48:50

I'm a cab driver now. And I said, can you

48:52

do us a favour? Black cab driver's. Even though you've

48:55

got a bright pink cab out. A

48:57

bright pink cab. It's my aura. You

49:02

found yourself. I found my inner self. So

49:05

it's one of them where they

49:07

phoned me up, George

49:10

we know you've had a bit of a weird life, you know, doing

49:12

all sorts of jobs and madness with Charlie Bronson

49:15

and this and the other. I went, yeah, can

49:17

you do a podcast? I went, I don't know.

49:20

Why not? I mean I don't know what a podcast is.

49:24

I tell them I was 57. I

49:26

went, I'm 57 years of fucking age. I said, what

49:28

the fuck's a podcast? How do you hold a rave?

49:30

Everyone talks about them. I

49:32

said, yeah pop open the basics and we'll do it in the back of a

49:35

cab. I went, oh yeah. So I

49:37

done it. And it got the most... It's not that sort

49:39

of podcast in the back of a cab. No, no, no.

49:42

I'll do that as a sideline. Fake taxi. I'm

49:46

the one who puts his back out. Almost to you. He

49:51

was aup. Fake

49:54

taxi. So

50:01

this, I'll turn up with those stories, and they're

50:03

like, I'm telling them the Bronson

50:06

stories. And it went out

50:08

there YouTube, and they had peck on the bed, and they

50:10

went, it's gone fucking bananas. All the

50:12

London taxi drivers are loving it. You know, can

50:15

we do part two? So I've said, yeah, once, I'll

50:18

get all this out of the way, I'm doing another one for them. But

50:20

I said, that it's really good. So I thought,

50:22

no, I literally thought no more of it. And

50:24

then out in the blue, I gets contacted on

50:27

Instagram by some TV producer. It says, we're making

50:29

a Channel 5 documentary. Belmarsh,

50:31

maximum security. So

50:34

I said, do you know anyone who could go on

50:36

it? So I gave them Kevin Lane's name.

50:39

I gave them, what's his name? One

50:42

of the lords that we banged up. I

50:45

gave them all sorts of names, and they'd done it. I gave them

50:47

officers as well. And they'd done a really good

50:49

documentary on Channel 5. And

50:51

from there, I started getting

50:53

contacted while the documentary's on,

50:55

from all strangers. I didn't even know these

50:57

people. And then months, about four or

50:59

five months later, I'll get some fun, I had a blue.

51:01

Kev put them on to me, Kevin Lane put them on

51:04

to me. I said, we've been giving

51:06

you a name, Kevin Lane. He says, I'm

51:08

on the Victoria and Albert rank, or on the restaurant,

51:10

I'm eating my sandwich. And they phoned me up and

51:12

they says, this will make you see

51:15

what a dinosaur I am. They've gone, oh,

51:17

we've been giving you a name. We're showing TV. We

51:20

wanna make a reality TV

51:22

program. First of all, we'll make the pilot

51:24

with Johnny Mercer, the

51:27

Tory MP. But we didn't know who

51:29

it was at the time. He said, we're a famous MP,

51:31

they said. And they said, would you like to do it?

51:34

So I said, well, tell me about it. What

51:38

I've always said to them, and they know this from me, I

51:40

don't give two facts about being famous. I

51:42

really don't give two facts. So that's why they know. If

51:44

they don't do right by me, I'll just fill it out

51:46

and walk off. I couldn't give them a name. So

51:49

I've not asked, so far I've not asked

51:51

for the podcast, and now I've not

51:53

asked for this Channel 4 thing. So

51:55

Channel 4 have gone, what can we do a Zoom

51:57

meeting with you, so we can really get to know?

52:00

you and I went, no, I'm not doing that. You're

52:02

not doing it. I went, no, I'm not doing some meetings.

52:05

I said, I said, you want to meet me? I

52:07

said, I'll come up to your offices and we'll meet each

52:09

other face to face like human beings. I

52:12

went up there three and a

52:14

half hours. I was telling them

52:16

these stories and that and they just went,

52:18

we got a usual. So I

52:21

sent the film to Channel 4, Channel 4 loved it. And

52:23

then so then we'd done the pilot with

52:26

Johnny Mercer and Kevin Lane, Tony

52:28

Gooch. And

52:31

I thought, and we made this this this

52:33

pilot with Johnny Mercer. And

52:35

on the way up there, I remember saying to my missus, I

52:38

found out I was going to Shroesby prison

52:40

and I went, this cannot work. I've

52:42

worked in prisons 12 years. And

52:44

the underlying thing you have to have for

52:47

prisons, the closest I've ever seen it is

52:49

the drama Time with Sean Bean. There has

52:51

to be an underbelly of

52:55

attention, of fear of violence. There's got

52:57

to be that you you can always

52:59

take it's tangible, the feeling of this

53:02

could go. And they captured

53:04

it on time. And I said, I can't see how

53:06

this is going to work. This reality TV. I said,

53:08

I'll take their money. So they want you to bring

53:10

celebrities in mixed with the first one pilot, which was

53:13

one celebrity, which was a home office,

53:15

he was a minister at the time. So we bought

53:17

Johnny Mercer in and they come

53:19

into a real situation. Now,

53:21

what I didn't realize was I mean, I

53:24

hadn't been a school for 20 years. So

53:26

what I didn't realize was once I put

53:28

that fucking uniform on, and

53:30

the keychain, I've been away five

53:32

minutes, I've been for a lunch break. Yeah,

53:34

I'm back on a wing, you know, and I'm on

53:37

the iron that's good, but you actually feel and I'm not

53:39

the only one who said it. I was

53:41

happy with it as well. I'm actually a better prisoner. So

53:43

yeah, than when I left the service. Because

53:45

I'm older. Yeah. And I'm slower

53:48

in like adding I'll stop first.

53:50

Yeah, not think, yeah, use a

53:52

bit of humor, less ego,

53:54

a bit better, it's softer, you know,

53:56

but sharp, still sharp with the humor

53:58

in it. I can

54:00

move different skills to what I had 20

54:02

years later. And I

54:05

felt, this isn't gonna work, but we got five

54:07

hours in and Tony Gooch,

54:09

bless him, he's, I'm banging him out and

54:12

he went, George, I went, what? He

54:15

went, you fucking screws are making me feel like

54:17

I'm doing bird again. And I went,

54:19

and you fucking cons are making me feel like I'm back on the

54:21

landing. I said, this is gonna be

54:23

brilliant. He went, mate, this is

54:25

gonna be fucking hell. He said, this is gonna be really good.

54:28

So we went for it for three days, we've done it

54:30

with Johnny Mercer. Channel four went

54:33

bananas over it. So then

54:35

we found ourselves last June with six celebrities

54:38

and doing it. We actually did the filming for 11 days, but

54:41

they were banged up for eight. Okay. And

54:43

let me tell you, that was

54:46

sometimes as intense and

54:48

sometimes more intense than anything I've done

54:50

in the prison. Really? Oh yeah. Why

54:52

do you think? Is it because people

54:54

wanted to have a dig at the

54:56

celebs? Some did.

55:00

It got close. They wanted to have a dig

55:02

at authority. But they

55:04

didn't- And get away with it. They didn't come in

55:06

with that mindset. It's

55:09

almost switches something on in your primeval

55:11

mind of a survival fight

55:13

or flight. And a lot

55:15

of them, that's why there's a psychologist on and

55:18

all the time. It

55:20

does, it took me, after filming, it took

55:22

me two weeks to decompress. Two

55:25

weeks to get back to what I

55:27

would say. I'm back to normal

55:29

now. And I must've lived like

55:32

that tension for 12 years. 12 years, yeah. And

55:35

you've jumped out of normality, which I'll

55:37

say my life is not normal. London

55:40

black cab driver having a laugh. Back

55:42

in the Houston, off I go to

55:44

home. And so then you're in this

55:46

microscope of tension where

55:49

people, they think, ah, it's only a TV

55:51

program. Because the inmates didn't make any money

55:53

out of it. Where

55:56

was this prison? Shrewsbury prison. And was that closed down

55:58

or was that- Closed in 2013. And

56:00

so it's used for dramas. It was like a song

56:03

for Sean Bean's program and things like that So who

56:05

did you bring in what celebs were brought in? Marcus

56:08

Lufa out of about what's it called? I

56:11

didn't know I was terrible because it was

56:13

new celebrities. Yeah, you know Sid

56:16

Owen out of it. Yeah, Peter

56:18

Hitchens The columnist he's

56:20

on Twitter a lot. Yeah, he's on political

56:22

things Um, Neil

56:24

Parrish to Tory MP who got

56:27

caught watching porn in the Pop

56:30

star called Harvey. He didn't have him.

56:32

Yeah, he was in there and you

56:34

know Me

56:38

minds gone, but we had six of them and Oh

56:43

Tom Rosenthal is on Friday night dinners So

56:45

he had him and it made for some

56:48

really good TV Yeah, the point where everyone who's

56:50

contacted me said it should have been longer. It

56:52

should have been about six seven episodes How many

56:54

was it? There's only four was it? Okay, would

56:56

they do another part two you think have they

56:58

come back? Well, we're waiting to hear. Yeah, okay.

57:01

I hope they do They

57:03

were I know they were toying with a women's

57:05

prison But I have I've had

57:07

chats and so have other people it won't work What

57:10

was this what was they brought in the celebs? Did

57:12

they bring in the ex cons? Yes,

57:14

I did it to say what you got our act

57:16

like it was back in the day So the ex

57:19

cons are two or three days of bedding in before

57:21

any so that I can So

57:23

they're being run on us. Who was the ex cons? Kev

57:26

Lane, I don't know that was still was about 40 ex

57:29

cons. What's that? It's about it was a proper wing

57:32

It was yeah, okay, so we had half the wing

57:34

and the rest was shut off So I ran the gym

57:36

as well. So I was a gym officer So I was

57:38

constantly able to get Chinese and I was running a gym

57:40

class go back up and then I was back in uniform

57:42

On the wing so I was doing that as well when

57:44

they shift minimum was 12 hours I

57:47

see 11 shifts minimum of 12 or all

57:49

on period of 11 days 11 days He

57:54

put in from black every chilled nice five of them Up

57:57

at five in the morning get

58:00

that feeling when you walked into that prison

58:02

in Shrewsbury that the energy in there was

58:05

exactly like it used to be or was

58:07

it funny you say was it hard or

58:09

was it tougher energy it's funny you say

58:11

because the first one we made the pilot

58:14

they're doing on a shoe gang they did

58:16

a fuck all money so they they didn't

58:18

use they used three ex-cons to be in

58:20

the in really in the program and

58:22

they used the backup all

58:24

the extra they were film extras but actually they

58:26

were blokes from a cricket club in Shrewsbury and

58:29

they would there's nothing worse than someone trying

58:31

to be an inmate because

58:34

they walked like that you know and

58:36

they put bandanas on and giving

58:39

you bad looks and all this

58:41

like you know because I remember when

58:43

we first came on the set they said by showing us

58:45

around on the set on the on in the prison they

58:47

were showing us around and all these extras all there and

58:49

we called him bandana man as a geezer of a bandana

58:52

and he just wouldn't speak to me and he was

58:54

just like this is a funny story this is it's

58:56

just giving me right like he wouldn't kill me he's

58:59

geezer he don't know me

59:01

he don't know what I've been in here and all that

59:03

so I've gone as a typical screw first

59:05

thing I've done is made for the canteen and got a

59:07

bit of cake so I've got a bit of cake and

59:09

I'm walking down and I'm with this other screw and he's

59:11

got it he don't like you like

59:16

this that's what we're

59:18

like we're not yeah you want some I'm like yeah

59:21

right so it's just carried on with

59:23

his hands down his trousers giving me daggers you're

59:25

not having more carrot cake like this

59:27

having a laugh of him and he didn't didn't

59:29

didn't budge so as we

59:31

carried on filming for a couple of days Kevin Lane

59:34

has got talking to him these film extras and

59:37

flogging his book so he's kept

59:42

in line to telling them about how far

59:44

back me and him go I'll tell you

59:46

that story but how far back we go

59:48

and who I've been in with Charlie Bronson

59:50

IRA UVF Colombians fucking

59:52

the Pope's banker and all that

59:54

so they've gone that these they're

59:57

listening to this story and they're

59:59

clocking on And I've just come

1:00:01

walking down the wing, you know, no ego. Yeah. All

1:00:03

right, that's that and this bandana man's come out to

1:00:05

me and he's gone Mr.

1:00:08

Shipton I went so I call me

1:00:10

child mates He

1:00:13

went I Just want to

1:00:15

apologize. I Gave you

1:00:17

a right odd times in the know says Kevin's

1:00:19

just been telling me he says who you've been in with in

1:00:21

there He says you must look at me and laugh like No

1:00:27

You're only playing a part of film

1:00:29

extra And

1:00:33

now I've got about ten film extras around me So

1:00:40

that was that part of it I

1:00:42

enjoyed it and I enjoyed making the

1:00:44

program But

1:00:46

it takes out yeah, and it took it out

1:00:48

of every inmate who was in it How close

1:00:51

was it to how actually really is it? Yeah

1:00:54

Yeah, the only the only thing that

1:00:56

was missing was suicide attempts violence and

1:01:00

Can I put it us being able to

1:01:02

wrap him up? Okay being able to put him in

1:01:04

controlling restraints Yeah, you know, we weren't allowed to do that.

1:01:06

We did do it once with with

1:01:08

a Scotsman who was he actually

1:01:11

offered his hands up Come on

1:01:13

take me. He was a Scottish nationalist Trust

1:01:17

him up like a turkey and took him down the

1:01:20

block But I was the only one I was walking

1:01:22

around his wrist lock and I was going to I'm

1:01:24

really sorry about this I'm so sorry Have

1:01:30

you ever been close to being stabbed Stabbed

1:01:34

no, I've been close to being really hurt. Well,

1:01:36

okay So there's only like I said, I've been

1:01:38

in with I spent a lot of time with

1:01:40

Charlie Bronson to the point where we were All

1:01:42

called Charlie's Angels. Yeah in

1:01:45

Belmar. Yeah, we were known as Charlie's

1:01:47

Angels So if I

1:01:49

can I can I yeah, yeah, so Charlie Bronson

1:01:51

like right So what happened was was I was

1:01:53

eating dinner one night at nine o'clock at night

1:01:55

come home from an A-shift Which is a long

1:01:58

long shift and I guess and I mean the

1:02:00

unit okay so I've come home got me

1:02:02

dinner phone call but I'll pass 9 at night

1:02:04

governor number one that's the

1:02:06

head governor of Belmarsh prison and he

1:02:08

was John Podmore the best

1:02:10

governor I've ever worked with and

1:02:14

he phoned me up and went hello George it's governor number

1:02:16

one John Podmore and now first thing you think is fuck

1:02:18

what have I done here whatever

1:02:21

I've done I'm under investigation and he went well let's

1:02:23

stop this fight there he says you're not under investigation

1:02:25

you're not in trouble he says I've got to ask

1:02:28

you a favour I went

1:02:30

go on he went we've got a very very

1:02:32

high profile inmate turning up I can't say who

1:02:34

it is he went but

1:02:37

I'm I've devised a plan

1:02:39

he says he's coming for about three

1:02:41

months he says and I've

1:02:43

devised a plan he says to have two teams

1:02:45

of six because he had to be unlocked with

1:02:47

a minimum of six plus

1:02:50

an S.O. so seven really but there

1:02:52

was two shifts so you had 12

1:02:54

of you so he says

1:02:56

right if you agree to do it he says wear

1:02:59

him out he says can you

1:03:01

wear him out for me I went well I don't know if I wear

1:03:03

him out I said but I'll keep him busy he

1:03:06

went right so I want to do it we're gonna plan

1:03:08

it so he does circuits in the morning he

1:03:10

says waits late morning or early afternoon

1:03:12

then he does a spot but it

1:03:14

spouts out in the yard he says

1:03:16

really keep him occupied he says and

1:03:19

the same team with him Charlie only responds

1:03:21

really to a certain type of officer he

1:03:24

says and you're that type of officer so

1:03:26

I know mates who've worked with him before so

1:03:29

I said yeah I'll do it he said right

1:03:31

you don't come in in prison uniform you come

1:03:33

in in sports kit he says and I don't

1:03:36

give a fuck what's going on in the prison

1:03:38

you don't answer no alarm bells he says you

1:03:40

work with Charlie Bronson and that is

1:03:42

it he says you answered to the governor number

1:03:44

one he said anyone's got a problem Senator mate

1:03:47

fair enough yeah so I

1:03:52

liked it I fucking loved it I never

1:03:54

was nervous with him I was respectful

1:03:57

and he was respectful if

1:03:59

Charlie you know know, just

1:04:02

be a man, really. Keep your

1:04:04

ego at the door, because the minute

1:04:06

you're putting it on, he'll fuck him

1:04:08

though, he's no mug. And so, you

1:04:11

know, just recognise that this is the

1:04:13

top alpha in the room, but

1:04:15

he doesn't wave it around, you know,

1:04:17

until he reads the top alpha, you just know it.

1:04:20

So he is what he is. I'm

1:04:23

not going to go in and rehabilitate him, I want

1:04:25

to go in and take the piss out of him, and he's going to

1:04:27

take the piss out of me and we're going to have a good laugh,

1:04:30

you know, and you've got to take a few risks as

1:04:33

an officer, which I did on a couple

1:04:35

of occasions, and my friend

1:04:37

and mates were shitting themselves. There was

1:04:39

one occasion where we were going out on the yard

1:04:41

and to play non-stop cricket with Charlie, so there's six

1:04:44

of us in his lock, about the size of this

1:04:46

table, really, and there's six of us all

1:04:48

edged up like this, and we've got a cricket bat, me

1:04:50

mates got the sponge ball, Sean, and he's

1:04:53

behind Charlie, and Charlie's right opposite me here,

1:04:55

and I've known Charlie now for a good

1:04:57

month or so, and we'd usually

1:04:59

play chalk tennis or

1:05:01

non-stop cricket in the afternoon, and

1:05:04

I just, it's the little devil in

1:05:06

my head, I just looked at Charlie and I went, I

1:05:08

fucked this, and I threw the bat down on the floor.

1:05:14

I thought, well, I've got to go now, and I've got to go with it. He

1:05:17

was, what's up, George? What's

1:05:19

the matter? I went, that's no fucking point, I

1:05:21

said, playing this fucking stupid

1:05:23

game. I said, don't you like

1:05:25

it? I'm like, yeah, I love it, I

1:05:27

sound a fucking master quicker. I said,

1:05:29

what's the point? I said, what is the

1:05:31

point in us going out there and playing?

1:05:35

Someone upset you. No one's upset me, Charlie.

1:05:37

It's just that I'm going to go out there and I'm

1:05:40

going to smash your arse all over the place, mate. I'm

1:05:42

going to make you look like a mug, like

1:05:44

this, and my mate,

1:05:46

Sean, behind him, is there, he's

1:05:48

looking at me and he's going,

1:05:51

like, it's, Charlie's looked at me and

1:05:53

it's gone quiet for about five seconds, it felt like

1:05:55

a little fucking three minutes. The Charlie's looked at me

1:05:57

and gone, oh. Woooooo!

1:06:01

Like this. And then

1:06:03

he's tied it up. He's tied it up. He's tied it up.

1:06:06

He's like, you know what you've done there, don't you? I

1:06:08

went, what have I done? He

1:06:10

went, you've made everyone hate you. And

1:06:12

I fucking love that. I

1:06:15

can't fucking wait to play now. That

1:06:17

is. So I've gone out there and

1:06:19

of course every time I'm smashing a ball I'm moonwalking.

1:06:22

Stick my tongue out of him and all this. And

1:06:25

he thought he was fucking brilliant because you showed a

1:06:27

bit of character. You didn't blow bubbles at me. But

1:06:30

I remember telling the wife when I go home,

1:06:32

she went, you fucking stupid bastard. I didn't act

1:06:34

such a fucking boss. I couldn't

1:06:36

help that. How long have you been in

1:06:38

there 50 years, isn't he? 40 odd years.

1:06:40

Do you think he should have been released to cut the

1:06:42

mugs back? Yes. But

1:06:45

it takes courage. And

1:06:47

I don't see too many home secretaries

1:06:49

with a backbone for the last long

1:06:51

time we've had them. You know,

1:06:53

it's one of them. You see, this is

1:06:56

the thing that gets them inside. People

1:06:58

like Ray Bishop and they know what I'm talking about. Ray

1:07:00

Bishop is a great man. Ray

1:07:02

Bishop is a cracking man. Honest, hot man.

1:07:06

And humble and kind. He's got all

1:07:08

these bad dudes. He's a fucking top

1:07:10

man. So he was Kevin Lang. And

1:07:12

Kev was very good. So

1:07:15

what it is, they do their crimes.

1:07:17

And don't ever say, oh, you

1:07:20

know, I was a mistake or I had a

1:07:22

bad child. I wasn't hugged. They know

1:07:24

what they've done. But when you see the

1:07:26

fucking scum getting released, kiddie

1:07:28

fiddlers and stuff like that, who

1:07:31

can work the system. And

1:07:33

come out and change their name. What?

1:07:36

See what I mean? What? See

1:07:38

what I mean? So that's what does a lot of the lads in. And we're

1:07:40

all married, man. We've

1:07:42

got kids and that. Fucking

1:07:44

driving mad. But you just, whereas

1:07:47

we have to just go put

1:07:50

it out your fucking mind because I was a PEI. I got a

1:07:52

member. I was a physical education instructor for

1:07:54

eight years. And so I've put a lot of that

1:07:56

time. I was like, no, sorry, seven years. So

1:07:59

a lot of that time you've got. Nantes cases coming up

1:08:01

to you arguing shouting at you because the shuttle

1:08:03

cocks ain't in good condition You

1:08:05

know the geezer who shouted at you as

1:08:07

thrown his three-year-old bedroom three-year-old kid round the

1:08:09

walls. Yeah, smashed up brains Yeah, you

1:08:11

know, but you've got a rise about how do you try? How

1:08:13

can you rise about because you if you're saying that me now

1:08:15

if I'm going in and I'm a screw

1:08:17

and I'm thinking I Know what he's done Listen,

1:08:20

the different crimes aren't there with its drugs whether

1:08:22

you were bank robber They're

1:08:25

all bad But there's certain ones you look at

1:08:27

I think you must have looked at for you know What

1:08:29

you ain't getting any love from me the only yeah The

1:08:32

only one it really took a lot of personal Strength

1:08:35

and I didn't handle it too Well was

1:08:37

kids called Robert Nappa who killed Rachel Nikel

1:08:39

on Wimbledon Common was that was he he

1:08:42

was in Belmarsh, right? So he was in

1:08:44

for a crime of it was in for

1:08:46

they called him the green chain It

1:08:49

was in loads of women on the green chain Members

1:08:52

all over right. It was in the area where my

1:08:54

wife was from Elton and

1:08:57

also he'd killed this I will not go

1:08:59

into the I know the full details He

1:09:01

killed this woman in Plumpstead and her four-year-old

1:09:03

kid and now he killed the kid Well,

1:09:05

let me take this right the way he killed the

1:09:07

kid the copper dealt with a

1:09:09

case and of his badging

1:09:12

That bad I need to say it all just leave it

1:09:14

as that. All right So, oh we

1:09:17

used to get jobbed off in in the prison as

1:09:19

in they shut the gym down They were short of

1:09:21

staff go and sit in the LK unit and you

1:09:23

just go and sit there and he's got all these

1:09:25

mass murderers like getting made off

1:09:28

and he was he was one of them and he said his thing of

1:09:30

just staring at you and It just

1:09:32

fucking drove me around the twists and I

1:09:34

couldn't do it I just I just you know, I'd

1:09:37

get in your head. It would just it would I'm

1:09:39

a human being, you know And it

1:09:41

used to just get in your head and I

1:09:43

could not handle it And so it was one of the few

1:09:45

few times we just say I'm gonna do

1:09:48

damage to this case I'm left alone because I fucking

1:09:50

hated him. Yeah, it was a horror. There

1:09:52

was nothing behind the eyes Yeah, absolutely

1:09:54

nothing behind the eyes and when I said to him you've done all

1:09:56

them in Elton and

1:09:58

that and he just went their

1:10:01

problem. Wrong place,

1:10:03

wrong time. That's what he

1:10:05

said. So,

1:10:08

you know, what you have to do is, is you

1:10:11

have to... How do you restrain

1:10:13

yourself? Right, so what you have to do is... Don't

1:10:15

matter what job you're with, don't matter who you're being

1:10:17

paid by, and you know him, you've been like... Be

1:10:19

amazed. If this is your job, and

1:10:21

it's actually your career, you go, this is

1:10:23

what you do. You can be one

1:10:25

of them screws, and they do exist, who fucking

1:10:28

scuttling off to security all the time, the

1:10:30

Watson office, reading what crimes they've done. That

1:10:33

will drive you round the fucking twist. Yeah,

1:10:35

yeah, yeah. Right? Or, you

1:10:37

know, I have this thing of, the jury

1:10:39

and the judge have done that job. I'm

1:10:42

here to make a system work. Okay. I'm

1:10:45

here to make a system work, make the fucking

1:10:47

system work. I don't get paid

1:10:49

extra for rolling round on the floor, you don't

1:10:51

get paid extra for fucking being a bully. Just

1:10:54

get through the day as peacefully as possible, have

1:10:56

as many laughs as you can, and just

1:10:59

be the fella that your

1:11:02

mum's proud of. Yeah, okay. You

1:11:05

know, and she wouldn't be proud of me if I

1:11:07

was going around fucking landing right hand on people behind

1:11:09

their back or whatever. So it

1:11:12

catches up with you, because I'm in South London,

1:11:14

everywhere I go there, there's fucking big cons, always

1:11:16

saying that. Do you get clocked?

1:11:19

Yeah. Do you get clocked everywhere, do you?

1:11:21

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'll tell you

1:11:23

what, once I... It's been a good bloke, because surely they're

1:11:25

clocking out again. You know what, I'm glad that was a

1:11:27

good bloke, isn't it? There was one time where he's getting,

1:11:29

I think he's dead, a guy's called Bailey, and he was

1:11:31

a cat, eh? And he was fucking...

1:11:33

Black guys, Mars, Bart, everywhere, he was scarred up

1:11:35

all over the shop, and he

1:11:37

was a tough, tough fella. And

1:11:40

we, as I said, me father-in-law was a jeweler, and

1:11:42

we went down to his jeweler's shop in Sydney at

1:11:44

the time, me and my wife, and

1:11:46

we visited him. We were going up to London on the

1:11:48

train station at Sydney, and it was like the fucking

1:11:50

Westlake Tumbleweed, it was only me and her on a

1:11:52

platform. And that and the other platform

1:11:54

comes about 20 black

1:11:57

gazers, all gangs, all gangs, one

1:11:59

gang, and was the top man of them.

1:12:02

They all go in somewhere, all the fuck knows, but they all come

1:12:04

up there, and he looks over and clucks me, and

1:12:07

I went to mum and she says, fuck. Like

1:12:09

this, she went, what? I mean, it's a cat eye, I

1:12:11

said fucking Bailey. Like this. And

1:12:14

I thought, this is, this is, go, please,

1:12:16

let the chain come. Like this. And

1:12:19

he said that all while, didn't even say hello, didn't say

1:12:21

nothing, he just, and I just, and he had a few

1:12:23

boys there who'd been inside of him, and so we

1:12:26

got on a chain. About two or three months

1:12:28

later, I'm in the gym, I'm a PEI, and

1:12:30

he had a very distinctive voice, and

1:12:33

I heard him in the changing rooms, and I went out

1:12:35

to him. I went, Bailey. He went, what's

1:12:37

up, love? I went, put it there. He

1:12:40

went, what? I went, put it there. And

1:12:42

he shook me in, he went, what's that for? I went, you fucking

1:12:44

know what it's for. He went, what? I

1:12:47

went, Sydenham Station. You saw me with my missus.

1:12:50

He went, how

1:12:52

long we seen each other? He said, four or five years,

1:12:54

me in and out. I went, yeah, he went, have you

1:12:56

ever been to me? I

1:12:59

went, no. I said, never been one of them

1:13:01

to him, not in my mind. He went, well,

1:13:03

you've never done wrong by me. He says, what

1:13:05

am I going to say? You were

1:13:07

with your woman. He said, I'm going to do something. He said,

1:13:09

I would never do that. He says, you've always been all right

1:13:12

to me. I'm fine for that. It

1:13:15

pays off, doesn't it? Is

1:13:18

the prison system broken, do you

1:13:20

think? And do you think drugs

1:13:22

is rife in prisons? Drugs got

1:13:24

worse in prisons, believe it or

1:13:26

not. The minute they screwed down on

1:13:28

drugs. Example? Right,

1:13:31

so mandatory drug testing came in in

1:13:35

the early 2000s. They brought in this

1:13:37

thing called MDT, mandatory drug testing. You didn't have a

1:13:39

choice. They might get a whisper from

1:13:41

someone, knock on his door, right? Piss

1:13:43

test, mandatory drug testing. Well,

1:13:46

most of what you could smell in prison

1:13:49

when I was on the landings was puff,

1:13:51

was weed. It wasn't always good gear, it

1:13:53

was Moroccan black, whatever. You could smell it.

1:13:56

And then you had to be like that. Really, the drugs of

1:13:58

choice was either that or... or I'd see

1:14:00

an error in all that. So it

1:14:02

was one or the other. So

1:14:05

cannabis stays in the system so long. So 28

1:14:07

days is it? So a lot more. Is it

1:14:09

more though? Three months on a hair follicle. Isn't that

1:14:11

right? So yeah, so they can do that. See,

1:14:14

they're getting nicked for cannabis. So

1:14:16

all the cons been the cannabis. They went

1:14:18

on this fucking spice which

1:14:20

don't stay in the system long. So

1:14:22

their eyes kites now on spice like mong down

1:14:25

and that is way, way more addictive. Way more

1:14:27

of a problem. And

1:14:29

it's not a gateway drug. It's fucking through the gate and

1:14:31

up the fucking alleyway. It's in there.

1:14:33

It's a massive problem in prison. It's

1:14:35

of our own making. Now it's a genie that's out of

1:14:37

the bottle. How do you put that back? How do you

1:14:40

say we're not doing mandatory drug test anymore so you can

1:14:42

crack on with your cannabis? Yeah. So

1:14:45

all your cannabis would be a lot nicer than whacking

1:14:47

spice to it in the run, yeah. Friday night on

1:14:49

nights in the prison when you ain't got keys, you're

1:14:52

doing nights, you ain't got keys. They're

1:14:54

having a party. They're having parties in their cell. If I

1:14:56

was banged up, you always say to yourself, if I was

1:14:58

banged up, what would I be like? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:15:01

I'd be up with all sorts. That's where

1:15:03

I come from. I'd be sleeping and digging

1:15:05

diamonds doing all sorts of fucking stuff. But

1:15:08

like, you know, it's not good luck to imagine I

1:15:10

let them get away with it. I've got keys. I

1:15:13

can't go in there. You

1:15:15

know, you might say, well, send it to your

1:15:17

mates coming on a day shift. They're fucking banged on

1:15:19

it. Yeah. You might say that. But

1:15:22

at the end of the day, you think, nothing I

1:15:24

can do. You can't come with it. What's the difference,

1:15:26

the listener out there, or anyone watching on YouTube, what's

1:15:28

the difference that you can clock when someone's on Spice?

1:15:32

Fucking hell. Is it Monge, is it? It's

1:15:34

Monge. It's an horrible word to

1:15:36

use, but it's proper Spice cadet. You are,

1:15:39

you know, and they can be fucking

1:15:41

beaten up and all sorts, all sorts taken

1:15:44

off them. So they're walking around,

1:15:46

I've seen it in San Fran, San Francisco.

1:15:48

Yeah. They're walking around the street. It's like

1:15:50

that. They're hanging down, yeah. Hanging and walking, that's what it's like.

1:15:52

Yeah, yeah. And how do you do it? Do you

1:15:54

smoke it? How do you get a spousal system? They breathe it in,

1:15:57

don't they? They breathe it in for a bottle, don't they? It's like,

1:15:59

I've seen it. Yeah, there's

1:16:02

all sorts of do it on can they attach

1:16:04

it to paper or whatever It's

1:16:06

also the way they do it, but I

1:16:08

got out sort of as that was starting in how would you

1:16:11

know someone's an error in? Well,

1:16:14

you know you just knew This

1:16:17

is the scratches question, you know,

1:16:19

yeah And

1:16:22

there's all the twitching and it's all

1:16:24

that you know, so What about

1:16:26

mobile phones? That

1:16:29

wasn't a problem wasn't back then was it? No,

1:16:31

I was oh they were used to phone cards.

1:16:33

Yeah So I

1:16:35

was a nice a pit. I keep saying

1:16:37

it bad word. I'm sorry I was a

1:16:39

lovely person I used to

1:16:41

walk around and pick up used phone cards and then bend them

1:16:43

in half And then we split up a con

1:16:47

Get me a system bent phone cards There's

1:16:53

one to start you off Fuck

1:16:56

off God It's great.

1:16:58

You know what? It's really nice to live because most

1:17:00

of these stories we're in prisons and their screws They

1:17:02

don't like the screws is tear up. Oh, you've gone

1:17:05

in with the attitude of how the

1:17:07

attitude of a good screw should be right Speed

1:17:10

man, just be a man and knowing you're having a

1:17:12

laugh as well. Let me tell right so 12

1:17:14

years. Yeah Oh, well,

1:17:16

you just did you say I'm fine. I know

1:17:18

I was two years at white more worst prison

1:17:20

I ever was white more a Cambridge show. Why

1:17:22

was it bad? It Was

1:17:26

every rotten egg in in

1:17:28

the one basket? So you'd half the prison

1:17:30

was C and D wing which was fucking

1:17:33

yardies IRA London

1:17:35

gangsters fucking Newcastle gangsters every

1:17:37

fucking gangster known Killers

1:17:40

contract killers and then the other half of

1:17:42

the prison was high-profile nonsense

1:17:47

So it was one extreme to the other

1:17:49

did they were they allowed to mix my no They

1:17:51

weren't allowed to make okay, but when you were doing

1:17:54

I was a PI I got posted I post I

1:17:56

passed my P equals and I got posted to white

1:17:58

more and I

1:18:00

came from Belmarsh which was a prison that we had control

1:18:03

of. Yeah. Whitemore was just fucking

1:18:05

everything Belmarsh wasn't. So I could be referee

1:18:07

in a match and this will tell

1:18:09

you about Kevin Lane. I could be referee in

1:18:11

a match between C-Wing

1:18:14

and D-Wing, top level gangsters,

1:18:16

right, who they've been betting on all week with 150

1:18:18

cons round a pitch. Just

1:18:21

me and another PEI and two officers

1:18:24

and dogs officers round a pitch outside. So me and another PEI. You

1:18:27

could get jumped at any point if you... Yeah. You

1:18:30

could get off-site. You've got a dummy though. You give a

1:18:33

penalty. You give a penalty against Dennis Arif. Oh my... It's

1:18:36

there. Against a... a penalty against

1:18:38

a... Dennis Arif, you know. Was he arrogant in

1:18:40

there? Yeah, they were in there. Yeah, I'm in

1:18:42

Dennis. Yeah. I've just gone to write with them. Yeah.

1:18:45

So I'm going to just... where me and Kev live

1:18:48

in Lane. Yeah. And this goes

1:18:50

into Whitemore. Yeah. It's a

1:18:52

good story. So Kevin Lane... For the listeners out

1:18:54

there. Yeah. Explain who Kevin

1:18:56

Lane is. Kevin Lane, in my

1:18:58

opinion, is wrongly convicted of the crime.

1:19:00

Agreed. Agreed. He

1:19:02

was put into prison for... For 20 years. 24 years. So

1:19:07

he was wrongly convicted. I

1:19:12

think I'm a strong character, strong will,

1:19:14

whatever. I couldn't scratch

1:19:16

the surface of what Kevin Lane can do

1:19:18

because Kevin Lane is... I've never seen

1:19:21

him... I've seen him pressed on ooch. I've

1:19:23

never seen him take a drug. Yeah. I've

1:19:25

never seen him unshaven. Yeah. He's always

1:19:28

clean cut. Always clean cut. Yeah. I

1:19:30

used to call him Catwalk Kev. That's right. That

1:19:32

was his nickname, Catwalk Kev. And he was a boxer, right? Yeah.

1:19:35

So I came in one morning

1:19:37

to the HSU, the high school

1:19:39

unit, and I had a lovely officer showing and

1:19:42

she said to me, she's from Bristol, and she said, oh George,

1:19:44

we got to write one here or one here like that. And

1:19:46

I went, oh. She went, oh.

1:19:49

She's been ghosted in overnight. She said,

1:19:51

he's a boxer and he's

1:19:54

ready to go. The only young fella,

1:19:56

Kevin Lane's, his name. And

1:19:58

I went, oh. This

1:20:01

is all our fucking needs. Fucking first thing

1:20:03

in the morning, rolling round on the floor. So

1:20:06

I opened his flat

1:20:08

and he's like this. He's

1:20:11

ready to go. He thought he was going to

1:20:14

be a welcome committee, didn't he? Which

1:20:16

we didn't do. So I went,

1:20:19

right, put the fist down, mate. I said, there

1:20:21

ain't none of that bollocks here. I said, you're with Bellmarsh

1:20:23

now. I'm not fucking scrubs. So I

1:20:26

opened the door and I went, right, calm

1:20:28

down. He went, I'm ready to go. You're

1:20:30

not going to go, you want to have it? Like, calm down.

1:20:34

I shook his hand and said, my name's George. George

1:20:36

Gibson. I said, right. I

1:20:39

said, you've obviously been ghosted overnight. I said, none

1:20:41

of your family know you're here today. He went, no. I

1:20:44

said, well, in that bubble there behind me, there's an officer.

1:20:46

I said, that's where you make your phone calls. I said,

1:20:48

but I know you haven't got your phone calls with you.

1:20:50

I said, I can get you an emergency phone call. I

1:20:52

said, you can phone a couple of numbers and let

1:20:54

them know where you are. I said, on your approved phone number list.

1:20:58

I give them a, this is always our first conversation. I

1:21:00

give them a sheet of items you're allowed

1:21:02

in the HSU. See those?

1:21:04

I said, tick off everything you

1:21:06

ain't got. I said, I will

1:21:08

get you this morning everything you haven't got,

1:21:11

anything you want, you come and see me. Do

1:21:13

not ask me for anything you're not allowed, because I will

1:21:15

say no, no matter if you're a boxer or whatever you

1:21:18

fucking are. I said, I have to say no. And that's

1:21:20

the end of it. Don't ask me for anything you're not

1:21:22

allowed. And we'll get on along like friends. It

1:21:25

shook me in. And from that moment, we've

1:21:28

never had a crossword. Never

1:21:30

had a crossword. To the point where I

1:21:32

actually forgot about this, that it happened, but Kev

1:21:35

put it in his book, wrote his book,

1:21:37

fitted up and fighting back. And he

1:21:40

put this chapter at the end about something that

1:21:42

happened with me. Now I'd forgotten about it for

1:21:44

years. And he met up with me when he

1:21:46

was first released on license. And he

1:21:48

said to me, can we meet up? I was a black cab

1:21:50

driver. So I met him and he said, I

1:21:53

want to put you in the book. He

1:21:57

said, what you did for me? I'd

1:22:00

forgotten. He went, you don't

1:22:02

remember the I went no, I don't. He said,

1:22:04

do you remember the scrap screws? I went, oh,

1:22:06

fucking hell, yeah. So this

1:22:09

story, apparently, this was what did kid

1:22:11

said in here couldn't get his head around at the school

1:22:13

did this. So when was we would

1:22:15

been we've been doing a lot of work with Kevin,

1:22:17

I say work. I mean, keeping

1:22:19

a lid on people in a unit. What? Why

1:22:22

didn't I'm at all the time working with him having a

1:22:24

laugh of him? You know, they need something done. You got

1:22:26

to say no sometimes, but it's a way of saying no.

1:22:28

Yeah. You know, there's no you fucking

1:22:30

can't already. I'm really sorry about this, Kev. But the

1:22:32

answer is no. Yeah. I'll get you put an application

1:22:35

and then you can refuse to

1:22:37

the no. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so

1:22:39

we did a lot of work with him and all the officers

1:22:41

were putting in the same direction in the unit. So I'm sitting

1:22:43

there like this. And we're waiting for Kev. Kev's

1:22:46

going up on his colt case to

1:22:48

come back from the old Bailey. And he's being brought back

1:22:50

by I think we've been brought up by scrubs

1:22:52

screws. And

1:22:55

I'm sitting there. So can you bang him

1:22:57

up when he gets back? I mean, yeah, I guess I'm saying that and

1:22:59

he comes back and he

1:23:01

scrubs screws. One of them is fucking built up, big ass

1:23:03

and the other one's like a bodybuilder and

1:23:05

they're bullying him. They say for

1:23:07

him for easy handcuffs. And

1:23:09

my my principal officer, PO Spence,

1:23:12

he's gone George, follow him like

1:23:15

this and cares waiting to

1:23:18

go. So I follow him. I couldn't get any

1:23:20

and I couldn't get involved because he

1:23:22

wasn't my prison. It was their prison at the

1:23:24

time. So I'm watching them in

1:23:27

the strip search area and they fucking

1:23:29

bullied him. They did wind him up, you

1:23:31

know, laughing while they're strip searching

1:23:33

and all this like and nudging him. And

1:23:37

I never said if he was in scrubs,

1:23:39

we'd fucking batty. And so Kev said, yeah,

1:23:42

take these handcuffs on and they'll say what

1:23:44

you do. And they did. Bang,

1:23:46

bang, bang. One was knocked out. One was

1:23:48

putting his ass. So we've had a

1:23:50

junk cave. But he didn't put our new straits in to us.

1:23:52

So we had to wrap him up, put

1:23:54

him down the block. And then what

1:23:56

happened was I went upstairs to write

1:23:58

an incident report. about what I'd

1:24:01

seen. Now

1:24:04

I never, I mean this from the bottom of my

1:24:06

heart, I never thought anything of what I was doing.

1:24:09

I just wrote out what I fucking

1:24:11

saw, what these bastards did. So

1:24:14

I'm writing it, and as I'm writing it, about

1:24:17

three or four scrub screws have appeared. I'm on my

1:24:19

own in the staff room. See a lot

1:24:21

of inmates, they don't know this shit going on between

1:24:23

staff. What you writing

1:24:25

there, mate? I'm

1:24:28

writing a fucking truth is what I'm writing. You bastards.

1:24:30

I said, we've done a lot of fucking work with

1:24:32

this geezer. I said he never kicks off. I

1:24:35

said bring all that bully boy shit here. I said we don't

1:24:37

do all that shit. So I'm like,

1:24:39

I'll carry on my, took the pen, like

1:24:43

this, and I'm like, fuck's sake. And

1:24:46

they went, you ain't fucking writing that if

1:24:48

you know what's good with you. And at that, it's

1:24:50

like the fucking cavalry. Yeah. About five or six Delmarsh

1:24:52

screws coming, big lads. And they came in and went,

1:24:54

oi, fucking slinger hook, leave

1:24:56

George alone. Like this. So I

1:24:59

wrote out the incident report. Basically, putting

1:25:01

down that Kev was provoked, was

1:25:04

bullied, whatever. Because they were

1:25:06

looking at giving him GBH for five years. Yeah,

1:25:09

yeah. Not the geezer out. So, and they

1:25:11

wanted me to lie. Scrub

1:25:14

screws wanted me to lie. So I

1:25:16

didn't lie. And a lot of screws

1:25:18

who are watching this will have

1:25:21

a go at me. I couldn't give two fucks.

1:25:23

I couldn't give two fucks by the way I

1:25:25

work. And

1:25:28

I stood up in the adjudication and he

1:25:30

couldn't believe it. Screw.

1:25:33

Fair play. To me,

1:25:35

they weren't screwed. They were just fucks. Yeah. Just

1:25:37

because you got to wear a white shirt. I'm

1:25:39

not having that. So

1:25:42

he never forgot it. So

1:25:44

later on, I'm in Whitemore and

1:25:47

I'm hating life. What year

1:25:49

were you roughly talking here? 97.

1:25:51

Okay. Right. So it's about three years later. Why did you choose to go

1:25:53

to Whitemore if you knew it was gonna be like? Yeah,

1:25:56

I've just done nine months training as a PEI. I

1:25:58

just wanted to start my life. as a

1:26:00

PE instructor. I was getting a public expense move,

1:26:03

cheap housing. I

1:26:05

should never have done it worse. But then you

1:26:07

know, those learning life and probably the making of

1:26:09

me in some parts. But I

1:26:11

hated the area. I hated the fucking prison.

1:26:14

You've never had that banter that we had in

1:26:16

Belmarsh and that, you know. And so

1:26:19

anyway, I'm there about a year just

1:26:21

over at Whitemore. I still fucking hate it. And

1:26:23

I'm sitting in the office. So you've

1:26:25

got the weights from there, the sports all there and I'm

1:26:27

sitting in the office here. And

1:26:30

how long a year comes Kevin Lane? He's

1:26:32

been shipped to Whitemore, isn't he? He went,

1:26:35

God! I went, hello, Kev! I

1:26:38

never knew really what a big name he was with

1:26:40

all the other inmates. He's come in throwing

1:26:42

his hands around me. They were watching

1:26:44

from the weights from them, ain't he? All the,

1:26:47

you know, the big gangsters. They were watching Kevin.

1:26:50

They didn't really get on with me because I was one of them who

1:26:52

I didn't back down. So they

1:26:54

said, so Kev's gone, you

1:26:57

all right, George? I went, nah, I fucking

1:26:59

hate this place. Who's whining?

1:27:01

You're saying I'm going to get here? Like this.

1:27:04

And he named names. I'm not going to say the names. He

1:27:06

named names. They were big names. And he went,

1:27:09

well, leave that with me. I went, Kev, don't fucking

1:27:11

start. He went, oh, I'm running out of start fuck

1:27:13

all. He says, I've just gone

1:27:15

again. I know some words with people. He says, your

1:27:18

life's going to get better. He says, I remember

1:27:20

what you've done for me. It's like edge-cleasing the

1:27:22

line. He's gone.

1:27:24

He says, you reffing Sunday? I went, I am. Yeah. I

1:27:26

went, well, watch and see. Fuck

1:27:29

me. He was out there like a bullet in a china

1:27:31

shot. He was kicking everyone up in the air.

1:27:33

I mean, big players. Yeah. And they

1:27:36

were turning around and going, hi, Kev.

1:27:38

I was giving fouls

1:27:40

and they were turning around and going, you fuck.

1:27:43

All right, George, no problem, mate. And

1:27:46

Kev looked at me and went, go, oh,

1:27:48

fucking hell, no life. So we've

1:27:50

been like that all

1:27:52

the time. We never ask anything

1:27:55

of each other, me and

1:27:57

Kev. He's a proper man's man, isn't he? massive

1:28:00

art on him. He has. A massive art on him.

1:28:02

He has. Yeah. And then on out there, go check

1:28:04

his book out. Absolutely. Yeah.

1:28:06

Any names that you've been in

1:28:09

prison with who were seriously dangerous?

1:28:12

Right. Right. So I can't say his name. Yeah.

1:28:14

I can't say his name, but what I will

1:28:16

say is he was the only

1:28:18

con where I used to think, please

1:28:22

God, let me get home. Let me get home off this

1:28:24

shift tonight. And he was

1:28:26

half my size and

1:28:28

he couldn't speak a word of English. And

1:28:31

the story was the old bill and did him over and we got,

1:28:33

we got briefed on the story.

1:28:36

It was at the time just after the 9 11. So

1:28:38

this fucking country

1:28:40

was going to be on a raid in every

1:28:42

house and all that. So they raided

1:28:44

a house. I think it was up in Manchester.

1:28:47

The old bill raised it and they couldn't believe

1:28:49

their luck. They found the number two Al-Qaeda of

1:28:51

Europe. Yeah. And this Giza

1:28:53

was nine stone piss went through. He

1:28:55

was nothing of him. He was trained.

1:28:57

I think it was about 30 years

1:28:59

of age. He was trained from six

1:29:01

years of age in the Afghan camps

1:29:04

to be a killing machine. Right. So

1:29:07

the old bill jumped him. He hit one old

1:29:09

bill in the groin. The old

1:29:11

bill, this what the old bill told us. He

1:29:13

couldn't move his leg for over half an hour. He knew

1:29:15

exactly the point to hit him in the pressure point. He

1:29:19

escaped. He wriggled out of the grip, ran down

1:29:21

the stairs in a townhouse. Could have got, could

1:29:23

have got out, looked in the

1:29:25

kitchen, saw the carving knife block, grabbed the carving knife to

1:29:27

go and kill all the old bill upstairs to save his

1:29:29

mates. Right. They had to pull

1:29:31

the knife through his end. They

1:29:34

said he never blinked. They

1:29:36

had to get it out through his end. So his hand was

1:29:38

split. He said he never blinked. So

1:29:41

they got into the old bill shop, stripped

1:29:43

him naked. You think, what can he do? Typical

1:29:46

British police. You know, not British police. I was

1:29:48

sorry, the way it said typical British.

1:29:51

Yeah. Right. You've got a sign for that.

1:29:55

Right. It's our nature. I've got

1:29:57

some of that, mate. So And

1:30:00

he snaps a copper in the eye with a pen So

1:30:03

every sort of second he

1:30:05

was a weapon, right? so

1:30:07

I'm a PE instructor in Bell Marsh

1:30:09

now and Guess what

1:30:11

whenever he has a legal visit right,

1:30:14

he's got to be taken to visits into a certain room and

1:30:17

Guess who's got to take him every time the

1:30:19

PE eyes because we're all the biggest fuckers and

1:30:21

we kick to take a man to a visit

1:30:24

crash out shield arms

1:30:26

of covers leg covers Is

1:30:29

that right? Chest cover Right,

1:30:32

so every and he's not nine stones, so he's kneeled down

1:30:35

He couldn't understanding is you have to bring his hand up behind

1:30:37

his head and he's just putting a little bit of tension And

1:30:40

smile at you And

1:30:43

this is where you see well, I have no ego I'm

1:30:46

shitting You're gonna do

1:30:48

something Please

1:30:50

don't kill me It's 20 past five.

1:30:52

I've only got 10 minutes So

1:30:55

and that was and I remember thinking

1:30:57

fucking I've been in with some really

1:30:59

horrible not horrible but tough Crazy

1:31:02

people charlie and people like I've

1:31:04

never been this scared Why? Because

1:31:07

there was no there was there

1:31:09

was no gray area boundaries. There was nothing

1:31:11

Yeah, okay He did not give two fucks

1:31:14

if there was 15 of you jumping

1:31:16

on his head His mission is to kill you

1:31:18

because you're a fucking infidel and that's the end of

1:31:20

it I don't give two fucks how

1:31:22

much you hurt me. I mean, yeah He

1:31:25

couldn't give two fucks. Yeah, so there was no fear

1:31:27

element with him Where's might get the other guys? I

1:31:29

think fuck me. I've got four fucking yeah, I've got

1:31:31

about 75 stone of fucking pei I've got me you've

1:31:33

got to flatten me. He couldn't give a fuck. Yeah.

1:31:35

Okay So there was no fear element What

1:31:38

is it like the reaction of other people

1:31:40

like someone him coming into a prison? What

1:31:43

was the reaction like from the other prison

1:31:45

cons knowing that he's coming in that do

1:31:47

they know who's coming in? Yeah, the word

1:31:49

goes around eventually. Okay, but it was by

1:31:52

the time I this is near the end while I

1:31:54

was on the knowledge doing Doing the knowledge so I

1:31:56

was coming to the end of my service the prison.

1:31:58

We've now had the the good Friday agreements, all

1:32:00

the IRA had gone. So I

1:32:02

was really, in a way, I wouldn't

1:32:04

call it blessed, but I could

1:32:07

see the difference between the IRA

1:32:09

network of terrorists and the

1:32:11

Al-Qaeda network of terrorists, compared to two.

1:32:13

So now we've got a lot of

1:32:15

Muslims inside the prison and they're

1:32:17

treating like hero. What's

1:32:21

happening in the prisons now? A lot of

1:32:23

people converting into Muslim. It

1:32:26

stops you getting allied, haven't you? You

1:32:29

do what you've got to do to survive. I mean, they'll

1:32:31

be wasting their time on people like Kev, Kevin Lane and

1:32:33

people like him. Kev's been on

1:32:36

the, on the pop, Ray's been on the podcast,

1:32:38

well, and Kev, but Kev did mention there that

1:32:40

they're trying to radicalise. Yeah. So

1:32:42

what is the only example? If you're weak, is

1:32:45

that what you're saying? If you're a weak con,

1:32:47

they want you in... But that, to be honest

1:32:49

with you, they could do that. They were doing

1:32:51

that when I was in, not radicalise, but use

1:32:53

your, your weapon. Yeah. You know, when I first

1:32:56

went to Belmarsh, an

1:32:58

auxiliary who was doing the campaign had got taken hostage

1:33:01

because someone was paying a debt to some gangsters. I won't

1:33:03

know their name, their names, but they were paying a debt

1:33:06

to some gangsters on the wing. So the gangsters said, right,

1:33:08

we want you to take our hostage and

1:33:10

your debt's cleared. You could do

1:33:12

that with debts anyway. Sexual favours with debts.

1:33:15

I've seen that done in Whitemore, you know?

1:33:17

So you could do it with debts. You

1:33:19

could do it with anything really. Their religion

1:33:22

is used for that. I understand that. But

1:33:24

the IRA used to do that. The

1:33:27

IRA, do you know what they were good at? They were

1:33:29

good at doing that to the prison chaplain. They

1:33:33

would put so much... I've seen

1:33:35

prison chaplains, Catholic chaplains, virtual nervous

1:33:37

breakdowns, because the IRA were on

1:33:39

them all the time to bring stuff in

1:33:41

for them and work for them and stuff

1:33:43

like that. What sort of weapons would be a maid

1:33:46

in prison that you come across? Most

1:33:49

of you get your knives and stuff, but a

1:33:51

weapon is that, isn't it?

1:33:53

A weapon is a jug with boiling

1:33:55

up water in it and a load of sugar. Have you seen that

1:33:57

used on people? Have you? Pull the skin off. So

1:34:00

someone's got hot water and they're whack sugar in it and what

1:34:02

the sugar just stick to burn. It used

1:34:04

to be the upplay. They don't do it now. They

1:34:06

feed at the door now. But you'd just be standing

1:34:08

there looking innocent and then the money

1:34:10

wants to get to this kind of blub. And

1:34:13

that's it. It's just like pouring acid in your

1:34:15

face. So if you're a

1:34:17

black person, it's all the skin turns white. It

1:34:19

just pulls all your pigment off your skin. I've

1:34:22

seen it done. You know, I've seen, like

1:34:24

I say, I've seen people hurt

1:34:26

themselves with, I met one shift. I was in

1:34:28

the shift and again, he called me up. He's

1:34:31

one of 11 brothers. We had 11 brothers

1:34:34

in the prison. All in the same time.

1:34:37

All for different crimes. Just

1:34:39

the family of criminals. 11 of them. And one of them called

1:34:41

me up and went, can I have a word? I went, yeah,

1:34:44

all right. It's just a bang out. So I was a

1:34:46

banger and I want to go home. And he goes, I

1:34:48

just want to show you something. I went, all right. Yes.

1:34:50

I go. He was all right. And I spoke. And

1:34:53

he had about seven razor blades there. And he went,

1:34:55

what's this? I thought he was going to show

1:34:57

me a trick or something. He

1:35:02

went, what's that thing about me? That's

1:35:05

what I did. There

1:35:07

are normal persons who go,

1:35:10

fuck's sake. It's right in the middle of

1:35:13

a shift. I've got

1:35:15

to fuck around now getting you

1:35:17

into hospital. All right. He went,

1:35:20

just fancied it on board. Oh, man. It's

1:35:23

just a mental health. It's mad, isn't it? I've

1:35:26

got to tell you, I would

1:35:28

be remiss if I didn't show you one of

1:35:30

the most famous stories in Belmarsh. One. Which

1:35:33

is the Jam Dog. The Jam Dog.

1:35:35

The Jam Dog. Okay. All

1:35:37

right. Yeah. And so

1:35:39

this story is a true story. And I'll mention

1:35:41

the other. There was an inmate who was involved

1:35:44

in helping me with it. His

1:35:46

name is Mickey Guilfoyle, who's a

1:35:48

world famous boxing trainer. So

1:35:52

Mickey Guilfoyle was our cleaner down at

1:35:54

the gym. And

1:35:56

Belmarsh sent me, because I was in charge

1:35:58

of the White Room. me on a course

1:36:01

to do nutrition at Westminster

1:36:04

University. So fair enough, I've done

1:36:06

all the nutrition because I was running bodybuilding classes at

1:36:09

Belmarsh with qualifications and everything.

1:36:11

So it's

1:36:13

Friday and it's late afternoon

1:36:16

and I'm going on leave the next day to go

1:36:18

to Turkey for two weeks. And

1:36:21

this geezer's talking to

1:36:23

Mick and Mick says, George, you're

1:36:25

a diet man, haven't you? I mean, yeah,

1:36:28

got a geezer and a changer, once I told

1:36:30

you. He's

1:36:34

getting out or something, you see, he

1:36:36

wants to fucking lose weight, drastic, lively.

1:36:40

I'm off into it, I was like, I don't need all this,

1:36:42

send me a head scone, I'm on the beach. He

1:36:45

went, I'll help him out like this. I went,

1:36:47

what's it like? He said, he's alright, yeah, he

1:36:49

said, bit of a lightweight, like he said, but

1:36:51

he's alright. I said, come on,

1:36:53

let's have a laugh. I said, bring him in like

1:36:55

this. So this is completely off the

1:36:57

top of my head, this way. So he comes

1:36:59

in and he goes, alright, gov, salt

1:37:03

me out, yeah. I went, what do you mean salt

1:37:05

you out? He went, well, look, I'm out in about

1:37:07

fucking six weeks. He said, I'm on a visit. It's

1:37:09

just a mum, missus, says to me, look

1:37:12

at him, fucking arms. He says,

1:37:14

big chest, do you fucking

1:37:16

flabby. Don't you go down the gym,

1:37:19

you keep telling me down the gym, fuck this, don't you. He

1:37:21

says, you put it right on me, gov. He says, I had

1:37:23

a visit, so I couldn't believe it. He said, can you help

1:37:25

me lose weight? You're

1:37:27

talking drastically, yeah. I went, you are limited

1:37:29

time. He went, mate, he says, I'll

1:37:32

do whatever you say. I said,

1:37:34

every boss. I said, they all say, I'll do whatever you

1:37:37

say. I said, till you tell them something

1:37:39

that is cutting edge. And then when you tell

1:37:41

them cutting edge, they go, I'm not doing that.

1:37:43

I'm actually on it. He went, mate,

1:37:46

I'll do whatever you tell me. I'll do it right now.

1:37:48

He says, I'll be right on it and I won't change.

1:37:52

I went, right. It's a new

1:37:54

diet out in America. I said,

1:37:57

and it is going all over the country.

1:37:59

It's going. I said you ain't heard of

1:38:01

it because you've been nuts, but it's fucking mental. Right

1:38:04

here I went, it's the jam diet. They

1:38:07

went, fucking jam diet? I mean, fuck it. I

1:38:09

mean, there you go. I said, typical, uneducated person.

1:38:11

I said, typical response, jam diet, he's doing it.

1:38:13

He don't want it enough. He went, well, tell

1:38:15

me about it. I went, right. I

1:38:18

said, each body, I said, and it's given to your

1:38:20

biogenetics. I said, I'm making all this up on the

1:38:22

spot. Give it to your biogenetics,

1:38:24

of course. I said, each body has got its own

1:38:26

pH system. I said, that's to neutralize acid. I

1:38:29

said, now, what does acid do? I said, if I

1:38:31

got a pound of fat like that, and I poured

1:38:33

acid on it, I said, what would

1:38:35

happen to that fat? He went, melt it. Right.

1:38:39

I said, your body, by holding onto

1:38:41

so much fat, has not got enough acid in it. I

1:38:44

said, you've actually got a pH system that

1:38:46

is not letting the acid work. It's

1:38:50

like a light bulb gone on it. I

1:38:52

get it. Yeah, go on, tell him all. I went,

1:38:54

right, so what you've got to do is, I said, so there's your

1:38:56

system, you've got to get the actual level of

1:38:58

your acid. I said, you've got to do that. I get the acid level

1:39:01

up. I said, so that this is neutralized. Now,

1:39:03

the acid can do its job. Go

1:39:05

around your body, burning fat. You

1:39:07

can burn fat at rest. Mate,

1:39:12

that's fucking amazing. How do I do it? Obviously, if

1:39:14

you're on the air, they'll be written down, and fucking

1:39:16

you'd have all tables in front of you. I

1:39:18

said, we can't do that. I

1:39:20

said, you've got to eat as much fucking jam

1:39:23

as you can get your hands off. He went,

1:39:25

just jam. I went, mate, you've got

1:39:28

to buy jam, chore jam, borrow jam. I

1:39:30

said, don't give a fuck how you get it. You've

1:39:32

got to be shoveling that shit down your face all

1:39:35

day. I said, as much as you can fucking do.

1:39:38

I said, and you will watch. It will just

1:39:40

drop off you. Oh,

1:39:42

mate, thanks, God. This is fucking, I can't fucking wait to

1:39:44

start. You know what I mean? You want to do diet?

1:39:46

I've got to really do it. I

1:39:49

never, I honestly thought you'd go back to the wing and have

1:39:52

a second thought. I've gone, I've fucked off. I've gone to Turkey.

1:39:55

I've come back two weeks. I'm in

1:39:57

the gym in the morning and Mickey sitting there pissing himself out of it.

1:40:00

make a gilfel about Jim Alderley. I

1:40:02

went, oh no he went that fucking

1:40:04

geezer's coming down here this morning. I went, what

1:40:06

geezer? I went, it's gone. Yeah. He

1:40:09

went, don't you remember the jam buyer? I

1:40:12

went, he never. He went mate he's

1:40:14

on my wing you said he's a fucking headache

1:40:16

he said he was going around people's doors let's

1:40:18

have a bit of your jam mate. Sultist had

1:40:20

some jam, going up the up plate, put a

1:40:22

bit of extra jam on me rice pudding with

1:40:24

him. Jam jam jam. He said all he was

1:40:27

fucking eating was jam. I went, Mick

1:40:29

what's he like? He went, you ain't

1:40:31

zim George. I'm just asking you where you're

1:40:33

sitting. I went, I'm fucking

1:40:35

hell, what's he like? I'm in

1:40:38